Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => NARCISSUS => Topic started by: Gerdk on September 17, 2010, 08:31:00 PM
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Ready at last - here is the first autumn-flowering daff from the Northern Hemisphere
Narcissus elegans - from Morocco
Gerd
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It certainly lives up to its name; what a fine start to the new season.
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Super Gerdk §
Does Germany have a sub tropical climate now ??
Not yet flowered in south of France ??? :o ;D
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Sehr elegant, Gerd !! :o ;D
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Thanks for the kind comments!
Super Gerdk §
Does Germany have a sub tropical climate now ??
Not yet flowered in south of France ??? :o ;D
Fred,
Quite the opposite - it's cold, rainy and windy here since weeks :(. The flower is the result of a warming cable and after that a first watering and decreasing temperatures at the beginning of September.
Gerd
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My first autumn daffodil flowering yesterday; N. cavanillesii (N. humilis) from the Archibalds. I went out this morning to take a better picture of it and found that a mice must have been admiring it in the night.... :'(
I've got the flower in an egg cup on the desk so I can at least enjoy the very delicate scent. I told my youngest son that it was a daffodil and he says "Of course it is Mum." Which is teenager speak for "Don't be so silly!"
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Gail,
What a pity! It looked so pretty the day before.
Is it difficult to make them flower? I have had mine for 3 years without any flowers - I still hope for flowers this season.
Poul
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I only bought mine this autumn so can claim no credit for getting it to flower. Indeed I have had N. broussonetii for 3 years and it still hasn't flowered....
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Gerd, at which temperatures (day/night) are you growing N. elegans?
Thanks, Hans
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Gerd, at which temperatures (day/night) are you growing N. elegans?
Thanks, Hans
Hans, Please have a look at
Re: Narcissus miniatus and others - Reply #56 of Oct 21, 2008
I still use the same method - planned to change it in order to use
less energy and space but always had so much other plans.
Gerd
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Gerd, I read the post and have put my N. elegans (dry) in a warm 25C-40C greenhouse until the end of August. Then I put it in an unheated greenhouse, with additional heating once the temperature dropped below 10C. Daily temperatures now range from 15C to 20C/25C depending on weather. Leaves have developped immediately. But my question is: At which temperatures do you grow it in september and oktober?
Thanks again, HAns
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Sorry, Hans.
I gave (give) them the same treatment like you do. Additional heating only by a small fan heater when the temperatures drop below + 3 ° Celsius.
Don't you have flowers?
I would be glad if you'll tell us the way you treat the bulbs during the warming periode!
Gerd
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So not warm during september and august! Ik kept the bulb dry in my succulent greenhouse with temperatures (day) between 25 and 35 (40C) during june, july and august. After watering by the end of august and putting it in my shaded greenhouse (10-20C) it showed its leaves. Hopefully flowers in a few weeks..
Hans
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Sorry, I meant: September and October!
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Wonderful plants and pictures Gerd and Gail - here first of the autumn flowering daffodils is Narcissus x perezlarae
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Lovely Hans, is that a wild hybrid?
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superb Hans !
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Wonderful plants and pictures Gerd and Gail - here first of the autumn flowering daffodils is Narcissus x perezlarae
Until seeing this thread, I was unaware of such things as tiny fall blooming Narcissus, they're charming.
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Wonderful plants and pictures Gerd and Gail - here first of the autumn flowering daffodils is Narcissus x perezlarae
Gorgeous Hans.
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Here is an update of autumn-flowering daffs from today
1. Narcissus elegans
2. Narcissus miniatus - with a slight yellow-orange tint - Spanish origin
3. Narcissus miniatus - from Crete
4. Narcissus x perezlarae - the natural hybrid between N. miniatus and
N. cavanillesii
5. Narcissus cavanillesii mauretanicus - the Moroccon form of cavanillesii
Gerd
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- I failed to add a second pic of N. cavanillesii mauretanicus -
here it is!
Gerd
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Excellent stuff Gerd, well grown.
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Very beautiful. You certainly manage these species well Gerd.
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Thanks Gail, Fred, Mark and David!
Superb plants and great pictures, Gerd!
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Wonderful Gerd! What is the scent like on these?
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Thank you alltogether for kind remarks!
Gail: There is not much scent today (only around 10 ° C) - I'm not able to smell anything besides powerful odours - unfortunatley most of the flowers not.
My wife did the test for me - she told that there was a slight scent from Narcissus elegans and a stronger one from Narcissus cavanillesii (she said reminded her of vanilla).
Sorry this is not much help -
I'm sure they all are scented, perhaps someone with a better developed sensivity can help?
Gerd
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Sorry this is not much help -
I'm sure they all are scented, perhaps someone with a better developed sensivity can help?
Gerd I think I am not of great help and doubt I have a better developed sensivity (I had ignored the wonderful scent of P.sickenbergeri for years until Oron mentioned it recently ::)), I did not note any scent in N. perezlarae and N. miniatus - but it was windy and to many nervous bees around to come very close to the flowers.
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P.sickenbergeri =Pancratium sickenbergeri , I assume?
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Sorry this is not much help -
I'm sure they all are scented, perhaps someone with a better developed sensivity can help?
Gerd I think I am not of great help and doubt I have a better developed sensivity (I had ignored the wonderful scent of P.sickenbergeri for years until Oron mentioned it recently ::)), I did not note any scent in N. perezlarae and N. miniatus - but it was windy and to many nervous bees around to come very close to the flowers.
Thank you Hans - I recommend a ' sniff party ' during a calm sunny day ;)
and a rerun at night - (because Narcissus viridiflorus is pollinated by moths!
Gerd
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P.sickenbergeri =Pancratium sickenbergeri , I assume?
;) - si.
Gerd, will try to organize such a party the next days. ;)
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Thank you Hans - I recommend a ' sniff party ' during a calm sunny day ;)
and a rerun at night - (because Narcissus viridiflorus is pollinated by moths!
Gerd
Followed my own suggestion and visited my daffs in the dark -
and I was pleasantly surprised. All daffodils in flower were remarkably scented - most powerful Narcissus cavanillesii.
I can only recommend spending more time in the garden at night -
not only for slug hunting! ;)
Gerd
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Excellent Gerd, perhaps we ought to have night-time flower shows so that more people could appreciate them...
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I recommend a ' sniff party ' during a calm sunny day ;)
and a rerun at night - (because Narcissus viridiflorus is pollinated by moths!
Gerd
Gerd, you are right, during the day hardly any scent was there, in the evening all narcissus had a good scent!
Here some pics from today, this type of narcissus do fine ,except Narcissus cavanillesii - there is no one visible whyever ::).
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Hans, Thank you for confirmation! - and beautiful pics!
Narcissus cavanillesii is somewhat later than the others - maybe they will appear soon!
Gerd
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Three little beauties Hans !
They simply look superb in their settings.
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I am SOoooooooooo envious... the autumn- flowering narcissus do not do terribly well with us. :( :-X :'(
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Thanks Gerd, Luc and Maggi!
Maggi, I have similar problems here with Erythronium, Trillium... ;)
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Here are some pics from my autumn flowering daffodils -
1. most of the flowering ones
2. Narcissus miniatus of Mallorcan origin
3. Narcissus miniatus from Cadiz
- note the different petal size
4. Cadiz form - the whole pot
5. Narcissus miniatus with a slight orange tint
Gerd
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Fascinating pictures Gerd, thank you.
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So very beautiful, Gerd. I am very jealous!
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superb Gerd !
Today, in Corsica, Narcissus serotinus (miniatus) on the road...
Gerd, is it really N. miniatus now ??
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Thank you, Gail and Maggi
superb Gerd !
Today, in Corsica, Narcissus serotinus (miniatus) on the road...
Gerd, is it really N. miniatus now ??
Now I am jelous too - what a wonderful roadside vegetation!
miniatus and serotinus are quite different - the separation of the two species was represented in 2005 by Donnison-Morgan, Koopowitz, Zonneveld and Howe. Because I'm not a taxonomist I can't tell anything about the acceptance of the new name.
If there are early flowering N. papyraceus in Corsica it would be worth to look for hybrids - like Oro did in Israel!
Gerd
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Fantastic picture Fred - how wonderful to see such flowers by the roadside!
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Splendid all. Gerd, what a diversity. Fred bon voyage et merci
Dom
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I wonder if these could be grown outside in parts of New Zealand?
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Gerd
That's a super display, i wonder how you keep it so tidy and clean...
When i see such displays I'm embarrassed to show mine..my pots are practically one on top of the other.... ;)
Do you know the origin of the M. orange, its a beauty and grows well with me.
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So very beautiful, Gerd. I am very jealous!
Me too. Many thanks Gerd.
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Congratulations Gerd, that really is tidy.
As a non-expert and comparing Gerd's pic of his Narcissus miniatus Mallorcan form with his Cadiz form it's hard to believe that they are the same species.
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Gerd,
A wonderful display, really enjoyed looking back over it.
Paddy
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I wonder if these could be grown outside in parts of New Zealand?
I'm growing serotinus/miniatus outside here, Anthony. If that is any help?
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I wonder if these could be grown outside in parts of New Zealand?
I'm growing serotinus/miniatus outside here, Anthony. If that is any help?
Not really Paul as you get extremes that are not known in NZ. I know some parts of NZ have a Mediterranean climate, such as Hawkes Bay, which would be ideal. South Western Australia would be the nearest equivalent to the Med.
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Thanks for the additional compliments!
- but ' tidy and clean ' ???? - only a few spots in the whole garden!
Gerd
Do you know the origin of the M. orange, its a beauty and grows well with me.
Oron, I'm glad that the 'orange' miniatus does well - the origin is
Andalucia, between Chiclana and Medina Sidonia - a place which exists no longer due to excessive road construction.
Gerd
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Superb collection Gerd !! :o :o :o
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I can only agree - superb!
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Oron, I'm glad that the 'orange' miniatus does well - the origin is
Andalucia, between Chiclana and Medina Sidonia - a place which exists no longer due to excessive road construction.
Gerd
Gerd, thank you for this information.
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Oron, you're welcome!
There are some 'new' daffodils in flower now
1. - 3. Narcissus elegans f. auranticoronatus
4. the tube of Narcissus elegans - from Jebel Zerhoun, Morocco for comparismn
5. Narcissus serotinus (s.str.)
Gerd
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Lovely Gerd, you certainly grow them well.
Still waiting for my Narcissus cavanillesii to be delivered from Wrexham, don't know why I bothered now :(
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Superb grown Narcissus, Gerd!
Here two more in flower, Narcissus viridiflorus and Narcissus miniatus with larger flowers from a small island of the balearic archipelago.
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I love N. viridiflorus and it's perfume :)
welldone hans and Gerd
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Lovely display Gerd, Fred and Hans!
Here it is still summer with 30C+ ::):-\
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Thanks again, alltogether!
Hans, indeed a spectacular form of miniatus and congratulations for viridiflorus flowers!
Gerd
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Thanks Fred, Miriam and Gerd.
Yesterday I found some N. miniatus along the roadside, they were a bit damaged by heavy rain.
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I always get one or two flowers in the pot bought as Narcissus serotinus.
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Just two pics from today (it's rainy, windy and around + 6 ° C)
1. Narcissus miniatus x tazetta - a gem
2. Narcissus miniatus from Crete - with unusual propeller petals
Gerd
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Just two pics from today (it's rainy, windy and around + 6 ° C)
1. Narcissus miniatus x tazetta - a gem
2. Narcissus miniatus from Crete - with unusual propeller petals
Gerd
1. seconded
2. wow
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At long last my bulb of Narcissus cavanillesii was delivered today and is now potted up. Took an angry Email to get it though.
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David,
Thanks and congratulations! Please keep us informed about the growth of your new daff.
Gerd
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Gerd more lovely ones,a joy to see.
David perhaps on reflection your angry email should have asked for your money back. Good luck.
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Gerd more lovely ones,a joy to see.
David perhaps on reflection your angry email should have asked for your money back. Good luck.
Tony, I'll be pleased if I get a leaf.
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One shot of Narcissus deficiens blooming from seed for the first time.
Simple and elegant.
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Very cool little plants. I wonder if there is a botanical key to the autumn bloomers, lots of them look rather similar; cute, but similar.
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It seems the time for autumn flowering daffodils is nearly over -
but the viridiflorus hybrid shown in pic no. 1 and 2 is just opening. According to size and flowering time I am almost sure one parent is viridiflorus - but the other one?
No. 3 - After that I can't resist to show a miniatus - tazetta hybrid again, followed by no. 4 N. serotinus s. str.
- and no. 5 - a large flowering form of N. miniatus from Crete
Gerd
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Very cool little plants. I wonder if there is a botanical key to the autumn bloomers, lots of them look rather similar; cute, but similar.
Mark, You will find a key with most of the autumn flowering daffodils in
' Narcissus - A guide to wild daffodils ' by John W. Blanchard
and in
' Flora Vascular de Andalucía Occidental ' by Valdes et al. (editores) - in Spanish -
Recent changes (f. i. miniatus/serotinus) aren't mentioned there!
Gerd
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I'm wondering what the lots of them are? There are basically three: viridiflorus; serotinus/miniatus and humulis(or cavanillesii) and they couldn't be more different.
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Always the teacher Anthony.
Gerd, thanks for your useful answer, I'll keep an eye out for those books.
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Always the teacher Anthony.
Why do I get the impression that's not a compliment Mark? ::)
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Just as late as the viridiflorus parent -
here is Narcissus x alleniae, the natural hybrid between Narcissus viridiflorus and N. miniatus.
This clone is very near to viridiflorus - there are also some around which are similar to miniatus.
Gerd
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Just as late as the viridiflorus parent -
here is Narcissus x alleniae, the natural hybrid between Narcissus viridiflorus and N. miniatus.
This clone is very near to viridiflorus - there are also some around which are similar to miniatus.
Gerd
Oh my, that's a cool color, cool as a cucumber! Very nice plants, great photographs Gerd.
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Fantastic gerd !!!
Never seen it before, .
Crazy colour and superb pictures, congratulations :o
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Lovely Gerd
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one of the most beautiful natural crosses, thank you Gerd!. :o
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Thank you alltogether - it was my pleasure to show these pics!
Gerd
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I love your green flowers, Gerd!
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What fascinating flowers and superb photos Gerd
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Gerd, superb plants and great pics!
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Would there be anyone who grows Narcissus elegans x Narissus serotinus (not N. miniatus), I would like to get a couple of bulbs of this hybrid....
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Here is a Narcissus tazetta var. orcholeucus from Sardinia, look at the corona....
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Here is a Narcissus tazetta var. orcholeucus from Sardinia, look at the corona....
Fine plant, Rafa. Looked for the translation of ochroleucus - it was
pale yellow (and it is)!
Gerd
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Gerd, what do you think about this corona, in 3 lobuled parts, it remeber me serotinous group...
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Gerd, what do you think about this corona, in 3 lobuled parts, it remeber me serotinous group...
Sorry Rafa, Didn't note the shape initially. Unfortunately I can't compare
your plant with 'normal' N. tazetta.
Indeed the corona looks very similar to those of a tazetta-serotinus (miniatus) hybrid - received from Oron - see picture!
Is your plant fertile?
Gerd
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Definitively is the same plant, and it's not fertile.
I dedicate to you and Prof. Theo Sanders the following pictures. By the way, horses were very kind with me ;D
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N. miniatus (I prefer to use N. deficiens).
Note: Notice the ugly houses distroying the very few places in Cádiz of all these autumn species.
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Some late N. viridiflorus
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Rafa:
We call the Mc-Mansions here in the USA. (As in McDonalds I think)
Take down one old quaint home and put up three with no green space.
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Totally agree Arnold... the most funny think it's that we also saw a big and ugly building called something like "Techologycal Center of Tourism and Life Quality" sorry for free transalation ;)
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Rafa:
We call the Mc-Mansions here in the USA. (As in McDonalds I think)
Take down one old quaint home and put up three with no green space.
Here in Northeastern USA, the term McMansion typically refers to ridiculously supersized houses on very small lots, often as you suggest Arnold, replacing a perfectly fine smaller-size older house. Enjoy these beauties:
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&expIds=17259,17315,23628,23670,26474,26761,26849,26869,27022,27126,27520,27698,27740,27744&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=mcmansion&cp=9&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=BenqTKWvOoSaOuPgqLwK&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQsAQwAQ&biw=1280&bih=809 (http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&expIds=17259,17315,23628,23670,26474,26761,26849,26869,27022,27126,27520,27698,27740,27744&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=mcmansion&cp=9&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=BenqTKWvOoSaOuPgqLwK&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQsAQwAQ&biw=1280&bih=809)
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Some late N. viridiflorus
Congratulations Rafa, you were not too late obviously!
I do hope very much it will not be too late for the future fate of these
unique plants of the Spanish flora.
Gerd
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Rafa:
We call the Mc-Mansions here in the USA. (As in McDonalds I think)
Take down one old quaint home and put up three with no green space.
Here in Scotland they plant homes on perfectly good farm land. I drive past one such estate on my way to work. It has a sign advertising the housing estate, which is named "Royal Meadows". I suspect the irony is wasted on the vandals that have destroyed a lovely green meadow. Alas, most people nowadays don't want gardens. I've found that out taking prospective buyers round ours. They glaze over when I point out the pergola and wisteria. Bring back high rise flats and keep the countryside green!
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I do wonder where the food in the future will be grown when most of the really good arable land is under houses or industrial sites.
Happens here too - all very short sighted.
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Wasn't it a member of Scandinavian royalty, on visiting Scotland shortly after the war, commented that any land unsuitable for golf courses had been put to good agricultural use? I wonder what he would say now?
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The place where I took these pictures is probably the last genetic-evolutive lab from autumn narcissi in Europe. Apart some interesting plants like Drosophyllum lusitanicus, Mandragora autumnalis, Leucojum, Gladiolus italicus, Crocus clusii it grows N. viridiflorus, N. deficiens, N. cavanillesii, N. x alleniae, N. x perez larae. In addition I saw some N. x perez-larae setting seeds, although more studies are needed it is possible N. piifontianus is growing there as well.
This place (12 hectares approx) has zero legal protection, and is unique in Europe.
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This place (12 hectares approx) has zero legal protection, and is unique in Europe.
So do you think it would be possible to buy it Rafa, as a reserve?
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:) if I only could! ::) I suggest a collect in SRGC members ;D to buy these fields and make "The SRGC Autumn Daffodil Sanctuary"
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Well, for such a significant area perhaps we could organise an international appeal to raise funds through the various horticultural and botanical networks including SRGC :)
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Superb pictures, Rafa!
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thank you friends,
Fortunately this huge crisis stopped illegal developpment, but I visited another pupulation of N. cavanillesii and N.x perez-larae, (distroyed) and not far from it, they are planning to destroy a wild beach plenty of endemics and also autumn narcissus species like N. papyraceus. They planning to build ANOTHER Macro-Hotel-Golf etc... somthing honestly really neccesary, isn't it? There is not other posible place.... you can sign against this abssurd poryect here:
http://www.salvarelpalmar.es/
http://www.mirandoplantas.com/2010/09/el-ladrillo-ataca-de-nuevo-nuestros_23.html here it is explained (in spanish)
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and not far from it, they are planning to destroy a wild beach plenty of endemics and also autumn narcissus species like N. papyraceus. They planning to build ANOTHER Macro-Hotel-Golf etc... somthing honestly really neccesary, isn't it? There is not other posible place.... you can sign against this abssurd poryect here:http://www.salvarelpalmar.es/
http://www.mirandoplantas.com/2010/09/el-ladrillo-ataca-de-nuevo-nuestros_23.html here it is explained (in spanish)
... so did I - this is the least one can do against the incredible destruction of natures last refuges!
Gerd
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Thank you Gerd, much appreciated
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Gets in under the Autumn wire
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I don't understand many things but I trust Rafa, so I've signed it !
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I don't understand many things but I trust Rafa, so I've signed it !
Quite so, that's why I did too!
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...... and so did I.
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Yo también!
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thank you very much,
It's high time for people over here, to realise that Spain's touristic assets is to be found amongst landscapes, wilderness, gastronomy.... and not hotel-golf which are absurd in our country.
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Rafa, I also know some Golf courses ( Sperone in Corsica for example ) which are natural reserves for wildlife, with lots of well protected plants and animals.
It depends how they manage the area...
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Rafa, thanks for the links - here we have a similar problem with a new Golfcourse which some people want to build - Convention International Ramsar recommend not to build it (http://www.abc.es/20101117/local-baleares/ramsar-201011171240.html )- As I know actually it is stopped but the works are avanced with or without permits here a link: http://www.gobmallorca.com/sonbosc/sonbosceng.html
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Non of Narcissus cantabricus in flower so far, but first Narcissus papyraceus are glistening in the sun.
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oh, very beautiful! it smell fine or like a goat pee?
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Superb Hans, It's like spring in winter .....
Perfect shape and white
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Glistening is the right word Hans ! I need sunglasses to look at it... 8) :o
Great shot too !
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Superb photo, Hans.
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I'm still wondering what the flowers smell like... :D or :P
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I'm still wondering what the flowers smell like... :D or :P
Of Narcissus papyraceus ? The scent is wonderful! Very heavy and too much for some and even I don't care to be trapped in too warm a room with it, but in moderation it is scrumptious..... rich and heady!
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I was referring to Rafa's colorful question about scent:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6023.msg175509#msg175509
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Thanks a lot! - it smells fine but very, very intense, so it is better to keep a distance. ;)
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Narcissus cantabricus 'Silver Palate'
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There are two diferent smell in N. papyraceus. There is one that smell very strong and we use to call it "meados de zorra", "meados de cabra" there are many names... "meados" means pee.
Although colour or smell are not very important in taxonomy, is important if we think in the pollinators. N. papyraceus and N. polyanthos smell bad, and N. panizzianus smell good but they are the same species for many people...
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Doesn't scent come into the species botanical equation?
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The only colour in my greenhouse just now.
Grown from seed over 20 years ago as Narcissus bulbocodium hybrid, it flowers regularly, increases well and sets seed. It is a bit later and shorter this year as I did not manage to water my bulbs early enough.
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Great to have some colour despite the weather conditions isn't it Roma !!
Here, Narcissus "Camoro" is flowering while it's -7°C outside ! ;D
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Doesn't scent come into the species botanical equation?
I don't think so, at least in Narcissus...
Beautiful hybrid Roma, and also your "Camoro" Luc. Here in my green house there are just starting to bloom N. albidus foliosus and N. bulbocodium var. nivalis!! it is mad!
By the way, in few days it will bloom Narcissius sp# SF110, it seems any notrh african bulbocodium.. could any body mail me with any data collection.
Thank you in advance
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By the way, in few days it will bloom Narcissius sp# SF110, it seems any notrh african bulbocodium.. could any body mail me with any data collection.
Thank you in advance
I have this collection from Morocco under the name N. albidus ssp albidus
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Great to have some colour despite the weather conditions isn't it Roma !!
Here, Narcissus "Camoro" is flowering while it's -7°C outside ! ;D
Luc very lovely,I think you must have some heat on,mine are flat on the soil in the greenhouse!!
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By the way, in few days it will bloom Narcissius sp# SF110, it seems any notrh african bulbocodium.. could any body mail me with any data collection.
Thank you in advance
I have this collection from Morocco under the name N. albidus ssp albidus
So have I - said to be from Middle Atlas. However, the leaves of mine are not yet above ground. SF are Mike Salmon & Mark Fillan.
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Great to have some colour despite the weather conditions isn't it Roma !!
Here, Narcissus "Camoro" is flowering while it's -7°C outside ! ;D
Luc very lovely,I think you must have some heat on,mine are flat on the soil in the greenhouse!!
They're in the frostfree veranda Tony : +3°C at the moment. ;)
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Thanks to Roma, Arnold and Luc for the pics. I have one bulb of Camoro yet to show, and I can't say I blame it for staying under the soil at the moment.
Wonder if I quickly amend my Santa list and add a frost free veranda he'll be able to get it down our chimney?
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Luc, Gerry, Thank you for the info.
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A late Narcissus x alleniae - very close to N. viridiflorus.
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Wonder if I quickly amend my Santa list and add a frost free veranda he'll be able to get it down our chimney?
David - Ask him to leave it at the front door.
johnw
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;D
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Need to find an antipodean source of these autumn joys! 8)
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Need to find an antipodean source of these autumn joys! 8)
Talk to Lesley! You need to check with MAF and then order from Marcus Harvey http://www.hillviewrareplants.com/ (http://www.hillviewrareplants.com/) -if he has any of what you want.
cheers
fermi
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I think this route is too expensive so I will put out a request for seed of these little gems. I'm especially keen to grow Narcissus viridiflorus here.