Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => NARCISSUS => Topic started by: Regelian on April 01, 2009, 04:40:01 PM
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Well, I can't compare to these lovely dwarf species you are all growing with great success, but I do have a few un-named seedlings in the garden, the results of a discard bag from a Dutch breeder. Most of the bulbs bore poor blossoms, but 4 or 5 were nice enough that I have held on to them. Attached are two doubles, possibly siblings, which I rather enjoy.
By the way, other than good drainage, what do the Hoop Peticoats require? I've tried them a few times in the garden and they flower once (if at all), but that is it. Do they need a dry period in Summer?
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Interesting find today in my greenhouse, a N triandrus germinated less than 2 years ago (AnneW might like the details: sown Feb 2007, germinated May 2007). 4 bulbs produced by last summer, today one in flower, it must have opened a day or two ago, so during March 2009. That seems pretty fast to me.
Sorry for poor picture, taken with little compact which I don't know how to use the settings ::) (My main camera ran out of batteries, which, given that I have 3 sets, is pretty bad management from me!)
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By the way, other than good drainage, what do the Hoop Peticoats require? I've tried them a few times in the garden and they flower once (if at all), but that is it. Do they need a dry period in Summer?
Jamie - I've never tried Hoop Petticoats in the garden. I grow them in pots which are allowed to dry out completely in the summer, though they are not baked. Under these conditions, they flower regularly (unlike some of the other dwarf narcissus species which I suspect need more of a baking than I give them).
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Gerry,
thanks, this may be the tip I need! Cologne can be wet in the Summer and is rarely hot enough to bake anything, although many Tulipa are quite happy in the garden. I have some in a pot at the moment and will try them through the Summer.
This is why I love this group!
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I have some hoops in a raised bed with flower buds just showing between the leaves. They were bought as romouxii but when I queried them on here they arent as sold
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Jamie, your double looks rather like Van Sion. Diane - that IS quick. What are you feeding them with, rocket fuel?
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Anne,
I'm unfamiliar with Van Sion, I'll have to check for a picture.
Both of the flowers shown are different bulbs and are clearly individual when seen. One has the doubling enclosed by the perianth, while the second is much more 'tattered' looking. There is a third clone that is completely enclosed within the corolla. Also, all three are different heights.
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I would agree with Von Sion which is very variable
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a couple more I have in flower at the moment
Narcissus polyanthos which has a wonderful scent
Narcissus abscissus . I think this is correct but it is slightly different to others I grow which are not yet in flower.They have a narrower tube
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Well, I've done a bit of research on Van Sion and am pretty sure that is NOT what I have in the garden. My plant is very consistent year after year, not very vigourous and quite symetrical in its form. Of course, I'm no Daffodil expert. In any case, the history of Van Sion is fascinating! Around since at least 1620! Looks good for its age and must be tough as nails to have hung around that long.
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Van Sion on daffseek.com
http://www.daffseek.com/query/query-detail.php?value1=Telamonius%20Plenus&lastpage=1&which=hist1 (http://www.daffseek.com/query/query-detail.php?value1=Telamonius%20Plenus&lastpage=1&which=hist1)
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Mark, et al,
if that page is actually showing the same plant name, I don't see how it can be the same clone. It defies the actual definition of a clone (genetically identical). It may well represent a strain, if it produces seed. Without consistency, what is it? Even including the possibilities of en epigenetic variation, some consistentcy must be notable. Even the height in the description varies by over 100%. Even true species rarely show this kind of variance.
Of the plants that I have, each one is consitent within its self, but clearly different. How can they be the same clone? Siblings I can understand, but something is not adding up, here! Are there examples of the same bulb showing various flower forms over subsequent years? On what is the basis for 'Van Sion'? Is it simply an accepted name for any un-named double? Has anyone done any genetic study on the plant?
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NN. triandrus ssp triandrus and bulbocodium citrinus are both brilliant sale plants because of their quick growth as well as their lovely appearance. I sell a lot of pots through a local outlet and nowadays I simply sow 4 or 5 seeds in each pot knowing that in about 2 and a half years I can sell them with 3 or 4 flowers in each pot. In the meantime, I just put them in a cool place and basically forget about them.
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I'll email Brian Duncan, Narcissus breeder, to see if he would like to comment
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NN. triandrus ssp triandrus and bulbocodium citrinus are both brilliant sale plants because of their quick growth as well as their lovely appearance. I sell a lot of pots through a local outlet and nowadays I simply sow 4 or 5 seeds in each pot knowing that in about 2 and a half years I can sell them with 3 or 4 flowers in each pot. In the meantime, I just put them in a cool place and basically forget about them.
Have you ever had one flower in under 2 years, Lesley?
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Bright sunshine when I photographed Narcissus 'Van Sion yesterday so the pics did not show enough detail. My lot seem fairly consistent with the splitting of the coronas slightly variable but this may be due to the age of the flowers.
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Here are some portraits from my collection prior to the drying winds
Emperor's Waltz - a miniature
asturiensis? Wavertree
Bambi
an Anne Wright baby cyclamineus x asturiensis
good ole Jetfire
dry bulbs bought as Mitzy
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Another oldie flowering now. The name 'Bacon and Eggs' comes to mind. I did see it's proper name somewhere but didn't write it down so have forgotten.
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Diane, I also have a flower on Narcissus triandrus (pallidulus) sown in January 2007. The seed was from SRGC. I see I had two lots of seed, one wild collected but am not sure which is flowering. Will check the label tomorrow.
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Bright sunshine when I photographed Narcissus 'Van Sion yesterday so the pics did not show enough detail. My lot seem fairly consistent with the splitting of the coronas slightly variable but this may be due to the age of the flowers.
You may be interested to know that 'Van Sion' is extremely vigorous in southern Nova Scotia and multiplies like mad. It is mainly on the Acadian islands in the Yarmouth area known as Argyle. It may very well have been brought to Nova Scotia in the 1600's by the original settlers.
johnw
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Mark - You have a fantastic collection of Narcissus!
johnw
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NN. triandrus ssp triandrus and bulbocodium citrinus are both brilliant sale plants because of their quick growth as well as their lovely appearance. I sell a lot of pots through a local outlet and nowadays I simply sow 4 or 5 seeds in each pot knowing that in about 2 and a half years I can sell them with 3 or 4 flowers in each pot. In the meantime, I just put them in a cool place and basically forget about them.
Have you ever had one flower in under 2 years, Lesley?
I don't think so Diane, the seasons would make it unlikely as I sow late summer/autumn (now in fact) and it generally germinates winter/spring, so, now I come to think of it, it flowers in about 2-2 and a quarter years from germinaton, 2 and a half from sowing.
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If you are interested -
there are some Narcissus pics in Travel/Places to Visit -
E. Spain - some spring flowers in March (+ a few will follow)
Gerd
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One from the greenhouse today-Narcissus 'Fairy Chimes' from Anne's List.
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Assorted "daffs" around and about the place today.......
Narcissus 'Martinette' a tall yellow/orange jonquil hybrid with a heavenly scent. Flowers about 55mm across
[attach=1]
Narcissus baeticus ( Fern. Casas) a synonym of assoanus Flowers about 20mm across
[attach=2]
A batch of cute seedlings
[attach=3]
A young jonquil, with a nearby tulip chum.
[attach=4]
A little wildling type in the drive ... kept nice and short by the awful conditions. :-X
[attach=5]
Corydalis and Narcissus bulbocdium combination
[attach=6]
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Great collection there Maggi, and nice combinations. I wonder if Roma's 'Bacon and eggs' (I'm suddenly hungry) could be a double poeticus? It's not like N poeticus flore pleno in Broadleigh's list though, which is all white.
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Just googled Narcissus bacon and eggs and came up with http://www.koanga.org.nz/perennials.html, which is quite different.
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Some Narcissus from my garden (I never remember the different names)
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a couple more
Narcissis poeticus from Italy
and another Narcissus alpestris
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Tony are you growing N poeticus in a pot? It is one of my absolute favourite bulbs, I remember it from childhood when it flourished on heavy clay in my parents garden. I saw it at Cerler in huge quantities in (seasonally) wet ground. The scent is the best! It does not do so well in my sandy soil, at least the form I grow does not flower most years. Perhaps I should move it into a sunnier (but therefore drier) spot?
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Tony
yes it is in a pot under glass.I could not get it out to photograph it because it had rooted through. I did not see any at Cerler but hundreds of alpestris. it gets a very good drying of on summer with me.
I have just cut them and put them in a vase in the lounge so we can enjoy them.
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I'll email Brian Duncan, Narcissus breeder, to see if he would like to comment
I'm just catching up Mark and I'm not sure what i can usefully add. VAn Sion aka N. telamonius plenus has been around since before 1620, Parkinson being the first to describe it. It comes in many forms, sometimes with neatly filled trumpet and sometines as a confused mess in the centre. The same bulb can produce various forms in different years - most doubles, even modern ones are subject to a bit of seasonal variability. Bowles writes well about it (p.87-88 in his NARCISSUS). It hybridises quite freely and I have small specimens having crossed it with N. asturiensis - about 50% of the seedlings are double. Though mostly vegetatively re-produced with this promiscuity it is not surprising that it's form varies from location to location depending on the other parent. It is a very variable plant and attempts to assign it as a double version of a particular N. pseudonarcissus have so far failed. Maybe DNA sequencing will tell of it's relationship.
Van Sion is grown commercially on the cold windy island of Texel (where the sheep of that name come from)in the North Sea and the specimens shown at Breezand Show each Feb/MAr. are excellent, strong and healthy.
I regard N. Van Sion as my season indicator - if it opens on 17th MArch St Patricks Day, the season is about normal - this year it opened about 13-14 March and indeed my season so far is just a little bit earlier than usual.
Brian
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Brian, thanks for the info,
it looks as though this is actually a strain and not a clone, which would leave the clonal name Van Sion as technically invalid. It should then be called N. telemonius plena Van Sion strain, I would think, similar to certain lilium strains. Of course, a few centuries of history will support Van Sion as the popular name and the important part of names is that we know what we are reffering to.
At least this would explain why I have three similar, yet quite individual, clones in the garden. As it is currently blooming, I may try some crosses to see what happens. If I get the time, I would like to do a chromosome count and G-banding to see if there are any obvious genetic characteristics. Sequencing is beyond my capabilities.
I really love looking in to mysteries, don't you?
Mark,
thanks for following-up on this! :wavey:
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I bought Narcissus 'Mite' at the show in Dunblane, so that's another of my wants ticked off.
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Narcissus marvieri in the garden and a Narcissus rupicola hybrid in the bulb frame.
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Brian, thanks for the info,
it looks as though this is actually a strain and not a clone, which would leave the clonal name Van Sion as technically invalid. I really love looking in to mysteries, don't you?
Jamie,
I'm sure clones could be selected from the Group if anyone if anyone thought it worthwhile though the seasonal variation would make this a difficult and lengthy exercise. As N. calcicola selection 'Idol' is strictly known as 'Idol group' because it is propaged from seed and not a precise clone I suppose 'Van Sion' could be similarly regarded - though it goes back so far in history and is so well known to be variable the addition of Group seems un-necessary and unweildly. The daffodil registrar uses the term Group instead of strain - which I think is in line with the International Nomenclatural Committee guidelines.(pardon if I have not got the precise title correct!
Brian
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Here are two daffodils from today
1. Narcissus gaditanus - or N. assoanus - both are very similar, gaditanus has a curved tube - I can't decide is it curved or not
2. Narcissus triandrus ssp. triandrus - originally from n.w. Spain
Gerd
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Gerd I enjoyed your violas but that triandus is perfect.
Two more of mine
Narcissus abscissus
Narcissus pallidiflorus
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The first narcissus was collected as seed in Val D'Incles, Andorra. Might be N pallidiflorus. Any other suggestions?
Below is Narcissus nobilis var primigenius. Only 15-20cm tall it is much smaller than 'standard' N nobilis. Again raised from seed.
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Here are three in the garden today: Nn. pseudonarcissus; moschatus and one I don't know.
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Great daffodils everyone. Tony W I love your Narcissus abscissus - what an elegant flower. Tony G I like your nobilis too. The slugs are eating most of my daffodils in the garden. I've just come back in from a patrol and bagged quite a few. How come every other house in the village has acres of the things, while mine are just stalks or even stumps???
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Anne I know the feeling! Last year every flower in my narcissus frame seemed to have its own pet snail :'( :'(
We had a purge in that part of the garden in the autumn. Cleared all weedy areas around the frame and laid a new path alongside. General clearance also exposed many potential snail dens to the local blackbirds. Oh and I have placed some 'wildlife friendly' slug and snail killer in between the pots. Result: almost no damage this year although increased vigilance has enabled me to catch and dispatch any survivors early.
However - this may not help as the pictures I have seen of your garden suggest tidiness and order, things sadly missiing here in recent years :-[
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However - this may not help as the pictures I have seen of your garden suggest tidiness and order, things sadly missiing here in recent years :-[
I am very selective of the views I take. ::) You should see behind the photographer!
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Here is a favourite late Narcissus, which I purchased some years ago at Chelsea. As I recall, it was called UFO.
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Some Narcissus-cultivars flowering here now
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And not even a nibble! I spent two hours last night slug hunting and caught hundreds because it had been raining, but still some clumps of daffodils had been eaten between midnight and breakfast. :'( Volunteers required!
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Jamie that is a very nice one.
my yellow Narcissus alpestris is now flowering
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Nice and interesting variety, Tony!
I'll take the opportunity and add some of the later flowering daffodils here
1. + 2. Narcissus nobilis
3. Narcissus abcissus - just opening
4. Narcissus graellsii from the center of Spain (thanks to Rafa)
Gerd
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The Narcissus graellsii is lovely Gerd. Here's a reappearance in the garden from a Narcissus I thought had been vanished.
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Wonderful plants everyone !
That's 50 pages of Narcissus :o :o :o
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Luc,
I'll continue it with page 51 :)
I view from my garden...
Narcissus mix - Prof. Einstein, Tete a Tete, N. pseudonarcissus ssp pseudonarcissus
N. Amber Queen
N. x odorus
N. The Trevithian
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Two years ago I reluctantly decided to bite the bullet and try a single Narcissus cyclamineus outside. It was planted in the south in heavy wet soil rather deeply. Coming from Spain I had not much hope for its survival in the cool foggy and wet of that climate. Last Spring it did not appear and I assumed it was not hardy and so congratulated myself for not sacrificing all my bulbs for trial. This morning I was shocked to see the sad little soul in bloom and looking quite perky. There is a think layer of moss and leafmould over soil in which the the bulb is planted. Somehow it managed to surface strongly.
A nice surprise.
johnw
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Some Narcissus in the garden- the first a Narcissus tazetta hybrid (?), the second one of the few plants that are original to this garden- Narcissus poeticus, and the third a Narcissus rescued from a roadside tip [along with several dozen Sternbergia and some tulips- we have no shame really ;)]
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Simon,
nice Tazetta hybrid. Does not survive in my climate. :'(
The poeticus resemble cultivar "Actea".
The last...hm ?
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Thanks Armin- we were pleasantly surprised by the tazetta hybrid too- it never did well in England as it always tried to flower too early and had its flowers frosted off- here the long time under snow seems to have forced it to wait. Thanks for the N.poeticus id- as the plant is original to the garden, and as, historically, there weren't many different narcissus being grown in bulgarian gardens (before hypermarkets like Metro opened) I wasn't sure if it was the species or a selection.
Simon
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Some more narcissi flowering here now:
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The daffs are nearly over here -
this is Narcissus jonquilla - the wild occuring form
Gerd
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Gerd,
what a wee beautiful thing!
Hope I can see it soon ;)
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Gerd, is your garden well sheltered? Narcissus jonquilla would be decimated in my windy garden.
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Gerd, is your garden well sheltered? Narcissus jonquilla would be decimated in my windy garden.
Yes, it is walled and within a city. In most years N. jonquilla was unharmed but
this spring I noticed some damage also.
Gerd
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The first narcissus was collected as seed in Val D'Incles, Andorra. Might be N pallidiflorus. Any other suggestions?
Below is Narcissus nobilis var primigenius. Only 15-20cm tall it is much smaller than 'standard' N nobilis. Again raised from seed.
Tony,
Val D'Incles is a wonderful site for N. pallidiflorus, I have not heard of another pseudonarcissus type in there. It is also a great place to find the three gentians - even within single photographic shot - G. acaulis, verna and pyrenaica. Presumably you also found the variable Crocus verna opening at the snowline and several colours of Hepatica under the bushes - and if you were lucky a few lovely little Soldanella. What a magnificent place to visit! Your N. primigenius presumably hails from the Picos de Europa - I like the symetrical spiral 'propellor like' petals. Nice pictures.
Brian
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The first narcissus was collected as seed in Val D'Incles, Andorra. Might be N pallidiflorus. Any other suggestions?
Below is Narcissus nobilis var primigenius. Only 15-20cm tall it is much smaller than 'standard' N nobilis. Again raised from seed.
Tony,
Val D'Incles is a wonderful site for N. pallidiflorus, I have not heard of another pseudonarcissus type in there. It is also a great place to find the three gentians - even within single photographic shot - G. acaulis, verna and pyrenaica. Presumably you also found the variable Crocus verna opening at the snowline and several colours of Hepatica under the bushes - and if you were lucky a few lovely little Soldanella. What a magnificent place to visit! Your N. primigenius presumably hails from the Picos de Europa - I like the symetrical spiral 'propellor like' petals. Nice pictures.
Brian
Thanks Brian. I was in Val D'Incles in late June, the narcissus were all in seed as were Crocus vernus and Crocus nudiflorus and Gentiana pyrenaica. I collected the crocus in several sites thinking all were C nudiflorus, it was a surprise when some came as Crocus vernus several years later! You have whetted my appetite for a repeat visit (Inghams do a cheap package to Soldeu) but how early do these plants flower? At a guess April/early May? I did see the gentians in flower higher up and the last tatty narcissus.
The N primigenius was also from seed but I think it was ex cultivated plants. Probably not many generations away from the wild populations you suggest.
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I saw some narcissus in the wild in the mountains of serra de Aires in Portugal a week ago.
I think they might be n bulbocodium subsp bulbocodium.
two flowers an a seed pod.
Please let me know if You disagree with the name.
Kind regards
Joakim
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I saw some narcissus in the wild in the mountains of serra de Aires in Portugal a week ago.
I think they might be n bulbocodium subsp bulbocodium.
two flowers an a seed pod.
Please let me know if You disagree with the name.
Kind regards
Joakim
Joakim,
When looking at the flowers of your plants which incurve at the margin of the corona it might be possible that you found Narcissus (bulbocodium) obesus - a real fatty in its typical form.
Here it is just flowering - later than the other bulbocodiums!
Gerd
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Wisley.
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Here's my Narcissus obesus.
[attach=1]
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And mine :)
[attachthumb=1]
[attachthumb=2]
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Great plants everyone. Here the last ones are
N. 'Bebop' (rupicola x poeticus)
N. x cazorlanus bulking up nicely in my quarantine area, but suspected virus is confirmed this year :-X >:(
N. poeticus 'Actaea' lingers rather than thrives for me :-\
N. tazetta hybrid possibly an old one, that does well here
N. 'WP Milner' one I like very much
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Lesley, David
Like your obese daffs - it seems they are a little fatter than those in nature!
Gerd
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Gerd, my Narcissus obesus came from a very good home-Anne Wright ;D
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Some N. pseudnarcissus ssp. pseudonarcissus (lobularis) pictures from the wild and more from a trip last Thursday.
If you want to see more visit topic: "To the flowering daffodils in the Eifel/W. Germany"
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3424.0 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3424.0)
best regards
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Magnificent Armin. Thanks to you and Gerd for a fascinating report. Is this population very isolated, and how big is it?
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Breathtaking. :o :o :o :o
I know that everything has to have been wild "somewhere", but it is still so strange to see the things we grow in our gardens here growing wild in numbers like that (not that that particular daff is growing and flowering here). So much of what I grow is northern hemisphere stuff which I will never see growing wild in their origins, so these pics are extra special. 8)
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Ashley,
Paul,
thanks for the comments. The Narcissus population in the Belgian/Germany Eifel area is isolated but in Germany it is the largest of its kind. The Perlenbach protected territory is ~339ha, in total ~400ha..
I'll continue to post more pictures today, also from two other places Gerd and I visited.
Please have a look later today. ;)
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Lesley, David
Like your obese daffs - it seems they are a little fatter than those in nature!
Gerd
It's probably a matter of whom they live with Gerd. ;D Well I'm not speaking for David's of course.
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Lesley, David
Like your obese daffs - it seems they are a little fatter than those in nature!
Gerd
It's probably a matter of whom they live with Gerd. ;D Well I'm not speaking for David's of course.
Lesley,
In that particular case my plant is much too small ;D
Gerd
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Armin and Gerd
very nice pictures from the wild.
My last one to flower I think for this year Narcissus poeticus from Greece
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One of my favourite dwarf hybrids: Narcissus 'Bilbo'.
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Armin and Gerd
very nice pictures from the wild.
My last one to flower I think for this year Narcissus poeticus from Greece
Tony,
lovely - one of my favourites.
Mine, from garden center, are just opening, too.
I saw in the 90th. a poeticus meadow with thousands of poeticus flowers in the Swiss near Montreux sur Lausanne - an unforgetable impression!
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One of my favourite dwarf hybrids: Narcissus 'Bilbo'.
Nice to see, Anthony, as it's one of the "new" ones I got this year - it may be awhile before my single bulb gets to be as nice as the clump you have there.
cheers
fermi
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When visiting the Connoisseur Collection with another Forumist, we picked some look-alikes of Narcissus Bilbo.
Is there anyone who can say which one is Bilbo?
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Flowers are looking as beautiful as ever chez Monsiuer Le Connoisseur, I see :D
I think Bilbo is on the right of the photo and that one of the others, perhaps the left, is Brian Duncan's "daughter" KayDee ???
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Maggi, it seems you are the only person who has the guts to try.
I must say that I am a little disappointed that the other Narcissus specialists in the Forum
keep quiet. ::) ::) ::)
But you are really invincible!
I have another picture where somebody is looking a bit critical at the flowers ;D ;D
From left Little Princess, Betsy MacDonald and Bilbo
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Oh, Armin came to visit you, how nice! 8)
Yes, I thought that someone would surely make their guesses..... :-X
I would have been wrong about the other flowers though.... I would have guessed that they might be other 6W-P crosses from Brian Duncan.... so I would have suggested, if not KayDee, then Diane or Delta Wings... :-\
I must study the breeding of these two,Little Princess and Betsy MacDonald now.... I like to learn these things, even if I soon forget! :-[
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From those photos I would say the Narcissus world has the potential to be as mixed up as the Galanthus world
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Well, Armin could not hold more than three at once, because it was very windy.
Otherwise we would have shown at least 10 equal ones, which were easy to find there...
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Mark, I think many plants have these similar puzzles.... look at Pleione, for example! ::)
Luit, I think you've been cheating ;)... I find that Little Princess is a 2-W-P not a 6 W-P ..... a different section..... not that they all look the same anyway!! ;) :D
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Maggi, me cheating??? ???
I admit that I am too old to remember all these W-P's. But when we were in the field, so many Narcissus
were looking almost the same.
I hope Armin will confirm this.
He saw this the first time and was rather confused ;D ;D ;D
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Oh, Luit, I am only teasing, of course :-*
There are so many plants in all genera with different names that are too similar .......it makes my head spin to try to remember them. Even the purple-violet rhododendrons, for instance...... :-\ :-[
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Hi Maggi,
I'm confirming everything Luit was writing. ;)
Amazing huge number of similar looking daffodils. ??? :o Got a bit lost in confusion with all the cultivar names. :P ::)
The visit to the tulip and narcissi land I'll never forget. It was very impressive to see all the huge fields with millions of bulbs in flower and the way of professional cultivation.
Against all prejudices of virus careing bulbs from Holland - I have seen much care during flowering i.e. visible inspections in the tulip fields. Each abnormal looking tulip (leaves/color) has been removed and disposed without any hesitance to keep varities in the fields clean and healthy.
One insight I got. The size of almost every tulip/narcis cultivar in the fields exceeded the size those of my own garden. This was a bit demotivating. :( But: It must be the combination of the coast climate, the sandy soil, the knowledge/experience and care of breeders which makes Holland so suitable for bulb mass growing. Holland's bulb breeders are better then their bad name.
As a consequence I have to improve the conditions in my garden if I want to be able to obtain comparable results in the future.
I got many ideas...
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Armin,
It may also come down to watering. Friends from here in Canberra were over visiting New Zealand and a daff show there..... the NZ versions of the same daffs were twice the size of ours, mainly due to them having plenty of water while we're so restricted here. Apparently heavy watering as they're coming growth makes a big difference to the flower formation and size.
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An old friend no longer alive, used to import Alec Gray's miniature daffs many years ago and her comment was that invariably those forms grew to 2 inches (5cms) taller than they were said to grow in the UK. This was probably a climate thing too.
So far as naming is concerned, with so many vars looking almost identical, of course it happens with any genus where there are hundreds or even thousands of man-made hybrids. Bearded irises are a case in point. The Brits, Americans, French, Italians, Germans, Australians and NZers - probably others - are all releasing many new named vars each year so inevitably the same iris (in appearance, if not genetically) turns up under several different names. The same with daffodils. At least with bearded irises there is a much greater colour range to start with.
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Paul,
you are right. The ground water level is often only -50cm below ground. The roots can get enough water in the growing season.
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A little findling popping up from a forest of Colchicum leaves. Not quite sure how it got there and why it is blooming so late, but it is the list of plants to relocate this summer.
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Few years ago I grew daffodils, too. Had collection of 1400 cultivars and hybrids, between them more than 400 of my own breeds. It was 1 acre in total but 3-4 years ago all of them I sold to Dutch company. Left very few some 10 years ago presented to my wife and planted at my wifes nursery between perennials. This spring they nicely bloomed and I want few of them show to you.
Janis
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I really like the 2 singles, especially Lord of the Rings - very pretty.
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I really like the 2 singles, especially Lord of the Rings - very pretty.
Same here :)
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I rather like Naivety and Immortality. The rest are great as well though.
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One of the latest Narcissus flowering here now, Narcissus Albus Plenus Odoratus,
the double flowered N. poeticus (N. poeticus Plenus)
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That's rather nice, is it well scented also?
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Isn't it great. I love double daffs (I know, I know, some of us here absolutely hate them! ::)) but this has to be one of my favourites of all of them. The flower reminds me so much of a Gardenia, with perfectly overlapping petals and such a pure white. You'd never have any idea it was poeticus to look at it. Lovely flower, and great picture Luit. :)
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Does anyone know of a nursery supplying this narcissus in the UK?
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That's rather nice, is it well scented also?
Yes Anne, it is really well scented.
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Does anyone know of a nursery supplying this narcissus in the UK?
Found this one on Google Anne. Might be worth trying later in the year.
http://shop1.actinicexpress.co.uk/shops/rosecottageplants/index.php?cat=Narcissus
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Does anyone know of a nursery supplying this narcissus in the UK?
Broadleigh usually have it on their list, Anne.
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There is something in my befuddled mind about the double poeticus, regarding it never being found in the wild but there being a stand somewhere in the Orkney Islands. Does this ring any bells with anyone?
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That really is the most stunning double I have seen, I have a few doubles and quite like white sail a miniature double.
I have a few daffs that I would not mind names for if possible.
I will post a few pics and if anyone can help it would be fantastic.
[white/cream multi.img][/img]
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Hi
Another pic for ID, is this Accent?, it seems to multiply quickly which is good as I quite like the pinks.
Speaking of pinks, is reggae a common miniature? Perhaps Leslie might know if its in NZ, more for interest really ;D .
Regards
Kees (http://)
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Any chance you could rotate them before posting them Kees. It only takes one sharp turn to give me a crick in the neck that lasts for days.
I do like 'Lord of the Rings' Jānis, and not just because it would go well with 'Bilbo'. I love the lemon edge to the trumpet.
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I saw some of the little white one yesterday in a garden centre. It was incredibly strongly scented. Should have bought a few.
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Speaking of pinks, is reggae a common miniature? Perhaps Leslie might know if its in NZ, more for interest really ;D .
Regards
Kees
Hi Kees,
I'm pretty sure that "Reggae" was on Rod Barwick's list in 2007 or 2008; that's when I got it. So it's in Australia at least.
cheers
fermi
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I don't know if it's here or not but that means nothing as I don't grow many hybrids so have little idea of what is available.
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Narcissus 'New Baby' (?) today- my very last narcissus until autumn. :(
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Interesting colour combination, Simon. Quite unusual.
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Narcissus 'New Baby' (?) today- my very last narcissus until autumn. :(
Don't be sad Simon... :D Autumn will be there sooner than we might like it... :-\
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Simon,
a very beautiful narcissi you have. :o 8)
All narcissus flowers over here. After some heavier rainfalls my fight against snails (Arion lusitanicus) has recrudesced :o
I thought the strong winter frosts have most killed'em - nothing of the sort! >:(
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Armin I understand how you feel- some heavy rain these last few days means the slugs are out more than normal- luckily they are easy to find and we have a good team of toads in the garden.
'New Baby' was from a garden centre- albeit a posh one ;)
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Simon,
you seem to be a lucky beggar ;) ;D
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Lol- maybe Armin- just need to see how they like the weather here now ;)
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[Another pic for ID, is this Accent?, it seems to multiply quickly which is good as I quite like the pinks.
Speaking of pinks, is reggae a common miniature?
Just catching up on the Forum - been away for the season !!
I am familiar with Accent and I do not think it is the flower in your picture but I have no reliable id. for you.
There was quite a large stock of 'Reggae' built up in Holland (acres) and I imagine it is quite widely available - I think perhaps Broadleigh have it. Nice to see Bilbo and Reggae mentioned in dispatches - both resulted from my early efforts to raise small reflexed white/pink flowers.
Brian Duncan
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Hi
I have a few questions, if you seed your narcissus does this detract from them multiplying underground at the same time.
How long can you store pollen?, I want to keep some of the early petticoat pollen to cross with later species.
I have a glass house that I am trying to convert for raising seed, I have put a sail cloth over it to protect it from frosts however this also drops the lighting. What do you guys/gals think I sould do-leave with sail cloth or not?
The collected seed from last year is starting to sprout, I have mixed narcissus seeds up in one pot over 40, 6 of a yellow-gold large trumpet in another, 1 Tete tete, 3 bulbododiums that I had previously kicked over and thought I had lost and now a single wee gem cross up.
I have a few crocus up and I find it fascinating to see the crocus seed swell and then send the root down, it seems to take ages for the shoot to then break the surface. I read that crocus seed were to be scattered on the surface, is this correct as it would appear to me that they should be set down in the soil as with narcissus. any time frames for corcus to flower from seed?
Lots of questions but I want to learn quickly and not waste any seasons.
Thanks
I have my foliosus flowering now, will attach a couple of pics
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Sorry did not rotate pics again will do so now
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Hi Kees,
Ian Young has written a lot about sowing seed "at depth" which you can find in his Bulblogs:http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/index.php?log=bulb (http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/index.php?log=bulb)
cheers
fermi
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Kees, I think you need to read Ian Young's Bulb Log (see the link from the SRGC Main Page) which will give you all the bulb seed sowing information you will ever need, and there's a fully searchable index.
I can't answer your pollen question but am sure others will be able to. As far as Crocus seeds are concerned Ian will say sow deep, about 2/3rds of the way down your seed pot, and the same with Narcissus seeds. Crocus from seed to flowering,3-4 years. Seedlings need as much light as possible when showing growth but, as long as your seed pots don't get frozen will not be too bothered by a bit of frost.
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Fermi, great minds follow the Master ;D
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The Narcissus season in Redesdale starts with N. viridiflorus,
growing in the open Rock Garden.
cheers
fermi
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That is a great start Fermi, with so many flowers!
For this special one you have a super climate.
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That is a great start Fermi, with so many flowers!
For this special one you have a super climate.
Luit,
If I just had some other pollen to try to recreate those great hybrids you showed us at the Lisse Flower Show! ;D
cheers
fermi
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That is a great start Fermi, with so many flowers!
For this special one you have a super climate.
Not much to add - simply overwhelming! Super grown plants!
Gerd
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Wonderfull clump fermi !!
It's super to see this flowers now ;D
Congratulations, they seems to be very happy and well grown.
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Exciting day: parcel of bulb just arrived from Dryad Nursery (forumist Anne Wright) 8)
Look like the rain is about to start again so potting up these bulbs will be a pleasant indoor task this afternnoon: thanks, Anne! 8) 8)
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;)
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Extraordinary sight today.... out with the dogs (Lily, Molly is staying right now and Figo is here for the day) ...in a patio pot by a driveway up the road a few narcissus hybrids are in flower! They are about 6-7 cms across the flower, with cups about 2cms long and about the same broad, plain yellow, around 30cms hig. No idea of the variety but they look to have been recently planted..... I expect they are bulbs that got forgotten and planted very late.... but even so, it was a shock to see them now. ::)
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Extraordinary sight today.... out with the dogs (Lily, Molly is staying right now and Figo is here for the day) ...in a patio pot by a driveway up the road a few narcissus hybrids are in flower! They are about 6-7 cms across the flower, with cups about 2cms long and about the same broad, plain yellow, around 30cms hig. No idea of the variety but they look to have been recently planted..... I expect they are bulbs that got forgotten and planted very late.... but even so, it was a shock to see them now. ::)
Maggi, this spring it was possible to acquire Narcissus bulbs which were prepared for spring planting.
Since some years a research was started in Lisse to find out the possibilities of keeping bulbs dry till spring.
With Narcissus were until now the best results.
After planting they will flower in short time.
The question is of course if consumers are really waiting for this... ::) ::)
On the other side, of the many visitors to the bulb fields in spring, there will certainly be many,
who want to buy bulbs right away and enjoy them flowering some weeks after coming home.
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Oh, this is very interesting, Luit. Yes, I can see that visitors will enjoy to b ring home bulbs treated in this way.....and perhaps for those narcissus lovers a longer season, too, will be good.
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Oh, this is very interesting, Luit. Yes, I can see that visitors will enjoy to b ring home bulbs treated in this way.....and perhaps for those narcissus lovers a longer season, too, will be good.
What happens the year after? do they revert to their "normal" time of flowering?
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Oh, this is very interesting, Luit. Yes, I can see that visitors will enjoy to b ring home bulbs treated in this way.....and perhaps for those narcissus lovers a longer season, too, will be good.
What happens the year after? do they revert to their "normal" time of flowering?
I think so, but research is not finished.
It's something different when they are bought in Septermber and flower in October. Cannot imagine they will flower next spring again.
Normally Narcissus bulbs which were used for forcing are kept dry till September
and planted and will not give many flowers :-\, but very good bulbs for flowering the year after. But these forced bulbs are really in stress of course.
So time will learn about.
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This should probably go in the Muscari thread but I am pleased to see that the Muscari macrocarpum which I bought a month or so ago and was told had been forced for winter flowering, are not only still in flower (26 stems on 12 bulbs) but are now producing at least 2 more stems on each bulb in a brand new batch. The first should be out in another week or so.They're outside because I found the perfume just TOO much. There also seems to be some seed forming, which I certainly didn't expect.
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Hi
By making some species/varieties of narcissus flower later could be very beneficial for hybridising, you could if you wanted make crossing the earlist daffs like the petticoat foliosus to the later species such as poeticus or any other but it would mean that storing pollen would not be a problem.
I thought I would post a few pics of my latest daffs, cantabricus and monophylus.
Also I was quite surprised to find 2 cyclamen seedlings popping up in an orchid pot this week, I do now remember throwing the seeds in there but not expecting anything to happen.
Anyway here are the pics.
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Here is another pic on monophylus, chucked in a pic of my apprentice and his mother as well.
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Looks like a good season for skating and curling Kees. :)
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Looks like a good season for skating and curling Kees. :)
Crumbs! I didn't think so.... too many cracks on that ice for my liking :o :-\
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They may be just scrapes already left by skaters. These Central Otago dams are used for skating and curling every year Maggi, unless we have a very mild winter. Not that ANYTHING would entice me onto the ice. And there's a new indoor curling rink at Naseby for those occasions when the frosts aren't cold enough.
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I hope so, Lesley! Had it drummed into me when little that you should never go on frozen water where the ice had any cracks : good that I remember some stuff my Mum taught me, isn't it? :-\
Looking at Kees' lovley short narcisssus makes me envious of the light conditions he must have to keep them neat like that. In Aberdeen ours get pulled too tall by the lack of good growing light.... though, yes, I know, we DO need to clean the bulb-house glass more often :P
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We have had a pretty mild Autumn and Winter so far, only had 2 frosts at home as well as a bit of snow for a day.
The damn looks worse than it was due to the snow on top in parts but yes most of the marks were from skaters, still I was not venturing on to it just in case. There were a few loud cracks and booms just to keep everyne interested and on their toes.
It appears that I also have my first Taffeta out now as well, they all look so similar but it will be interesting to see how they change over the next week or two.
Does anyone know if all the petticoats like to be kept fairly dry in Summer or if it is just foliosus, if you can not tell by the pics all mine are planted outside in a small raised garden.
Regards
Kees
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Nice to get a Narcissus fix at this time of year Kees !
Thanks for posting !
I think it's safe to say that virtually all pettycoats enjoy a dry (and prefarable warm) Summer.
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Kees,
My clump of 'Taffetta' is opening at the moment as well. Only one or two fully extended as yet, but quite a few buds coming through. The fog has barely cleared here most days this week, so no photographs. If we're lucky we get the fog clear by 3pm or so..... and it is already back tonight the thickest I can recall ever noting it outside at night. :o
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I posted pics of this hybrid hoop, "Camoro" to the "June in the SH" thread last week.
I haven't had a chance to take another pic but there are more blooms coming.
"Tarlatan" is soon to open and "Jessamy" has a couple of "lemon hoops" open already.
cheers
fermi
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Pretty little hoops Fermi, nice to be reminded of cool times as we enter the season of Crisp here!
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Fermi,
I don't think I've come across 'Jessamy' before, so would love to see pics of it when available. Is it your earliest yellow then?
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Fermi,
I don't think I've come across 'Jessamy' before, so would love to see pics of it when available. Is it your earliest yellow then?
Hi Paul,
this isn't the best pic of "Jessamy" - didn't notice a water droplet on the lens! And the dew overnight has dampened it a bit anyway.
[attachthumb=1]
And a better pic of "Camoro"
[attachthumb=2]
cheers
fermi
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Fermi, those Comoro are lovely, quite an intense green with them, very nice. Not sure if they are in NZ but will keep a look out.
Another lovely sunny day here in Dunedin, the weather really has been pretty good, we have a couple of days and people forget that last wek or so. I expect that my taffeta are out now, will take a pic and post them.
Its nice to see everyone elses for comparison. I hope to get seed from all of my petticoats this season, being my first with them, and have collected pollen for crossed with other minatures.
I collected seed from a nice yellow/gold long trumpet daffodil last year and so far 20 of 27 seeds have germinated, with more every week. I still only have 2 seedling from Wee Gem and a couple from Tete tete and a dissapointing couple of collected seed from bulbocodiums from our public gardens. My mixed narcissus seedlings number over 60 but who knows what they are, I just wanted some seedlings so I guess in about 4-6 more years I may have some flowers from them.
Keep posting pics, they are great.
Kees
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Thanks Fermi. You're well ahead of me. Must go and see whether buds have emerged yet on my 'Camoro'.
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Fermi, those Comoro are lovely, quite an intense green with them, very nice. Not sure if they are in NZ but will keep a look out.
Hi Kees,
I got mine from Marcus Harvey (Hillview Rare plants, 200 (sorry about that, Chief) 400 Huon Rd, South Hobart, Tasmania 7004) who will export to NZ (just ask Lesley!)
cheers
fermi
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Fermi,
I think that Marcus is 400 Huon Road, from memory. And I don't think the postcode is quite right either. That one is for the Snug area, isn't it? I must go and check for sure.
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Marcus Harvey, Hillview Rare Plants
Mr M Harvey
400 Huon Road
South Hobart, Tas. 7004
Ph: (03) 6224 0770 or (03) 6223 1608
email: hillview400@hotmail.com
:D
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400 Huon Rd is right, but so is the postcode, 7004. Marcus had 7000 on his latest catalogue or somewhere recently, but it was a misprint. Snug is 7054. (Just had some seed from Rob K.)
Yes Kees, Marcus exports to NZ. Suggest you email him for his next list (around Nov/Dec) and if you wanted, you could add your order to mine, for a single phyto, inspection etc. Dormant bulbs from Australia don't have to go into quarantine. But we can't import irises.
So far I haven't seen 'Camoro' in NZ.
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I'll add these in here, as well as the Southern Hemisphere "flowering now" topic....
Narcissus 'Taffetta' - my clump in the crocus garden. Yes, a snail has hit one of the flowers. Still putting on a lovely show, and the bee is obviously enjoying itself.
Narcissus viridiflorus - just the one flowering for me, but such a tiny little cutie.
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you're giving us great photos, Paul, thanks!
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Fantastic images, Paul, I so wish I could grow white hoops.
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You can't? But by the sound of it you can grow the yellow ones? Or is it just that the white ones flower earlier than the yellows and so get too much cold?
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Too wet and too cold for them unfortunately, even N. bulbocodium has some difficulties in the ground here. It's nice to be able to enjoy them in the forum at least :)
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I didn't realise that the white were any different in tolerances to the straight bulbocodiums. If you're wanting to try some of our Aussie bred varieties I have enough to share a few bulbs at the end of the season. I think Taffetta is one of the Glenbrook breeding, and he has some other wonderful ones as well. 'Fyno' grows like a weed here (literally in some cases, as it seed rather freely, and all identical to the parent as far as I have seen) so more htan happy to try to help you find a white that will survive for you. ;D
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Wonderful N. Taffetta Paul !!! :o A welcome intruder in the Crocus bed I guess ! ;)
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Thanks, Paul, I'd love to give it another try, though I fear sending them here is the equivalent of sending them to death-row... :-[
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Luc,
My "crocus bed" was designed for Crocus, Iris reticulatas, and the Hoop petticoat Daffs (there are some Anemone blanda, Moraea polystachya, Spiloxene linearis amongst them and also some Calostemma and Lycoris in the top level). I wanted a blend of things to give a range of heights and colours etc. Over time I will reorganise arrangements if I get time during summers.
Arisaema,
That was why I was reassuring you that there were enough to spare, because I figured that you'd be thinking that way. ;) The 'Fyno' at least is really not going to be a problem to sacrifice to the greater good, and the way the others multiply I would be thinking the 'Taffetta' won't even be noticeable next year. ;D What white varieties have you tried there before?
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I'm pretty sure 'Taffeta' is an English hybrid, along with 'Nylon' and the like. Maybe one of Alec Gray's? It has been around for many, many years.
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Thanks Lesley. I'll mentally adjust my definition of 'Taffeta' then (and my spelling). I jumped to conclusions about it coming from Glenbrook. Now I am right on 'Fyno' though, aren't I?
A couple of minutes later......... Just checked on Daffseek and you're right.... 'Taffeta' was bred by Douglas Blanchard in England, and 'Fyno' is a Glenbrook one. Thanks for the heads up, Lesley.
So, Arisaema, if I send you both of them I'll only be sending you one Aus breeding after all. ;)
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Paul you Taffeta look great, I hope mine will be similar in a few years, here is a pic of mine.
Thanks for the offer Leslie but I better pass at present, what sort of cost is it to import from Australia?
I will also post a pic of my monophylus showing the colour difference from freshly and a wee or so old blooms.
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Paul, any chance of a pic of your Fyno?
Below is a pic of Taffeta, this one seems really flared.
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Paul and Kees, your Narcissus 'Taffetta' look so gorgeous - the shape of the trumpet is wonderful - how tall does it grow as I would like to grow it here in the Alps (if it will survive the snow and frosts?)
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Robin,
Absolute maximum of 15cm tall for me here, maybe even a bit shorter than that. I find the stems vary according to temperatures as the flowers are opening, but I reckon 15cm is about the maximum. No idea re snow, but fine to -8 or -9'C without a problem here, even in small black plastic pots that would magnify the cold around the roots.
Kees,
I'll try to get a photo tomorrow of the 'Fyno'. Weather forecast a bit windy and murky so may be the next day. I have a pot with a whole bunch of flowers on it, so should give you a bit of a display to see. ;D
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Kees,, there certainly are costs in importing from Tasmania (Marcus Harvey) but if one wants the bulbs..... and we have no other sources now. I usually end up with an order of around $400 so if you were wanting just 2 or 3 or half a dozen, the cost for inspection, phyto etc of my order could absorb yours easily enough. Anyway, we can talk about it again when Marcus summer list is ready.
He's just sent me his winter list which includes Hellebores, lilies, auriculas and some other things. I'd like to have a go there too, though I think just about everything would have to go into quarantine, so it's not an option. As usual, the list is illustrated with Susan Jarick's beautiful paintings.
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We're heading into "hoop season" here with the first bloom on "Galligaskins" a Rod Barwick hybrid,
[attachthumb=1]
One of my oldest daffs is this little cantabricus type which a friend gave me about 30 years ago;
[attachthumb=2]
I presume it's N. cantabricus but may even be "Nylon" anyone hazard a guess?
[attachthumb=3]
And "Camoro" goes from strength to strength!
[attachthumb=4]
cheers
fermi
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Robin, all of mine seem to be 10cm at the most at present but have had a lot of sunshine hours so this may be why.
Mine survived the snow we had here, but it only lasted a day at most.
I look forward to your pic Paul.
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Fermi,
Too broad for 'Nylon' isn't it? Or are my old things I bought as Nylon years ago all incorrect. Mine are like a white bulbocodium rather than the flaring. After seeing your 'Camoro' I checked my pot and it has gone to the great garden in the sky unfortunately. Darn shame that. 'Galligaskins' and 'Tarlatan' have buds emerging at the moment at a great rate of knots. LOTS of flowers this year too. The only other couple I have in flower at the moment is a rifanicus and one other that I have l have lost the name for (but it is the nicest flower form).
Thanks so much for the pics. 8)
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And 'Nylon' is rather more lemony than that, even for 'Nylon' Group, which seems to cover quite a lot of variation. But it is reasonably wide Paul. To my mind, 'Nylon' is pretty much like 'Tarleton' but a couple of months earlier.
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Lesley,
I'll check and see whether I still have the couple of late flowers on one of the pots I got years ago as 'Nylon' and if so I'll photograph it. Could easily have been mislabelled, particularly as mine is white, not lemony. It usually flowers earliest of all of them for me (starts mid to late May), IF it bothers to flower. Seems to multiply lots, but not many flowers.
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Kees,
This is a pic of the seedlings I get from 'Fyno'. They're pretty uniform in general, allowing for individual anomolies in the occasional flower. They look the same as the parent, but I will try to find a flower if there're still any on the parent pot (different sides of the house, so different flowering times I find). These are in an 8 inch black plastic pot, and were actually seedlings from a friend's 'Fyno' into a romieuxii pot. I'm still trying to sort out any romieuxii that pop up in this pot, lifting them each year if one flowers. The 'Fyno' is far outgrowing them, particularly I think because it starts a bit earlier and then crowds out the romieuxii which flowers later.
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Paul they are lovely, very frilly and quite attractive. There really are some fantastic hoops.
I really enjoy looking at them all in this forum, hopefully I can get some nice hybrids over the next few years/decades ;D
I look forward to seeing everyones yellows later in the year as well.
Thanks again for the pic Paul
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Kees,
You're welcome. Let me know if you want me to leave some seedpods on there for you. They set seed very freely as I said, and unless they've been crossing with 'Taffeta' they should be pretty much line bred to the same colour. ;D
I'll have quite a few more varieties out soon judging by the buds coming through.
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Thanks for the info re height and frost hardiness Paul and Kees - lovely thread
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Paul; those seedlings are very good, with lovely thick texture which suggests they would stand the winter weather well. If you can spare some, I'd love some seed please. ::)
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Happy to, Lesley. Of course now that i have said they set copious seed, this will be the only year they don't. ::) ;) No idea of their snow carrying potential though, as here we rarely if ever have to have our plants cope with that. 8)
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Paul, I to would love some seed-not sure how we go about doing this though.
Regards
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Kees,
I'm guessing that Lesley probably wouldn't mind forwarding some on to you if I sent a bunch to her. She seems fairly friendly in that regard. ;D
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Kees,
I'm guessing that Lesley probably wouldn't mind forwarding some on to you if I sent a bunch to her. She seems fairly friendly in that regard. ;D
No problem. Sensible to have just one lot of postage.
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Thanks Lesley. I also realised that you're both around Dunedin, so it wouldn't be necessary to send it around NZ etc. I thought I'd get a big more spark from my comment though. ;)
Sorry, feeling mischievous today obviously. ::) Heaven help you all. :o
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For interest sake only what happens in the process, I get cicada and the odd sphinx/hawk moth specimens sent to me from all around the world and nothing is ever needed, however these are all dead and dried. There must be some kind of MAF inspection etc for viable seeds, and obviously a cost involved with such.
Regards
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Kees the process is simple once one knows the rules. Provided it is listed on the Biosecurity Index, seeds are allowed into NZ without restriction. They should be in clean packets, free of chaff or other matter, named with both the genus and species names and the package should have a customs declaration on the outside saying that it contains flower seed. Often I get an envelope with a hand written note to say it contains seed. This is OK too. The main thing is that the seed is declared.
The Biosecurity Index is available at
www1.maf.govt.nz/cgi-/bioindex/bioindex.pl
I use this website several times every week for one reason or another. Note the 1 after www
In the case of seeds of hybrids, they are allowed too, provided the parents are listed on the bio index.
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Thanks Lesley, that is easy then.
As with the cicadas that I exchange around the world with my colleagues as long as parcels are clearly marked then they will be fine, I look forward to receiving some seeds.
Thanks Paul and Lesley