Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: Oron Peri on January 05, 2009, 12:23:08 PM
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Muscari inconstrictum is starting to bloom now, it has a wide distribution,at the edge of the Eastern Mediterranean. [Parts of Turkey, Iran, Syria, Jordan, Israel & Palestine]
Attached photos in my collection and in its natural habitat in this case in the Judea desert.
It is the second species to flower after M. parviflorum.
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Not sure about my geography here Oran but in any case keep safe.
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Thank you David,
I will ....
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Thanks Oron; what a beauty this is. Is it common in Israel and under what conditions does it grow?
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Ashley,
This species is not very common in Israel, here it grows in semi desert climate, but mainly in crevices or north facing slopes and so it has humid surroundings.
M. commutatum which is very similar is much more common and grows in vast areas and conditions.
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Thanks Oron. Certainly another one I must look out for. It's confusing when constricted florets are cited as diagnostic of Muscari because there are several clear exceptions, including this species. Another taxonomic tangle.
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hi Oron
I know you are away from the troubles but I hope things are well with you.
A nice plant,I did not realise there would be interst in muscari so did not bother posting. Here is the first of mine in flower at the moment (frozen in its pot just now)
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That's very nice too Tony - and so early! Mine are all well off flowering yet.
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Tony
is it a neglectum? i see its from Italy
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Oron I understand it may be a neglectum. Most of mine,I have a lot ,are no where near flowering and this one and the next picture semed to have popped up out of season. Certainly I would think that the one from Verion will be under deep snow until April in the wild. As you will know the splitters particularly in Turkey, have attacked muscari as well as narcissus,colchicum,crocus, etc and so I am hoping some of my common ones have suddenly become rare new species.
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Since we have a thread for Muscari, perhaps someone can identify this one for me. My bulbs are of garden origin (and I don't know where they originally came from). The stem is reddish. Actually, while I had a dozen or so flowering in spring of 2007, just 1 small one came through this last spring so I hope I haven't lost it altogether by now.
[attachthumb=1]
ID please?
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Since there is an intrest for this genus I'm attaching a photo of the only autumn flowering species [Sep-Nov.]
just to put order in the blooming times of the various species.
M. parviflorum is a well known species from all over the Mediterranean and many parts of Europe and north Africa.
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Since there is an intrest for this genus
Sorry, can't help myself... I've already fined myself a chocolate bar for the upcoming terrible pun.....
Yes, Muscari can be rather neglectum, I agree..... :P :-[
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That's a two-bar violation Maggi....ooof!
Lesley, I've got something stuck in the back of my head on yours (no comments from the peanut gallery), I hope you get an answer soon...it's beautiful.
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Lesley
Muscari pseudomuscari? Its the right colour (used to be M azureum) but I'm not sure about the constricted mouth to the bells.
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And here are mine these are very common here but I have to wait a few months to see them again.
Liliaceae Muscari armeniacum a.köy barajı
Liliaceae Muscari comosum kemerburgaz 032
Liliaceae Muscari neglectum a.köy barajı
Liliaceae Muscari neglectum albino baraj kenarı.
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Sorry Tony but not that. The colour is a soft, slightly lavender-shaded misty blue and as I said, the stems are dark red. Unfortunately I've only had 2 seeds from it in at least 7 years. With all due respect to M. pseudomuscari, which I like very much, this is a classier thing.
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Lesley,
Is it 'Valerie Finnis'? One of my very favourite Muscari.
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Thank you, Ibrahim.
You send some color to us here in the north (- 10° C + snow cover fortunately).
Gerd
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Lesley,
Is it 'Valerie Finnis'? One of my very favourite Muscari.
No.
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Lesley,
Is it 'Valerie Finnis'? One of my very favourite Muscari.
Paul
WHY? It always flowers with terrible leaves. Anything other than Valerie Finnis and we would think it was virused. :o
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A few years ago I raised this little chap (with glaucous leaves) from a packet of mixed commercial seed. I do not know much about Muscari and would like to know its identity - it is easy to grow and multiplies well:
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Lesley
I have been having a look at my pictures and think yours my be Muscari aucheri which naturally is variable but looks pretty similar.
No luck with yours, Rogan,at the moment.
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Arthur,
The leaves on mine I wouldn't think of as virused.... they are decidedly curled, but then so are a lot of plants of many genus (think Albuca spiralis etc), and a great blue-grey to them. Those to me are a feature, not a detrimental aspect. And I adore the colour of the flower, which is unlike any other Muscari I have found at this stage (not that I have a huge collection by any means).
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Arthur,
The leaves on mine I wouldn't think of as virused.... they are decidedly curled, but then so are a lot of plants of many genus (think Albuca spiralis etc), and a great blue-grey to them. Those to me are a feature, not a detrimental aspect. And I adore the colour of the flower, which is unlike any other Muscari I have found at this stage (not that I have a huge collection by any means).
Paul
I agree with you that curled leaves are not always virused,
Many species, mainly those that grow in the desert adapted this characteristic, probably in order to minimise exposure of leaf surface to the backing sun.
attached M. commutaum with curly leaf.
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Oron,
I'll have to keep that one in mind if I ever see it. Very, very cool leaves and great flowers. I would love to collect more plants with curled or spiralled leaves, as the leaves last for so much longer than the flowers in general.
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Maybe we can ask Maggi to open a new thread entitled Curled and Spiralled leaves, so we can keep this one pure Muscari...?
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Maybe we can ask Maggi to open a new thread entitled Curled and Spiralled leaves, so we can keep this one pure Muscari...?
I have done just that, Oron...
the new page is here: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2906.new#new 8)
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Thanks Maggi
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Hi:
Virus infection produces curling of the foliage.
But, it is not a neat, uniform curling of the blade as seen in the images by Orn, and , Boophones, Albuca circinata, Albuca spiralis, Ledebouria crispa, etc. etc.
When virused one edge curls in one direction, the other edge in another and yet the leaf keel in just another so the whole impression is of deformity. This points to an advanced stage of infection. The earliest show as lighter parallel stripes mainly at the leaf tips and bases. Reddish stripes of this kind can be seen in virused Muscaris, Brodiaeas, Dichelostemmas, etc.
Regards
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Sorry Tony but not that. The colour is a soft, slightly lavender-shaded misty blue and as I said, the stems are dark red. Unfortunately I've only had 2 seeds from it in at least 7 years. With all due respect to M. pseudomuscari, which I like very much, this is a classier thing.
Hi Lesley
It is perhaps Muscari chalusicum of Iran. Leaves are very long and prostrate and my flowers look like yours
Dom
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Hi:
Muscari pseudomuscari is the old M. chalusicum. In this species the flowers are not as globular as in most Muscaris but open at the mouth.
Regards
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I've just spoken with the person who gave it to me some 8 or so years ago and the name she has on it is Muscari masseyanus but I remember at the time when we were discussing it (it was at a Trillium weekend, so lots of people about), there was some debate about the name. Agnes Sutherland, the original giver was at the occasion, but she, alas, has now died. Agnes was known for her deep knowledge of small bulbs. She had had contact with people such as Paul Furse and other collectors in the Middle East.
Google has produced no reference to M. masseyanus.
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No Lesley, it's not Muscari massayanum anyway (see e.g. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Muscari (http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Muscari)).
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No Lesley, it's not Muscari massayanum anyway (see e.g. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Muscari (http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Muscari)).
Rogan
if you look at the site that Ashley has highlighted, your muscari looks like M. neglectum.
cheers
fermi
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Agnes Sutherland, the original giver was at the occasion, but she, alas, has now died. Agnes was known for her deep knowledge of small bulbs.
In case anyone familiar with our popular Scottish Member, Agnes Sutherland of Ardfearn Nursery, by Inverness, has had a bit of a shock reading that she has died, I will just repeat that Lesley is speaking of a late New Zealand Member...... the Scottish version is alive and well and working as hard as ever with Jim at the nursery..... I hope to see them both at the Dunblane Early Bulb Day.
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Maggi, Agnes and all your friends and family, I am DEEPLY sorry to have made such a mistake. I was not aware of your name, or even of your existence, so maybe can be excused. Of course I meant OUR Agnes who, as it happens was my late mother's cousin. She had such a wide experience of little bulbs and other choice plants over 60 or more years, that her knowledge is greatly missed here.
In the meantime, I do wish the Scottish Agnes a long life and much happiness among Ardfearn's plants.
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From the Archibald's seed Muscari macrocarpum JJA690010 in bloom today in the greenhouse. Always a mix-up in my head between this and M. muscarimi.
johnw
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John, I think you mean Muscari macrocarpum
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That's nice John. Presumably it has some fragrance too, especially welcome in winter.
Both macrocarpum forms I have tend to flop around whereas your foliage seems fairly upright.
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From the Archibald's seed Muscari macrocarpon JJA690010 in bloom today in the greenhouse. Always a mix-up in my head between this and M. muscarimi.
johnw
Flora of Turkey has a problem with this.The only distinction seems that M. macrocarpum seems to grow at a lower level and is more robust which is logical given it is much warmer there. It says they were looking to rename M. muscarimi as M. racemosum which may now have been done.Mine have flowered between 10th Jan and middle of March in previous years.It is quite different to mine and those dark marks around the mouth are very attractive. Sorry I have just looked at one I have from Kath Dryden and that has dark marks,ones from my own seed have not.
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John, I think you mean Muscari macrocarpum
Indeed I did.
johnw
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That's nice John. Presumably it has some fragrance too, especially welcome in winter.
Both macrocarpum forms I have tend to flop around whereas your foliage seems fairly upright.
Ashley - I didn't get a chance to test for fragrance. That's the other mix-up - which of the two is the most fragrant. I recall one is especially good. Oh and those leaves look good now but they will shortly be flopping all about.
johnw
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[/quote]
Flora of Turkey has a problem with this.The only distinction seems that M. macrocarpum seems to grow at a lower level and is more robust which is logical given it is much warmer there. It says they were looking to rename M. muscarimi as M. racemosum which may now have been done.Mine have flowered between 10th Jan and middle of March
[/quote]
Tony,
Thanks for this information.
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I have only Muscari macrocarpum, not the other, and mine is deliciously perfumed.
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Lesley's muscari is not
Valeri Finnis because that one has has green stems.
Nor Pseudomuscari azureum because that one has striped somewhat keeled flowers.
I commented upon someones pink muscari and said that i would post my own when it came up.
I am only 8 months late ;D so now I do it
Both come from Ruksans. The first one he has found in the wild.
The second one is an old garden form that has become rare.
Today is misty and like the last few days above freezing.
Göte
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I have one that is bought as Golden Fraganse. I think it is an macrocarpum. This picture is taken in my garden last year.
And under some of my unknown.
Maybee there is anyone who cane give me the names?
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Anne,
The first one is really M.macrocarpum. The 3d may be M.armeniacum 'Blue Spike'. No ideas about the second, sorry, as there are many of a similar look.
Oleg
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here are my Muscari macrocarpum.
The first is one I bought from Kath dryden and the second is my own raising from near Marmaris with the third being a closeup of it. I have one from father east near Feithye which has not flowered yet
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Anne,
The first one is really M.macrocarpum. The 3d may be M.armeniacum 'Blue Spike'. No ideas about the second, sorry, as there are many of a similar look.
Oleg
Thank you Oleg.
I think the 3d one may bee a M.armeniacum but i am not sure it is 'Blue Spike'.
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Tony,
Does the blackish mouth appears only in cultivars or have you seen it in the wild as well?
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Oron
I have never seen it in flower in the wild so cannot answer that The only ones I have actually seen in flower are my own.It grows very low near the sea and I think it flowers very early. It is not one that grows in masses but occurs as isolated bulbs.
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Maybe I'll send Jim Archibald a picture of my one and hope he recognizes it.
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ID please?
Lesley,
Your plant (Reply #10, Page 1; reposted below) looks very like Leonid Bondarenko's M. pallens (http://www.litbulbgarden.com/ss/239.html).
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By Golly! So it does, even down to the red stems and the flower colour is just right. Thank you very much Ashley. Now I know where to look. I've found it is not particularly easy to keep, long term. It did really well for about 8 years but this last spring only one came up and it a small, non-flowering one, so I hope it isn't going to die on me completely. It has had only half a dozen seeds in all that time and they fell before I caught them but haven't germinated so far as I can tell.
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Lesley I didn't recognise yours at first because it's somewhat different to mine grown under glass (no pic to hand unfortunately). It sets viable seed if tickled (fiddly because of the constricted mouth :P). However my few bulbs are bulking up now so some can be tried outside next season. A nice thing.
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A few muscari in flower today
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This is not Muscari, this is rather Hyacinthella from northern Greece. Could anyone identify?
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Hi:
Hyacinthella leucophaea from what can be seen in the image.
Regards
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Last month I posted a pic of a little Hyacinthella in the garden ... I named it wrong :-[ Now that it has grown up a bit I can see it is Hyacinthella millingrenii, pictured below on the right. In the same shot is the plant I grow as Hyacinthella atchleyi (=Hyacinthella leucophaea - Y.P.). The latter does OK outside too and I like it better for its open mouthed, subtlely blue flowers.
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The photo above shows that greecian Hyacinthella leucophaea ssp. atchleyi looks totally different with long pedicels and without bracts
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Does anyone grow or know this tiny ?Muscari? That's my thumbnail for comparison. From top to bottom of my thumb as photographed is 2cm
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Mark,
It looks like Muscari coeleste, in order to give the corect name you should take a photo of the open flower and leaves.
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Oron, ask and you receive. The plants are flowering now
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Yes Mark,
I stick to M. coeleste...and what beautiful clump
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I begged and was turned down :'(
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REALLY nice Mark...the plants must be all of what, 10cm?
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Yes about that or smaller.
Thanks for the quick ID
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Yes Mark,
...and what beautiful clump
I'm not so sure ...... look at the damaged leaves to the lefthand side and through the others..... STRIPES!! I'm thinking virus..... now I know you'll say I'm always thinking that.... but a lot of the time I'm right...... :o
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unfortunately yes
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What a pity, they're a sweet little thing. :'(
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This is not Muscari, this is rather Hyacinthella from northern Greece. Could anyone identify?
Yuri, I wonder if you have another photo of this species?
At first look, i would say the same as Alberto, H. leucophaea, but some thing is wrong in the structure.
These bracts and form of flower, and lack of the pedical [as you have well noticed] make me think that or it is some kind of a genetic defect or a completely different species. [ it looks similar to H. siirtensis, but this one grows in E. turkey...] ???
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I begged and was turned down :'(
Better to ask for a few seeds Mark ;)
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Or to ask who has it? Anyone grow this little beauty?
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Absolutely yes, Maggi. It is unfortunate that so much of the commercial stock of many bulbs is infected. The problem is seed of them all is seldom offered.
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A picture of the plant i purchased as Hyacinthella millingenii a few years- i don't know if it is, but it's the first to flower of the several species i have. Any opinions as to its id?
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My first time ever with this genera!
By the looks of this little fella, i would say it is doing quite well for a warm climate.
Can someone tell me if it is a true M. armeniacum?
Thanks
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My first time ever with this genera!
By the looks of this little fella, i would say it is doing quite well for a warm climate.
Can someone tell me if it is a true M. armeniacum?
Thanks
It looks like the plant I know as M.armeniacum. We have it growing wild here in grassland and it is baked every summer.
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Can someone tell me if it is a true M. armeniacum?
Can someone tell me what is it a true M. armeniacum?
Surprisingly it grows everywhere except Armenia.
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How hot does it get on summer on Bulgaria?
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How hot does it get on summer on Bulgaria?
In the sun, on a hot day in summer, it can be 45C. The grassland the Muscari armeniacum grows in is parched and browned by this time of year. It should be happy with you :)
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Can someone tell me if it is a true M. armeniacum?
Can someone tell me what is it a true M. armeniacum?
Surprisingly it grows everywhere except Armenia.
My reference book says it is found from the Balkans through Turkey to the Caucasus. Does it miss Armenia?
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As described, armeniacum has broad linear leaves with a greyish cast on the outside. Otherwise, quite similar to botryoides in flower color.
Originally from Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece and Yugoslavia
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As described, armeniacum has broad linear leaves with a greyish cast on the outside. Otherwise, quite similar to botryoides in flower color.
As these?
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Yuri, what a stunning shade!
However, the little that can be seen of the leaves suggest neglectum (leaves 2-8 mm. broad, longer than the scape)
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As described, armeniacum has broad linear leaves with a greyish cast on the outside. Otherwise, quite similar to botryoides in flower color.
Originally from Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece and Yugoslavia
Intriguingly, Phillips and Rix suggest Muscari armeniacum is also found in Turkey and the Caucasus, and show plants from 2 collections in Turkey. The wild Muscari botryoides- or at least our local form- is easily recognised by its very sparsely flowered spikes, as pictured in Polunin's 'Flowers of Europe'.
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Hi:
Of course it is to be expected that other locations are given for known species.
To clarify things, armeniacum and neglectum have 3- 6 linear leaves (parallel sides), in armeniacum really broad.
In botryoides the 2-3 leaves are not linear, they are broader at the apex. Also, the leaves are shorter than the scape.
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A picture of the plant I purchased as Hyacinthella millingenii a few years- I don't know if it is, but it's the first to flower of the several species I have. Any opinions as to its id?
That looks lovely, and the short broad leaves help in that respect. One I will be seeking out.
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Thanks Anthony. It's the first to flower of the half dozen or so Hyacinthellas i have.
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A picture of the plant i purchased as Hyacinthella millingenii a few years- i don't know if it is, but it's the first to flower of the several species i have. Any opinions as to its id?
Size, leaves and habit suggest it might be as you name it but its is a much better form than the one I grow under that name.
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Thanks Tony. It came from Buried Treasure a few years ago now.
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However, the little that can be seen of the leaves suggest neglectum (leaves 2-8 mm. broad, longer than the scape)
Muscari neglectum looks different there.
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However, the little that can be seen of the leaves suggest neglectum (leaves 2-8 mm. broad, longer than the scape)
Muscari neglectum looks different there.
I agree Yuri, it is hard to distinguish blue flowers from the shades of blue in a photo as blue seems to be one of the colours that is most easily shifted, but Muscari neglectum is very easy to recognise because of the darker lower flowers.
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This was grown from SRGC seed as Muscari chalusicum (syn. M. pseudomuscari according to Brian Matthew)
Can anyone confirm please ?
Two pictures one a bit blurry but gives a good image of the leaves.
Thanks
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This was grown from SRGC seed as Muscari chalusicum (syn. M. pseudomuscari according to Brian Matthew)
Can anyone confirm please ?
Two pictures one a bit blurry but gives a good image of the leaves.
Thanks
Luc,
M. chalusicum is a synonymous for M. pseudomuscari, but I have a feeling that yours is M. azureum which has darker colored flowers and shorter leaves. it is not easy to distinguish these two.
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Muscari bicolor [Leopoldia bicolor] is in flower at the moment.
This species is endemic to the narrow coastal strip from North Egypt to S. Lebanon.
Growing in pure sand.
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Luc , my Muscari chalusicum has longer, sprawling leaves ,but more or less the same
colour as your flower ,
Otto.
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Similar in form but different colors, Muscari weissii [double S] growing in Crete, S. Greece, many of the Islands and W. Turkey.
These photos where taken in Rhodos.
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Luc, it is the most interesting shape of the flowers and raceme seen in Pseudomuscari. Is it known an origin of the seeds?
The prominent leaf venation is a feature of Hyacinthella.
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This muscari do not open its flowers at all. I have it for years but its name is lost in annales. Any suggestions?
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Hyacinthella species (lost label) today in the bulb frame.
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This muscari do not open its flowers at all. I have it for years but its name is lost in annales. Any suggestions?
Yuri, that looks like the cultivar 'Saffier', generally attributed to Muscari armeniacum.
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Hyacinthella species (lost label) today in the bulb frame.
Simon, looks to me like H. glabrescens.
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Hyacinthella species (lost label) today in the bulb frame.
Simon, looks to me like H. glabrescens.
Thanks for your help Oron.
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This was grown from SRGC seed as Muscari chalusicum (syn. M. pseudomuscari according to Brian Matthew)
Can anyone confirm please ?
Two pictures one a bit blurry but gives a good image of the leaves.
Thanks
Luc,
M. chalusicum is a synonymous for M. pseudomuscari, but I have a feeling that yours is M. azureum which has darker colored flowers and shorter leaves. it is not easy to distinguish these two.
Oron,
I am a real novice in muscari (although I like them and try to bulid up a small collection) but my recollection of M azureum is that the flowers were not as bell-shaped as in these pictures. My memory can be wrong but can you comment on that please.
Göte
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Gote,
I think this is a normal form of M. azureum in flower, quite open bell shaped, probably for this reason it was better known in the past as Hyacinthus azureus, and even two years ago i have seen bulbs still sold under this name at the flower market in Amsterdam.
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Thank you Oron,
I got a feeling of hyacinthus and remembered the old name when I saw the picture. I found an old picture of mine and they were more cylindrical. This is a better form in my taste.
Göte
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It is M. azureum I have. Quite different with Luc's species.
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Yuri's type is the one I used to have only lighter in the colour but I assume Yuri's picture is on the dark side.
Göte
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the muscari are starting to flower.Most of mine are unidentified and I have them as sp.
Muscari aucheri
Muscari commutatum
two Muscari neglectum
then four sp.
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Muscari botryoides on old dunes near the Black Sea coast.
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Tony, fantastic plants, in particular M. aucheri.
I think your 2ed photo is M. neglectum and not comutatum. [it has white teeth].
Photos 121, 130 looks like M. anatolicum. [with prominant white teeth]
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Oron
thanks for your comments,the Muscari aucheri is a nice one,not at its best as I have neglected my muscari collection until recently and I think you must be correct about my second picture.
However Muscari anatolicum is not in the Flora of Turkey and the fourth picture looks just the same as the third just a slightly smaller plant.
I know there has been much renaming much of which is very confusing. I have many more 'sp' to flower so will keep you busy identifying them
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Tony:
Muscari in cultivation is a hell of a name confusion. I have been following this thread and thinking of asking Sinchets and the other members fortunate enough to have a species growing wild in his whereabouts to collect seed for distribution. The only way to start putting some order is to start from fresh wild undisputed material.
Would this be possible, Sinchets?
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Ezeiza
I have a large collection all of known provenance from wild seed. It has been looked at by two experts both of whom disagreed with each other on some of the identifications. One then said it was pretty boring as none of them were the 'new' species. It seems every location has been given new species status on a par with crocus and narcissus.
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Tony:
Muscari in cultivation is a hell of a name confusion. I have been following this thread and thinking of asking Sinchets and the other members fortunate enough to have a species growing wild in his whereabouts to collect seed for distribution. The only way to start putting some order is to start from fresh wild undisputed material.
Would this be possible, Sinchets?
Alberto,
I must agree with you 100%, what you have just said is relevant to many other species as well,
95% of my collection is from wild origins and well documented. I think that if a collection such as this is not well documented then it does not have a botanical value and could be considered as a garden plant and in the case that the species would become extinct in the wild, it would not be replaceable.
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Ezeiza- yes of course it is possible. There are 8 species of Muscari in Bulgaria- though some of the names are not accepted as separate species elsewhere in the plant world. I agree that if everybody is growing plants and using ids based on only a few wild collections, then this makes it hard to identify slight variations of a species from other areas.
Tony -your Muscari certainly are not boring- maybe some botanists need to stop pigeonholing plants into certain species and accept they are a continuum of a species with a wide distribution. A Chihuahua is not different species of dog to a Doberman just because there are differences in size and colour. Apologies for not being a splitter and not having a vested interest in naming plant species to advance my career.
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Muscari 'Jenny Robinson' (syn. 'Baby's breath'), from Cyprus so considered to be a selection of neglectum although it looks more like armeniacum.
M. latifolium, seeds around here but is never a nuisance.
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Ashley- does Muscari armeniacum grow in Cyprus? As you say it would make more sense if it was a pale form of what can be a quite pale blue species, rather than a pale form of what is a rather dark flowered species.
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As far as I know it doesn't Simon.
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Friends, the way taxonomists look at our plants involve a bench, a a comfortable stool and a heap of dried plants. This is why the blanket is always too short or too long. When we run the Rainlily Study Group, we put together as many images of the "real things" as possible and then exchanged such material so everyone could grow it in his collection. Then we put hands at the mass of good material that was doubtful if referred to this or that known species. It was fun and we could assign them to species, see which ones merit a new identity and so on.
The work Oron and others are doing is invaluable. Besides growing healthy material (a LOT of the Muscaris and other dwarf bulbs in the trade is heavily virused) the possibility of garden hybrids is nil.
I regret we do not have Muscaris in the wild here!
best
Alberto
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Yes Alberto, I completely agree. We must also accept though that even in the wild there are chances of hyrbids and also a lot more variability to some species than humans seem willing to alllow for.
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Hyacinthella heldreichii (?) and Muscari chalusicum (?)
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Simon that hyacinthella is very nice. Where is it from?
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Hyacinthella heldreichii (?) and Muscari chalusicum (?)
Simon these plants look so happy and healthy...Bravo, I wonder if it is your -25c that makes them look this way.. ;)
I would say again H. glabrescens, this time a great dark form and yes for the second, M. chalusicum.
[ M. chalusicum is a syn. for M. pseudomuscari]
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Thanks Oron. The cold may have something to do with some of the colour intensities we are seeing.
Tony- If it is Hyacinthella glabrescens then it is from Buried Treasure. If it is H.glabrescens bought as H.heldreichii then it was either from Buried Treasure or Paul Christian. I have only had 1 form of H.glabrescens in the past and even though labels were missing and the bulbs had been disturbed by voles I tried to replant separately. Love them all though and will try more outside next year in the open garden.
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"a lot more variability to some species than humans seem willing to alllow for."
That's right but growing these natural variants with at least a known provenance will let us learn a lot more than those that appear in cultivation, most often without any useful reference, other than a fancy name.
Regards
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Yes, we agree with each other. The more forms we have in cultivation, obtained from recorded sites in the wild, the better we will understand species diversity and maybe realise that 2 'species' from the opposite ends of a range form a continuum when viewed side by side with those from intermediate sites.
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Exactly!
And these variants, continuum, etc., can not be seen in Herbariums
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I have long believed that the single most important datum to be considered in identifying plants is that associated with provenance. Names change, speculations about relationships change, notions about what are or are not significant morphological distinctions change; but the provenance, if accurate, remains the same. The very concept of species varies from taxonomist to taxonomist, but the provenance remains the same.
And we’re on the verge of a new world now with the use of global positioning satellites, at least where that mapping is available. This will allow us to associate a collected plant with a wild population with a very high degree of accuracy.
Here’s a trivial but nevertheless illustrative example of just how powerful GPS can be. A few years ago, out of the blue, I got a telephone call from a man who wanted me to identify a plant he had seen while on vacation. He sent me photos, and on the basis of the photos I was able to identify the plant. But something about that plant, and in particular the location in which he had seen it, raised some speculation on my part. I decided I had to see the plant myself.
He gave me the GPS coordinates for the site and printed a map from those; a day later I was off to see the plant. Three hours later, with a by-then stiff neck, I pulled the car off the road, got out and walked over a few yards to the site where the plant grew. And there it was, just as promised. It was a simple as that!
If I had waited a year or two to do this, I might have found a parking lot or housing development instead!
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Friends, the way taxonomists look at our plants involve a bench, a a comfortable stool and a heap of dried plants. This is why the blanket is always too short or too long. When we run the Rainlily Study Group, we put together as many images of the "real things" as possible and then exchanged such material so everyone could grow it in his collection. Then we put hands at the mass of good material that was doubtful if referred to this or that known species. It was fun and we could assign them to species, see which ones merit a new identity and so on.
The work Oron and others are doing is invaluable. Besides growing healthy material (a LOT of the Muscaris and other dwarf bulbs in the trade is heavily virused) the possibility of garden hybrids is nil.
I regret we do not have Muscaris in the wild here!
best
Alberto
I could not agree more! I always try to record the provenience of every plant I grow even if it is only "Gardencentre X".
GPS-data would really be even better.
Good work Oron. If the odd surplus seed goes into the seed eschanges I would not be sorry.
Göte
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Hyacinthella heldreichii flowering in the bulb frame- different source to previous post.
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Muscari leucostomum flowering today. I've not grown this before and I do like it. And M Baby's Breath - a ghastly name, but the flower is super.
I will be on the look out for the Hyacinthella - a lovely plant
Sue
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I agree Sue this litle clump has bulked up enough to try some out in thegarden for next year.
Also Muscari muscarimi - this one in the frame- have another lot outside but they will be later flowering.
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Great Plants Sue and Simon.
No doubt about H. heldreichii, this one is true to type!!!
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here a Muscari is flowering ( received from a nice friend )....has anybody a suggestion for a name of this species ?
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I don't know myself, but the Kisil-Dagh provenance should be a help...
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Thanks again Oron. I have had H.heldreichii from 2 sources in the past- maybe my other plant is more of an intermediate.
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Yes Simon it probably does, H. heldreichii is easy to distinguish by having only two leaves, one much bigger than the other.
Hans, in my opinion what you have there is a beautiful M. anatolicum [Cowley & Ozhatay],
a relatively new species [ 1994] from Center and S. Anatolia.
It has this pronounced open, white 'mouth', Very Nice one!!!
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Oron ,
Many thanks for your identification :D - I'm really gratefull ....
In meantime I have looked a bit , for M.anatolicum is given Sultan Daghi ....thats not far away from Kisil Dagh ...
I will try to make seeds !!!
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here a Muscari is flowering ( received from a nice friend )....has anybody a suggestion for a name of this species ?
Hans, what a nice, crisp photo - and the color harmony in those flowers is super!
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I only grow one Muscari at the moment and that is macrocarpum. I have the "normal" form which has yet to flower and a number of years back I bought "Golden Fragrance" which seems to have greener leaves but has done very well for me.
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Hans, what a nice, crisp photo - and the color harmony in those flowers is super!
Thanks Jim ;D
I'm glad if you like it !
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Exquisite Hyacinthella heldreichii forms Simon; may I ask where you got them? I have the 'split' H. lazulina coming along but it's a year or two off flowering yet.
What lovely muscari Hans and Mark. You're lucky: both times I bought 'Golden Fragrance' it turned out to be riddled with virus, so now I'm trying M. macrocarpum from seed instead.
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Exquisite Hyacinthella heldreichii forms Simon; may I ask where you got them? I have the 'split' H. lazulina coming along but it's a year or two off flowering yet.
Ashley this one came from PC Rare Plants, maybe 5 or more years ago.
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Apologies Simon; you had already mentioned the sources of these plants (in reply #125).
That dark H. glabrescens (reply #122) is particularly nice.
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No problem Ashley the first posting I wasn't too sure about, but this one had been left with its label. There should be a few more flowering soon, and by the time they are over Hyacinthella leucophaea will also be flowering in the wild.
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"GPS-data would really be even better."
Gote, GPS readings can be a bomb and must be very carefully handled. In recent years description of new species if published or available in the Internet, never include useful location data, on puprpose. To see it you have to go to the Herbarium and see it for yourself (if they let you in). Needless to say, it is to avoid that information be available to plunderers. Among very many, the example of Sternbergia candida, wiped out from the wild in a couple of years since publication is foremost. It is not an easy species in cultivation and lots of those wild bulbs plundered for sale were lost in a few years.
Besides those bulb merchants that are nice people, and basically plant lovers, you have these creeps that have no second thoughts when they know of a new or uncommon species. See the case of the Czech that was caught on the spot with hundreds of Oncocyclus plants dug from the wild for sale. This was very recent but one can't help but wonder how many times he did that before and how many people bought those wild collected plants over the years.
Our love for plants is absorbing but we are perhaps the last generation capable of doing something positive to save species. In the future, species will just disappear flooded by the population explosion. Making public strategic locations could only speed the destruction of unique plants.
Alberto
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Alberto, your mild rebuke to Göte really should have been directed to me - it was I who introduced this controversial topic.
I would like to tell two stories from my childhood and university days which touch on this issue.
As a youngster I lived in a suburban neighborhood which still included patches of undeveloped woodland. I spent my time there with my dog, collecting plants and animals. One day in my early teens, as I was returning from the woods with that day's booty, I spotted one of my adult neighbors who I knew had an interest in plants (he was a Department of Agriculture employee). I held up one of my finds, and triumphantly told him "I got the last one". He didn't say much, but the intense look of disgust he turned on me really made a very sour impression. I was disappointed and confused, and left. At that age I was largely clueless about conservation - like most people back then, I took the attitude that the world was there for my plucking. The adult had made no effort to turn this into a teaching experience for him and a learning experience for me: opportunities missed for sure.
As an adult, when I remember this day, any regrets I might have about collecting "the last one" are assuaged by the fact that the site in question has been under concrete for decades.
Now fast forward to my undergraduate years. In the past there were bogs scattered here and there in this area. Most quickly disappeared to agriculture and other development. But there was one which survived, and its location was a more-or-less open secret. It was a tiny bog, and thus knowing the approximate location was hardly enough to get you in.
One day, some of my botanists friends and I decided to visit the bog. We sought help in locating the bog from one of the botany professors. He refused to help us in any way. With that option closed, we sought out some topographical maps and charted our own route. And we did eventually find the bog.
Several years later a massive road construction project took place in the area of the bog. Run-off from the construction silted the bog, the surface level was forever changed. After the extent of the damage became apparent, a weak last-minute "save-the-bog" effort was launched; this resulted in a chain-link fence being erected around the remains of the bog - a fence soon to be broached and partially torn down by free-spirited sorts who regarded the bog as part of their personal legacy. The situation was a mess. I blame all of those who prided themselves on keeping the bog a secret for much of this. There is no doubt in my mind that had the bog been publicized and people had the chance to realize what a treasure was there, a huge public outcry might have saved it.
There is even more irony to this story. Much of the secrecy surrounding the bog was intended to prevent plunderers from collecting a certain plant there. The irony is that this plant was evidently introduced to the bog and did not grow there in the distant past.
Alberto, when you wrote "Our love for plants is absorbing but we are perhaps the last generation capable of doing something positive to save species" it reminded me a little bit of something Simon said in a recent post and of something I am beginning to think about. Simon suggested that it would ge great if more field botany could be funded (I hope I've said it right, Simon). I think it would be great if governments would set up programs to propagate native plants (either domestically or by outsourcing) likely to be of interest to avid collectors. Modern micropropagation techniques might make it possible to get thousands of such desirable plants into commerce within a few years, thus taking off the pressure on wild populations and removing much of the incentive for plunderers.
I'm convinced that wild plants need to be in the wild to be preserved; in particular, for insect pollinated plants, once you take them from their natural environment, they begin to drift genetically unless propagated only as a clone. But the standards for horticulture needn't be so high, and I'll bet many of us would be glad to have such propagated material for our gardens.
How many of you, as I did, stepped into this thinking it had something to do with gardening, only to find out that it had a lot more to do with politics?
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Alberto and Jim- I have to say I agree with both of you. I hadn't heard that Sternbergia candida had been collected to extinction in the wild- and if this is true it is appalling, as it has undoubtably been collected by people local to its wild range for sale, I guess mainly, to western Europe. The same applies to the area mentioned on another forum where a forumist describes the flowering sized bulbs of Fritillaria alburyana vanishing in the short time between his 2 visits to the site. I am sure that a lot of the large scale digging that goes on is by sellers with large nurseries back at home who can't spare the time it would take to grow from seed and bulk up and so take all they can find in the wild. Some of the responsibily must lie locally though with people who hadn't even thought anything of these 'wild flowers' until they become aware that 'westerners' will pay a fortune for them. That's economics for you and this leads into politics. I wonder how much press the Pilous story got in Turkey and whEther this has resulted in even more people realising that silly money can be made from Oncocyclus Irises. I say this based also on experiences of my one order from a certain nursery, which supplies plants which are frequently misnamed and often not even in the same genus as the plant that was ordered. I will not order again, as I was left with the sinking feeling that none of these were nursery grown plants, but were more the products of some distant hillside, where someone had been sent with a shopping list.
I agree with Jim that GPS is useful, but maybe kept to an area in a country rather than a metre quadrant. Collection data is useful not only to be bale to plot any variation in a species, but also to know what conditions any garden grown plants may be willing to take. Following from this what we then need are responsible people who do not use these sites as resources but are able to keep an eye on them as stewards.
Having lived near Sites of Special Scientific Interest near Manchester- now under motorways- I do understand how you feel Jim, about losing wild areas to development- but sadly against Politics, Conservation never wins. We once lived near a road that was widened, completely obliterating a large population of Dactylorhiza purpurella (Nothern marsh orchid). Of course no one there to remove them to a safe site because of the convoluted laws involved. They aren't rare in Britain, but such a large population is not exactly common either. Still the town has a dual carriageway now- and maybe the orchids set enough seed to move further away from the road.
By the way Jim are we allowed to ask what 'the last one' was?
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By the way Jim are we allowed to ask what 'the last one' was?
Yes. ;)
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Alberto and Jim- I have to say I agree with both of you. I hadn't heard that Sternbergia candida had been collected to extinction in the wild- and if this is true it is appalling, as it has undoubtably been collected by people local to its wild range for sale,
This is actually not true and the plant still exists in quite large numbers but it was collected soon after its discovery in quantity and was on sale within a couple of years.
Also it was not collected by local people but by N. Europeans who ravaged the sites.
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Some number of years ago we bought a packet of "yellow Sternbergia " bulbs from a garden centre. When the sorry-looking dried bulbs eventually came to life and grew , it turned out they were Sternbergia candida! So it seems that these lovely plants were being dug wild to be sold in bulk, and without even the cachet and concomitant high price their rarity could have commanded .... that added insult to their injury, did it not?
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I hope it didn't sound like I was being some kind of racist by saying 'local people'. Anywhere in the world where there is something to sell there are always enterprising people willing to sell things- legally or otherwise. If it is locals or 'species' tourists collecting in bulk it is still morally and legally wrong, but if there is a market it will happen.
The question is: What do we as plant buyers do to stop it happening?
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Maggi I think that also was reported in an AGS journal.
I bought some dried tubers of C.hederifolium back in the early 80s, 2 were cilicium, 2 were mirabile.
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Yes, Mark, I believe that is was; we realised we were not the only ones to get these posh imposters.
Woolworths used to be an amazing source of wrongly named bulbs too... often varieties far rarer than they were meant to be.
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I think it would be great if governments would set up programs to propagate native plants (either domestically or by outsourcing) likely to be of interest to avid collectors.
I remember reading years ago that such schemes had been set up in Turkey. I don't know how successful they were or whether they still exist.
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I hope it didn't sound like I was being some kind of racist by saying 'local people'. Anywhere in the world where there is something to sell there are always enterprising people willing to sell things- legally or otherwise. If it is locals or 'species' tourists collecting in bulk it is still morally and legally wrong, but if there is a market it will happen.
The question is: What do we as plant buyers do to stop it happening?
Simon, your question, which is certainly an important one, nevertheless reminds me of the issues which arise in the sale of pelts of protected cats: surely, some people must be thinking something on the order of "well, they're already dead, there's no harm now in putting them to good use". As the old saying goes, it's an ill wind which blows nobody good.
Most of us live in cultures which celebrate competition. We learn to distinguish ourselves from the crowd by the eclecticism we bring to much that we do. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people who think that because they possess a rare plant (as in rare = better), that makes them a better person. If more of us were to address the obvious fallacy in that line of thinking, it might make a difference.
How do we respond to those who rightfully decry scorch earth collecting when, a few miles down the road the same species is being plowed for crops or buried under asphalt and housing or being ingested by the local goats? Human need will prioritize the response, and it's unlikely that the concerns of gardeners and the fate of plants will be at the top of the list.
I'm reminded of a story I read in a south Asian newspaper: it seems that in one of the zoos the crocodile was starving. It turned out that the keeper was selling the crocodile's fish ration to the starving local people. I'm sure if some local government were to pay a guard to watch over the oncocyclus iris fields all year, day and night, that guard's pay would be lower than what some collectors would be willing to bribe to gain access to the plants for a while. And no doubt when some deep pocketed developer wants to build on the oncocyclus iris fields, the head of the agency responsible for guarding them will accept a huge bribe, and then depart for some congenial country without an extradition treaty.
And suppose some of those irises made it into the garden of an experienced local grower. Suppose that grower was able to keep the plants going long after their wild progenitors had been annihilated. That grower will grow old and die. There's a good chance that his heirs will regard his garden as so much clutter that detracts from the house's market value. In a weekend the bulldozers will come in and "clean it up".
When I'm garden visiting and the owner is showing off the latest rarity scraped off some Chinese hillside, I'm not going to be impolite and castigate them for participating in the trade in collected plants. Who knows, they might be the one person who succeeds in establishing that species in cultivation. But in my mind, I see them feeding their pet thylacines and Carolina parakeets.
I found an old cookbook recently which included a recipe for prairie chicken. The recipe came from the daughter of a man who claimed to have killed thousands of them in his youth. The prairie chicken persists, but its eastern form, the heath hen, is gone forever. I wonder what recipe was used for heath hen?
I'm going on too much, but all of this reminds me of one more thing. Several years ago some friends and I were traveling on a road which took us over a low mountain (the only kind we have here) which was in a protected forest. As we surmounted the crest of the mountain, we were thrilled to see a ruffed grouse standing in the road in the lane beside us. As we passed, we got a very good look at it - the first time any of us had ever seen a live ruffed grouse. A moment later an approaching speeding car hit the grouse and obliterated it. A moment before it had been this magnificent creature; a moment later it was gone, replaced by a swirl of feathers. We just looked at one another: no one could think of anything to say.
To the extent that it has to be accomplished in the presence of human populations, the preservation of our natural heritage more and more seems to be a daunting challenge.
We are the problem: there are many parallels between the illegal international trade in protected wildlife and plants and the illegal international trade in drugs. The trade exists because we want it and support it. Doesn't the market always win (he says as he listens to yet another radio account of AIG's excesses)?
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Simon
I don't know how widely the Pilous story was in the Turkish press, but there have certainly been some changes in the actions of the authorities since my previous visit in November 2007. Then we moved freely and without challenge wherever we went. If fact I'd never been stopped on any previous visit. However, during this last trip of two weeks in February and March we must have been stopped at least 6 times by the Jandarma. This was not routine by road blocks but spontaneous visits while we were botanising. They were always polite with hand shakes all round, but they were very interested in what we were doing. However, no searches of our vehicle or luggage were made, but I'm sure if we'd been digging plants we would have been in a very awkward situation. So, not a good idea to carry a trowell...... This was SW Turkey - no idea what it was like elsewhere. However, the level of authority interest came as a surprise even to our Turkish botanist guide. talking about this to a friend, I was told that even foreign botanical instututes are having problems getting live material out at present. Let's hope there are some more heavy fines dished out - quickest way to stop the rot.
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Sounds like a vey positive step. Maybe the next step would be to grow the plants local to their areas of distribution, for sale to the 'western' markets - cutting out any middlemen.
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It's difficult to know whether Pilous is a one off but even if he is not it seems unlikely that commercial collecting today is on the scale that it was prior to the 1st World War - though I think Cyclamen were heavily collected in more recent times. Those interested might care to look at chap 5 of Growing Bulbs by Martyn Rix where he discusses nursery catalogues of the period. Although some bulbs were cultivated, many or most were wild collected in large numbers. The figures he quotes from a 1909 catalogue are dramatic: Chionodoxa lucilae - 7/6 to 14 shillings per 1000; Fritillaria whittallii - £2 per 1000; Galanthus elwesii - £45 per 100,000; Sternbergia clusiana - £2 per 1000. Rix comments that it is difficult to assess the effect on wild populations of collecting on this scale - "Snowdrops & Chionodoxa were probably seriously depleted in western Turkey, other genera less so".
If we make a rough conversion to the equivalent in today's money, these plants were incredibly cheap.
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I think it would be great if governments would set up programs to propagate native plants (either domestically or by outsourcing) likely to be of interest to avid collectors.
I remember reading years ago that such schemes had been set up in Turkey. I don't know how successful they were or whether they still exist.
I think the start was sucessful and a very laudable initiative. RHS was behind it. If it is dead, it is probably because of the CITES restrictions on Galanthus which was the main crop.
There used to be a man in the Kibbuz of Tirat Zwi who was growing the local Oncos in fields. He did some hybridizing and also sold a lot of seed. I suggested that he contact one of the European societies (which will remain unnamed) He said that he had sold to them but they thought he was too expensive so they were not worth the effort.
Göte
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Oh dear- if the EU can set limits on how much wheat should cost, maybe we should have CAP take a look at Oncos too!
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"GPS-data would really be even better."
Gote, GPS readings can be a bomb and must be very carefully handled.
Our love for plants is absorbing but we are perhaps the last generation capable of doing something positive to save species. In the future, species will just disappear flooded by the population explosion. Making public strategic locations could only speed the destruction of unique plants.
Alberto
I agree that exact location data of threatened plants should not be handed out freely but all plants are not threatened. Some plants that we grow with difficulty in our own climate are weeds in others. I may be too trusting but I tend to think that most people are both honest and able to understand which data should be censored. The fact that a GPS-receiver can get you to within a few meters does not mean that we need to publish the last digits. To know within a few miles where something grew is valuable information regarding climate, aspect and habitat.
These questions are not so simple as some people seem to believe (I do not mean you Alberto) I am afraid that I repeat what has already been well said by Jim, Simon and others.
Any one, going on one of the plant expeditions arranged and/or supported by garden societies, can go back later and dig the plants in question. Are we to prohibit travelling?
If plants are to "disappear flooded by population" would it not be a good thing to save propagation material of them to our gardens? Is that not to "do something positive to save the species"?
Many people now claim that Mangroves in south east Asia are destroyed by shrimp farmers and that we should not eat the shrimps. Most of the forests that once covered Europe have been destroyed by potato and grain farmers. Should we stop eating bread and potatoes? Somehow it seems to me that we try to prevent people of other nations to do what our own ancestors did - are we taking on "The white mans burden" in disguise?
I can see nothing wrong if bulbs of Sternbergia candida are collected and sold IF IT IS DONE IN A SUSTAINABLE WAY. Just as my neighbours, I collect Picea excelsa and Pinus silvestris on my own ground and sell them for profit. In my own interest I do it in a way that does not deplete the source but is sustainable. If a Greek farmer is able to harvest Sternbergias and sell he will both make sure no bulbs are stolen and that the population is not destroyed. If we refuse to buy the bulbs, we turn the farmers valuable crop into a weed that is spurned by his livestock and thus in his interest to eradicate. (I assume Sternbergias like other Amaryllidaceae are not eaten)
If a Turkish farmer were able to harvest and sell his surplus of bulbs he would make more money on that than he does on his goats today. He cannot do it because of the legal hassle so he lets his goats kill the bulbs. Thus the flora of his landscape partly looks like the flora of a golf green.
The thickest stand of Dactylorhiza I have ever seen was on a Catalan roadbank. These banks were managed in a way that made some of them into orchid habitats.
Some twenty years ago I managed to send seed of a Serapias to a Swedish specialist. He still grows the species after sucessful germination. I was also watching a population of a rare Ophrys but the day before I was to collect some seeds a sheperd had passed and there was not a single seed left. Had I dug a tuber and sent to Sweden, my friend would have now grown that too.
What is happening is that authorities and (sorry but I see it that way) societies try to apply measures suitable to animals also on plants where they become partly counterproductive.
Göte.
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I don't know how widely the Pilous story was in the Turkish press, but there have certainly been some changes in the actions of the authorities since my previous visit in November 2007. Then we moved freely and without challenge wherever we went. If fact I'd never been stopped on any previous visit. However, during this last trip of two weeks in February and March we must have been stopped at least 6 times by the Jandarma. This was not routine by road blocks but spontaneous visits while we were botanising. They were always polite with hand shakes all round, but they were very interested in what we were doing. However, no searches of our vehicle or luggage were made, but I'm sure if we'd been digging plants we would have been in a very awkward situation. So, not a good idea to carry a trowell...... This was SW Turkey - no idea what it was like elsewhere. However, the level of authority interest came as a surprise even to our Turkish botanist guide. talking about this to a friend, I was told that even foreign botanical instututes are having problems getting live material out at present. Let's hope there are some more heavy fines dished out - quickest way to stop the rot.
Reported quite widely in Turkish Press, David, see references to this is the Iris pages.
N.B.
As has been stated before, the SRGC maintains that any collecting must be done responsibly and in a sustainable manner to conform with any local and international rules and regulations.
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Maggie,
The fact that we abide the laws does not mean that we cannot criticise them. Criticism of laws and regulations is one of the most basic elements of democracy.
Göte
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Some number of years ago we bought a packet of "yellow Sternbergia " bulbs from a garden centre. When the sorry-looking dried bulbs eventually came to life and grew , it turned out they were Sternbergia candida! So it seems that these lovely plants were being dug wild to be sold in bulk, and without even the cachet and concomitant high price their rarity could have commanded .... that added insult to their injury, did it not?
Decades ago, Maggi, I had a similar experience, although I was not so lucky as you were.
I had noticed one year that the Sternbergia bulbs on sale in the local garden centers were of two sorts. One matched the bulb of the typical garden form of Sternbergia lutea, often with a flat side and with a shiny blackish-brown papery tunic. The others were more rounded and with a matte surface.
Curious about this difference, I picked out the odd looking bulbs. What a nice surprise these turned out to be: Sternbergia clusiana! For the next several years, I tried to arrive at the garden centers as soon as autumn bulbs were put out for sale and pick out more of the Sternbergia clusiana bulbs. I also noticed that these were more likely to attempt to flower from the dry bulb than S. lutea.
Sternbergia clusiana grew well here and for several years I got good seed annually. Unfortunately, the story has a sad end. It turns out that Sternbergia clusiana in our climate is very vulnerable to bulb fly. Even the old bulbs were sometimes destroyed, and seedlings didn't have a chance.
Although I no longer grow it, to this day Sternbergia clusiana is my favorite. It would be so nice to acquire it again. Every once and a while I take out my quarter-century-old slides to try to relive the old days.
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Göte, of course that is the case.
I merely state the received stance of this Club, that the SRGC in no way condones any illegal activity whatsoever.
We are all fortunate here, SRGC Members or not, to be able to state our opinions and discuss matters of all sorts, with the proviso that we remain courteous to our fellows as we so do.
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Some number of years ago we bought a packet of "yellow Sternbergia " bulbs from a garden centre. When the sorry-looking dried bulbs eventually came to life and grew , it turned out they were Sternbergia candida! So it seems that these lovely plants were being dug wild to be sold in bulk, and without even the cachet and concomitant high price their rarity could have commanded .... that added insult to their injury, did it not?
Decades ago, Maggi, I had a similar experience, although I was not so lucky as you were.
I had noticed one year that the Sternbergia bulbs on sale in the local garden centers were of two sorts. One matched the bulb of the typical garden form of Sternbergia lutea, often with a flat side and with a shiny blackish-brown papery tunic. The others were more rounded and with a matte surface.
Curious about this difference, I picked out the odd looking bulbs. What a nice surprise these turned out to be: Sternbergia clusiana! For the next several years, I tried to arrive at the garden centers as soon as autumn bulbs were put out for sale and pick out more of the Sternbergia clusiana bulbs. I also noticed that these were more likely to attempt to flower from the dry bulb than S. lutea.
Sternbergia clusiana grew well here and for several years I got good seed annually. Unfortunately, the story has a sad end. It turns out that Sternbergia clusiana in our climate is very vulnerable to bulb fly. Even the old bulbs were sometimes destroyed, and seedlings didn't have a chance.
Although I no longer grow it, to this day Sternbergia clusiana is my favorite. It would be so nice to acquire it again. Every once and a while I take out my quarter-century-old slides to try to relive the old days.
Interesting , Jim, that you have had the chance to buy "loose" Sternbergia buklbs.... they have only ever been available in the UK garden centres in pre-packs, as far as I know, and then only infrequently. ???
Another case of the pests, in the form of the bulb fly, making a target of a favourite! >:( Though I suspect that our peception of this perversity among pest is highly coloured by our increased attention to certain species over the very readily available types! ::) :-\
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I have lots of muscari in flower now,so here are the first ten followed by a further five. I realise that muscari make galanthus look riveting so I shall not be offended if somebody says'for pitys sake no more'
Muscari armeniacum
Muscari aucheri
Muscari latifolium two pictures
Muscari macrocarpum two forms
Muscari sp from four locations
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the next five all sp.
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You have some real beauties there Tony 8)
That latifolium looks much darker than the usual commercial form; is it?
Should you ever have a few seeds to spare (of any of them) I'd be delighted to give them a home ;)
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Ashley
the latifolium is from seed I collected in 1996 between Can and Yenice in Turkey.
You are welcome to seeds
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I have lots of muscari in flower now,so here are the first ten followed by a further five. I realise that muscari make galanthus look riveting so I shall not be offended if somebody says'for pitys sake no more'
Galanthus are all white - at least muscari are not all blue!
I would be happy to give a home to 55, 65, 66, 76,102 if seed was available of any of them.
It is always interesting to see your well photographed plants. Your collection and the records you keep about them are a great resource. (You put me to shame :-\)
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Many thanks Tony. I'll PM you closer to the time.
What a fine collection. Presumably identification of some of these must wait until the taxonomy settles down. However if the 'splitters' win out then we may have (almost ::)) as much fun as the galanthophiles ;) ;D
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I found an old cookbook recently which included a recipe for prairie chicken. The recipe came from the daughter of a man who claimed to have killed thousands of them in his youth. The prairie chicken persists, but its eastern form, the heath hen, is gone forever. I wonder what recipe was used for heath hen?
Jim, this reminded me of one of my favourite short stories ( S/F) 'The Ugly Chickens'.
The story had a profound effect on me, still does really.
http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~vpatel05/pub/sciencefictionreport.htm
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I enjoy looking at the muscari. Galanthus are less interesting to me personally.
Does anyone have pictures of the other scented yellow/white one, M. moshatum (I thought I read about a white and grey form?). It seems less common than M.macrocarpum.
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Tony,
Great collection!!!
I can only repeat Tony G. to say how important it is to have the original location of the plant, in many cases it makes the work of identification much much easier and in my opinion it gives the plant a 'pedigree' that makes it much more precious in botanical terms.
Mentioning identifications I'll need to take a day off to find some names here... ;)
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Todays offering. The first is Bellevalia pycnantha (this is incorrect my apologies see later posting )and the rest are Muscari sp.
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the rest for today
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What a collection! How are you growing them--- under glass ?
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Tony
You have the wrong species under B. pycantha...
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Tony
You have the wrong species under B. pycantha...
Oron
I can only say that my expert said that is what it is.It has the correct leaves and came from the right place. I just grow them.I wish I had just called it sp. like the rest!!
Maggi they are in two frames so yes under glass.
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Do you think they would be hardy outside, Tony.... or is it the wet you are keeping off them?
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Sorry, that wasn't my intention. :(
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Sorry, that wasn't my intention. :(
Oron
I am really not offended,it is just a discussion.I collected them in an area where pycnantha is dominant and so it was assumed that is what they are. I really have no idea on muscari which seem totally confusing. I have looked at other pictures and I can see that you are correct but what they are I have no idea
Maggi I grow my bulbs under glass just to keep track of them and it is hopeless in the garden ,the labels get lost. They are all hardy.
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Maggi I grow my bulbs under glass just to keep track of them and it is hopeless in the garden ,the labels get lost. They are all hardy.
Good to know.... I had thought/hoped as much since we have a couple in the glass house that I would like to rehome outside.
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another half dozen muscari.
The first is Bellavalia pycnantha with a total apology to Oron.When I posted this before he said it was wrong and I said it was not. He was completely correct and I was wrong.It was clearly not the right species. I had another species in the same pot which was flowering first. This has now been removed.The perils of random seed collecting.
Bellavalia pycnantha
Muscari latifolium album this is a single bulb which has never sets seed or made an off set.
four Muscari sp.
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Tony,
Trying to give some names,
I think the 3ed is M. armeniacum
the 4th M. bourgaei
the last looks like M. neglectum
Regarding the fifth im not sure, is the one leaf a permanent fact or is it a young plant?
Again great collection, the white latifolium is stuning!!!
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Hyacinthella pallens and Muscari grandifolium (?) earlier today.
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Some more mislabelled Muscari in the bulb frame.
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Absolutely Oron, the white latifolium is a beauty. Did it turn up in a batch of seedlings Tony?
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All those fantastic muscaries and near-muscaris reinforces my belief that they are far too neglected.
Thank you guys for showing them.
Göte
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Absolutely Oron, the white latifolium is a beauty. Did it turn up in a batch of seedlings Tony?
Lesley yes one odd one.As I said no seed and no off sets!
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Tony,
What a bummer. At least if you had two of them you could consider twin scaling or something to try to get yourself a clump. With only one bulb there's always so much more nervousness. Hopefully for your sake it produces at least an offset as a backup for you one of these years. Then you can have them in 2 different places so that there's more insurance.
Enjoying all these Muscari pics. Some wonderful ones I have certainly never seen nor heard of before. I too loved that white latifolium..... looks very special. 8)
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Well I didn't put a fiver on the National, but the same money did buy me three pots of grape hyacinths at a local garden centre: Muscari pycnantha, M. latifolia and M. 'Valerie Finnis'. Three x 6" pots with at least 8 flowering bulbs in each for £5 seemed quite reasonable?
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A very good return for your investment, Anthony.... and a bit more lasting , I hope!
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It's amazing what can be planted in a space once occupied by a 2m2 Daphne cneorum!
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Following on the albino theme, we found these wild Muscari commutatum album in Greece- seed pods were present ;)
Sorry for the picture quality, it was dusk and a flash was used.
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Very interesting discussion about plants and their saving and losing!
I also like the pictures from all the different kinds
Here are some pics from Portugal Serra de Aire and all from a small place. Hopefully not soon to be a house since it is hopefully protected but we will know next time we visit.
30*30 m and they did look very different but might all be the same?
I will see if I can dig any information about what it may be. So far I do not know.
Kind regards
Joakim
Edit later it seems to be Muscari comosum.
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It seems to be Muscari comosum in different colours and stages.
Pleas feel free to correct.
Kind regards
Joakim
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Here are the three Muscari spp. I got for a fiver at Greenyards Garden Centre the other day: Mm 'Valerie Finnis'; pycnantha and latifolia.
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A few pix below of Muscari macrocarpum, photographed in early March on the rocky coast at Physalis, SW of Antalya in Turkey. The rusty looking rock that they are growing on is serpentinite.
This locality is given in the Turkish flora as particular for this plant and does not give any other muscari there. To me, this does not look like M macrocarpum - compare with the much bolder plant shown at the Edinburgh Show last Saturday. Also the colour of that flower is much more yellow, with a mucky purple-brown upper part than the ones I picture which as you can see are pale blue with pale yellow. In fact, my plants look more like the other plant in the same exhibit from Edinburgh as M moschata. I've seen a number of other M macrocarpum in cultivation and they all look like the Edinburgh plant.
Any thoughts, folk?
Maggie: any chance you could copy across your picture(s) from the Edinburgh show to make comparison easier? Thanks.
Edit by DaveM: So, Muscari muscarimi is the correct name here.
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Dave,
This is Muscari muscarimi, it grows in the coastal areas of Antalya.
Great photos!!!
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I agree with Oron, David..... another case of the plants not reading the books? ;D
There is a more creamy yellow form of Muscari muscarimi that iscloser in appearance to M. macrocarpum.
Here are the Muscari from Edinburgh..... first two pix are of the same potful
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Interesting, Oron and Maggie
A few miles inland at no great altitude from this coastal site we looked for M muscarimi. There were a few a week or so away from flowering, and we did comment that the plants on the coast looked more like them. Yet we were clearly conned by the flora!! Shows that we shouldn't take too much notice sometimes ;D ;D ;D
Thanks both
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A mention of useful links for anyone new to these little bulbs.....
http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~hennessy/index.htm
http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~hennessy/firstpage.htm .... home of Martin Philippo's Muscaripages
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Muscari ...... the PBS pages are a useful resource for all manner of bulbs.
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This is a wonderful, large, robust species, Muscari longipes [Leopoldia longipes] in Israel it can be seen in the Negev desert and has a wide distribution in Syria ,SE Turkey, Iran and Iraq.
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Amazing plant!
Oron, can you give an approximate height, please?
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Dave ,
Mature plants can reach more than 30cm and 8-9 cm wide at the base of the inflorescens, a real giant in Muscari terms.
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Thanks Oron for this as Dave say amazing plant.
Every week a new and never seen species.
The ground looks sandy. Is this the habitat of Muscari longipes ?
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Uli, Longipes subsp. longipes grows in sandy soils while Longipes ssp. negevensis grows in more solid, rocky soils.
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Uli, Longipes subsp. longipes grows in sandy soils while Longipes ssp. negevensis grows in more solid, rocky soils.
A stunning species. A whole new slant on Muscari.
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Wow, I love that longipes. Amazing for a Muscari, and something that would be excellent in collections to just show what they CAN be like. ;D ;) And beautiful in it's own right too!!
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For the life of me I can't remember if it was here in another thread- but is Leopoldia still being accepted as a synonym for some Muscari? - I say this as I have heard of Leopoldia longipes- and then realised it had to be the Muscari longipes shown here.
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Hi Oron:
We have received seeds of Muscari/Leopoldia longipes but could never obtain any germination. Do you think this was due to the seed being old? Is this species peculiar in their germination process?
Thanks
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Hi Alberto,
I have germinated this species only once but I remember it was easy and a fast germination.
Since it is a semidesert species I would think seeds can last for some years as long as they are kept dry.
The reason in my opinion might be that they were overwatered.
In its habitat this species receives only 80-120mm of annual rains and is sensitive to access of water.
Plants from Turkish origin might do much better since they probably get more rains.
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For the life of me I can't remember if it was here in another thread- but is Leopoldia still being accepted as a synonym for some Muscari? - I say this as I have heard of Leopoldia longipes- and then realised it had to be the Muscari longipes shown here.
Simon,
This genus was neglected for too long and as far as I know no one took the job of reviewing the names.
There are 4 different groups in this genus, some of the species names have been accepted in the past, for example. M. comosum, ex Leopoldia comosa, but many others still have two names as in the case of L. longipes, M. longipes.
Personally I write Muscari... and the synonymous as well.
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Thanks Oron- I thought at first reading it was a new species in Muscari, but the longipes part sounded familiar so I googled it. I've grown Leopoldia longipes from seed. Although it came to Bulgaria with me it hasn't flowered here yet. I guess it must be the type form, not ssp negevensis, as it came from Mike Salmon of Monocot Nursery- but he doesn't list a collection location.
Thanks
Simon
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The promise of things to come Bellevalia/ Leopoldia/ Muscari? sarmatica- very close to Muscari/ Leopoldia/ Bellevalia longipes in form- but with pedicels not extending so much in fruit.
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Oh, a flowering pineapple!! Cute!! ;) Look at those hairs on the leaf margins.... nice!
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Very nice one Simon, love the pink color on it.
It is Bellevalia, a genus by its own. [No synonimuos this time ;)]
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I am hoping it stops being bashful and puts on a bit of height in the next few days.
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Simon
that is the nice thing about it, this compact growth,
Any way much better looking than this Bellevalia longipes that is 60cm high and 40 at the base of the inflorescence.
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Yes. the B.longipes does actually look rather comical like that, maybe a child drawing their version of B.sarmatica- I say that as an ex teacher of course!
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Two rare muscari:
M. sivrihisardaglarensis described by Turkish botanists, growing on Sivrihisardag
Another - one of the rarest and the best - Muscari adilii known only from 3 localities in each around 100 specimens only. On the first picture as it looks in wild at seed time, on second its seedlings in my collection. I collected 10 seeds and others saw around original plants. It grows on pure white chalkstone slopes. They bloomed in the third spring and now I have second generation of seedlings and hope to offer them next year. It was offered by P. Christian last year but description in his catalogue didn't match with how looks original plant, so I'm doubtful about correct naming,
Janis
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Janis
Both are superb!!!
It is the first time i see a photo of these two species.
It seems M. adillii is very floriferuos, can you tell the altitude of where it is found growing.[ not the location]
Thank you very much for showing these.
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Muscari adilii today and Bellevalia crassa in garden and in wild (another great rariety earlier known only from one locality but our team found another locality for it)
Janis
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Janis
Both are superb!!!
It is the first time i see a photo of these two species.
It seems M. adillii is very floriferuos, can you tell the altitude of where it is found growing.[ not the location]
Thank you very much for showing these.
Muscari adilii - locus classicus, 990 m
Janis
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Some great pics Janis. Is the B.crassa from seed? If so how long should I expect to wait between seed germination and flowering?
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Oron, thanks for your comments. Yet, the seed must have been old in all cases. We have many desert species and they are grown in pure drainage material with no problems.
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At the risk of bringing this back down to earth with a large bump- Muscari 'Baby's Breath' (?)
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But thanks all the same Simon. I've just bought this so am pleased to see what it is like. I had expected it to be paler though.
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I had expected it to be paler though.
Yes mine (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2883.msg81909;topicseen#msg81909)'s paler but could be wrong or a seedling, not least because it lacks the reputed scent. That's a nice one Simon.
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But thanks all the same Simon. I've just bought this so am pleased to see what it is like. I had expected it to be paler though.
Here is a picture of it, I made last week in the Connoisseur Collection.
And for comparing one of M. Valerie Finnis too.
Muscari Baby's Breath
Muscari Valerie Finnis
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Maybe my mistake- I wasn't sure so I added a question merk. The other pics I saw online for Valerie Fnnis were also pale, but also said it was a better plant as the leaves came up later with the flowers and were less straggly. Mine has had leaves for a while and they are very straggly now it has started to flower. The other option is that they could be seedlings.
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Thanks Luit. These look more or less identical ??? ... and they're not even green and white ;D
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Luit, i must agree with Ashley, they seems to be the same cultivar... ??? [But a very nice one]
Staying with Bellevalia, here is B. hermonis, a colorfull species that blooms soon after snow melts,
usually at altitudes of above 1700m.
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Ashley and Oron, I agree with you both. I don't see the difference either! ??? ;D
I know that Muscari Valerie Finnis is having Plant Breeders Rights and may not be propagated and sold free in the trade.
The Muscari Baby's Breath was raised (found) by an English woman named Jenny Robinson and this Muscari
was offered first in the trade by Broadleigh Gardens.
Jenny Robinson has stated that there is a difference between both. At least she has told this
to the PBR holder of Muscari Valerie Finnis.
May be there is someone out there who can tell us more who Jenny Robinson is??
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I just found out that Jenny Robinson was the former Holder of the National Muscari Collection.
I read it in the RHS trial pages and here is the link to have a look at it.
https://www.rhs.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/8FC5E3C3-53A6-4EF2-93B1-FC1C65ED169D/0/hyacinthaceae05.pdf (https://www.rhs.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/8FC5E3C3-53A6-4EF2-93B1-FC1C65ED169D/0/hyacinthaceae05.pdf)
The extract I copied here:
Muscari ‘Jenny Robinson’ (syn. ‘Baby’s Breath’)
Plants of this cultivar were entered in the trial as ‘Baby’s
Breath’, however, this is a translation of a Greek vernacular
name for the plant and as such is unacceptable under the
rules of the International Code of Nomenclature for
Cultivated Plants. After discussion with the former Muscari
National Plant Collection® holder, Jenny Robinson, who
introduced this form from Cyprus, it was agreed to name it
after her. The species to which this cultivar belongs has not
yet been established; its origin suggests it should be a
variant of M. neglectum, although it looks more like a form
of M. armeniacum which is not known to grow in Cyprus
So M. Baby Breath should be named as M Jenny Robinson now according to RHS.
But I still don't see any difference ;D ;D ;D
and the trial tells nothing about M. Valerie Finnis, just in a little blue bulb selection the following note:
Muscari ‘Jenny Robinson’ AGM Autumn S & OG A very pale Muscari which has dense racemes of soft powdery
(syn. ‘Baby’s Breath’) blue flowers, similar to ‘Valerie Finnis’ in colour but slightly paler.
(8) The leaves are different from those of ‘Valerie Finnis’, being shorter
and during the trial period they remained in better condition
through the winter and early spring. Scented.
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Thanks for this comment Luit,
What a confusion... ;D
It does look more of M. armeniacum by the dense and and more horizontal, strait flowers.
It is already difficult to distinguish between some of the species, think of cultivars.... ;)
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Well Lesley- i hope you like your Muscari 'Whatever they turn out to be', I quite like my Muscari 'Whatever they are'. Think I'll stick with 'Baby's breath', as it has no PBR's on it ;) ;)
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Well Lesley- i hope you like your Muscari 'Whatever they turn out to be', I quite like my Muscari 'Whatever they are'. Think I'll stick with 'Baby's breath', as it has no PBR's on it ;) ;)
Aah, you mean Jenny Robinson ? ;D ;D ;D
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This should be Muscari species nova 'Sky Blue' (from Janis) flowering now in the garden.
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Janis , Bellevalia crassa , what a superb plant in flower and in seed !
Lucky those who ordered seed from Archibald 2 years ago .
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Janis , Bellevalia crassa , what a superb plant in flower and in seed !
Lucky those who ordered seed from Archibald 2 years ago .
And even luckier those who ordered bulbs from Janis two years ago ;)
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Simon,
Nice 'Sky Blue'. Do you have 'Dark Eyes' as well? I bought both of them this year so it is lovely to see them. Not even leaves up on those ones here as yet I think, although a lot of the Muscari have had leaves up for a while.
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Yes Paul, I have 'Dark Eyes', 'White-rose Beauty' and 'Early Rose' all out there somewhere - all lovely, 'quiet' little plants. :)
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I have one I bought as 'Rose Beauty', which I think was white fading to pink..... I wonder if it was supposed to be "White-rose beauty"? What is 'Dark Eyes' like? Descriptions in catalogues are not quite the same as seeing it yourself, which is why I am asking.
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I have one I bought as 'Rose Beauty', which I think was white fading to pink..... I wonder if it was supposed to be "White-rose beauty"? What is 'Dark Eyes' like? Descriptions in catalogues are not quite the same as seeing it yourself, which is why I am asking.
Paul, here are two pics of Muscari Dark Eyes (Conn. Coll.)
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Paul, by 'Rose Beauty' do you mean 'Early Rose' from Janis? If so it is slightly pinker than 'Whit-rose Beauty'- sorry I have no pics.
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Muscari armeniacum 'Saphier' today in the main garden.
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Marcus Harvey listed 'Sky Blue' and 'Dark Eyes' as selections of the same species nova, this year but you Simon, have 'Dark Eyes' as a selection of M. aucheri. In your picture, it looks just like the regular old (and rampant) grape hyacinth.
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Sorry Lesley, the 'Dark Eyes' pic was posted by Luit. Mine is from Janis, where it was listed as a selection of his Muscari species nova. I haven't posted a pic of it.
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Simon,
I bought it as 'Rose Beauty', so I don't know more than that. Maybe it is 'Whit-rose Beauty'? I really don't know, which was sort of why I was asking. Is there any one named 'Rose Beauty'?
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Sorry Paul, I just know of 'White-rose Beauty' from Janis.
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Thanks Simon.
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Here are some Bellevalia that are in flower now. I have many species that are still seedlings and others that have taken a year or more off. These are two (and Muscari below) of my other favorite genera, along with the South African members of the family, especially Ledebouria, Drimiopsis, and Resnova.
Bellevalia pycnantha ex Archibalds
Bellevalia romana
Bellevalia dubia ex Archibalds
Aaron Floden
Knoxville, TN
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I agree Aaron, Bellevalia is a great genus and on the whole easy from seed ;)
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And some Muscari....
Muscari arm. ex Gul ex Archibalds in Kansas near-neutral pH dark clay in the pink picture, in TN red acid clay in the pale, rose-white picture.
Muscari botryoides? pale form, a spontaneous seedling of the yard "weed" already here when I moved in.
Muscari muscarimi
Aaron Floden
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Aaron,
Nice pink and white combination. Beautiful. And I love the flower form on the Muscari muscarimi.... fascinating! 8)
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Aaron,
Great plants,
I can just echo Paul, the pink forms and the muscarimi with such a pronounced mouth are real beauties.
Can you give some indications regarding the temperatures in your area , winter and summer.
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I am most interested to see the colour differences wrought by the differing soil conditions on the Muscari armeniacum (ex Gul ex Archibalds) .
Aaron, do you grow Alrawia bella? we lost it and I wondered if you or other forumists were growing it?
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not very exciting,probably botanical interest only
Bellavalia trifoliata
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not very exciting,probably botanical interest only
Bellavalia trifoliata
Its a very dull day at the office ... but I'm still having trouble getting excited, even botanically :-X
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Sometimes Tony there are plants you just have because you like a particular genus. It's not as exciting as some, but it's a Bellevalia ;)
I'm excited to find not all of my Bellevalia pycnantha were eaten :)
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Sorry Lesley, the 'Dark Eyes' pic was posted by Luit. Mine is from Janis, where it was listed as a selection of his Muscari species nova. I haven't posted a pic of it.
So it was. My mistake, sorry Simon - and Luit. :)
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Hi, Lesley, are you feeling any better?
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Yes thank you Maggi, I am. I can't shake off a persistent cough so far but no doubt it will go soon. Helped yesterday by a trip to Hokonui Alpines near Gore (Fred will know it from the fish in the river there) and the purchase of a large order of plants. :)
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When we were decamping the bulb frame in Englad to move here, we sieved the soil and made a whole bag of unknown 'pips'. These were planted in a corner of the xeric garden 2 years ago. Most were Alliums, but Narcissus bulbocodium, Bellevalia romana and a few 'normal' Muscari have since flowered there. Today I found this Muscari. I had Muscari auchadra in the past, but it was assumed dead. I have also had M.pallens from several sources. Can anyone help with an id?
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Simon I cannot help but it is a very nice plant.
I now have another lot of muscari in flower,apart from two all sp. which saves a lot of typing.This group apart from the first two which are from Turkey are from seed collected in Greece
The first sp from Mt Falackro is minute the flower head is less than 1 inch.
Muscari caucasicum
Muscari aucheri
Muscari sp.
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Some from Turkey
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What a fascinating range of colours and growth forms, Tony. The literature used for identification really does not do justice to how variable Muscari species can be from location to location, and even within one location.
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Oron,
In Kansas temperatures frequently hit -5F with hot summers, 95-105F, even worse than eastern Tennessee. The past two winters the lowest temperature reached has been 7F with 12 days where it never made it above freezing. The summers get hot during the day (ca. 95F), but the diurnal range can be 30F. Morning temps can make it to around 55F, but are often ca. 65-70F. I was really surprised by this, but being situated between the Cumberland Mountains and the Appalachian's does make a difference. My soil is laterite red clay with a decent sandy humus layer.
Maggi,
Sorry I don't grow Alrawia. I wish I did. I am always searching out more and more Muscari and Bellevalia, let along so many other plants.
Tony,
Did you supply Arum seed to the AEG list? Some of the place names are similar. If so, thanks I have many from the seed a few years ago.
Aaron
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Aaron
yes I did send seed to the AEG list,I think it would be about four years ago. They do well with me and I get lots of spare tubers as well as seed. I also swapped a lot of spare arums with people who grow arisaema's which do not do very well with me.
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Today I found this Muscari. I had Muscari auchadra in the past, but it was assumed dead. I have also had M.pallens from several sources. Can anyone help with an id?
Simon,
It is very difficult to say which species it is but I would say an albino form of it. this white flower with green edges is almost always albino.
Does someone have information regarding M. auchadra, its origins habitat etc?
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Aaron, thanks for the information.
Tony... again, what a collection!! :o
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Oron there seems to be a photgraph of a white form of Muscari auchadra taken at Wisley on the web.
It origin is not visible on the label in the picture
Why not ask Paul at Wisley if he can tell you something about it.
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Tony,
Thanks, just seen the photo, infact it seems to be the same form that Simon has shown earlier.
I will try to contact Paul as you have suggested.
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Oron, I could not find out much information about M.auchadra online. One of the few pictures I could find was at http://home.tiscali.nl/hennessy/teeltweb/growing/picpage%20potgrowing.htm (http://home.tiscali.nl/hennessy/teeltweb/growing/picpage%20potgrowing.htm)
the flowers in the pic also have green edges. I agree with you about albino forms often having the green edging to the flowers. It could be misidentified here (the pic is from RHS Wisley) and my plant may have come from the same source. All that I do know is that the only albino form of Muscari I grew in England was M.argaei album (which I read is pure white).
I have grown other Muscari from seed here and it is possible these may have generated albinos, but the plant pictured was planted out before the voles worked through the bulb bed. So it cannot have been mixed up with any later acquisitions I have bought since moving to Bulgaria. I also know it cannot be from seed sown in England, as I did not have space to grow Muscari from seed in England.
It would be interesting to know if anyone is groing the real M.auchadra, and what the plant should look like.
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A selection of Muscari found on a walk yesterday in the Slivenska Mountains and the Blue Rocks area of Bulgaria.
Top- left to right
Muscari neglectum 'Lilac form'
Muscari neglectum album
Muscari neglectum 'normal form'
Bottom- left to right
Muscari neglectum 'lighter form'
Muscari vandasii (M.ramosum)
Muscari armenaicum
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Simon,
All nice! I love that lilac form of neglectum. Lovely delicate colour.
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Yes Paul, it was the only one we saw like that- we saw 5 albinos, which is the most we have seen in one population before. It is peak flowering time for Muscari here just now- we were trying to work out the likelihood of finding something different among groups of several 1000 individuals- we had good luck I think. :)
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Very, very cool. Congrats on finding so many.
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Some great findings Simon...you can start giving them cultivar names .. ;)
They bloom quite late in your area, in the E. Mediterranean they are way over now.
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Simon a lovely selection,it is great to find them in quantity.
Here I have a few more opening
a Bellevalia trifoliata,a better form than I showed before
Muscari sp from Niksar in Turkey
Muscari sp from Delphi. I have a lot of these from various places opening and I have forgotten the name.
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That's a much more photogenic B.trifoliata, Tony :). Is the Muscari from Delphi, M.comosum?
At several of the locations we visited on Friday more than one Muscari species was present. We found a few individuals which had mixed characteristics between these species- for example between Mm. neglectum and armenaicum. We could not work out if they were hybrids or just variation within one species. I have often thought that some of your Greek and Turkish Muscaris may be mixed in this way too. It would be interesting to here your thoughts.
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Simon yes it is comosum,thanks,a senior moment for me I think.
I have found several species of muscari growing together on a number of occasions in Greece. Last year on Mt Falackro in Greece there were three and I have attached pictures of two of them. They were within yards of each other and growing in similar conditions.
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Yes, the second one looks like forms we have seen, of M.neglectum, which are lighter coloured in all parts. This could be put down to variation, but when they are growing with M.vandasii, which is lighter in colour all over, it does make you wonder.
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Few nice Muscari from today's shots
Janis
Muscari armeniacum Wallis Pink
Muscari mcbethianum e Archibald seeds
Muscari verticillaris SLIZE-031 Iran
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Muscari mcbethianum is lovely. How long did it take from seed to flower.
I have a pot full of seedlings (also seed from Archibalds) and after seeing your photo I'm getting impatient :).
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Muscari mcbethianum is lovely. How long did it take from seed to flower.
I have a pot full of seedlings (also seed from Archibalds) and after seeing your photo I'm getting impatient :).
Not so fast as others, but first blooms are in 4th year, in masses - from 5th year.
Janis
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Janis,
I agree with Gunilla, M. mcbeathianum is a stunner,
thanks for showing it.
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Muscari pallens (?) flowering today in the top rock garden.
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Simon
You have it right, it is M. pallens.
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Thanks Oron- I think it may be the last Muscari of the year :(
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Muscari pallens is the last one here, too. With me it still didn't show even noses out of soil. In garden blooms pink selection from Muscari sp.n. as pallens maid by Lithuanian grower Augis Dambrauskas EARLY SUNRISE - one of best pinks, not so bright as armeniacum of Wakllis, but better outside here. It is seedling of White-rose Beauty.
In greenhouse in full bloom Valerie Finnis pot.
Janis
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Valerie Finnis is a really delicate blue, like the sky here today in the mountains, I love the close up you photographed, Janis, it's muscari perfection for me :)
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Love that mcbethianum and the Wallis Pink. Both strikingly different!! Wonderful shading on each. Thanks so much for the pics.
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Muscari armeniacum Wallis Pink
super Muscari, Janis, is Wallis Pink the same as "Gul"?
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Muscari armeniacum Wallis Pink
super Muscari, Janis, is Wallis Pink the same as "Gul"?
Yes, it is GUL (when I got it - it was not still named and on my fails still as Wallis Pink).
Janis
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I would like to share some of mine photos from this group. I am trying to identifie them by lokal records.
Can anybody confirm me If they are right!
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Quite rare in collections but very beautiful Muscari auchadra
Janis
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Ibrahim, they look all correct names to me, must say the second has particular leaves , very wide and grow in two parallel levels which isn't common with muscari...
Janis,
we were discusing this mysterious species earlier, do you have any information regarding its origins? and is it the album form of M. auchadra?
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Oron thank you very much for confirmation. For second one, they do not have all parallel leaves.
But they were have superb scent!
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Ibrahim, they look all correct names to me, must say the second has particular leaves , very wide and grow in two parallel levels which isn't common with muscari...
Janis,
we were discusing this mysterious species earlier, do you have any information regarding its origins? and is it the album form of M. auchadra?
No, I have no information. I baught it only last year and suppose it is coming from initially wild collected plants. Afraid that collector will keep locality in secret, but it is very nice. Nothing similar I have between others.
Janis
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It would be interesting to know who collected your M.auchadra, Janis, to try and work out more about the species.
Flowering today Muscari species nova 'Sky Blue'.
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Now entering greenhouse where Muscari blooms I feel as entering parfume shop. For few muscari...
Janis
Muscari macrocarpum Chris Brickell -05.
Muscari muscarimi HN-06 -01
Muscari muscarimi Society's Cream
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Those last two are super. Is the 'Chris Brickell' macrocarpum different from the "ordinary" one?
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Janis,
Love those last two. Beautiful. I have macrocarpum but have still never managed to flower it despite having it for a lot of years. ::)
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Those last two are super. Is the 'Chris Brickell' macrocarpum different from the "ordinary" one?
Darker yellow
Janis
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Janis,
Love those last two. Beautiful. I have macrocarpum but have still never managed to flower it despite having it for a lot of years. ::)
It never bloomed with me outside, need hot summer, don't like annual repotting as roots are perennial. Excellently blooms in greenhouse. Don't know about Dutch stocks, they mostly are virused, so flowers more poorly. I rebuild stock of macrocarpum from seeds. Seedlings were healthy.
Janis
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Janis,
Hot summer here is not a problem. I think I just need to put mine into bigger pots to give them more room. I have tried not to repot the last few years as I knew they resented disturbance. The next thing I try I think will be the more root space in a larger pot.
Thanks for your thoughts on them. If I can get them to flower I will try to collect seed and start some new ones fresh and see how they go.
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Paul, have you enough M.macrocarpum to try some outside? I am growing some from seed and my intention is to have them on the same sunny slope as I have M.muscarimi growing just now. The site is shaded by trees in summer and bone dry.
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Paul, my macrocarpum are from Marcus H and flowered outside in a pot the first year, and have done so the 2 years since.
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Lesley, if you have spares maybe you could try some outside too ;)
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I've never even thought of a Muscari as being anything but outside. Does that mean mine shouldn't have had the cold/heat outside up until now? :o
Lesley,
I think mine came from Marcus originally many years ago.... but we are talking many. Probably at least 10, if not 15 or more years ago. ::)
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Paul,
Mine from MH flower well outside and in the ground. You might try getting the form which Van Vogelvry offer - it seems both a little more free-flowering and to offset a little more easily.
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They are outside Simon, but in a pot outside. I have no undercover place for anything, except a tunnel with open weave covering and I just use that for newly potted seedlings/cuttings before they go into the nursery which is also all in the open.
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By 'outside' I did mean outside, as in out in the garden soil. Mine are.
In my experience of growing these bulbs, their thick fleshy roots are better accommodated in open ground- as for Juno Irises, than in pots. I know there are areas where this may not be possible, but I thought maybe it would be possible in New Zealand or Australia. Certainly if they aren't flowering well in a pot, it might be worth a go outside in the garden.
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Paul, larger pot and more feed!
Here Muscari armeniacum album - during several hours our team found 3 or 4 whites between large see of blues.
Janis
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It has a lovely form to it, Janis. :)
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Thanks Janis. I'll do that.
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Simply gorgeous group of muscari armeniacum album, Janis, and a wonderful photo :)
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You are right Simon, the macrocarpums would certainly be better in the open ground here but if you were to see my garden....... :'( :-\. I had a patch of M muscarimi at one stage and it became totally overgrown by long grass and blackberry. Still trying to retrive that piece of ground, though, incredibly, Colchicum agrippinum poked a flower through recently, after about 5 or 6 years in outer darkness and oblivion.
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Janis,
that is a lovely white muscari! I hope Marcus will consider importing it from you if he hasn't already :D
Paul,
I've grown M. macrocarpum in the Rock garden and it seems to be better there than in an ordinary garden bed - better drainage I suspect and drier in the summer.
cheers
fermi
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Lesley, we have an area here infested with wild raspberries- it would be greatif they bore fruit but never do so we struggle away with them. Having spent timein Australia clearing non-native weeds I know that plants seem to go crazy when moved to new countries and brambles are bad enough to begin with. Would be great if some of your native plants could do the same here ;)
Fermi- well done- yes drier in summer is the key, but with roots deeply into the soil and staying firm ;)
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Muscari latifolium...yes? Most seem to have a single broad leaf encircling the base of the stem (as per Rix and Phillips), but the odd one with the same flower appearance has 3 leaves???
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Nice latifolium Lori.
It looks as though it seeds around there, and obviously has no problems with your winter temperatures when protected by snow 8)
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Lori, mine have done that too in the past. :)
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Thanks for the ID confirmation! We don't actually have reliable snow cover normally (this winter was the first in 12 years where we saw almost constant snow cover due to much higher than usual snow falls) so they are just very tough!
Lori, mine have done that too in the past.
Simon, were you referring to developing more than 1 leaf on what seems to be the same plant?
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Sorry Lori- yes that's what i meant. The same patch has had plants with more than the usual 1 'wrap around' leaf, but they are usually smaller and thinner.
Flowering today a plant I bought from a garden centre as Muscari argaei album- it never flowered in the UK- so I was happy when it finally showed buds here. Now I know it can't be the name on the label. Any ideas?
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Thanks very much for the confirmation, Simon! It's hard to know if some statements referring to plant IDs (such as the one in Rix and Phillips about a single leaf) should be taken as an absolute truth, or just as a useful clue... it's evidently the latter in this case.
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Well that being said maybe we both have Muscari latifolium from the same source and it isn't true ;)
Actually I think most guidebooks do tend to develop flaws when you take them out into nature.
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Simon,
your mislabled plant resembles Muscari comosum.
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Thanks Armin.
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And very nice it is too. Others I've seen of comosum are looser and much less classy. Even the foliage is attractive and relatively restrained for a Muscari.
This morning my friend Susan phoned and we only talked for a minute or two, well, about an hour and 3/4 I think and during that time I learned that the Warehouse - our cheap and quite cheerful chain where you can buy heaps and heaps of rubbish but the occasional good thing as well, had, in their garden centre part, pots with no labels but the notice beside them just said "Assorted Muscari." Susan was sure they were M. macrocarpum and bought a pot with 4 or 5 bulb in flower. So I downed the vacuum cleaner, as you do, and took a trip to town and found about 50 such pots, all in full flower. I was very greedy and bought 3, with a total of 13 flower stems and some more to come. They had no scent in the store but the day is jolly cold. By the time I got them home, the car smelled like a funeral parlour or florist shop and for now, I've left them outside but will bring one in when the rain stops and I can tidy them a little. I suspect that they are imported and have had no chilling for a period, or other acclimatization or they wouldn't be in bloom in the southern hemisphere in early winter. We'll have to turn their seasons around when they die down. Susan and I understand this but I doubt if the majority of local shoppers will realize it or how to go about it. I'll take a picture when the rain stops. They were $7.99 for 5 bulbs, about 60p per bulb.
I also bought what the checkout thought was nothing but I had felt about and knew the plant was in there, of the hybrid between Rhodohypoxis and Hypoxis, called x Rhodoxis. Picture shows a white one, to go with my little plant of 'Hebron Pink.' It was $1.99 marked down from $4.99 because it had died down and many would assume there was nothing in the pot.
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Two great buys then Lesley, I hope you were smiling like a Cheshire Cat all day. Would that we could be so lucky buying things like that at our local version of the store!
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I brought mine inside and they scented the kitchen. In fact, this morning I went and bought another pot and the "Rhodoxis" which I purchased for $1.49!
Asked the guy who looks after the plant area and he said they were from a North Island supplier who forced them into flower for their winter market. Might pay to keep an eye out for more interesting things.
Have passed the word around a couple of other enthusiasts here, as it would be good to see them go to good homes.
Susan.
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I took a couple of pics tonight in the kitchen but the flash isn't working and they are almost black. I'll try outside tomorrow. The rain has stopped and there was a gleam of sunshine today. I've taken off 5 spent stems and there are still 21, including some barely started yet. Maybe there will be even more to come. Not bad, at least 26 stems on 12 bulbs. :)
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Lesley, as they were forced into flower I presume they came from Holland.
In that case it is probably Muscari Golden Fragrance. This is grown here in quite big quantities.
I showed a picture of it in the Keukenhof Thread where they were planted in long beds.
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I brought mine inside and they scented the kitchen. In fact, this morning I went and bought another pot and the "Rhodoxis" which I purchased for $1.49!
Asked the guy who looks after the plant area and he said they were from a North Island supplier who forced them into flower for their winter market. Might pay to keep an eye out for more interesting things.
Have passed the word around a couple of other enthusiasts here, as it would be good to see them go to good homes.
Susan.
===============================================================================
Checked the Warehouse down here --unfortunately only available in Timaru and Dunedin :'( :'( :'( and they ,(Dunedin),refuse to send any by courier " as they are just coming into flower and will be damaged in transit"--which is a load of rubbish as i've had many other plants sent over the years from even further afield with no problems.
As an interest Lesley how will you go about turning them around to acclimatize ?.
Ta .
Cheers Dave
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I took a couple of pics tonight in the kitchen but the flash isn't working and they are almost black. I'll try outside tomorrow. The rain has stopped and there was a gleam of sunshine today. I've taken off 5 spent stems and there are still 21, including some barely started yet. Maybe there will be even more to come. Not bad, at least 26 stems on 12 bulbs. :)
And is the foliage okay Lesley?
I bought M. macrocarpum 'Golden Fragrance' several times from different suppliers over the last few years but unfortunately each and every bulb was virus-infected >:( Eventually I resorted to seed but will have the wait a while for the wonderful flowers and scent :-\
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Dave, I am happy to purchase some for you. Will take a photo of mine so you can see what you will be getting first.
Have had a look at the ones I have and see no sign of virus.
Susan.
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The foliage seems OK, no streaking or splotches. A few leaves are a little browned at the tips but that looks more like the usual muscari tip that I see among most Muscari I grow. They are perhaps more lemony coloured than golden and the scent is HUGE. That usual cloying sweetness, with an undercurrent of the common grape hyacinth.
Dave, yould you like me to get some for you? They had a lot so should be available tomorrow when I go into town for a meeting.
As for acclimatizing, or retrieving from forcing, I'll probably just plant them out and let them do whatever they want. They may not be too good next year but should recover for the following spring.
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Sorry Susan, didn't notice your offer to Dave. I think I'll get a couple of pots of the white daffodil as well. About 3o cms high, multi flowers per stem, small, pure white and incredible perfume.
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OK a few pics. Still not too good because of the low angle of the sun at this time of year but enough for a good idea I guess. First, Muscari macrocarpum as bought from Marcus Harvey in Tasmania, for comparison.
[attachthumb=1]
Then the new ones, remembering that they have been growing under glass so are inevitably a bit drawn out. There are no purple buds at the top. Looks like they have dropped off.
[attachthumb=2]
[attachthumb=3]
[attachthumb=4]
Another look says not all top buds have dropped off and there is some purplish colour but again, less probably, because of having been under glass.
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Have had a look at the ones I have and see no sign of virus.
The foliage seems OK, no streaking or splotches.
What a great buy then 8)
Marcus's plant is a beauty too.
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I've sent a message to my sister, in case she hasn't seen this thread .....I hope she gets to Warehouse in time!!
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Maybe I should go myself :-\ ;D
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Sorry Susan, didn't notice your offer to Dave. I think I'll get a couple of pots of the white daffodil as well. About 3o cms high, multi flowers per stem, small, pure white and incredible perfume.
==========================================================================
Thanks girls :-* :-*.
I have emailed you Susan.
Cheers dave.
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Here is a Muscari from Uludağ. Tony also posted it before. I am not sure about the name but on the board of national park was written this name.
Muscari bourgaei
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Ibrahim,
It is M. bourgaei, easy recognised by the white strip in the middle of the leaf and by the very contracted mouth, [ similar to a human mouth giving a kiss...]
oron
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I wasn't sure which thread this would belong in- here or Scilla?
Flowering today a plant bought a long time ago as Hyacinthella tabrizianus
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Muscari bourgaei is a fabulous blue, Ibrahim, reminds me of lapis lazuli :)
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I wasn't sure which thread this would belong in- here or Scilla?
Flowering today a plant bought a long time ago as Hyacinthella tabrizianus
Simon,
This species is difficult to put in any thread: it is considered by some as Hyacinthus tabrizianus, by others Bellevalia tabrizianus and also Hyacinethella tabrizianus which seems to be less agreed on.
Any way its a beautifull species and what ever it is, it is tabrizianus originated in Tabriz, Iran. ;)
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Thanks Oron- like you say it is a lovely little flower wherever it belongs. It is a good divider and a useful late flowerer. It is hard to see how it can owe anything to Bellevalia, but maybe given its place of origin I guess it could represent some transition between Hyacinthus and Hyacinthella. I wonder if its genetics have been investigated at all.
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Flowering today a surprise Muscari left behind by the voles. I am not sure which one it is.
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Flowering today in the bulb bed- where just about everything else is now dormant- a Muscari ;)
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Flowering today a surprise Muscari left behind by the voles. I am not sure which one it is.
Simon,
I'm not sure either but I've an idea: Muscari dionysicum from North of Greece? ???
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Love the colour and the way it is flowering is fascinating :)
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Thanks, Armin ;)
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I got Bellevalila pycnantha from janis last year. A stunning flower.
Göte
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That's a beauty Göte.
According to the Kew Monocot Checklist (http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do) B. pycnantha is a synonym for B paradoxa.
Does anyone know whether there is any clear horticultural if not taxonomic distinction between the two?
Certainly immature plants I have look different but equally that might just reflect the populations from which the seed came.
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I certainly have no idea. There is a paper that can be found by google on muscari and allies i believe. It is available to those who are willing top pay a fee to the publishers :(
I am not. One day I will go to the university library where I can read it for free but lack of time is something that is plentiful with me. ;)
Göte
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A paper on the Bellevalia of Turkey explores their cytology. B.pycnantha is synonymized under paradoxa in this paper. They only mention that one is a tetraploid distributed in boggy meadows over a broad range and the other is diploid and found at higher elevations in alpine situations, generally pastures or rocky areas. Which is which is not really explained though. In cultivation both assume similar sizes, but differ slightly in flower color. Otherwise they are indistinguishable on a morphological basis according to the authors. Arch-7604 is diploid and Arch-6338 is tetraploid for those who might have these collections.
Aaron
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Thank you Aaron,
This is the paper i meant (I believe).
I no longer need to read it.
Göte
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Which is which is not really explained though.
Isn't that sort of sloppy writing enough to drive you insane ? :(
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AGREE :(
Göte
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Is anyone else growing this?
Belevalia tabriziana (was Hyacinthus tabrizianus)
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Not us, Diane. Love that pale blue.
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Is anyone else growing this?
Belevalia tabriziana (was Hyacinthus tabrizianus)
Yes Diane, but as Hyacinthella tabrizianus- one of its myriad of synonyms ;)
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Always the last one to flower here- as seen yesterday in the Stara Planina:
Muscari tenuiflorum
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Simon, Muscari tenuiflorum looks very intriguing and a lovely colour in the sunlight.....tall too?
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Yes, I agree. It really has a graceful form. We were happy to see them in full flower. On previous visits to this site we have either been too early, or too late. Some of them are maybe 60cm tall.
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Muscari parviflorum for the end of summer
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Yours were just a little earlier than the ones here Dominique! Flowering in the xeric garden today Muscari parviflorum. ;)
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That M. parviflorum is a real cutie - I'll keep an eye out for it on the seedlists as I'd like an autumn flowering muscari.
cheers
fermi
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It hasn't yet set seed with us, Fermi, but it des bulk up well from bulbils.
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I got this Muscari mcbeathianum from our "local" supplier of choice stuff, Marcus Harvey in Tasmania,
[attachthumb=1][attachthumb=2]
cheers
fermi
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looking good, Fermi- how tall is it with you?
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looking good, Fermi- how tall is it with you?
About 4"/10cm I think. I only got it this year and was surprised to see it have a second flower spike. I just hope I haven't jinxed it by posting a pic!
cheers
fermi
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Fermi,
'tis a beauty. Not one I got from Marcus this year, although I did get a few from him. My wife loves Muscari and I am developing feelings for them as well. I just don't like the weed one that spreads everywhere. ;D My wife on the other hand loves that one. My favourite at this stage is 'Vallerie Finnis'. I just love the colour. 8)
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Your newly acquired Muscari mcbeathianum looks a really choice plant, Fermi, grading of colour to white is lovely ;)
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Fermi,
'tis a beauty. Not one I got from Marcus this year, although I did get a few from him. My wife loves Muscari and I am developing feelings for them as well. I just don't like the weed one that spreads everywhere. ;D My wife on the other hand loves that one. My favourite at this stage is 'Vallerie Finnis'. I just love the colour. 8)
Paul
I thought everyone hated the 'weed' one.
Valerie Finnis has a good colour, but this does not make up for such miserable leaves.
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I shall have to kid to Marcus, come the summer time. :) I got several from him this last summer but I'd have to say that most look extremely like ye olde-fashioned grape hyacinth, of ill repute.
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Your newly acquired Muscari mcbeathianum looks a really choice plant, Fermi, grading of colour to white is lovely ;)
Yes it's a beauty Fermi. Presumably it will enjoy your conditions once you have enough to release into the garden.
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Muscaris are great except for that thug M. ?
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It might not be the best season to ask questions about spring flowering bulbs, at least not on the northern hemisphere but I am going through my pictures from last spring and was going to complete vith some facts about the plants. One of the bulbs has given me some problem. I bought it in 2007 from Paul Christian. It was named Bellevalia hackelii. In his catalogue it says the following: ”This has just 2-5 long but very narrow, recurved leaves below a 25-30 cm tall scape which holds a cylinder of up to 30 flowers of deep, dark blue, with the mouth of each picked out with a hairline of white contrasting perfectly with the violet anthers. The genus is not blowsy and this has a quiet charm. Sunny well drained spot or a pot/pan if you prefer. Portugal”
It has developed reasonably well in my bulb frame and it looks like the description in the catalogue. My problem is that in RHS Horticultural Database its name is B dubia ssp hackelii and when I seek out pictures of that I can not find any. The pictures I find of B hackelii is not very like my plant and not like the desription from Paul Christian.
My question is if there is someone here who can help me with this. What is the correct name of my bulb and can anyone provide me with any more data of it?
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Kenneth, your Bellevalia looks to be B.pycnantha.
Check the pictures at
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Bellevalia (http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Bellevalia)
I have B.hackelii from seeds from Monocot Nursery, so I am assuming it is the true species. I will hopefully be able to post pics of this next spring.
I did find this pic online if it is any help.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_4HVkhZ5oXsY/Sa0QDgTUvEI/AAAAAAAABso/qIXhU-11Rbw/1644.01+Bellevalia+hackelii+Freijn+-+Hyacinthaceae+-+P+Algarve-Paderne+-+1993.03.23.jpg (http://lh4.ggpht.com/_4HVkhZ5oXsY/Sa0QDgTUvEI/AAAAAAAABso/qIXhU-11Rbw/1644.01+Bellevalia+hackelii+Freijn+-+Hyacinthaceae+-+P+Algarve-Paderne+-+1993.03.23.jpg)
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I believe you're right. I have compared with the picture in Phillips & Rix Bulbs. I must have mixed up something, because I bought B pycnantha (by the incorrect name B paradoxa) at the same time. I ought to have thought of that possibility!
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Kenneth, I would not assume that the mistake was yours. If you are watching the Crocus pages, you will see that lots of bulbs are misnamed when they are sold.
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Bellevalia flexuosa germination. Thank at the kind friend who sent me them :)
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Dom,
is this the "normal" time of germination in your area?
Germination time starts here at the end of February.
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Muscari parviflorum at Perge ruins E of Antalya in S Turkey. Really this species don't belong to my favourites.
Janis
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Muscari parviflorum at Perge ruins E of Antalya in S Turkey. Really this species don't belong to my favourites.
Janis
But just having an autumn flowering muscari would be wonderful!
cheers
fermi
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But just having an autumn flowering muscari would be wonderful!
cheers
fermi
I agree, and just for this reason I'm growing it and will offer together with many new and unusual Muscari in my new catalogue.
Janis
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We saw a whole field of Muscari parviflorum in Goynuk on my recent trip.
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We saw a whole field of Muscari parviflorum in Goynuk on my recent trip.
I read this and wondered if you were exaggerating, Art........ I see you were not! 8)
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We saw a whole field of Muscari parviflorum in Goynuk on my recent trip.
Hi Arthur
I have recently aqquired this species from Buried Treasure who state on the list as difficult to flower, any clues here at all?. Pat
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We saw a whole field of Muscari parviflorum in Goynuk on my recent trip.
Hi Arthur
I have recently aqquired this species from Buried Treasure who state on the list as difficult to flower, any clues here at all?. Pat
Pat
I was also told that it was difficult to flower - it has taken more than 3 years to flower in my garden. On the other hand Dan Robbins has it flowering freely in his rock garden. I think it rather depends where you live and how much sun you get. Not one for the frozen north I suspect.
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The first time it flowered for me was here in Bulgaria. It is outside in a dry sunny spot, limey soil with Colchicum cupanii and Sternbergia lutea. The pics are back in this thread somewhere.
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Janis it may not be among your favourites but I think it is very pretty.
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It looks like a pretty nice species to me.
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It looks like a pretty nice species to me.
And it's on ICON! :D
Now we just need to find a source of seed! ;D
cheers
fe rmi
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It looks like a pretty nice species to me.
And it's on ICON! :D
Now we just need to find a source of seed! ;D
cheers
fe rmi
Fermi
It is grown here in NZ .I have seed ,(sown 09/09), awaiting germination--remind autumn next year and i'll see if i can source some as i owe you a favour or two.
Cheers Dave.
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We saw a whole field of Muscari parviflorum in Goynuk on my recent trip.
Hi Arthur
I have recently aqquired this species from Buried Treasure who state on the list as difficult to flower, any clues here at all?. Pat
It need hot summer. This autumn I had only very few flower spikes from 4 large pots, but in autumn 2007 after much warmer summer it flowered more abbundantly.
Janis
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Janis,
Which means it should do brilliantly in so many parts of Australia. ;D
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It looks like a pretty nice species to me.
And it's on ICON! :D
Now we just need to find a source of seed! ;D
cheers
fe rmi
Fermi
It is grown here in NZ .I have seed ,(sown 09/09), awaiting germination--remind autumn next year and i'll see if i can source some as i owe you a favour or two.
Cheers Dave.
Thanks, Dave - I'll try to remember to remind you ;D
cheers
fermi
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Janis,
Which means it should do brilliantly in so many parts of Australia. ;D
It makes bulbils here- so maybe they won't let you have it!
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Simon,
Don't they all? ;D Fermi mentioned it is on our ICON database, so it is approved to come in. 8)
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Simon,
Don't they all? ;D Fermi mentioned it is on our ICON database, so it is approved to come in. 8)
I believe there are some even more desirable ones, which sadly don't :(
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Actually Simon, you're right. Some don't seem to be quite so prolific. I find that sometimes it takes a few years before some of them start to produce lots of offsets.
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I suppose their reluctance to take over the garden is part of what makes some of them special ;)
I am sure people would complain if they had Muscari macbeathainum and M.auchadra growing up through their paths :o
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I wouldn't know, I don't grow either of them, although I have definitely enjoyed the pics of the macbeathainum that I have seen here. I only have a small collection of them, in the greater scheme of things, but I used to hate them all with a passion because of the weed one. My wife liked them so I put up with them, then started buying here a couple of different ones here and there, and now I "say" I buy them for her, even though I tend to more of less buy them for my own collection now! ;D But nobody needs to mention that to my wife, now do they? ;D ;) ;)
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True! I used to be wary of them, mainly because of things I had read in books. I can understand why one might not want to grow the more invasive ones anywhere in Australia where they might hop over the fence. However, having seen them turning fields and open woods here blue in spring, I now realise that even the weedy ones have their place. We have no native bluebells here, but the native Muscari more than make up for that. ;)
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I have made a new thread for this subject for 2010