Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => NARCISSUS => Topic started by: robsorchids on October 22, 2008, 07:19:46 PM
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today at one of the clients gardens that i work in i noticed a clump of daffs that were in full leaf, i think they are large trumpet hybrids.
i was very suprised to see daffodils up so early, my boss said that this clump that i pointed out does the same each season, allways comes up in october without fail.
oddly it flowers at the same time as the others in march! :o
explanation? not sure, but i do wonder if it could be a very unusual mutant, considering it does the same each season i dont think its just a seasonal one off.
its just the one clump that does this, completley seperate from the others in the bed, although the others are peeping through the soil too!
i have a few miniature species narcissus that are in leaf in the glasshouse, i wonder if they are connected at all? i.e are there any cultivars/hybrids known to come into leaf so early?
bye
rob
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Much earlier than last year is this Narcissus 'Camoro'. There are 12 buds on 15 bulbs
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Rob
'Camoro' is a hybrid between N. cantabricus monophyllus and N. romieuxii.
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Arthur, can I ask you to keep a note of what height the 'Camoros' reac when they are all in full flower? I suspect that with the different light levels with you they will keep much neater than they do up here, where, though very lovely, they do tend to get a bit too tall ???
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Maggi
The original bulbs were from Ian Christie. I will note their progress and report later :)
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Thanks, Arthur.
It's great to have these flowers so early, isn't it? And they last for AGES, too, which is even better!
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I don't have 'Comoro' but I do have some romieuxii which will open before the end of October. A first for me. The only difference is this pot was sun-baked in my classroom window and labelled serotinus 8) Goodness knows why! ::)
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Anthony,
N. bulbocodium serotinus has a last flower hanging on for me here (southern hemisphere of course). Usually the last hoop petticoat to open for me.
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Anthony do you bring your plants to skool for you or the children ;)
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My Romieuxii opened their first flowers yesterday, have not been in the greenhouse today to check on their progress because of the weather.
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My first flowers always come on the self-sown seedlings in the plunge because, I think, this gets watered when I resettle the pots in after repotting, whereas the pots don't get watered until September. The first was a romieuxii type, and yesterday this N. cantabricus foliosus type opened.
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I have a couple of pots of Narcissus romieuxii mesatlanticus in bud. If it wasn't pouring down here I might check if I had any opened.
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Here's my mislabelled plant.
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Here are a couple of pics of my Narcissus romiexii var. mesatlanticus. These were from Ian and Maggi in 2007 and flowering for me for the first time.
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Very interesting to see these early flowers. I have had them in flower in early November in the past but kept them dry much longer this year so they are a long way off flowering at present.
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The following pictures were taken on October 30th. The bulbs were grown from seed in the late 80's as Narcissus cantabricus hybrids. I originally had one cream and one pale yellow. The first pic is the original lemon clone and the second a seedling from the cream. The flowers open yellow and fade to cream. They are vigorous and early flowering but I have not returned seed to the seed exchange as I am not sure what to call it.
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First time to the greenhouse today after entertaining visitors for the past week to find the first flower on a pot of three Narcissus cantabricus ssp. cantabricus var. foliosus from Anne Wright.
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Well, Narcissus viridiflorus are just coming now !
Here is the first one :
(http://i74.servimg.com/u/f74/11/84/35/03/img_2711.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=334&u=11843503)
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Magnifique ! Bravo Fred
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I have a stem with a flower bud. Yippee! ;D
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I'll stick to the easy ones! This is a nice clean form of N. cantabricus given to me by a friend. It is quite vigorous too, this pot is flwering in its second year from twin-scaling.
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Please note - I posted some pics of autumn flowering daffs (including N. viridiflorus) in 'Narcissus miniatus and others'
Gerd
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You're right Anne ! A very good, almost perfect form of cantabricus !!!
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Anne,
What a glorious form of it. So perfect!! :o
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Here are a couple from the greenhouse today: Narcissus romieuxii Craigton Clanger, from Ian in 2007 and flowering for me for the first time; and, Narcissus x Nylon-I'm not sure I have written this properly and any advise would be welcome.
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Arthur, can I ask you to keep a note of what height the 'Camoros' reac when they are all in full flower? I suspect that with the different light levels with you they will keep much neater than they do up here, where, though very lovely, they do tend to get a bit too tall ???
Maggi
Most were 4.5 inches tall, with a couple, including the first one, reaching 5.25 inches :)
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David, how nice to see young 'Craigton Clanger' enjoying life with you! We think it a pretty thing.
Arthur.... this is much shorter than 'Camoro' makes with us..........either next door's holly tree has to go, or we really MUST clean the greenhouse glass properly :-[ :P ::)
Even with those (drastic) measures taken, I do think that the North East light quality, while fabulous for artists, painters and so on, is less than perfect for plant growth in the late/early seasons of the year. :(
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David, how nice to see young 'Craigton Clanger' enjoying life with you! We think it a pretty thing.
My N. "Craigton Clanger" if flowering as well - two bulbs from the same source ;D planted in Summer 2007 gave no flowers last winter but resulted in 5 bulbs when I repotted in July and 5 flowers right now !!! :D :D On an +- 8 cm stem, it's indeed a wee pretty thing !
I have a question though - what does "clanger" stand for ?? - the dictionary says something like "ugly"... surely that cannot be correct !!! ??? ???
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Ah, the joys of the english language..... yes, Luc, clanger can mean a mistake.... as in the phrase "Tim dropped a clanger" meaning that Tim made a faux pas...but clanger is also another term for a "clapper", the metal piece which moves to ring the note in a bell.... we thought the flowers were nicely bell-shaped with good stamens that made us think of this part of the bell, and clanger seemd nicer than clapper...... :P ::) ;D
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Re Narcissus 'Nylon,' I'm not too sure whether it should be 'Nylon' which is a cultivar name and implies a single clone, so every one identical, or x Nylon which is a grex (the seedlings from a specified cross) and so a batch very similar but not necessarily the same. One of the Narcissus experts should be able to tell us. But having said that, so many are around as Nylon, that I'd be inclined to go for the latter. I have a dozen almost the same plants only one of which I have as Nylon but the others which came from seed as foliosus and various other names are to all intents and purposes the same thing, in colour, form, height, and flowering time (autumn through winter), so what is Nylon? As well, I've sown batches of seed from all these so probably the name 'Nylon' is a no-brainer anyway.
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Ah, the joys of the english language..... yes, Luc, clanger can mean a mistake.... as in the phrase "Tim dropped a clanger" meaning that Tim made a faux pas...but clanger is also another term for a "clapper", the metal piece which moves to ring the note in a bell.... we thought the flowers were nicely bell-shaped with good stamens that made us think of this part of the bell, and clanger seemd nicer than clapper...... :P ::) ;D
Thanks Maggi !
Always glad to learn something - and I see the resemblence.. ;D
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Ah, the joys of the english language..... yes, Luc, clanger can mean a mistake.... as in the phrase "Tim dropped a clanger" meaning that Tim made a faux pas...but clanger is also another term for a "clapper", the metal piece which moves to ring the note in a bell.... we thought the flowers were nicely bell-shaped with good stamens that made us think of this part of the bell, and clanger seemd nicer than clapper...... :P ::) ;D
...and there was me thinking 'tiny' and 'clanger' meant something else? ;) Wouldn't the bell thingy be clangour?
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Re Narcissus 'Nylon,' I'm not too sure whether it should be 'Nylon' which is a cultivar name and implies a single clone, so every one identical, or x Nylon which is a grex (the seedlings from a specified cross) and so a batch very similar but not necessarily the same. One of the Narcissus experts should be able to tell us. But having said that, so many are around as Nylon, that I'd be inclined to go for the latter. I have a dozen almost the same plants only one of which I have as Nylon but the others which came from seed as foliosus and various other names are to all intents and purposes the same thing, in colour, form, height, and flowering time (autumn through winter), so what is Nylon? As well, I've sown batches of seed from all these so probably the name 'Nylon' is a no-brainer anyway.
Lesley - according to The Hillier Manual of Trees & Shrubs 'grex', when used in relation to rhododendrons which are the product of one cross, is synonymous with 'group'. So, by analogy, I suppose 'Nylon' might be referred to as the 'Nylon group'. John Blanchard simply refers to it as 'Nylon'.
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That sounds pretty reasonable Gerry and I'll go along with it rather than trying to identify many very similar plants, each as something different. So, Nylon Group it is - for me anyway.
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John Blanchard simply refers to it as 'Nylon'.
It was John Blanchard's father who raised 'Nylon' so presumably John has still got the original clone.
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Sure, but which of dozens around under that name is the "true" 'Nylon?'
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Both Daffseek and the Internationsl Daffodil register say they should be referred to as Nylon Group.
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John Blanchard simply refers to it as 'Nylon'.
It was John Blanchard's father who raised 'Nylon' so presumably John has still got the original clone.
It appears from John Blanchard's remarks in his book Narcissus: A Guide to Wild Daffodils (p138) that there is no original clone: "It is really a name which should never have been given because it was bestowed by Alec Gray on all the seedlings my father sent him.......Nylon is therefore not a clone".
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It appears from John Blanchard's remarks in his book Narcissus: A Guide to Wild Daffodils (p138) that there is no original clone: "It is really a name which should never have been given because it was bestowed by Alec Gray on all the seedlings my father sent him.......Nylon is therefore not a clone".
So what about the other fabric names Taffeta, etc (what are the others??) are they not clonal names either? I'd always assumed they were sister seedlings - presumable they are not either?
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It appears from John Blanchard's remarks in his book Narcissus: A Guide to Wild Daffodils (p138) that there is no original clone: "It is really a name which should never have been given because it was bestowed by Alec Gray on all the seedlings my father sent him.......Nylon is therefore not a clone".
So what about the other fabric names Taffeta, etc (what are the others??) are they not clonal names either? I'd always assumed they were sister seedlings - presumable they are not either?
Diane - John Blanchard's text in full is: "It is really a name which should never have been given because it was bestowed by Alec Gray on all the seedlings my father sent him from which 'Tarlatan' and the others ['Muslin', 'Taffeta' and 'Jessamy'] had been selected. Nylon is therefore not a clone". This seems to imply that the other named forms are genuine clones
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Diane - John Blanchard's text in full is: "It is really a name which should never have been given because it was bestowed by Alec Gray on all the seedlings my father sent him from which 'Tarlatan' and the others ['Muslin', 'Taffeta' and 'Jessamy'] had been selected. Nylon is therefore not a clone". This seems to imply that the other named forms are genuine clones
Thanks for that, Gerry, I'm being lazy as I have Blanchard's book at home but I'm at work now without access to it. So Nylon is the group, and Muslin, Taffeta etc are seedling clones from Nylon Group? I now remember the names, there's also Poplin.
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From where I stand, "Nylon" is just a rather unpleasant-to-wear fabric :-X :P
I have been a follower of the Group theory ( not to be confusedwith being a "groupie" which is quite other..... which brings me, in a somewhat convoluted fashion, to my next point.....
...and there was me thinking 'tiny' and 'clanger' meant something else? Wouldn't the bell thingy be clangour
No, Anthony: clangour, an alternative spelling for, and derived from the same Latin word, clangor means a constant clanging noise.... no reference to the metal clapper widgit which makes said noise. ::)
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Well there you go. ;D I've just been down to the staff room where the soup dragon plied us with various broths for a fiver, to raise money for 'Children in Need'. We managed £345.
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Thanks to everyone for clearing up the Nylon discusson. Simple really. It was in the UK that I first experienced nylon sheets on a bed, truly ghastly experience. Don't think they've ever been available in NZ. Thank heaven for small mercies.
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So, is the correct way to write it 'Narcissus x Nylon' ???
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Narcissus Nylon Group.
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Here are (sorry, very poor) photos of :
Narcissus Nylon Group
N. cantabricus foliosus (left) and N. 'Taffeta' (right)
N. 'Taffeta'
- or at least that's what I obtained them as.
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How beautiful they are, Anne. If my batch of Nylon Group seedlings coming along from last year's SRGC seedex turn out anything like yours I'll be delighted.
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Lovely display Anne.
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Nice potfulls Ann !!!
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Anne, very fine Narcissus! :D
Here there are just some Narcissus cantabricus leafs out till now - but first Narcissus papyraceus are in flower.
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Looking around my pots today I see the first of N. 'Craigton Clumper' is open
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Beautiful Narcissus Hans - and more to come :)
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Could someone help with the identity of this narcissus blooming currently
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Now that is very elegant. :)
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Art - after looking through John Blanchard's book I would hazard a guess at N. cantabricus. Or possibly a hybrid. I have the impression that the hoop-petticoats are as bad as Sternbergias when it comes to identification (maybe worse). Whatever it is, it's very attractive.
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I have the impression that the hoop-petticoats are as bad as Sternbergias when it comes to identification (maybe worse). Whatever it is, it's very attractive.
Gerry, thank you - your contribution saves me to express even the same!
Gerd
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I'm just home from a lecture by John Blanchard. Totally amazing so if he is ever in your area you must go. My list of species I want is huge.
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Arthur, what a pretty flower..... it is a N. cantabricus but has extra "bits"...... the tube of the flower looks perfect so I don't think this is a simple case of two flowers fusing into one: there are extra petals and extra stamens so there is some sort of mutation going on..... if this is stable and it produces this effect in future
( ir has in past ?) years, then it is rather interesting. The front view with the scalloping is lovely.
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What a beautiful flower, like a white 'Joy Bishop'.
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Arthur, what a pretty flower..... it is a N. cantabricus but has extra "bits"...... the tube of the flower looks perfect so I don't think this is a simple case of two flowers fusing into one: there are extra petals and extra stamens so there is some sort of mutation going on.....
Maggi - I'm obviously past it. I didn't even notice the extra "bits"!
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Narcissus romieuxii -
The cultivar 'Treble Chance' is described as a selection from JCA805 & 'Atlas Gold" as a selection from JCA805Y. In his seed list Jim Archibald only mentions JCA805. Does anyone know what, if any, is the difference between 805 & 805Y?
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Here's two from me :
Already shown here - but nonetheless : Narcissus romieuxii 'Craigton Clanger' + close up
Narcissus zaianicus lutescens x cantabricus
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Two beauties there Luc. Craigton Clanger is superb isn't it.
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Super photos, Luc.
I do love 'Craigton Clanger'.... but as a parent, you would expect me to say that, I think!
[attach=1]
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Luc - I think the N. zaianicus lutescens hybrid is very elegant.
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Here's two from me :
Already shown here - but nonetheless : Narcissus romieuxii 'Craigton Clanger' + close up
Narcissus zaianicus lutescens x cantabricus
A nice potfull Luc!
You have a camera too? ;D ;)
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My first 'Cedric Morris' has been eaten during the frost when it was lying down
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Bad news Marc - and probably the vilain has escaped too.. >:(
Thanks for the comments on the Narcissus everyone ;) and obviously a special thanks to the "mum" ;D
Actually, Craigton clanger is excellent stock... these were only 2 bulbs in 2007 :D
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A nice potfull Luc!
You have a camera too? ;D ;)
;D
Yes Luit, and when I have something worth photographing I even use it
;D ;)
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My first 'Cedric Morris' has been eaten during the frost when it was lying down
Mark,
Look at the bright side of things...now it seems like the first yellow Galanthus ;)
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Oh Oron, that is harsh. :o Kicking a man when he is down, and all that. ;D ;)
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Gerry, my father obtained bulbs of Narcissus romieuxii JCA805 off Jim Archibald in 1971 and selected out several different distinct bulbs, labelling one XXX. Some 20 years later when the stock had increased sufficiently to offer for sale XXX he named it 'Treble Chance'. He also had a selection labelled JCA 805Y (i don't know wether he originally attached the Y to 805 or not) but i'd always assumed that it was an early recognition that these bulbs were Yellow Form of JCA805, ie Y = Yellow. I'm rather vague about this bit but i think the name 'Atlas Gold' possibly came from Fred Hunt ??
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Very nice pics. Thanks Luc and thanks at the Mum
Dom
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Gerry, my father obtained bulbs of Narcissus romieuxii JCA805 off Jim Archibald in 1971 and selected out several different distinct bulbs, labelling one XXX. Some 20 years later when the stock had increased sufficiently to offer for sale XXX he named it 'Treble Chance'. He also had a selection labelled JCA 805Y (i don't know wether he originally attached the Y to 805 or not) but i'd always assumed that it was an early recognition that these bulbs were Yellow Form of JCA805, ie Y = Yellow. I'm rather vague about this bit but i think the name 'Atlas Gold' possibly came from Fred Hunt ??
The RHS Daffodil Register shows that it was Potterton and Martin who registestered the name Atlas Gold in 1993 :
http://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/registerpages/daffdetails.asp?ID=224106
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A nice potfull Luc!
You have a camera too? ;D ;)
;D
Yes Luit, and when I have something worth photographing I even use it
;D ;)
Just wondering Luc :-\ ;D ;D
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Gerry, my father obtained bulbs of Narcissus romieuxii JCA805 off Jim Archibald in 1971 and selected out several different distinct bulbs, labelling one XXX. Some 20 years later when the stock had increased sufficiently to offer for sale XXX he named it 'Treble Chance'. He also had a selection labelled JCA 805Y (i don't know wether he originally attached the Y to 805 or not) but i'd always assumed that it was an early recognition that these bulbs were Yellow Form of JCA805, ie Y = Yellow. I'm rather vague about this bit but i think the name 'Atlas Gold' possibly came from Fred Hunt ??
Rob - Thanks for the info. I guessed that Y might mean yellow. Your plants of 'Atlas Gold' are in bud & I look forward to seeing the flowers. Unfortunately the buds on 'Treble Chance' were eaten by a b----y slug.
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Gerry, my father obtained bulbs of Narcissus romieuxii JCA805 off Jim Archibald in 1971 and selected out several different distinct bulbs, labelling one XXX. Some 20 years later when the stock had increased sufficiently to offer for sale XXX he named it 'Treble Chance'. He also had a selection labelled JCA 805Y (i don't know wether he originally attached the Y to 805 or not) but i'd always assumed that it was an early recognition that these bulbs were Yellow Form of JCA805, ie Y = Yellow. I'm rather vague about this bit but i think the name 'Atlas Gold' possibly came from Fred Hunt ??
The RHS Daffodil Register shows that it was Potterton and Martin who registestered the name Atlas Gold in 1993 :
http://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/registerpages/daffdetails.asp?ID=224106
I have spent a frustrating time trying to track down details of the PC awarded to N. 'Atlas Gold'.......Oddly enough it does not seem to mentioned either in the SRGC journals nor in the ASGS bulletins, where Robert Rolfe carefully records the awards made at the Joint Rock Garden Plant Committee.... so, a mystery indeed. I'll see if I can get Fred Hunt's recollections on the matter!
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It's certainly odd that there seems to be no trace of the PC awarded to 'Atlas Gold' in 2001. I looked through the AGS Bulletins around this date with similarly negative results. However, I did discover an interesting article on Hoop-Petticoats by Ron Beeston (vol 68, June 2000) with some nice photos. I do wonder, though, how many of the numerous names he cites would survive closer scrutiny.
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My 'Treble Chance' and 'Atlas Gold' and 'Joy Bishop' all came from Potterton and Martin with those names, in June, 1993.
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Narcissus romieuxii
From the well-known collection by Jim Archibald (JCA805); Morocco, Middle Atlas abv. Ifrane (1962).
A common form but a pretty one. (My camera on auto doesn't handle these yellows too well).
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Looks good to me, Gerry.
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Very pretty indeed Gerry.
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Anne & David - Thanks for your kind response. I've only been growing these little hoop-petticoats for 3 years or so but I find them very seductive. They may well lure me away from crocus, my first love. As for the image, I'm still a new boy with a digital camera & my photos are still hit & miss.
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Lovely group. 8) Much more better than anything I have out at the moment. :)
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I'm still a new boy with a digital camera & my photos are still hit & miss.
Point and shoot, hit and miss. It's what we all do Gerry. Well no, I'll accept we have some very fine photographers on the Forum, but many of us are in the definitely amateur class.
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Very goodlooking potful Gerry !!!
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A couple of pictures here of a pot of Narcissus bulbocodium paucinervis praecox (that takes some typing!) which I got from Ian and Maggi in 2007. Leaves but no flowers last year but a flower this time but can't see any other buds yet. My question is though, is it what it says on the tin? Sorry about the somewhat fuzzy close up.
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A couple of pictures here of a pot of Narcissus bulbocodium paucinervis praecox (that takes some typing!) which I got from Ian and Maggi in 2007. Leaves but no flowers last year but a flower this time but can't see any other buds yet. My question is though, is it what it says on the tin? Sorry about the somewhat fuzzy close up.
David - I've just looked it up in Blanchard's book. The correct name appears to be N bulbocodium subsp. praecox var. paucinervis (get that on a label!).
On the basis of Blanchard's description it's not easy to determine whether your plant is correctly identified. He describes it as robust, with stems of 15-26cm at flowering time & flowers "quite large" - coronas 24-37mm in diameter. Your plant looks fairly small but of course this could be a matter of cultivation. So who knows?
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Thanks for the correction Gerry I've just amended my file titles and feel quite worn out now ;D I think I read somewhere that in N b ssp. p p (I'm not typing all that lot again) the stamen is NOT exserted (which I take to mean 'sticking out of the flower?) whilst it is exserted on my flower. Does John Blanchard mention this at all please?
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Very interesting. Looks very similar to a hybrid I received as hedraeanthus from CGF, but flowering two months earlier.
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I think Ian described this (veritable mouthful of a name) on our list as being "how we received it"..... that is, we had it originally with this name from a very reputable source....when queried, the answer came that yes, it was "right"......... ::)
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Thanks for the correction Gerry I've just amended my file titles and feel quite worn out now ;D I think I read somewhere that in N b ssp. p p (I'm not typing all that lot again) the stamen is NOT exserted (which I take to mean 'sticking out of the flower?) whilst it is exserted on my flower. Does John Blanchard mention this at all please?
David - I noticed the exserted anthers on your plant & initially thought I should refer to this, but - according to Blanchard's description of the form he grows - "The anthers are included in young flowers, but grow as the flowers age and sometimes become just exserted." Only you know how old your flowers are.
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Thanks Maggi, but it's very pretty in any case. Do you still grow it, it will be interesting to compare when yours flowers?
Gerry thanks again. The flower opened in the last couple of days.
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Yes, David, though it'll be a while before it's out .
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The exserted anthers and a stem held of an angle of 45 degrees to the ground are typical N. hedraeanthus - fashion.
The flowering time is different! Maybe an early hedraeanthus or a hybrid with that species.
Gerd
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Mmmm. thanks Gerd.
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Gerd I've done a little research and it seems that one of the characteristics of Narcissus hedraeanthus is that the leaves are narrow and twisting and almost prostrate-I have a pot of haedraeanthus with leaves showing and they check out in those respects. The leaves on my plant are much narrower and upright.
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Re Narcissus 'Nylon,' I'm not too sure whether it should be 'Nylon' which is a cultivar name and implies a single clone, so every one identical,
I don't think cultivar names really imply clones: think of all the vegetable cultivars grown from seed as annuals.
Also, the components of a clone are not necessarily identical, certainly not for horticultural purposes.
See reply 50 here: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2644.45
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Re Narcissus 'Nylon,' I'm not too sure whether it should be 'Nylon' which is a cultivar name and implies a single clone, so every one identical,
I don't think cultivar names really imply clones: think of all the vegetable cultivars grown from seed as annuals.
Jim - I agree with this. I think a cultivar raised from seed would strictly be described as a strain
Also, the components of a clone are not necessarily identical, certainly not for horticultural purposes.
See reply 50 here: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2644.45
I'm not sure I agree with this. A clone (in the plant world) is conventionally regarded as a group of individuals derived from a single individual by vegetative propagation. Consequently, and barring somatic mutation, all these individuals are alike and will be identical with the original, given the same conditions of cultivation. I think 'identical' here is used in the everyday sense that we speak of two things as being identical & not in some esoteric sense.
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David to clear up or perhaps add to the confusion over the wee plant with the long name
N bulbocodium subsp. praecox var. paucinervis
.
When I got it many years ago from a very well known grower I queried the name but was told that it was correct.
I do not believe it - I think it is a form or hybrid of N. romieuxii and suspect that a seedling has got into the original growers stock which has died out being replaced with this very pretty wee Narcissus. I have shown how easily this can and does happen often in the Bulb Log.
Jim and Gerry, under the rules a clone has to be identical or within 10% (however you work that out) of the originally named plant so should only really be applied to vegetable cultivars.
However I do know that often a group of seedlings are so similar that they have been give a cultivar name and I seem to remember reading that the name Narcisss 'Nylon' was given to a pot of seedlings that were distributed so there will be some variation.
We are not allowed to use the term 'strain' any more, crazy as that is the term we have all used, I believe we are supposed to call it a 'line' now. I must admit that I still prefer strain.
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Gerd I've done a little research and it seems that one of the characteristics of Narcissus hedraeanthus is that the leaves are narrow and twisting and almost prostrate-I have a pot of haedraeanthus with leaves showing and they check out in those respects. The leaves on my plant are much narrower and upright.
David,
I must confess I forgot what kind of leaves this species has. So I went outside (soo cold and rainy) and made some pics. I noticed that my N. hedraeanthus from different locations have erect leaves. Please have a look at the following pics.
It seems there is some variation concerning the habit of the leaves with this species. Also there is N. hedraeanthus ssp. luteolentus which has a more erect stem and larger flowers than the 'typical' form found in the Sierra de Cazorla for instance.
Nevertheless your plant might be of hybrid origin, but according the orientation of the flower stalk with hedraeanthus background.
On this occasion I add pics of two other daffodils.
1. Narcissus hedraeanthus/Cazorla - today
2. Narcissus hedraeanthus/white selection - today
3. Narcissus hedraeanthus ssp. luteolentus from January 2008
4.+5. Narcissus cantabricus - petunioid form from Jebel Tazzeka, Morocco -today
6.+7. Narcissus romieuxii from Morocco - this time with very small flowers
and with a snail - and grey mould at the stamina
- which I never had seen without making pics here ! - today
Gerd
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Jim and Gerry, under the rules a clone has to be identical or within 10% (however you work that out) of the originally named plant so should only really be applied to vegetable cultivars.
However I do know that often a group of seedlings are so similar that they have been give a cultivar name and I seem to remember reading that the name Narcisss 'Nylon' was given to a pot of seedlings that were distributed so there will be some variation.
We are not allowed to use the term 'strain' any more, crazy as that is the term we have all used, I believe we are supposed to call it a 'line' now. I must admit that I still prefer strain.
Ian - Thanks for the comments.
The term ‘strain’ used to be applied to the set of descendants produced (by whatever means) from a common ancestor that shared a uniform morphological or physiological character. I was unaware that it is not a formally recognised term.
I’m puzzled by your reference to ‘vegetables’. Was this a typo? And I can't make much sense of '10%'.
With regard to the plants which are the subject of this thread. ‘Nylon’ has been discussed in earlier posts. It is not the name of a clone but of a Group. As such, if I understand the code correctly, it can also be a cultivar name.
‘Julia Jane’ merits some discussion. The name was bestowed by Jim Archibald on a very distinct selection from his collection JCA805. Hence, the name (as a clonal name) can only be correctly applied to plants which have been vegetatively derived from the original selection. Currently, plants under the name ‘Julia Jane’ are widely available in the trade & they seem to vary considerably. I suspect most of them are seed raised & consequently are not entitled to the name. I suppose they could be referred to as ‘The Julia Jane strain (or line)’, though I don’t know whether there are any rules about this. In any case I think it would be misleading.
I have the impression that the situation with regard to ‘Joy Bishop’ is similar.
As regards ‘Atlas Gold’ & ‘Treble Chance’, I believe these cultivar names are the names of clones & at least the plants distributed by the originating nursery, Pottertons, seem to be the real thing.
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Vegetable cultivars is just that.... cultivar names of turnips, potatoes, courgettes, etc.
10% refers to the requirement that all details e.g. colour, measurements of stamen length etc, be "identical" or within a 10% range of the measurements of the original..... does that help? Not sure if it is defined as to whetherit is 10% plus or minus or 5% either way.... making a 10% toal.... frankly, I doubt whether the ones who made these rules were clear in themselves as to those details! :-\ :-X
The problem with "group" names is that, for whatever reason be it ease of use or laziness, the full appellation "Nylon Group" is seldom used, leading to continued confusion
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Vegetable cultivars is just that.... cultivar names of turnips, potatoes, courgettes, etc.
Now I'm totally confused. Does this mean that only vegetables can be clonal.
Incidentally, the Botanical Code is freely available online but one has to buy the Code for Cultivated Plants. There's some sort of lesson there.
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Gerd, thanks for those pictures, very informative and does illustrate something we have said many times on the Forum ' it just goes to show that whatever the books say the plants just don't read them' ;D
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Vegetable cultivars is just that.... cultivar names of turnips, potatoes, courgettes, etc.
Now I'm totally confused. Does this mean that only vegetables can be clonal.
What makes you think the rest of us are NOT confused, Gerry......... these are botanists and taxonomists who make these regulations..... need I say more ? ::) :-X
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Well, some of my best friends are botanists...... :-[
With regard to the plants which are the subject of this thread. ‘Nylon’ has been discussed in earlier posts. It is not the name of a clone but of a Group. As such, if I understand the code correctly, it can also be a cultivar name.
After a bit of research, I can elaborate on this (no yawning at the back please).There seem to be two distinct cultivars - 'Nylon' & 'Nylon Yellow'. If I understand the rules regarding Groups, the currently correct form of the names would appear to be Narcissus (Nylon Group) 'Nylon' & Narcissus (Nylon Group) 'Nylon Yellow'.
If you are so inclined, you can check the basis for these names on the RHS website in the Plantfinder Glossary under 'Group'. I imagine most people will be content with the cultivar names.
(We retired people have to occupy ourselves with trivia like this to ward off Alzheimers & to keep us from rioting in the streets).
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Had to read your last line twice Gerry, the first time I thought your last line said 'rotting in the streets'! ;D
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We retired people have to occupy ourselves with trivia like this to ward off Alzheimers & to keep us from rioting in the streets).
;D ;D ;D
But presumably seedlings would be just Narcissus Nylon Group?
Many thanks Gerry, and relieved to hear that you're neither rioting nor rotting 8)
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But presumably seedlings would be just Narcissus Nylon Group?
Many thanks Gerry, and relieved to hear that you're neither rioting nor rotting 8)
I'm no authority but I guess so Ashley, unless I selected & named one, say, Narcissus (Nylon Group)'White Dwarf'.
Rioting will start in the New Year if my gas bills do not come down.
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NOOOOOO!! Not the Julia Jane and Joy Bishop epic again! See http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=245.0 and http://www.srgc.org.uk/discus/messages/321/23059.html. Just when I thought I had it sorted. ::)
Technically members of a clone have to be identical genetically, so only vegetative propagation can be used to produce them. Some variation can occur in clones if there are mutations or sporting, which I assume is what happens when vegetatively propagated snowdrops do not come true.
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Re Narcissus 'Nylon,' I'm not too sure whether it should be 'Nylon' which is a cultivar name and implies a single clone, so every one identical,
I don't think cultivar names really imply clones: think of all the vegetable cultivars grown from seed as annuals.
Jim - I agree with this. I think a cultivar raised from seed would strictly be described as a strain
Also, the components of a clone are not necessarily identical, certainly not for horticultural purposes.
See reply 50 here: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2644.45
I'm not sure I agree with this. A clone (in the plant world) is conventionally regarded as a group of individuals derived from a single individual by vegetative propagation. Consequently, and barring somatic mutation, all these individuals are alike and will be identical with the original, given the same conditions of cultivation. I think 'identical' here is used in the everyday sense that we speak of two things as being identical & not in some esoteric sense.
Gerry, I meant clone in Webber's original sense: the group of plants which results from the vegetative propagation of one original seedling.
Webber in his definition said nothing about the elements which make up a clone being identical.
This business about the elements which make up a clone being identical is a later accretion.
Perhaps we need to retrofit the word clone, and I should start to use the phrase "Webber clone" to indicate the original meaning of the word.
Ian, I had never heard about this 10% rule, perhaps because I'm not about to dip into my pockets for the privilege of reading rules on which I was not consulted. ::) It must be an American thing - you know, representative government, the consent of the governed and all that. :o ;)
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NOOOOOO!! Not the Julia Jane and Joy Bishop epic again! See http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=245.0 and http://www.srgc.org.uk/discus/messages/321/23059.html.
Sorry Anne, I only remembered the previous threads after posting. I guess it bears repeating since false 'Julia Jane' is still in circulation.
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NOOOOOO!! Not the Julia Jane and Joy Bishop epic again! See http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=245.0 and http://www.srgc.org.uk/discus/messages/321/23059.html. Just when I thought I had it sorted. ::)
Technically members of a clone have to be identical genetically, so only vegetative propagation can be used to produce them. Some variation can occur in clones if there are mutations or sporting, which I assume is what happens when vegetatively propagated snowdrops do not come true.
Can someone please point me to a thread in which 'Joy Bishop' is discussed and, I hope, illustrated.
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Try a search of the Bulb Log for N. 'Joy Bishop', Jim... there may be items in Old and New Forumm posts, also.
representative government, the consent of the governed and all that. :o ;)
Really? I thought that idea had hit the ground, out cold, in both our countries, lately :P
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Hope blooms eternal, Maggi. And when all else fails, we always have our gardens ( or at least I hope we will).
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Jim, see the links on my posting above re Joy Bishop, including input from the lady herself.
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Folks, the RHS accepted terminology for "clone" etc has been set out here, well enough for most of us gardeners to follow..... let's not go down the road of further discussion on the usage of the words.... this is a plant thread 8)
Here are a couple of 'Joy Bishop' photos.... the bulb, not the lady herself, though the lady has confirmed these!
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
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Jim McK,
Do you set out to confuse people? Getting into semantics on a point like the definition of a clone is as far as I can see only designed to do that, unless you're talking to serious botanists. It's why I have never opened the topic on latin pronunciation, because I imagine it will just become a point-scoring effort (or at least that is what I have seen in other discussions on other lists elsewhere). A lot of us here are just gardeners, not serious botanists. Does telling people that a clone is "technically" in some obscure way not that really help? ??? It's another word I guess I have to stop using now because it is no longer clear, or else every time I use the word I now need to put a sentence to clarify what I mean (which sort of defeats the purpose). ::) A shame really, as it used to be useful for indication something of identical genetic material that has been propagated by division/cuttings etc. Now you tell us it is not in certain senses. I give up! :'(
Maggi, I just read your most recent post on this thread. Am I permitted a response to Paul's post? If so:
Paul, I understand your frustration. But why give up? In my view a life without new insights is hardly worth living.
For my own part, when things don't add up I'm likely to squawk.
But please keep in mind that I did not cause the ambiguity which exists. I'm simply the messenger.
I'm not trying to confuse anyone; just the opposite, I'm trying to call attention to the pot holes in the road. People use the word clone assuming that others understand it the same way they do; yet as I've pointed out, there are two mutually contradictory concepts involved. It seems to me that you should be thanking me, not castigating me.
And I won't for a moment deny that I enjoy doing this.
I thought it was appropriate to introduce that into that thread because one of the sub-threads there, if you will, centered on the original definition of another word. My intention was not to confuse people but rather to alert them to the potential confusion. I used the history of the word clone to illustrate a similar wandering away from an original meaning.
With respect to your comments on point scoring and the pronunciation of Latin, all I can say is that you don't know what you're missing. It's a great game for anyone with a love of words and language. It's a great way to build your vocabulary and hone your semantic skills. Are those things to resent? We all bring differing skills to this or any game, just as we bring different skills to cricket or football/soccer. I don't feel the least bit diminished when I watch a star athlete perform. Oddly, their excellence does not remind me of my own ineptitude; to me it's just another exhilarating celebration of the diversity of human accomplishment.
Let's hear it for the diversity of human accomplishment!
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I repeat my earlier 'operational' definition of a clone which I would put money on. "A clone (in the plant world) is conventionally regarded as a group of individuals derived from a single individual by vegetative propagation". Given that propagation is vegetative, it is assumed that, for the most part, these individuals will be genetically identical. While this assumption is reasonable, in practical terms genetic identity is not part of the concept. Can anyone cite an example of a putative clone being confirmed as such by genetic analysis? A further ground for assuming genetic identity is that, given the same conditions of cultivation, all these individuals tend to look alike and to be like the original individual. In cases where this is not the case, it is assumed that there has been somatic mutation.
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Jim, see the links on my posting above re Joy Bishop, including input from the lady herself.
Thanks, Anne.
Ah, now I realize what happened. I clicked on the first link, read all the posts there, and saw nothing helpful about 'Joy Bishop'. But did not see the second link.
Too occupied with something else; what might that be....
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Jim, see the links on my posting above re Joy Bishop, including input from the lady herself.
Thanks, Anne.
Ah, now I realize what happened. I clicked on the first link, read all the posts there, and saw nothing helpful about 'Joy Bishop'. But did not see the second link.
Too occupied with something else; what might that be....
Icing your Christmas cake? ::)
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I wrote this before, I will write it again:
Folks, the RHS accepted terminology for "clone" etc has been set out here, well enough for most of us gardeners to follow..... let's not go down the road of further discussion on the usage of the words.... this is a plant thread.
Anyone wishing to contribute their thoughts to a specific thread about the implications of our use of words such as clone/cultivar etc, may open such a thread for that purpose.
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I agree 100% Maggi.