Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => NARCISSUS => Topic started by: Hans J on September 27, 2008, 02:21:33 PM
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Hi all ,
here a pic of my
Narcissus miniatus
there is some confusion with N. serotinus ....but a friend ( a nice forumnist ) has confirmed me that this is the rigth N.miniatus ....
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Beautiful Hans - just beautiful !! How high are they ??
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Luc :
they are 20 cm high
for Paul Tyerman :
Paul thats the motherplants from which I have sent you before some years seeds ....in this time I have believed it is N.seotinus ....please excuse !!!
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Really a wee beauties, Hans :o 8)
Where is the natural distribution of this species?
Is it winter hardy?
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Armin ,
sorry but I dont know exactly which distribution this species has ....maybe a other forumist know more ::)
I have this pot since many years in my bulb frame ( without any heating ) ....from April - September dry ...and watering in wintermonth ...
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Really a wee beauties, Hans :o 8)
Where is the natural distribution of this species?
Is it winter hardy?
Armin,
Narcissus miniatus - segregated from serotinus recently comes from Southern Spain, the Balearic Islands and Crete. Because of its southern distribution (and always at lower elevations there) it isn't hardy in the north.
Gerd
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Is this the same N. "serotinus" I saw many years ago on Cyprus en masse at Akamas?
I thought it was N. serotinus but never flowered with me. It grows in habitat about 15 cm in flower.
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Is this the same N. "serotinus" I saw many years ago on Cyprus en masse at Akamas?
I thought it was N. serotinus but never flowered with me. It grows in habitat about 15 cm in flower.
Luit,
I am not sure if there was serotinus or miniatus - hopefully some plants resulted from seeds collected on Cyprus will flower here soon. I'll send some pics then.
Gerd
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Thanks Gerd and Hans.
Now picture is a bit clearer for me.
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Hans,
Thanks for he PM re this. Great to have the correct name, although seeing your pic just makes me even more impatient in the waiting for it to flower (which I realise will take a few years! ::)). Seedlings are doing well here so far, so fingers crossed.
Thanks again.
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Paul ,
Yes -I know that it is interesting for you ;)
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What a beatiful plant. :o
Congratulations for growing it.
How much time it took to bloom ?
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Where is the natural distribution of this species?
Is it winter hardy?
Gerd,
Both N. serotinus and N. miniatus will grow in unheated greenhouse in N. Ireland but both are very difficult to flower. 'miniatus' means orange and the picture shown clearly displays this characteristic, also the multi-florets per stem. The true N. serotinus can be found in thousands on a mound in the village of Castro Marim almost on the southern border between Spain and Portugal. It is shorter, smaller, mostly single flowered, the minute cup is yellowish and the flower in this population is a 'star gazer'. N. miniatus can be found on many roadsides around and South of Seville - indeed I have seen roadside verges with seemingly thousands of plants sprayed out with paraquat.
Sorry my pictures of this sad sight and the two species are on slides and I cannot add to this posting.
Brian
Armin,
Narcissus miniatus - segregated from serotinus recently comes from Southern Spain, the Balearic Islands and Crete. Because of its southern distribution (and always at lower elevations there) it isn't hardy in the north.
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Hans that is lovely. It is a species I have only recently heard of and one I will be looking for.
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Brian,
Your observations concerning the distribution and threat of Nn. miniatus/serotinus are in accord with mines. ' Serotinus ' is found in the more western parts of Southern Spain and adjacent Portugal. Also there are a lot of sites of both which no longer exists - especially the roadsides are ' clean ' now. Instead of daffodils you can find squirting cucumber (Ecballium elaterum), a weed which obviously is able to withstand intensive herbice treatments. Other places were destroyed by roadbuilding and urbanisation.
Concerning hardiness of ' miniatus ' I meant not hardy in the open garden and under the conditions in my part of Germany. I cultivate my plants also in a greenhouse but using a small fan heater I try to keep temperatures above 0 ° Celsius.
My flowers are somewhat behind those of some others but I hope to be able to show some pics later.
Gerd
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Hans, what a beauty. Thank you
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Armin,
Narcissus miniatus - segregated from serotinus recently comes from Southern Spain, the Balearic Islands and Crete. Because of its southern distribution (and always at lower elevations there) it isn't hardy in the north.
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Brian and Gerd
thank you very much for the explanations.
As I don't have a cold house to cultivate N.miniatus I'll continue enjoying the forumists pictures and comments instead ;)
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This is a plant of a small isolated population of the Balearic Islands - it seems less fluffy as the ones Hans showed - but I think it fits with the description.
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It's a little beauty Hans ! Marvelous.. if ever you'd have some seed to spare... ::)
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Thanks Luc – I hope I will get some seed this year – just two flowers are open and it is raining nearly all the time (resembles more Scotland than Majorca)…
Befor it started to rain i could take some pictures of two other autumn flowering relatives of Narcissus miniatus which were given to me by a narcissus specialist of this forum: Narcissus elegans...
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... and Narcissus X perezlarae (N. serotinus (N. miniatus?) X N. humilis)
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Those are very nice Hans. The first time I've seen such a good photo of Narcissus X perezlarae. 8)
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Wow, that last one is a stunner!! :o
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More wonderful flowers Hans !
True beauties !! :o
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Hans, como me gustan esas fotos, enhorabuena! Son preciosos ese narcisos :o
This Narcissus are amazing. I'm about to receive som seeds of N. elegans, I can't see the hour to sow them.
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... and Narcissus X perezlarae (N. serotinus (N. miniatus?) X N. humilis)
Hi Hans,
I have two questions regarding this hybrid, first is it sterile second i have noticed the flower lacks its typical Narcissus crown, is it normal for this hybrid ?
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Thanks to all!
Oron - quite interesting - I had the same question!
I have been answered N. x perezlarae has 2n = 29 Chromosomes (resulting of serotinus (30) X cavanillesia (humilis)(28) - and is therefore sterile (but I will try my luck ;-))
Also this hybrid has a crown - but as I hope you will be able to see it at the picture taken with an other angle - it is extremly small.
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Hans, with such beautiful narcissus to see, I don't suppose there is any doubt that you had a good birthday??! 8)
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Thanks Maggi, we celebrated it with 16years old Lagavulin and a good piece of chocolate cake... ;o)
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Hans,
Now I can see clearly the crown, thank you.
Very interesting hybrid, I was happy to see this morning that I have also a bud of this h. from bulbs sent to me by Rafa a few weeks ago.
And.... happy birthday ;)
oron
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Hi Hans,
Great photos of these beauties!
Happy birthday! my best wishes from Israel :)
Here is a photo for you:
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Thanks Maggi for letting us know that Hans is celebrating his birthday. Best wishes from down under.
Lovely photo Miriam
Pat
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Hi all ,
now here from a sunny day a pic of
Narcissus viridiflorus
Greetings from warm and sunny Germany
Hans
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Hans,
It seems your climate is very close to more southern countries! Unbelievable!
:o
Are the bananas ripe also?
Gerd
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Hi Gerd ,
You know : here the California of Germany !
Yes -I think the bananas are soon ripe .....and we collect in this time fruits from our Ficus ( in the garden )
Ciao
Hans
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Here special for Gerd :
our collection from today ;D
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Thank you Hans,
Take care, fresh figs can promote digestion in an interesting manner ;D
Gerd
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......fresh figs and wild mushrooms.... these Joschkos eat like royalty! 8)
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Thanks for all the wishes :)
Hans, thanks for showing this wonderful Narcissus!
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There's a description of Narcissus x caramulensis at http://www.rjb.csic.es/pdfs/Anales_64(1)_43-46.pdf (http://www.rjb.csic.es/pdfs/Anales_64(1)_43-46.pdf)
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Hans, the viridiflorus is really stunning! :o
Good to know in Germany there is so much warm...to make bananas ripened! What about Coffea arabica, I know you like very much coffee! ;)
Alberto
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Hi all ,
thank you 8)
Maggi : poor royals from your contry .....
Alberto : as you know -I'm drinking only italian coffee ( Poli ) ;D
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Congratulations for all this healthy Narcissi! and too late but happy birthday!
Here in Central Spain, Narcissus viridiflorus is in dormancy, I think this year it won't bloom ::)
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Thanks Maggi, we celebrated it with 16years old Lagavulin and a good piece of chocolate cake... ;o)
Is there another way to celebrate! ::)
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Starts to bloom N. tazzeta x serotinus.
It is a natural hybrid, sterile, 2-5 flowers on a stem.
The nicest thing is the perfum, a mix of both species.
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Exquisite flowers... I would so love to be able to feel that perfume!
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It's hard to decide which is the more enticing, the viridiflorus or the basket of fresh figs!
johnw
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Very nice hybrid, Oron, is it natural?
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I'm beginning to go as green as Hans's superb viridiflorus with all these autumn flowering plants.
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Here in Central Spain, Narcissus viridiflorus is in dormancy, I think this year it won't bloom ::)
Rafa,
How far North does N. viridiflorus grow in Spain? I have only seen it in areas between Malaga to La Linea near Gibralter. I have only been able to get it to produce one squinney bloom here in Northern Ireland. This year I have given it and a few others like N. dubius; N.x allenii, N. miniatus ; N. tortifolius and some tazettas a spell of +2 months in a warm cabinet at 25-26C. I even injected smoke from a bee-keepers smoke gun in an effort to encourage them to bloom.
Some of these species should be useful breeders because their progeny can be fertile and thus lead to further developments. I am about to plant and water - fingers crossed! If anyone has experience of the type of treatments i've been trying I'd like to hear from them
Brian Duncan
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... and Narcissus X perezlarae (N. serotinus (N. miniatus?) X N. humilis)
Hans,
The latest RHS Register still records N.x perezlarae as being a natural hybrid between N. cavanillesii x N.serotinus. It could be this cross though I suspect(as you seem to do) that N. miniatus may be the pollen parent instead of N. serotinus. The humilis name has been used as a synonym for N. dubius; N. cavanillesii and even for N. pseudonarcissus var. humilis. which is all a bit confusing. I think N. cavanillesii is now the accepted name. Pardon my intrusion!
Brian Duncan
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Hi all ,
now here from a sunny day a pic of
Narcissus viridiflorus
Greetings from warm and sunny Germany
Hans
Hi Hans
What a marvellous species and pics. I have not it. I received some seeds from Gibraltar Botanic garden which never have germinated. Thank you for the pic
Dom
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Very nice hybrid, Oron, is it natural?
Rafa, this hybrid is natural, I have found it growing in the wild, i had one bulb 3 years ago, split to 9 this season...
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Exquisite flowers... I would so love to be able to feel that perfume!
Maggie, you are most welcome!!!
Its only 5 hours flight, and in two three weeks time its Colchicum and Crocus paradise down here...
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Interesting that you have problems flowering Narcissus viridiflorus, Brian. The following pictures were taken at the Cruickshank Botanic Garden in Aberdeen last year. They were a bit past their best, but I did not have my camera the first time, and the greenhouse was locked the second time I saw them. When I worked there we usually had two potfuls which grew and increased well and flowered most years. If kept watered they were more or less evergreen and I can't remember if they flowered better with or without a summer rest.
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Here in Central Spain, Narcissus viridiflorus is in dormancy, I think this year it won't bloom ::)
Rafa,
How far North does N. viridiflorus grow in Spain? I have only seen it in areas between Malaga to La Linea near Gibralter. I have only been able to get it to produce one squinney bloom here in Northern Ireland. This year I have given it and a few others like N. dubius; N.x allenii, N. miniatus ; N. tortifolius and some tazettas a spell of +2 months in a warm cabinet at 25-26C. I even injected smoke from a bee-keepers smoke gun in an effort to encourage them to bloom.
Some of these species should be useful breeders because their progeny can be fertile and thus lead to further developments. I am about to plant and water - fingers crossed! If anyone has experience of the type of treatments i've been trying I'd like to hear from them
Brian Duncan
Rafa's will be in his garden and not wild.
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I have only been able to get it to produce one squinney bloom here in Northern Ireland. This year I have given it and a few others like N. dubius; N.x allenii, N. miniatus ; N. tortifolius and some tazettas a spell of +2 months in a warm cabinet at 25-26C. I even injected smoke from a bee-keepers smoke gun in an effort to encourage them to bloom.
Some of these species should be useful breeders because their progeny can be fertile and thus lead to further developments. I am about to plant and water - fingers crossed! If anyone has experience of the type of treatments i've been trying I'd like to hear from them
Brian Duncan
Well, this gives me reason to report something about a new cultivation method which I tried the
first time this season. This is by no means methodologically sound and surely improvable but it seems to be a step in the right direction.
I topdressed all pots with brown lava grit. Then they were plunged in black 'Glasasche', an ash which is used for draining. Because of the dark colour of the grit and the ash all warmth during sunny days is collected. Additionally I installed 2 soil heating cables (25 + 30 W), one at the bottom of the pots and another at the upper third of the plunge medium.
So the temperature around the bulbs was kept always above + 25 ° C, sometimes up to 50 ° C.
During spells of colder weather I covered the area with air cushion foil in order to support the effect of the heating cables.
I started 'heating' at June 10th and finished at the end of August.
The bulbs were repotted and a first watering followed. As soon as the first flowers appeared
artificial light was added.
I believe the pics do not need an explanation. The results were excellent.
Maybe there are more effective methods for warming even for non commercial growers and the periode can be shortened.
Some pics of flowering plants will follow.
Gerd
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Here are some pics from autumn flowering daffodils
1. Narcissus elegans
2. Narcissus cavanillesii from Spain (left) and Morocco (right)
3. Narcissus cavanillesii 'tube'
4. Narcissus x perezlarae
5. Narcissus x perezlarae - sideview
6. Narcissus x perezlarae - colour changed when older
7. Narcissus miniatus
8. Narcissus miniatus - opening
9. Narcissus miniatus - corona later (miniatus = golden)
10. Narcissus miniatus - tube dark and gradually tapering
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and the rest for today
This is Narcissus serotinus - see the yellow corona and the much paler abruptly inflated tube
(than the tube of N. miniatus)
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Fantastic display - your method seems to work so far.
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yes very nice display, Gerd
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Wonderful display Gerd !!! :o
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Gratulations Gerd!
It seems that our discussion in January about giving the bulbs during summer the right
period of temperatures of at least 25º C. is giving good results!
A lot of effort, but very effective!
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Great display Gerd! - wonderful to see them all together. :)
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Gerd,
Thank you for your excellent pictures!! Great stuff! 8)
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I have two serotinus flowering now. One from Turkey (ex PC) has a corona bright orange and like a 1mm deep cup. The other from goodness knows (silent 'k') where has an almost non-existant greenish corona.
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Gerd wrote: I topdressed all pots with brown lava grit. Then they were plunged in black 'Glasasche', an ash which is used for draining. Because of the dark colour of the grit and the ash all warmth during sunny days is collected. Additionally I installed 2 soil heating cables (25 + 30 W), one at the bottom of the pots and another at the upper third of the plunge medium.
So the temperature around the bulbs was kept always above + 25 ° C, sometimes up to 50 ° C.
During spells of colder weather I covered the area with air cushion foil in order to support the effect of the heating cables.
I started 'heating' at June 10th and finished at the end of August.
The bulbs were repotted and a first watering followed. As soon as the first flowers appeared
artificial light was added.
Gerd,
Thanks for details of your methods that have worked so well. I assume the bulbs were dry in the pots during the warm treatment? I fear I may have been too late getting the bulbs into heat - more like Aug. to Oct. rather than your June -Aug.. Also, I was treating 'dry bulbs' in nets in a simple cabinet - easier no doubt but I still have to find if it works. My late treatment may have confused the bulbs!
I enjoyed your pictures - such a comprehensive lot!
Brian
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I finally have pics of both forms of Narcissus serotinus that I have. One, ex PC, from Turkey and one possibly from Zakynthos.
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Anthony ,
I would say the second is a N.miniatus - but I'm not a specialist for this plants ......
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Wonderful wee gems Anthony ! :D
Must give them a try myself...
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Anthony,
Both are very cute. Nice!! 8)
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I finally have pics of both forms of Narcissus serotinus that I have. One, ex PC, from Turkey and one possibly from Zakynthos.
Anthony,
Your Narcissus from Zakynthos is very interesting, first as you have mentioned it lacks the Orange corona, second the flower seem like it comes 90degrees to the stalk with dark green colored and third i see that leaves are already mature, which is also not common at time of bloom.
Was it raised from seed and does it set seeds?
I find it just beautiful :o
Is there any chance of virdiflorus blood in it?
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Anthony,
Your Narcissus from Zakynthos is very interesting, first as you have mentioned it lacks the Orange corona, second the flower seem like it comes 90degrees to the stalk with dark green colored and third i see that leaves are already mature, which is also not common at time of bloom.
Was it raised from seed and does it set seeds?
I find it just beautiful :o
Is there any chance of virdiflorus blood in it?
Oron, I will pollinate it. An earlier flower in the pot has a seedhead. I must admit these bulbs were not seed grown so to my knowledge have no viridiflorus blood in them.
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This is part one of the last batch of my autumn flowering daffodils
1. N. miniatus with 8 petals
2. + 3. N. miniatus with an orange shade
4. The same species in 2007
5. + 6. N. serotinus - exceptionally large form
7. - 9. N. x alleniae (miniatus x viridiflorus)
pics of a form which is nearer to the miniatus parent
Gerd
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Second part
1. - 3. Narcissus x alleniae in a form close to viridiflorus
4. + 5. N. viridiflorus photographed in Spain
6. - 8. N. viridiflorus in cultivation
Gerd
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Are the hybrids your own crosses Gerd? I like the variability in them, and perhaps they are more vigorous than the individual species?
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Wonderful series Gerd - and such a variety !!
Thanks for showing !
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Great effort with great success Gerd!!
Super pictures. They seem to flower very good this year, so many stems on one pot!
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Great effort with great success Gerd!!
Super pictures. They seem to flower very good this year, so many stems on one pot!
And on pic 5, viridiflorus Bol.on the previous page..... so many flowers on one stem!
Wonderful , so good to see these... Thanks ! ::)
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Alltogether, thanks for the compliments!
Are the hybrids your own crosses Gerd? I like the variability in them, and perhaps they are more vigorous than the individual species?
No, they are from clones which occures naturally.
Especially the N. x alleniae which is nearer to virdiflorus seems to be rather vigorous.
Gerd
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Thanks Gerd. I may try to keep some pollen from my serotinus and pollinate my viridiflorus when the flowers open in a week or two? A year or two back there were some amazing viridiflorus hybrids (produced in the USA) shown on the forum. Are they still around? Does anyone grow them (still)?
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A year or two back there were some amazing viridiflorus hybrids (produced in the USA) shown on the forum. Are they still around? Does anyone grow them (still)?
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1167.0 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1167.0)
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I saw those Luit (www.wfleenen.com doesn't work for me) but are they available to the bulb grower?
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I saw those Luit (www.wfleenen.com doesn't work for me) but are they available to the bulb grower?
Anthony, this nursery has no retail trading but you might have a look on this page under "relations".
There is a british trader, who might know if some are available in GB.
On there Homepage you find some more about the nursery, activities and history.
http://www.wfleenen.com/?lang=en&page=14&subpage=16 (http://www.wfleenen.com/?lang=en&page=14&subpage=16)
Leenen has also a website with only some pictures of these Narcissus.
http://www.viridiflora.com/ (http://www.viridiflora.com/)
At least you can enjoy the pictures. ;)
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Why do I have the suspicion that the life of these wonderful green hybrids will be limited to how long it takes to produce the next money-spinner from them? I know that it is unfair of whoever it was said that 'only an anorak would want to grow viridiforus', but even these hybrids could never grab the general 'daffodil-growing' public enough to warrent being grown for wholesale. There's some lovely plants in www.viridiflora.com.
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The weather in the Peloponnese was excellent and Dan decided he would have a swim just south of Kalamata - a cetain likeness to the famous Loch Ness monster photo ;D
Suitably relaxed we started our drive to Stoupa and shortly after, alongside the road, we spotted Narcissus miniatus (?). In the photo showing 3 flowers, one is almost circular
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A joy to behold Arthur. :D
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Why do I have the suspicion that the life of these wonderful green hybrids will be limited to how long it takes to produce the next money-spinner from them? I know that it is unfair of whoever it was said that 'only an anorak would want to grow viridiforus', but even these hybrids could never grab the general 'daffodil-growing' public enough to warrent being grown for wholesale. There's some lovely plants in www.viridiflora.com.
I'm not usually very keen on hybrid daffodils but some of these are indeed lovely. I wonder whether we will ever see them in the UK?
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Suitably relaxed we started our drive to Stoupa and shortly after, alongside the road, we spotted Narcissus miniatus (?). In the photo showing 3 flowers, one is almost circular
Arthur,
Beautiful pics of autumn flowering plants alltogether. The daffodil is N. miniatus without any doubt.
Gerd
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Super pictures from everybody - I enjoyed very much. Thank you.
Luit,
thanks for the links.
Some of the N.viridiflorus hybrids are realy pretty and quite colorful. Amazing me. 8)
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Arthur
beautiful pictures as have been all the others in the other threads.
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Arthur and Gerd,
Some beautiful pics of some beautiful species and hybrids. Thank you very much!! The last of the daffs are over here I think (maybe a last flower or two on N. bulbocodium serotinues) so great to see more, particularly the autumn species which are so new to me. Now I'm getting impatient for my miniatus seedlings from Hans J to get to flowering size. You're providing great inspiration!! 8)
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First seed to germinate this year for me is a potful of Narcissus miniatus coming up like mustard and cress on the laundry room windowsill. Having worked my way through this thread I can't wait for them to bloom!
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I forgot to mentioned that Narcissus x perez-larae Font Quer is a fertil species in certain localities in Valencia, and we currently name this new nomospecies under name Narcissus piifontianus in honor to our botanist Pio Font Quer.
Maybe It coud be possible the same case in Narcissus x alentejanus, Im sure there is in any part Portugal, Extremadura... same evolution proceess.
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Howdy All,
A couple of rather late postings (they flowered for me in March) of my first ever flowering of Narcissus miniatus from seed (seed from an SRGCer too, you know who you are. Thanks!). Only 3 flowers so far, but I am so pleased with them. I don't know whether the difference in how spidery the flowers were to do with their location or not, but 2 flowers were very spidery and the other was very broad. Are they variance within the species, or just related to the health of the bulb and therefore the size of the flower?
Whatever the reason, I was VERY pleased to have them, particularly as they were from seed from a friend. 8) 8)
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Congratulations Paul ;D
Hans
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Thank you Hans. It was nice to successfully flower them, to show that the seed wasn't wasted by being sent here. I've not grown a lot of Narcissus from seed, so it was an achievement to get this new (for me) species to flowering.
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Great miniatus flowers, Paul... how long is that from seed? I expect they will go on to do well for you having made this good a start. :D
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Maggi,
I'll look it up tomorrow and see how long it was. The one with the broader flower was an accident, in that it obviously got tossed in with the recycled mix or something as it flowered somewhere unexpectedly. When I saw buds emerging I thought it was going to be a viridiflora (also not supposed to be in that spot) so was very surprised when I discovered a white flower open and realised what it was. ;D The pot of them had it's flowers open a couple of days later.... I had been watching the 2 scapes emerging and was waiting for them to open, but they were beaten by the other one.
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Lovely Daff, Paul. I do not often have much success with germinating Narcissus seed, and have often wondered if this could be due to insufficient cooling of the seed after sowing? I have had great success soaking seed of various things, e.g. Placea, Cyclamen and Polyanthus, in the fridge for a week, changing the water every day and then sowing. I would like to try this with Narcissus too and see if it makes any difference in germination percentages.
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Rogan,
I just leave mine outside for the winter, so they get plenty of cold in that regard (but not too much either, thankfully). One of these years we're going to get back to our historic winter temps and a lot of things are going to struggle with that few extra degrees (oC) more cold. ::)
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Well done, Paul, a lovely narcissus. Always an achievement to flower a bulb from seed, but very special when it's something like that.
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Thanks Anne. :D
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I have to agree with everyone else Paul, and I like the two distinct types you have.
I dont like hearing all the talk about the lack of success with Narcissus seedlings to flower. I currently have about 300 first year seedlings up this year, all but a dozen or so are hoops. I also have about 50 second year bulbocodium seedlings up and a few others. Last year was the first year I really started to collect seed for growing.
From what I get from reading the forum last year I thought that they were very easy to grow from seeds, it appears that the hoops are anyway.
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No, I agree with you, Kees. They are relatively easy from seed - the achievement in most cases is being patient for 3-4 years until the exciting bit starts!