Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: Paul T on July 20, 2008, 11:35:48 AM

Title: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Paul T on July 20, 2008, 11:35:48 AM
Howdy All,

I am intending to try a bit of twin-scaling type action with a Galanthus or two this year.  I'm a bit nervous as I am concerned that they'll just rot, but I will look up the process properly at the end of the season before I try it during dormancy.  I do have a question on a related experiment though........ if I were to dig down while the plant was in growth and carefully pass a small knife through the growing bulb and cut down to the basal plate (i.e cut the bulb in half, but only from the base to a third of the way from the top) and then perhaps across that as well (i.e into quarters, but only from the base to a third of the way from the top), carefully leaving the bulb in situ, roots intact, and the top third of the bulb undamaged and leaves intact.... would this function similarly to a chipping?  I realise of course that it would not flower next year as the central area would be cut into parts, but I am wondering whether this "damage" would result in the "quarters" of the bulb still being able to feed from the leaves above which were kept undamage with the top third of the bulb, and the roots below, perhaps producing better bulbils during the growing season, which would then mature further during dormancy (when I would then properly sever the bulb into 4 parts).  It is just an idea I had which I wanted to ask about.

Has anyone out there tried slicing or damaging the bulb while in growth to promote offset/bulbil production?  If so, how did you go?  It might be a crazy idea, and I am quite prepared to be told so if that is the case, but I wanted to raise it to see what people thought.  If it worked as I envisioned then there should be a better result than just splitting it up once dormant shouldn't there?

I have seen Ian's bulblogs where he talks about the scales from Fritillarias successfully producing lots of bulbs, but the one time I tried this I got lots of bulbils on the imperialis bulb, but once put into growing media the whole thing just rotted.  I am assuming I should have given them longer, or should have doused with fungicide or something like that.  I was trying to think of whether these things could work in situ instead of while dormant, which is where I came up with my little Galanthus scheme above.

Comments please?  Good or bad, I am open to suggestions.  Please at least be civil though.  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Martin Baxendale on July 22, 2008, 03:38:25 PM
Paul, I've never tried what you suggest but a couple of thoughts occur to me:

When chipping dormant bulbs, you chop off the top bit of the bulb to induce the lower part to make new bulbils, in the same way as you take the tip out of a shrub shoot to make the lower side-buds break. Cutting the base of the bulb with the growing leaves still intact would not achieve that and I expect the bulbs might well fail to produce bulbils at the base as the existing leaves would maintain dominance.

Cutting bulbs in the soil will risk rot getting into them. A major advantage of chipping dormant bulbs is that they can be cleaned of dirt, old tunics, roots etc, chopped and kept in moist vermiculite to form bulbils in what are virtually sterile conditions, greatly reducing the risks of rotting.

I'd recommend waiting for the dormant season and trying the traditional method. The most important thing, I've found, for success is to ensure the vermiculite in the plastic bags is not too damp - better a bit drier than wetter.

All of this is not to say that you shouldn't experiment if you want to with your idea. But pick an unimportant bulb to try it on. It might help if you cut off the tops of the leaves to encourage bud formation lower down in the form of new bulbils. Watering with fungicide, or puffing with some flowers of sulphur, after cutting the bulb might also help, as might pouring some sharp sound around the cut bulb.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Paul T on July 23, 2008, 12:17:38 AM
Martin,

Thank you for the reply.  My thoughts with leaving the leaves intact was that they'd be feeding food down to the "bulb" which now is in 4 quarters and can't do it's traditional growing.  You're right though that the fungal problem would be much greater.  I'll try the traditional way straight after dormancy.  Must get myself some vermiculite as it isn't something I use elsewhere.  Well worth it if it works though.  Hopefully better than my efforts with Frit imperialis a few years back, which produced bulbils and then everything promptly rotted when planted into normal media.  Probably not left to mature enough first I would reckon.  ::)

I have to ask... "sharp sound"?  I'm assuming it was a typo and you meant "sharp sand" but I thought I had better check in case it was a commercial name of a fungicide or something that you get over there in the UK?

Thanks again for the response.  Nice to know someone has actually been chipping and scaling.  ;D
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Otto Fauser on July 23, 2008, 02:23:49 PM
Paul,
 Marcus Harvey does a lot of chipping/twin-scaling, and I'm sure he will share his experience with you,
   Otto.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Joakim B on July 23, 2008, 02:59:31 PM
Paul when I first read it I thought Martin meant that a good threat to make them do what You wanted (as a joke) then realised it was sand. I am not sure threats work with plants even though I have read many who testify to the contrary.

(Martin I hope You do not take offence. Your reply was only serious and did not have the silly sugestion that I had, but I did not think it was impossible to come from You since You also like to joke. Generally in a separate comment though. So hope it was oK to Joke about it. Read about Your breeding and hope it will turn out nicely)

Kind regards
Joakim
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Paul T on July 24, 2008, 02:23:39 AM
Thanks for the responses.  Otto, you're right it would probably be worthwhile talking to him.  I just don't like to disturb people, particularly as I know that Marcus would be busy at the moment with the recent catalogue etc.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Hagen Engelmann on November 24, 2008, 09:15:45 PM
Galanthophiles, Maggi,
we have such a good forum and a topic about twinscaling without pics. It isn`t the time for twinscaling but it´s the time of long and dark evenings. Let us accumulate this topic with good shots and pics. Here are two of my first twinscaling efforts. The first result is wellknown. But Brian and Chris told me the chance of getting bulbills also from the head parts of the bulb. Thank you. It was successfully done.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: annew on November 24, 2008, 09:47:36 PM
Just a thought about Martin's suggestions about cutting the tops off the leaves, and off the dormant bulb while chipping. The latter process, as far as I know, is simply to make a flat base to sit the bulb on when you turn it upside down to cut it through the base plate. The tip of the bulb is equivalent to the tips of leaves (the bulb's layers are modified leaves), and trimming bits off leaves will not induce side shoots (=bulblets) to form. You would have to take out the growing point to do this. This is found right down in the centre of the base plate. Similarly, trimming the ends off leaves of a growing plant will not induce bulbil formation, any more than cutting in half the leaves of, say, a rhododendron will induce sideshoot formation, again the leading shoot would have to be removed.
I hope this is correct! Maybe a professional botanist can enlighten us. :-\
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: annew on November 24, 2008, 09:51:10 PM
Just another tip - use plastic boxes (eg cream cheese or margarine tubs) instead of bags for incubating the chips. They can be stacked up easily and still retain good air spaces inside them. Martin's tip about the dryish vermiculite is important, too wet and it leads to disaster. I use 1 part by volume cool boiled water to 10 parts dry medium vermiculite.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Paddy Tobin on November 24, 2008, 09:56:06 PM
How did I miss this posting by Paul back in July? But I am glad to see it resurrected again by Hagen and to see his success with twin scaling. My  own story with twin scaling is that the scales produced bulbils but that when planted in the garden they did not seem to bulk up as quickly as bulbs left to their natural devices.

Finally, Paul, how exactly are you going to get under the snowdrop bulbs to do this proposed basal splitting. Would it be of any use if I started tunnelling down from the Northern Hemisphere to do the job for you.

Sorry for having fun Paul. The idea struck me as a very funny picture, you under the bulbs to cut the basal plate.

Paddy
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropman on November 24, 2008, 10:07:25 PM
But Brian and Chris told me the chance of getting bulbills also from the head parts of the bulb. Thank you. It was successfully.
Hagen - thank you for posting your photo showing the 'top' of the bulb which has produced bulbils.

A large number of the snowdrops that I have had twin scaled over the past few years have done this, with some forms, like 'Spindlestone Surprise', producing a great many bulbils/pips. I have been asking people to pot up these bulbils/pips separately from the rest so that we can prove one way or the other whether the bulbils/pips which form on bulb 'tops' actually do go on to produce flowering bulbs - did you pot yours up separately?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on November 24, 2008, 10:11:23 PM
Well done Hagen 8)

Anne here is a picture of some chipping this year with the top showing growth too.  I think Rod Leeds may have been the first to employ the tops as well as chipping/twin-scaling.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on November 24, 2008, 10:23:44 PM
One of the things that strikes me is that the bulbils on the top growth are not as strong or as large as those from the chips/scales.  Only time will tell whether they produce good plants - perhaps they will take a bit longer to do so.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropman on November 24, 2008, 10:33:37 PM
Brian - yes, I think that it was Rod Leeds that was the first to start potting up the tops, along with the scales but, to the best of my knowledge, he has never potted them separately.

If indeed the 'tops' do go on to produce viable bulbs, then I would expect them to take at least a year longer than chips/scales to reach flowering stage.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: johnw on November 24, 2008, 11:06:54 PM
Hagen & Brian:

Guess I'd better getting cracking on 'Rosemary Burnham'.  I wonder when you consider the best time to get started? I was thinking of June when the leaves have died off. This way the bulbils would be ready to sever at about the time the parent within a month of rooting. 

johnw
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Martin Baxendale on November 24, 2008, 11:20:34 PM
Good point, Anne. I obviously hadn't thought it through. I originally understood that taking the top off the bulb was to create a nice flat surface for cutting down onto, but someone once said to me that it also helped stimulate bulb formation, though I can't now recall who it was. When I think about it, you don't cut the tops off lily scales but they still make bulbils, so it shouldn't be necessary, at least in a dormant bulb - though perhaps trying chopping a bulb while in growth might be slightly different, if the leaves and flower stem are in full growth and creating an apical dominance? Dunno.

I too for the first time this year popped the bulb tops in the bags with the chips, and got a lot of small bulbils on them. Have potted some separately to see how they develop compared to the bulbils from the chips. Will post re. the results later if and when they make top growth.

Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on November 24, 2008, 11:22:22 PM
I agree, Anne it does seem unlikely, but, it does work!

Works with some other bulby things too, I think.  :-\

John, as to chipping and chopping snowdrops ....(not that we do that)  We do such things to narcissus in June but there is no root growth at all on them when it is done. I would worry that chipping when the root growth is beginning would be too much of a "shock" to the bulb...... what do others think?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: rob krejzl on November 24, 2008, 11:39:50 PM
Quote
When I think about it, you don't cut the tops off lily scales but they still make bulbils,

I have seen recommendations to cut lily scales in two to maximise bulbil production, but I also understand that one snaps such a scale off as close to the base plate as possible to ensure the sharpest concentration gradient of hormones and thus speed up bulbil production.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Martin Baxendale on November 24, 2008, 11:52:03 PM
I have seen recommendations to cut lily scales in two to maximise bulbil production, but I also understand that one snaps such a scale off as close to the base plate as possible to ensure the sharpest concentration gradient of hormones and thus speed up bulbil production.

That could explain why the bulbils on the tops of the snowdrop bulbs tend to be much smaller than the bulbils on the chips - higher concentrations of the requisite chemical signals for bulbils formation close to the basal plate are likely to induce faster development of the bulbils than if they form higher up the scale. Bulbils that form halfway up lily scales tend to be much smaller than those at the base, and I've noticed the same thing when the occasional bulbils has formed halfway up a snowdrop chip as well as a larger one at the base.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: johnw on November 25, 2008, 12:05:08 AM
I agree, Anne it does seem unlikely, but, it does work!

Works with some other bulby things too, I think.  :-\

John, as to chipping and chopping snowdrops ....(not that we do that)  We do such things to narcissus in June but there is no root growth at all on them when it is done. I would worry that chipping when the root growth is beginning would be too much of a "shock" to the bulb...... what do others think?

Maggi  - I have revised my note. I meant to say"chip in June so the bulbils night be severed in autumn just when mothers are beginning to root. Hence they would be on the usual time cycle for growth."

Does this make sense?

johnw
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Martin Baxendale on November 25, 2008, 12:18:48 AM
Maggi  - I have revised my note. I meant to say"chip in June so the bulbils night be severed in autumn just when mothers are beginning to root. Hence they would be on the usual time cycle for growth."

Does this make sense?

johnw

That timing is about right, except that you say the bulbs would be 'severed' in autumn. When potting up, the bulbils should be left attached to the scales, not severed from them, as the old bulb scales still contain plenty of food reserves to help the new bulbils develop.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on November 25, 2008, 09:18:06 AM
Whoops missed all this last night - not a night bird like you lot!!  As Martin says John timing is about right, although if your weather is like ours this year you could probably start mid-May.  It is best done when the bulb has died down and is 'resting' - poor thing, what a disturbance :o
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: annew on November 25, 2008, 09:21:52 AM
I'd not meant to imply that the cut off bulb tops wouldn't sprout bulbils - I've been doing this for the last 2 seasons since being tipped off by a snowdrop expert, with some success, only that doing so wouldn't induce the bottom half of the bulb to produce more. As Martin says, it is removal of apical dominance that stimulates side shoot production, and in the case of bulbs the apex isn't at the end of the leaves but deep in the bulb. Which starts another train of thought - where is the growing point in a corm eg crocus?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Diane Whitehead on November 25, 2008, 07:25:40 PM
A group of us had a chipping party last May.  Everyone followed instructions,
except for me.  I thought it likely that sterilizing with alcohol would be
sufficient, so I did not use a fungicide. 

Mine started rotting in the summer.  Everyone else had success, and their
chips are now potted and putting up leaves.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on November 25, 2008, 07:29:00 PM
Point taken Anne, I hadn't read your post carefully enough, sorry :-*
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Hagen Engelmann on November 25, 2008, 08:12:00 PM
Thank you Diane, this information is is real helpfull.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Tony Willis on November 25, 2008, 08:14:02 PM
Perhaps we should not be surprised that the cut of tops produce bulbils,because my understanding is that the scales are in fact only fore-shortened leaves. Whilst I have no scientific knowledge of how it works, in many other plants such as for instance gesneriads and begonias cutting up the leaves and rooting the pieces is the accepted method of propagation. New plantlets are produced at the cut surfaces. I did in fact see many years ago a demonstration where the corolla of a narcisssus had been induced to root although  it did not make any further growth.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Anthony Darby on November 25, 2008, 08:25:41 PM
Perhaps we should not be surprised that the cut of tops produce bulbils,because my understanding is that the scales are in fact only fore-shortened leaves.

Would these be taken as short cuts to more bulbs? ;)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: johnw on November 25, 2008, 08:46:32 PM
Martin et al: Thanks for this, I would have severed the bulbils.  How exactly does one treat the top if deciding to use it as well?  I assume just add the vermiculite whole.

johnw
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on November 25, 2008, 10:07:58 PM
John I just put it in whole, but it in some of them the 'rings' have separated and this gives the bulbils more room to develop. 
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Martin Baxendale on November 25, 2008, 10:28:24 PM
John I just put it in whole, but it in some of them the 'rings' have separated and this gives the bulbils more room to develop. 

Same here.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: annew on November 25, 2008, 10:44:54 PM
Me too. Next time I will pot them up seperately to see how they compare to the others.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on November 25, 2008, 10:46:47 PM
Me too. Next time I will pot them up seperately to see how they compare to the others.

All very well, but all these control/experimental pots take up SPACE, don't they?  :-\ We've got little of that left as it is!
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropman on November 25, 2008, 10:48:43 PM
I have not yet seen it, but Colin Mason has written an article for the RHS Daffodils, Snowdrops & Tulips Yearbook 2008-2009 entitled 'Galanthomania and twin-scaling' - given his great experience with twin-scaling, I am sure that this will be worth reading.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Anthony Darby on November 25, 2008, 11:01:12 PM
What about excessive chipping leading to poor quality offspring? If this was the case, could you send bulbs back because they were chipped?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropman on November 25, 2008, 11:02:16 PM
It seems that, quite often, when the time comes to pot up the chips/twin scales some of them are still blind i.e. they have not produced bulbils or pips.

Some people pot the blind chips/twin scales up with the rest, on the basis that they may still produce bulbils, whilst others throw the blind chips/twin scales away believing that to pot them up could result in them rotting off in the pot thereby putting the chips/twin scales that have produced bulbils at risk.

I would be interested to hear what Hagen, Martin, Brian, Anne et al do?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Martin Baxendale on November 25, 2008, 11:38:15 PM
Chris, I always pot chips that haven't made bulbils along with those that have, in the hope that they will sprout eventually. And I've done the same this year with the tops as well. Anything that isn't rotten and looks clean and healthy goes in the pot. I've never had a problem with whole pots rotting off, so assume nothing bad comes of this habit.

Anthony, most snowdrops seem to chip fine and there's usually no problem with offspring varying from the parents in my experience. Where a snowdrop, for whatever reason (unstable genetics?), tends to produce offspring that vary from the original, as we've all heard 'South Hayes' may do, then I'd say if this happens you've every right to ask for your money back - the grower should be aware of this problem and grow the offspring on long enough to be sure they grow and flower in character before selling.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: ian mcenery on November 25, 2008, 11:49:47 PM
Chris you are right Colin Mason is an expert at twin scaling he also has some super plants for sale, examples of which have found their way into my garden. He is also a friend and member of the Birmingham AGS group and often brings plants along to our meetings for the sales table. But for those who want some advice now on twin scaling there is already good guidance on Judy's Snowdrop site (owned by Janet) http://www.judyssnowdrops.co.uk/Propagation/Twin-Scaling/twin-scaling.htm (http://www.judyssnowdrops.co.uk/Propagation/Twin-Scaling/twin-scaling.htm)

There are also some super photos of many snowdrops to cheer up all those with the dreaded white fever
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropman on November 26, 2008, 08:09:42 AM
Chris, I always pot chips that haven't made bulbils along with those that have, in the hope that they will sprout eventually. And I've done the same this year with the tops as well. Anything that isn't rotten and looks clean and healthy goes in the pot. I've never had a problem with whole pots rotting off, so assume nothing bad comes of this habit.
Martin - thanks for your response - do you know whether any of these 'blind' chips have actually gone on to produce viable bulbs?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on November 26, 2008, 09:08:00 AM
Quote
Chris, I always pot chips that haven't made bulbils along with those that have, in the hope that they will sprout eventually... Anything that isn't rotten and looks clean and healthy goes in the pot.

Yes I do the same Chris, but I haven't monitored for results I'm afraid.

Quote
Where a snowdrop, for whatever reason (unstable genetics?), tends to produce offspring that vary from the original, ... the grower should be aware of this problem and grow the offspring on long enough to be sure they grow and flower in character before selling.

Martin would this account for the variation in Ronald Mackenzie's G.'Hyde Lodge' this year - perhaps from twin-scaling from too young a bulb?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Martin Baxendale on November 26, 2008, 01:41:20 PM
Martin would this account for the variation in Ronald Mackenzie's G.'Hyde Lodge' this year - perhaps from twin-scaling from too young a bulb?

As far as I'm aware, it's mainly markings that can vary in one or two snowdrops after chipping, and usually markings on the outers, like 'South Hayes', which generally speaking can be variable in intensity in snowdrops that exhibit them, so are probably a bit genetically unstable.

I've chipped 'Hyde Lodge' and never had any problems with it becoming atypical, and I wouldn't expect chipping to affect the ovary shape, which in John's pic is clearly very different to the ovary of 'Hyde Lodge'. Ovary shape is pretty constant, which is why Matt Bishop uses it in his descriptions in the book.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropman on November 26, 2008, 02:44:44 PM
Martin would this account for the variation in Ronald Mackenzie's G.'Hyde Lodge' this year - perhaps from twin-scaling from too young a bulb?

Brian - another possibility is that the plants might have been bought in from a third party - I do not know if the Snowdrop Company do this, but I believe that one or two of the other snowdrop sellers do.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: mark smyth on November 26, 2008, 03:31:27 PM
I know a few years ago he was buying in surplus snowdrops. Please dont ask where from.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on November 26, 2008, 03:33:17 PM
Thanks Martin, Chris and Mark.  I also noticed that there is a second bud coming through so wondered whether it just needed to build up a bit of oomph to show it's true characteristics, I'll keep an eye on it.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: annew on November 26, 2008, 09:49:37 PM
I usually leave any unsprouted chips for longer to see if they will - this year Trym took 4 weeks longer than other varieties, but eventually did produce good bulbils. If that failed, and the chips were in good condition, I would plant them anyway. I'll make a note infuture.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropman on November 26, 2008, 11:23:00 PM
Thanks to Martin, Brian & Anne for confirming that you pot up the blind chips as well.

Anne, I am always amazed by the massive variation in time between different varieties of snowdrop - my G. woronowii 'Green Flash' had to be potted up after just 14 weeks because the chips had already started to produce a root, whereas with G. nivalis 'Monika' even after 24 weeks, when they were all potted up, most of the chips were still blind and only a few had very tiny bulbils (not holding out too much hope for the latter by the way).
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropman on November 28, 2008, 03:05:29 PM
Gerard is listing a nivalis 'Maximus'. This name has already been used for a plicatus in the past

There is also a form of elwesii in circulation with the cultivar epithet 'Maximus' (not to be confused with the similar sounding G. elwesii 'Maximum')
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on November 28, 2008, 03:52:07 PM
Quote
Quote from: mark smyth on Today at 01:24:01 PM
Gerard is listing a nivalis 'Maximus'. This name has already been used for a plicatus in the past

Quote from Chris:
There is also a form of elwesii in circulation with the cultivar epithet 'Maximus' (not to be confused with the similar sounding G. elwesii 'Maximum')


Chris, is there nothing that can be done to "tidy up" all these confusingly similar names? Doesn't the RHC Narcissus Register work to prevent this sort of muddle? Is there nothing similar in place for the snowdrops?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: mark smyth on November 28, 2008, 04:37:24 PM
I would have though Matt Bishop holds list.

There any many snowdrops now with names to catch the addict. It seems to be mainly from people who have never been to e.g. the Galanthus Gala or the RHS shows to see what is available and how good they look. If every green tipped elwesii found in a garden centre was named we would be inundated with named varieties.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropman on November 28, 2008, 05:02:36 PM
Chris, is there nothing that can be done to "tidy up" all these confusingly similar names? Doesn't the RHC Narcissus Register work to prevent this sort of muddle? Is there nothing similar in place for the snowdrops?
Maggi - The ICRA for Galanthus is the KAVB in Holland but very few Galanthus names have been registered with this organisation.

The 'Snowdrops' Monograph (by Messrs Bishop, Davis & Grimshaw), published in 2001 (2nd Edition 2006), and which contained the names of approx 500 cultivars, is widely regarded as the most accurate record of snowdrop names and the authors went to considerable lengths when writing it to try to resolve situations where, for instance, more than one snowdrop was circulating under the same name, where invalid names had been used etc.

Unfortunately, since the publication of this Monograph, a very considerable number of further snowdrops have been named, but there has been no effective system/control in place over this naming frenzy - I know of approx 800 named cultivars, over and above those already recorded in the 'Snowdrops' Monograph, but suspect that there are many more still to be discovered.

I do what I can to try to resolve situations where more than one person has used the same name, where invalid names have been used etc, but this is as yet only on an informal basis - whilst I have received a good reaction and have achieved some success (particularly where duplication of naming has occurred) this is all very much 'after the event'.

I am keen to see some form of easy to use Register being set up and have developed some outline proposals, but this initiative is at a very early stage - in the meantime, for anyone thinking of naming a new snowdrop, I remain willing both to check my Database for any prior usage of the name and, where requested, to offer guidance/advice on naming.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Martin Baxendale on November 28, 2008, 05:20:54 PM
Good God, Chris! When you previously mentioned 800 named snowdrops I thought you meant including the 500-odd in the monograph. Do you really have records of another 800 on top of those, i.e. about 1,300 in total?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropman on November 28, 2008, 05:35:52 PM
Good God, Chris! When you previously mentioned 800 named snowdrops I thought you meant including the 500-odd in the monograph. Do you really have records of another 800 on top of those, i.e. about 1,300 in total?

Martin

Yep, 800 on top of the 500 in the 'Snowdrops' Monograph, and growing, almost daily  ::)

I am sure that you must have named a few from your breeding programme & would love to have a note of them  ;)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropman on November 28, 2008, 05:42:51 PM
Given the size of your database, Chris, I would think that a word or six with you before naming a snowdrop would seem an eminently sensible idea and I think it is good of you to offer assistance in this way, however informally..... the current situation is just too ridiculous, in my opinion.
Thank you Maggi - I would certainly want to encourage anyone, thinking of naming a new snowdrop, to get in touch with me - preferably before they have named their snowdrop ;D
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Martin Baxendale on November 28, 2008, 05:54:52 PM
Martin
I am sure that you must have named a few from your breeding programme & would love to have a note of them  ;)

I've selected out quite a few nice seedlings over the years and chipped them to make clumps for the garden. And two or three of those that are especially good may get named eventually, but only when I'm sure they're strong, healthy growers disease resistant and good garden plants as well as lovely flowers. But to date I haven't named a single one. Now excuse me, I must go and polish my halo.   :D
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropman on November 28, 2008, 06:31:49 PM
two or three of those that are especially good may get named eventually, but only when I'm sure they're strong, healthy growers disease resistant and good garden plants as well as lovely flowers. But to date I haven't named a single one. Now excuse me, I must go and polish my halo.   :D
Polish away Martin  ;D

I doubt that many of the 800 named cultivars that I have unearthed would get anywhere near satisfying the criteria that you set out, which should be the yardstick for deciding whether, or not, a snowdrop cultivar is name worthy.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Hagen Engelmann on November 28, 2008, 06:58:40 PM
Martin, I have sent Chris lists of names ;D. And I`m more than curiously to listen about your results. I found you only in silence. My very interest is in swapping bulbs with you. But how?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Hagen Engelmann on November 28, 2008, 07:00:51 PM
Martin, where do you have the time for polishing??? I thought you have to drawing and gardening the drops?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Martin Baxendale on November 28, 2008, 07:33:56 PM
Hi Hagen. Sorry I forgot to get back to you about your offer of a swap in return for my mother's colchicum. Unfortunately I don't have much room in my small garden for big colchicums, especially as I need so much room for the snowdrops. Was the Colchicum 'Huxley' what you hoped for or not as dark as you expected?

Swapping my new snowdrops is not something I can really do yet because when I raise a new seedling that is good, I only have the one bulb, which must be chipped and grown on and chipped again before I have enough to swap or give away. Hopefully in another year or two I will start to have enough quantities of some of my best new snowdrops to begin distributing some. And before I do that, I will also have to think about names. It's a lot easier for someone who finds a nice big clump of a 'new' snowdrop in a garden because straight away they have enough to give away.   :( 
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Paddy Tobin on November 28, 2008, 08:11:49 PM
Martin,

You should be cloned! At least your attitude to the naming of snowdrops should certainly be widely copied. Such reticence in naming will assure your, in time, named snowdrops a warm welcome when released to other enthusiasts. At least we will know that something worthwhile is available.

I have been reading snowdrop sales lists over the last week, checking up on them in the snowdrop book or some of the internet sites. You know, I can pass up on most of them without a second thought. There are simply so many which are not particularly individual at all.

So, keep up the breeding and chipping programme and we can look  forward to nice snowdrops at some stage.

Paddy
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Gerard Oud on November 29, 2008, 08:00:21 AM
Sorry to be a bit late for a reply but i had problems with the computer.
For the twinscaling i use perlite it is much better than the sticky vermiculite. It breaths much better and its cleaner.

About Flocon de neige, i maybe do have some for sale next year but these are twinscale's. I want to see first how they grow and if they remain healthy, because it is hard one to grow.
Even when you are able to get some you have to swap a lot of money or a bunch of other value snowdrops for it. So i thought 150 euro would be a fair price but the price in my cataloge is just a price indication, we can always swap for other nice one's!

About price's, my neighbour is growing very rare and valuable peonie's like Old Faithe (a very nice big red double). He is asking for one 150 euro what is a lot of money we say. But when you have it in your garden you will have the pleasure of this fantastic peonie, and after 3 years of enjoyment you even might have about 3 to 4 plants that you can sell easily for that price. That is pleasure and 500% credit!

About the Maximus we are growing here this cultivar for age's, it is a bit earlier then the normal nivalis and it reache's up to 35 cm, even the bulbs grow easily to size 6 or bigger and i believe its registrated at the kAVB.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: KentGardener on November 30, 2008, 03:21:17 AM
Thanks for a really interesting thread everyone - I can't believe how it has suddenly appeared in the last few days.  Very interesting reading.

I agree with Brain that some of the prices are far too high.  I thought £50 was about the limit that could be justified for a very rare one.

I hope I get round to trying some twin scalling myself next year.

regards

John
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: steve owen on December 05, 2008, 04:54:05 PM
Annew mentioned earlier in the thread that margarine tubs could be used instead of polythene bags for twin-scaling. Is it important to seal the lids with tape for air-tightness?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Martin Baxendale on December 05, 2008, 05:36:46 PM
Annew mentioned earlier in the thread that margarine tubs could be used instead of polythene bags for twin-scaling. Is it important to seal the lids with tape for air-tightness?

No, just closing the lid will do. No need to be airtight. In fact I think it's better if not completely airtight, so the chips can 'breathe' a little. All that's needed is for the vermiculite not to dry out too much. I meant to ask Anne if she had no problems at all with rot in the margarine tubs. I believe the plastic bags allow some minor transfer of air through them if not too thick, which helps keep the air inside less stale than a thick container. If using marge tubs I think I'd be very careful to not over-moisten the vermiculite. I tend to open my bags from time to time to give the vermicultite a gentle shake, checking on the chips and aerating them at the same time. I think this helps prevent rots.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on December 05, 2008, 06:05:49 PM
I use bags and open them every week when I am checking over the chips/scales so that would introduce fresh air.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: KentGardener on December 05, 2008, 06:34:11 PM
I have been saving the plastic boxes (with lids) that Chinese take away arrives in - they always seem far too good to chuck away and I have been trying to think of a use for them.

If I get round to chipping in 2009 I shall see how they fare.

Regards

John
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: annew on December 08, 2008, 04:22:02 PM
Just caught up - in reply to Martin, I get very little rot in the chipping tubs, but the vermiculite is only just moist. The odd taxon will fail, but I think it probably would have anyway. Every few weeks I check through and give the tubs a good shake, which fluffs up the substrate again. It will be noted that some condensation forms on the lid, but this is not in contact with either the substrate or chips, so in fact it probably helps to avoid too much moisture on the chips themselves.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropman on December 09, 2008, 02:25:15 PM
I wonder if the abberant inner occurred genetically in the original seedling/clump or is the result of rapid twin scaling?
It does not seem to be the result of twin scaling as the 'Snowdrops' book records "The whorl of inner segments is not quite as regular due to competition for space, and occasionally there can be two or three partly petaloid anthers"
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Gerard Oud on December 10, 2008, 11:37:29 AM
One of these Flocon's is for a forummember, guess who!
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Anthony Darby on December 10, 2008, 11:50:42 AM
My goodness, they look really healthy. :)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: mark smyth on December 11, 2008, 04:15:58 PM
Here is another shot of 'Floccon'
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: David Quinton on December 11, 2008, 07:31:15 PM
Crumbs - definitely need a sanity clause.

Anthony, didn't you know, 'sanity clause'  doesn't exist ::)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: David Nicholson on December 11, 2008, 07:41:04 PM
 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: KentGardener on December 12, 2008, 09:43:52 AM
Anthony, didn't you know, 'sanity clause'  doesn't exist ::)

Brilliant!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Anthony Darby on December 12, 2008, 05:01:54 PM
Brilliant. 10 Marx out of 10 ;D Definitely my favourite Marx Brothers film. :)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: David Quinton on December 12, 2008, 10:41:21 PM
Brilliant. 10 Marx out of 10 ;D Definitely my favourite Marx Brothers film. :)

I'm more of a Laurel and Hardy fan myself but a friend of mine is crazy about the Marx Brothers. The sanity clause sketch or contract sketch has stuck with me for years as it was/is so funny. Thanks for reminding me of it.

I prefer to spend my time watching Stan and Ollie. It is great to sit down with my 3 year old son and laugh at the two of them messing about. They don't make them like that any more. I was fortunate enough to visit their last resting place earlier this year along with the location of the Music Box steps in a pilgrimage to Los Angeles. What a privilege.

Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: David Quinton on December 12, 2008, 11:46:50 PM
'Fresh fish' and 'the piano', not to mention 'the trail of the lonesome pine' (wonder if they saw any pink trilliums?), oh, and mustn't forget the jigsaw puzzle. ;D

Towed in the Hole, The Music Box (won an Oscar for this and I have been up the steps used in the film), Way Out West and lastly Me and My Pal.

I guess that we should get back on topic.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Lvandelft on December 13, 2008, 12:25:27 PM
I read somewhere else on the Forum :
Quote
Had an email from a Scottish friend today saying they at long last found a brain in England but it was 2,000 years old.  I was puzzled until I saw the news tonight. 

johnw
[/color]

After googling a bit, I found out that Yorkshiremen found their brains ... at last  ::) ::) ;D
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: David Nicholson on December 13, 2008, 12:29:28 PM
Oooooooooo, that hurt! ;D
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Gerdk on December 13, 2008, 01:27:16 PM
Dear friends,
I can't resist to ask: How was it possible to start with a chipping/twin-scaling question and end with Laurel & Hardy and an ancient brain? ??? ??? ???

There was a speach from my father: some guys start to talk about Kappes (cabbage) and finish with Klavier (piano)!

Gerd
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on December 13, 2008, 02:33:46 PM
We call it Chinese Whispers Gerd, where you start by whispering a message to one person who then passes it on, and so on until it finally comes back as something quite different ::)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: David Nicholson on December 13, 2008, 07:10:42 PM
Just like the old one-'send reinforcements we're going to advance' reached the other end of the line as 'send three and four pence we're going to a dance'   (three and four pence being part of pre-decimalised currency in the UK)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Anthony Darby on December 14, 2008, 09:53:47 PM
Oh a brain! I thought you were talking about an ancient Brian! ::)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on December 14, 2008, 10:34:00 PM
Steady on Anthony, not quite so ancient! :'(
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Hans A. on January 22, 2010, 11:57:18 AM
Even if it is not exactly chipping I could not find a better place to post this.
I was suprised about a snowdrop a friend sent to me in the green but thanks to the post received yellowish brown last year. The conditions it arrived were really bad and also the bulb looked not very happy. I treated it with some fungicid but thought it would not be able to recuperate.
Checking it yesterday it seems it had lost the main shot but prduced various new shots of different size.
Now I wonder if removing the main shot would be a viable for multipling snowdrops - it should produce  fewer new bulbs but of larger size than using twin - scaling ::)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: loes on January 22, 2010, 05:56:24 PM
There is  galanthus White Cloud which makes many little bulbs and still blooms,no need to remove the flower.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Gerard Oud on January 22, 2010, 06:56:21 PM
Like i always say Hans, Nothing beats Snowdrops!!!
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on January 28, 2013, 03:03:23 PM
   There was a question about info on chipping and growing on chips so I've gathered th some stufff  from the Bulb Log and elsewhere in the forum: 

http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2004/240804/log.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2004/240804/log.html)

[attachimg=1]
Bulb chipping 1year on

Previously on the log I have shown the technique of chipping Narcissus bulbs and here is an updated picture showing, on the left, how they are after one year's growth. The remains of the old scales have dried out and should now be removed from the young bulbs. On the right, above, are last year's newly cut up scales and, below them, are the same cuttings six weeks on, showing the tiny bulbs forming.


[attachimg=2]


http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/270603/log.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/270603/log.html)

http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/210803/log.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/210803/log.html)

You can see that the latent buds between the leaf scales have already started to form small bulbs. At this stage I like to especially check out the ones that are not forming a bulb and if they are showing any signs of rotting I remove them. It is very unusual for the ones forming bulbs to rot away. I also assess the moisture level of the vermiculite and if I think it necessary I add a tiny drop or two of water, better too little than too much.



Brian Ellis reply to :
Quote from: Martin Baxendale on October 31, 2010, 08:29:19 PM
Quote from: annew on October 31, 2010, 07:37:07 PM
So glad to hear you are still potting up chips, Martin. I just did the last of mine and was worried I was too late. What is your experience of success rates this late? I have to confess that I chipped too late this year so the bulbils aren't as big as I would like.


I think it's okay to chip any time the bulb is dormant, right up till rooting starts. I once chipped some bulbs in October as an experiment, and by February they'd caught up with those chipped in June/July.


...and I am just about to pot up this years chips, which were done rather late and are now ready to take out of their bags.  Last years are beginning to poke their noses through in their pots, so I feel as though I really am late



Martin Baxendale reply to :
Quote from: steve owen on February 08, 2009, 12:57:27 PM
Should one lay the scales + bulbils on the surface when potting or cover them? If cover, how deep and with what medium?


They should be covered, so the tops of the chips are just below the surface of the (well-drained) compost, and then a layer of grit (not too deep and not to coarse).

Martin Baxendale :
....... I think I could just about get away with annual repotting in fresh good quality loam-based compost (John Innes 2 or 3 depending on bulb size, chosen for a good loam content, plus extra drainage material - pumice grit in my case) and Maxicrop non-fertiliser original (brown bottle) seaweed extract. But for fastest development of seedlings and chips to flowering I think some added fertiliser on top of what's in the compost would probably be beneficial. I think I'll stick to very regular doses of the non-fertiliser-boosted Maxicrop seaweed extract (at virtually every watering) and add a dose of a high-potash liquid feed (e.g. tomato fertiliser) every other watering or so. Some of my seedlings are taking a long time to reach flowering and anything I can do to speed that up has to be a good thing.

http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=7719.msg212930#msg212930 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=7719.msg212930#msg212930)

A few questions:

Is it essential to regularly open the bag containing chipped Galanthus to allow for air exchange. This has been recommended on several sites yet my understanding is that polythene allows gas but not moisture exchange?

Do folks grow 'Augustus' near their collection of other snowdrops?  As it has potyvirus I am amazed it is so incredibly vigorous.  Secondly the book says Ronald Mackenzie has a virus-free 'Augustus'. Has anyone seen it and exactly how does one produce a virus-free bulb other than selfing and growing it from seed again? In which case the name 'Augustus' should not apply.   

My experiment to dry out pots of Galanthus by sowing annual rye seed in the pots as the leaves were dying down has worked rather well.  The rye was not so vigorous as to dry the medium out too quickly, in fact a few pots were still moist halfway down despite not having been watered since June.  The roots nicey dried the tunics and especially those tight spots between offset and mother.  Survival in  general improved.  The only casualty was lagodechianus of which we had several hundred bulbs; somehow the pots were misplaced and we missed watering them until January - they did not approve. Still we have a dozen survivors and they reproduce like mad; if only they'd flower.
johnw

I don't know that it is essential John, but I open my bags once a week to allow air in and for me to check on their status.  It means any that are not looking good can be removed before they infect others.
Brian Ellis

apparently I didn`t read the articles about chipping very good as I don`t recall reading to let fresh air in the bag.But I will do so and look at the chips carefully.This is my first attempt with just one chipped bulb,only 12 parts in the bag.but so far so good,no wilt or other bad signs.and after 6 weeks not yet a bulbil to see.

now my question:when do I pot the chips?I mean,should I put them in the soil after 3 months even if there are no bulbils or do I wait till they have bulbils,even when it is already winter?
any advice please?
loes

I don't open my bags of chips and find they do fine without refreshing the air in the bag on a regular basis. In fact, I would imagine that opening the bags regularly makes it more likely that airborne fungi spores may get in. I check the bags by simply shaking the vermiculite gently around to expose the chips to sight (flattening the bags on a table helps too) so I can see if there are rot problems - which is usually pretty obvious without opening the bag.

Loes, I pot chips after 3 or 4 months even if there is no sign of bulbil formation. Bulbils can still continue to develop after potting, along with root formation which will help to keep the chip hydrated and firm even if there is no leaf growth. It's not uncommon for chips to fail to make bulbs and leaves the first season, but when you come to check on them after the end of the first growing season you'll often find that small bulbils will have formed. If not, then repot the scales again. As long as they are firm and healthy, there's a good chance that they'll make bulbils eventually.

John, I have Augustus from Ron Mackenzie and although it shows no signs of virus at the start of the season, it does later on. The theory was that some Augustus in some gardens may have been isolated before Augustus was infected with virus. But since the vast majority have virus, I suspect it got infected very early on, before it was widely distributed, and perhaps before it was distributed at all, so ALL stock may be virused. It never sets seed for me, so I think it's probably a virtually sterile triploid, which would explain its vigour despite virus infection. Often if a snowdrop is well grown the virus symptoms are not obvious, but show up when the bulb is stressed.
Martin Baxendale


www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=779.msg19753#msg19753 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=779.msg19753#msg19753)
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2007, 12:26:56 AM »
Spent all evening potting up snowdrop chips. Here are some pics to show that it can be successful.

The size of the bulbils you get after a few months in the bags of vermiculite can vary quite a lot depending on the size of adult bulb that the snowdrop makes and the vigour of the individual snowdrop.

For example, the first two pics are chips from seedlings involving Gal. 'Mighty Atom' both of which are very strong, large-flowered  plants, reluctant to set seed, so probably triploids with plicatus blood, making large bulbs. The third pic is of some chips from Gal. reginae-olgae, a less vigorous snowdrop with naturally small bulbs, so making smaller bulbils when chipped. But all will make good leaf growth after potting. I just try to pot the smaller bulbils closer packed in smaller pots and the bigger ones a little more spaced in larger pots as they'll develop faster and make larger bulbs more quickly.   (plus pix)
Martin Baxendale

There was also some comment about the digressions in this thread so I have "tidied" it up a little!
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: kentish_lass on January 28, 2013, 03:24:09 PM
Wow - thanks Maggi.  Can't wait to read this later tonight.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: bulborum on January 28, 2013, 07:36:00 PM
Thanks Maggie

Fantastic job

Roland
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Leena on January 29, 2013, 06:57:35 AM
Thank you Maggi  :)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: steve owen on January 29, 2013, 05:03:40 PM
It was really good to see David Q's smile again in the post sequence.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on January 29, 2013, 05:16:10 PM
It was really good to see David Q's smile again in the post sequence.

Wasn't it just!  We shall miss bumping into him at all the events this year, but I believe he won't be forgotten by a long chalk.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on January 29, 2013, 05:26:54 PM
 :( It was David who kindly offered to give me a demonstration in exchange for a cuppa and a few drops, a year later did nearly 400 chips and all but a few took, had a real passion for his plants.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: kentish_lass on January 29, 2013, 11:07:19 PM
I have a question regarding potting up the chips.  Do you invert the chips in the pot with the basal side downwards or lay them sideways on the soil?  Does anyone have a photo of the potting up process?

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread - thanks Maggi.  I will continue to search and read as much as I can on the topic.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on January 29, 2013, 11:16:36 PM
In the picture of the three different stages in my compilation post  http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=2042.msg265368#msg265368 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=2042.msg265368#msg265368) - the one of the chips after about six weeks (this can take a little longer at times) - you can see that not only are the new little bulbs visible, but the new roots are beginning to show as well - so be guided by the direction they are coming from to orientate the chip when planting it.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on January 30, 2013, 05:24:54 PM
Jennie, I do get a few where it can be tricky to tell right side up f they haven't developed but on their side doesn't seem to do them any harm.

my usual routine is dig the bulbs for chipping up in March and pot into a very sandy mix, just helps keep the bulbs clean.

bulbs are chipped mid June then go into storage in a dark room temp cupboard til October, I check mine every week for the first month then every few after.

chips are potted mid October, am sure is possible to to do this earlier which I'll probably experiment with this year, they go onto a covered & slightly heated bench. I never let my pots dry up but just kept lightly watered until growth appears then i started feeding.

these are last years Mighty Atoms.

realize its a long way but if you wanted to come up when I do mine this year you're welcome to have a look, I'm no expert  ;) and I do lose some but my method seems fairly successful.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: kentish_lass on January 31, 2013, 01:19:06 AM
Thanks Richard - I would love to watch you chipping and am very interested to see how you grow them on.  You are certainly having a high success rate.  Its weird as I am very confident when splitting/propagating any shrub or perennial.....but when it comes to bulbs I have such a lot to learn.  I am starting to think I pamper them too much  ;)

Will mark June on my calender - thanks again.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: bulborum on January 31, 2013, 01:31:46 AM
Richard

For example if you use a razorblades for making the chippings
how do you prevent for the virus infections

Roland
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on January 31, 2013, 06:13:32 AM
I buy a box of scalpel blades and use a new blade for each bulb, change latex gloves each bulb, chopping surface is wiped clean after each one is done.

Probably a bit excessive but its as much about keeping everything sterile as well the risk of virus, my first attempt before I was shown how to do it properly ended up with several bags of mouldy bits so everything is cleaned then wiped with meths again, of last years 350+ chips only 1 was removed from a pot because it looked like it might be going mouldy.

Jennie I was the same & think nothing of division etc which is far more brutal, it's different when you're faced with chopping up 30+ treasured bulbs, after the first month and the chips hadn't turned to mush I start relaxing ;)

It's a fairly easy process if you keep everything clean.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on January 31, 2013, 09:59:08 AM
Probably a bit excessive but its as much about keeping everything sterile as well the risk of virus...
It's a fairly easy process if you keep everything clean.

Absolutely, I would add that I don't think it is excessive and you should probably use fresh fungicide for each bulb too.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on January 31, 2013, 10:20:14 AM
Brian, each bulb goes into it's own small cup of fungicide, looking back it was obvious why my first non tutored attempt turned to mush, doing it properly requires a lot of time and equipment but the results are worth it. I was told off last year for turning my whole kitchen into a lab  ;D
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on January 31, 2013, 10:49:09 AM
I was told off last year for turning my whole kitchen into a lab  ;D
I know the feeling ;D
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Anthonyh on January 31, 2013, 02:51:08 PM
I also use a separate blade for each bulb, with the exception of when I'm doing common varieties (Arnott/Atkinsi etc) for bulk planting. Then I use the ceramic cooker hob in the kitchen to sterilize the blade- it's easy and fast to heat up, and I'm working on the assumption that a few seconds on that should kill any viruses that are likely to be a problem... and the blades don't seem to lose their temper... so to speak... despite changing colour. I haven't seen any signs of trouble in the bulbs I've done that way over the past few years. I find that a little easier and cleaner than using a flame. Our kitchen also looks like a lab for a day or two, but it's definitely worth taking the time to do it properly. 

Below should be a picture of some of mine... done at different times.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Anthonyh on January 31, 2013, 02:57:10 PM
Incidentally, has anyone had much experience of twin scaling woronowii? I ask because I haven't, and I read on John Grimshaw's blog last year (in relation to a certain yellow) that it doesn't respond well to the procedure. I have an unusual one, of which I'll post some pictures elsewhere shortly, and whilst I intend to try some common woronowii this year to see what happens, I wondered if anyone else had tried it?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on January 31, 2013, 06:53:53 PM
What do others do with their chips once they have grown for one season?

Keeping them in pots doesn't really work for me so far & I've prepared well dug beds to put them in late March/early April, would like to keep a small number in pots as a trial and I'm interested to know where/how you store them, in cold frames, plunged in sand, potting mixes, watering regimes etc.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: ChrisD on January 31, 2013, 10:12:19 PM
Incidentally, has anyone had much experience of twin scaling woronowii? I ask because I haven't, and I read on John Grimshaw's blog last year (in relation to a certain yellow) that it doesn't respond well to the procedure. I have an unusual one, of which I'll post some pictures elsewhere shortly, and whilst I intend to try some common woronowii this year to see what happens, I wondered if anyone else had tried it?

On an even more general note I would be really interested to know which varieties people have had good results with and which ones havent worked. (one of the very nice aspects of this forum is that people dont seem to be at all reticent about admitting they have failed with things - very refreshing).

Chris
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: John Breen on January 31, 2013, 11:59:38 PM
Thanks for this most useful thread, and to Maggi for the compilation of the earlier posts.
I've not tried chipping yet but hope to try it this year.
My question is which fungicide is used? Usually the instructions (judyssnowdrops, the bible) just say "systemic fungicide". It would help to know which ones have been successful.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on February 01, 2013, 07:14:19 AM
John,

I'm using bayer systhane fungus fighter, don't have the original notes I was given but think the active ingredient - Myclobutanil is what matters, am sure someone will confirm but the bayer product works well.

http://www.bayergarden.co.uk/en/data/Products/s/Systhane-Fungus-Fighter.aspx (http://www.bayergarden.co.uk/en/data/Products/s/Systhane-Fungus-Fighter.aspx)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Alan_b on February 01, 2013, 07:57:54 AM
My question is which fungicide is used?

I have been to talks on twin-scaling where at this juncture it emerges that the speaker uses a fungicide that has been withdrawn from sale and/or is only available to agriculturalists.  So well-done Richard for nominating something you actually can get hold of.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: bulborum on February 01, 2013, 09:21:41 AM
I use Captan for soaking my bulbs
sometimes mixed wit one or two other
depends on thee bulbs

Roland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captan)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Paddy Tobin on February 01, 2013, 09:33:02 AM
Has anybody had the experience that bulbs produced through chipping/twin-scaling have afterwards been very slow to multiply in the garden, oftentimes remaining as a single bulb for many years?

Paddy
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on February 01, 2013, 10:15:15 AM
I have been to talks on twin-scaling where at this juncture it emerges that the speaker uses a fungicide that has been withdrawn from sale and/or is only available to agriculturalists.  So well-done Richard for nominating something you actually can get hold of.

working on a farming estate I do have access to agri chemicals but I've learned over the years as soon as I find something that does exactly what I want it do it almost inevitably gets withdrawn  :-\ is very frustrating.

other than a stronger roundup for paths etc virtually everything I use now is off the shelf for that reason.

Quote
Has anybody had the experience that bulbs produced through chipping/twin-scaling have afterwards been very slow to multiply in the garden, oftentimes remaining as a single bulb for many years?

not really done enough to have encountered that, but I'm only chipping vigorous varieties, what I am concerned about is chipping the offspring of chipped bulbs & whether that might lead to weakness. I wonder if this might be why new varieties I've tried in the last couple of years that seem to have appeared quickly in some quantity either don't survive or just sulk despite being giving the best possible care/conditions.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Alan_b on February 01, 2013, 12:59:00 PM
Has anybody had the experience that bulbs produced through chipping/twin-scaling have afterwards been very slow to multiply

One bulb in my garden, flowering for the first time since 2004, springs to mind  It's still just a small single bulb but it was collected from the wild and if it resulted from chipping then this was done by nature rather than the hand of man.  I think that some bulbs just fail to thrive; presumably because they don't really like the conditions where they have been planted.

I also agree with Richard that new varieties are often bulked-up quickly by twin scaling without much test of garden-worthiness.   
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Paddy Tobin on February 01, 2013, 01:04:23 PM
Alan,

I had a comparison of like-with-like when I posed the question above - a chipped bulb planted in the same conditions as the original bulbs not thriving at all while the original one have gone on to big numbers.

It is to be presumed nowadays that most bulbs of the more scarce varieties have been propagated by chipping or twin-scaling. Some will languish as single bulbs for years while others will take off.

Paddy
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: John Breen on February 01, 2013, 01:08:48 PM
Richard
Thank you for sharing this information on the Bayer systhane fungus fighter. I think the pictures of your on-growing potted up chips convince me that it “works”.
Alan
I have also experience the situation that you describe … the speaker recommends withdrawn products or products not generally available. So thanks Richard.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Alan_b on February 01, 2013, 04:55:38 PM
I had a comparison of like-with-like when I posed the question above - a chipped bulb planted in the same conditions as the original bulbs not thriving at all while the original one have gone on to big numbers.

In 2004 I collected three single snowdrops bulbs from the 'wild' and planted them in a row about 20 cm apart.  The first and last in the row bulked up normally but the middle one (which to the best of my knowledge was exactly the same clone as the first) remained as a single bulb for several years.  So I gave it to Richard Ayres and I'm told it has never looked back since, bulking up normally.  I can only conclude that either I'm just a bad gardener and/or conditions can vary over very short distances.   
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on February 02, 2013, 06:34:39 PM
John,

Picked up some more from my local Van how much, sorry Hage  ::) today if you have trouble finding somewhere that stocks it.

 
Richard
Thank you for sharing this information on the Bayer systhane fungus fighter. I think the pictures of your on-growing potted up chips convince me that it “works”.
Alan
I have also experience the situation that you describe … the speaker recommends withdrawn products or products not generally available. So thanks Richard.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Uwe on April 20, 2013, 10:05:44 PM
I have in last summer ( august 2012) repeatedly cut with a knife, a medium size galanthus bulb ( Trympostor). I then potted this and now i have them planted in the ground.
It has become eight small bulbs, without chemicals and hormones.
I'm happy!
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Martin Baxendale on April 21, 2013, 12:44:22 AM
I have in last summer ( august 2012) repeatedly cut with a knife, a medium size galanthus bulb ( Trympostor). I then potted this and now i have them planted in the ground.
It has become eight small bulbs, without chemicals and hormones.
I'm happy!

Did you cut across and through the basal plate, like slicing a cake?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Alan_b on April 21, 2013, 07:56:19 AM
Did you have a 'control' bulb, Uwe?  'Tryposter' is supposed to bulk-up very rapidly by itself so did the cutting actually accelerate the rate of increase?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Uwe on April 21, 2013, 12:45:45 PM
@ Martin:
I have cut acroos the basal plate, not trough . And like slicing a cake.



@ Alan:
I took the bulb from a bulk Trympostor, which I bought last year at Avon Bulbs . This bulk had last year 5 bulbs . This year there are about 7 bulbs.
I will continue to try this year. Maybe it was a fluke.

Best wishes
Uwe
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: loes on April 22, 2013, 08:06:44 PM
About Trympostor:
Last year I bought 1 bulb of Trympostor and now after one season there are 20 bulbs!  ;D
I just potted it in a mesh pot and in the garden.I didnt cut or do anything special.
The very best doer in my garden!
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on April 22, 2013, 08:19:37 PM
About Trympostor:
Last year I bought 1 bulb of Trympostor and now after one season there are 20 bulbs!  ;D
I just potted it in a mesh pot and in the garden.I didnt cut or do anything special.
The very best doer in my garden!

My goodness! That is a HUGE increase! You would be pleased if they all did that, eh?!
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: emma T on May 14, 2013, 04:27:57 PM
What fungicide are people using for twin scaling these days ?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Alan_b on May 15, 2013, 05:17:42 PM
Everyone I know who does twin-scaling is either a horticultural professional with access to 'dangerous' fungicides or knows a horticultural professional and has got hold of such fungicides by this means.  AFAIK there is nothing of any great use available to amateurs via Garden Centres.

My amateur fungicides are:
I have no idea how effective (if at all) either of these are.



 
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: emma T on May 16, 2013, 09:29:16 AM
Well being a professional i can get hold of the dangerous fungicides , just thought id ask . Maybe i will do a comparison between garden centre bought and the nasty stuff !
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Alan_b on May 16, 2013, 12:33:17 PM
I would be very pleased if you did that comparison, Emma.

I did not mention the Systhane fungicide(s) you can buy at garden centres because
 
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: JanB on May 21, 2013, 08:39:47 PM
I'm definitely not in the professional camp so only have access to the garden centre strength fungicides. I've had brilliant success so far with 'FungusClear Ultra' 'for flowering plants'.

Fungus Clear Ultra for Flowering Plants 225 ml Systemic Fungicide Liquid Concentrate

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fungus-Flowering-Systemic-Fungicide-Concentrate/dp/B0017RMKGM#productDescription (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fungus-Flowering-Systemic-Fungicide-Concentrate/dp/B0017RMKGM#productDescription)

Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Alan_b on May 23, 2013, 06:29:12 AM
Just to be clear, Jan, do you mean brilliant success when twin-scaling or brilliant success as a general purpose fungicide?  Or success in treating botrytis and/or stagonsospora in mature snowdrops, for that matter. 
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: JanB on May 23, 2013, 04:57:11 PM
Sorry, Alan, brilliant success when used for twin scaling. Not had any problems with fungus/ rotting or anything else.

I do tend to leave the scales in the solution for some time whilst I chop the next few bulbs, so might be doing them in batches of 10 or so, then start to drain them in the order that I chopped, and bag them in the vermiculite at the same time. As I'm only doing it for myself, not in great numbers, I collect the bulbs and put into shot glasses ( the kids drinking habits have to be of some benefit  ;D) with a label. Then I clean the bulb and shot glass put in the antifungal and go on to chopping. Hope this clarifies it :)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: mark smyth on February 21, 2014, 03:18:02 PM
I'm planning to twinscale this year. My list contains 68  :o
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on February 21, 2014, 03:25:02 PM
Will you have room enough to grow them all on Mark?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: mark smyth on February 21, 2014, 06:19:46 PM
Of course ... not. Do you mean to grow on?

Its mainly plants I have low numbers of. I have two small areas in the back garden that can be converted to sand plunges. One is 12 feet x 2 feet / 3.5 x .6m. The other area could be a new semi shade bed for what ever or put to some other use

The plan isn't to twinscale but to chop the bulbs in to 8 or 16
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on February 21, 2014, 07:17:05 PM
Well I just thought if you were producing something like 600 bulbs... but I see you have good plans to grow them on  ;)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: mark smyth on February 21, 2014, 07:27:41 PM
never thought of having so many chips
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on February 21, 2014, 08:29:13 PM
68 x 8 =544
68 x 16 = 1088
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: loes on February 21, 2014, 09:28:55 PM
never thought of having so many chips

You could sell them to Lay's  ;)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: mark smyth on February 21, 2014, 10:37:09 PM
68 x 8 =544
68 x 16 = 1088

 :o when will I have the time - post op maybe when I'm not allowed to drive for 6 to 8 weeks

Who are Lays?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: mark smyth on February 21, 2014, 10:37:58 PM
I could sell them on Ebay LOL
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: loes on February 21, 2014, 11:19:37 PM
:o when will I have the time - post op maybe when I'm not allowed to drive for 6 to 8 weeks

Who are Lays?

A brand of potato crisps,in Holland we call them chips  :P
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Chris Johnson on February 22, 2014, 08:03:39 AM
A brand of potato crisps,in Holland we call them chips  :P

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: mark smyth on February 22, 2014, 05:47:17 PM
Tayto crisps here - the best cheese and onion ever. Anytime we visit family out of Ireland we have to take tayto crisps, soda bread and potato bread
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: loes on February 22, 2014, 06:09:37 PM
Cheese and onion is my favourit!
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: mark smyth on February 22, 2014, 06:10:46 PM
Do you want to try a bag of Tayto cheese and onion?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: loes on February 22, 2014, 07:05:52 PM
Swapping crisps?  :-\

I'd rather swap snowdrops
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: mark smyth on February 26, 2014, 11:18:16 AM
When do you start chipping/twinning? When leaves are yellow or when completely dormant?

Does everyone follow the same recipe by using vermiculite 10 parts to 1 of water?

Plastic bags or Chinese takeaway boxes? Where do you buy your boxes?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Hitu on February 26, 2014, 12:12:17 PM
I have few questions of chipping.
What is the right season for that?
What is the best or recommended fungicide?
Are there other sorts you can add by chipping besides snowdrops and narcissus?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Chris Johnson on February 26, 2014, 12:47:35 PM
When do you start chipping/twinning? When leaves are yellow or when completely dormant?

Does everyone follow the same recipe by using vermiculite 10 parts to 1 of water?

Plastic bags or Chinese takeaway boxes? Where do you buy your boxes?

Ron Leeds has a section on scaling and chipping in his book 'Bulbs in Containers'. His ratio is 250 ml of vermiculite 20 ml of deionized water (12.5 to 1). He also uses a fungicide.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on February 26, 2014, 01:13:49 PM
When do you start chipping/twinning? When leaves are yellow or when completely dormant?

Does everyone follow the same recipe by using vermiculite 10 parts to 1 of water?

Plastic bags or Chinese takeaway boxes? Where do you buy your boxes?

I chip mid/late June once the bulbs are completely dormant with no leaves.

Yes 10:1, I follow the method I was shown by David Quinton many years ago, think that came via Brain Ellis but not sure who it originates from. I make up a large batch then keep it covered while chopping up.

I use small stackable boxes, Lakeland 0.5 litre but takeaway boxes are just as good and a lot cheaper, not keen on bags.

Bayer Systhane Fungicide Fighter works fine for me, is available from many garden centers or Amazon. Gardener at Angelsey Abbey said they use no chemicals but I've not tried it yet and probably won't  ;)

Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on February 26, 2014, 02:42:51 PM
Any commercially available fungicide for things like tomatoes seems to be fine.  The method I gave David Q originated with Richard Hobbs who gave us a practical demonstration.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Matt T on February 26, 2014, 03:02:49 PM
At Dunblane, Anne told us that when she puts the chips/twinscales into the vermiculite (in boxes - used, washed margarine tubs) she likes to ensure that they are spaced out so that they are not touching - otherwise rot is sure to set in.

Keep them warm and dark for a few (6?) weeks then pot them up.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on February 26, 2014, 03:18:34 PM
Thanks Brian.

spacing them out is why I use boxes rather than bags. Mine stay in a dark room temp cupboard from end June until early October, by then a root & shoot should have formed, they then go into 9cm square pots, 4 per pot. Might try using a small prop case in the cupboard this year to keep the temp stable.

I've tried various compost mixes, sitting some on a thin layer of sharp sand when potting, and various feeds and now use a mix of equal parts J Innes No3, sharp sand and medium grade vermiculite. They stay in pots for 2 years then go into a nursery bed, feed with miracle grow every few weeks. Some of my 2012 Mighty Atom chips flowered this year, but generally takes another year.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Hitu on February 27, 2014, 01:25:28 AM
One more stupid question...do you put them out after potting?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on February 27, 2014, 07:06:15 AM
They stay in a heated greenhouse from potting in October until following spring, kept lightly watered until growth appears. Then into shaded cold frames for the summer.

pic shows typical growth rate, 2012 chips on left, 2013 on right.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: emma T on February 27, 2014, 11:06:55 AM
Has anyone had a go at  micro proping them yourself at home ? 
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: David Nelson on February 27, 2014, 12:17:46 PM
Hi Emma,
I'm a new member to the Forum, but I do have some experience of micropropagation, working with Narcissus a few years ago. It's very difficult to remove all the soil micro organisms that come with soil grown bulbs when setting up the bulb cultures initially, it's a minefield in itself! Then there are ongoing issues with keeping sterile cultures actually sterile! So, what I'm trying to say is 'No, it's just about impossible to do, outside of a lab.' Sorry!!
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on February 27, 2014, 12:50:59 PM
Welcome David!  Thanks for your input about your experience.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Diane Clement on February 27, 2014, 12:57:44 PM
Has anyone had a go at  micro proping them yourself at home ? 

Emma, did you have any success with your experiment taking leaf cuttings last year?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: emma T on February 27, 2014, 01:06:12 PM
No , no luck . I think I might need a mist unit to try again
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: emma T on February 27, 2014, 01:06:57 PM

Hi Emma,
I'm a new member to the Forum, but I do have some experience of micropropagation, working with Narcissus a few years ago. It's very difficult to remove all the soil micro organisms that come with soil grown bulbs when setting up the bulb cultures initially, it's a minefield in itself! Then there are ongoing issues with keeping sterile cultures actually sterile! So, what I'm trying to say is 'No, it's just about impossible to do, outside of a lab.' Sorry!!

Mmmm just about impossible , sounds like a challenge !
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: mark smyth on February 27, 2014, 04:52:48 PM
Leaf cuttings? I don't remember this coming up
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on February 28, 2014, 09:26:49 AM
having to pot everything this year, nursery beds are like clay soup  :-\

these are 2012 Mighty Atom chips, from something smaller than a grain of rice to 10mm bulbs in 18 months. Shame they aren't all so vigorous.

Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Alan_b on March 04, 2014, 07:19:17 AM
micropropagation .... it's just about impossible to do, outside of a lab.' Sorry!!

I'm curious to know what you think we are missing, David.  It's amazing what you can improvise, particularly so if you're used to not having to do so.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: David Nelson on March 06, 2014, 09:42:59 PM
Hi Alan,
It's a bit of a long winded story, so please bear with me! Micropropagation requires a mineral salts solution, sucrose, agar and the use of an autoclave, to prepare & sterile the growth media. The surface sterilisation of the bulbs to be propagated was done by a gentle hot water & bleach treatment. From that point on, all work was carried out in a Laminar Flow Bench, which is designed to protect the tissues by blowing sterile, filtered air across them & so protect them from further contamination. The cultures are grown under Controlled Environment facilities, to provide them with stable day length, light intensity & temperature. The tiny bulbils were induced to enlarge essentially by giving them additional sucrose & were then potted on. Reaction to micropropagation was strongly cultivar dependant, some showing strong apical dominance & hence few bulbils!
I guess we could discuss substitutes & alternatives & see what we can come up with...I enjoyed the work & found it very rewarding!
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Joan on November 10, 2014, 02:06:27 PM
I have been asked what is the best fungicide to use when chipping/twinscaling.  I use Fungus Clear Ultra (because it was the first one to hand in the garden centre).  Any comments or suggestions from the more experienced plants people?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on January 05, 2015, 11:30:38 AM
Deafening silence to your question , Lydia -  I was sure someone must have an opinion on this matter ......... :-\
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on January 05, 2015, 12:26:46 PM
I've been using this for several years, it's available in many garden centers or online from Amazon etc.

http://www.bayergarden.co.uk/Products/s/Systhane-Fungus-Fighter.aspx (http://www.bayergarden.co.uk/Products/s/Systhane-Fungus-Fighter.aspx)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: chasw on January 05, 2015, 03:24:02 PM
Yes I use the same as Richard,although not a lot of success this year  :(
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on January 05, 2015, 03:35:40 PM
Sorry this one went under the radar.  I think any fungicide you would use for tomatoes etc would be fine.  Whatever you can lay your hands on!
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on January 05, 2015, 06:55:03 PM
Yes I use the same as Richard,although not a lot of success this year  :(

Ditto, didn't do anything different & I'll be experimenting this year, despite always using a sealed bag I think sterilizing the vermiculite in the oven might be worth trying. Spoke to someone last year who said they don't use fungicides at all so I will be picking their brains.

very frustrating when you end up with pots of mush  :-\
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on January 05, 2015, 07:07:59 PM
Ian doesn't use any fungicides unless he sees some problem beginning, when he will add some sulphur powder.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: emma T on January 05, 2015, 07:08:20 PM
I tried not using fungicide .......had a lovely bag of blueish mold instead of happy snowdrop chips
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on January 05, 2015, 07:21:51 PM
I think the weakest link must be the vermiculite. I've stuck very carefully to the method I found to have a very high success rate for years and lost most of them last year, not sure what else it can be other than the medium.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropcollector on January 05, 2015, 07:35:37 PM
I think it is wise to use different fungicides every time. If you use the same everytime, they get used to it. I mean resistance.
Saprol ( often for sale on Ebay) and Switch are two good fungicides also.

Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on January 05, 2015, 07:48:19 PM
Worth trying in the long term, but I haven't yet chipped any previously chipped bulbs.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropcollector on January 05, 2015, 08:14:59 PM
Maybe a stupid question  :-[, but is growing bullips very different from growing seeds ? I have no experience with growing any
chippings or chipping itself.

For growing seeds, I do not use Vemiculite at all. Only lot of Perlite in the soil. You can give plenty water mixed with what you want.
Perlite does not take anything, it just brings lot of drainage in your mix.
The only thing is that you have to water regular !!

And the Perlite makes is difficult to find your one year old little bulps..... :-X
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: chasw on January 06, 2015, 09:51:30 AM
Yes,Richard we talked about sterilising the vermiculite earlier,think I will put mine in the oven for a while(while Jan is out that is) before using it this year,
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on January 06, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Maybe a stupid question  :-[, but is growing bullips very different from growing seeds ? I have no experience with growing any
chippings or chipping itself.

For growing seeds, I do not use Vemiculite at all. Only lot of Perlite in the soil. You can give plenty water mixed with what you want.
Perlite does not take anything, it just brings lot of drainage in your mix.
The only thing is that you have to water regular !!

And the Perlite makes is difficult to find your one year old little bulps..... :-X

Perlite, or sometimes vermiculite is used  as the medium to put chipped bulb sections into when trying to increase the propagation rate by the method of cutting the bulbs into small pieces , to encourage the production of baby bulbs in the cut pieces - this  can provide a much faster increase in some cases than "natural" vegetative  increase.  Perlite is a reasonably "clean" material to use and is more or less, as I understand it, inert, so there are fewer problems with contamination of the growing pieces from rots. The cut pieces are put in plastic bags or boxes in the perlite, which has only a VERY small amount of moisture in it, and put in a warm  dark place - sometimes the warm "laundry" cupboard of a house -  to wait for the baby bulbs to grow.   It is not so hard t find those babies  inthe perlite as it would be to find dormant baby bulbs ( grown from seed ) in perlite, because they have the longer piece of the mother bulb attached to them .

This explanation may  not be perfect - but I hope it helps!
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on January 06, 2015, 11:05:55 AM
I stopped using perlite years ago, too dusty! the bag really needs to be soaked before use so it's not ideal if you want to keep a sterile medium. Not sure how well perlite would work as a medium for chipping but it's not something I would use.

Vermiculite is just a cleaner, easier to use product IMO, finding the chips months later can be tricky!
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on January 06, 2015, 11:18:30 AM
I think the other important thing is to thoroughly sterelize the blade and surface you cut on between each bulb (or preferably use a different blade for each one).
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on January 06, 2015, 02:17:40 PM
I'm still using your method Brian, really not sure what happened last year but out of 400+ chips I've probably got less than 50 survived. I'm very careful to wash & scrub everything before starting and always use new blades for each bulb.

I assume it was the bag of vermiculite (which was sealed) because it's the only part of the process I have no real control over cleanliness. I'm sure the manufacturing & distribution process must lead to some potential for "bad lots", maybe just stored badly or too long?

Not sure how practical baking in the oven will be, it will slow the process down but better than losing so much. Have some other ideas but I'm reluctant to stray from a method that only a few years ago was giving me such good results.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: snowdropcollector on January 06, 2015, 03:03:21 PM
Thank you Maggi, it is clear to me now  ;).
Richard, you are right that Perlite is dusty. But I still like to use it, for planting my bulbs, mixed with a little soil. Until now I do not have
any problems. Of course this can be different with your chippings in it. As said before, no experience with that.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on January 06, 2015, 05:34:46 PM
I assume it was the bag of vermiculite (which was sealed) because it's the only part of the process I have no real control over cleanliness. I'm sure the manufacturing & distribution process must lead to some potential for "bad lots", maybe just stored badly or too long?

I agree that this is probably the weakest link, not quite sure what would be the best approach to sterilising it.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: chasw on January 07, 2015, 08:11:26 AM
Going to heat mine through in the oven ................................................ :o :o
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on January 07, 2015, 08:44:36 AM
Vermiculite + microwave doesn't seem like a good combination, turning my kitchen into a lab is one thing, blowing it up....  ;D

Will try baking & a few other things, I have old stacking vegetable steamer which might be another method. Would be interesting to hear from those who don't use fungicides.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on January 07, 2015, 10:55:25 AM
Ian doesn't use any fungicides unless he sees some problem beginning, when he will add some sulphur powder.

As I said, Ian doesn't use fungicides when chipping  - he has pretty good results -  not that he does a great deal of chipping. I think he believes, as I do, that you get stronger plants from "natural" propagation.
 I often wonder if half the problems  ( maybe more!) of these new 'drops which seem so miffy and prone to disappearing do not come from their origin as chips.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Paddy Tobin on January 07, 2015, 11:04:15 AM
I think the same as you, Maggi
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Alan_b on January 07, 2015, 12:09:54 PM
... I often wonder if half the problems  ( maybe more!) of these new 'drops which seem so miffy and prone to disappearing do not come from their origin as chips.

I don't see the act of chipping as weakening the bulb but rather artificially strengthening it for a limited period; a sort of 'intensive care'.  But when the chipped bulbs are 'let out of hospital' are they really well enough to survive the rigours of the world outside?  That's when the losses occur. 
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on January 07, 2015, 12:14:42 PM
I'm sure some new drops have been "mass produced" before they've had a chance to establish as good doers, won't name names...

I guess with natural vs chipping there's a balance, I can, and have turned 40 ish Mighty Atom into 350+ flowering bulbs within 3 years which I doubt is achieveable without chopping things up. That allowed me to plant a large area quickly and sell the excess

I would also say having then dug up the bulbs >:( the chipped bulbs that were planted were noticably better clumps than those which had been planted by division a year or so earlier.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Alan_b on January 07, 2015, 02:55:21 PM
When you're in 'intensive care' you are neither expected nor able to go out to work.  Thus it is with chipped bulbs, which are not require nor able to do their normal job of producing flowers each year.  I imagine that if you were to take full-sized bulbs and could treat them with some 'hormone' that would suppress flower formation then you might achieve the same rate of increase as you can with a chipped bulb.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Hans J on January 07, 2015, 03:55:10 PM
Vermiculite + microwave doesn't seem like a good combination, turning my kitchen into a lab is one thing, blowing it up....  ;D

Will try baking & a few other things, I have old stacking vegetable steamer which might be another method. Would be interesting to hear from those who don't use fungicides.

I have just found this topic ...here some words from me :
With twinscaling of Galanthus I have no expierience ...but a lot with sowing cactus
They need also very clean ( near steril ) growing situations ...I have grown many hundrets of Cacti from seed until flowering
From friends I know they use Vermiculte for twin scaling ...because it is easy for sterilizing
Fill a big jar with Vermicultite  and put it in your oven by a temperatur of 160° for 120 minutes ( you could add a little water )
Thats the big advantage for Vermiculite ...Perlite is not so well for sterilizing
My Cacti are most sown with the so called "Fleischer" method ...the sowing medium comes in a jar and shall be sterilized in the oven ...after cool down the seeds will be sowing and the cover will closed ...after some weeks  without opening when the seedlings are big enough to transplate
In the times now I sow in single pots and put these in plastic bags ...after this they also closed for some weeks ....when the seedlings are big enough I open the bags carefull ( more and more each day )after some days they can removed and the seedlings grow in more less natural conditions
It is in my eyes impossible to grow cacti from seeds not in very clean conditions ...you will get fungus so quick !

Hans
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Alan_b on January 07, 2015, 04:17:18 PM
Presumably if you were being really professional about this you would use a sterile air supply as well as keeping everything else sterile.  I wonder how Thompson and Morgan are progressing with their 'Elizabeth Harrison' bulb?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on January 07, 2015, 04:57:43 PM
As I said, Ian doesn't use fungicides when chipping  - he has pretty good results -  not that he does a great deal of chipping. I think he believes, as I do, that you get stronger plants from "natural" propagation.
 I often wonder if half the problems  ( maybe more!) of these new 'drops which seem so miffy and prone to disappearing do not come from their origin as chips.

Sorry missed that earlier, does Ian sterilise whatever mix he uses?

Hans, thank you. Think I will try several methods this year, I would really like to be more confident and chip more but years like the last one just put me off chopping up precious things.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on January 07, 2015, 05:11:35 PM
Quote
Sorry missed that earlier, does Ian sterilise whatever mix he uses?

No. He has used, at various times ,  perlite, vermiculite, sand and moss.  He likes to use moss ( he doesn't have to buy it!)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on January 07, 2015, 05:49:00 PM
It has been suggested that the problem could lie with the storage of the vermiculite or even fungal infections in the air.  It would seem that some vermiculite is sold in bags which have holes in them which permit airborne infection, whilst others are in resealable bags which ensures the least possibility of infection.  This can be minimized by moistening the freshly opened vermiculite and then putting in the resealable bag/box that you intend to put the chips in, only opening it once the chips are out of the fungicide to put them in.  Once you have done this if any vermiculite remains use it for something else and buy a new bag - after all it is a lot cheaper than a snowdrop!  Again opening the bags as the pips develop allows for the introduction of any airborne disease so this should be avoided if at all possible.  I have only ever used brand new bags and always throw them away or use them for something else.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on January 07, 2015, 06:24:02 PM
I have only ever used brand new bags and always throw them away or use them for something else.

Hmmmm, note to self - don't share Brian's sandwiches....... ;) :P :-X ;D
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: RichardW on January 07, 2015, 06:55:24 PM
It has been suggested that the problem could lie with the storage of the vermiculite or even fungal infections in the air.  It would seem that some vermiculite is sold in bags which have holes in them which permit airborne infection, whilst others are in resealable bags which ensures the least possibility of infection.  This can be minimized by moistening the freshly opened vermiculite and then putting in the resealable bag/box that you intend to put the chips in, only opening it once the chips are out of the fungicide to put them in.  Once you have done this if any vermiculite remains use it for something else and buy a new bag - after all it is a lot cheaper than a snowdrop!  Again opening the bags as the pips develop allows for the introduction of any airborne disease so this should be avoided if at all possible.  I have only ever used brand new bags and always throw them away or use them for something else.

I get through a lot of vermiculite so get industrial sized bags which probably doesn't help, with the quantity needed for chipping smaller resealable bags would be a much better idea.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Uwe on September 30, 2015, 06:07:41 PM

 my first chipping  :)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on September 30, 2015, 06:13:45 PM
That is a successful start, Uwe! Well done   8)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Uwe on September 30, 2015, 06:18:31 PM

many thanks Maggi and i have very little loss .Almost 100% are good . I potted them today and i hope it continues so good !
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: mark smyth on September 30, 2015, 06:59:18 PM
Does the flower bud in the centre of the bulb become a bulb after chipping?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Uwe on September 30, 2015, 07:12:13 PM

sorry Mark,how do you mean ??
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Matt T on September 30, 2015, 08:44:21 PM
Mark, when I chipped my bulb at the end of May there was not yet a young flower bud in the bulb, just bulb scales. No doubt there would have been undifferentiated tissue at the very centre, but probably 'plastic' enough to become anything. Doesn't the young flower bud develop gradually over the summer dormant period, so we're probably chipping and twinning at a time before this has developed?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on November 30, 2015, 02:02:57 PM
 A photo from Razvan Chisu 

[attachimg=1]


Raz  titles this photo : "Procrastination results -  From scale to flower in 5 months  "

Quite amazing results - and perhaps mostly showing the desperation of the plant to survive!  :)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on November 30, 2015, 03:16:16 PM
How extraordinary!
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Matt T on November 30, 2015, 07:18:26 PM
 :o :o :o
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on January 08, 2016, 04:58:34 PM
Found some pix from John Grimshaw on Facebook  which are relevant here .....
John Grimshaw: " These are 'Colossus' dissected in late June/July, showing how advanced the flower is - the anthers have fully formed pollen in them; how the shoot sits within the bulb; and how one can produce a chip with complete shoot still attached"

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2] 

[attachimg=3]
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: WSGR on April 05, 2018, 12:19:39 PM
New here! So forgive me if I put this in the wrong place.

1) In twin scaling, they mention methylated spirit and fungicide. Where can I buy these cheaply please, considering that I only need a small amount please?

2) Also, I have a Wendy's Gold which has a seed pod which is quite yellow and big. What should I do with it please?
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on April 05, 2018, 04:29:34 PM
Not Methylated spirits - white spirit obtainable from the chemists.  Most garden supplies should sell fungicide which will always come in useful.  Have sent you a PM.

Poke the seed pod into the soil near the parent plant about 1/5cm deep and keep your fingers crossed!
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: brianw on April 05, 2018, 07:45:56 PM
I buy methylated spirit from my local builders merchant/paint suppliers. Useful to control mealy bugs etc. on large bulbs. Same supplier for white spirit. Not sure if the water white IMS, industrial MS, is available outside of industry but apart from the pyridine smell and blue colour my plants don't seem to complain.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Alan_b on April 05, 2018, 09:23:01 PM
Most people who do twin-scaling seem to have managed to get hold of fungicides that are not available to the amateur anymore.  It's debatable whether anything you can still buy in a garden centre would be suitable.

Plant the seed pod whole and hope for the best. 
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Blonde Ingrid on April 07, 2018, 11:02:45 AM
New here! So forgive me if I put this in the wrong place.

1) In twin scaling, they mention methylated spirit and fungicide. Where can I buy these cheaply please, considering that I only need a small amount please?

2) Also, I have a Wendy's Gold which has a seed pod which is quite yellow and big. What should I do with it please?

Methylated spirit is fine, you can pick it up cheaply at hardware stores or Amazon. The fungicide used by a number of chipper/twin scalers is Fungus Clear Ultra. Again, I got mine from Amazon.

With regard to seed pods,I have used the following with great success.

I let the non-yellow drop pods turn yellowish, the yellow drop pods turn golden. I then pick them including around 6-8 inches of stalk. I place this in a cardboard egg tray, labled as to which seeds are in each cup. I keep the tray in a cool dry place, my workshop. I keep checking the tray until the pods burst and the seeds are ejected. Pot them up and away you go.

This has delivered excellent results for me.

Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: annew on April 18, 2018, 10:51:05 PM
Others have had success with simply burying the whole seedpod. Either way, take Ian Young's advice and bury the seeds/seedpod 3-4cm deep.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Natalia on April 19, 2018, 04:04:03 PM
Dear friends, tell me - when chipping form  "pakuliformis" and "reverse pakuliformis" persist?
  One of the forum colleagues in the conversation claimed that the form was not saved.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Natalia on April 19, 2018, 04:11:16 PM
And one more question - did anyone chip shapes of this type (photo)?
  Do they keep their appearance - the shape of a flower?

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Alan_b on April 19, 2018, 06:53:24 PM
And one more question - did anyone chip shapes of this type (photo)?
  Do they keep their appearance - the shape of a flower?

I have a similar snowdrop (nivalis) with both the reflexed outer petals and the absent inner petals.  But I won't know for a few years yet whether this flower form is preserved.   
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on April 21, 2018, 09:12:08 AM
Dear friends, tell me - when chipping form  "pakuliformis" and "reverse pakuliformis" persist?
  One of the forum colleagues in the conversation claimed that the form was not saved.

The answer I think is to chip and not twin-scale!  If you merely cut the bulb into four or six you are far more likely to have enough genetic material to carry the shape and pattern on.  People have chipped things like 'South Hayes' and ended up with some that are pure white, I have seen twin-scaled 'Trymmer' where nearly every one is different.  Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Natalia on April 22, 2018, 02:05:13 PM
thanks for answers

Alan_b - yes, this form of the flower is stable - I have several plants of this type of different types - they keep their shape from year to year.

Brian Ellis - Yes, I was wrong and I asked the wrong question

Thanks, but it helped.

 When you trimmed the trims, did you observe a variation in shape? Do I understand correctly?
 Then the meeting question - there is still an old way of reproduction of Amarylls - cross-cutting the bottom of the bulb. Theoretically this is just a stimulation of the formation of children. How do you think - in this case there will also be a scatter in forms?

I chiping  chimeras - the young plants received from chips completely repeated the parent plant.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Brian Ellis on April 24, 2018, 09:25:12 AM
When you trimmed the trims, did you observe a variation in shape? Do I understand correctly?
Slight variation in shape and definite variation in marking in the example I quoted.
Then the meeting question - there is still an old way of reproduction of Amarylls - cross-cutting the bottom of the bulb.
I haven't done this so do not know the answer, I always thought about doing it with hyachinths, but never got round to it!
I chiping  chimeras - the young plants received from chips completely repeated the parent plant.

That is very exciting, you are the first person that I know that has had this success, well done.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Maggi Young on May 29, 2018, 05:49:57 PM
Yanick Neff -  all prepared  for  twin-scaling .....

[attachimg=1]

www.swiss-drops.ch (http://www.swiss-drops.ch)
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: annew on May 29, 2018, 06:56:25 PM
thanks for answers

Alan_b - yes, this form of the flower is stable - I have several plants of this type of different types - they keep their shape from year to year.

Brian Ellis - Yes, I was wrong and I asked the wrong question

Thanks, but it helped.

 When you trimmed the trims, did you observe a variation in shape? Do I understand correctly?
 Then the meeting question - there is still an old way of reproduction of Amarylls - cross-cutting the bottom of the bulb. Theoretically this is just a stimulation of the formation of children. How do you think - in this case there will also be a scatter in forms?

I chiping  chimeras - the young plants received from chips completely repeated the parent plant.
Sorry I have not been following this thread. Yes you can cross-cut the base and they will make bulbils.
Some inverse poculiforms seem stable (eg Trymlet and Trym), but some are very unstable (eg Trimmer). Be prepared to save only the ones that are true, and throw away the others! Also do not chip the young bulbs again until they have flowered so you can check they are true before cutting.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Will23 on April 05, 2019, 09:20:33 PM
Hi, I'm just looking for a bit of advice if possible please.  I noticed a few pots in which the bulbs had not sprouted this winter, so knocked out the pots.  Most of them had rotted but, one of them contained two bulbs with no shoots or roots.  The variety is Hollis.  They were firm but there was no sign of life.  I decided to try to save them so gave them a good soak in fungicide and chipped them into 28 pieces.  This was at the end of January.  There are a lot of bulbils on the chips now and, if it was autumn, I would be potting them up.  Should I pot them up now or leave them in the bag over the summer and pot up at the normal time for chips?  I've attached a photo of a couple of the bulbs. What do you think?  Many thanks, Will

Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: David Lowndes on April 06, 2019, 06:09:09 AM
I haven’t any experience of this situation but my instinct is that 2 months in the bag is long enough. Temperatures are rising and metabolic activity will increase so more oxygen will be needed (admittedly not a lot!). So, I would pot them up now.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: annew on April 12, 2019, 12:26:48 PM
I would pot them up now and keep somewhere cool and shaded. They will probably not produce any leaves until next spring at the usual time.
Title: Re: Chipping/Twin-scaling type question
Post by: Will23 on April 13, 2019, 08:17:51 AM
Thank you for your comments David & Anne.  I'll pot them up this weekend.  Cheers, Will
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