Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: gote on July 08, 2008, 01:28:35 PM
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I am afraid that I have been too busy to post - even to read :(
However, I do have some flowers.
Maggie,
Should we not open a general thread about Lilium and allies (Cardiocrinum. Notholirion and Nomocharis)?
Anyway This year I have flower in two different Cardiocrinums. If anybody knows what they are I would be garteful. It seems that there are more variations than those described.
This one flowers for the second time and I got it as var yunnanensis. If someone thinks that Cardiocrinums should not survive Swedish winters without cover they are right. I am surprised but the last few winters were rather mild of course.
The last picture shows the peculiar bracts that look like petals and fall off before the flower opens.
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The other Cardiocrimum arrived as giganteum It is definitely larger It is over 2.5m I believe. It failed absolutely the first year, It put up a short stalk (year #0) and died leaving one offset. The first picture shows this offset year 2wo that is 2007 in April.
In May this year it was obvious that something was going to happen.
The next two shows it a week ago. Today all flowers are over.
I note that the flowers are slightly bent, that the tepals are rather loose not like a white trumpet Lilium and that they are somewhat unsymmetric.
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So when I am at it:
Lilium henryi never survives my winters outside. Some years ago I tried to see if I could get a more hardy variety directly from China.
It was mislabeled and I found out that it was Lilium rosthornii. According to my literature, L. rosthornii was described at the turn of the last centurey and never seen again. I understand that it is quite common in China and sometimes grown as food. a real rarity ;) L. rosthornii is hardy here, vigorous and has a stronger stalk. It is very late in season and sets no seed with me. It scales easily, however.
Since it was a success I ordered another rosthrnii to get some variation and perhaps seed.
That one was also mislabeled and showed up as L lijiangense described as late as 1985.
Also hardy and in flower now. Note the black line in each tepal and the unusual shape of the pedicels.
It seems to be easy from seed.
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Göte, great idea for a new thread... I have moved your posts here to the Bulbs General Section to make this new page! 8)
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Thanks for the nice words Maggie, I hope I do not take up too much space with many pics of the same species but I think that it is helpful for identification.
I forgot to say that I grow all these in semi-shade condition on humusy sandy soil with relatively low pH.
Göte
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Göte , I am sure that this will be a popular subject.
We have grown Lilium henryi for some years and it survives and flowers but does not increase :(
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I don't know it as a flowering plant but the foliage in the second batch looks like what I have as Cardiocrinum caudatum. Is that a possibility?
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Göte,
If you are still looking for L. rosthornii seed, I could send you some later this (southern hemisphere) season.
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I don't know it as a flowering plant but the foliage in the second batch looks like what I have as Cardiocrinum caudatum. Is that a possibility?
Leslie - I think you meant to write cordatum. It is reputedly rock-hardy as it has been growing for years in the Montreal Botanic gardens.
johnw - +23c at 22:15
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I didn't actually. Meant caudatum. So I've get the name wrong? What's new?
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I didn't actually. Meant caudatum. So I've get the name wrong? What's new?
Leslie - Can't find C. caudatum. Can you tell us more?
johnw
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Took this Nomocharis pic today. The label says N. forrestii. I hope it is correct.
(http://magnar.aspaker.no/Nomocharis%20forrestii%2008.jpg)
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I didn't actually. Meant caudatum. So I've get the name wrong? What's new?
Leslie - Can't find C. caudatum. Can you tell us more?
Sorry John, I'm not only confused myself, but seems I now confusing everyone else as well.
I wrote caudatum in the first place because that's what my plants were grown as (from seed) and I've never questioned the spelling. So when I confirmed that, it was with the question, did I have the name (spelling) wrong? Obviously I did (easy enough to do, like spelling someone's name the wrong way :) and will trot out and change it ASAP.
johnw
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Took this Nomocharis pic today. The label says N. forrestii. I hope it is correct.
(http://magnar.aspaker.no/Nomocharis%20forrestii%2008.jpg)
It looks identical to what I have under that name Magnar. Mine was raised from seed from Australia but I don't know its original source.
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I didn't actually. Meant caudatum. So I've get the name wrong? What's new?
Leslie - Can't find C. caudatum. Can you tell us more?
Sorry John, I'm not only confused myself, but seems I now confusing everyone else as well.
I wrote caudatum in the first place because that's what my plants were grown as (from seed) and I've never questioned the spelling. So when I confirmed that, it was with the question, did I have the name (spelling) wrong? Obviously I did (easy enough to do, like spelling someone's name the wrong way :) and will trot out and change it ASAP.
johnw
Leslie - You will be pleased with the C. cordatum. The fragrance is very good from rather small flowers. I like it for its new foliage which is quite bronzy. Mine died down alarmingly early this year - I hope those wretched lily beetles haven't done it in (again!).
johnw
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As you've guessed, mine hasn't flowered yet but the seed was from plants at the Dunedin Botanic Gardens and the rosette of young leaves was basically green but with heavy mottling of red/brown and it for that that I originally wanted the seed. I hope they come true. I have about 8 I think.
LesLEY
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Magnar,
That Nomocharis forrestii is absolutely stunning!! What a colour and spotting. Beautiful! :o
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Rob,
Thanks for the offer but I have in the meantime got seedlings going from the RHS Lily group's seedexchange. For now I am well provided.
Lesley,
Cardiocrium cordatum is a Japanese endemic. My plants have Chinese origin.
Cordatum and its Chinese counterpart cathayanum are both supposed to be smaller; never more than 1.5m. The one I have as giganteum is about 2.5m.
(I must measure them both. I always forget >:( ).
Something that bothers me is that pictures of C giganteum (presumably from south Himalaya) show real trumpet shape whereas my big one has these loose unconnected tepals and bent flower shape.
I had one last year that had these flowers and was definitely smaller. It was labeled as C. cathayanum and fitted the description so-so.
I assume that the difference is not easily seen in herbarium material but on the living plant it is very obvious.
Göte
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Thanks for extra information Gote.
Paul my seed of Nomocharis forrestii came from Marcus just 4 years ago. It has flowered twice already.
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Lesley. Well done!! I've never had quick flowering from Liliums from seed for me, but then again the last 6 or 7 years everything has been neglected due to my health. I've got more seedling repotting done in the last few months than I have in years, and then only a fraction of what needs doing. ::) Still not stopping me from sowing more stuff though, just cutting it down a bit from how much I was sowing some years in the past. ;D
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Göte,
Something that bothers me is that pictures of C giganteum (presumably from south Himalaya) show real trumpet shape whereas my big one has these loose unconnected tepals and bent flower shape.
Sure I remember (but can't recall where of course) a reference to this phenomenon somewhere else - that the flower form varies across the range, becoming progressively less symmetrical.
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Rob,
Thank you for the confirmation.
I never remember anything these days but if you should wake up in the middle of the night and say "yes that was the cardocrinium reference" I would be glad to have it ;D Well also if you remember in the daytime ;D ;D
I have already decided to try to get a giganteum (meaning a bulb) from the west end of the range.
Who could supply? Paul Christian?? I am not interested in seed. They germinate one year too late (even if well), take seven years and although I have been lucky with bulbs, seedlings die in the winter.
Göte
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Two Lilium in bloom here today - L. nepalense with wonderful night fragrance (dampened by Amorphophallus titanum Konjac unfortunately). Also one from seed ex the Taylors when they spoke in Vancouver, L. porophyllum (NW Himalayas) and I can find no reference to this name. A few L. canadense just coming out and L. michiganense is out (last shot).
johnw
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I didn't realize L. nepalense was night-scented. I'll be out there in a few months, torch in hand and sniffer on the alert. :)
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John: Beautiful pictures, that L. porophyllum in particular is stunning! I had never heard of it before, but after looking at IPNI I wonder if it could be L. polyphyllum?
L. taliense is flowering here, three stems this year, so I must be doing something right (by doing nothing...) ::)
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Arisaema - You are on to something. I guess it was a typing error here or on the package of seed. So L. polyphyllum seems to fit, I will go out and self it if not too late (one done). Here is another shot from this evening, this one hasn't reflexed yet - this flower has no stigma.
Your L. taliense is superb, ours has a lot more yellow. You have some wonderful plants and I guess I should never be surprised - it's Norway.
Thanks again
johnw
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I didn't realize L. nepalense was night-scented. I'll be out there in a few months, torch in hand and sniffer on the alert. :)
Leslie - The fragrance of L. nepalense is quite exotic with slightly soapy/waxy overtones. It has been warm the past few nights with temperatures at 20c. The scent of the lindens is incredible in the front, horrible tree but oh those 2-3 nights in mid-summer make you forget its many faults. I meant to mention that Vico Yellow Clivia is very slightly fragrant - I had no idea.
Pity that Amorphophallus Konjac has the yard stunk up...and then there are the flies.
johnw
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Leslie - I meant to mention that I was rather alarmed when my C. cordatum died off rather suddenly about 5 or more weeks ago. Tonight I was brave enough to check the roots and they look big and stout so I assume the bulb is okay. So yet another one not to be skewering with the fork mid-season a la cordatum satay.
johnw
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Cardiocrinum cordatum should be in bloom here very soon. This will be the third time it has bloomed here – it’s been in the garden for eight years. It bloomed year 1, year 4 and now year 8. The plant here has never shown any trace of bronze on the foliage. It emerges very early, sometimes in late winter, and overnight freezes do not seem to bother it. So far, the deer have not touched it, although they have eagerly cropped other nearby plants.
The tall Cardiocrinum Göte has described appears to be the same plant which has flowered several times in recent years here in the greater Washington, D.C., USA area (USDA zone 6 and 7). Whatever this is, it always seems to bloom much earlier (first week of June this year) than the shorter C. cordatum. One grower received it from Chen Yi under the name C. cathayense ( a misprint for yunnanense?).
I don't yet have this tall plant in my garden. Isolated plants copiously set what seems to be viable seed. This is also true of my Cardiocrinum cordatum.
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When your C. cordatum flowers will you post a picture of it please Jim?
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Lesley, here's what it looks like today.
The growth of this plant is very peculiar. It emerges very early, sometime in early- to mid-March. For the next two months the foliage becomes progressively larger yet remains huddled just over the soil surface. Then sometime in June the annual stem begins to lengthen and raise the false whorl of foliage up to over a foot above ground. At this stage it looks like a Hosta on a stick. Sometime in late June or early July the annual stem continues its growth above the false whorl of leaves; eventually the inflorescence begins to differentiate and bloom.
This is the only species of Cardiocrinum I've observed closely: do the others grow in that fashion?
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John: Is L. polyphyllum fragrant as well? Fantastic Amorphophallus, that's one I wish I was able to grow, they've always failed :P
L. duchartrei opened it's first flower today.
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Thanks Jim, not at all what I would have expected from a Cardiocrinum. Mine haven't reached that stage yet.
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John: Is L. polyphyllum fragrant as well? Fantastic Amorphophallus, that's one I wish I was able to grow, they've always failed :P
L. duchartrei opened it's first flower today.
L. polyphyllum indeed is slightly fragrant. Wonderful L. duchaterei there. Would you like to trade seed?
johnw
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L. polyphyllum indeed is slightly fragrant. Wonderful L. duchaterei there. Would you like to trade seed?
Yes, that would be great! I'll try selfing the lilies, and there's three fat pods developing on the yellow Nomocharis :)
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L. polyphyllum indeed is slightly fragrant. Wonderful L. duchaterei there. Would you like to trade seed?
Yes, that would be great! I'll try selfing the lilies, and there's three fat pods developing on the yellow Nomocharis :)
Wonderful I will make a note. re: A. Konjac, you say you have trouble growing it. Do you mean from seed or is it not surviving outdoors? Ours set many offsets and can be sent with the Lilium seed.
johnw
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Jim,
According to the litterature both cathayanum and cordatum have this habitus of a whorl sitting high up the stalk. Giganteum and its variety? yunnanense are supposed to be pyramidal. However, there might be a taxonomic mistake somewhere. Cordatum is a Japanese endemic which means that it has been well observed. China is still in the process of being investigated and it might well be that not all cathayanum look that way. The ones distributed by CY have the leaves distributed along the stalk. However, there are no basal leaves on any of the two that are flowering for me this year.
Göte
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Arisaema,
Have you any news about the stoloniferous L21?? I have a number of plants of that type but no flower. I do not remember how I got them. they suddenly appeared half a dozen or so. I believed I had planted lopophorum in that spot and last year one flowered. (The open flower type which is not so cute)
On the second picture, the mystery one is in the background(twice)
By the way. Does anyone know about L papilliferum. Is that one stoloniferous too? I had one flowering (I probably got it as "red from Tibet") last year. It now seems to have appeared 3 dm from where it was last year but without any bud.
Today I have distichum, pardalinum, amoenum, duchartreii? in flower. I am pressed for time so pictures have to come later.
Göte
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Göte;
Yes, it actually opened today in the rain, definitely L. duchartrei.
> I do not remember how I got them. they suddenly appeared half a dozen or so.
That's typical of some clones of L. duchartrei and lankongense, they produce multiple bulbils along the stolons which only need a single season to mature. If it weren't for the beautiful flowers I suspect they would be considered weeds...
John;
Thanks for the offer, but I've more or less given up on them. Every species I've tried has rotted, some during wet summers, others during winter storage, so either I'm doing something very wrong or they just don't like our cool, rainy summers.
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re: Lilium souliei
This one from ChenYi is suspicious. Last year as mentioned before it was planted but took ages to surface as there was much rot on the bulb scales. It also grew about a foot tall when it finally managed to grow. It had bublils which makes me think it is something else. This year it is looking a bit more reserved in size. Does the presence of bulbils eliminate souliei as a possibility? Several of these have sprouted in the pot.
johnw
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John,
As far as I am aware many species of Lilium will produce bulbils if stressed enough, even though they don't normally produce them. Usually it is decapitation of a flowerhead that will trigger it in those that are more borderline on bulbil production (i.e they're those that would be easier to trigger it on) but I have heard that sometimes other species that traditionally do not produce them WILL do so in the right circumstances. Whether the rot you mention was enough to have it panic and produce bulbils I don't know, but I thought it might be worthwhile mentioning it. Any experts out there that confirm or deny what I have heard? ???
My only experience with it was a lovely yellow asiatic with dark spots.... normally no sign of them but one year the buds got snipped off by something when it was about a foot tall. It responded by producing bulbils in pretty much every leaf axil of the plant, whereas normally there were no signs of any of them. Only year it ever did it either. :-\
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John,
I am afraid that I have not heard of anyone actually getting L. soulei from chenyi no matter what you order. Mind you, you might be the lucky one :)
As for bulbils, I have found if you give a good deep top dressing of leaf litter on Nomocharis, Lilium macklinae etc you will find one or 2 bulbils below developing on the stalks in the leaf litter just before they go dormant. A good way to multiply specially good spotted forms.
Susan
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Do the bulbs of L. souliei look like L. lophophorum? There's another Chinese source offering what I think could be the real thing, but their minimum order is unfortunately quite high.
Below a recycled pic of Notholirion from July 1st, I'd appreciate if anyone could confirm if it is N. bulbuliferum?
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Lovely, Arisaema. Only ever seen N. thompsonianum here. Yours is very pretty!! Liek the colour and flower form.
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Thanks, Paul, it is lovely, very quick from seeds as well :)
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Do the bulbs of L. souliei look like L. lophophorum? There's another Chinese source offering what I think could be the real thing, but their minimum order is unfortunately quite high.
Arisaema - As I recall the bulb was a dark burgundy colour on arrival with stout curved scales. I can't say I've paid much attention to my L. lophophorum bulbs to make a comparison. I'd be interested to know the other Chinese source for L. souliei. A shot of the leaves attached.
Leslie - The Amorphophallus is waning so the fragrance of just 2 L. nepalense flowers was delightful filling the yard last night. It was humid and 20c last night and those conditions seem to enhance the effect. I crossed nepalense with polyphyllum yesterday after seeing the nepalense hybrid in The Garden this month - just maybe; white martagon would make a more sensible cross.
I was surpised Maggi said L. henryi peters out in Scotland. I've had one here for 10-15 years and it always blooms but is indeed slow to spread.
Also L. taliense (?) from AGCBC seed (photos).
Lilium sargentiae from Jens Nielsen seed via Denmark and L. henryi still to come.
johnw
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I don't recall saying that L. henryi peters out, John... merely that it persists but does not thrive... or increase... :(
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I don't recall saying that L. henryi peters out, John... merely that it persists but does not thrive... or increase... :(
Seems I fused your remark with Gote's - permissible at my age.
johnw
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Thank you Arisaema,
I look forward to see them flower. They are among my favourites even if my feelings were not previously reciproced. :-[
I think that the Notholirion is bulbuliferum (previously hyacinthinum) Those I have/had have been more bluish but the flower shape is the same. I find it beautiful and neglected.
I have to apologise for forgetting a feature of Cardiocrinum cathayanum. Giganteum has big whitish bracts that fall off when the flower develops. C. cathayanum is said to have persisting bracts.
Göte
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Thanks for the confirmation, Göte!
John - I've PMed you the source :) Your L. taliense "var. kaichen" looks lovely, I tried ordering it from Chen Yi once, but she sent L. leichtlinii instead... Would you mind posting a picture of the foliage?
ETA: I've also noticed that what she sends as L. souliei is prone to rot, half of them died in their first year, and none have flowered yet. I've posted an old pic of an L. lophophorum bulb below.
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Your L. taliense "var. kaichen" looks lovely, I tried ordering it from Chen Yi once, but she sent L. leichtlinii instead... Would you mind posting a picture of the foliage?
Arisaema, when you say Lilium leichtlinii, you mean the usual orange-flowered form, don't you? Or do you? Has the yellow-flowered form ever been reported from China?
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Jim - Yes, just the common, orange one unfortunately, var. maximowiczii?
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Thanks for the confirmation, Göte!
John - I've PMed you the source :) Your L. taliense "var. kaichen" looks lovely, I tried ordering it from Chen Yi once, but she sent L. leichtlinii instead... Would you mind posting a picture of the foliage?
ETA: I've also noticed that what she sends as L. souliei is prone to rot, half of them died in their first year, and none have flowered yet. I've posted an old pic of an L. lophophorum bulb below.
Here are a few sloppy pix of the L. taliense - in a rush as the rain has started and 1.5 inches of rain tonight and the end of a tropical storm Tuesday. Will self this lily and cross it with nepalense.
johnw
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John - I've PMed you the source :) Your L. taliense "var. kaichen" looks lovely, I tried ordering it from Chen Yi once, but she sent L. leichtlinii instead... Would you mind posting a picture of the foliage?
ETA: I've also noticed that what she sends as L. souliei is prone to rot, half of them died in their first year, and none have flowered yet. I've posted an old pic of an L. lophophorum bulb below.
The souliei (?) looked nothing like thw lophophorum bulb you posted. It was fat and squat the shape of a garlic with thick scales. I will ask Philip MacDougall if he's had any bloom as he sent it to me.
johnw
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Here are a few sloppy pix of the L. taliense - in a rush as the rain has started and 1.5 inches of rain tonight and the end of a tropical storm Tuesday. Will self this lily and cross it with nepalense.
Thank you! I've always wondered if L. taliense and "var. kaichen" differed in any other way that the colour, and it would seem they do, mine has slimmer, darker leaves with papillose edges. I'd be happy to send some pollen if you think it would get there in time, I've had issues with self-incompatibility, only a few good seeds produced each year.
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I agree re shape of lopophorum bulbs. They are unusually slender as in the photo.
Göte
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Johnw,
I think that your Lilium polyphyllum may be wrongly named. It is one of the lilies that I have not grown but the literature says that it is closer to monadelphum and perhaps martagon than to the sinomartagon group.
Polyphyllum is described as having more trumpet shaped flowers that are only reflexed halfway down. Since it grows in north India and Afghanistan but not in China we have little help of Haw or Flora of China.
Googling the picture only produces a painting probably from the Elwes monograph, to which I do not have acesss. Your looks more like form of the talinense, xanthellum group.
Göte
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Re: Lilium polyphyllum.
In case it is any help here is an extract from 'Lilies' by Edward Austin McRae.
'Native to Himalayas, from Afghanistan through Kashmir to Kumaon, at 1800-3700 meters.
Bulb-long, narrow and white grows 25-60cm deep with very long roots.
Stem-40-120cm tall, sometimes as tall as 240cm, with scattered linear, or narrowly lanceolate leaves.
Generally bears 1-10 flowers but sometimes as many as 40. Fragrant nodding, bell shaped flowers with lower half of tepals strongly rolled under. Colour greenish yellow inside, and cream on outside, prettily spotted with lilac. Pollen is orange/red. Seed round and unwinged. Germination-hypogeal in warm conditions and growth is then delayed through a cold season.
Difficult in cultivation, preferring deep planting and no late transplanting, long roots should be shaded. Recommended conditions include a northern exposure, protection from wind, and half shade. Hardiness seems not to be a problem.
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re: L. polyphyllum (not)
Thanks all. It is not clear from my label if the Taylors had collected this lily - whatever it is - in the NW Himalayas or if they were simply stating on the seed packet that it was known to occur in that area. Remember it was originally labelled L. porophyllum. It would be interesting to find out from the Taylors if they had collected the seed and from where. Anyone see them frequently?
johnw
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I think that your Lilium polyphyllum may be wrongly named. It is one of the lilies that I have not grown but the literature says that it is closer to monadelphum and perhaps martagon than to the sinomartagon group.
Polyphyllum is described as having more trumpet shaped flowers that are only reflexed halfway down. Since it grows in north India and Afghanistan but not in China we have little help of Haw or Flora of China.
There is a picture of L. polyphyllum in Phillips & Rix (p. 195 in my book); one of the flowers shown is just opening - it is remarkably similar to the unreflexed picture posted earlier. Mature flowers do indeed seem to resemble monadelphum in their habit.
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I think that your Lilium polyphyllum may be wrongly named. It is one of the lilies that I have not grown but the literature says that it is closer to monadelphum and perhaps martagon than to the sinomartagon group.
Polyphyllum is described as having more trumpet shaped flowers that are only reflexed halfway down. Since it grows in north India and Afghanistan but not in China we have little help of Haw or Flora of China.
There is a picture of L. polyphyllum in Phillips & Rix (p. 195 in my book); one of the flowers shown is just opening - it is remarkably similar to the unreflexed picture posted earlier. Mature flowers do indeed seem to resemble monadelphum in their habit.
Rob - Thanks, I found it on page 194/5. The picture does not really fit the McRae description of "bell shaped flowers with lower half of tepals strongly rolled under" but certainly does look like the one here just opening. However I see no spotting in the photo.
We had close to 50mm of rain yesterday, maybe an 25mm overnight and 40-80mm this afternoon with the approach of Cristobal. Forecast is for showers for the next week! Sure does beat the 14" we had one day in the 1970's but certainly enough.
johnw
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I can't remember who asked if Lilium pallpilliferum produced runners and multiplied this way.
It does, mine are just about in flower and surrounding the main stalk about 10cm away there are new stalks. The foliage is quite fine. I will post a pic when they are open.
Susan
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However I see no spotting in the photo.
Certainly not the same as the Elwes illustration (http://www.the-genus-lilium.com./images/Lilium/polyphyllum01.jpg), but if it isn't polyphyllum, what is it?
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I did Susan,
Thank you this means that mine are not unique.
Göte
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When your C. cordatum flowers will you post a picture of it please Jim?
Here it is, Lesley.
I spoke too soon about deer: something, deer I'll bet, took the other inflorescence the other day.
There is only this one flower on the remaining scape.
As you can see, the flowers lack the radial symmetry typical of true lilies. In fact, when seen head-on, they seem to be compressed from top to bottom into two flaps. Viewing the flowers from the side allows one to see the long slit between the three upper tepals and the three lower tepals; this slit runs a bit more than three-fourths of the length of the bloom. I can't look at these without expecting them to quack or honk at me.
The flower is sweetly fragrant.
When this one bloomed in the past, the flowers did not open any more than what you see here. If they open more this time, I'll post another image.
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Thanks Jim, quite different from what I expected. I hope mine grow to maturity.
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Jim,
Is there any bract to the pedicel or did that fall off when the flower opened?
Göte
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Rob,
I get the impression that the Chinese lilies are not yet sufficiently well known.
there are several that are fairly similar to each others and the photo.
I get the feeling of a typical sinomartagon when I see the pictures.
Talinese and xantellum come to my mind. There may still be new taxa out there to be found and also hybrids.
A big difficulty is that the species are usually described from collected samples and these are sometimes starved and when it comes in a garden situation they will be bigger and have more flowers maybe even larger flowers.
Example L. lopophorum posted by me above. The books say "One flower".
I am perhaps talking through my hat since I have not grown polophyllum or even seen it nor have seen the perhaps unknown one.
However, since polphyllum belongs to the more western group of monadelphum-martagon, It does not seem right.
The photo in Rix is also not very clear. (And Rix is no more immune to errors than the rest of us)
Göte
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Since a copuple of years I grow Lilium lankongense sensu lato.
Like duchartreii the inflorescense is an umbel. like lankongense it is pinkish.
It is nicely intermediate and would support the notion that these are the same species.
I call it duchartreii because of the umbel and because I have grown more pinkish ones that undoubtedly were lankongense.
Göte
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A Chinese martagon? lily that seems fairly unusual is L distichum.
It is hardy and not difficult in semi shade/shade.
Fortunately this is a safe name.
It has
#1: One whorl of leaves halfway up.
#2: it has usually two flowers.
#3: the flowers are not radially symmetrical.
Göte
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Fascinating, Gote. 8)
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I think that the Notholirion is bulbuliferum (previously hyacinthinum) Those I have/had have been more bluish but the flower shape is the same. I find it beautiful and neglected.
Göte
Göte, to judge by your image, the Notholirion bulbiliferum seems to be growing in woodland. Do the bulbs remain in the ground all year? What happens to the foliage during the winter? Do you have protective snow cover?
Can you or anyone else give some pointers for growing Notholirion thomsonianum? I've had my plant since the summer of 2005, and although it seems to grow well, it has not bloomed yet. I keep it in a cold frame, in a pot, and grow it relatively dry. It's dormant from late May until sometime in November when new foliage emerges.
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Göte, to judge by your image, the Notholirion bulbiliferum
Please read that as Notholirion bulbuliferum.
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Jim,
Is there any bract to the pedicel or did that fall off when the flower opened?
Göte
Göte, in the attached images you can see the bract. The second image shows the separation of the upper tepals and lower tepals well. This separation leaves the pollen well exposed.
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Göte,
re polyphyllum
This discussion reminds me of Gates' 1961 NALS article "Lilium polyphyllum? in the Himalayan Region"; suddenly the question mark assumes more significance.
John seemed fairly happy that the P&R photo was close to his plant (save for the lack of spots!). That photo doesn't seem to me to resemble any pictures of xanthellum that I've seen, since the petals only begin to reflex close to the tips - but it does resemble the Elwes illustration. It may be that the P&R plant is not the same entity as the Elwes one but without evidence of, say, reproductive isolation, perhaps one should be conservative and assume that they are?
Jim,
re thomsonianum
It is notoriously difficult to flower - I've had mine for longer than you without seeing a sign of a flowering stalk (but plenty of off-sets)whereas bulbuliferum flowers reliably (but doesn't off-set for me). I do remember a note from someone on the Yahoo lily list some years back who'd flowered thomsonianum - perhaps an archive search there would help?
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I've never flowered thompsonianum either but mine are in small pots. I know there was a discussion at one point on one of the lists somewhere that said they need space and depth, plus a good feed too (if I recall right). Large pots if you're growing them in the pots, I would imagine to insulate them like so many bulbs are that split up when in too small a pot. I just haven't got around to repotting mine into a larger pot, or I haven't been able to find the pot when I think about it! (This is a common problem in my yard unfortunately ::))
I noticed in passing the other day that I have seed down from David (I think) of N. bulbuliferum, so was rather pleased when I realised that. I'd completely forgotten, but as soon as I saw the name on the pot I remembered the pic here. Of course may not be as pink as that one, but should be lovely. Was very chuffed to find that the other day as I was meandering through my shadehouse. ;D
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Göte-Jim-Rob
I have selfed the reputed L. polyphyllum (?) so if you interested in seed please drop me a pm.
I will have to write to the Taylors this summer and include a picture.
johnw
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John,
Yes please! I've tried raising it from seed before - only one of the batch germinated & that seems to have died because of too much winter wet (see Paul, that's just one reason for my sudden interest in raised beds despite a garden which is almost pure sand).
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Jim,
I keep it in woodland conditions. It remains in the soil all year round and is not protected in any special way.
As far as I understand, thompsonianum grows wild in more exposed and drier places and is a more westerly species.
The biggest difficulty in my experience is that the first year seedling is only a thin small leaf and easily damaged.
Göte
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John,
Yes please you are very kind. :)
It will be very interesting to see what it looks like.
Unfortuately I guess it will be 2015 or thereabouts :(
Göte
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Rob and John,
I did not mean to imply that it were L. xanthellum.
What I tried to express is that there is a group of lilies out there, roughly composed by the section sinomartagon, Comber minus the nepalense group and the brick reds (lancifolium etc).
This group contains Chinese woodlanders, higher than 30cm. with pendant flowers and reflexed tepals. The colouring is delicate pink-white-yellow. Xanthellum belongs to this group as does lankongense/duchartreii, wardii talinense etc. In my belief this group is not thoroughly studied. there might be forms out there which are not yet described and there are intermediate forms like the one I posted above.
My impression is that the flower in the pictures looks more as a member of this group than like a member of the group consisting of the caucasians and true martagons which generally has a more robust appearance, stronger colours and grow more exposed and grows more to the west and north of China.
Having said this I have to go back and say that probably I am wrong. :o Eventually I found a picture of garden grown polophyllums in LYB 1954 plate 21. These show precisely the flower shape of John's picture.
The notes say that it is fairly difficult to grow needing very deep root run, disliking root disturbance and too wet winters (which lily does not?) It is also assumed to be very frost hardy.
I get the impression that the kinship to the caucasians has been exaggerated in literature and that the Elwes picture is somewhat misleading.
This has been very educating and I am even more eager to try to grow it.
Göte
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the Elwes picture is somewhat misleading.
It does seem to have overtones of art rather than straight botanical illustration; perhaps another case of gilding the lily.
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Dear Friends, I have heard from a contact, Dr. Markus Hohenegger, in Austria, who was researching into Lilium polyphyllum, and who wished to discuss with Margaret and Henry Taylor to find more about their experiences with this lily in the wild ..... he has now received photos from them of this lily and these can be seen on his website:
http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/polyphyllum.htm
Hope all this helps you with your identifications!
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It looks like the same picture.
We do have a nomenclature problem in that in old classifications all lilies with pendant flowers with reflexed tepals where called "martagons". Today we mean martagon, hansonii, distichum, medeloides and perhaps tsingtauense.
An old description may thus call L superbum a martagon mening nothing else than that the tepals are reflexed. MAybe this is what has conused me.
Göte
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This thread has stirred a memory from years ago in a semi senile brain and I popped out to look in a frame.
In Feb 2003 Henry and Margaret gave a talk to our AGS grop and in the lottery at the end I won a packet of their L. polyphyllum seeds. Although they have never flowered, as most years slugs eat of the top growth as it emerges, I have a small pot of bulbs. I shall make an effort next year to bring them on and get them to flower.
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An incredibly beautiful species, judging from Henry Taylor's pictures, especially the second one with very red pollen, as distinct from orange/tan.
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It must have been very exciting indeed for the Taylors and their companions to see these lilies in large numbers in the wild.....as I belive was the case.
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I missed the last few posts. Henry Taylor's pictures of L. polyphyllum show superb forms. I had thought someone might have been in bed with my polyphyllum but it looks pretty similar to Taylor's L. polyphyllum. There are 4 or 5 more still unflowered here so we might just get a very good one some day. No complaints though.
Meanwhile I photographed my L. henryi (or at least what I grow as henryi) tonight. They are blurry as the light was fading and a sudden breeze came up (why wouldn't it!). Can anyone confirm the identity? Seems I read something about the different leaf shape and size near the flower (see 2nd pic) as signifying another species but I can't recall where.
johnw
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John,
Hohenegger's site (http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/sec5asiatic.htm) summarises the consistent differences between henryi and rosthornii (leaf breadth & capsule length). Rosthornii tends to be shorter and very upright - only a very few henryi selections don't lean. Your plant looks like henryi; compare it with Holger Kühne's very good picture of rosthornii (2nd from left) on the Hohenegger site, which is very similar to rosthornii as I grow it (mine, like Göte's, is seed of Chen Yi origin).
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Thanks Rob. I had been scouring the books but the information was on the website. great site.
johnw
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Here's my L rosthornii showing its very distinctive habit, also I find the leaves rather a pale colour.
Susan
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Maggie
Thanks for posting the link to this wev site. A great site and now added to my 'favourites'.
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Here's my L rosthornii showing its very distinctive habit, also I find the leaves rather a pale colour.
Susan
Thanks Susan. Mine is definitely an archer.
Where the sun has appeared, after a wet 3 weeks stretch.
johnw
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That's lovely Susan.
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Lilium auratum has opened today. i bought this from Wisley a few years ago and it has slowly increased.
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Am I right in thinking this is Lilium philippinense (some idiot has lost the label!). Sorry about the background I realise it would have been better against something darker ::)
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It looks like what I have as that Brian and it should have a wonderful heady perfume. And I can assure you that white on white is very chic. :)
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Yes wonderful perfume Lesley, I do try to keep up with style ;D
Easy to propagate?
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Does anyone know a sure way to distinguish Lilium philippinense and L. formosanum? Because Lilium formosanum was originally distributed as Lilium philippinense var. formosanum, the two are to this day often confused.
I’ve had seed from several sources over the years as L. philippinense, but I have never seen a difference between those plants and plants known to be L. formosanum.
Can anyone offer some diagnostic tips?
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As Jim says, sure it isn't formosanum? Comes down to tube length and that sort of detail.... apparently a lot of what we have here in Aus are hybrids between the two, muddying the water even further! :o
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Does anyone know a sure way to distinguish Lilium philippinense and L. formosanum?
Well, if you look at the description, the most obvious difference is that formosanum is supposed to have yellow pollen and philippinense brown. But.....
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Mine, of which I have no picture, has rich tan/brown pollen. I grew it from seed as L. mackliniae(!) 15 years ago. It set seed for 3 years then never has done, since. It's a big clump now, which I must dig and divide.
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Rob,
And hybrids would have pollen somewhere in between. Do you have a colour chart? ;D
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Aye, there's the rub. :(
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the most obvious difference is that formosanum is supposed to have yellow pollen and philippinense brown.
Thanks for that Rob and all the discussion it has helped enormously, I am now not as confused as I was last night ??? ;D
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Nice Auratum Tony, I think that the unspotte ones were called v. virginale but I have not had time to check it out.
Brian, Are you growing it outside or in a pot? I agree with Lesley and actually a whitish background gives better pictures with a whitish subject.
Göte
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Göte at the moment it is in a pot, and has been since last spring so I was thinking of either repotting or planting out.
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Just had a look at what McRae has to say about differences between L. philippinense and L. formosanum but he 'bottles' it ".......it closely resembles L. formosanum in many respects". Very helpful!
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David,
I get the impression that cross-hybridisation in these two is so easy that it now is almost academic as to which you have. A bit like Trilliums.... unless you have an original provenance as to the wild location the seed came from, there is limited chance of you being able to say with absolute certainty what you have. :o
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Both nice though.
Last March I sowed 11 seeds of Nomocharis, described as 'Nomocharis mixed', from the last SRGC SeedEx, and have 10 germinated. Should I pot them on singly, or leave them in the seed pot for another year?
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You could pot your nomocharis seedlings on, en masse, David, to a bigger pot with a bit of bone meal, no need to be potting individually as far as BD is concerned!!
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Thanks Maggi, will do.
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OK Brian,
I was just curious since it is supposed to be quite tender but so many "impossible" plants have been surprisingly hardy these days.
I agre with Tony Avent (right??) who used to end all messages with:
"I regard all plants as hardy until I have killed them three times"
Göte.
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"I regard all plants as hardy until I have killed them three times"
I'll try my best not to do so! :D
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Re-sent message due to breakdown:
Paul,
Meconopsis, at least many of them cannot stand high temperatures.
I am not sure about the borderline temperature but if you get up to 30 C, at
least seedlings will die.
Göte
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I posted a response to Gote's message, but as I post directly onto the forum rather than via email I don't have a copy of it. Basically it was along the lines of the fact that 30'C is a coolish day for us in summer, but the seedlings never make it that far anyway, usually just starting to grow then dying off. Doesn't look like damping off to me, but no idea what it actually is that does them in. Maybe I am just sowing them wrong or something.
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I think that this is high temperature damage the seedling leaves turn greyish and die off
Göte