Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => NARCISSUS => Topic started by: Yann on September 10, 2018, 07:04:12 PM
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While our australian friends taunt us with their spring daffodils...our autumn species are also blooming ;D
The shy and shiny Narcissus serotinus.
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Yann, that's quite early! Congratulations!
Did you water to wake it up?
Gerd
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Lovely little thing, Yann. And the daffodil too. ;D
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Gerd i only watered my autumn crocuses and colchicum, the rest of the pots is dry as desert.
Temperatures are increasing for the next 2 weeks, inside plastic pots it can seriously heat the compost...too wet, you know how it usually ends :(
So i'll water may be by the end of the month.
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perfect form for this hybrid
Narcissus cavanillesii has started to bloom very early, i watered the pot thirsday.
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I've made a new thread for these delightful narcissus
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Good idea, more will follow in the next weeks ;D
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Good idea, more will follow in the next weeks ;D
- Yes! This is my first cavanillesii - a selected form with bigger bulbs and often two flowers/stem.
I hope this will continue next year.
Gerd
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2 stems per bulb, not common.
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Interesting little daff - would fool most gardeners (and me) I was lucky to obtain some bulbs this autumn, so look forward to try growing them. Meanwhile, I covet yours :D
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Thank you Ann & Yann!
This full splendour lasts only 2 days (of course due to the the recent temperatures).
@Yann: I am not sure that the two stems came from one bulb.
Gerd
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This is Narcissus cavanillesii var. mauretanicus in comparison to
N. cavanillesii from Spain (last pic).
The variety from Morocco is slightly larger and flowers more reliably than the other one.
Gerd
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Gerd that's interesting to show the difference. What can explain that?
Distance between Tanger's riffs and Tarifa is so short.
Those i saw in the cap Spartel has stems 2x bigger those i grow (Cadiz region).
Does the morrocan variety is a relic and the ones from Spain evolved over time once the actual spanish corner detached from Africa?
mauretanicus has elongated bulbs and 2n=28, it's not the case for spanish bulbs but forms in Cadiz region has also 2n=28
and others farthest north has 2n=14/21.
Michael Salmon published a doc http://dafflibrary.org/wp-content/uploads/Michael-Salmon-on-N.-cavanillesii.pdf (http://dafflibrary.org/wp-content/uploads/Michael-Salmon-on-N.-cavanillesii.pdf)
Since DNA analysis gave also 2n=28 for ssp humilis
Very confused
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Yann,
If I recall correctly it was stated that the origin of some autumn flowering daffodils (cavanillesii/serotinus/viridiflorus) was North Africa probably. Because of the more extensive distribution of these autumn flowerers there I don't guess that the Moroccan variety of cavavillenisii is a relic.
It seems that the Spanish/Portuguese populations are outliers of the African ones.
From a growers point of view it is clearly evident that var. mauritanicus flowers more reliably than var. humilis from Spain.
I received my first bulbs of the Moroccan variety from Ian Robertson in 2011 (a pot illustrated in the report of the Autumn South AGS Show 2010) and since then they always do better than all of the Spanish forms from different sites. Perhaps the future will show that a selection from El Palmar (shown here at September 18 th) will be an exception.
I would be glad if you let me know the reference for DNA analysis 2n=28 for ssp humilis.
Gerd
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https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs00606-008-0015-1.pdf
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Thank you Yann!
It seems I need to correct my remarks according the origin and distribution of Narcissus cavanillesii in North Africa and Spain. After I had a look at my collection of daffodils articles I noted
' Migrations from the Iberian Peninsula to northern Africa and coinciding with the Messinian salinity crisis and Pleiostocene glaciations are also observed in two other sections of the subgenus Narcissus. N. cavanillesii (section Tapeinanthus) is dated as having diverged from its Iberian ancestral lineage at c. 6.4 Ma, .....'
Santos-Gally, Pablo Vargas and Juan Arroyo (2012)
Insights into Neogene Mediterranean biogeography based on phylogenetic relationships of mountain and lowland lineages of Narcissus (Amaryllidaceae)
I guess I mixed up some information concerning a predominant distribution of autumn flowering daffodils in North Africa compared to Spain with a migration route.
Gerd
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So, between Salmon and Zonnveld, someone is wrong...
Salmon seems to be the only one to have found 2n = 14 or 21 as Marques also found only 2n=28 in all populations sampled (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3241596/#MCR282C32 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3241596/#MCR282C32) and https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1558-5646.2010.00983.x (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1558-5646.2010.00983.x)) and all references about chromosome count say 2n=28 for this species.
Bigger form of N. cavanillesii from Morocco may have been introgressed by N. elegans ?
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Yvain very interesting doc. I quickly read the study of Isabel Marques and conclusion is indeed 2n=28
[attachimg=1]
So as Gerd mentionned a possible migration of the morrocan population may explain the DNA?
And why the bulb is so different?
Gonna read in deep the Marques study...
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And why the bulb is so different?
I'm not familiar with this species. I grow it from Rafa's seeds but it still haven't flower...
Are you talking about M. Salmon assertion about the 2 subspecies, about Gerd's bulbs or about yours ?
With the mistake about chromosome count, I'm a bit reserved about the description of the 2 subspecies by M. Salmon. I really don't like this kind of description with no data, no statistics and there's a lot (really too much) of this kind of description in the narcissus's world :-\ He has noted that some populations have very different kind of bulbs but we don't know if there is a cline or if the same kind of bulbs have been noticed in several populations or anything else.
Can Gerd tell us from where are its moroccan bulbs if he nows it ? from Salmon's paper, var mauritanicus is only from southern Morocco, around Tanger and Tetouan, this is still var humilis.
Several populations from southern Morocco have been included in Marques et al. study. One has a special ribotype (R5 for Taforalt) but the 2 other one have the same R1 ribotype than the majority of the other cavanillesii. You can also notice than some populations of cavanillesii have individual that share the same ribotype with individual from the same place of N. miniatus (obsoletus), N. elegans or N. serotinus, which can be a sign of introgression (in a direction or the other...). This could be an explanation of the multiflower stem of some cavanillesii...
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Can Gerd tell us from where are its moroccan bulbs if he nows it ?
About the origin of these plants Ian Robertson wrote (Nov. 5th, 2014):
' With regard to where it originated, while I am not absolutely certain, I am almost sure that they came from a population south of Agadir which is the same as Mike Salmon's. I received mine from Dr Tom Norman about twenty years ago. '
- and additionally (Nov. 13 th, 2014):
... ' but I was trying to speak to Bob and Rannveig Wallis who have four clones of N. cavanillesii from John Blanchard and Tom Norman collections which all came from south Morocco. Bob thought that the flowers on mine were slightly larger than theirs but otherwise much the same. So I think it is a fairly safe assumption that mine came from one of the south Moroccan populations.'
A stem with two flowers is found occasionally in all of the Spanish populations of N. cavanillesii which I know.
Gerd
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This is a greenish coloured Narcissus obsoletus (miniatus) from El Palmar/Cadiz.
I guess the green tint comes from a hybridization event with participation of Narcissus viridiflorus long ago.
The last pic shows the difference to plain obsoletus.
Gerd
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Same (greenish) flower two days later!
Gerd
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1. Even some flowers of N. obsoletus from Crete show a different tint
2. - 4. A nice form of Narcissus serotinus s. str., the last pic shows the typical abruptly inflated tube
Gerd
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Next ones
A potful of Narcissus obsoletus (miniatus) - my best form, originally from Cadiz
and a slightly orange tinted specimen
Gerd
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I'm not familiar with this species. I grow it from Rafa's seeds but it still haven't flower...
It was ten days ago. Now, I'm proud and happy with 2 tiny flowers ;D
Grown from seeds sown 2,5 years ago !
Competition to be the tiniest autumn bulb is harsh : Acis rosea or Narcissus cavanillesii ?
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Very nice Ivain! Small but beautiful!
Did you notice if they close their flowers overnight? My plants are over and I forgot to look for this
phenomenon.
Gerd
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Only 2.5 years to see this nice flowers? damn mine bulbils should be boosted
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How did that happen? ??? My first ever flower on an autumn daffodil and it's in a pot labelled N. scaberulus! Any ID? Is there a key somewhere of autumn narcissi? The white ones do all look very similar to the beginner.
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Did you notice if they close their flowers overnight?
Here they are at 9:00 PM
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How did that happen? ??? My first ever flower on an autumn daffodil and it's in a pot labelled N. scaberulus! Any ID? Is there a key somewhere of autumn narcissi? The white ones do all look very similar to the beginner.
Anne, this is Narcissus obsoletus. I guess there isn't a key for all autumn flowering daffodils but if you have a look here you'll find most of them.
It is in Spanish but with some imagination and a dictionary it will be useful.
http://www.floraiberica.es/floraiberica/texto/imprenta/tomoXX/20_184_05_Narcissus.pdf (http://www.floraiberica.es/floraiberica/texto/imprenta/tomoXX/20_184_05_Narcissus.pdf)
Gerd
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Here they are at 9:00 PM
Thank you Yann - it seems they cannot close their tepals.
Gerd
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Thank you Yann - it seems they cannot close their tepals.
Gerd
Yvain...not Yann ;D, seems like all french firstnames begin with Y and are 4 letters long
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Sorry Ivain!
It seems my senior moments are increasing. >:(
Gerd
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Anne,
for further reading (in English)
Blanchard (1990) Narcissus - A Guide to Wild daffodils
and about the difficult matter Narcissus serotinus sensu lato(in a broad sense)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311775529_Narcissus_miniatus_Donnison-Morgan_Koopowitz_Zonneveld_sp_nov_a_new_species_of_Narcissus_Amaryllidaceae_from_southern_Spain (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311775529_Narcissus_miniatus_Donnison-Morgan_Koopowitz_Zonneveld_sp_nov_a_new_species_of_Narcissus_Amaryllidaceae_from_southern_Spain)
please note: Narcissus miniatus is now generally accepted as N. obsoletus
Gerd
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Yvain (with a Y ;)) is not a common forname, it's come from a TV series in the 60's "Thierry la Fronde" where there was Yvain, a knight. Yvain is the knight with the Lion, a novel wrote by Chrétien de Troyes around 1176.
Since I'm a kid, I'm used to hear of Yvan, Ivan, Sylvain and all other thing which sound a bit the same ;D
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please note: Narcissus miniatus is now generally accepted as N. obsoletus
I think that Rafa is now naming this one as Narcissus deficiens (see http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=15755.msg382522#msg382522 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=15755.msg382522#msg382522))
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I think that Rafa is now naming this one as Narcissus deficiens (see http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=15755.msg382522#msg382522 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=15755.msg382522#msg382522))
Yes, I know this. But after I noticed that even some Spanish botanists followed the naming as shown in the link below I tend to use obsoletus (after I preferred miniatus for a long time).
It is a pity that after the discovery of the fact that the long known species Narcissus serotinus contains of two species such a naming confusion arose.
Gerd
https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffalpha.pdf (https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffalpha.pdf)
obsoletus (Haworth) Steudel, Nomencl. Bot., ed. 2, 2: 182 (1841) (Narcissus) Section Serotini
deficiens Herbert, in Edwards's Bot. Reg. 33: t. 22 (1847) (Narcissus) = N. obsoletus
miniatus Donnison-Morgan, Koopowitz & Zonneveld, in Daffodils with Snowdrops & Tulips 2005-2006: 19 (Narcissus) = N. obsoletus
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This is Narcissus obsoletus from Sardina -
with thanks to Dirk!
Gerd
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These are some Narcissus hybrids of different parentage but of similar appearence
1. + 2. Narcissus x alentejanus (cavanillesii x serotinus s. str.)
3. Narcissus x perezlarae from Sevilla (cavanillesii x obsoletus)
4. + 5. Narcissus x perezlarae from Eastern Spain (Valencia) - said to be fertile and described
by Fernandez Casas as Narcissus piifontianus - with special thanks to Rafa
Gerd
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Lovely to see. You grow these very well Gerd.
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Lovely to see. You grow these very well Gerd.
You took the words from my mouth, Ashley! Gerd is a real master of these beauties.
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Narcissus x alleniae, on the right a gift from Gerd ;), on the left a split i got from a spanish friend
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You took the words from my mouth, Ashley! Gerd is a real master of these beauties.
Oh, Oh - too much honour! :-[ Nevertheless, thank you
Gerd
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Thank you Gerd. I must try harder with my Spanish! (I mean, thank you for identifying my welcome intruder). You are certainly a master!
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I think that Rafa is now naming this one as Narcissus deficiens (see http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=15755.msg382522#msg382522 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=15755.msg382522#msg382522))
Found today in Daffnet:
Harold Koopowitz, California
October 9, 2018
Note I use N. obsoletus as the correct name for N. elegans. Our paper on the name change was accepted and published in Phytotaxa.
Confusion perfect! I guess it is better now to add author names to the species name in order to prevent mistakes.
Gerd
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Here we go
This is
Narcissus elegans var. oxypetalus (Boissier) Maire, Cat. Pl. Maroc: 139 (1931)
a little bit leggy unfortunately
Gerd
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Found today in Daffnet:
Harold Koopowitz, California
October 9, 2018
Note I use N. obsoletus as the correct name for N. elegans. Our paper on the name change was accepted and published in Phytotaxa.
Confusion perfect! I guess it is better now to add author names to the species name in order to prevent mistakes.
Gerd
Thanks for the ref. You can read the paper here : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/314088340_Nomenclatural_notes_on_some_autumn_flowering_daffodils_Narcissus_Amaryllidaceae (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/314088340_Nomenclatural_notes_on_some_autumn_flowering_daffodils_Narcissus_Amaryllidaceae)
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Ivain,
Thank you too!
Gerd
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A few new ones are flowering now
1. + 2. Narcissus obsoletus(Haw.)Spach Steudel x tazetta
3. Narcissus viridiflorus
4. and its hybrid with obsoletus (Haw.)SpachSteudel
Gerd
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and
Narcissus obsoletus (Haw.)Spach Steudel from Cyprus
und a fine specimen with rounded petals (Spain)
Gerd
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I’ve really been enjoyimg your photos, Gerd and Yann - thank you! These are a whole new world for me, and I’ve never seen them in person. They’re beautiful!
Kelly
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Thank you for your kind remarks!
Gerd
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Nice collection of Autumn flowering narcissus, Gerd, impressive !
Here's for me just my second species flowering, a single flower of Narcissus serotinus but I hope more next year as it has been sown in march 2016 as Narcissus cavallinesii. As I have a third flower of cavalliesii, I will try to cross them even if I'm not a big fan of hybrid. Collecting and growing true species is already hard enough.
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Ivain, 2 years until first flowers is pretty quick - congratulations!
Gerd
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I sown serotinus (thx Rafa) in 2015 and the small bulbs gonna bloom in few days, it's really quick compare to other daffodils species.
Given the size of your clay pots Gerd, i can't image how many bulbs are inside to give these nice bouquets!
A shame the last days i missed several bloomings being back from work when it's dark >:(
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Given the size of your clay pots Gerd, i can't image how many bulbs are inside to give these nice bouquets!
Yann,
You can easily count the number of bulbs when you look at the photo.
Please bear in mind that I don't show all of my pots - some are less noteworthy.
Gerd
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Very nice and interesting photographs. It seems the autumn flowering Narcissus species would thrive in our part of California. My little seedlings have a long, long way to go! I can at least follow this thread and hopefully learn more about the various autumn species.
Thank you everyone for sharing. 8)
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I'm almost ashamed to show my autumn flowerers after Gerd's superb potfuls, but I need help with ID again..
I received a narcissus as N. elegans. One of the stems has 2 flowers. The leaves are wider than the one Gerd identified as obsoletus. The leaves are smooth when you run a finger along the back, whereas the N. obsoletus feels rough. The position of the anthers in the tube is the same in both. They smell different! The corona in the 'N. elegans' is darker and the perianth segments are mucronate.
First photos of 'obsoletus'
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Next is N. elegans? And last the 2 flowers side by side (elegans left, obsoletus right)
Hope you can sort them out for me ???
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Anne, I guess your plants were named correctly!
Narcissus elegans (Haw.) Spach has broader (than obsoletus) and glaucous leaves, which appear with the flowering stem. The corona is cup shaped, usually entire.
Narcissus obsoletus (Haworth) Steudel – corona 3 – 6 lobed, leaves dark green ,small, rarely present on flowering plants.
Gerd
- please note - I corrected the author names in my previous posts - confusion reached me too :(
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Narcissus cavanillesii, from Oron's seeds
and a new pot of x alleniae
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Narcissus x alleniae in different colours -
from nearly white to yellowish and greenish
Gerd
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Spectacular display - it may help that Hans Achilles lives in the Balearic Islands!
Hans A. :
"Narcissus x alleniae flowering in the garden today "
[attachimg=1]
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Just perfect ! Many thanks to Hans!
Gerc
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I'm almost ashamed to show my autumn flowerers after Gerd's superb potfuls, but I need help with ID again..
I received a narcissus as N. elegans. One of the stems has 2 flowers. The leaves are wider than the one Gerd identified as obsoletus. The leaves are smooth when you run a finger along the back, whereas the N. obsoletus feels rough. The position of the anthers in the tube is the same in both. They smell different! The corona in the 'N. elegans' is darker and the perianth segments are mucronate.
First photos of 'obsoletus'
There has been much discussion of the ID of such autumn flowering narcissus of Facebook, by the Spanish enthusiasts. There is still work to be done on these plant, clearly - but for now .....
This is an approximate translation to a post there by Rafa ....
"I think I have it clear, our colleague Carles Jiménez has been looking at these documents and bibliographical references these past few days. In conclusion the thing would remain like this
- N. obsoletus (the so-called N. elegans, from Sicily, Morocco, Libya, Tunisia, Malaga ..) It would be a robust plant with pure orange crowns in the shape of a cup, two flowering leaves, fluted, glaucous
- N. elegans, (which we have been calling Narcissus sp # of Algeria, Mallorca, Malta ...) less robust with cylindrical but short and lobed crowns, orange yellow, with two fluted flowering leaves, glaucous
- N. deficiens (called N. obsoletus by Flora Ibérica and N. miniatus) It is the most abundant and international species of the entire genus occupying many Mediterranean countries. Considered of hybrid origin between N. serotinus and N. obsoletus, it is a more graceful plant with much intra inter population variability. It may or may not have a leaf in green, smooth flowering, with crowns brown / orange, orange, orange / green, with segments, and different shapes.
- N. serotinus (Formentera, Northern Morocco, Spain and Portugal) Plant tiny, graceful, uniflora, without flowering leaf, lemon yellow crown.
I am lost, what is clear is that although the sp # of Mallorca, Algeria ... is well known, as well as the N. obsoletus, both have been in the same bag or one as a subspecies of the other, when they are clearly two different species. I put a photo, well known for those who have not seen it, already with the names"
[attachimg=1]
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These have been in bud for a few days outside in the sun and finally opened. N. cantabricus ssp cantabricus var foliosus. You can see how long ago we sowed them.
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Narcissus miniatus, JJA 702.259
Turkey, Içel, E of Akdere. 185m. Open areas among Quercus coccifera scrub on limestone. R. & R. Wallis 08-122.
Hello :) I've just come back to the forum with this potful daffs ;)
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Beautifully grown Tatsuo 8)
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indeed, how many times a season do you feed them Tatsuo?
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I remembered about this photo from Fernando Ureña Plaza - about which he wrote :
" At the suggestion of our friend Juan Rios Pimentel, I show you this composition of comparative images between three species of autumn flowering. Several of the characters that discriminate among them are appreciated in the photos: the number of flowers for escape, the length of the pedicels, the morphology of the perigonial tube and the tepals, as well as the color and morphology of the crown. Other differences are the absence / presence of leaves in flowering, the smell (n. Serotinus doesn't smell) and the number of chromosomes."
[attachimg=1]
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Hi Maggi,
Thank you for all of the additional information. It is very useful for a newbie like me. :) 8)
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Hi Maggi,
Thank you for all of the additional information. It is very useful for a newbie like me. :) 8)
There's a lot of discussion in this Facebook, public group 'Narcissus' : https://www.facebook.com/groups/158509101289275/about/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/158509101289275/about/)
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Beautifully grown Tatsuo 8)
Thanks, Ashley :)
indeed, how many times a season do you feed them Tatsuo?
I usually feed them a slow release fertiliser, N-P-K=5-10-15, last for 50-60 days, 3 times during growing season.
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Narcissus viridiflorus, MS.500, Spain, Sancti Petri.
I really love its jade green flowers but pungent scent is too strong for me
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Update from Fernando Ureña Plaza......
"Detail of the crowns of n. Serotinus, n. Deficiens, n. Elegans and n. Obsoletus. We can observe that the morphological diversity of the crown is very big in the sevillian population of n. Deficiens, if we compare it with the other autumn species of white tepals.
* I thank Emilio Esteban-Infantes for the permission to include their photos of the algerian plants in comparative.*
[attachimg=1]
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Comparison of seeds of Nar. obsoletus and N. elegans from Rafa
[attachimg=1]
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I am lost, what is clear is that although the sp # of Mallorca, Algeria ... is well known, as well as the N. obsoletus, both have been in the same bag or one as a subspecies of the other, when they are clearly two different species. I put a photo, well known for those who have not seen it, already with the names"
If even Rafa is lost, how should we be ?
I'm very surprised of the name retained for the multiflorus leafy autumn flowering species.
About Narcisuss miniatus/deficiens/obsoletus : it seems quite clear that the name deficiens Herbert, 1847 has the priority and that miniatus is a synonym. Here is a link to the description : https://archive.org/details/mobot31753002748462/page/n63 (https://archive.org/details/mobot31753002748462/page/n63) I don't now why Koopowitz et al., 2017 discussed about the miniatus/obsoletus controversy and totaly ignored the name deficiens that was bring back by F Casa (2008)
About elegans/obsoletus : both name should be forgotten ! and shouldn't be used anymore as so many confusion appeared in the various papers ;D. At the beginning, there's two plates, one from Desfontaines (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6514977k/f173 (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6514977k/f173) with description of the species here https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6510373m/f309 (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6510373m/f309)) and one from Parkinson (https://archive.org/details/paradisiinsolepa00parkrich/page/88 (https://archive.org/details/paradisiinsolepa00parkrich/page/88)) who was inspired by other plate (see Koopowitz et al. 2017). For both plates, we have very few information as Desfontaines called it Narcissus serotinus, believing that it was only variation of this species, and Parkinson wrote that it has only 2 flowers (but did he see it ?). From these plates, Haworth described Narcissus elegans (read https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/15398#page/14/mode/1up (https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/15398#page/14/mode/1up) and second edition http://bibdigital.rjb.csic.es/ing/Libro.php?Libro=7195 (http://bibdigital.rjb.csic.es/ing/Libro.php?Libro=7195) page 19) and Narcissus obsoletus (https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/37886#page/163/mode/1up (https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/37886#page/163/mode/1up)) without seeing the plants but only the plates ! The description he made of Narcissus elegans don't fit Narcissus elegans/obsoletus (as we know it) as he only described the plate (with lots of 'elegantissimus' !). For the plate made by Parkinson, lots of authors wonder if it's a Narcissus deficiens with 2 flowers and leaves or if it's a elegans/obsoletus with only 2 flowers. Because of the poor quality of Parkinson's plate, the name Narcissus elegans remains for the multiflorus autumn daffodils.
If there's now two species of multiflorus autumn daffodils, it seems difficult to me to assign names based on old plates drawn from plants that we don't now where they came from. Reading the description of the 2 species made by Rafa, it's a bit odd that Narcissus elegans (illustrated by Desfontaine as a big 7-flowers plants) is assigned to the less robust and Narcissus obsoletus (which have only 2 flowers on Parkinson's plate) is assigned to the more robust. As there is no type of both species, it should be better to abandon both names or at least obsoletus as Narcissus elegans is widely used as the multiflorus autumn daffodil with orange corona. obsoletus has been so many time badly used that keeping this name for renaming what we know as N. elegans seems to me a really bad idea.
(Gay, 1850 is also an old interesting paper : http://bibdigital.rjb.csic.es/spa/Libro.php?Libro=2279, (http://bibdigital.rjb.csic.es/spa/Libro.php?Libro=2279,) page 80 to 91, in french)
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Dear friends,
Sorry for my long silence here.
Well, I think I am understanding this complex. This is my theory
I think we have 3 parents and 2 similar species
Description of the parents:
- 2 leaves when blooms, fluted, with strips, glaucous or green. Robust plant, stem with strips glaucous. 1-21 (+?) flowers per stem, normally 8. Pure orange corona liek a cup, with the margin close, wide tepals -------> N. obsoletus
Distribution: at leastSpain, Morocco, Sicilly, Libia, Tunisia (?)
In my drawing you can see Mediterranean elements and Atlantic elements, this is because I consider the ecology is fundamental to understand the plants. So, for example you can see more localities of N. serotinus in Spain, Portugal and Morocco,
- 2 leaves when blooms, fluted, with strips, glaucous. Slender plant, stem with strips glaucous. 1-8 (+?) flowers per stem, normally 2. Yellow-orange corona, like a narrow ring, lobulate margin and open, narrow tepals---> N. elegans
Distribution: at least Algeria, Balearic Island, Malta.
- Without leaf when blooms, glaucous stem without strips. Tiny and slender species, uniflower (with genetical exceptions, rarely 2), citron yellow corone with segments, perianth tube like a bottle with segments Yellow/green.----> N. serotinus
Distribution: Portugal, Spain and Morocco. I am sure it is possible to find N. serotinus hidden in N. deficiens and N. miniatus localities, this is the case of Formentera.
N. obsoletus x N. serotinus---> N. miniatus
N. elegans x N. serotinus-----> N. deficiens
In my drawing you can see Mediterranean elements and Atlantic elements, this is because I consider the ecology is fundamental to understand the plants. So, for example you can see more and bigger localities of N. serotinus in Spain, Portugal and Morocco, and once it goes to the Mediterranean, seems to be marginal.
So finally I am thinking in support N. miniatus, but not because N. deficiens has short corona, one leaf when blooms etc... these are not valid characters because it is the normal variability, as they have an hybrid origin they have a range corone types, thay can have (or not) ONE, leaf when blooms... I am thinking in support N. miniatus, because there are N. elegans, N. serotinus in Balearic Islands so the hybrid (as Mediterranen enlement) must be the same like in Greece. Also in Malta there are the fertile hybrid with one parent. So, it must be another N. deficiens like, in countries that contain N. obsoletus and N. serotius or at least one of the parents together with the hybrid. This is the case of Morocco, where they are greowing all together, or in Sevilla that you can find N. serotinus together with N. miniatus.
Is necessary to say that in the speciation proccess of an hybrid in Narcissus genus, the hybrid normaly replace the ecological role of one or both parents. The most interesting case apart N. deficiens and N. miniatus, is N. piifontianus (fertile N. x perez-larae)
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Hi Rafa, thanks for this long explanation. At least, I can understand your point of view even if I'm not agree on several points.
First of all, I have also to admit that I don't have any field experience about these species. I can only speak through publication, picture on the web...
I take some time to read some different papers, old and recent ones. At the beginning, I was a bit upset by the choice of the name elegans and obsoletus for this new couple because it seems to me very ambiguous and not very relevant. I try to understad why it was chosen like this and why it cause some problems. I also try to understand your speciation theory and try to find proof (or not ;))
About the names. The use of obsoletus is confusing because it has be used to name two different taxonomic entities. In last 10 years, the same Parkinson's plate is used as the type for Narcissus deficiens/miniatus (Diaz Lifante & Andes Camacho, 2007; Aedo, 2010) and for the commonly named N. elegans (Fernandez Casas & Pizarro Dominguez, 2007; Koopovitz et al, 2017). Now, you use again elegans but name an other taxonomic entity.
Back to the protologue of obsoletus and elegans, Haworth 1819 and 1831. Both have stalk with severals flower and leaves when flowering, but the holotype of obsoletus (Parkinson's illustration) is said to grow in Spain and elegans (Desfontaine's illustration) is said to grow in Algeria. So the choice : the one who grow in Spain should be named obsoletus and the one from eastern mediterranean, elegans.
The problem comes for me from the rest of the description from the protologue. Obsoletus is said to have only 2 flowers and a "exigua obsoleta lutescente" (narrow reduce and yellowish) corona which fit more with the description of "your" elegans. In the other hand, elegans is said to have 1-7 flowers by stalk, and a corona "minuta integra" (small and entire, not lobed), which fits, for me, more with "your" obsoletus (number of flower, shape of the corona). The description of obsoletus with only two flowers and a yellow corona (see Haworth 1831) even lead to the typification of Narcissus miniatus/deficiens with the Parkinson's illustration.
Indeed, it's quite difficult to know what Parkinson have illustrated copied because, with no doubt, its illustration is a copy of Rabel's illustration (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1511032x/f53.item (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1511032x/f53.item)), which is nearly a copy of Valet's illustration (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8612033t/f73.item (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8612033t/f73.item)) as Koopovitz et al., 207 have already shown. From the description of Parkinson, it's possible that he has grown it as he has grown Narcissus viridiflorus but, he gave very little information. The description of the leaves is like the description of the illustration and don't fit with the thin leaves of any of the autumn daffodils. But he described the color of the corona as he has seen it : the cup is small and round, like unto the cup or crown of the least Rufh Daffodil (Narcissus assoanus?) (which fit with "your" obsoletus), of yellow color at the bottom but toward the edge of a dune or sullen color (which is not a pure orange and fit with "your" elegans). He wrote that it comes from Spain but didn't say if it was rare or common or anything else. From the illustration and description of Parkinson, Haworth made an mix, describing the illustration (which, I repaet, is a copy of prvous illustrations) and mixing some of the element of the description.
At the end, I really have no certitude about which species have been described by Haworth and Parkinson
About Desfontaine's illustration, it's a bit easier. Desfontaine was thinking that the same species could have one or more flower by stalk and only one species was known at the moment. Its illustration is an autumn daffodil with 7 florets and he wrote that the plant was growing in Algeria. There's few useful information about the corona of the multiflower individual as he was thinking to describe only one species, Narcissus serotinus.
This long analysis lead to me to 2 possibilities :
-using obsoletus and elegans as Rafa but the "new" species don't fit the protologue of their names on several points and, even more, they fit to the protologue of the other species which is very confusing. In this case, maybe the definition of an epitype (see article 9.9 of the ICBN https://www.iapt-taxon.org/nomen/pages/main/art_9.html (https://www.iapt-taxon.org/nomen/pages/main/art_9.html)) would be useful
-using obsoletus for the eastern species because it fits the protologue of obsletus and it has the priority but I found no names for the spanish/moroccan species since, at least, elegans , oxypetalus and cupanianus are typified by algerian or sicilian individuals !
(about the speciation in a few days ;) )
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I think Desfontaines was mistaken and what he was actually discribing as N. serotinus was N. elegans. So if the plant in this herabrium sheet with narrow tepals is N. elegans, the other species with whide tepals and two leaves when blooms, is N. obsoletus. Number of flowers is not a valid character.
Diaz Lifante & Andes Camacho, 2007; Aedo, 2010 are completely wrong in my opinion.
There are two similar plants in my opinion
1. N. elegans
http://mediaphoto.mnhn.fr/media/1443467552047lamVn3XxNXUes2UF (http://mediaphoto.mnhn.fr/media/1443467552047lamVn3XxNXUes2UF)
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2. N. obsoletus
No mater how many times it was copied, the drawing in my opinion represents this plant
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Rafa, you have the chance to be able to choose the right pictures ;)
No problem about Desfontaines.
About Parkinson, even if the number of flower is not a good character, Parkinson said no more than 2 flowers and the corona is said to be yellowish, not orange. This description is also used by Haworth. We can argue a long time about what Parkinson has drawing, with the quality of the illustration, the character that don't fit only one taxon, the absence of details of the provenace (yes, he said it came from Spain) of the plants, it will difficult to be sure of what he draw (that's my opinion ;D)
But we will not give a definitive answer to this question here (or on Facebook), only a publication with peer review or a proposal analysed by the ICBN Board would be a reference that everybody can use.
I would also like to have a valid publication showing without doubt that there is more than 3 species. Pictures of extreme may be clear but I would like to know what goes in the middle. For the moment, genetically, there's no proof of any differenciation between eastern and western 'elegans' populations, nore between eastern and western miniatus/deficiens populations and the subspecies statut would maybe be more adapted.
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I agree It is difficoult place N. obsoletus, but for sure, Desfontaines it is clear to me, and Parkinson's plate really looks like the pure orange corone from Malaga, the only problem is that there is just one place knonw in Spain (peninsula) for this species, and there are few places in Spain (Balearic Islands) for the other species. If we have two different drawings and two diferent species, to me is more simple to associate Parkinson's plate to the orange coronaplant, as N. elegans is perfectly described by Desfontaines in his drawing, and there is not a third autumn species with two leaves and round corona. N. deficiens/miniatus, never have two leaves in bloom, if you find it, is because in the same tunic they are vegetative divisions too younger to develop the stem, and they use to develop the leaf. Also it has always segmented corona in different shapes sizes and colorus.
Morphologically I think it's imposible to make differences between N. miniatus and N. deficiens, so I think it is more practical to consider N. deficiens as the closest plant to N. elegans, and N. miniatus the plant as closest N. oboletus. This is because In Mediterranean countries the plant that I call N. obosletus, is isolated without contact with N. serotinus and the descendant. But in this Mediterranean countries you can find what I call N. elegans together with the descendant (N. deficiens, was described in Greece) and also there are hidden N. serotinus.
The only place that I know where N. obsoletus is in contact with N. serotinus and the descendant is Morocco.
For example If we found in Peninsula Iberica, N. obsoletus together with N. deficiens/miniatus, it would be logical to think it is N. miniatus, instead N. deficiens. And the same with N. elgans. And this is applicable to many cases in Narcissus.
I think it is neccesary to make DNA test and Alkaloid trace in:
N. elegans from Mallorca
N. obsoletus from Morocco
N. deficiens from Mallorca
N. miniatus from Morocco.
I think is not necessary to describe or invent any other name, the plants have been well known for centuries so concerning names N. elegans is clear to me and N. obsoletus, it is easier to use, to make the differences between both plants, it has been know for a very long time.
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N. viridiflorus
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N. viridiflorus
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N. serotinus
second picture N. x alentejanus
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Superb photos of these gems in nature, Rafa!
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Superb photos of these gems in nature, Rafa!
Indeed - especially from the serotinus population with hybrids near Morón!
Gerd
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Thanks Rafa for this nice interlude in our boring discussion ;D
What are the yellow flowers with serotinus, Ranunculus sp. ?
If you go back for collecting seeds of Narcissus viridiflorus, please, take also seeds of Acis autumnalis ;)
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Back to the boring taxonomic discussion ;D
I agree It is difficoult place N. obsoletus, but for sure, Desfontaines it is clear to me, and Parkinson's plate really looks like the pure orange corone from Malaga, the only problem is that there is just one place knonw in Spain (peninsula) for this species, and there are few places in Spain (Balearic Islands) for the other species.
And the pure orange corone population from Malaga is only nown since 2007. Fernandez-casas and Pizarro-Dminguez (2007) didn't mention any historical herbarium sheet of this species in Spain (peninsula) before 2007. From Balearic Island, the only sample is from 1935.
The nomenclatural dilemna is also part of the taxonomic problem. The use of the names elegans and obsoletus results from the supposedly fourth white autumn flowering daffodil. I say "supposedly" because if I agree that there are some morphological differences between eastern and western populations, I need more proof of the species statu.
At least 2 DNA and karyological analysis have already been managed.
Karyology :
western and eastern populations have the same number of chromosomes : 20 (Diaz Lifante et al. 2007). For the sicilian population, they infer the species from the karyotype but the species and the karyotype has been confirmed by Kamari et al. (2013).
DNA :
Even if that was not the aim of the publication Marques et al. have done a phylogenetical study of these species. As it was not the aim of the publication, the sample protocol from the eastern populations is not optimized but it gives some useful information.
First paper and most useful is Marques et al. 2010 with a organella and nuclear DNA study of Narcissus cavalinesii, elegans, miniatus/deficiens and serotinus. The sample include 2 eastern populations of N. elegans (from Sicily and Sardegna), 3 of miniatus/deficiens (one from Greece, one from Sicily, one from Sardegna), and 3 of serotinus ! (from Malta, Crete and Ionian Islands !), and several western populations from all species. (Marques et al, 2017 use the same samples than in 2010 so I won't talk about this paper)
I feel a bit embarrassed that there's no more information about some of the sampled population and/or there is some mistake :
- it was the first time that a Sardinian population of N. elegans is formely sampled (even if the presence of N. elegans appear on several maps, it is not reported on this Island by Kamari et al. 2013) but this sample is located in Sicily in Marques et al. 2017 !
- the sicilian population from Narcissus elegans comes from the botanical garden of Lisboa and it has some strange behaviour (I suspect that it doesn't come from Sicily)
- this is, as far as I know, the first published coherent localisation of Narcissus serotinus out of southern Spain and Morocco (I say coherent as the karytype is reported to be 10 and at least the maltese population has a serotinus haplotype).
Haplotypes (DNA from organella) are separated in 3 main groups : Cavanilesii, Miniatus-Elegans and Serotinus. This supposed that the miniatus species came mainly from crosses with elegans as the mother. There are some oddities as 4 populations of elegans are in the cavanillesii groups : Sicilian (in fact from BG of Lisboa...), 2 moroccan and the one from Malaga. Elegans populations from Majorca have some pecularities but inside the miniatus-elegans group. The sardinian population of elegans is with the other elegans-miniatus populations. The eastern populations of miniatus are with the other populations of miniatus (n east/mest distinction). The 2 greek 'serotinus' populations are also in the miniatus-elegans group haplotypes but have some quit distincts ones.
Ribotypes (DNA from nucleus) : the tree published is even much more difficult to describe and analyse. Its quite funny as lots of sympatric populations groups together even if they are from different species. Even elegans and cavallisnesii seems to exchange some genes. Sardinian population of elegans is closes to the other populations of this species, the sicilian one is quite isolated (but see previous remarks about this population). Several elegans populations are indide the cavalinesii main branch but these are only moroccan populations. miniatus ribotypes are difficult to analysed since this species is quite dispersed in the tree (multiple hybridisation events ? retrocrossing ?...). Part of the sicilian population is isolated in the main cavalinesii branch, the other part of the sicilian population and the sardinian one is withe the maajorcan and spanish populations inside the serotinus branch. So, still no east/west distinction. (note that the 3 eastern serotinus populations are grouped together inside the serotinus branch...)
From these studies, it comes that eastern and western elegans population have the same karyotype, so they should hybridise nearly freely when they meet (between Morocco and Algeria). DNA studies show no differenciation of the studied eastern elegans and miniatus/deficiens populations from the western populations. That why I think that it's better to use a subspecies level inside the elegans species and to gather the eastern and western populations of minitaus/deficiens under the same species.
I would keep elegans because there's no confusion about what Desfontaine has drawn. And I would drop obsoletus because it's too confusing, as it's difficult to know what Parkinson has reproduced and the name has been typified and used in several Flora (at least Flora iberica and Flora gallica) for Narcissus miniatus/deficiens, writing the synonymy would be terrible.
Sorry for all the people that don't like long writing and don't care about the names..
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Sorry for all the people that don't like long writing and don't care about the names..
Well, those people need not read it! Many like to learn things - thank goodness.
It is valuable to have these discussions here where they can be found and read by all ! 8)
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OK, it's not a 'special one' but the first this season from my ever decreasing range of Narcissus.
Narcissus 'Nylon Group'
[attachimg=1]
......and a close up of the flower
[attachimg=2]
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Back to the boring taxonomic discussion ;D
From these studies, it comes that eastern and western elegans population have the same karyotype, so they should hybridise nearly freely when they meet (between Morocco and Algeria). DNA studies show no differenciation of the studied eastern elegans and miniatus/deficiens populations from the western populations. That why I think that it's better to use a subspecies level inside the elegans species and to gather the eastern and western populations of minitaus/deficiens under the same species.
I would keep elegans because there's no confusion about what Desfontaine has drawn. And I would drop obsoletus because it's too confusing, as it's difficult to know what Parkinson has reproduced and the name has been typified and used in several Flora (at least Flora iberica and Flora gallica) for Narcissus miniatus/deficiens, writing the synonymy would be terrible.
Sorry for all the people that don't like long writing and don't care about the names..
I've found something interesting for those interested by DNA and boring for the others ;D
The allopolyploid origin of Narcissus obsoletus : https://ufile.io/xrflw
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Hoop season has just started today here :) :) :)
Narcissus romieuxii subsp. albidus var. zaianicus, as “N. zaianicus var. albus, MS.168 Morocco, Zaian Mts, Taztot.” on Monocot Seeds' list and “N. zaianicus var. albus, MS.168” in Mike Salmon's newest book "A Survey Of The Genus NARCISSUS".
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The name albidus is a very old name used for other species. None of the name given by M. Salmon are recognized because they don't fullfilled the ICBN (see yhe botanical names in the genus Narcissus (https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffalpha.pdf) by RHS)
If you want to use a simplier name, use Narcissus peroccidentalis Fern. Casas, 1996, it is now quite recognized. IMHO, a subspecies of cantabricus should be enough but I've been already a bit long with taxonomy ::)
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Thank you for your advice and the url link to the newest version of botanical name list , Kabara :)
I think the name on seed list (even if it was wrong) is as important as the accepted botanical name and should write both names on this forum. It makes easier to recognise them to readers.
The name albidus is a very old name used for other species. None of the name given by M. Salmon are recognized because they don't fullfilled the ICBN (see yhe botanical names in the genus Narcissus (https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffalpha.pdf) by RHS)
If you want to use a simplier name, use Narcissus peroccidentalis Fern. Casas, 1996, it is now quite recognized. IMHO, a subspecies of cantabricus should be enough but I've been already a bit long with taxonomy ::)
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i've heard a new classification is discussed among scientifics :) So be ready to change your labels once again
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i've heard a new classification is discussed among scientifics :) So be ready to change your labels once again
Yes, that's the point, Yann ;D