Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Crocus => Topic started by: art600 on January 01, 2007, 05:24:22 PM
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Happy New Year to everyone
The warm weather has not been good for eliminating aphids. On checking crocus in my cold frames I found a number covered with greenfly.
I know the answer is not to have aphids, but as I have them, is there a safe insecticide I can use? Would a soap solution be better?
Appreciate your advice
Arthur
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Arthur, happy new year to you as well.
A couple of producers market what they label as an organic insecticide and these are available from most garden centers etc. This what we have used for the past few years with good effect. I am slightly sceptical of the 'organic' labelling as the product is designed to kill the little buggers, however we try to garden as organically as possible and have made the decission to go along with the story. Personally I never found a soap solution to to have much more effect than to spoil the taste of the sap ::).
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David
As they work, could you please tell me the manufacturer or product name.
Arthur
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Arthur,
I have to admit that under glass and in the frames I will use a systemic insecticide, Provado is one of the few available. As I remember the active ingredients that are available to home gardeners are Imidichloprid and Bifenthryn.
I you only have a small number of crocus or narcissus then you can rub the green fly between finger and thumb and that is organic as you can get.
However there are always more lurking just below the surface so that is why I use a systemic.
In the open garden I let nature make the balance sometimes I assist with a jet of water to wash the bugs off .
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Ian
Thank you for the info.
My finger and thumb worked well, but I, like you, suspect there are some still lurking beneath the surface.
Will start with PROVADO tomorrow.
Arthur
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When I read your request yesterday, Arthur, it was dark, cold & wet outside so rather than a trip to the potting shed I stayed by the fire with my glass of wine! Having checked this morning the two products I have on the shelf are:
Phostrogen - Rose & Flower Organic Insecticide
B&Q - Organic Insecticide
Neither carry the Soil Association seal of approval but the B&Q product is recognised by HDRA. Both seem to work and I only use them as required.
Hope you get to read this before you set out to buy the Provado!
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David
Thanks for the extra info.
I already have Provado, so might do a trial using Provado and the B &Q product.
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Hi,
Has anyone got an opinion of which insecticide is safest for the gardener?
I'm thinking about the reports one often sees in the papers about gardeners being at a greater long term risk to some neurological problems - it is assumed due to their use of insecticides.
David Pilling
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That is one of our reasons for using organic, David.
Used properly, all chemical passed for garden use 'should' be safe, they are much less strong than the equivalents used in horticulture and agriculture.
Knowing the broad base of knowledge of our forum members I am sure that some one will come up with a web site that wil answere your query more directly.
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There is an alternative to soap and water that is "soap" oil and water. The oil is rapeseed oil but can be any vegetabile oil. This is quite usefull and have been tested also for outdoor use on rasberry field in Sweden.
I have heard that orchid people has it in there greenhouses.
Many used to disolve Provado sticks in warm water and water the orchids with it. When I did that I used very warm water and I inhailed the fume that came frome the disoled sticks. Later that day I got really dissy but I am not sure it was the effect of the insectiside, it could have been a virus of some sort.
One need to be very restrictive vehn sprayingand make sure to use appropriate protection even if the spray comes from a can and not a outdoor machine. I think it seems to be a lot of chemicals (insectisides, fungicides etc) used here rather than trying other things.
That is my oppinion and I try not to bee so fast in using them. Then I do not grow that valuable plants and try to kill what needs to be killed with other meens. It is not only what the gardeners get it is also what the garden gets that counts. The gardeners are not a small user of the pesticides. Many creeks become a big river so to say.
Hope I did not offend anyone by this.
Kind regards
Joakim Balogh
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Joakim, do not worry about offending forum members when trying to move them away from using garden chemicals. We all have thick skins.I occaisionally have a rant on this topic but I suppose my friends just put it down to me practicing being a grumpy old man >:(.
You are quite correct in comparing the use of small amounts of chemicals in many gardens with many creeks making a big river. In Scotland we would say 'many a mickle maks a muckle'.
The chemicals get washed down through the soil into groundwater which is the source of our rivers and water supplies. It does not just disappear.
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Joakin and David make good points and civil discussion of views is healthy should never cause offence.
You should always follow the instructions on the product you are using and never use it or adapt it in any other way.
You should also be very aware of the harm these substances can cause to the environment and use them very sparingly.
I too am extremely environmentally aware and of course worried about the effects to my own health.
So I would like to qualify how I use the systemic insecticides I mention above.
One mix to fill my lance sprayer requires 5mml of the insecticide, I use the finest spray that I can select and pass quickly over the new emerging leaves so that they are coated with the finest mist of liquid. At the most I go through 4 mixes, some years only 2, in a year that is a max of 20mml of the insecticide and as it is systemic and drawn into the bulbs system and hence into the aphids very little is not used up.
I always wear disposable plastic gloves and a mask when necessary to avoid any contact or inhalation of the mist.
The biggest threat from the aphids is not that they will suck some sap from the bulbs but that they can be the vector that spreads virus to and through my collection and they must not be allowed to build up.
The contact and biological controls are fine but do not tackle the aphids that attack the stems and leaves just below the soil. By spraying early as the new growths emerge I can prevent any build up of aphids from occurring which would require using a great deal more of the harmful chemicals and the effect is active for at least 6 to 8 weeks.
My first rule is always be vigilant and keep a constant watch for any signs of aphids and if you see any rub them out with finger and thumb.
With a large collection like ours that has taken years to build up I have no guilt at all in the tiny amount of harmful and toxic chemicals that I use to defend and preserve it. I reakon that my life times use of insecticide will cause far less harm to the environment than that caused by the production and eventual disposal of the PC that I am using to post this message.
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Thanks Ian for Your nice explanation on how You use the pesticide.
If may say so this way is not the picture I got from Your superb bulb log.
I had the feeling You were running with the spray can much more. Maybe You can mension the above explanation in Your log as well, since not all the readers is reading the forum.
Safety is not easy and disposable gloves work for protection for seconds (maximum) if You spill! Take new ones imediately. The best mouth protection is a gasmask and not the paper ones. Maybe You are doing this already, then it is just a reminder to every one else.
These safety things are a small price to pay for the health!!
Kind regards
Joakim
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As it happens Joakim, I just found some aphids in one of the bulb houses and so I will raise this whole issue in next weeks log. As you say better safe than sorry and I will explain exactly how I use the insecticide.
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Latex gloves are cheap, less than five pounds per 100. I presume they're impermeable to the chemicals.
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LATEX GLOVES ARE ONLY INPERMEABLE FOR WATER! NOT CHEMICHALS!
Sorry for the big letters :)
Most chemichals penerate the latex glove in secondc and then You have that against Your skin. So throw the glove imdediately if You get something on them. Gloves that are impermiable to chemicals have a layer of aluminium and are expensive as h*ll. The latex gloves give You the second needed to take it of and hence protect nothing more. Maybe they protect from dirt but not more so use a lot of gloves if You spill a lot.
Ian
I think that is good Ian to inform since if one does not know You there might be a risk of misunderstanding. I hope You take it as feedback rather than critisism since it is only meant as such.
Kind regards
Joakim
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Latex gloves: okay if one is not allergic to latex, of course!
Joakim: I very much welcome your feedback: that is exactly what theses pages are here for.
From what you have said I realise how my words might be confusing, you have raised a very good point.
I hope the next bulb log will make things more clear, how one mix will last me for a long time, I use very sparingly, etc.
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Ian it is often the power they use in the latex gloves that is a problem. There are powder free for 50% higher cost and there are other disposable gloves at the price 100 for 5£. So there should be something for everyone :)
Kind regards
Joakim
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>LATEX GLOVES ARE ONLY INPERMEABLE FOR WATER! NOT CHEMICHALS!
Is there any negotiating over this? Apparently water and air don't pass through latex. The medical profession use them as protection against blood.
So which chemicals, how much goes through and how fast.
On the other hand it is interesting to observe how some things will seep out of plastic bags.
Presumably one should fill a glove and see how long the contents take to vanish - and no, I'm not about to carry out this experiment.
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David with chemicals I mean possible pesticides that are at least partly fat-soluble if I remeber correctly and the fat soluble goes through latex. If the pesticides are water soluble then the gloves might work. Often the manufacturer use water as a solvent but uses tricks to get the pesticides in the solution even though they are fat-soluble. Then the pesticide can go trough but not the water.
Blood is thicker than water but it is mostly water and therfor latex gloves works.
Your experiment would work but sometimes the pestcide is in low, but efficient levels, so one can not see them penetrate the glove.
I will not perform the test either.
There might be pesticides that are water soluble and against them the latex glove work but I would never take that chans my self just take a new glove.
Joakim
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didnt see this thread so my input is - I use rose clear that has a scent added to let you know when the mist is entering the nose
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Yesterday I found a Daphne retusa that was covered in both greenfly and whitefly, and these were dropping on to some Erythroniums below the Daphne, too. :P Shock Horror! :o
I cleaned off as many of the greenfly on the daphne buds as I could by squishing in the time honoured fashion with finger and thumb but that still left quite a few, and the whitefly....I decided to resort to the remedy of soapy water douches...... about six watering cans full later, both daphne and erythroniums were looking much better and today they are none the worse and the bugs are gone.
DO NOT use soapy water on Shortias, though, the flowers will fall off! I discovered that many years ago when I gave what I thought was a gentle rinse of water and fairy liquid ( a proprietary washing up product) to a super pot of a shortia the day before a show... because I was worried that a commercial pesticide might damage it... and all the flowers dropped off, practically before my eyes! Yikes! :-[ I don't always get it right and that was a real corker of a mistake! :'(
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Maggi - you beat me to it. I was going to open a discussion on aphids! The current balmy (barmy) weather seems to have begun a rapid breeding program here which threatens to become a plague >:(
WHERE do they come from??? Like you I am finding them on garden plants as well as under glass. Are there particular host plants that we should avioid? (Did I read somewhere that ivy is a host?)
I know that ants have a friendly relationship with aphids - and my light soil is ant paradise. Should I be on an ant purge, likely to be impossible I guess!!
Any ideas, suggestions welcome. I'm sure some of the bug buffs will have info.
On the soapy water front - how much fairy liquid per watering can? Does it kill them or simply wash them off?
(Can you tell that I'm getting desperate? ;) - Its just that I am simply not here enough to go and squash all the little blighters by hand!)
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I have heard that a cigaret butt in the water (maybe with detergent and alcohol) does the job very well.
The nicotine is bad for the buggs but not the plant.
I just tested it and can not say if it works. I do not think that the plants take up the nicotine so one needs to hit the bugs or get it into the soil.
It is also very education to show kids how dangerous ciraretts are. The later was a tipp from the person that wrote about using cigarett buds in the water. I myself believe that a bit of alcohol helps getting out more nicotine out of thee tobaco so I added that and some fary since I already tested that remedy agianst afids and the black small mositos whos larviae eat bulbs. They really made a mess of many of my crocus. :'( :'( :'( :'(
The best bug to get is the ladybird (little red with black dots) often called "key girl" or something like that.
Both that and their offspring eats the aphids. In February Sweden was infeted with them and I hope they stay there to fight the aphids.
Here in Portugal I have not found many so I am tempted to offer a reward to my nices if they find some for me. I would have the bugs in the glassed veranda eating the aphids.
Good luck hunting
Joakim
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Over Easter I sprayed one of my climbing roses with Rose Clear. Everything wiped out. Blue Tits and Coal Tits werent eating enough. Watching the birds today they were back in the rose. It's heaving again!
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On the soapy water front - how much fairy liquid per watering can? Does it kill them or simply wash them off?
Just a small squirt, as for basin of not very greasy washing up! How I love my scientific approach, the BD would collapse ! I think it kills the whitefly, maybe not all the greenfly, but if you apply enough, I think the soap breaks the surface tension and I hope they drown!!
I've heard of nicotine in water, too. No cigs about here, so I don't know if that works or not.
Just a though , Martin, about Ivy harbouring aphids.... should you be speaking severely to IVI ? ;D :D ::)
Edit: lost the place here, it was Tony who was commenting and I mistook him for Martin, whose wife is Ivi!! :-\ I get worse! M
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Maggi no cigs around here either but would it not be a nice excuse to go to a coffee house and have a cake and then take a few cigaret butts home for scientific testing. ::)
Maggi I strongly belive in the squirt as a scientific measurement and use it myself. 8) Sometimes more successfull than others ::)
Joakim
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No cig buts in coffee shops in Scotland, Joakim... smoking is banned in public places! I would need to collect them from the street gutters!
And long live the squirt !! How is your handsome son? [attach=1] [attach=2]
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Tony I am not sure if the Aphids are in your Alpine houses or in the garden but many years ago I visited Simon Bond to get some Alpines and he had 3 or 4 Pinguicula on the benches and said they kept them Aphid free.I had not tried it until this year I got one from Ann at Mendle and at the moment it seems to be working(touch wood)
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Maggi
My handsome son is sleeping. ::)
He was out with daddy to buy plants an then later plant them as well as inspecting the eucalyptus in grandfathers differnt forrest patches.
All that and a bit playing with the cat and at the playground in good weather make a boy a bit tired.
In Sweden it is the same with no smoking in resturants and I love it. In Portugal You can smoke everywhere unless it is stated You can not :-X. I had the feeling that the Scotts do quite a bit of smoking so I thought You would have someone that is hooked in the neighberhood.
The squirt gun gets even more effective with nicotine, I think. 8) I will inspect tomorrow.
Still have not found any ladybug to do my work of killing aphids for me. Son time to issue that reward ;D
Kind regards
Joakim
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I have checked the results with the mix of water, alcohol, detergent and a cigaret butt sparyed with a simple spray flask against aphids, white fly and mini mosquitos (smaller than fruit flies) that has larvie that eats bulbs.
This was sprayed on crocus tulips magnolia and hibiscus.
Non of the plant seemed to be harmed and the aphids and the white fly died, but the mini mosquitos survived :(
Joakim