Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Pleione and Orchidaceae => Topic started by: Maren on January 11, 2017, 10:38:29 AM
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Hi and Happy New Year !!!
It's so lovely to start the year with a little bowl of cheerful pleiones, P. Tsingtau (praecox x humilis). The closeup shows very clearly the humilis parentage in the lip markings. This was a bowl that sat forgotten behind a lot of other things, grown slightly warmer with my P. praecox and Barcena. It has not been repotted for a year or so, but benefitted from the feeding regime. Just see the size of the bulbs and there are about 5 flowers per bulb.
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Congratulations Maren. Your small bowls of Pleiones are simply beautiful. A little ahead of time?
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Happy New Year to you too Maren. What a great start 8)
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Five flowers to a bulb is a great new year's gift, Maren!
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What a wonderful Pleione Maren! Congratulations! :)
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The winter weather has not delayed important deliveries. Just one example of the super quality pseudobulbs that arrived today from Maren. Thank you!
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Hi all,
I received today plenty of Pleiones from Maren and the past week from R. Kretz. I'll be soon able to show you my blooms of Pleiones. There is Pleione Eiger which have big developped bulbs, it will be very early this year!
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Hello,
I just potted Pleione Eiger "Leslie Frank" which will be very early this year, I think that the bloom will open in two weeks so at the very beginning of Februrary!
Jules
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Knock, knock. Who's there? It's me - the Spring :D
K.
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I was expecting it and... it's a failure :(
I recently received a P. Sirena (1st time I try that hybrid) and I noticed the bud was already well into growth, so I potted it and put it in the mini greenhouse (for humidity) in my kitchen.
[attach=1]
Well, the bud grew as expected, started to open and then... just stopped there, and already looks as if it was worn out (only 3 days in this state, the picture angle makes it looks a lot more open than it really is).
[attach=2]
The petals seems almost translucent with pink veins, and thinnish without any real texture (almost like cigarette paper infused with oil), and the lip is starting gowing brown and kinda wet/waxy. Were the plant outside, I would have assumed that the bud froze except that there is no way it froze in my kitchen...
[attach=3]
And the 2nd buds is showng signs of drying :(
Did anyone encounter something similar, and what might be the cause?
19°C day / 15°C night
66% humidity
(which always satisfied my other pleiones in the past)
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I think the damage might have been done before you received the bulb. I do wonder why some people leave it so late to send out early flowering bulbs such as Eiger and humilis, but I do not think it has been frozen. The only time that I have experienced frozen buds was when my heating could not cope with -17 and the greenhouse got down to -7. The only damage was to some forrestii where the well developed flowers turned brown. I do think your conditions seem unnecessarily hot and humid for Pleiones. They are so much tougher than people give them credit for and I think that they do better when grown "hard".
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Hi Julien,
I have to agree with Steve, your temperature is too hot for humilis and hybrids with P. humilis as parent. I assume the buds developed in more colder condition during dormancy, so the plat has now temperature shock.
You should keep them in temperature around 8 or 10 °C.
I think next year will be everything OK.
K.
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I do agree they don't need that warm and humid, it's rather a space issue considering I do not have a greenhouse anymore, it's either outside (-10 right now) or indoors (never colder than 18 during the day), and then indoors it is much too dry (30%) relatively to the temperature (hence the mini greenhouse, but there the humidity is never below 60%).
Other pleiones usually did well in that setup though (in the past I was transferring them outside to the cold greenhouse only after flowering)
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Julien, do you have a windowsill where it could go? The temperature of the air trapped between the glass and a curtain on the inside is often lower than the overall room temperature. A friend of mine managed to coax better blooms from their plants this way.
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Unfortunately (or rather fortunately for my energy bill...) it's an energy efficient place, triple glass window with PVC frame so the temperature behind the window is not lower than the rest of the room (even higher in daylight with the slight greenhouse effect between the window and the curtain) :(
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Does anyone who has some expertise in, or knowledge of the naming of pleiones help me?
There are several steps to this question, so please be patient!
For this question I will use Pleione Leda as my example.
Q1: if someone recreates a hybrid e.g. Leda, from parents identical to the original cross, can the newly created cross still be named Leda?
Q2: Leda is Pln. Krakatoa x Pln. grandiflora
Krakatoa is Pln. yunnanensis x Pln. forrestii
natural hybrid Pln. x christianii is also Pln. yunnanensis x Pln. forrestii
So, if Pln. x christianii is crossed with Pln. grandiflora, does this mean that these hybrids can also be called Leda?
Q3: If a reverse cross of Leda is made (Pln. grandiflora x Pln. Krakatoa) is this still Leda?
I ask these questions because I have real hybrid pleiones that make me ask these sorts of questions.
Any one able to help - I'd really like to know!
Thanks - John
Oh.... and here is my first pleione of 2017
[attachimg=1]
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Hello John,
Q1 : Yes, the cross can be remake with identical parents, it will keep the same name.
Q2 : I'm not 100% sure on that one, but I don't think so, the main reason behind the different naming for natural hybrids and their man-made counterpart is that in the case of natural hybrids, we are not sure of the lineage or at least not sure of the number of backcrosses there are... So logically, using a natural hybrid as a parent instead of a man-made one (and reverse) would not necessarily be the same.
Q3 : The reverse cross has the same name
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Hi John,
That are very interesting thoughts.
Q1. If you will re-make the existing cross you should use already existing valid name. However there are several exceptions here, eg. P. Confirmation = P. Lagenaria (not P. x lagenaria), P. El Pico = P. Marcel Lecoufle). These names are registered as synonyms.
Q2. By valid orchid nomenclature the cross between man-made hybrids is different than cross between natural crossings. That is why the plants can have different names and they are not synonyms.
Q3. The reverse cross holds the same name as Julien's already written.
K.
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Thanks to all who have either posted on this forum or contacted me directly.
Your replies are precise and thoughtful.... and easy for me to understand.
Highly useful to others too in the future I'd imagine.
John
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Pleione humilis
[attach=1] [attach=2]
[attach=3] [attach=4]
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I was doing a talk last night and at the end I was approached by someone who presented me with the sickest pleione bulbs I have ever seen. Almost woody, covered in scars / scabs. I had no idea what caused the damage, which is where you fine people come in. Slug damage, massive brevipalpus infestation, a virus actually manifesting, cultural? Please help! I suggested that the bulbs be destroyed, but as the buds looked alright-ish the owner reckoned not. All I could do then was suggest serious quarantining.
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Difficult to say Steve, could be brevipalpus or a fungal infection of some kind in autumn if the medium was too wet when the plants entered in dormancy.
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Photos are not too good I know, taken on a very very old mobile in quite poor light.
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I know it has already been mentionned (by Paul if I recall) but I can't find on which thread it was, so I'm going to ask again...
I know pleione pollinies can be frozen to keep them several months before making a cross, but how long can they be kept in the fridge without freezing?
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Steve, 10 years ago I had very similar problem. During winter (the bulbs were harvested clean and stored in paper bags) appeared on surface of P. limprichtii something like cork crust (see the picture). So I destroyed all affected bulbs and use fungicide for the others. The next year I used fungicide immediately after harvesting. The problem disappeared. Unfortunately, I don't know which fungus caused this problem :(
K.
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Thanks Karel. Cork crust sums it up perfectly.
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I agree, it's some fungal infection usually brought on when the bulbs are too wet in autumn. If that happens to me, I throw away the bulb because I don't want it to infect my collection. Quarantine? perhaps but it would have to be in another room. Fungal spores can travel on the lightest air movement. I also spray my bulbs with fungicide once or twice when in storage. It helps.
If the crust is away from the flower bud, it is possible to shave off the affected area right back to the healthy green of the bulb. This has to be done with a very sharp and clean knife. Then the bulb needs to be covered in sulphur dust or cinnamon and left to dry for a week before potting.
It's a lot of bother and doesn't always work. I follow the principle: if in doubt? Out!!
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Julien, I store mine for approximately 2 years in refrigerator. However they must be completely dry.
K.
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The stupid thing is that I think the bulbs were garden centre Tongariro, just not worth the hassle in my opinion, but the guy in question wanted to keep them. I even offered to replace them with three of mine, I have hundreds of this hybrid, but he declined.
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Steve,
it was nice of you to offer him replacements. Some people just can't be helped. It doesn't stop us trying though. ;) ;)
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I usually wind up throwing some Tongariro away every year. There's only so many that you can sell on eBay and my attempt at growing them outside in a bed failed completely, the slugs thought that it was Christmas. Anyone know a recipe for pleione jam?
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Hi Steve,
I believe the bulbs are used in Chinese medicine... Another sales opportunity?
Tim DH
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Hi Steve,
Tim is right. Here is photo from one Chinese market. They are very good against sore throat ;D
K.
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Wow! Very long-necked bulbs, what species is that? Is it humilis?
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Alex : much too pink for humilis I think.
Karel, thanks for the answer
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Yeah, it's not really quite like humilis but I don't know which other species have a neck like that. I think the pink color reflects the bulbs being covered or underground usually? So it's environmental rather than a feature of the species as such.
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It‘s probably bulbocodioides. I bought bulbocodioides( sometimes mixed with forrestii alba),yunnanensis and × barbarae in a local market. These bulbs are sold for medical use. Yunnanese buy the bulbs and pickled them with honey to treat cough and someone who tried this told me it's fairly effective.
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The pictures really don't do them justice... Pleione Piton 'Ballerina
[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]
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Nice Piton, Julien. Mine are not showing any signs of pushing through yet. Everything seems very late this year. Strangely enough I have a pot of Wharfdale 'Pine Warbler' in flower now.
A picture below, with an artistic effort to capture them in water colours.
When they finished flowering I might try adding them to my Chinese mushroom stir-fry.....or maybe not ;D
Pleione Wharfdale 'Pine Warbler'
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Odd to see wharfdale in flower so late, perhaps they went into dormancy late too?
Nicely rendered anyway.
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Julien your Ballerina photo looks wonderful - I spend an age waiting for the correct natural light to accurately show the pleione flowers' features. Even then, I find that with some of the purples/magentas it's just impossible to get the right hue, sometimes coming out too blue. I abandon automatic settings when photos look wrong, then I try and try with all kinds of white balance settings, perhaps getting close to true colour accuracy, then bring out the next pleione and it's all wrong again. It's not much use trying software afterwards either; I find that when correcting I may get the 'target colour' correct, but another colour is now wrong. i have an aging 'bridge' camera Lumix DMC-FZ28 which I am generally still very happy with... but not with some of my pleione shots.
It's too expensive buying multiple digital cameras to see which is best, but if anyone has an opinion out of their pleione/orchid experience I'd be glad to listen as I will be buying soon.
I greatly admire the photos taken by Steve Garvie (elsewhere and many places on this forum). I wonder what tips he may have?
Ballerina will be flowering for me for the first time this year so I have something to look forward to!
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John, I actually "cheat" by not using only natural light: I always have natural light (northern exposition) coming from the left, and 2 weak artificial lights, one coming from above-left (warm white) and the other from below-left (cold white)
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A first flowering of a forrestii-predominant Langur (ex-Paul Cumbleton). I like it, and thought I'd show it (iPhone pic notwithstanding) as it's rather different to those on Paul's website.
Cheers,
Alex
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So... what do you think?
This one is new to me. The photo I'm familiar with (Koolplants) shows nice yunnanensis traits, (which is what I was hoping for) [attach=1][attach=2]but mine is much pinker and closer to saxicola I think.
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Lovely plants all.
Here the first are Kohala and Sirena. Eiger and P. forrestii clones will probably be next.
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Lovely Ashley- your Sirena is strongly humilis and less forrestii, but lovely red markings. I've been growing some from bulbils and 2 have reached probable flowering size this year so you've given me something to look forward to.
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I have been discussing Sirena elsewhere with Erf, the question being has anyone ever seen a Sirena clone which wasn't all humilis and no forrestii in appearance? Any thoughts out there?
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Re: Sirena with forrestii traits.
No - haven't personally seem one, but Paul's site pleione.info shows a bowlful with forrestii stamping its influence on some of the blooms. http://www.pleione.info/pleione-hybrids-gallery-s.html (http://www.pleione.info/pleione-hybrids-gallery-s.html)
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So it does John!
So the next question is why those forrestiiesque clones are not widely available? Every photo of Sirena posted by hobbyists seems to be very humilisesque.
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Steve - if my Sirena does have the faintest glow of yellow, I'll post, but I don't expect it will!
Now - changing the subject...
Greetings everyone. It's not usual that I buy when I'm not totally sure of what I'm getting but once more couldn't resist something once seen. The seller lists it as pleione vietmanense. Gunther Kleinhans, in the 2003 Pleione Review (an excellent series in its day), says that P. vietmanensis is a species close to P. reichenbachiana - and looking at the photo I can see why.
Elsewhere (P.C. : pleione.info) I read that :
1) P. vietmanensis is 'a distinct species related to P. praecox' (Cribb) ... also that ...
2) P. reichenbachiana,'is just a variant of P. praecox'. (Cribb) ... but ...
3) Torelli regards this variant (P. vietmanensis) as sufficiently distinct to warrant varietal status and calls it P. praecox var. reichenbachiana. ... BUT ...
4) The World Checklist (1999?) regards P. vietnamensis as a valid name. So there you have it! Dead easy...
So what I'm asking is:
A) From the picture, is this P. vietmanensis, do you think? (The picture is the sellers' and I acknowledge their copy-write, but it is poor resolution. The photo of the the pseudo-bulb looks praecox-like.
Then it follows, if it is P. vietmanensis, then:
B) What is the current thinking on accepted species naming? - P. reichenbachiana ... or ... P. praecox var. reichenbachiana ... - ... P. vietmanensis ... or ... P. praecox var. vietmanensis. I don't expect an avalanche of opinions on this one!
[attachimg=1]
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Oh... and for those who do grow it, do you grow P. vietmanensis (or whatever it's called) winter warm (more than 10c) or winter cool? Do you grow it in a bark rich or moss rich medium. Thanks.
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John,
there is no doubt that P. vietnamensis Averianov & Cribb (1995) is the valid name. The problem can be with its identification. In last years were appeared in the trade, mainly in Germany sellers, who offer this species. Nobody is able to tell you the locality of mother plant. Some of them just tell you that their plants originate from Vietnam or they are from seeds collected in Vietnam.
For example, here is the answer from Popow: "thanks for mail i got the plants from a friend in vietnam buz no specific provinz ore area known best regards boscha" - Believe or not believe ;)
As you write P. vietnamensis is very similar to P. praecox var. reichenbachiana and I've already seen several P. praecox var. reichenbachiana offered as P. vietnamensis. So you must be very careful and always compared your plant with Averianov's description.
Your picture is very poor quality for identification.
K.
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Thank you Karel - I understand all your points. I also worry about buying from European orchid suppliers. I assume that they are legitimate and professional. Perhaps I am naive. ??? The truth ... could it be that this may be fueling the collection of wild stock? I hope not. I certainly don't want to encourage that. I also wonder if CITES rules are being circumvented.
I will examine the plant and flower very carefully next winter to establish identification.
I should have been more cautious. The name P. vietnamense doesn't exist, does it? :-X
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The name P. vietnamense doesn't exist, does it? :-X
You are right John, P. vietnamense doesn't valid.
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The case of this species really puzzles me to tell the truth.
A german orchid nursery list something under the name "Pleione maculata var.: Vietnamense" ...
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Julien - This doesn't make complete sense to me but it's extracted from ipni.org
Original cited type Original remarks
20004966-1 1.2 Orchidaceae. Pleione vietnamensis spec.
Aver. & P.J.Cribb
Gen. Pleione, ed. 2 46. 1999 Gen. Pleione, ed. 2 N 46 1999 1999 Vietnam tax. nov. 0 0 0 0 0 0 VT 882 N.T.Hiep; H.Averyanov Kontum Prov., Ngoc Linh Mts, borders of Kontum and Quangnam Danang Provinces, 2000-2200m 0 0 0 0 0 0 coll. Feb. 1995, fl. in cult. St Petersburg Nov. 1995 holotype LE ,isotype K
I found it as a result of Karel's pointers.
At least it has useful information about where it was growing, elevation and where a specimen in cultivation was described (I presume) John
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I just noticed the spelling variation in my reference.
Averyanov not Averianov
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Hi John, the "vietnamensis" commercially available from some German nurseries doesn't seem to differ in flower from that of the plant I grow as Pln. Praecox var.reichenbachiana.
Here is an image of a "vietnamensis" I bought from Popow orchids in 2015:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5779/30451426720_f226e3b0d4_o_d.jpg)
Here is my Pln. praecox var. reichenbachiana for comparison:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5720/30635248042_a610cf922b_o_d.jpg)
I know nothing of orchid taxonomy but I struggle to accept that the plant I grow as var. reichenbachiana is simply a variant of praecox.
As regards culture I grow my plants in warm winter conditions similar to Pln. maculata. I find that new roots want to grow whilst the plant is still flowering but these new roots are prone to rotting in overly damp substrates so a predominantly bark-based mix is best.
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First - Steve, what gorgeous plants (and, as ever, fabulous photography - I do hope I can ask some photography questions at some other time).
To add to this discussion I have been doing some research tonight on the naming of P. vietnamensis. I found what appear to be original sketches and identification notes. I'm a bit confused because I believe Pleione vietnamensis was named in 1995 but these sketches are dated 1999. (I found the files at Kew via some route I now can't find again!)
I have transcribed the handwriting which may be of help - especially to non-British readers.
Ignorance of how such work is done stops me from commenting on the sketches themselves - I dare say they serve to quickly co-illustrate the notes rather than be an accurate rendering of the look of the flower.
I do find them interesting to illustrate how the science is done - I hope it is of interest to others.
[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]
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Steve
Look again at your Popov supplied Pln. vietmanensis and compare with the Cribb sketch and description.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
You can see that - as in the description for vietnamensis - your photograph shows TWO rows of hairs (one each side of the mid-line). So this makes it truly Pln. vietnamensis... Karel? ... Do you agree?
Have you photographs of the lip of your Pln. Praecox var.reichenbachiana to see if it has 4 rows?
Obviously, I started this thread because I didn't know how to identify this species. Interesting, I've realised, how it's possible (with thanks to Karels pointers) to discover original scientific material that helps deepen our own expertise!
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Not Pln. praecox var. reichenbachiana (obviously) but an 'ordinary' praecox of mine from this year which I now see has 2 rows of 'hairs' each side of the mid-line.. don't know why you wouldn't call this 5 rows rather than 4 though! But serves to differentiate Pln. praecox from Pln. vietmanensis.
[attachimg=1]
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We might have different way to count, but I count 3 on the vietnamensis picture and 5 on the praecox (the middle row is still a row of hairs...)
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I agree with you Julien! The original description specifies 2 rows of hairs... but I don't see how it's possible to have an even number at all when the mid-line has hairs. Or am I 'just splitting hairs'? ;)
(A British idiom, Julien)
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Hi John,
you aren't splitting hairs ;), however as I already wrote the lip of P. vietnamensis can have 2 or 3 rows of haired lamellae. Here is my plant and you can see there are just 2 rows. On Steve's picture are 3 rows (or 2 and 1/2 ;D). The main point is, that P. praecox has 5 rows. Not 2, not 3, not 2,5.
And one thing more, because I'm not sure about origin of my plant I labelled it as P. aff. vietnamensis.
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Karel... Hooray! 2 rows ... at last! Just like in the original drawing! And your term 'aff.' ='affinis' ... Yes, I just looked it up to understand. Another slice of taxonomic learning for me. ::)
Do you do name it 'aff.' because you feel that to be confident in naming it as the true species, it MUST be traceable to that province in Vietnam where the Ngoc Linh Mountains are, where it was originally described?
(Always assuming that the species grows in this area only, and nowhere else, I suppose???)
Making a serious point. As I try to understand more, I wonder (as others have before) how wide the morphological variation can be in a plant and it still be given the species name. (How long is a piece of string I suppose).
Thanks for the photo Karel - a highly useful reference. I'll be interested to hear from Steve G. about his Pln. praecox var. reichenbachiana, (a case for Sherlock Holmes) which presumably will have 5 rows of hairs as you so clearly re-iterate! :) John
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichenbach_Falls
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Pleione cuxius is one of my earliest to flower this Spring.
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Not one I know, Luc - very pretty, clean flowers.
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He's fairly "new" Maggi and he's new to my collection. It's a cross between P. albiflora and P. forrestii two beauties in their own right. :D
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Hello Luc - you may already know this - Pln. Cuxius is a 'remake' (by Paul Cumbleton reg. 2010) of the natural hybrid Pln. x confusa.
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Thanks John !
Some more flowering now :
Good old Pleione Zeus Weinstein, but this is the recross by Jan Moors.
Pleione eiger 'To Ah'
Pleione Glacier Peak - Clone 1
Pleione Glacier Peak - Clone 2
Pleione Lhasa 'Blushes'
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I really like your Eiger 'To ah' Luc - I dont have that clone. The name 'To ah' is odd. Do you know its origin? I know there's a 'To be' as well - also odd to my ears!
Here's one new to me this year. It's Lucey, but its a re-cross. It has a nice tall stem. I can see both humilis and yunnanensis in it. The bud was slightly creased so the petals have a bit of a kink in them, sadly. Still, I like it!
[attachimg=1]
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I really like your Eiger 'To ah' Luc - I dont have that clone. The name 'To ah' is odd. Do you know its origin? I know there's a 'To be' as well - also odd to my ears!
Yes John, there is a story about these Eigers.
They are all crosses from the late Jan Berg from Holland who used Formosana alba to make the recross which resulted in more white based Eigers.
He named three : To Ah - To Be and To See - a little joke of his, in fact the explanation is they were clones A - B and C :D
He is also responsible for the hybrids Riah Shan - Liz Shan - Jan Shan... etc...
Shan being Chinese for mountain, mountain = Berg in Dutch....
His wife's name was Ria Berg , hence Riah Shan (adding the H at the end of Riah to give it a more exotic touch)...
He was a man full of humour and a great hybridizer.
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Thanks Luc - now it makes sense! I already knew about the Shan name... what a great personality he must have been. A sad loss.
Oh, and Riah Shan has got to be one of my favourites.
The first two started flowering this year during the 3rd week in February - they faded this week after almost 4 weeks. I still have some just coming into growth, so they will provide a display for 2 months!
I don't know any others that have such an extended / staggered flowering period.
[attach=1]
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I really like Riah Shan, John, but sadly I don't grow it. Tried to get it for years but always lost ebay auctions and then gave up, refusing to pay silly money for bulbils.. It seemed a bit calmer on ebay this past season, with more reasonable end prices- but I have not been that involved, so it might be nonsense.
A new flower to me, Pleione Macaque. In the picture for comparison Pleione Wharfedale 'Pine Warbler' , which has been in flower for at least 4 weeks now. Is it typical for Macaque to be so small?
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Ebay... calm? ! Well Bart, the reverse turned out to be true. It's been pretty frantic actually, with prices for rarer bulbils running to very strong prices. Like you, I was going to give up, but waiting another year for desired hybrids that might never be acquired made me jump in and buy a few. And among the bulbils I got was Macaque 'Erratic'. So I have not grown this before, so cant talk from experience. Of course sometimes a new young small pseudo bulb might generate a smaller than usual flower, but as well as this, Macaque's parents, saxicola and forrestii, can often have small blooms, on short stems.
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I sold several pleione on eBay this year and have to admit to being embarrassed by the prices people paid, so much so that I kept giving them freebies. I'll never make a businessman. ;D
As for Macaque I would have expected small flowers. I am more surprised to see Wharfedale Pine Warbler in flower this late in the year. Mine are long since finished. Different growing so conditions I suppose.
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Yes interesting what you can pay for bulbils. when I first stated my collection I was forever hunting for Pleione I didn't have yet and got completely hooked on the process of bidding. But this is 10 years ago, then I discovered the off_line retailers and the benefits of starting with flowering sized bulbs. I kept an eye on eBay though and religiously put a bid on varieties that were uncommon and was indeed shocked at the winning bids and never got in....
Pleione Wharfdale ' Pine Warbler' is a bit of a mystery to me. I have a pot of them that flowered in November, but did really badly, I think I got 1 flower. Then I saw these buds emerging in another pot and thought that it was an Eiger, only to find out it was Wharfdale. I am stumped, didn't know I had 2pots of them. They got really neglected for 2 years, all of my collection really, due to building work and loss of 'habitat', and only this spring have I had the chance to look at them. Interestingly what has survived has done really well! So Wharfdale will stay potted and kept in an unheatedngreeenhouse next winter too😀
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Some from today, iPhone camera I'm afraid but pics seem OK anyway.
P. Bonobo
P. Ascension
P. Angwatibo
P. grandiflora yellow form
P. Suswa 'Sand Plover'
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....and P. x confusa
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Pleione Sirena
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All utterly lovely to see. Alex - I found Ascension and Angwatibo to be particularly attractive. I have both, but have yet to see either flower. I am particularly surprised by how colourful Angwatibo is. Parent Pln. Adams is richly coloured with orange tones but the pale mauve of Aurita isn't showing much. I hope my Angwatibo is as beautiful!
Until I see it flower (perhaps later this year) I have others to enjoy such as...
[attach=1]
and
[attach=2]
and finally forrestii.
This has a story behind it. A COLD story...
I am not happy to say that I have grown and lost many forrestii over the years (or the flower buds have browned and withered). This winter I kept them at 5c in a fridge until the buds started to swell in early February.
I potted up in humid bark and woodmoss and put them outside in the shade during the day, then in the shed at night. (I wanted to avoid sudden warming in the greenhouse). Then, one afternoon, I forgot to return them to the shed.
That night it rained heavily, soaked the moss, then froze. The next morning the mesh pots were solid! I returned them to the shed to thaw slowly but really had not much hope.
However the buds continued to develop and they all now look OK. This is the first to open - a pale yellow with quite a lot of white in it.
I do NOT recommend repeating this kind of treatment but am often surprised by how tough some pleiones can be (I had not previously believed I could include Pln. forrestii on the tough list!)
[attach=3]
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Oh Alex - and I forgot to heap praise on your Pln. Suswa 'Sand Plover'.
Your set up in your green house looks great too.
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John, you are very kind. I enjoy your pics very much too, and think that Dr. Mo Weatherhead you posted is an outstanding clone. The Angwatibo was bought last year as a selected clone from Paul Cumbleton's catalogue. The unselected ones I've had before have been a bit dreary, like a poor aurita. I hope you are lucky with yours...
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If my Angwatibo flowers this spring I'll post it and let you know! 'Dreary'... slightly unkind perhaps, but photos I've seen elsewhere... I now what you mean. I live in hope, mine are grown on from 3 small bulbs of unselected clones direct from P.C. - one looks possible to flower.
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Great series Alex - Angwantibo is :o :o - waiting for my Suswa "Sand Plover" to flower - looking good !
A thrilling and chilling story John ! P. forrestii remains full of surprises. :D
Pleione red colobus and Pleione fancy pants (funny name if you ask me, but I like the flower !) in flower right now.
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Yes, Fancy Pants, silly name but excellent flower!
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Fancy - certainly, Pants, never! ;D
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Pleione Krakatoa 'Wheatear'
one week ago (day 1)
[attach=1]
and today (day 7)
[attach=2]
The whole flower was a really pale yellow with a few lavender pencil lines, then the colors became more vivid, with a rich yellow lip and much more lavender in the petals and sepals. It also started exhibiting a strong perfume, mixture of primrose and lily of the valley.
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Great reference photographs - and a reminder to me to try the perfume.
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Hi John,
you aren't splitting hairs ;), however as I already wrote the lip of P. vietnamensis can have 2 or 3 rows of haired lamellae. Here is my plant and you can see there are just 2 rows. On Steve's picture are 3 rows (or 2 and 1/2 ;D). The main point is, that P. praecox has 5 rows. Not 2, not 3, not 2,5.
And one thing more, because I'm not sure about origin of my plant I labelled it as P. aff. vietnamensis.
Just caught up with this.
Here are some macro images of what I grow as Pleione praecox reichenbachiana, the plant I bought as "Pleione vietnamensis" and the plant I grow as Pleione praecox alba. All three have 3 rows of haired lamellae: one in the midline and one to each side. This would suggest that none of these plants are true Pleione praecox.
"Pleione praecox var.reichenbachiana":(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2867/32713222304_91cfb722a3_o_d.jpg)
"Pleione vietnamensis":
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2931/33173321100_4f033339b0_o_d.jpg)
"Pleione praecox alba":
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3753/33173320850_67b7f26695_o_d.jpg)
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Thank you very much Steve for sharing these high quality close-ups (which I hope you don't mind I'm archiving for reference!) I have 4 'vietnamensis - all new to me and were bought in leaf, not in flower, from two orchid suppliers in Germany, so I have not seen the flowers. Your photographs and Karel's instructions are explicit. Your final photograph is very beautiful, and you will now rename it... ???
Did you see my post with the original field sketches?
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Very interesting Steve !
Here's my pot of Pleione glacier peak at its peak ;D
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Wow! That is a wonderful display, Luc.
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That's beautiful Luc!
Full out now is
Pleione Macaque:
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A lovely pleione Bart and one of which I only have a few tiny bulbils.
On a photographic note, I find that some of the pleiones coloured in the purple/magenta/pink range of tones are extremely difficult to render accurately with my digital camera. (Often too blue even when taking control and setting the white balance manually) I also find that if I try to correct the colour balance afterwards with photo-editing software, the results often look false. Colours are either wrong or become more vibrant and articicial (like when you see impossible blues in a rose catalogue!)
Yesterday I photographed a pleione new to me. All the photos were too orange, too vibrant. Today, under bright but overcast skies the results were much more accurate and natural, even using automatic camera settings. Here it is:
[attachimg=1][attach=2]
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A beautiful pot of Pleione Luc!
Nice image of this attractive Pleione John.
Pleione forrestii
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2945/33400059882_61b9151923_o_d.jpg)
Pleione forrestii -a paler form.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3753/33400059702_c2396748dd_o_d.jpg)
Pleione forrestii: a semi-alba clone.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2922/33400059222_1c796b3cf9_o_d.jpg)
Pleione forrestii: two slightly different semi-alba clones.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3941/33400059482_efa1115909_o_d.jpg)
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Steve -
I had no idea that there was purple/lilac in any forrestii. What I also find interesting is the 'sulcus' (if that's the right word) in the leading edge of the lip on both types of the semi-alba types. Intriguing!
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These are two pleiones from the pots I let freeze solid. No harm done, it seems.
Pale form and buttercup yellow.
[attachimg=1]
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Grandifloras, looking... well, grand!
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
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Riah Shan - again - to illustrate what a great plant to have. The first blooms opened 2nd week in February, stayed open for up to 4 weeks. The original 3 bulbs I started with have given me this crowd, which have a very staggered flowering period. I have no others that have this spread of flowering times.
[attachimg=1]
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Nice images of these bonny grandiflora John. Mine are about 10 days behind yours.
Pleione humilis : purple-lipped form.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3852/33400059072_5340b4a773_o_d.jpg)
Pleione humilis
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2861/33400058852_cb7cbd1caf_b_d.jpg)
Pleione albiflora
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2900/33400058572_c453ef1054_o_d.jpg)
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That's a very crisp an poised looking albiflora Steve. Three lovely images!
This Sirena is from some bulbils/tiny bulbs I got last year. One small p-bulb has flowered this year. I have put it in front of a grandiflora to show it's Lilliputian charm. I'm pleased that some of the forrestii parentage is showing through.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
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Sort of a repost - but now the 2nd flower has opened it's quite nice to see how pale it starts off.
[attachimg=1]
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Been a lurker for a while but thought I would post now I finally have my first Pleione flower of the year!
Dr Mo Weatherhead 'Springwood':
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Hello Mark! Hope you know about the Aberdeen SRGC Group?
Next meeting on Tuesday ..... http://files.srgc.net/localgroups/AbdnRGCprog.pdf (http://files.srgc.net/localgroups/AbdnRGCprog.pdf)
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Hi Maggi! Thanks for the Aberdeen SRGC info. Unfortunately I'm away the next few days (visiting Ian Butterfield's nursery on Monday!), but will come along next month or failing that to the show at the Winter Gardens.
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OOh, a visit to Ian Butterfield's is a treat ! Pleased send him good wishes from the Scottish Rock Garden Club - too long since we saw him up here.
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Yeah, I'm looking forward to it although my bank balance is dreading it. I will pass on your good wishes to Ian.
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Unnamed Pleione - one of those potfuls from Garden Orchid flogged off at a reasonable price last year - poor flowering last year but looking good now.
Pleione Shantung 'Ducat' - I claim no skill or success in growing this one as it's new to me, so I have only potted it up and done nothing more - hope it increases well for me as a potful would be gorgeous.
Pleione formosana 'Rossini' - not too sure about the colour breaks.
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Hi Matt - it is of course tempting to pick up a bargain in what seems, at first sight, a good way to enlarge your stock - especially when just starting up. Once hooked on pleiones (as I now am) I'm afraid I just want to avoid the unnamed lots found at Anthura or similar, or the cheap mixed lots of mystery bulbs sometimes found on eBay. For me, it's just too frustrating to put in the care of growing, then not be able to extend the pleasure and deepen my understanding by looking at how the breeding parents contribute to the qualities of the resulting hybrid.
It took me a while to understand even, that even a named hybrid might look very different to another pleione of the same name (unless you get two plants of one named clone of that hybrid - such as your Pln. Shantung 'Ducat'). That alone makes it unreliable at best, but impossible probably, to confidently identify a mystery pleione.
Your 'Ducat' looks great though and is the original, much admired, easier to grow, yellow pleione hybrid (a delicate creamy yellow). Like you, I started with just one p-bulb which by last year, 2016, had at last bulked up to make a decent little crowd, so here's what you can look forward to!
[attachimg=1]
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Pleione 'Bald Eagle'
Pleione 'Bubs'
Pleione 'Purple Sandpiper'
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:o Wow! Wim! That Bubs looks fantastic! Oh dear, another one to want...
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Glacier Peak. Two flowers from one bulb and one of the flowers is 12 cm in diameter :)
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Here are a few that have opened this week:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
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My first hybrid, Tongariro, an old one but new to me!
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Can someone do an ID on this one for me? It's a lost label one. I think it's P.Rakata - I had just P.Rakata and I also had the clone Locking Stumps.
I'm hoping it's Locking Stumps.
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Hi Mark - to help you I post some pix I have of various Rakatas (I'll need two posts to do this).
- if the photo hasn't got my name on it, then may I herein acknowledge copywrite to the rightful owners.
Locking Stumps
[attach=1]
Redwing
[attach=2]
Skylark
[attach=3]
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Mark ... also Rakata...
Rock Dove
[attach=1]
Keith Rattray
[attach=2]
Shot Silk
[attach=3]
Excalibur
[attach=4]
Hope that helps you decide ! John
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John, thanks for this. I think it is Locking Stumps. I managed to find a photo from the "normal Rakata" - I think although the basic petal colour is I think a bit off in my picture (it's more salmon) above the biggest difference is in the lip - Locking Stumps has more yellow than the other one I had.
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Hi Mark - agreed, I think your first post is locking stumps, but I do actually prefer your unnamed clone.
I lost my Rakata LS years ago and now have only Shot Silk - which has been a bit weak, and Excalibur - which has been a better plant
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Pleione's of the past months.
Pleione 'Sirena'
Pleione humilis
Pleione 'Riah Shan'
Pleione 'Eiger'
Pleione 'Lhasa Blushes'
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Pleione Alishan 'Mother's Day'
Pleione 'Glacier Peak'
Pleione Rakata 'Redwing'
Pleione Rakata
Pleione yunnanensis
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Pleione formosana 'Snow Bunting'
Pleione 'Hekla'
Pleione Krakatoa 'Wheatear'
Pleione 'Salek'
Pleione 'Tongariro'
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Pleione chunii
Pleione formosana
Pleione 'Glacier Peak'
Pleione Ueli Wackernagel 'Pearl'
Pleione Volcanello 'Honey Buzzard'
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Two times Pleione grandiflora
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More Pleione grandiflora:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2809/33437747380_02797ebf5d_o_d.jpg)
And Pleione x confusa:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2921/33822822615_491d963c9d_o_d.jpg)
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Beautiful imagery (once more!) Steve. I really like this form of grandiflora. I have heard of, but not seen, a yellow form which presumably is more yellow than this one? This grandiflora lasts and lasts, are healthy and vigorous. The photo below is of the same form. I started with THREE good sized p-bulbs from Schreiner in Feb. 2014. The first 25% were open on the 15th March, this photo is from 30th, and none are yet fading. Very pleasing!
Do you Steve - or any others - have nominations for long flowering period hybrids?
I nominate Riah Shan, and Leda 'Golden Pipit'...
[attachimg=1]
The more all-white ones I also have, have not had quite the same lasting power - wonder why? They opened at the same time but have now all started to wilt and fade. Possible reasons - I can only guess. Perhaps the wild originals are from warmer and cooler regions / different altitudes, and even in North Yorkshire the last week has been bright and sunny and mild. My greenhouse - despite doors and windows open, has got quite hot.
[attach=2]
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Hello any HYBRIDISERS out there. I am taking the plunge (before I get any older) to try it myself - with the help of a laboratory. Because maculata is almost impossible to make a successful cross with, I have decided to try one its few hybrids - Riah Shan, which I also rate highly. Does anyone have any experience with Riah Shan - I'd like to know about failures as well as any successes. Finally does anyone have an image of the only Riah Shan hybrid I know of which is: Arndt Liebig by M.Müller. I have already pollinated Riah Shan this week with 14 different pollen parents. Although I am keeping the doors open in the greenhouse I have curtains made of netting to try to keep Mr Bumblebee out!
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
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Nice bee photos John.. I've never caught anything 'in the act', but I do get open pollinated pods.
Tim DH
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Pleione chunii with twin flowers
[attach=1][attach=2]
[attach=3][attach=4]
Those twin flowers are something of an oddity...
I have several pleiones with double flowers, but the 2nd bud is usually held on a short stem which branches from the 1st one, it's not the case here, they both spring out of the same bract (like if the bud during its formation had split in 2 parts which both evolved in full flower)
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Group picture
[attachimg=1]
From left to right:
* Pleione chunii
* Pleione Keith Rattray 'Kelty'
* Pleione aurita
* Pleione Mawenzi
[attachimg=2]
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Pleione 'Purple Sandpiper'
Pleione 'Red Grouse'
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Many pleiones new to me this year have been rather underwhelming. I suppose that we end up many times with a new pale-but-quite-nice pleione that looks almost identical to another old pale-but-quite-nice pleione.
I'd like to share this one though, which I feel very happy about - Pleione Io, Pln. chunii x Pln. bulbocodioides.
This is one pseudo bulb, with 3 flowers. I did not like the droopy petals and sepals when I first saw it, but now I do. It really has a different look I think.
[attachimg=1]
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John, it is so pale that it is invisible... you might want to attach the picture ;)
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Pleione Io
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Julien - Io has emerged from the dark side of Jupiter. ;D
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;)
I have a preference for Ganymede though
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The moon or the pleione?
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both
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Pln. Rakata Locking Stumps - feared lost, unexpectedly reappears!
[attachimg=1]
Partnering Rakata Shot Silk
[attachimg=2]
... and my favourite Rakata Excalibur
[attachimg=3]
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Pleione grandiflora -with pink lip markings.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2927/33892246372_df6c36b5af_o_d.jpg)
Pleione grandiflora -typical form.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2888/34008721106_cbcd6f7011_o_d.jpg)
Pleione yunnanensis
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2857/34008721216_6a675ff875_o_d.jpg)
Pleione scopulorum -a fairly tall early flowering form.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2906/33892246752_f00cd92132_o_d.jpg)
Pleione species -an unidentified Chinese species (or primary hybrid). ID suggestions welcomed.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2938/34008720536_0e6b7f0b52_o_d.jpg)
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Lovely photos Steve. That scopulorum is particularly gorgeous!
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Steve,
beautiful pictures as ever.
The lip in your unknown Pleione plant looks very much like grandiflora to me, the form tends to pleionoides. But the latter species always has wavy lamellae on the lip, so perhaps a chance natural hybrid?
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Steve,
beautiful pictures as ever.
The lip in your unknown Pleione plant looks very much like grandiflora to me, the form tends to pleionoides. But the latter species always has wavy lamellae on the lip, so perhaps a chance natural hybrid?
Thanks Herbert.
I think it must be a natural hybrid as you suggest. Paul Cumbleton felt that it is a hybrid involving aurita -possibly with pleionoides.
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Shame there is no AGS show at Harrogate these days… the date always seems to fall nicely for me.
Here are some out this morning:
P.Shantung ‘Ducat’, almost over here. This pan was hidden under some staging, hence the slightly crumpled petals!
P.Shantung ‘Natasha’, sister seeding to Ducat.
P.Ueli Wackernagel ‘Regal’. I’m no fan of over crowded pans, so I miss judged these bulbs… Fourteen flowers coming up! The other pans are just as bad!!!
P.Shepherd’s Warning ‘Mary B’. This year stretching to 110mm across.
P.Marco Polo ‘168.2’ Perhaps it’s time this one got named.
Tim DH
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vert nice Tim, I know the first two are your own raisings, are the others too?
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Hi Mark,
No!... Not my raisings.... all five of them Dad's work!!.... The only thing I've done is prove that the growing of these particular cultivars is idiot proof!!
Dad turns ninety next weekend, and is currently besotted with Daffs.... So, despite a VERY busy family weekend, he's hoping to squeeze in a visit to the Harlow Carr Show!
Tim DH
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Lovely plants everyone 8)
Shantung 'Natasha' is nice to see Tim. Is it a little pinker than 'Silver Anniversary'?
Here a few more:
Asama 'Red Grouse'
Bromo
Krakatoa
Kyoto
Marion Johnson 'Whinchat'
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Suswa 'Golden Eagle'
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Hi Mark,
No!... Not my raisings.... all five of them Dad's work!!.... The only thing I've done is prove that the growing of these particular cultivars is idiot proof!!
Dad turns ninety next weekend, and is currently besotted with Daffs.... So, despite a VERY busy family weekend, he's hoping to squeeze in a visit to the Harlow Carr Show!
Tim DH
Tim, please send your Dad the very best wishes of Ian and I for a very happy birthday!
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Hi Mark,
No!... Not my raisings.... all five of them Dad's work!!.... The only thing I've done is prove that the growing of these particular cultivars is idiot proof!!
Dad turns ninety next weekend, and is currently besotted with Daffs.... So, despite a VERY busy family weekend, he's hoping to squeeze in a visit to the Harlow Carr Show!
Tim DH
Gosh now that makes me feel old. I remember I seeing your father when the Shantungs first appeared at the AGS shows. Wish him a happy birthday from me also.
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Hi Ashley,
I'm a little bit confused about 'Silver Anniversary'... When I took over Dad's collection it included 'Silver Wedding' (Seedling No. R6.34) which is/was a 'white' Shantung. Given the similarities in name and colouring, without a seedling number for Silver Anniversary, I can't be sure if they are different.
Anyway, the 85 cultivars I got 'dumped' (!) on me included six Shantungs and, in an (on going) attempt to make the collection more manageable I've whittled that down to three Shantungs. Silver Wedding got dropped because it is a pale pink, rather than a clean white. Natasha is a better pink, and, as often is the way, a better pink than the photos tend to show. It's not quite as vigourous/robust as 'Ducat', but does better than 'Muriel Harberd', the third Shantung I've kept going.
Tim DH
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Hi Mark,
Happy Days! I was 'security' on most of those AGS Shows... Back in them heady days we were quite concerned that we might not come home with as much plant material as we'd set out with! Dad would 'shoe-horn' Pleiones into as many different classes as he could, just to get the things seen, so we'd be quite spread out in a big hall.
On one memorable occasion in London, someone was getting far too intimate with one of the exhibits!
Tim DH
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I'm a little bit confused about 'Silver Anniversary'... When I took over Dad's collection it included 'Silver Wedding' (Seedling No. R6.34) which is/was a 'white' Shantung. Given the similarities in name and colouring, without a seedling number for Silver Anniversary, I can't be sure if they are different.
Thanks Tim; very interesting. My 'Silver Anniversary' came from Ian Butterfield and starts out pinkish then fades toward white as the flower ages, but never quite reaches 'pure' white. Very nice all the same.
Not having seen 'Natascha' 'in the flesh' I wondered how they compared.
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Speaking of which... here is my Shantung Silver Anniversary
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
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And here is an excerpt from the RHS magazine the Garden which featured Ian Butterfield and 2 Shantungs in Ian's top choices.
[attachimg=1]
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Pleione coronaria
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Hi John,
Which issue of 'The Garden' did that come from?
Tim DH
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Here (https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwiPyuyQhNfTAhVFOMAKHdzaAhQQFggkMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rhs.org.uk%2Fabout-the-rhs%2Fpublications%2Fmagazines%2Fthe-garden%2F2013-issues%2Fdecember%2Fpleionedec13&usg=AFQjCNE0PIz22GEx5GM3lE9zjRP_9djCbw&sig2=e-zYCSoFYlvmye7EgLmE3Q&cad=rja) it is Tim.
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Recent openers
Orizaba Fish Eagle x chunii
[attachimg=1]
Kima
[attachimg=2]
Marion Johnson 'Oxpecker'
[attachimg=3]
Kenya 'Wood Owl'
[attachimg=4]
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formosana 'Clare'
[attachimg=1]
Volcanello 'Honey Buzzard'
[attachimg=2]
Stromboli 'Fireball'
[attachimg=3]
aurita
[attachimg=4]
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Red Colobus
[attachimg=1]
Yeti
[attachimg=2]
Mageik 'Black Kite'
[attachimg=3]
Tamarin
[attachimg=4]
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Lilac Wonder
[attachimg=1]
Siamang
[attachimg=2]
Betty Arnold
[attachimg=3]
Ueli Wackernagel x grandiflora
[attachimg=4]
Apologies if I've posted any of these before....
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I love the Orizaba Fish Eagle x chunii and Ueli Wackernagel x grandiflora John. Are they your crosses?
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No Mark, not my crosses. In fact I have only just crossed some pleiones last year... a bit late in life. But hey ho, just 5 to 7 years to go!
The Ueli Wackernagel 'Pearl' x grandiflora is in fact a recross with 'Pearl' selected, to make a hybrid registered by Paul Cumbleton. His hybrid he named Tamarin - which I also have (bought as small bulbs from Paul - I think - 2 or 3 years ago) - Tamarin flowered for the first time for me this year. So it's interesting to compare one with the other.
The re-cross:
[attach=1]
The following are all Paul's Tamarin:
[attach=2]
I really like the next one...
[attach=3]
[attach=4]
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Nice Tamarins John ;).
Here are the few flowers from Czech.
K.
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Very nice Karel!
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I would be very grateful for help in naming the pleione pictured below.
I bought it a few years ago from a very reliable retailer as "Pleione hookeriana" which it plainly isn't. It is possible I have mis-labelled it though I don't think so. I only grow true species and primary (initially wild-derived) hybrids. I would not knowingly have bought a man-made hybrid (it's just the way I am! :) ). Could this plant be Pl. bulbocodioides or is it a hybrid?
Many thanks.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2884/33515657943_8541dd4832_o.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4156/34142886170_436930316b_o.jpg)
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Steve, immediate thought is volcanello, perhaps ,'honey buzzard'?
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Hi Ashley,
Thanks for the link to the magazine article.
Hi John,
Thanks for your steady stream of photos…
Here are a few more from me:
P.Ueli Wackernagel ‘Regal’ The same pan I think.. now overcrowded!
P.Ueli Wackernagel ‘169.1’ Sister seedling to Regal (which is 169.7) much easier to appreciate the flowers.
P.Vesuvius ‘Ember’
P.bulbocodioides 6X ‘M205.1’ from Cangshan, Yunnan. Sino/British expedition 1981. RGB Edinburgh ACC.NO: 812467
P. hybrid (P.Soufriere x P.Shepherd's Warning) ‘Swan Song’
Tim DH
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Tim, that bulbocodioides is stunning. As are all the others actually! :)
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Hi Tim - thanks for the thanks!
I have not seen Vesuvius Ember before - so nice to see that - nor have I seen Swan Song (I have a few small bulbs I'm growing on, and I must say that your photo has me anticipating!)
For comparison with Ember here is my Vesuvius 'Phoenix' and 'Tawny Owl' (later note - when I took these photos, the colour balance was wrong - I realise now. Tawny Owl in particular is way too blue. See my later post for a much more accurate rendition.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
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Steve - I can see why Bart suggested Volcanello 'Honey Buzzard' - so here is mine... it is similar. But a key difference is the petal shape - mine are much less rounded than yours appear to be.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
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The photo I posted of Vesuvius Tawny Owl was an old one and I realised too blue. Here is a more recent one.
[attachimg=1]
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And here is one - new to me - a single pseudo bulb of Nyiarongo. Very beautiful large flowers I think.
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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Aurita
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
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Now a strange one...
x barbarae. For some reason, this year they are all sky gazers. Odd.
[attachimg=1]
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Finally Shantung Ridgeway
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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Hi Ashley,
Thanks for the link to the magazine article.
Hi John,
Thanks for your steady stream of photos…
Here are a few more from me:
P.Ueli Wackernagel ‘Regal’ The same pan I think.. now overcrowded!
P.Ueli Wackernagel ‘169.1’ Sister seedling to Regal (which is 169.7) much easier to appreciate the flowers.
P.Vesuvius ‘Ember’
P.bulbocodioides 6X ‘M205.1’ from Cangshan, Yunnan. Sino/British expedition 1981. RGB Edinburgh ACC.NO: 812467
P. hybrid (P.Soufriere x P.Shepherd's Warning) ‘Swan Song’
Tim DH
Tim, your P.bulbocodioides 6X ‘M205.1’ from Cangshan, Yunnan looks like P.× taliensis very much. The type of P.× taliensis also collected from Cangshan.
Anyway, amazing plants!
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Pleione coronaria
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4156/34620203155_7047bd9f3d_o_d.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4169/34468736292_7d307dee87_o_d.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4178/34468736682_b551fefbd7_o_d.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4192/34458237162_d8ba744086_o_d.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4161/34468736862_58de006872_o_d.jpg)
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Pleione x taliensis -apparently thought to be a natural hybrid of yunnanensis and bulbocodioides. Some certainly look like they are but others appear to have the influence of additional species.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4186/34468735722_12ba080fc1_o_d.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4174/34468735542_a15458c89a_o_d.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4159/34468737132_0fa910a577_o_d.jpg)
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Just for comparison Steve, here is my Pln. x taliensis 'Lushan'
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
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Thanks John.
I find both x taliensis and x barbarae to be highly variable.
Here are a selection of pleione which I have labelled as x barbarae:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4190/34468737682_85731106b3_o_d.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4192/34468735312_8a427fdf58_o_d.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4190/34468737392_bc5cf95122_o_d.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4158/34633647546_c2de1108ef_o_d.jpg)
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Steve, regarding your x barbarae, oddly when I first looked at your x taliensis, I thought how much your last photograph looked like some x barbarae I've seen (though presumably the x taliensis in that last image is a smaller bloom than x barbarae). I realise that with bulbocodiodes in both hybrids, similarities are inevitable - which makes identification tricky!
Oh... and I think your final x barbarae has a very fine form.
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Pleione x taliensis -apparently thought to be a natural hybrid of yunnanensis and bulbocodioides. Some certainly look like they are but others appear to have the influence of additional species.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4186/34468735722_12ba080fc1_o_d.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4174/34468735542_a15458c89a_o_d.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4159/34468737132_0fa910a577_o_d.jpg)
Steve, to me all your ×taliensis seems to be ×barbarae
and ×barbarae itsself probably hybrid with a third species——yunnanensis because I found they are co-ocurring in central Yunnan Province
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I'm not so sure we should considere the actual repartition of the species when we seek for probable parent of a natural hybrid, because indeed, they do occure or not occure in the same areas today, but perhaps not so much 50 or 100 years ago, and we have no clue as to when the cross took place. Only genetic mapping would give us the answer.
The variability of forms can be accounted by the fact that those plants comes from hybrid swarm, with several generations and backcrosses among them.
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Thanks Vigor and Julien.
Vigor I find it very interesting that you have some experience of these plants in the wild. Clearly you found x barbarae to be very variable, were they growing in the company of grandiflora and bulbocodioides (and also yunnanensis)? Did you feel that the x barbarae hybrids were out-competing their parent species? Is there any evidence that human activity is allowing natural species to mix which then encourages hybridization? The hybrid vigour of such plants might result in the hybrids out competing and replacing their parent species.
I get the impression that pleione speciation was driven by long term population isolations rather than specific niche adaption (the latter would allow species to co-exist within a geographical area whilst the former might encourage hybridization).
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Julien, I agree with you that the variability of × barbarae is because they are from a hybrid swarm and only genetic mapping would give us the answer.
A third species’ involvement in the hybridisition is just a wild guess.
Steve, I believe × barbarae growing in the company of grandiflora but I didn't see it with my own eyes. Flora of China treats these two as one under the name of Pleione grandiflora based on the fact that these two only differ in the flower colour. Indeed, some forms of × barbarae have the same flower morphology with grandiflora, sometimes I wonder if the white grandiflora is just a white form, as other species in the genus, such as white formosana, forrestii, scopulorum...The situation of × barbarae seems to be more complicated than we think. As Julien said, only genetic mapping would give us an unimpugnable answer.
Human disturbances do faciliate natural species to hybridise. However, two population in the wild was told to me that either white or pink flower in a population (not a mix group as scopulorum, see the pictures below). My few wild experiences indicate co-occuring species often share same or similar niche. On Cangshan, a mountain near Dali in west Yunnan, forrestii, albiflora and ×taliensis can be found on the same cliff.
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A cascade of pleiones; what an amazing sight :o
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Pleione aurita -3 different forms with slight variations on the lip.
The final image is from a huge pseudobulb that I bought as Pln. aurita from a German source (though I think it was bred & raised by the dutch company Anthura)-it looks to me to be an aurita hybrid which is a bit disappointing.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4179/34468738082_7aa485febd_o.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4161/34468736042_6ce9169d33_o.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4175/34754360796_9e59b72952_o.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4178/34674385785_e0f7af21b9_o.jpg)
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Hi Guys,
I’m enjoying the photos… Sorry I’ve been ‘out of it’ for a while.
Hi John,
Your star gazing x barbarae is interesting. I’ve always thought that this behaviour is a desirable trait and I have one cultivar which does it consistently. Attached a photo of P. Stromboli 'Senorita' taken from directly overhead. I don’t think I’ve ever posted one from that angle before! Also a more normal shot of the same pan.
The upright flowering trait is a particular bonus today since my $£%&* back has ruled out any bending down for a week or so!!
Hi Vigor,
Habitat & wild shots are always much appreciated… I’ve forwarded a couple of them to my Dad who was once in Dali, but on that particular occasion Cangshan was wrapped in ‘Red Tape’.
( $£%&* times at least ten!!!)
Tim DH
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Steve, I've encountered exactly the same , a pleione bought as aurita from a reliable seller which turned out with the same spots...
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Julien, do you have any idea what the other parent might be?
This makes me worry about other "species" from this source. ???
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Steve.. not sure really, I was considering grandiflora regarding the wide lip and the brown spots, but it doesnt look like any Muriel I've seen.
Karel suggested it was most likely a reverse cross of Kima (in this case it would be aurita as a pod parent and chunii as a pollen parent), but it doesnt look like the Kimas I've seen either, and the flowers are much much bigger than regular Kima... so it remains unconclusive.
What is even more disturbing in my case is that the other plants of the same origin which the seller stil has flowered as true aurita... so it might just be a genetic accident somewhere down the line...
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Some people suggested that it looked like Burnsall (yunnanensis x aurita).
The plant I have seems much too big compared to confirmed burnsall I have, and also lack the tall stem and some yellow on the lip...
I guess we'll never know, might be better to label it as Pln somethingensis
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Aye, there seems to have been a mix-up with the labelling of this test-tube baby at the nursery!
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Pleione scopulorum
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4221/34833047052_4130514a96_o_d.jpg)
- a small flowered form.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4196/34833047202_dc7d2ebd1a_o_d.jpg)
-a selected semi-alba form of scopulorum called Selene. It seems to clump up quite well.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4201/34833046752_bd2c4f6aec_b_d.jpg)
Re-post of this image of an early-flowering (and large-flowered) scopulorum which was in flower 7 weeks ago.
What distinguishes Pleione kaatiae from Pleione scopulorum?
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Last (Spring) pleione to flower here is Pleione hookeriana.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4236/35145507995_4659ca3125_o_d.jpg)
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(Much too crowded) Pleione maculata seedlings
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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Does somebody know any details about recently described a natural hybrid - Pleione x kingdonwardii (humilis x bulbocodioides)? Where, when and who this plant collected?
K.
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Is this the same thing as the clone previously grown as Pleione humilis Frank Kingdon Ward?
There was a paper published in June of this year about this form. The abstract suggests it is a triploid hybrid -presumably with two sets of chromosomes from humilis. Unfortunately I don't have access to the full article: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/curt.12190/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/curt.12190/abstract)
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It is Steve. PM me your email address if you'd like the paper.
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Strange experience with my pleione tonight. With more rain forecast I decided to move some of my pits into a more sheltered position. When I picked up a pot of Shantung Silver Anniversary I noticed a 5p sized bluster on the biggest bulb. Me being me I poked said blister and got a face full of liquid. I cannot remove the bulb from the pot without upsetting the rest and so have covered the wound with cinnamon and will destroy the bulb when it is possible. But any thoughts on what the cause might be? I have thousands of bulbs and could not find any other such blisters.
Also I washed my hands and face and as yet am experiencing no odd symptoms. ;D
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Some people suggested that it looked like Burnsall (yunnanensis x aurita).
The plant I have seems much too big compared to confirmed burnsall I have, and also lack the tall stem and some yellow on the lip...
I guess we'll never know, might be better to label it as Pln somethingensis
Could also be a pure clone of Pleione Shasta (Pleione Sajama x Pleione aurita)
Regards Erling
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Those two Pleione saxicola are the first for this autumn.
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A Pleione praecox form obtained as Pleione vietnamensis.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4489/37150661284_fdd2e29598_o_d.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4504/37150661854_9bfbf89265_o_d.jpg)
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A Pleione praecox form obtained as Pleione vietnamensis.
I'd be glad to obtain this beauty under any name Steve ! :o
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Pleione 'Confirmation'
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some autum flowerin species:
Pleione maculata
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... and Pleione praecox
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An older Butterfield breed, Pleione 'Lassen Peak'.
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I've always liked Lassen Peak but always found it unreliable in my growing conditions.
Catwheazle : Are you sure you 1st picture is maculata? The lip shape evocates Liz Shan to me.
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Not sure this is the right place, but I've just lifted my spring flowering Pleione hybrids ready for replanting in a couple of months.
On the whole most have done well. The new ones I got less well.
I followed advice that they should go into 2.5 inch pots and I wonder if that might be too small under my local conditions. Obviously they were fed but I wonder if in the small pots they roots get too warm or the compost remains too wet or there is less available air in the compost.
The pleiones were all in pots on the greenhouse floor next to a fan - some filtered sunlight.
Any thoughts or ideas?
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Hi Mark
I have grown my new ones under similar conditions in 1-L square pots. They have done well, some are slightly smaller than those from my 7-L trays, but not much of a difference. Greenhouse, 40% shade, water once a week (twice in the few warm weeks we had this summer), 10% strength inorganic tomato fertilizer with every watering, 1/3 moss 2/3 bark (0.5-2 cm). Which compost do you use?
Anders
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hi Anders, it's an orchid bark, sphagnum and perlite mix - I can't remember the proportions
I think 1 L is much bigger - what is the diameter of the pots in centimetres?
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@Julien: Thanks for the info, how are the two different?
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Mark, you are right. My square pots are 10x10x11 cm, which is much bigger than your round 6.4 cm pots. I guess that is what makes the difference.
Anders
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Catwheazle : on maculate the lip is generally quite short and in my experience, the stripes are rather pinkish than reddish (and the upper part of the yellow is not bordered by red)
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thanks Anders, I thought the pots were a bit too small.
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Ok thx
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Barcena
Confirmation
Wharfedale Pine Warbler
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They'd make a snazzy decoration for a festive dinner table, Ashley!
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They're very cheery all right Maggi ;D
I'm torn between bringing them indoors to enjoy briefly, or keeping them cool for longer :-\
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.....................Wharfdale Pine Warbler......................
Ashley, there should be an 'e' between the 'f' and the 'd', from the River Wharfe. The river name possibly came from the Saxon word 'guerf' meaning swift (that morfed into the Old English 'weorf') or perhaps the Old Norse word 'hverfr' usually used to mean winding.
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Thanks very much David. Corrected now.
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Pleione Barcena 'Sparkle'
Pleione Wharfedale 'Pine Warbler'
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Hello all.
I have been contacted by a frind in China. She is a Assistant Professor, Department of Landscape Architecture
Fujian Agriculture and Forestry University. At the moment she is doing some resurch on wild growing Pleione in China. She has send me the following pictures of wild flowing Pleione. She is very interested in help to ID them. Have any of you got an opinion to share, it will be welcome.
Thanks in advance
Erling
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The 1st one looks like a form or hybrid of humilis (or albiflora?), but the gradient of color of the lip (especially the yellow part) puzzles me, really gorgeous though.
the 2nd picture looks hybrid in nature (x barbarae ?)
I've seen plants looking similar to 3-4-5 being sold as achromatic/albinos forms of limprichtii, but since they seem to be growing epiphytic on those pictures, I doubt....