Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => NARCISSUS => Topic started by: SJW on February 01, 2015, 05:17:48 PM
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Bought a pot of Narcissus romieuxii seedlings at the Kendal show last year and they've just started flowering. The writing on the label was a little difficult to decipher but it looks like "KD 101". Am I right in thinking KD is Kath Dryden? (Also had "2nds" on the label. That's OK, I wouldn't expect people to put their best stock on the sales table!)
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2nds could also mean second year seedlings, perhaps?
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Narcissus cantabricus, initially appeared in a pot of Iris narbutii. Seems to multiply quickly, had only 3 flowers last year.
I remember you showing this chance seedling last year, Cyril. It clearly likes your climate in sunny Fife and it's an attractive form too. As I've said before, N.cantabricus forms can be very sulky with me :'(
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2nds could also mean second year seedlings, perhaps?
Hadn't thought of that! Less confusing to put the sowing date on the label though because if the label stays in the pot for another year or so they are no longer 2nd year seedlings...
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Also had "2nds" on the label.
I thought it's one of the second generation seeedlings from the original plant...
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I thought it's one of the second generation seeedlings from the original plant...
I think you've probably nailed it, Tatsuo! When I read '2nds' I automatically equated it with this:
Factory seconds, also known as refurbished goods or simply as seconds, are retail items which, through minor fault of manufacture, are sold to the public for a reduced rate, rather than being discarded.
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This may primarily be of interest to readers in the Southern Hemispere, but I will post it here, because there is seed for sale which amy be able to be ordered outside Australia, and I am not sure if Lawrence T. ships bulbs or not - you can always ask him!
Lawrence Trevanion (http://www.trevaniondaffodils.com.au) has got new catalogues out - this for bulbs : http://www.trevaniondaffodils.com.au/Trevanion_Daffodils_Catalogue_2014_15.pdf (http://www.trevaniondaffodils.com.au/Trevanion_Daffodils_Catalogue_2014_15.pdf)
and this for seed : http://www.trevaniondaffodils.com.au/Trevanion_Daffodils_SeedCatalog_2014_15.pdf (http://www.trevaniondaffodils.com.au/Trevanion_Daffodils_SeedCatalog_2014_15.pdf)
Postal address: 18 Terewah Circuit,
Kaleen ACT 2617, Australia
Phone: 61 - 2 - 6241 4543
Email: info@trevaniondaffodils.com.au
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Narcissus romieuxii today,
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A little one and a gift from a friend. N hedraeanthus
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Oron, so many flowers! Are these in the wild?
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I remember you showing this chance seedling last year, Cyril. It clearly likes your climate in sunny Fife and it's an attractive form too. As I've said before, N.cantabricus forms can be very sulky with me :'(
Matt, not exactly sunny in Fife so far this year but this seedling seems to want to grow and flower. I have self pollinated it today and will send you some seeds if successful. It might just like your climate.
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Ian and Maggi's N. romieuxii 'Craigton Clumper' really lives up to its name now.
Bought just two years ago and from one bulb then, it gives quite some flowers now.
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Matt, not exactly sunny in Fife so far this year but this seedling seems to want to grow and flower. I have self pollinated it today and will send you some seeds if successful. It might just like your climate.
That would be very kind of you Cyril. I'd be happy to give some seeds a go as you never know, I may yet find a form that likes it here.
We've had two days of glorious sunshine here and it's forecast to remain for the week, thank goodness. Whilst the ground and lochs remain frozen, temperatures in the bulb frame have managed to get up into double figures during the daytime. I even managed to lunch outside without being bundled up in 6 layers of warm clothes.
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Ian and Maggi's N. romieuxii 'Craigton Clumper' really lives up to its name now.
Bought just two years ago and from one bulb then, it gives quite some flowers now.
It certainly is a good'un. I've been using it as a seed parent here for some hybridisation, hoping it's progeny might inherit it's vigour and flower-power ;D
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This may primarily be of interest to readers in the Southern Hemispere, but I will post it here, because there is seed for sale which amy be able to be ordered outside Australia, and I am not sure if Lawrence T. ships bulbs or not - you can always ask him!
Lawrence Trevanion (http://www.trevaniondaffodils.com.au) has got new catalogues out - this for bulbs : http://www.trevaniondaffodils.com.au/Trevanion_Daffodils_Catalogue_2014_15.pdf (http://www.trevaniondaffodils.com.au/Trevanion_Daffodils_Catalogue_2014_15.pdf)
and this for seed : http://www.trevaniondaffodils.com.au/Trevanion_Daffodils_SeedCatalog_2014_15.pdf (http://www.trevaniondaffodils.com.au/Trevanion_Daffodils_SeedCatalog_2014_15.pdf)
Postal address: 18 Terewah Circuit,
Kaleen ACT 2617, Australia
Phone: 61 - 2 - 6241 4543
Email: info@trevaniondaffodils.com.au
Thanks for putting a plug in for Lawrence, Maggi,
I've shown pics of some of his daffs in some of the 2014 threads,
cheers
fermi
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Narcissus romieuxii. It’s one of the flattest hoop-petticoat daffodils in my collection.
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fantastic
Mel New Zealand
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Thanks for putting a plug in for Lawrence, Maggi,
I've shown pics of some of his daffs in some of the 2014 threads,
cheers
fermi
Hi Fermi
Nice to see you are on here as well, thanks so much for sending me the seed list
Mel
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Narcissus romieuxii. It’s one of the flattest hoop-petticoat daffodils in my collection.
WOW Tatsuo, only you can grow them to this level of perfection!
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fantastic
Mel New Zealand
Thanks, Mel :)
WOW Tatsuo, only you can grow them to this level of perfection!
If you lived in my country, you could grow them compact as mine or perhaps better ;)
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Superb, Tatsuo! :D
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Well yes one word :stunning ;)
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I would agree. Amazing. 8)
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Narcissus Firelight Gold from Nancy Wilson in California.
Bred by Walter J.M. Blom
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Very nice Arnold. Some of mine, looking quite floppy, from the greenhouse today.
Narcissus romieuxii x bulbocodium a Ranveig Wallis cross.
N.
N. bulbocodium var. genuinus also from Brian.
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.... and a few more.
Narcissus romieuxii JCA805Y 'Atlas Gold'
N. romieuxii ex. 'Primrose Yellow' from seed sown August 2007
N. jacetanus ssp. acetanus from seed Rafa kindly sent me and sown September 2009. I may have got this wrong but I think Rafa's notes were 'collected Alava, Egino de la Lece, 900 Mtrs
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You are right David.
Well, many people don't support Narcissus jacetanus, and I have to say that I haven't a solid oppinion about it.
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Some of mine, looking quite floppy, from the greenhouse today.
Most of mine are floppy too (except 'Don Stead' which is a good sturdy plant), first from lack of light and then, ironically, too much light as the sun came out! Unusually, we've have a lot of freezing temperatures recently, but because they'd all wilted I had to risk watering them and thankfully it's not been so cold since.
N. jacetanus ssp. acetanus from seed Rafa kindly sent me and sown September 2009. I may have got this wrong but I think Rafa's notes were 'collected Alava, Egino de la Lece, 900 Mtrs
Whatever the botanical status, those little trumpets on N.jacetanus are lovely. Hoping mine will flower this year :)
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I wonder, if like me, other Narcissus growers have made use of these two RHS papers:-
Botanical Classification
https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffbotanical (https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffbotanical)
and,
Botanical Names in the Genus Narcissus
https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffalpha (https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffalpha)
Previously I have had Links to them in My Favorites but earlier today I found neither Link would work and simply led me to the RHS main page. I spent nearly two hours trying to locate the pages again (does anyone else think the "new and improved RHS Web Site" is an absolute shambles)?
So thought I would add them here.
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I've always found these to be very useful... in forming the basis of a shopping list of species, subspecies and varieties and forms I don't yet have!! ;D ;D
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I wonder, if like me, other Narcissus growers have made use of these two RHS papers:-
Botanical Classification
https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffbotanical (https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffbotanical)
and,
Botanical Names in the Genus Narcissus
https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffalpha (https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffalpha)
Previously I have had Links to them in My Favorites but earlier today I found neither Link would work and simply led me to the RHS main page. I spent nearly two hours trying to locate the pages again (does anyone else think the "new and improved RHS Web Site" is an absolute shambles)?
So thought I would add them here.
Very useful links, David, I agree. I also agree that the RHS website is now a complete waste of time.
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Dave;
What's your temperature range in the greenhouse these days.
I try for 40-45 F but usually winds up a bit warmer.
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Dave;
What's your temperature range in the greenhouse these days.
I try for 40-45 F but usually winds up a bit warmer.
Difficult to say Arnold, my thermometer in the greenhouse died all of two years ago and I've never replaced it. If I go with the thermometer in the car (and I've spent far more time in the car than I have in the garden or the greenhouse since Christmas) we are in a coldish spell at the moment with daytime temperatures varying between 37 and 45 dependent upon the conditions at the time and the time of day (no snow yet this year). My greenhouse top vents and side vents are open all the year round so maybe not too different from yours.
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Narcissus albidus ex SF110 from Anne Wright. This one has stayed short.
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Dave:
thanks, my vents open very rarely these days. We've been having a 'real' northeast winter.
More snow on the way.
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another from Anne
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Very nice N. jacetanus - I think it is distinct to my non-taxonomist's eye.
The N. ex SF110 is a cracker - one of the best from that batch, I reckon!
Your Fringellas are ahead of mine, Yann, and I think Brian is still under snow!
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Flowering in West Yorkshire today
Not for the purist - too tall and too large - but a superb hybrid well worth its AM and AGM awards
'Sporoit'
N. cantabricus petunioides Alex Jeans form (ex Anne Wright)
N. asturiensis ex Portugal ('Treble Chance' behind)
'True' N. lusitanicus just coming into flower
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Two narcissus I acquired from Anne last autumn have flowed, the first one in N. Asturiesis, loverly little dwarf narcissus from the Iberian peninsula, hopefully when I have enough of them I can try it outside as it's supposed to be cold hardy. Next is N. Albious SF110, it only has one flower at the moment, but it's a beauty, this is the first time I have grown this do the leaves always hang down like they are with my plant?
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John, N. asturiensis is perfectly hardy outside but so small that it's easily overgrown by neighbours.
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Hi Ashley its a small dainty little thing, I was thinking perhaps in a planter on its own or with similar sized bulbs or alpines would look great. Do you grow it in cork?
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I'd agree John; maybe in a trough or open patch of rock-garden.
Yes it grows fairly well here and multiplies slowly.
Growing from seed is an easy way to get more plants, and some diversity. With me these small daffs usually take 3-4 years to reach flowering size but are well worth the wait.
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John, you'll probably want to do something to prevent slug damage if you do try N. asturiensis outside.
Check it's not suffering from lack of water, otherwise it's pretty normal for N. albidus SF110 and many of the hoop petticoats to have lax foliage. The leaves are so thin and light levels so low in our relatively high latitude that they grow too long and can't support themselves. I believe they can also grow to considerable lengths in the wild, trailing through and over other vegetation Some of the N. bulbocodium varieties have slightly more robust foliage (nivalis, obesus etc) which might flop less, but N.cantabricus and N.romieuxii (which N.albidus is close to - the current position is that it's placed as N. romieuxii subsp. albidus - although I'm not convinced) share these thread-like leaves.
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Hi matt thanks for the advice, I keep chickens & I use the empty egg shells as a kind of mulch around my hostas and other plants which slugs and snails go for, it's worked well so far, I'll do the same for the narcissus. I don't know how I got the name wrong for the Albidus though, I'll get the lable changed.
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John, I'd leave your label as it is. Personally, I'm not entirely comfortable with albidus as a subspecies of N. romieuxii. The taxonomic status of some of these hoop petticoats is pretty fluid, so you can just pick a name you're happy with and stick with it, as sooner or later it will be in vogue and then back out again on the botanical nomenclature merry-go-round!
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Ok cheers matt
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... Do you grow it in cork?
I did a double-take on first reading this before remembering where Ashley lives. I was thinking well I've used leaf mould and composted bark but Quercus suber?! ;D
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;D Me too!
John, N.albidus and some other hoop petticoats do tend to have lax leaves, especially in cultivation, unless you live in Japan (see Tatsuo's posts!).
Here is a link to a potful on my website http://www.dryad-home.co.uk/gallery/NARCISSUS/Narcissus%20Species%20and%20natural%20hybrids/index.html#Narcissus%20albidus%20SF110%20rule%2014.jpg (http://www.dryad-home.co.uk/gallery/NARCISSUS/Narcissus%20Species%20and%20natural%20hybrids/index.html#Narcissus%20albidus%20SF110%20rule%2014.jpg)
I think it would help to have them constantly moving with a breeze through - this might stiffen the leaves. I need a blower in my greenhouse!
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Beautiful albidus Anne, here is one of these for you and steve over cork ;D maybe I should have said corcaigh ;D
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Photographed today - Brian Duncan's prolific Limey Lass, and one I grew from seed in 1991 (!) as N. cantabricus tananicus which I believe is not a valid name for this little cutie.
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Wow! Will have to look out for 'Limey Lass' on your list this year.
Plant list has N.c. tananicus as a synonym of N. romieuxii subsp. albidus: http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-311013 (http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-311013)
Those upward facing flowers with exerted parts are a give away aren't they?
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Are they? I'm not familiar with that one. Or is it eualbidus? I seem to recall seeing a pic of that one that looked like mine.
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In that the flowers have an over all impression ('jizz' in birding terms) of N.romieuxii?
See what you mean about eualbidus, although we start running into nomenclatural quagmire with that name. Seems that a name for this plant came up before: http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6791.msg188625#msg188625
The Plant List entry would suggest that Kew no longer accepts N.c.tananicus as a valid name. But the plant you show doesn't sit easily with what we know as N. albidus. I can seem similarities with both romieuxii and cantabricus, especially the 'clusii-type' in the later.
This may be a case where continuing to use the established name, botanically correct or no, might make sense in horticultural terms?
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It seems that eu- is...
a combining form ... in scientific coinages, especially taxonomic names, it often has the sense “true, genuine” (eukaryote)
With eualbidus given as either an invalid species in it's own right or as a variety of N. cantabricus, continuing to use the established term in the form "N.cantabricus tananicus (Hort.)" might make most sense for gardeners?
I don't want to think about whether this is indeed the 'true' albidus and what to call the plants are we grow as SF110 etc. ???
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Photographed today - Brian Duncan's prolific Limey Lass, and one I grew from seed in 1991 (!) as N. cantabricus tananicus which I believe is not a valid name for this little cutie.
A wonderful potfull 'Limey Lass', Anne :o :o :o And its small flowers of "tananicus" are sweet!
I don't want to think about whether this is indeed the 'true' albidus and what to call the plants are we grow as SF110 etc. ???
I'd like to see the typical N. romieuxii romieuxii and its varieties anyway...
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Narcissus romieuxii pots are full blooming now :)
First picture is the same pot posted on 04 Feb (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12772.msg323563#msg323563).
Second picture is one of the sister seedlings of the above.
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Well they surely are not the typical N. romieuxiis! Stunning as usual, Tatsuo.
Matt, I think I'll call it tananicus (hort) - as long as I list it with a photo and description, people will know what to expect. ::)
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Narcissus jonquilla is putting on a good show and smelling great too.
This Narcissus bertolonii is also flowering, finally. I received the bulb 3 years ago, for 2 years it did nothing, not even a leaf or a root. At last this scape with 2 flowers. Hope it does something more next year, it smells lovely but needs to pull up it's socks if it expects to stay!
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Narcissus jonquilla is putting on a good show and smelling great too.
This Narcissus bertolonii is also flowering, finally. I received the bulb 3 years ago, for 2 years it did nothing, not even a leaf or a root. At last this scape with 2 flowers. Hope it does something more next year, it smells lovely but needs to pull up it's socks if it expects to stay!
I like jonquilla's six-lobed cups, Matt :) I didn't know the narcissus bulb can survive 2 years without roots and leaves :o
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Narcissus romieuxii, with naturally tiny flower. When I obtained it was labeled as "Narcissus romieuxii var. mesatlanticus, SRGC 2845" :)
This plant is very shy to flower. The last flower was 2011...
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I like jonquilla's six-lobed cups, Matt :)
Thanks Tatsuo, I think the jonquil is the cultivar 'Twinkling Yellow', a selection from N. jonquilla var. henriquesii. It's a good grower and flowers freely here.
I didn't know the narcissus bulb can survive 2 years without roots and leaves :o
I was surprised too, although I imagine if a bulb stays completely dormant it is only 'ticking over' using minimal resources. We really don't have enough sun for tazetta types here, but I do have a success to show in a couple of weeks.
The last flower was 2011...
Your little mesatlanticus is pretty. This plant is usually free flowering so you've been very patient.
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Matt, I can smell your jonquillas from here! You are way ahead of me.
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They're cracking plants, Anne. I always think that I should do away with a few pots as they're taking up quite a bit of space in the bulb frame, but they redeem themselves at this time of year when their fragrance wins me over to them again.
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Narcissus cantabricus var. petunioides has just started to bloom. Perhaps this weekend?
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That is going to be spectacular! How many bulbs in that pot, Tatsuo?
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You keep bowling us over with your stunningly compact plants, Tatsuo !!
I know it's been told before, but you grow them to perfection ! :o :o
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I'm so excited! Trumpet season has begun!! :D :D
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I'm so excited! Trumpet season has begun!! :D :D
Looking very comfortable in their new home, Anne!
I think we're all on the cusp of a daff-explosion. On occasion it's felt spring-like here (but not today). February may be white with green bits, but March will be all about the yellow!
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That is going to be spectacular! How many bulbs in that pot, Tatsuo?
There are 9 bulbs in the pot and 2 or 3 buds from each bulbs, Anne. Probably this season become the best ever.
You keep bowling us over with your stunningly compact plants, Tatsuo !!
Thanks, Luc ;D Your bulb collections are also amazing ;)
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I'm so excited! Trumpet season has begun!! :D :D
I have been waiting for this moment, Anne :D :D :D
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Spent a whole morning pollinating daffs and snowdrops, seeing as the sun was out. SO cold still though. Tatsuo, you must show us when all the buds are open.
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Stunning view Anne!
Also the small trumpet narcissus start to flower. I grow them in open garden next to my crocusses.
Narcissus asturiensis
Narcissus 'Bowles Early Sumphur'
Narcissus 'Navarre'
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Also the small trumpet narcissus start to flower. I grow them in open garden next to my crocusses.
Narcissus asturiensis
Narcissus 'Bowles Early Sumphur'
Narcissus 'Navarre'
There are lovely tiny trumpets, ruben :D
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A perfect trio. :D
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The dainty trumpets are so pretty!
Quick question: has anyone had any success using 'Don Stead' as a pollen parent? With cantabricus / bulbocodium parentage is should be fertile. I don't appear to have seed set, but it might be because its not compatible with the seed parent.
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Tatsuo, you must show us when all the buds are open.
Yes, of course, Anne. But my camera has suddenly broken a couple of hours ago :'( The lens tube has stuck and an error message appeared on display...
And I took the petunioides pot by my smartphone camera.
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:o :o
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:o :o
Some good news. It will take a few more days to full blooming and a spare camera will be delivered tomorrow :)
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Quick question: has anyone had any success using 'Don Stead' as a pollen parent? With cantabricus / bulbocodium parentage is should be fertile. I don't appear to have seed set, but it might be because its not compatible with the seed parent.
You'd think it would work, wouldn't you? Ian hasn't had any success with it though and it has never set seed itself for us.
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Thanks Maggi. It might be a hybridisers dead end then, but when it is a nigh on perfect plant already it's probably best not to try 'gilding the lily'.
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For comparison with Tatsuo's tiny gem here is one of our pots of Narcisus cantabricus petunioides, the flowers will be the same size but our stems are ten times longer, :'(
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Thanks Maggi. It might be a hybridisers dead end then, but when it is a nigh on perfect plant already it's probably best not to try 'gilding the lily'.
Matt it is worth persevering for the short compact stems that Narcissus 'Don Stead' could pass on to a new generation.
The stems always stay relatively compact even in our light, goodness knows what they will do with you Tatsuo :D
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Matt it is worth persevering for the short compact stems that Narcissus 'Don Stead' could pass on to a new generation.
The stems always stay relatively compact even in our light, goodness knows what they will do with you Tatsuo :D
He remained nicely compact here too Ian, so those short scapes would be a great trait to pass on. The colour is rather nice too. Following the theme of this weeks Bulb Log, it's a plant you could easily pick out of an anonymous line up no trouble at all. I dabbed pollen on 3 occasions each a couple of days apart and in reasonable weather. I'll not give up! Will have to try again next year.
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I managed 2 crosses with him last year - one produced 1 seed and the other 2 seeds!
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Prolific, Anne! ;D
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And that's if it germinates!
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Was Don Stead the pollen or the seed parent Anne?
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I read somewhere recently (brain will slowly recall the source at some point - might have been Jefferson-Brown?) that if you find a pollen parent isn't successful or has poor fertility you can try microwaving the pollen for a few seconds then mixing it with fresh pollen before applying it to the stigma. Sounds a bit 'Frankenstein', but there might be some science behind it that could make it work?
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Pollen parent, one onto another hoop, and one onto a triandrus (thinking - ooh, tiny x susannae...)
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I think I might lose it first - didn't get much pollen off to start with.
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Google has thrown up:
"Weak extremely high frequency microwaves affect pollen-tube emergence and growth in kiwifruit: pollen grain irradiation and water-mediated effects" at: http://bvsalud.org/portal/resource/es/mdl-12804075 (http://bvsalud.org/portal/resource/es/mdl-12804075)
and
"Self-fertility of Hippeastrum species" at: http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1765961/self-fertility-of-hippeastrum-species (http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1765961/self-fertility-of-hippeastrum-species)
where it states "tiny amounts of slightly different chemicals in the foreign, microwaved-thus-dead pollen trick the plant into believing its own pollen is not its own but from another clone", which gets me to thinking that maybe mixing Don Stead pollen with honey could be worth trying? Please, just call me Dr Frankenstigma!
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Hello colleagues,
long time since I have not written here, although I have read regularly ago. Before I had another nick ("Khalid") and now I have my real name. Today I bring my Narcissus bulbocodium ssp. bulbocodium var. ectandrum from my town in the mountains of central Spain. It has flourished yesterday in Germany, where I live.
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Very nice, Emilio - good to see you back here.
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Very nice, Emilio - good to see you back here.
Thank you very much Maggi. I missed you ;)
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For comparison with Tatsuo's tiny gem here is one of our pots of Narcisus cantabricus petunioides, the flowers will be the same size but our stems are ten times longer, :'(
Then, how about sharing this boat with us, Ian? 8) ;D
Floating garden
http://youtu.be/Fn84M8okqbI (http://youtu.be/Fn84M8okqbI)
He remained nicely compact here too Ian, so those short scapes would be a great trait to pass on. The colour is rather nice too. Following the theme of this weeks Bulb Log, it's a plant you could easily pick out of an anonymous line up no trouble at all. I dabbed pollen on 3 occasions each a couple of days apart and in reasonable weather. I'll not give up! Will have to try again next year.
Really hoping your good result in your breeding programmes, Matt :) My targets of the moment are vigorous flat corona and earlier flowering hoops ::)
Today I bring my Narcissus bulbocodium ssp. bulbocodium var. ectandrum from my town in the mountains of central Spain. It has flourished yesterday in Germany, where I live.
So, that golden spring herald from your home brightened you up, Emilio :D
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Narcissus bulbocodium ssp. bulbocodium var. ectandrum mature flower
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Narcissus bulbocodium subspecies
https://books.google.de/books?id=4_kH_BffGDgC&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=onepage&q&f=false (https://books.google.de/books?id=4_kH_BffGDgC&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=onepage&q&f=false)
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Thank you for that, Emilio - I wonder if those names are still valid today?
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Thank you for that, Emilio - I wonder if those names are still valid today?
Upsss! I don't know. Sorry. I found it by "casuality" and liked to know the differences with my ectandrus. I did not know the difference. And the book I enjoyed reading it, but I think it's no updated :'(
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Thank you for that, Emilio - I wonder if those names are still valid today?
The latest version (Oct '14) of the RHS Botanical Classification still lists this plant as N. b. subsp. bulbocodium var ectandrus: https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffbotanical (https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffbotanical)
However, the Plant List has it as a synonym of Narcissus nivalis (which it has elevated to species status): http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-282444
Clearly authorities differ ::) ::)
Emilio's plant appears to be very similar to what I grow as N.(bulbocodium) nivalis.
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The latest version (Oct '14) of the RHS Botanical Classification still lists this plant as N. b. subsp. bulbocodium var ectandrus: https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffbotanical (https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffbotanical)
However, the Plant List has it as a synonym of Narcissus nivalis (which it has elevated to species status): http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-282444
Clearly authorities differ ::) ::)
Emilio's plant appears to be very similar to what I grow as N.(bulbocodium) nivalis.
Ah! Thank you very much Matt. This information is very important to me ;)
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I find the bulbocodium group very confusing, but the description of N nivalis ties in very closely to what we saw in Morocco.
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I honestly don't know what is wrong with just Narcissus bulbocodium full stop. Some are a bit bigger, some are a bit smaller but, in my view, none are different enough to warrant any sub-division.
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Shouldn't you be posting that in the Galanthus thread, David? ;D
I looked at the link to The Plant list, which is quite alarming, but seems to date from 2012. The RHS botanical list says it was updated in October 2014. I need to change a lot of labels...or maybe I'll just wait a bit. ;)
https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffalpha (https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/pdfs/plant-registration-forms/daffalpha)
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There are quite a lot of differences between the 2 lists. :-\
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I generally keep my labels with the names I received plants under, unless all authorities appear to agree on an alternative name. That way I know what plant I'm referring to and it maintains a link with places and people. If you did change you're labels I think you'd only be doing it all again in a year or two.
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Then, how about sharing this boat with us, Ian? 8) ;D
Floating garden
http://youtu.be/Fn84M8okqbI (http://youtu.be/Fn84M8okqbI)
Really hoping your good result in your breeding programmes, Matt :) My targets of the moment are vigorous flat corona and earlier flowering hoops ::)
So, that golden spring herald from your home brightened you up, Emilio :D
It is very a very nice design but I was thinking of something bigger, a big old container ship for instance would give plenty room for plenty glasshouses and gardens. 8)
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I generally keep my labels with the names I received plants under, unless all authorities appear to agree on an alternative name. That way I know what plant I'm referring to and it maintains a link with places and people. If you did change you're labels I think you'd only be doing it all again in a year or two.
Yes, that's the best way to avoid confusion. IMO more infomative than just putting a new ''name'' on it..
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I make no apologies for having posted this earlier in the month but it has really flowered well this year.
Narcissus romieuxii x N. bulbocodium originally from Ranveig Wallis
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Narcissus cantabricus var. petunioides 8)
I wish I had been The SRGC Dunblane Early Bulb Display with this pot today.
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Tatsuo, you've caught my breath. That is nothing less than spectacular.
If you could get it to Dunblane I'll bet it would receive a Certificate of Merit. ;D
Edit: or a First Class certificate even - I'm still getting to grips with all the various awards at the shows/committees etc. Confused.com
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Oh my word! That is truly a spectacular pot of Narcissus, Tatsuo. There would be people fainting with delight at Dunblane to see this beauty. What a master grower you are - and thank you so much for sharing the photos with us.
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Hi Tatsuo I have not words... Absolut in-cre-di-ble...
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Maggy, maybe is it possible to send Tatsuo a Forest Medal, even if he has't participate? :) ;D
This is Narcissus foliosus from Morocco.
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Meu Deus!!! fantastic Tatsuo
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Tatsuo:
That image makes me think of a fancy cream dessert.
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This is Narcissus foliosus from Morocco.
That's a wild beauty, Rafa :D
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Thank you for your comments, all :)
I'm still getting to grips with all the various awards at the shows/committees etc. Confused.com
Me, too Matt. FCC AGM GM... that's too complicated ??? ;D
That image makes me think of a fancy cream dessert.
It's a kind of fartal cream, Arnold :o
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My goodness, my heart nearly jumped out of my chest! All right, you may now laugh - below is Tatsuo's clone of the same plant growing in Yorkshire this morning.
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It is still very lovely, Anne.
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Quite so, the flowers are just as lovely and if anything the long, tall scapes give her a graceful air.
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- below is Tatsuo's clone of the same plant growing in Yorkshire this morning.
That clone seems to combine the attributes of var petunioides and (no longer valid) var clusii, a flat corona with upward facing flowers!
Does it come true from seed ;)
cheers
fermi
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My goodness, my heart nearly jumped out of my chest! All right, you may now laugh - below is Tatsuo's clone of the same plant growing in Yorkshire this morning.
Thank you for posting the picture, Anne. It's very interesting to compare same clones in different condition :)
That clone seems to combine the attributes of var petunioides and (no longer valid) var clusii, a flat corona with upward facing flowers!
I think both have upward facing flowers, Fermi ;)
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Narcissus cantabricus ‘clusii’ :) Its stems are longer than usual year but form a larger dome on the pot 8)
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That last image is a useful side-by-side comparison.
Tatsuo, what kind of potting mixture do you use for your bulbs?
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I think we need a new show class for cushion narcissus!
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I think both have upward facing flowers, Fermi ;)
Hi Tatsuo,
I like your forms, as Anne says they are perfect "cushions"!
This is the form of Narcissus cantabricus var petunioides I grew from seed many years ago (and sadly lost :'( ) which had outward facing flowers with much less scalloping on the corona,
cheers
fermi
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Tatsuo, what kind of potting mixture do you use for your bulbs?
See the picture below, Matt. I use same soil for all bulbs. I use pumice, kanuma and akadama blend. The largest grains for bottom of the pot, middle ones for top dressing and the finest ones for growing medium with some perlite and charcoal chips. No organic matter for avoiding root/bulb rot during our deadly heat and humid summer. Pushing several pellets of slow release fertiliser (5-10-15) into the soil when their leaves pushing out soil surface and regular feeding with diluted organic liquid fertiliser (3-2-2) once a week. When the flowers over, 2000 fold dilution of dibasic potassium phosphate instead of the organic liquid fertiliser.
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This is the form of Narcissus cantabricus var petunioides I grew from seed many years ago (and sadly lost :'( ) which had outward facing flowers with much less scalloping on the corona,
Thank you, Fermi :) I'm sorry for you've lost that so beautiful seedling :(
Here are my petunioides from 2 defferent source, from JJA (seedlings) and Van Tubergen (the clone, same as Anne's). They look 'upward' rather than 'sideward' ;)
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Thanks Tatsuo, that's really instructive. Seeing the quality of your plants as well as the mineral soils that bulbs grow in the wild, they can clearly do without organic matter under the right regime. We're not so warm here but do struggle with humid, wet conditions at times so I'm planning on increasing the drainage/aeration in my potting mix even further this season. What proportion of charcoal chips do you use? I presume it's only a small part of the mix?
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What proportion of charcoal chips do you use? I presume it's only a small part of the mix?
They look like crushed gravel. The size is same as or a bit bigger than the soil graine. Yes, 2 handfull charcoal chips to 10 litter blened soil at a rough estimate.
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Wonderful cantabricus and petunioides, Tatsuo.
Narcissus albidus ex SF110 again. I have 5 bulbs with 6 flowers from 4 of them. The one in the centre has a smaller flower but with a rolled back edge to the corona.
Narcissus cantabricus
Narcissus 'Mitimoto' and
Narcissus bulbocodium flowering in the garden
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Beautiful hoops, Roma.
Matt - doesn't Ian Y use an equivalent mix for his bulbs - just grit with a little leaf-mould? I'm thinking if there is no organic material, it might be possible, as Ian does, to reuse the compost, as it could be sterilised.
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That's right Anne, Ian uses 2 parts each of grit and sharp sand with one part leaf mould. I believe he just mixes in a bit of fresh leaf mould and bonemeal with the old mix at repotting time as the organic matter breaks down. There's also Paul C's method for frits in Seramis/cat litter. I'd be tempted to go for such a mineral-only mix, but think you then need to be much more attentive with watering and feeding.
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Wonderful cantabricus and petunioides, Tatsuo.
Narcissus albidus ex SF110 again. I have 5 bulbs with 6 flowers from 4 of them. The one in the centre has a smaller flower but with a rolled back edge to the corona.
Narcissus cantabricus
Narcissus 'Mitimoto' and
Narcissus bulbocodium flowering in the garden
Thanks, Roma. Your N. albidus ex SF110 and N. cantabricus are so good!
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Narcissus ‘Coo’. A wonderful hybrid between bulbocodium and cyclamineus. Thank you, Anne :)
Narcissus ‘Don Stead’ Another famous hybrid hoop from Craigton Road, Aberdeen ;)
Narcissus cantabricus, JJA 699.814. A good form seedling.
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Narcissus bulbocodium var. pallidus, JJA 696.600. The first flowers from seeds :)
Perhaps paler one is a hybrid ???
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It is pale though. How pale is pallida supposed to be? Nice to see Coo happy with you.
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Blanchard says:
...pale to dark primrose yellow, quite variable...
Remember this is a botanical variety, not a cultivar and grown from seed. I'd say the variation your plants, Tatsuo are within the correct range.
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You can see Ian Y's plants (fairly uniform in colour, so perhaps built up from one bulb/clone?) here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2004/200304/log.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2004/200304/log.html)
and here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2006/050406/log.html
(http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2006/050406/log.html)
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So you can - wow, that Narcissus rupicola marvieri is LOVELY!
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...wow, that Narcissus rupicola marvieri is LOVELY!
Quite. It's one on my wish list, but doesn't seem to come up on the lists very often :'(
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You can see Ian Y's plants (fairly uniform in colour, so perhaps built up from one bulb/clone?) here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2004/200304/log.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2004/200304/log.html)
and here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2006/050406/log.html
(http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2006/050406/log.html)
Seed raised from wild collected seed, Matt
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They're lovely plants, the primrose yellow is a great colour on the wee hoops. I received seed of this variety in the seed ex this year and hope I'll eventually end up with as good a looking potful in a few years.
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Thanks, Anne and Matt. The corona edge of the paler flower is recurved and ruffled, so I thought perhaps it's a hybrid.
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Little expedition in Málaga.
N. gaditanus
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N. fernandesii
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N. cantabricus
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N. papyraceus and N. cantabricus
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Eagerly-awaited some spring daffs from Andalucia!
What a pleasant N. gaditanus!
Thank you Rafa!
Gerd
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Eagerly-awaited some spring daffs from Andalucia!
What a pleasant N. gaditanus!
Thank you Rafa!
Gerd
Yes, Yes Yes ---- thank you Rafa!
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Heaven! Thanks, Rafa. :D
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Seed raised from wild collected seed, Matt
Was that from the collection SBL 237, Maggi?
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Thanks, Anne and Matt. The corona edge of the paler flower is recurved and ruffled, so I thought perhaps it's a hybrid.
Tatsuo, it's hard to tell from the photo, does the flower have any pedicel at all?
The illustration in Blanchard does show a bit of flaring to the corona, but the text does not mention this.
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Was that from the collection SBL 237, Maggi?
Don't know, Matt- I'll have to go see if I can find them now......
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Sorry Maggi! :-[
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Don't know, Matt- I'll have to go see if I can find them now......
Cor, that took some doing - there's 100s of the little devils out there! It's ABS 4661 - an Archibald Blanchard and Salmon collection
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Little expedition in Málaga.
Wow :o
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Cor, that took some doing - there's 100s of the little devils out there! It's ABS 4661 - an Archibald Blanchard and Salmon collection
Thank you! :-*
Not one I've noted before. Your plants have good form.
PS: I'm sure you meant "little darlin's" ?? ;)
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This little beauty was given to me some days ago...still in bloom today!
Narcissus bulbocodium obesus ?
http://flora-on.pt/index.php?q=Narcissus+bulbocodium (http://flora-on.pt/index.php?q=Narcissus+bulbocodium)
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Tatsuo, it's hard to tell from the photo, does the flower have any pedicel at all?
The illustration in Blanchard does show a bit of flaring to the corona, but the text does not mention this.
Yes, both flowers have pedicel, Matt. Thank you for showing me the line drawings, that's similar to mine ;)
The flower size is much larger than I expected. It's almost twice as large as ‘Don Stead’.
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Little expedition today, returning from Madrid
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few more
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Rafa, these Narcissus cantabricus and N. x susannae are almost beyond words in their beauty. Exquisitely beautiful.
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the last pictures, and a little comparative Jonquils for those that are confusing about it.
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also two more pictures, a Narcissi composition (don't worry there were thousands of N. cantabricus, N. triandrus. pallidulus and many hybrids). The other one is a sight of the village, I took this picture in a little hill full of houses, built on the Narcissus plants (a protected species in Madrid, by the way)
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Rafa, what amazing sights you show us in these pictures. Truly stunning plants. I hope that no more houses will be built on them.
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Truly stunning series of pictures Rafa thanks for sharing - it would have been great to have been with you to see such excuisit beuties but your pictures are a good consolation.
Sadly across the world the plants are protected while the land they need to grow on is not - I share your frustration Rafa.
Is the curve of the tube on N. Fernandesii significant?
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When you want Ian! :)
Yes I think it is very important this character. My friend Fernando Ureña, who is an expert in this section, is making a huge and meticulous study of Jonquillas, measuring the "yellow" and "green" parts in the plant in many localities per species, many plants per locality, with the same measure tools, meassuring by the same (important!) hand and he is contrasting the results in a graphic. The results in all the species have a very clear draw. Species like N. cordubensis, N. baeticus, N. rivas-martinezii, N. assoasus praelongus etc... seems to be N. fernandesii, N. assoanus... There are no so many species in fact. It seems all this complex of yellow species is reduced to this list:
N. gaditanus
N. jonquilla
N. assoanus
N. cerrolazae
N. fernandesii
N. willkommii
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Narcissus 'Mitimoto' from Anne
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Ashley, is yours upward facing flower, too?
Sorry Tatsuo, I spotted your question only today :-[
No it's not; (N. minor JJA702.305) flowers here are horizontal or slightly below. They're also very variable in size and height, and consistently so.
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Rafa, you take my breath away as always - what is the proper name for that hybrid at the moment? And thank you for the jonquilla information. I'm almost afraid to look at mine, in case they don't match!
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Sorry Tatsuo, I spotted your question only today :-[
No it's not; (N. minor JJA702.305) flowers here are horizontal or slightly below. They're also very variable in size and height, and consistently so.
Thank you, Ashley :) I've got the answer by my self 2 days later I asked you ;) http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12600.msg322930#msg322930 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12600.msg322930#msg322930)
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Thank you for sharing the wonderful wild daffodil pictures, Rafa :o :) 8)
A beautiful bicolour hoop, Yann :D
By the way, why these posts suddenly jumped to "January" thread ??? ??? ???
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The correct name is N. x susannae. I notice this hybrid could have pure white or ivory color forms depending the N. cantabricus form, in this cross, that also could be ivory or white. I only have seen variability in color of N. cantabricus in central spanish localities. As you go down to the south N. cantabricus becomes bigger, with corones less crenulated and homogeneous in color forms which are pure white.
I was wrong introducing this name N. x matritensis, it's quite complex to explain... In any moment N. x matritensis was considered the hybrid just for this plants from Central Spain, as N. cantabricus are really different from the localities from the south, but all of them are the same N. cantabricus and it is just a variability of the species, so the valid name is N. x susannae.
N. albicans its only possible in places where N. bulbocodium subsp. bulbocodium and N. cantabricus are present. They make fertile species called N. albicans, and at the same time they make non fertile hybrids, called N. x neocarpetanus nothovar. romanensis that have a range of forms depending who was the mother. When N. cantabricus is completely fade, in the same places it grows a group of plants that reminds southern localities of N. cantabricus, but they are in fact new crosses between N. cantabricus and N. albicans. This is the confusion I think, by considering this big N. cantabricus are N. albicans.
Conclusion, there are:
- N. cantabricus very variable in forms and colours
- N. albicans and a range of hybrids, in meeting poits of N. cantabricus and N. bulbocodium. There are N. albicans that remids the big forms of N. cantabricus from the southern localities.
So, the hybrids are
- N. x susannae (N. cantabricus x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus)
- N. x litigiosus (N. albicans x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus) I never seen it
Sorry about it, this genus is a real problem... very very complex in some cases.
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Matt, I think I'll call it tananicus (hort) - as long as I list it with a photo and description, people will know what to expect. ::)
From the article Narcissus in North Africa by Mike Salmon in the RHS Daffodil Yearbook 1986-7:
Narcissus albidus and its varieties
The distinction of being the most frequently occurring Narcissus with white flowers must go to Narcissus albidus and its varieties. They are found in the Rif, var. albidus throughout the Zaian Mountains, var. zaianicus; the Middle Atlas, subsp. albidus, the western High Atlas, var. tananicus; and the northern half of the Anti Atlas, var kesticus...
Narcissus albidus var. albidus has the smallest flowers, which are held upright on very short perianth tubes below a wide, bowl-shaped corona. This is the plant in cultivation both here and in the United Sates as N. bulbocodium tananicus.
...The true N. albidus var. tananicus has a restricted distribution in the western High Atlas where it is found in open, north-facing limestone slopes. It is similar to the last variety [N. a. var. albidus] but differs in having a relatively short perianth tube and funnel-shaped corona.
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Ah - I do have that issue Matt. I must read it. Re-reading Rafa's posts above, it's no wonder we are all confusus.. ???
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Even more confusing, it is reported in the latest Daffodil Society Journal that we are now to use the following name changes:
N.alpestris ..becomes.... N. pseudonarcissus moschatus
N. bulbocodium conspicuus ............N. bulbocodium quintanilha (!)
N. bulbocodium citrinus..................N. gigas
N. fernandesii var fernandesii, N. fernandesii var cordubensis, and N. fernandesii var henriquesii all become N. flavus!
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Where does N. jonquilla fit in - or do I really want to know?
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It's a right old mess and no mistake! I'm not sure that N. gigas or N. flavus will mean anything to me, especially when the latter plants all look so different. I'm leaving my labels as they are.
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This is name battle, but the fact is that there are 6 species in Peninsula Iberica of jonquil, for the moment. It is possible new (TRUE!!) species in our country and also in our brother country Portugal. Peniunsula Iberica always surprise...
These are the plants:
Narcissus jonquilla
Narcissus fernandesii
Narcissus willkommii
Narcissus gaditanus
Narcissus assoanus
Narcissus cerrolazae
Also there is another plant called "N. baeticus" which is in fact a N. assoanus with longger perianth tube that grows in Córdoba. Also there is another little assoanus called rivas-martinezii, but are there so important and different characters to give them such a taxonomical value? I don't think so. Maybe variants, or subsp. as maximum level, to me.
Same case with N. iohannis. To me it is another subsp. from N. triandrus, not a species.
N. moschatus, moleroi, alpestris.... to me are the same species.
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N. moschatus, moleroi, alpestris.... to me are the same species.
They are very distinct in my garden Rafa, but I haven't seen the range of variability in the wild.
Is N. cordubensis now sunk in N. fernandesii?
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Maybe this name is accepted in KEW, IPNI etc.. but we studied the type locality of N. cordubensis, and that we found is a huge population of N. fernandesii.
I have aslo noticed that the plant that it was introduced as N. cordubensis (probably collected in Grazalema) is Narcissus cerrolazae. Many of yours are growing this plant under a wrong name. This is the picture from the Narcissus cordubensis type locality, as you can see, it is just a N. fernandesii. In my oppinion this species, is not valid. And the other picture is from my friend Joaquín Ramírez, I distroyed it a little bit to show you the most important characters, marked in red. This plant was described a long time ago, and the "authorities" in this fieldand rejected it just saying "no, it is Narcissus jonquilla" ?¿?¿!!! without beeing sumitting to testing with the scientific method. The person who describe it, used the Scientific Method, desmostrating rigorously with evidences of its validity.
We don't know exactly the distribution range of this species.
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I have the plant you call Narcissus cerrolazae! But on the internet it says this is a synonym of Narcissus flavus :-\
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Here is the paper http://www.serraniavirtual.com/download/pdf/NUEVA%20ESPECIE%20DEL%20G%C3%89NERO%20NARCISUS.pdf. (http://www.serraniavirtual.com/download/pdf/NUEVA%20ESPECIE%20DEL%20G%C3%89NERO%20NARCISUS.pdf.)
Now everything is 'flavus'.... no comments.
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KEW, RHS etc... should list Narcissus cerrolazae as accepted species, because it's a very good species, easy to recognize if you know a little bit the spanish and portuguese plants of this genus.
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As quickly as they opened in recent warmth my green house Narcissus are going over :'(
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Rafa it is fascinating to see your native Narcissus and their hybrids
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Here is the paper http://www.serraniavirtual.com/download/pdf/NUEVA%20ESPECIE%20DEL%20G%C3%89NERO%20NARCISUS.pdf. (http://www.serraniavirtual.com/download/pdf/NUEVA%20ESPECIE%20DEL%20G%C3%89NERO%20NARCISUS.pdf.)
Now everything is 'flavus'.... no comments.
I can't access the paper from the link. It is frustrating for all when an agreement cannot be made on names. A very big symposium is needed! With ALL botanists invited.
Even as gardeners, it is difficult to call plants with the same name when they seem to be so distinct. As a nursery person, I wonder how to tell my customers what they are buying!
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Try this link, Anne: http://www.serraniavirtual.com/download/pdf/NUEVA%20ESPECIE%20DEL%20G%C3%89NERO%20NARCISUS.pdf (http://www.serraniavirtual.com/download/pdf/NUEVA%20ESPECIE%20DEL%20G%C3%89NERO%20NARCISUS.pdf)
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;D ;D ;D Thanks, Matt. I think I understood the Latin bits better than the Spanish, to my shame.
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Here is the paper http://www.serraniavirtual.com/download/pdf/NUEVA%20ESPECIE%20DEL%20G%C3%89NERO%20NARCISUS.pdf. (http://www.serraniavirtual.com/download/pdf/NUEVA%20ESPECIE%20DEL%20G%C3%89NERO%20NARCISUS.pdf.)
Now everything is 'flavus'.... no comments.
can't get that link to work - but found this : http://www.montecorto.com/info/narcissus.pdf (http://www.montecorto.com/info/narcissus.pdf)
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I think there may a problem with some browsers or other www-techie-widgets recognising the script, changing 'É' to '%C3%89'. It seems to occur intermittently for me. Thankfully your second link takes us to the same paper problem-free...now to brush up the Spanish...
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Thanks Maggy ;)
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I read somewhere recently (brain will slowly recall the source at some point - might have been Jefferson-Brown?) that if you find a pollen parent isn't successful or has poor fertility you can try microwaving the pollen for a few seconds then mixing it with fresh pollen before applying it to the stigma. Sounds a bit 'Frankenstein', but there might be some science behind it that could make it work?
I think I've found the source where I read about the microwaving trick: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Albuca (http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Albuca)
Two clones are often necessary to produce seeds but exceptions such as Albuca spiralis do exist. In the event that only a single clone exists, seeds can be made by microwaving the pollen for 15-20 seconds, then mixing with fresh pollen and applied twice a day to the pistil for several days.
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'applied twice a day to the pistil for several days' - I'm going to need MORE minions!