Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Bulbs => Ian Young's Bulb Log - Feedback Forum => Topic started by: Mavers on November 13, 2014, 02:30:21 PM

Title: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Mavers on November 13, 2014, 02:30:21 PM
It must be difficult to know what to write for us at this time of year Ian. The info about the Swedish peat & accompanying photo of the new peat & rock bed is interesting. It must have been a wonderful trip.
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Ian Y on November 14, 2014, 08:37:31 AM
Mike

It does become a problem filling the Bulb Log when the days are dark and the weather is so bad that I cannot get into the garden never mind taking any pictures.
I have a massive back catalogue of photographs that I have not used in the bulb log that I cold fall back on but I do like to use current material.

It was not the best time of year to visit Gothenburg for seeing the garden but it was a delight to spend time with my many friends over there.

In the meantime I am sitting in front of my SAD light keeping busy writing the chapters for Erythroniums in Cultivation.
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Leena on November 15, 2014, 07:30:36 AM
In the meantime I am sitting in front of my SAD light keeping busy writing the chapters for Erythroniums in Cultivation.

I'm sure many are eagerly waiting for Erythronium chapters, I am. :)
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Ian Y on November 15, 2014, 07:17:09 PM
Chapter 1 - SEED is well on the way to being finished Leena but you will have to wait as I do not intend to post any until the start of next year.

Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Leena on November 16, 2014, 05:47:57 AM
I can always wait for the good things, it is like waiting for seeds to germinate and grow, and finally flower. :)
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Allan Krijgsheld on November 24, 2014, 03:28:36 PM
Hello Ian,

First of all I want to thank you for all the information you are sharing in your bulb log. I like it very much, especially the information about sowing is very helpful for me.

In your bulb log 46/14 your are talking about a small light system for the home grower. I don't know much about the situation in the UK, but these kind of led light systems are available in the Netherlands. Some people use it to grow Cannabis, but it is not forbidden to use it for Narcissus or other plants. At the moment I use a led light to help my seedlings through the winter. I just start to use it, so I don't have much experience, but I think it is working fine.
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Ian Y on November 24, 2014, 04:23:27 PM
Hello Allan and welcome to the forum.

I will search about and see what LED  lights are available for small scale growers.
They would need to be affordable both to purchase and to run before I would consider them. Please keep us informed of your experiences with your lights.

Thank you also for your kind words it is always encouarging to get such feed back on my efforts.

Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: johnw on November 24, 2014, 05:54:31 PM
Ian / Allan  - The Heliospectra set up covering an area 9' x 9' is available from Texas at US$2850.  I have a call in to my former colleagues to see what they can supply in LED for the home situation.  They said there is such a thing.  I'll report back.

johnw 
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: brianw on November 24, 2014, 10:31:07 PM
LEDs are very cheap to run, but not to buy, and some notorious unreliable unfortunately. The larger commercial units seem to be very reliable. Recent Which CA forums show smaller units often very poor. A new fitted kitchen here 18 months ago had 14 work-top display units fitted and 5 failed in a few months. The whole batch were replaced and so far none of those have failed. As plants seem really only to need red and blue LEDs not sure about looking at such growing conditions. Maybe these run cooler, as over heating of stressed control gear seems to be the reason for unreliability.
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Mavers on November 26, 2014, 11:51:36 AM
I'm looking forward to the Erythronium info you have prepared for us Ian.

I find the dull, short daylight hours of this time of year difficult too Ian, it's a comfort to know others feel the same. It's the reason I became interested in snowdrops in the first place as I found the new shoots appearing above ground lifted my spirits immensely.

Sorry I haven't responded before, it's difficult to keep up with all that's posted on this lively forum. 
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Ian Y on November 27, 2014, 09:45:42 AM
It is another very dull day Mike, and I am sat in front of my SAD light working on chapter 2, the bulb, of the Erythroniums in Cultivation.

The winter flowering plants certainly help lift our spirits but I can absolutely recommend using an approved SAD light, you will notice a difference within a few days of using it.

It is not just the plants that crave more light in winter than we get in our Northern latitude.
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Mavers on November 28, 2014, 11:38:53 AM
I have never used one Ian so will look into buying an approved lamp.

The weather has been very gloomy here too. I finish work at 1pm on Fridays & cant wait to see my garden & greenhouse in the daylight.
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Roma on November 28, 2014, 12:51:11 PM
If it's anything like here you'll still need a torch
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: johnstephen29 on November 28, 2014, 05:50:56 PM
Your daylight hours must be short Roma?
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Roma on November 28, 2014, 07:31:42 PM
In theory, John we should be getting about 7 hours of daylight but it's been so dull lately it's difficult to see things properly in the greenhouse even at midday.  Last Sunday was an exception with at least 6 hours of sun which is about the total for the previous two weeks.
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: johnstephen29 on November 28, 2014, 09:51:46 PM
Yes it's been really dull and wet down here, what's keeping me going is the thought that in less than a month the days will start to get longer, though the weather is usually at its worse then
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: johnstephen29 on November 29, 2014, 08:59:00 PM
Hi Ian can I first say how much I am enjoying your bulb logs, they are really informative. I have been looking at the last few months logs again & I really like the new staging you have in the frit house, do you mind if I ask you where you got it from, I could do with some staging like that myself or something similar. Thanks John
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Maggi Young on November 29, 2014, 09:07:24 PM
Hi John, the staging is from Two Wests and Elliott www.twowests.co.uk/‎ (http://www.twowests.co.uk/‎)   several other forumists and friends  have bought their staging and frames and spoke well of them so we went with that firm too- excellent service and good quality staging - they'll make to  fit if you've got an odd space to fill, too.  See some about it  here :  http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2013Jul311375281392BULB_LOG_3113.pdf (http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2013Jul311375281392BULB_LOG_3113.pdf)
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: johnstephen29 on November 29, 2014, 09:29:39 PM
Thanks for the link Maggi I'll take a look.
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: johnstephen29 on November 30, 2014, 10:28:36 AM
Hi Maggi I hope you don't mind me asking another question?, with these soil warming cables would you still have to put up bubble wrap for winter protection?
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Maggi Young on November 30, 2014, 02:45:48 PM
We never put up bubble wrap in winter, John. The soil warming cables should protect the actual bulbs if there is a really bad freeze and any which have above-ground growth in winter are amazingly good at coping with a freeze.  Nearest we have ever come to any sort of overhead protection has been to use a covering of horticultural fleece over them when it's gone really low and threatened to stay there- but we haven't even done that in most cases - which may, of course, be why we've lost some stuff over the years. But we try to grow them as tough  as we can!  Amazing how much cold the leaves and flowers of the winter flowering bulbs can take in winter - they may flatten for a while  but pick up again.

I'll ask Ian to speak about this in a log soon.
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: johnstephen29 on November 30, 2014, 09:21:33 PM
Thanks Maggi I was just wondering if I could have the same kind of set up in my greenhouse, i don't only have bulbs in there as you saw in the photos I posted last month so I wonder if it would work.
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Maggi Young on November 30, 2014, 09:29:44 PM
Since we don't have any heat  in the glasshouse, apart from the soil-warming cables, I'm not sure how they would work with your need to have the glasshouse kept completely frost free for your range of plants, John. Someone here  will  know better than us about that - there are plenty here who do keep a house frost free I'm sure.  :)
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: brianw on November 30, 2014, 10:11:04 PM
Apologies for putting this in the Bulb Log but it follows on.
To cut the costs in the heated end on my greenhouse I clad the outside with plastic sheet, held to it by bamboo canes wired to the aluminium between the sheets. Reduces to some extent the heat losses from the aluminium extrusions and reduces the airflow over the glass.
All looks quite pleasantly rustic.
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Maggi Young on November 30, 2014, 10:25:11 PM
That sounds interesting, Brian - have you got a photo  to let us see? I can't quite imagine hot  it works. Is it easy with the bamboo  to keep the wind from ripping it off?
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: brianw on December 01, 2014, 08:40:07 AM
This is 2 recycled greenhouses joined end to end. a 12'x8' + 8'x8', from that good old English/Scottish BaCO company, about 40 years old. Needed some corrosion cleaning off and a few new bolts and glass but otherwise fine. Only the 8'x8' end is heated. The internal partition is twinwall polycarbonate too.
The end and side you can see is just Wickes roofing grade polycarbonate clamped against the frame by twisting wires passed through a drilled hole in the extrusion at the appropriate point between the sheets. Thought of all sorts of other ways but canes seemed the obvious and I had them. This is the north and west sides. The roof will be covered in 3mm acrylic sheet, just laid on the top and hung from the ridge, shaped round the roof vents, and fixed similarly with canes to the south side. I had these on a previous greenhouse and had fortunately acquired them from a company that had used them as office partitions; free. The intention is to remove them in summer, although really only the south faces need shading much. The north long side of the greenhouse faces (10' away) a high evergreen hedge with a topped copper beech in it, hence the leaves. Will probably install some frames down that side.
Title: Re: Bulb Log 46– 12/11/2014
Post by: Maggi Young on March 17, 2015, 11:18:43 AM
This is a post made by Paul Cumbleton in  a South African Bulbs thread ( http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12660.msg328112#msg328112 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12660.msg328112#msg328112))


Returning to the subject of LED & other forms of lighting, I hope it will be useful to point out a large misunderstanding that has persisted for a long time. This is the belief that alpines and other plants grow more compactly in the wild than they often do in cultivation due to being exposed to higher levels of UV radiation. This is actually not true. In his bulb log last November http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2014Nov121415787177BULB_LOG_4614.pdf (http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2014Nov121415787177BULB_LOG_4614.pdf) Ian showed the new LED system that Gothenburg is trialling and said that they were "high in UV" for healthy growth. If you check the spectrum of the lamps used on the company's website, you will see that actually these lamps cover the range of 400nm to 735nm  - which encompasses the photosynthetic spectrum but not the UV. In fact these lamps don't give out any UV light at all.

Science does not yet fully understand all the ins and outs of the specific effects of various wavelengths of light on growth, but experiments on alpines have shown that levels of UV light do not affect the stature of the plants. In fact, like most things, UV can damage plant tissue just as it can damage your skin if you stay out in the sun too long. Experiments show that most plants actually reflect the majority of UV light that falls on them in order to protect themselves from damage. And the experiments also show that of all groups tested, Alpines reflect the most UV (more than 90%).

As well as experiments, observations in the wild also point to the fallacy of the idea that it is the UV keeping plants compact. For example, many arctic and sub Antarctic plants inhabit misty coastal ranges where they receive very little UV and yet they are extremely stunted and dwarfed. Also, if UV intensity had a significant effect, you would expect to see latitudinal gradients in the stature of alpine plants, but this does not occur.

So what does keep alpines dwarf and compact? While the full story may not yet be in, the evidence all points to LOW TEMPERATURE as the key factor. Our alpines in cultivation grow out of character largely because we cannot keep them cool enough. It is also known that the overall intensity of light (of all the useful wavelengths, but not UV) has a part to play at least for some species.

For those who would like to know the references and read more about this, the best place to start is the discussion about all this on pages 114 to 119 of the book "Alpine Plant Life - Functional Plant Ecology of High Mountain Ecosystems" (second edition) by Christian Korner ISBN 3-540-00347-0


Paul

It all begs the question - what then are Gothenburg using the lights for, if there is no effect  re UV, as supposed ?  ???

Ian's impression was that it was the higher levels of all  the spectrum of light, including UV,  that was the point of these  lights.  Either he got the wrong end of the stick as regards the description he was given, or he and the GBG folks are all labouring under a misapprehension!


Hi Maggi,
The lights at Gothenburg would still be useful for increasing the day length (especially in their northerly latitude) and the overall light intensity the plants receive and these should lead to improved growth. The operating costs should also be cheaper than traditional grow lights. I would imagine that these are the reasons they are trialling them. Though the 'myth' that UV improves compactness is so ingrained that it would not be a surprise if they were also under that misapprehension.

Paul
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