Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => NARCISSUS => Topic started by: fermi de Sousa on April 13, 2014, 02:09:55 PM
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The first of the autumn flowering narcissus has opened!
I got this as Narcissus serotinus but I think it's now considered to be Narcissus obsoletus.
The second pic clearly shows the lobed corona,
cheers
fermi
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Delightful, Fermi - as our narcissus season comes to a close, yours begins again!
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Yesterday the Victorian Daffodil Society had a guest speaker at our meeting: Lawrence Trevanion from Canberra who has been doing a lot of breeding with different sections and brought some examples of autumn flowering daffs with N. elegans in their pedigree. I think he said that he'll be putting something on Daff.net at sometime. Here are a few of the cut-flowers he allowed me to take home, which I photographed this morning (warning in advance - blue skies evident in these pics!!! ;D )
cheers
fermi
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Fermi,
What a colourful flower! When I admire your pics I start to look forward to autumn although we experience a delightful spring!
Gerd
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Yes, Gerd, just as I'm enjoying the spring pics from your side of the equator!
This is the Narcissus viridiflorus I picked to take to the meeting (2 pics) and the next 2 pics are of another of Lawrence's - I think it's N. miniatus,
cheers
fermi
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Yesterday the Victorian Daffodil Society had a guest speaker at our meeting: Lawrence Trevanion from Canberra who has been doing a lot of breeding with different sections and brought some examples of autumn flowering daffs with N. elegans in their pedigree. I think he said that he'll be putting something on Daff.net at sometime. Here are a few of the cut-flowers he allowed me to take home, which I photographed this morning (warning in advance - blue skies evident in these pics!!! ;D )
cheers
fermi
How interesting. Great flowers too - now, the BIG question - do they smell as good as they look?
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How interesting. Great flowers too - now, the BIG question - do they smell as good as they look?
The scent is great, Maggi!
We've got them in the house at the moment and they're a lot more pleasant than straight Narcissus tazetta or Paperwhites.
cheers
fermi
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Very early for viridiflorus. Mine didn't make an appearance until the end of April last year.
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Fermi,
I have what I think is now obsoletus (which I received as miniatus) flowering very well for me here. Thanks Hans J for the original seed. They're doing brilliantly. N. viridiflorus is something I have never managed to grow successfully, it usually peters out, or at the very least completely fails to flower. I'm not sure I even have it any more. A real shame, as I would love to grow it successfully. :-\
Actually, while we're on the subject of autumn flowering Narcs..... does anyone here in Australia grow N. cavanillesii? It is an unusual species that has no cup/trumpet to speak of, and looks almost more like an autumn crocus in appearance. Does anyone here actually grow it? Perhaps I should put this in a separate topic asking people whether it is here in Australia? Thanks for any information anyone can give me as to whereabouts in Aus. 8)
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Paul,
please post a pic of your N. obsoletus to compare with mine.
Here are a few more Narcissus oboletus in flower in another pot and the Narcissus viridiflorus clump in the garden,
cheers
fermi
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Quite a vigorous form of obsoletus. So unlike the tiny flowers on single stemmed plants growing wild in Ibiza.
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.. So unlike the tiny flowers on single stemmed plants growing wild in Ibiza.
Those might've been "partied out" ;D
cheers
fermi
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I managed to avoid that side of Ibiza. ;D I don't understand the people who party all night and sleep (if that's the word) all day. Why bother spending the money on airfare, except that European air travel is ludicrously cheap.
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I find that they vary from year to year in substance and breadth of petals. I think it depends on feeding etc. Mine are very similar to your first ones, but I adore that later pic..... they do look so much more substantial and uniform that I have to wonder whether they are just a superior form. Well done. I can't grow viridiflorus..... can't work out why but I've tried it and failed a few times. :-\ I wish I could work out why.
Interestingly, after reading your post about your Lawrence T from Canberra giving you a talk..... I visited his garden later that afternoon for the first time in something like 20 years. He has some lovely stuff out in flower at the moment. I haven't processed the pictures, but I took a few photos while there.
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One of Lawrence's hybrids, 'First Stanza' is now in flower in our garden (and this one in a pot) - might be the same as one of the cut-flowers I showed earlier.
Paul,
this clump of Narcissus viridiflorus was planted 12 years ago - a few bulbs I bought from fellow forumist Gordon Julian when we visited his garden in Tasmania. I'd tried to establish it twice before without success so I'm glad these settled in so well,
cheers
fermi
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The seeds I got from Lawrence are now sprouting. 8)
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Paid a visit to Bill Dijk. He had two narcissi flowering: cantabricus and a hybrid with viridiflorus in its parentage and grand parentage. It had faded a bit.
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Good to hear you've seen Bill, Anthony - we've missed seeing him around these pages.
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Just received some hybrid tazetta seeds from Bill Welch in California. He's well worth contacting. He said in his email: "Do you know anyone in your country or elsewhere who is interested in tazettas and might also be interested in some seeds?--I want to get these distributed now that I have so many and they are so much more fertile than the parent varieties."
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Last year my Narcissus papyraceus flowered long after my N. viridiflorus was past. This year the latter is just above ground and my first papyraceus is looking good with the late afternoon sun behind it. These are show bought bulbs in their third season of flowering.
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Another little gem from the SRGC seed exchange. Narcissus albidus RW8853, sown Feb 2012.
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I contacted Bill Welch yesterday re the tazetta seed that Anthony D mentioned recently and he said that I could put his contact details on this forum as a source of tazetta hybrid seeds.
Bill the Bulb Baron (William R.P. Welch)
website: www.BilltheBulbBaron.com (http://www.BilltheBulbBaron.com)
(click on: Availability List)
William R.P. Welch, 1031 Cayuga Street Apt B, Santa Cruz, CA 95062, USA (831) 236-8397
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Some of the seeds Bill sent me last month are already germinating. Here is Narcissus viridiflorus flowering today.
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Those look good, Anthony - and seem to be keeping quite short and neat.
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Yes, I'm quite pleased with them this year. 8) The bulbs spent the latter part of spring and all summer in a black mesh "cage" to keep off the bulb flies. This was under the eaves where they get the afternoon sun, so a good baking and no watering. In March they were moved to a north facing position and given some water. I started off with two bulbs from Bill Dijk in April 2011. I've used some pollen on a couple of Narcissus papyraceus flowers.
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Lovely green flowers Anthony..nice group.. I must give it a go..
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I have twelve flowering bulbs. They're just grown in a pot in the garden. 8)
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Very impressed with your autumn daffs, Anthony.
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These could be called winter-flowering daffs, Narcissus 'Fyno'
cheers
fermi
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Just got around to looking at this thread, glad I did.
Fermi
Those N. elegans hybrids you picture appear to have amazingly thick texture in the cup. It almost looks like vinyl or leather. Is this a feature or elegans itself, or am I misinterpreting these photos?
Geo
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Hi George,
Sorry, I can't say as I've never grown the species itself, just the hybrids.
Some of the other Forumists may be able to answer you,
cheers
fermi
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The season has started in the northern hemisphere
Narcissus cavanillesii is the first, serotinus, elegans and miniature/obsoletus are in buds.
Poul
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A few more from today
1. Narcissus serotinus MK 6374
2 + 3 +4. Narcissus miniatus/obsoletus ex. Cadis
5. Narcissus cavanillesii
Poul
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Nice collection Poul, gonna try to find some seeds of cavanillesii, somptuous flowers
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Thank you Yann, if I get seeds, you can have some.
Poul
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Just the same time like the plants further north (very nice Poul)
- here is Narcissus cavanillesii ssp. mauretanicus
Gerd
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Narcissus elegans
Narcissus alentejanus
Narcissus perez-larae
Poul
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I hope to try these some day. Still awaiting my first flowering of autumn narcissi from seed. I have several pots of the white flowered ones that are now three years old so maybe next year?
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at least some more daffs here
1. + 2. Narcissus miniatus/obsoletus - originally from Cadiz
3. + 4. Narcissus x perezlarae - the form with a longer flower stalk - which is said it results from a cross
from miniatus mother x cavanillesii father
Gerd
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Sooooooo beautiful, Gerd! 8) I am full of envy.
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You grow them so well Gerd.
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Hi Narcissus Romieuxii has just started into growth in my greenhouse.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3928/15232431199_0d57ab09aa_c.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/126223196@N05/15232431199/)
Narcissus Romieuxii (https://www.flickr.com/photos/126223196@N05/15232431199/) by johnstephen29 (https://www.flickr.com/people/126223196@N05/), on Flickr
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Maggi & David,
Thank you both - fortunately you can't look at the lot of pots with minor results!
Gerd
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Some new flowers from today
1. Narcissus elegans
2. Narcissus miniatus/obsoletus with large flowers
3. Narcissus miniatus/obsoletus - orange tinted
4. Narcissus x alentejanus
5. Narcissus albicans - normally spring flowering (from seeds collected by Rafa)
Gerd
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Gerd,
Very nice Narcissus - the orange tinted miniatus/obsoletus is very interesting. The autumn Narcissus would more than likely do very well here in our part of California - something I've thought about, however I do not have much in this regard yet. I hope to get up to Iron Mountain this Wednesday - the local California flora certainly keeps me busy. Thanks for sharing the photographs.
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Which autumn flowering narcissus are good growers for the garden in open ground? (in Belgium, same climat as UK)
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I grow with success Narcissus Cedric Morris and some from the N. romieuxii /cantabricus family in a sheltered place in my garden in Denmark. They flower every year. A romieuxii hybrid has just shown the flower buds. Cedric Morris is just visible above ground.
The others like serotinus, miniatus(obsoletus), elegans need a dry hot summer rest to flower and are not suitable for the garden.
Poul
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Gerd, lovely Narcissus as always!
Some hybrids from my green house.
Narcissus x alentejanus
Narcissus x alleniae
Thanks to some friends in Germany.
Poul
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whouahh stunning :o
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Narcissus serotinus and N. x alleniae.
Narcissus broussoneti has just opened the first flower. I will post a pic later.
Poul
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Thank you for all sharing the pics of beautiful autumn flowering species and hybrids :D
At last, my first autumn narcissus seedling opened its flower today. Probably there will be more flowers next year (I'm hoping).
Narcissus miniatus, JJA 702.259, R. & R. Wallis 08-122. Turkey, Içel, E of Akdere. 185m.
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miniatus, but do the maximus ;) lovely flower Yamanaka
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miniatus, but do the maximus ;) lovely flower Yamanaka
Tu as raison, Yann :) Merci!
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Narcissus Papyraceus in flower, has really fragent flowers.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3943/15388618408_d800eae19e_c.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/126223196@N05/15388618408/)
Narcissus Papyraceus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/126223196@N05/15388618408/) by johnstephen29 (https://www.flickr.com/people/126223196@N05/), on Flickr
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Hi Johnstephen. I see too much "green stuff" in your yard.
Tear it out and make more flower beds. ;)
John B
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I hope your not meaning tare out the lawn? Sacralage :)
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I've just come back from Spain where I found some lovely autumn flowering bulbs, Colchicum, Scilla and Leucojum and also what I really wanted to see, Narcissus.
Would anyone care to let me know which species this is ? The stem has up to five flowers and it is fragrant. I think either N. serotinus or N. elegans but neither descriptions from the Blamey and Grey Wilson 'Mediterranean Wild Flowers' book fit it exactly.
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Looks like Narcissus miniatus?
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I've just come back from Spain where I found some lovely autumn flowering bulbs, Colchicum, Scilla and Leucojum and also what I really wanted to see, Narcissus.
Beautiful wild narcissus flowers, Jo :)
Here is Narcissus 'Sweet Claudia', bred by Komoriya Nursery in Japan. Parentage is N. viridiflorus x N. serotinus. Smell (I cannot say it as 'fragrance') is milder than viridiflorus.
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Quite elegant. 8)
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I've just come back from Spain where I found some lovely autumn flowering bulbs, Colchicum, Scilla and Leucojum and also what I really wanted to see, Narcissus.
Would anyone care to let me know which species this is ? The stem has up to five flowers and it is fragrant. I think either N. serotinus or N. elegans but neither descriptions from the Blamey and Grey Wilson 'Mediterranean Wild Flowers' book fit it exactly.
Oh my word- I am faint with excitement at the thought of multiple flowers on the stem and seeing these beauties in the wild :o 8) 8)
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:) :), it was a lovely sight Maggie, a whole olive grove of them. It was a neglected grove and the only one in the village that had them. All the other groves were highly managed and 'weed free' :o
From Anthony's info, thanks, and reading old Narcissus threads I agree that this must be N. miniatus. I am surprised though that there is no mention of this species in 'Wild Flowers of the Mediterranean', Blamey and Grey-Wilson. Has there been a lot of name changing since it was first published in 1988 ?
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Jo, sometimes it seems these plants change their names "more often than their socks" !
From the Kew Plant List:
Narcissus miniatus Donn.-Morg., Koop. & Zonn. is a synonym of Narcissus obsoletus (Haw.) Spach
The record derives from WCSP (data supplied on 2012-03-23) which reports it as a synonym (record 347508) with original publication details: Daffodil Snowdrop Tulip Yearb. 2005-2006: 22 2005.
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Mmm. I have a pot of Narcissus obsoletus seedlings that I hope will flower next year. N. malacitanus too.
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:) :), it was a lovely sight Maggie, a whole olive grove of them. It was a neglected grove and the only one in the village that had them. All the other groves were highly managed and 'weed free' :o
From Anthony's info, thanks, and reading old Narcissus threads I agree that this must be N. miniatus. I am surprised though that there is no mention of this species in 'Wild Flowers of the Mediterranean', Blamey and Grey-Wilson. Has there been a lot of name changing since it was first published in 1988 ?
Hi JO
Narcissus miniatus is no longer a valid name, it is a synonym of N. obsoletus but!, depends in which part of Spain you have seen these Narcissus as the populations in SW Spain are N. serotinus while going to the east all the way to Israel it is N. obsoletus. It is practically impossible distinguish between the two [accept the angle of the flowers, supposedly close to 90 degree in serotinus, which i do not find as a valid sign..], any way they have been separated for having different chromosome number: N. serotinus 2n=10 while N. obsoletus 2n=30.
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Some Narcissus in flower:
Narcissus obsoletus, Narcissus broussonetti and Narcissus viridiflorus
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And some more:
Narcissus elegans, Narcissus elegans IB, Narcissus x alleniae and Narcissus x perezlarae
It is really a pitty I hardly can see them - but I enjoy the fragrance at night. :)
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These beauties are growing as well for you as ever, Hans. It is a pleasure to see them.
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Oh Hans,
such abundance! :o
They look wonderful - I can imagine the scent (where is that scent button, Fred? ;D )
cheers
fermi
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Hi Oron, I'm not sure on east and west along that coast of Spain but I was inland of Valencia and a place called Gandia, is that east or west ? Unfortunately I didn't realise that I could have had a look for N. viridiflorus, I think I was near the right habitat at the right time ::)
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And some more:
Narcissus elegans, Narcissus elegans IB, Narcissus x alleniae and Narcissus x perezlarae
It is really a pitty I hardly can see them - but I enjoy the fragrance at night. :)
It is great pleasure to see these beauties flower so well. Here in the north we struggle to get just a few flowers.
Poul
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Jo, did you manage to get to El Torcal?
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Hi Oron, I'm not sure on east and west along that coast of Spain but I was inland of Valencia and a place called Gandia, is that east or west ? Unfortunately I didn't realise that I could have had a look for N. viridiflorus, I think I was near the right habitat at the right time ::)
Jo,
The area you have indicated is within the distribution of N. obsoletus,
you can see the maps of distribution of the different species here:
http://www.anthos.es/index.php?lang=en (http://www.anthos.es/index.php?lang=en)
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And some more:
Narcissus elegans, Narcissus elegans IB, Narcissus x alleniae and Narcissus x perezlarae
It is really a pitty I hardly can see them - but I enjoy the fragrance at night. :)
Hans,
Fantastic as usual... :o, thanks for showing
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Is Narcissus obsoletus of hybrid origin?
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And some more:
Narcissus elegans, Narcissus elegans IB, Narcissus x alleniae and Narcissus x perezlarae
It is really a pitty I hardly can see them - but I enjoy the fragrance at night. :)
Beautiful flowers, Hans :D
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Narcissus 'Autumn Little Moon', a Komoriya Nursery hybrid. Parentage: N. rupicola × N. serotinus
Some formists asked me how to make contact with the Komoriya Nursery.
Here is the nursery shop URL in eBay: http://www.ebay.com/usr/komoriya_nursery (http://www.ebay.com/usr/komoriya_nursery)
The nursery staff told me that they will sell some narcissus bulbs at eBay shop next June. They can export the bulbs from Japan to overseas.
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You can only import seeds to New Zealand.
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Of couse depends on the condition at your country, Anthony ;) NZ, AUS and US authorities requier very strict phytosanitary standards to plants from overseas :(
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So far no one has actually come forth to say they are certified to send bulbs here. :( Perhaps one day? Meanwhile, I have six months to wait and see if my seedlings will flower this time.
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Jo,
The area you have indicated is within the distribution of N. obsoletus,
you can see the maps of distribution of the different species here:
http://www.anthos.es/index.php?lang=en (http://www.anthos.es/index.php?lang=en)
Thanks for the link Oron, I was obviously in the east of Spain and it was N. obseletus that I found. It also shows me that we were far too far east for N. viridiflorus which looks as if it only occurs over by Gibralter. So I'm glad we didn't miss it.
I have Cyclamen persicum autumnale in flower at home from seed via John, it smells lovely, thanks ! Reminds me of that wood near Tel Aviv.
No David, in the end it was the opposite direction for us so we went towards a National Park that way.
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Hans, what a beautiful clumps! here there are also blooming all the autumn narcissi, included N. antiatlanticus, for first time, but I am not sure about this taxon.
Narcissus serotinus and N. obsoletus are very different in my oppinion. There are many morphological differences and a very clear distribution. Here is a very good work of comparison from my friend Jose Quiles http://www.florasilvestre.es/mediterranea/Amaryllidaceae/Narcissus_serotinus.htm (http://www.florasilvestre.es/mediterranea/Amaryllidaceae/Narcissus_serotinus.htm)
Sevilla is the meeting point between both species and from there N. obsoletus goes towards to the east and N. serotinus goes towards to the west. I think in Morocco are quite mixed, more than in Spain...
Note: Anthos, concerning Narcissus it is more confusing than helpful, there are all mixed it's a pity as it was a very useful tool...
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Hans, what a beautiful clumps! here there are also blooming all the autumn narcissi, included N. antiatlanticus, for first time, but I am not sure about this taxon.
Rafa,
Are there any photos of antiatlanticus from you? --- please!
Gerd
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I've not come across that name before - would be interested in seeing it. If you plant it with N. atlanticus will they annihilate each other?
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hahaha ;D yes! maybe it will be necessary to put them in different parts of the house.
Gerd I will try to make some fotos tomorrow
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Got this from a well known UK Rare Bulb nursery as Narcissus pachybolbus, and the original bulb was huge. Some 10 years later smaller offsets are flowering, but how do you tell it from N. papyraceus/N. panizzianus?
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some daffodils from middle and end of October
1. + 2. Narcissus serotinus - see colour and shape of tube
3. Narcissus miniatus/obsoletus from Crete
4. Narcissus miniatus x tazetta from Israel
5. Narcissus x alleniae - a form very near to miniatus
Gerd
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- and some more
1. Narcisus x alleniae - whitish
2. - 4. Narcissus viridiflorus - please note different shaped flowers
Gerd
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Fabulous. N. viridiflorus seems to be very difficult to obtain - if anyone can spare a bulb I would be most grateful!
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Fabulous. N. viridiflorus seems to be very difficult to obtain - if anyone can spare a bulb I would be most grateful!
Grows like a weed for me, but my bulbs are still in leaf.
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This one's flowering a lot earlier than the last two years;
Narcissus romieuxii 'Craigton Clanger'
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My that is early Wim.
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Fabulous. N. viridiflorus seems to be very difficult to obtain - if anyone can spare a bulb I would be most grateful!
Thank you Ralph. - Sorry, can't help with a bulb - this species does not multiply well here in cultivation.
Gerd
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Fabulous. N. viridiflorus seems to be very difficult to obtain - if anyone can spare a bulb I would be most grateful!
Have sent you a message.
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This one's flowering a lot earlier than the last two years;
Narcissus romieuxii 'Craigton Clanger'
Discussing just that here : http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12426.0 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=12426.0)
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This one's flowering a lot earlier than the last two years;
Narcissus romieuxii 'Craigton Clanger'
No sign of buds here yet (in pot)
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;D
Hi
This will be my only post under this topic but for some of us season goes on and on but I think these flowers are the last for us. Our daffodils are still flowering even though we have been through our waratah, tree peony, camellia and mollis azalea flowering seasons and we are well into our rose flowering season.
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Narcissus 'Lima's Shooting Stars'.
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Here is my first daff of the season - I grew it from seed many years ago as Narcissus cantabricus hybrid. Not an outstanding flower but it blooms reliably and increases well.
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It's OK for you lot in the Banana Belt I don't think I have a bud showing yet ;)
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Banana belt lol, I'm the same as you David plenty of growth but no buds yet.
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Wim is lighting his Narcissus??? ;D :o
Ralph: what a beauty
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Narcissus triandrus x serotinus 'Little Autumn Drop'
Probably I'm in the palm tree belt and no petticoat buds, too.
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Narcissus 'Lima's Shooting Stars'.
John
Not one I have seen before, but will definiteely add to my wish list. Who was the source?
Arthur
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Ringhaddy
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Some Narcissus flowering this afternoon including a new hybrid of wich one of the parents is N. obsoletus 'Orange' but no idea regarding the second
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Oron,
Once again I admire your great collection!
Some Narcissus flowering this afternoon including a new hybrid of wich one of the parents is N. obsoletus 'Orange' but no idea regarding the second
Maybe your orange coloured 'hybrid' has an unusual petal colour caused by unknown variant factors. I observed this phenomenon
also with 'normal' orange N. miniatus/obsoletus.
- please see my pic from Oktober 13 th!
Gerd
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Hi Gerd
Many thanks for your comments,
I grow the Orange form which you have shown earlier. Mine differs in the number of flowers, the size of inner petals and the way they are facing up but more than any thing else it is about half the size of the 'Normal' Orange form. This makes me think of an hybrid but off course you may be right that it is some kind of a variant factor.
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Crumbs, do you get seed from these Oron? I do like the one with the orange stripe.
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Crumbs, do you get seed from these Oron? I do like the one with the orange stripe.
Anthony, most of the Narcissus produce seeds but as they grow side by side i might have hybrids therefor i prefer growing them from division.
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Here is my preferred, N. tazzeta x obsoletus.
It is a rare, natural hybrid from north Israel. It is sterile but luckily divides well for me and is highly scented.
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Oron, you aren't the only one who prefers this extraordinary daffodil! :)
Gerd
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Must try reproducing it here, if I can get both species to flower.
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For being "a clanger", Narcissus romieuxii 'Craigton Clanger' looks way too nice.
This one flowered in March of this year and now he's at it again: Narcissus 'Mitimoto'
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Seed of Narcissus Jessamy sown many years ago flowered for the first time this week.
Generally don't have much luck with narcissus, narcissus flies usually find them, this one has done wellto escape.
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Narcissus albidus foliosus looking a bit odd. Not enough light here for autumn blooming narcissi :'(
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1 + 2. Some years ago I bought this as Narcissus cavanillesii, which it isn't. I think it is a form of cantabricus, but not foliosus as the pedicel is very short. I have grown it unprotected in a south facing bed for about 5 years.
3. Narcissus 'Cedric Morris' in an open frame. It is early this year.
Poul
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A few buds around but this is my first to open this season- Narcissus 'Taffeta'
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In a quick way two pics of the last Andalusian autumn daffodils plus a miniatus/obsoletus from Crete
Gerd
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For being "a clanger", Narcissus romieuxii 'Craigton Clanger' looks way too nice.
This one flowered in March of this year and now he's at it again: Narcissus 'Mitimoto'
Wim,
here the same 'problem' ;D.
Narcissus 'Nylon' has blossomed this year in March and now again.
But it come still enough bud for the spring. 8)
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Got this from a well known UK Rare Bulb nursery as Narcissus pachybolbus, and the original bulb was huge. Some 10 years later smaller offsets are flowering, but how do you tell it from N. papyraceus/N. panizzianus?
Well, the very useful key in the Daffodil, Snowdrop and Tulip Yearbook 2014 ("A translation of the key to species and subspecies of Narcissus in Flora Iberica") keys this out as N. papyraceus, not N. pachybolbos. Too late to ask for my money back!
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Here is another green one :) Narcissus 'Lima's Green Goddess'
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Very elegant. 8)
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Cool!