Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: WimB on January 03, 2008, 10:51:54 AM
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I have ordered some shortia seed from the Göteborg botanical garden but I have never tried sowing them before.
Is there anybody who could give me some advice about the sowing conditions (ground, temperature,...)
Thanks
Wim
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Use a peatbased compost. I use a mix of 2/3 fine grounded, moist peat and 1/3 of sand. Spread the seeds on the surface and sprikle with water to create good contact between the seeds and the sowing medium. Do not cover. Make sure you keep a high humidity. One way to do that is to cover the pot with a plastic film. Place the pot in light and a temperature of about 20 C. Protect from direct sun. The seeds will germinate in 2-3 weeks.
Place the grown-up plants in peat in shadow. Here a picture from Gothenburg Botanical Garden to show how they look there and a close-up from my own garden.
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Very nice. I think I may try to get some seed. Not grown these before.
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Thanks for the info, Kenneth. I'll certainly try it like that.
Somebody has e-mailed me that I should try sowing it on peat moss, so I'll try that too and see which technique works best.
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Hi, Wim,
we have grown Shortias and all the tiny ericaceous seeds on Sphagnum moss and we wrote about that in Journal Number 90. starting on page 39. Main problem is keeping the birds off!
We were inspired by the writings of Alec Duguid, in the Journal Number 72, page 259.
There is also an article, "Growth Trials on Sphagnum Composts by Dr. Henry Tod, from Journal 42, page 22.
I can send you an old paper copy of our article if you like and have no access to the Journal archive CD.
Indeed, I discoverI can send you all by email if you like! M
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Hello Maggi,
I would like it very much if you could e-mail me a copy of these articles. My e-mail adress is in my profile.
I can imagine the birds like this indeed. I've been keeping carnivorous plants in peat moss outdoors for a couple of years now and the blackbirds tend to take the moss for nesting or for looking for little grubs and worms beneath it.
Thanks in advance
Wim
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My pleasure, Wim, I am going to send it now!
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Hi, I am also growing Shortias, Shizacodon and Berneuxia from seed, we were lucky to get good seed set on our own plants so the seed was sown when ripe, the pods open and you can see the seeds clearly. I have also been lucky to get some of the large peat blocks which came from Sweden so I cut a slice from a block placed in a tray, the seed was sown on top then placed outside in a shaded area I had germination within a month so all the small seadlings are now under cover for the winter, hope they make it looking O/K at the moment, I send a picture of plants in the peat walls out in the garden. cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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Peat blocks are perfect for Shortia! As a matter of fact they sow themselves sponaneously there. In the Botanical Garden of Gothenburg selfsown Shortia grows on great walls of peat in hundreds.
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There is an issue of the NARGS Journal that is well worth having a look at (someone must have an index). I think it is the best Journal they ever produced. There is an article on the Diapensia Family by guru Steve Doonan. He recommends surface sowing Shortia seed on 50:50 coarse moistened peat and sharp granite grit. Place the pot in a plastic bag under fluorescent lights and wait.
A friend visited Taiwan in 2006 and 2007. He found S.exappendiculata on both occassions. You Diapensaceous types might be interested in a few pictures. If the last one is too small I can re-post separately at a larger size.
johnw
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Ian,
I assume a newly cut surface of a Swedish peat block is very devoid of "nutrition" I mean NPK and that stuff. Have you any comment on that. Do they survive on the little that is in the peat naturally or do you fertilize or do you move them very quickly? I have always believed that those that live on the peat walls in Göteborg were colonizing them when the blocks have been "enriched" by mosses, lichen and that ilk.
Göte
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Göte
I followed Steve's instructions, no fertilizer except for a tiny pinch of superphosphate mixed in with the peat. One year they grow very slowly and take 2+ years to get to .5-1cm across. Then, using the same method they are that big in less than a year. The tricky part is getting them from under plastic cover to full air - I punch a hole in the bag, 1 week later another small hole, the whole process takes me several months. Collapse can be sudden even with precautions - much the same as fully hardening off Jankeas which I have never managed to do. Only at the 1cm stage do I move them up into smaller pots with the same mix + some wood from a well rotten pine tree stump. I re-cover for a week or so and then gradually tilt the plastic dome OR move to a shady site during a foggy week. I feed them 1/4 strength or less only maybe once a month. Sometimes I get brave and put them in the peat bed straight away but they must be shaded the first year.
The autumn colour is glorious.
I will be interested to hear what Ian does.
I'm just about to prick out some Berneuxias, they seem less temperamental - famous last words.
johnw - spitting snow after a heavy rainstorm. 0c. Hideous weather.
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There is an issue of the NARGS Journal that is well worth having a look at (someone must have an index). I think it is the best Journal they ever produced. There is an article on the Diapensia Family by guru Steve Doonan.
johnw
The index is only from volumes 1 to 50, so I started looking in all the Bulletins
from 51 on. Fortunately, the article is in 51:2, the one with Gentiana sino-ornata
on the cover.
It used to be wonderful to see Steve's huge pots of Schizocodon and Shortia on
display at every Winter Study Weekend, with small plants for sale.
However, something happened and they all died. He explained why at a talk,
but I can't remember. I will look through my notebooks to find out why.
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OK. I found my notes.
Vine weevils girdled the stems and then a fungus took over and killed the plants.
Steve said cuttings are easy and flower the second year.
He's had seedlings flower in two years, but it usually takes three to five years.
Seedlings remain in suspended animation for a long time (just like rhododendron
seedlings) so you can prick out some and still have the original seedpot just
in case something happens to the transplanted ones.
and, from the Spring '93 issue of the American Rock Garden Society Bulletin:
Shortia ripens shortly after flowering and must be planted immediately.
Schizocodon capsules will not ripen until midautumn, and the seed remains
viable for several years.
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It used to be wonderful to see Steve's huge pots of Schizocodon and Shortia on
display at every Winter Study Weekend, with small plants for sale.
Ah, those were the days! The first time I went out west I was at the Winter Study Weekend in Victoria. Steve & Phil had a booth with the most incredible pans of Shortia including an unforgettable one of his hybrid 'Leona'. It was the first time I saw Shortias and Schizocodons for sale! I have slides of that sale table.
We invited both of them here to gives talks on Alpines and Growing in Pots and Phil gave a talk on ceramics. We still lust for more of Phil's amazing pots.
Some of the best talks we've ever had.
I had forgotten about the weevil problem but the fungus was even more disturbing at the time and we were worried that Leona would be lost. Wasn't the disease precipitated by the weakened condition of the weevil-ravaged plants?
Here's a shot from Steve's Grand Ridge Nursery from several years ago.
johnw
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I can send you an old paper copy of our article if you like and have no access to the Journal archive CD.
Indeed, I discoverI can send you all by email if you like! M
Maggi - Please do as everything is in storage at the moment including the cd! I had forgotten about the bird problem, they seem to know a good plant just like the weevil.
We're anxiously awaiting Peter Korn's talk here tomorrow night.
Spring has finally arrived and the snowdrops are looking happier.
johnw
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we were worried that Leona would be lost. Wasn't the disease precipitated by the weakened condition of the weevil-ravaged plants?
Yes, that was the impression I got, though the 1993 article mentioned
a fungal problem.
Am I reading correctly - do you still have a Leona?
Shall we all begin bidding?
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we were worried that Leona would be lost. Wasn't the disease precipitated by the weakened condition of the weevil-ravaged plants?
Yes, that was the impression I got, though the 1993 article mentioned
a fungal problem.
Am I reading correctly - do you still have a Leona?
Shall we all begin bidding?
Diane - I still have Leona but at the time of the Shortia "disease" outbreak we didn't. So we were worried it would be lost. Clever Steve would have repeated the cross if he had.
Leona does well here. We got it at Grand Ridge in 1995, so the problem was short-lived. I saw an incredible clump of it at Nick Nicou's in Connecticut - several metres across!!! Maria Galletti at Alpines Mt Echo was propagating it from Nick's clump but I can't recall if it was in her catalogue. You are pretty close to Grand Ridge, Steve is probably selling it.
johnw
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Diane - Sudden inspiration! You might talk to Philip MacDougall at Chlorophyllia about rooting you a Shortia 'Leona'. I'm fairly certain he has it. Hopefully you made it to Steve's????
johnw
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No, I haven't been off the Island since the Winter Study Weekend at the end
of February, but I'll be going to the U.S. in mid May.
I bought seeds of Shortia uniflora and Schizocodon soldanelloides var magnus
from Göteborg, and shared half of each packet with a friend. I sowed mine
into four clear covered containers and put one pair outside and the other on a
window sill above the heater in my living room. This was done April 4, and today
I have noticed a tiny green seedling in each of the inside containers. They might
be weeds that had got into my sphagnum peat bag, but they look quite different
from each other, so in any event, they are not one kind of weed.
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Hello,
Here are some pictures of my young seedlings of the seed I bought from the Göteborg botanical garden.
Only the ones sown on the peat-sand mixture have germinated thus far. I hope they'll make.
1) Schizocodon ilicifolius
2) Shortia uniflora
3) Schizocodon soldanelloides var. magnus
Greetz
Wim
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Wim - Those uniflora seedlings look lusty!
johnw
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Shortia galacifolia is always the first one out here, this one a seedling planted 2 years ago. It came out yesterday. Berneuxia thibetica almost out.
Excuse the Pieris seedlings in the photo, it is a pest the way it seeds about - by the 1,000's.
Diane - these are all growing in full sun so sure you will succeed in flowering in sun too. Note the reddish foliage from autumn and winter sun.
johnw - another brilliant day.
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Here is the Berneuxia, a tiny plant but rock hardy, planted last year.
As well a small Schizocodon soldanelloides seedling in full sun. The green segmented leaf was covered by a dead leaf.
johnw
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I just compared the leaves on my two Shortias. A galacifolia leaf is the size
of my palm (7.5 cm each way) and a uniflora leaf can be hidden by the end
of my thumb (2 cm each way).
Does this seem right?
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I just compared the leaves on my two Shortias. A galacifolia leaf is the size
of my palm (7.5 cm each way) and a uniflora leaf can be hidden by the end
of my thumb (2 cm each way).
Does this seem right?
Diane - The most variation in leaf size, toothing and shape that I've seen was in Schizocodon. S. uniflora of course can be big to tiny, ie var. minima.
A friend photostated all his various Schizocodon selections and it is a remarkable sight in black and white.
However I have never seen a S. galacifolia with leaves that big. Sound like life is too easy for it, unless it's a Galax ( kidding, but a great plant) Some Schizocodon, S. uniflora and S. galacifolia can all have leaves to 7cm, some to 12cm according to Peter Barnes. Can you imagine S. sinensis with leaves 13cm x 6cm!
- see
http://www.barnes-botany.co.uk/shortia.html.
Forgot to mention I do topdress with well-rotted manure every Spring keeping it away from the leaves and crown. however I never see resulting larger leaves just better growth and bulking up.
johnw
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I checked my garden map and there is a question mark beside S. galacifolia.
Checked the db, and I bought Galax aphylla from Rick Lupp in '97, which is
when the plants in that area were planted. So maybe it is Galax.
Here's a photo of it, and a photo of my only remaining Shortia, S. uniflora
grandiflora rosea from Bovee in Portland, Oregon. Really bug-chewed.
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I too have found Shortia weevil prone unless in lots of sun. My first S. uniflora came from Glenn Patterson in Vancouver, a remarkable clump at his former garden with very small leaves and pink flowers.
No question Diane, the S. galacifolia be Galax, another fine plant in Diapencaea. Also does well in full sun with great winter colour. Sadly I never see it for sale.
Here are a few Galax shots in NS on the 7th of March 2008. Ones in the shade are entirely green. Early in the 1900's the leaves were bundled and shipped by the train-carload from the south to NY and Boston for the florists!
Mine took years to bloom in shade and they now seed about moderately.
johnw
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Forgot to mention I do topdress with well-rotted manure every Spring keeping it away from the leaves and crown. however I never see resulting larger leaves just better growth and bulking up.
johnw
John, do you mean animal manure as in cow? horse? (I note the "well rotted") or do you mean compost?
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Diane - Here is the scan of various Schizocodon leaf shapes on the copy machine. I can send you a full-sized copy. Note for the correct scale the leaf in the bottom left hand corner should measure 3.5" (8.89 cm) across.
Shortias and Schizocodons must be very cold hardy as an acquaintance in Fredericton, New Brunswick grew many despite winter lows approaching -40c.
One could get (is) hooked.
johnw
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John, do you mean animal manure as in cow? horse? (I note the "well rotted") or do you mean compost?
[/quote]
Leslie - Either horse (preferred) or cow whatever I can get. Never the bagged garden centre variety which, here, never contains manure despite the labelling. Well-rotted (crumbly black) is merely a dream most of the time, I have yet to burn them though.
For instance the small galacifolia shown would get 1/2 to 1 cup of manure, sometimes with a tad of superphosphate (never treble superphosphate) mixed in - the worms do the rest.
johnw
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A good, strong pink flowered S. uniflora seedling which I haven't been able to photograph correctly in its position. The true colour is quite a bit darker, more like the out of focus shot of one bud, attached.
johnw - +11c
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Here are the same seedlings one month later (see my posting in this topic of the 20th of april),
it looks as if they enjoy themselves:
1) Shortia uniflora
2) Schizocodon soldanelloides var. magnus
3) Schizocodon illicifolius
Greetings
Wim
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These seedlings are looking very good, Wim 8)
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Thank you. It is very helpful to see what the seedlings
look like.
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Hello,
I have another question:
when should I transplant my seedlings (see pictures taken today).
The plants are:
1) Schizocodon illicifolius (biggest seedling: 0,5 cm diameter)
2) Shortia uniflora (biggest seedling: 1,3 cm diameter)
3) Schizocodon soldanelloides var. magnus (biggest seedling: 1 cm)
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Wim - You're doing marvellously with those Shortias! What's your mix?
Those in the middle photograph look as if they are ready to be transplanted but you could wait till autumn. I always wait for a week or more of cloudy, overcast weather and ALWAYS cover the flats with a dome with a tiny bit of ventilation opened very gradually. Having said that you your seedlings look so vigorous I am probably not the one to be giving advice.
My disasters usually come when the dome are removed completely.
johnw
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Thanks for the info John,
they are still in their original seeding mix: 1/2 rhinezand & 1/2 peat in a stone pot without holes. I took the cover off a couple of weeks ago while it was constantly raining here and the air humidity was over 70 %.
Or maybe they love it here because I talk to them every day ;)
Now it's very sunny and windy. So I'm going to take your advice and wait until it gets more cloudy and wetter.
Wim
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To follow up on this topic.
All the Shortia I sowed in 2008 died :'( after transplanting them. Since I'm quite stubborn when it comes to plants ;) I tried again with seeds in 2009. The picture here shows seedlings which were transplanted last year, in summer. They seem to be doing well, I've got Shortia illicifolius, Shortia soldanelloides and Shortia soldanelloides var. magnus. I'll give them another year before I transplant them to the garden.
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Very sad news Wim :( They are so lovely... and your seedlings seemed so strong
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Very sad news Wim :( They are so lovely... and your seedlings seemed so strong
Nicole,
the ones in the last picture are still alive. It were the seedlings which were photographed earlier in this thread which died. The ones the last picture were sown a year later.
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Wim - Great looking seedlings! We too have lost alot when transplanting young ones. Now I wait until they are at least 1-1.5cm across before transplanting and then put them back under a humidity dome for several months, then gradaully raise the dome over several weeks. I think our mix with all the grit may be a problem - but it keeps them alive in the early stages - as the rootballs fall apart so easily. After several years they seem to be very easy to move if early in the year.
Now you will need a very big garden for all those Shortias!
johnw
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I've been looking at my own little shortias and thinking perhaps it was time to transplant into small pots. But reading the above, maybe I'll leave them until the spring. The biggest are about 1cm across. They look quite "hard" in growth, I suppose because of being grown fully exposed to air (knitted cover tunnel which the wind blows through, and on grit rather than spaghnum.
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I've been looking at my own little shortias and thinking perhaps it was time to transplant into small pots. But reading the above, maybe I'll leave them until the spring. The biggest are about 1cm across. They look quite "hard" in growth, I suppose because of being grown fully exposed to air (knitted cover tunnel which the wind blows through, and on grit rather than spaghnum.
Lesley,
if I understand this correctly, you have them in the shade, but open to the wind? Do you have to water them a lot? Which soil have you used beneath the upper layer of grit? Which species are you growing?
I'm sorry for all the question, I'm just a curious guy... ;) ;D
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The species are galacifolia (in the picture I posted) and uniflora, still germinating but coming along nicely. Yes they are in shade in my tunnel which has a knitted cover rather than a plastic sheeting cover so wind and rain (as a fine mist) penetrate. I'm watering all my seed and small seedlings about once a week but we've had a quite wet summer with some rain on many nights as we sleep and a lot of daytime drizzle so they would otherwise have been watered probably every second day. But we've also had some very drying nor'west winds too (yesterday was a beastly one) so that has to be combated with watering when necessary.
The compost is my usual seed mix which is my usual potting mix, with some extra grit added. I also added a little fine (dusty, which is all we can get here) extra peat for the roots' sake. I sowed over the grit which was in the picture with no further covering. The same regime for rhodo species, works for me.
Meant to add that my "usual" is a compost based on crushed pine bark, about 3 parts pine bark fines, 1 part loam, 1 part gritty sand and in the most recent lot, 1 part peat. I get it mixed by a local supplier whole delivers it in a truck which hold 6 cubic metres. I like some loam in the mix because I always have d fewer problems with fungus diseases than without it.
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Hmm. How long does it take you to knit the cover?
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A long, long, long time Diane. ;D It is seen here in silhouette with the light from the front and the cloth is white but it does need a good hose down with a water blaster as it's gradually going grey/green.
[attachthumb=1]
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I've just looked it up in a Lee Valley catalogue, and they have it:
50% green shadecloth, tightly knit and rated to last over 5 years
with constant outdoor use. . I'm so desperate for sunshine for my plants
that I would never buy it, but they sell all over North America, and
I'm sure it would be useful in places like Saskatchewan and Texas.
Somehow I never imagined the bottom end of New Zealand requiring it.
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Diane if you speak with anyone from the northern hemisphere who has been to New Zealand, one thing they almost always are impressed by is the clean, clear QUALITY of our light. No pollution to start with and somehow it seems, to them, especially brilliant. We are certainly here at the lower end but usually we have strongly sunny days through summer and though we have frosts in winter, the days are warm and blue-skied. This year is an exception unfortunately, duller and greyer than for years. :(
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You must have that hole in the ozone.
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Yes we do. It seems to come and go somewhat and many sunburn badly if precautions are not taken especially the fair-skinned, as I am.
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I had two shortias and they were doing well. I had to transplant them and both died.
Usually the problem with "bad movers" is that they are by mistake moved in the wrong season. The right season being just before new roots form naturally. Does anyone have any ideas about when this could be??
Göte
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Gote - I move my Shortias and transplant them as early as possible - as soon as the ground thaws. Springs are generally very cool & damp here with a lot of cloud cover and fog. The past few springs have been rather dry so watering is important. Potted ones in early Spring and September when it cools off works best.
For years I have grown S. galacifolia in sun but the droughts of the last 2-3 years have caused the leaves to bleach. Even with supplemental watering the trees seems to get it all. Seems as long as sun from 11am-3pm is avoided they can take it.
Saturday & Sunday were very mild here and we lost a good 7.5cm. of ice that covered the ground since January. Unusual to lose the ice so quickly with our cool springs but I am not complaining as the Galanthus are ready to pop.
johnw
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So John, would you advise me to leave my babies until early spring before potting them into little individual pots? We don't have the cold you do but I would expect there to be new root growth around that time. Even now, mid March and what we would call early autumn (the bellbirds' songs have just this week changed to their autumn version) I'm wary of potting seedlings of anything special in case they don't have enough time to make new roots into the pots before it gets chilly. Depends on whether autumn is nice or nasty of course.
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Gote - I move my Shortias and transplant them as early as possible - as soon as the ground thaws. Springs are generally very cool & damp here with a lot of cloud cover and fog. The past few springs have been rather dry so watering is important. Potted ones in early Spring and September when it cools off works best.
Thank you John I will keep the advice in mind until next time.
Göte
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Lesley - Sorry for the delay as we've had to evacuate the house for a day as the basement was being insulated with spray foam. (We were back once as the resultant gas set off the alarm and two fire trucks arrived with full crews!)
It's very hard for me to advise as I can't really get a handle on your climate and we have as many failures as successes. Here we would separate S. seedlings in the cold room (5-15c year round) and place them beneath lights & under a humidity dome. As mentioned before they seem to have a preference for a good percentage of rotten wood in the mix - we find an old rotten pine stump in the woods and collect a bucket or two of what's collapsed around the perimeter. The tricky part is the gradual removal of the dome after a month or more and by that I mean lifting it by less than .5cm/week - too soon and we get near or complete collapse. Same with Jankaea. If you could micmic that outdoors in bright shade during a very prolonged cloudy foggy stretch it just might work. Having said that some years they move no problem and there have been years when we've had complete collapse. When we put them outdoors we have to put protect them from rain & sun as water-logging of the mix can knock them out so this means diligent hand-watering. Once pot-bound in a 10cm pot they are quite easy.
johnw - a cold night, circa -7c.
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(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1832/kanto00016at.jpg) (http://img143.imageshack.us/i/kanto00016at.jpg/)
(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/3497/kanto00022at.jpg) (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/kanto00022at.jpg/)
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/751/kanto00018at.jpg) (http://img16.imageshack.us/i/kanto00018at.jpg/)
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I have two Shortia uniflora grandiflora in flower at the moment and so am trying for seed this year. it would be good to increase the number of plants to try in different positions.
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Very nice flowers Hakone and Tony ;) I love these little jewels :D
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Shortia uniflora grandiflora
(http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8974/grandiflora0003ct.jpg) (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/grandiflora0003ct.jpg/)
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Lovely plants, all of them. :P
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For the first time, some of my own seedlings of Shortia are flowering! Woooohooow!!! ;D ;D
Last year they still looked like this:
[attachimg=1]
I planted them out in fall last year!
Two weeks ago Shortia soldanelloides var. soldanelloides (= Shortia soldanelloides or Schizocodon soldanelloides) looked like this:
[attachimg=2]
And last week I had my first flower on Shortia soldanelloides var. magna (= Shortia magnus or Schizocodon magnus)
[attachimg=3]
Today I had my first flower on Shortia soldanelloides var. illicifolia (= Shortia illicifolia or Schizocodon illicifolia)
[attachimg=4]
I'm a very happy camper ;D ;D ;D
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Hey, Wim, well done.... how cute your babies are! : :D
There's something about a little shortia.... the neatness factor is very high.
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And the COLOUR! That leaf colour is superb, never mind the flowers. :D
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Hey, Wim, well done.... how cute your babies are! : :D
Thanks Maggi!
There's something about a little shortia.... the neatness factor is very high.
Think so too...
And the COLOUR! That leaf colour is superb, never mind the flowers. :D
Yes the leaf-colour is stunning indeed!
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Wim I have been watching the development of your seed. I really like these shortias after seeing them growing in a members garden.
I really wouldn't mind trying to grow them myself. Aren't the flowers so cute and the first time I saw them I thought it looked as if someone had polished their leaves. I will have to chum up my friends for seeds and see if I can get any success.
Well done no wonder you are chuffed :)
Angie :)
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Well done Wim :D You are luckier than me, no seedlings in my three years old seed pots :-\
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Wim I have been watching the development of your seed. I really like these shortias after seeing them growing in a members garden.
I really wouldn't mind trying to grow them myself. Aren't the flowers so cute and the first time I saw them I thought it looked as if someone had polished their leaves. I will have to chum up my friends for seeds and see if I can get any success.
Well done no wonder you are chuffed :)
Angie :)
I find them quite easy from seed, Angie...you'll have to wait a while before you have some flowers...but all gardener's know patience is a virtue ;)
Well done Wim :D You are luckier than me, no seedlings in my three years old seed pots :-\
Oh Nicole, I'm sorry to hear that....normally they germinate very quickly (after two-three months)!