delosperma & aizoaceae

[Great Moravian]

Peter,
ich versuche es in meinem schlechten Deutsch zu erklären.
1. Typusbelege von beiden Arten stimmen mit meiner Pflanze überein, was Habitus betrifft.
   Niemand ist imstande Typusbelege von Delosperma ashtonii und
   Delosperma deleeuwiae zu unterscheiden.
2. Die Zeichnung von Delosperma ashtonii Receptaculum und Receptaculum von
   meiner Pflanze stimmen nicht überein. Receptaculum von Delosperma ashtonii
   erinnert an einen flachen Teller, Lavis? schrieb top of ovary not sunk or raised
   to any great degree, stigmas short  zur Typus Zeichnung, während Receptaculum von  
   meiner Pflanze erinnert an eine Ess-Schüssel mit steilen Wänden und Nektarien
   oben am Rande.
3. Die Zeichnung von Delosperma deleeuwiae Receptaculum und Receptaculum von
   meiner Pflanze stimmen vollkommen überein.
4. Die Gesamtzeichnung stellt eine ausgegrabene nicht bewurzelte Pflanze dar.
   Die Blätter sind retardiert in Entwicklung, die Blüte ist offensichtlich kümmerlich.
5. Die Schlussfolgerung ist ...
Ja, ich sandte das geträumte wunderschöne miniature Delosperma deleeuwiae
ins Märchenland, wohin es gehört. Sei nicht traurig. Das wirkliche ist ebenso schön.
1. Typus vouchers of both species correspond to my plant, as far as habitus is concerned.
   Nobody can distinguish between typus vouchers of Delosperma ashtonii and
   Delosperma deleeuwiae.
2. The drawing of Delosperma ashtonii receptacle and the receptacle of    
   my plant don't correspond. The receptacle of Delosperma ashtonii                
   resembles a shallow plate, Lavis? wrote top of ovary not sunk or raised        
   to any great degree, stigmas short to the typus image, whereas the receptacle of  
   my plant resembles a dish with steep walls and nectaries                    
   above on rim.
3. The drawing of Delosperma deleeuwiae receptacle and the receptacle of    
   my plant correspond.                      
4. The habitus drawing depicts a dug-up, uprooted plant before rooting.      
   The leaves are retarded in development, the flower is clearly defective.            
5. The conclusion is ...
Everybody can check my arguments. It is not necessary to add anything.
Addendum. In virtue of the ICBN, the binomial Delosperma deleeuwiae belongs to
the typus vouchers even if the image depicted a dandelion.

[Great Moravian]

Regarding the nuggetoid. Rabiea albinota has a nectary ring whereas the nuggetoid broadly separated nectaries.
Not all Delosperma species possess so broadly separated nectaries. So the parentage is unlikely.
I observed different nuggetoid provenances, in particular Oxbow-Afriski, Two Gun Pas, Sani, Thabana Nyetlana.
I found no substantial differences between provenances.
The nuggetoid seems to be widespread in turfs about 3200 m. It was encountered
on Kotisephola Pass and Menoaneng Pass too.
It might be a glacial relict, a remnant of the high mountain vegetation of the glacial period.
The number of carpels is variable in one plant. I found 5 to 8 carpels.
If 5 or 6, the carpels are equally large, if 7 or 8, usually two or three
are smaller. In a cross-section the partitions don't meet in one point,
but bifurcate. Interestingly, carpels are approximately equally shaped regardless
of their number, and therefore the capsule is lower and broader if their number increases.

[Tiny Light]

...
By the way, Louisa Bolus identified the typus of Delosperma deleeuwiae
as Delosperma ashtonii ...

Josef,
Just a simple little question of personal interest – where did you found the fact, that Mrs. Bolus once “identified the typus of Delosperma deleeuwiae as Delosperma ashtonii”?

Sincerely
Tiny Light Nobody

[Great Moravian]

Josef,
Just a simple little question of personal interest – where did you found the fact, that Mrs. Bolus once “identified the typus of Delosperma deleeuwiae as Delosperma ashtonii”?
Sincerely
Tiny Light Nobody

Chris,
In Hartmann, 2001. And she is pretty right. All three sheets contain the determination. In Kew explicitly,
the image as underlining of the previously uncertain one, and the voucher sheet in BOL
explicitly under the new determination by Lavis. And in the right upper corner too.

[Great Moravian]

Did not seen authentically material from Aberdeen Road until today, but Delosperma sp. PV1304 (PV = Petr Pavelka) from Modderpoort (OFS) seems to be conspecific in my lumping eyes.

Chris,
A certain discrepancy in PV numbers. Marek Chaloupka offers
PV1302 Modderpoort
http://delosperma.webnode.cz/products/delosperma-moddipoort-zakoupena-u-p-pavelky/
and an interesting white-flowered PV1304 Stormberg
http://delosperma.webnode.cz/products/delosperma-pv-1304-pavelka-/
I don't know anything about PV numbers.

[Great Moravian]

I wonder why Delosperma sutherlandii is not cultivated in Kew.
It was cultivated in Hamburg, images certainly exist.
Somebody should provide images to the forum.

[Peter II]

Field number: PV 1302
Collector: Petr Pavelka (son)
Species: Delosperma sp.
Locality: South of Aliwal North, Modderpoort, Eastern Cape, South Africa

[Great Moravian]

Field number: PV 1302
Collector: Petr Pavelka (son)
Species: Delosperma sp.
Locality: South of Aliwal North, Modderpoort, Eastern Cape, South Africa

Peter,
Thank you for the information. So Chris was not right as I expected.
It is the former Modderpoortberg, now Modder Poort at
Jamestown in the Stormberg Mountains as I supposed.
It was quite logical if PV 1304 was collected in Stormberg.
http://sites.google.com/site/saplacenames/south-africa/mo
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/imw/txu-oclc-6654394-sh-35-1st-ed.jpg
http://www.getamap.net/maps/south_africa/eastern_cape/_modderpoort/
So Chris should correct PV 1304 to PV 1302, and OFS to Eastern Cape.
The location becomes closer to Aberdeen Road as you can observe.
And Marek Chaloupka was correct. You should apologize to him.

[Maggi Young]

Gentlemen, there is no need to be seeking apologies here.... we are all discussing things as we see them.  I realise that with all the different native languages involved in the Forum it is sometimes hard to gauge the precise "timbre" of a comment, but let us always be civil, please.
 
Or, as my Mother used to say, "play nicely, Children" 
 
I would add that the "smiley" icons have a distinct advantage in letting one know  when a  joke  or ironic comment is intended and can take the sting from a baldly harsh remark. 

[Peter II]

Ich nehme mal an, dass es hier ursprünglich um das Zeigen von Fotos schöner Mesembs ging. Deshalb möchte ich jetzt damit weiter machen.

Delosperma lydenburgense
Diese Art blüht durch den ganzen Sommer. Auch wenn keine Sonne scheint.




Delosperma bosseranum
Diese Art vermehrt sich sehr schnell durch selbst-aussaat.




Delosperma bosseranum Frucht




Für hoch wissenschaftliche Dispute sollte bitte ein eigener Thread verwendet werden.
Berichtigungen von falschen Namen sollten aber weiterhin gemacht werden. 

[Maggi Young]

Here we have problems to get the Delospermas to be happy to make flowers in our climate.... the thought that there are types which will even flower without sunshine is a real surprise!  I would not subject them to this "summer" weather though, it would seem too cruel

[Maggi Young]

Für hoch wissenschaftliche Dispute sollte bitte ein eigener Thread verwendet werden.
Berichtigungen von falschen Namen sollten aber weiterhin gemacht werden.

For highly scientific disputes it would be better that a separate thread is used.
Corrections of wrong names but should still be made​​.

 It is always possible to start new threads 

[Peter II]

Trichodiadema introrsum
Diese Art ist sehr blühwillig. Aber nur in direkter Sonne. Die




Die Rückseite der Blütenblätter (Pedalen) sind Deep Purple. 






Trichodiadema spec.
Diese Art bildet niedrige Büsche.

[Brian Ellis]

Trichodiadema introrsum is an amazing colour, very nice Peter.

[Great Moravian]

The thread is filed in Alpines folder. So it should discuss plants cultivable
outdoors at least in England. The about 1700 species of
Mesembryanthemaceae are all beautiful and interesting plants,
but the presentation of all in our thread is out of topic.
I would recommend a restriction to hardy species.