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Author Topic: delosperma & aizoaceae  (Read 148548 times)

Peter II

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #195 on: July 14, 2011, 10:35:39 PM »
Dear Maggy,

so I did not expect. Thank you very much.
Peter

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Maggi Young

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #196 on: July 15, 2011, 11:40:06 AM »
Dear Maggy,

so I did not expect. Thank you very much.
Dear Peter, it is always my pleasure to help. ........es ist immer meine Freude, zu helfen. :)
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

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alpines

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #197 on: July 15, 2011, 12:58:47 PM »
Hey Maggi........what are you like at translating Kentuckian?  ;D

Alan & Sherba Grainger
in beautiful Berea, Kentucky, USA. Zone 6
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Maggi Young

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #198 on: July 15, 2011, 01:32:01 PM »
Hey Maggi........what are you like at translating Kentuckian?  ;D



I have very little experience, Alan....you know me, though, always game for a challenge ;)
It's easier to translate words from a cogent train of thought though, isn't it? Which is why Doric is so easy!  ;D
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

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Great Moravian

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #199 on: July 15, 2011, 01:56:37 PM »
Lieber Josef,
die beiden gezeigten Pflanzen sind D. ashtonii. Vielleicht sogar nur Hybriden. Dazu müsste man aber die Samenkapseln sehen.
D. ashtonii
http://ts-den.aluka.org/fsi/img/size3/alukaplant/bol/phase_01/bol0003/bol131633.jpg
D. deleeuwiae
http://ts-den.aluka.org/fsi/img/size3/alukaplant/bol/phase_01/bol0009/bol131639.jpg
Entschuldigt bitte, dass ich Deutsch schreibe. Aber ich kann kein Englisch. Aber mit etwas guten Willen verstehe ich, was hier geschrieben wird.
Peter,

The image in BOL is misleading.
According to my plant-growing experience, the image of Delosperma deleeuwiae depicts
a dug-up, uprooted plant flowering in Kirstenbosch before rooting.
The leaves are retarded in development and the flower is clearly defective.
It is an analogy to Delosperma framesii.

Indeed, no of the typus sheets contains a similar plant.
http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000077166
The overall habit of typus exsiccates of Delosperma deleeuwiae is really
an acaulescent Delosperma ashtonii, differences are minimal.
By the way, Louisa Bolus identified the typus of Delosperma deleeuwiae
as Delosperma ashtonii and H.E.K. Hartmann found no differences.
So you follow the two ladies.
I identified the plant in May after receptacle peculiarities.
Later the acaulescent compact habit confirmed the identification.
It might certainly be a hybrid of Delosperma deleeuwiae and
Delosperma ashtonii, but features of the former are clearly involved.
Glands colour is different and stigmas are divergent short in ashtonii
whereas parallel longer in deleeuwiae as the situation ought to be.
Observe the depth of stigmas positioning in deleeuwiae too.
Or it is a third species which mimics the receptacle structure of deleeuwiae.
The receptacles cannot belong to one species.
Compare my images and the drawings of receptacles including comments
in aluka references mentioned by you. I cannot republish the drawings
for copyright issues. It would be an easier argumentation.

CLICK ON ANY IMAGE BELOW TO ENLARGE IT

« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 06:27:26 PM by Great Moravian »
Josef N.
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Great Moravian

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #200 on: July 15, 2011, 03:54:15 PM »
Scanned colour prints of aff. hirtum.


CLICK ON ANY IMAGE BELOW TO ENLARGE IT
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 01:35:56 PM by Great Moravian »
Josef N.
gardening in Brno, Czechoslovakia
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Krieg, Handel und Piraterie, dreieinig sind sie, nicht zu trennen
War, business and piracy are triune, not to separate
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Tiny Light

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #201 on: July 15, 2011, 05:16:53 PM »
Thank you all very much for the lovely warm welcome and keeping the information of a tiny light Amateur worthy for discussion.

Quote
Hi Chris :)  Mine have survived just fine, dry and a little colder than -10C.  I know, unbelievably cold for here!  One in the garden didn't survive.
I have had masses of flowers, and it looks like plenty of capsules forming.  My experience is that the seed won't germinate until next spring, but fingers crossed I'll squeeze out some flowers next summer.

Hi  Ian :), thank you very much for posting your splendid photo of D. dyeri ex MG. Looks like under your specific CCCs the flowers are staying somewhat paler. They are resembling under your conditions notably more Delosperma sp. Sani Pass II, than a real D. dyeri sensu Dold & Hammer. What we have got here with D. sp. Sani Pass II is in my lumping eyes rather a second strain of the natural hybrid D. dyeri.
The until today surviving D. dyeri ex MG seedlings developed under my CCCs, standing outdoors in front of my windows real splendid leaf colors. 
(All photos left untouched, no experimental firmware overdrive)

MG#1 shot on November 1st, 2009, no sun in sight for weeks, thus a bit darkened

MG#1 finally a short sunny shot on Nov. 20th 2009, not seen a single flower until today.

MG#1, habitus on May 29. 2010


MG#2 also on Nov. 20th 2009, this plant was shown flowering in the Avonia-Newsletter

MG#2 on June 3, 2010

MG#2 on June 4, 2010

MG#2 on June 4, 2010


Chris,
I'm not sure whether you've seen these hybrids, originally from Gordon Rowley.  There are three different clones, all crosses between D. kofleri and D. nubigenum.  The photos are closeups of small plants, but they are very hardy, very floriforous, and now filling large pots.  One is shown next to D. nubigenum.

Ian,
yes i saw it and probably most of your splendid woldwide input in succulent fora, think you posted also some photos in the BCSS, did'nt you?
I understand the reason for your kindly hint, thank you very much.

The Royal Conundrum of Mr. Gordon Rowley
I kindly received once 2 of these hybrids from the UK, labeled Hybrid A & Hybrid B with the according information "hybrids of South African origin, created by Gordon Rowley" and i understood very well, why further information was left away - as a help. Well, it took at that time only a short phone call to get the suggested missing information, but in my very own tiny universe it was impossible to confirm this info. Thus it was necessary to look behind my botanical analogue of Planck's wall checking up the F1 generation for generating further information, which was finally possible in 2009. This brought an amazing result in understanding the solution of this splendid conundrum of a great English Gentleman, spreading this way one of the greatest examples of fine English Humor in an incredible commendable altruistic way. It is still matter of an unpublished article, thus i cannot tell more in public this time, but you can get corresponding photos and some information via mail from me Ian, if likened. 

Ah, thank you, Josef.... we Scots get everywhere, it seems.

Dear Maggi,
Indeed, looks a lot like Scots get really everywhere. ;)

But first coming to your request about D. aberdeenense, which is obviously attended by some unwanted mistakes in modern literature, thus here is a better introduction of this pretty nice Lowender of a certain cluster within genus Delosperma.
The botanical phrase of D. aberdeenense should published online rather look like this ;)

Delosperma aberdeenense (L.Bol.) L.Bolus NM 1928: 135 ≡ M. aberdeenense L.Bolus ABH 1923: 171 HT Frith 436/18 (3x BOL, in schedis!;  4x ISO K, in schedis!)
(NM = Notes on Mesembrianthemum and allied genera; ABH = Annals of the Bolus Herbarium)

Related herbar sheets
BOL131249 HT
http://ts-den.aluka.org/fsi/img/size3/alukaplant/bol/phase_01/bol0009/bol131249.jpg
BOL131250 HT
http://ts-den.aluka.org/fsi/img/size3/alukaplant/bol/phase_01/bol0000/bol131250.jpg
BOL1312514 HT
http://ts-den.aluka.org/fsi/img/size3/alukaplant/bol/phase_01/bol0001/bol131251.jpg
K000077216 ISO
http://www.kew.org/herbcatimg/150697.jpg
K000077217 ISO
http://www.kew.org/herbcatimg/150698.jpg
K000077218 ISO
http://www.kew.org/herbcatimg/150699.jpg
K000077219 ISO
http://www.kew.org/herbcatimg/150700.jpg
K000077152 unpublished under Delosperma retextum N.E.Brown (June 2, 1933)
http://www.kew.org/herbcatimg/141259.jpg

Holotype drawing of M. aberdeenense by Mary Maud Page [1867-1925] from January 1920, today attached on BOL135369 stored in the Herbarium Bolusianum (BOL)


M. aberdeenense in ABH 1923: 171
Quote:
—Humile, minute papillosum, papillis in setam patentem abeuntibus, ob has omnibus partibus herbaceis pubescentibus; ramis confertis, demum diffuse decumbentibus, hispidis glabrescentibus, internodiis 1—2.5 cm. longis; folia adscendentia, dorso rotundata, supra plana, acuta, 0.4—2 cm. longa, ad 0.5 cm. lata diametroque; flores 5-meridie expansi, 3-nati, 1.5 cm. diam., pedunculis 0.4—1 cm. longis, lateralibus infra medium bracteatis; calycis tubus crateriformis, segmentis lanceolatis acutis, inter se subaequilongis, 0.5 cm. longis, tribus membranaceo-marginatis; petala pluriseriata linearia obtusa, basin versus parum angustata, rubro-purpurea, 0.6 cm. longa, ad 0.1 cm. lata, interiora in staminodia gradatim abeuntia; stamina collecta incurvata, staminodiis apice recurvatis circumdata, filamentis inferne pallidis, superne purpurascentibus, interioribus barbatis, ad 0.2 cm. longis, antheris luteis; discus e glandulis 5, transverse linearibus, compositus; ovarium supra planum, sine medio vero parum elevato, stigmatibus subulatis, longe setaceo-acuminatis, 0.15 cm. longis; capsula 0.7 cm. diam.
  Cape Province: Karroo Region; Aberdeen Road, F. Frith (National Botanic Gardens, No. 436/18). Described from living specimens which have flowered for several years at Kirstenbosch during December and January.

NoteC:
Did not seen authentically material from Aberdeen Road until today, but Delosperma sp. PV1304 (PV = Petr Pavelka) from Modderpoort (OFS) seems to be conspecific in my lumping eyes. This taxon is the Lowender of a certain cluster within genus, but more I cannot tell in public these days. It is also matter of an unfinished and unpublished article, but I can give you some further information via email Maggi, if likened.

But now to a much more interesting point of Scottish activities on botanical research
The first persons digging for Nuggets on Sani Top were evidently not Sean Hogan and Mache Parker Sanderson in 1992 (as given by Panayoti in June 2005 Volume 8, Issue 6, POI, Newsletter of the Colorado Cactus & Succulent Society), but two excellent botanists working for a pretty nice Royal Botanic Garden in Caledonia. They were already years before Sean Hogan & Mache Parker Sanderson wise enough to look at this nuggestoid species as a very doubtful Delosperma, as their recorded comment “Delosperma? sp. Bare patches in grassland, c. 2800 m, Sani Top only; small mats, yellow flowers.” clearly proves to show (edit: Hilliard & Burrt 1987). PD Dr. H.E.K.Hartmann suggested here once (2009, pers. comm.) the influence of Mossia intervallaris. Reasonably possible, but in my eyes Rabiea albinota should rather be seen as main strain for this excellent hardy species. If you look at the pretty nice photo (NBI) of R. albinota in Mesembs of the World, page 227, you could hawkeyed see already the first rising of a somewhat oblong difformed flower, like often as well found in nuggetoid tribes. Also the influence of R. difformis could perhaps be a good candidate, but I have both not under culture, thus it is topical not more than a rather reasonable suggestion. However, the variation of capsule locules in genus Rabiea is corresponding very well with those found in the nuggetoid tribes. 

(edit: the Czech citation and welsh response was deleted) ;)

But more tomorrow or on Sunday - it's now time for a pretty nice barbecue
Have a nice weekend
-Chris
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 08:47:11 PM by Tiny Light »
în continental Europe, c. 360 ft. altitude, annual precipitation c. 610 mm.

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Maggi Young

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #202 on: July 15, 2011, 05:32:36 PM »
What is there not to admire in this place ? .... a German writing messages in Welsh to a Czech....... ;D

And then there is the plant information.......  8) 8)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 10:35:24 AM by Maggi Young »
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

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Martin Tversted

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #203 on: July 16, 2011, 08:48:57 AM »
Chris
you must refer to "The Botany of the Southern Natal Drakensberg" by Hilliard and Burtt from 87.

"Sani Top only, a wider distribution should be investigated". Recently from Czech new location have been offered of this species.

I do think much mountain flora comes from hybridization. This is exemplified with the genus Kniphofia where they behave in waves meeting in the lowlands during cooler periodes and wandering up in higher altitudes during warmer periodes as "new species" (Ramdhani 2006) (global warming and cooling is not something new).

Why is it that hybrids are less valuable for taxonomists? Hybrids are the future...
Martin
Gardening in central Jutland, Denmark. Last winter -24C/-30C...

Jiri

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #204 on: July 16, 2011, 11:23:01 AM »

Chris,

Is evolution possible without hybridization? New types Delosperm it does not create?



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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #205 on: July 16, 2011, 11:33:35 AM »
Hybridization is very possible without hybridization. Climatic changes is one factor that forces plants to adapt/select/getting extinct but though mutation is often seen as one of the faster ways to evolve I do think that hybridization and back crossing into the parent species is the fastest way to get all new gene combinations.
Gardening in central Jutland, Denmark. Last winter -24C/-30C...

alpines

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #206 on: July 17, 2011, 01:47:35 PM »
I have four self-sown seedlings popping up in  a trough in the very close vicinity of D. 'Kelaidis' and D. dyerii.
D. cooperii and D.floribundum are in a bed some 20 feet away.  It looks more like cooperii than anything else BUT all the seedlings have these very white hairs which are not evident on any of the other delospermas. Cooperii has self sown in other areas of the rock garden but I haven't noticed these hairs on them. maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention.

Question is this. Is this normal in seedlings of this size and what are they likely to be?
Alan & Sherba Grainger
in beautiful Berea, Kentucky, USA. Zone 6
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iann

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #207 on: July 17, 2011, 02:03:28 PM »
Are you sure that is a Delosperma?  Cylindrical leaves, no papillae, and stipular hairs would point me to a different genus.  Maybe a different family!

Oh, go on, I'll stick my neck out.  If I saw these with no hints, I'd call it Portulaca grandiflora.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 02:06:58 PM by iann »
near Manchester,  NW England, UK

alpines

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #208 on: July 17, 2011, 02:13:50 PM »
No I'm not Ian.....that's why I'm asking. If it's a portulaca then I don't know where they've come from (birds maybe). I only started growing a few delopsermas a couple of years ago so I'm still learning. It's just that they are growing so close toother Delospermas that I thought I'd as the question. Don't want to waste my time cultivating something I don't want in the garden.
Thanks for the input.
Alan & Sherba Grainger
in beautiful Berea, Kentucky, USA. Zone 6
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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #209 on: July 17, 2011, 11:08:32 PM »
Dear Maggi,

your splendid lovely reaction on my last posting detected the real magical Lady of my Heart 8) :-* - did knew rather well what i was writing as a challenged Tiny Light Amateur ;), defending as well the position of a real Braveheart :) and decided giving via my last post also a short imagination on how real Gentlemen would probably prefer editing an already published post in this lovely thread. Grateful acknowledgement also to Martin, helping a Tiny Light in finding the right way. :)

However, here comes brand new published on FgaS a pretty nice habitat shot from Anja & Harald Jainta, showing in my lumping eyes the first photographical evidence of the nuggetoid tribes in Lesotho, 6 km past Sani Pass.
http://www.fgas-sukkulenten.de/index.php?view=detail&id=872&option=com_joomgallery&Itemid=85&lang=de

With grateful acknowledgement to Dr. Harald Jainta 8) here is a detail outtake from the original photo for your comfort
http://www.fgas-sukkulenten.de/downloads/Kapsel.jpg

Getting now a hawkeyed closer look on the shown fruit surface, we will rather sure not find a 5-parted fruit type, even with my handicapped bad eyes I can now count up to at least 9 parts and as well an corresponding numbers of dried stigmas.
Enjoy.

-Chris
în continental Europe, c. 360 ft. altitude, annual precipitation c. 610 mm.

-Altruism is quite sure the most endangered species on this planet!

 


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