Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: TheOnionMan on January 02, 2010, 01:52:23 AM
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Thought I might as well kick off the "Allium 2010" thread ;D
I'm opening with a species that is somewhat of a puzzle. I'm growing a very nice allium that took about 6 years to flower from seed, have since lost the label (crows love pulling out labels), no matter, I believed it to be misnamed based on the foliage. It certainly is within the Allium nigrum-atropurpureum-cyrillii clan, and I'm siding towards Allium cyrillii on this one.
In Flora of Turkey, it is stated about Allium atropurpureum "The Turkish material is rather close to cyrillii". It also states that flower color on plants in Turkey is lighter compared to the much darker forms in Romania and Bulgaria. In my plant, flower color appears darker than it is, because the very prominent dark purple anthers, dark purple ovary and pedicels. The tepals are actually somewhat pale lilac and the thick triangular stamen bases are prominently white with just a hint of purplish tinge. Flowers are fragrant.
I upload a photo of A. atropurpureum for comparison, the affinity is obvious. Wish I could get seed from a clean wild collected source for A. atropurpureum; the ones sold in autumn bins of Dutch imported bulbs are mostly virused, and my plants never set seed.
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Thought I might as well kick off the "Allium 2010" thread ;D
I'm opening with a species that is somewhat of a puzzle. I'm growing a very nice allium that took about 6 years to flower from seed, have since lost the label (crows love pulling out labels), no matter, I believed it to be misnamed based on the foliage. It certainly is within the Allium nigrum-atropurpureum-cyrillii clan, and I'm siding towards Allium cyrillii on this one.
This is a very nice allium with a good colour. About 50cm high I guess ?
I have never grown this species from seeds, unfortunately.
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Nice start, Mark..
I've tried seed propagated A. atropureum several times and always ended up with impostors. I saw the one in the picture below in Bjørn Thon's garden near Tromsø in Northern Norway last summer. Can you confirm its identity (he gave me a couple of onions)? I earlier posted it here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3874.msg102422#msg102422 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3874.msg102422#msg102422)
Allium cyrillii I've only seen once, in the Goteborg Botanics in Sweden - this is the only picture I have:
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I've tried seed propagated A. atropureum several times and always ended up with impostors. I saw the one in the picture below in Bjørn Thon's garden near Tromsø in Northern Norway last summer. Can you confirm its identity (he gave me a couple of onions)? I earlier posted it here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3874.msg102422#msg102422 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3874.msg102422#msg102422)
The plant labelled A. atropurpureum is certainly not that species. A. atropurpureum (Allium section melanocrommyum) has 3-7 broad flat leaves (1-4 cm broad), similar to the foliage you see in the entire-plant view of A. cyrillii. In my experience with A. atropurpureum from Dutch imported bulbs, the leaves are even broader than reported, looking much coarser than A. cyrillii.
The plant in the photograph has narrow fistular leaves, and is probably a member of Allium section Allium (containing familiar "drumstick" species, A. rotundum, sphaerocephalum, etc). The photo is not clear enough or close enough to reveal key details to narrow down an ID, for example whether the hollow leaves are finely ribbed or not. It sort of looks like A. rubrovitattum... although that species only grows up to 20 cm, and has fairly distinctive striped florets (dark red tepals that have a white margin). Another guess is A. jubatum, but without knowing more subtle details, it could be one of among a couple dozen similar looking species.
Allium cyrillii I've only seen once, in the Goteborg Botanics in Sweden - this is the only picture I have:
In terms of the seed pods, this looks much like mine... always making a full head of capsules, although many capsules can and do abort if we get too many summer thunderstorms and downpours, followed by heat and humidity. But most years I get some seed. The seed heads on A. atropurpureum look much the same, although typically abort or capsules are empty.
By the way, my A. cyrillii look much like the 4 photos found on this Russian site, showing plants in the wild in Crimea.
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/view/item/1943.html
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Thanks for your comments Mark. Will be hopefully be able to take some close-ups next summer - if I have any plants left, highs of between -18 and -20C forecast over the next few days (thankfully, we now have a reasonable snowcover).
The more you look at pictures of my Alliums, the closer I'm getting to Dr. Fritsch's statement that 60% or more of Alliums are wrongly identified (even in botanical gardens!).
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Looking at your pics of Allium atropurpureum I am pretty sure it is the one we have as a road side weed in the mountain pass we use to cross the mountains heading south. I'd be happy to look out for seeds tis year if you are interested. We also have A.cyrillii in the same area.
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POSTING FEATURING PERSONAL MESSAGES BETWEEN RANUNCULUS AND THE ONION MAN PUBLISHED WITH KIND PERMISSION.
Hi Mark,
I hope you don't mind me contacting you personally but I was wondering
if you could very kindly identify this onion found at sea level near
Olu Deniz in Turkey? Up to four feet tall it was growing in rough
sandy habitats quite near to the shore.
Any ideas would be much appreciated.
Snowing hard here at the moment
and forming drifts over sheets of ice.
Kind regards,
Cliff
Hi Cliff,
I think this Allium is A. amethystinum. I have checked the Flora of Turkey, as well as Brian Mathew's "A review of Allium section Allium. The species is quite variable, but there is one unique characteristic, Mathew writes: "Pedicels smooth, unequal, 1-2 cm long at anthesis, the inner ones soon becoming erect and elongating to up to 5 cm, forming the impression of a "two-tiered" umbel." There's a photo of this species in the book, at later anthesis with little flower color left, but the two-tiered umbel effect if very obvious, and I'd say they are the same as in your photos. The ciliate filaments, stem height, location in coastal Turkey near sea level, all fit.
I must say, it is a very attractive plant, isn't it! Recommendation: post the photos and our discussion to the SRCG "Allium 2010" discussion, to share with everyone.
Regards,
Mark McDonough
antennaria@charter.net
Hi Mark,
Many thanks for your kind assistance and for the very creditable identification. I will post our discussion and the images on the forum as you suggested though it will have to wait until the morrow I'm afraid!
Kind regards,
Cliff
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Thanks for posting this, Cliff.
I was struck by this species which I saw in June last year at Wakehurst Place (a garden to the south of London administered by Kew). Here are a few pictures I took:
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Hi,
I was wondering if I could seek some advice from the SRGC brains trust?
I'm trying to figure out which of the statuesque alliums might survive in the garden in Adelaide in Southern Australia. I don't have any problem supplying dry summer conditions... we are seriously dry... lucky to see 25 mm between November and March. Our annual rainfall generally arrives between April (late autumn and October, late spring).
My conundrum is that there is so little information on chill factors required for alliums to grow and flower successfully. Our climate is equivalent to US cold zone 11 (that's minimum's of 4-10C degrees, we do occasionally drop to 0C but that might be for an hour overnight - quite a contrast to what's happening in the northern hemisphere now!). The HZ is about the equivalent of US 6 (that is 46-60 days above 30C and we are heading for a spell of three days straight above 41C which will test out the garden).
I have planted Allium neopolitan spp cowannii and that seems to be managing, A. schubertii was planted last summer and flowered in spring '09... the jury's out on whether it will repeat in spring '10. I have tried to stick with the Mediterranean types but that is not necessarily successful as even Tuscany and Provence get a lot colder than it does here (no messing about with dragging pots of lemons inside here.. if they're in pots or the garden its just a question of making sure they get enough water!). I tried Allium siculum (syn N. siculum) last year from three different suppliers and the poor things didn't even bother putting their heads above the ground.
The climate of the Mani region in the Southern Peloponnese is about the closest NH equivalent I can suggest to our climate, and certain areas of southern California would be similar. Certainly things like Crocus goulimyi and C. cartwrightiannus thrive to the extent of self seeding. I'm just wary of spending more $$ on luscious looking A. giganteum ($A14.50 each) or A. Globemaster (same) or A. hollandicum Purple Sensation and A. Mount Everest ($A15) if they don't persist in the garden.
I'd appreciate your advice and any suggestions (and if anyone wants to send over a few degrees of -C to bring the +41C down over the next couple of days that would be welcome too).
Anita
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This is what I am currently growing as A.amethystinum- the pic was posted last summer. Maybe it is not true or maybe it is just variable. I bought the plant before I moved here and now know the species is native to SE Bulgaria as well as Turkey ;)
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Allium amethystinum from my collection. Origin - Turkey. near Uzumlu at 1300 m altitude. Identified by Arnis Seisums.
Janis
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I'm just wary of spending more $$ on luscious looking A. giganteum ($A14.50 each) or A. Globemaster (same) or A. hollandicum Purple Sensation and A. Mount Everest ($A15) if they don't persist in the garden.
I'd appreciate your advice and any suggestions (and if anyone wants to send over a few degrees of -C to bring the +41C down over the next couple of days that would be welcome too).
Anita
I suppose that Alliums listed by you would like colder treatment in winter, but it is very difficult to predict reaction of individual species. Some supposed not growable here, grow very well, some supposed good gives failure. I can't grow A. giganteum here outside, for example.
Janis
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I was wondering if I could seek some advice from the SRGC brains trust?
I'm trying to figure out which of the statuesque alliums might survive in the garden in Adelaide in Southern Australia. My conundrum is that there is so little information on chill factors required for alliums to grow and flower successfully. Our climate is equivalent to US cold zone 11. Anita
For a number of years I corresponded frequently with Thad Howard who lived near San Antonio, Texas, a bulb expert of a unique kind, mostly known as a pioneer with such genera as Zephyranthes, Hymenocallis, Habranthus, but he also loved the genus Allium. Sadly he passed away fairly recently, the world shall miss this kind, gentle, generous soul.
In his expereince, many of the tall Allium species (Allium section melanocrommyum) such as giganteum, stipitatum, and others, failed to grow more than one season there, as there was insufficient cold dormancy. However, there are a range of species that should perfectly well in your climate. I recommend getting your hands on a copy of Thad Howard's invaluable book, Bulbs for Warm Climates, 2001, ISBN 0-292-73125-6
http://www.amazon.com/Bulbs-Warm-Climates-Thad-Howard/dp/0292731264
He has a chapter on Allium, a good overall summary of growing Allium in a warm climate, although many of the southwestern USA species and Mexican species he lists are mostly unobtainable.
Other writers on bulbs in warmer climates include titles by authors like Scott Ogden (Garden Bulbs for the South).
Lastly, look through the SRGC "Allium 2009" thread for photos of very attractive species in Israel, like A. tel-avivense and shubertii. Found growing in such a warm climate, maybe such species could translate to your climate.
Hope this helps.
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This is what I am currently growing as A.amethystinum- the pic was posted last summer. Maybe it is not true or maybe it is just variable. I bought the plant before I moved here and now know the species is native to SE Bulgaria as well as Turkey ;)
Looks like A. sphearocephalon to me.
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I'm just wary of spending more $$ on luscious looking A. giganteum ($A14.50 each) or A. Globemaster (same) or A. hollandicum Purple Sensation and A. Mount Everest ($A15) if they don't persist in the garden.
I'd appreciate your advice and any suggestions (and if anyone wants to send over a few degrees of -C to bring the +41C down over the next couple of days that would be welcome too).
Anita
Anita - I wish you were closer. The company I work for was tossing the leftover bulbs before Christmas. I was given 18 Globemasters and 75 Gladiators that seemed perfect still so we potted them up as the ground was frozen. The price was regularly half that in Australia, our dollars are nearly at par. We'll see if the flower buds have been damaged by sitting around at room temperature from August until December.
johnw
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Allium amethystinum from my collection. Origin - Turkey. near Uzumlu at 1300 m altitude. Identified by Arnis Seisums.
Janis
Janis, beautiful photos, a really attractive Allium. The inflorescences are at early-mid anthesis in your photos, no florets are at the fertilized stage where they start swelling into seed capsules. Any photos of this at late anthesis, where perchance the "second-tier" effect happens when the pedicels stand erect and lengthen upwards?
One area I'm always wary of, is IDs within Allium section Allium (even when digging through Brian Mathew's excellent book "A review of Allium section Allium"), there are just too many look-alike species, taxonomic quagmires, and significant species variability.
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This is what I am currently growing as A.amethystinum- the pic was posted last summer. Maybe it is not true or maybe it is just variable. I bought the plant before I moved here and now know the species is native to SE Bulgaria as well as Turkey ;)
Looks like A. sphearocephalon to me.
Thanks, I had had my doubts but it did come from a reliable source :-\
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I like the pictures too! I just received the new catalogue of Janis Ruksans by mail. He has an unusually large number of new Allium species, uncommon things and the novelties are superb. Some of them are only recently described by R. Fritsch, like A. issakulii nuratense, pseudobodeanum. You can ask a copy of his new catalogue at janis.bulb@hawk.lv.
Hendrik
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I spent an hour this morning weeding out Allium roseum from a bed largely planted with bulbs. Once again, the genus Allium has demonstrated that in this congenial climate, it's a thug of the worst type.
Earlier in the winter, thin, bright green leaves had emerged and my suspicious eye had wondered, is that that unspeakable plant yet again? For some years, I've sedulously lifted all specimens that came into flower, and had foolishly thought it was under control - but, no, alas, quite the contrary. In fact, it appears that prior years' eradication efforts have made matters worse, not better.
Today it has stopped raining and the temperature is about +6C, warm enough for gardening if you wear a jacket, but cold enough that one's fingers become chilled to the bone poking about in the soil. Out I went with kneeling pad, fern trowel, and a container. Diggity-dig-dig. Curse-swear-invect-blaspheme!
What I observed is that mature bulbs (approaching flowering size) form small offsets, similar in appearance to slightly fat mustard seeds. These are quite loose in the soil at this time of year, so when you lift a bulb of sufficient maturity, you must carefully pick out the offsets that are unearthed or your efforts will have been in vain. Fortunately, the offsets are fairly easy to spot against the black earth.
These offsets formed last summer appear not to actively grow this, their first winter, but those from earlier years send up a thin paired leaf. When you lift such a young plant, there are no offsets to worry about, but it's rather like digging up individual blades of grass one at a time.
To really bring this horror under control, it will be necessary for me to carefully and painstakingly search out these growing offsets in future years and lift them before they have matured to the point of being strong enough to form offsets themselves.
Is there a strain of Allium roseum that does not grow like a thug?
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Mark,
Thanks for your suggestions regarding Thad Howard's book, I have had it for a couple of years and it's been a useful guide leading me into a number of genera such as Hymenocallis, Ismenes and even selected Tulipa that have thrived here. I was saddened to hear of his death as he had a lovely personable writing style. He basically suggested that all of the giant alliums are unsuitable for the South as they don't persist in summer rainfall climates. That's obviously not a problem for me!
I did read the 09 Allium thread with interest but even plants that grow in Israel and Lebanon are not a safe bet here as locations such as the Golan Heights and elsewhere in the region get seriously cold so species that thrive there may like our hot summers but fail to bloom due to lack of winter chill. I try and check out references which give me a clue as to altitude of natural occurences so I can try and guess which ones need that chill.
I've got a bulb of A. schubertii in the garden and if it gets through our version of winter and flowers next year sans winter chill, I'll have a heap more to plant (hopefully) from the seed I collected this year!
I'll follow up your suggestion of Scott Ogden's book, but again from the read I had on Amazon it looks like he deals with summer-rainfall areas... but any clues will be helpful! Thanks
John(W),
Thanks for thinking of me... I wish I could have access to that surplus... but I'm sure that by the time I got through our stringent quarantine circus, they'd still be pretty expensive. :)
Janis,
I guess I'm just going to have to rely on trial and error... I always appreciate your postings as you nearly always include references to the altitude of your collections so that's a helpful clue. I have also trawled through your terrific book which is full of post it notes on species that might grow here if they ever become available in Australia. I understand Marcus Harvey is importing bulbs from you and Mark so I'm hoping that in future the range of alliums available in Aus will increase.
Thanks for everybody's suggestions. It would be appreciated if residents of Turkey or Israel could suggest some of the lower altitude alliums that persist there.
Cheers Anita
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Once again, the genus Allium has demonstrated that in this congenial climate, it's a thug of the worst type.
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Is there a strain of Allium roseum that does not grow like a thug?
Wow, someone got up on the wrong side of the onion patch today ;-)
Since the estimated species count is about 850, may I suggest starting a new thread "850 things I hate about Allium" ;) :o ::)
Seriously though, I grow about 150 Allium types, and don't have any such problems with them. Although with Campanula punctata and C. takesimana, I have given up on trying to eradicate these beastly beauties, and when I lived in a milder climate (Seattle), the blaspheming thugs were English bluebells and sundry Muscari.
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Thanks for your comments Mark. Will be hopefully be able to take some close-ups next summer - if I have any plants left, highs of between -18 and -20C forecast over the next few days (thankfully, we now have a reasonable snowcover).
The more you look at pictures of my Alliums, the closer I'm getting to Dr. Fritsch's statement that 60% or more of Alliums are wrongly identified (even in botanical gardens!).
Update regarding your Allium not-atropurpureum identity.
When I first saw the picture, my first instinct was Allium atrosanguineum (a species I have lusted for a long time) based on the characteristic dark persistent spathe valves, fistular leaves, and dark grape-like buds, but in the subject plant the overall appearance and character look rather different, too slim, and not nearly as distinctive as the species appear to be in photos I have seen, so I dismissed that thought.
Kurt Vickery, who has been lurking about these pages, wrote to me and suggested that it looks like an "out of character" Allium atrosanguineum, probably a result of growing this high alpine species in lowland conditions, thus making it harder to recognize. He also sent a great photo taken at high altitude in Kazakhstan showing a meadow vista of Allium atrosanguineum, Tulipa heterophylla, and Primula algida... splendid!
I wrote and asked if I could post his photo; haven't heard back yet, so am hoping he'll not be miffed at me if I jump the gun and share it with you.
Back to Allium atrosanguineum, look at the following photos links (including the beautiful yellow form properly known as Allium atrosanguineum var. fedschenkoanum. When in character, this is one of the most amazing looking alliums ever. Suggestion, use Google Toolbar translate feature to read any of the text on the photo links.
Allium atrosanguineum:
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/3125.html
A. atrosanguineum var. fedschenkoanum
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/39378.html
There is also a Chinese form, A. atrosanguineum var. tibeticum, described as having flowers "brass yellow to copper red, lustrous".... ooh, sounds good.
Two New Combinations in Central Asian and Chinese Allium (Alliaceae)
http://hua.huh.harvard.edu/china/novon/Zhu&Turland10-2.htm
enjoy
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My Allium weed is A. zebdanense. May be paradoxum normale could be, too but I'm not growing it on regular beds, but it naturalized with me under trees in old shade garden.
Janis
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My Allium weed is A. zebdanense. May be paradoxum normale could be, too but I'm not growing it on regular beds, but it naturalized with me under trees in old shade garden.
Janis
Some notes... to explore the issue of reported weediness on the part of these alliums:
Allium zebdanense has a disjunct natural distribution, Lebanon, Syria (in an area adjacent to Lebanon), and northeastern Turkey. The Turkish forms grow in rock crevices and ledges, whereas the Lebanese plants grow in humid subalpine to lowland areas. I've heard reports of invasiveness for this species, while others don't find it so (myself among them), therefore I wonder if some clones depending on their provenance are more aggressive than others. I've grown Allium zebdanense for over 30 years, with beautiful clumps for +20 years in my current location, and it has always been well-behaved, slowly clumping species, among the safest and most beautiful species suitable for dry shade in a woodland setting. It sets almost no seed, and it is rare to ever find a self-sown seedling.
A few friends I shared this plant with report the same restrained behavior. I uploaded some photos taken in my friend's garden and in mine. When grown in the sun, the clumps don't bulk up as well, and the leaves appear yellowish green instead of deep green (it likes shade better). It is among the earlier flowering Allium species, a good addition to a woodland garden with hosta and other shade plants, the allium completely drying up and going dormant a few weeks after flowering.
Regarding Allium paradoxum var. normale, for those who don't know this Iranian species, the type species can be invasive because most flowers are replaced by bulbils that drop and start new plants. But var. normale is the form without bulbils, just heads of large pendulous white flowers (thus theoretically not invasive as the "type" species is). In my climate, I can barely keep it alive because it is the first Allium to bloom, so early in fact, that tender foliage and buds are often ruined by heavy frosts.
Janis, is the form that has naturalized under trees in your old shade garden regular A. paradoxum or is it variety "normale". I'd like to see a photo of that allium naturalized in bloom, must be a beautiful sight!
I uploaded an old photo of A. paradoxum v. normale in my garden from 2001, not a good quality shot, wasn't using a very good camera back then. You can notice from marred foliage, from frost burn.
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I think another problem is that there is seed being passed around labelled as A.zebdanense, which isn't. I now mine wasn't.
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I think another problem is that there is seed being passed around labelled as A.zebdanense, which isn't. I now mine wasn't.
Simon, that's interesting... haven't heard this before but it doesn't surprise me. The form that I grow, for all intents and purposes, can be considered "nearly sterile", rarely making but a few seed, or none, in any given year.
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Yes, I know that there are two varieties of Allium paradoxum. My first stock of unknown origin usually maid 1-2 flowers and 3-5 bulbils in inflorescence. I very soon destroyed it. During RSZ trip to N Talish (then in Soviet Azerbaijan) near small waterfall at vil. Lerik we found population of var. normale which turned excellent grower in garden and never forms bulbils. It perfectly grows with me, set seeds and is selfsowing in shade under trees. It grew well in sunny border at S wall of house but there it is protected by a lot of other bulbous plants and perennials. But it isn't so vigorous than in shade. Planted on sunny nursery beds it is week and suffers from hot and may be too dry conditions. It is the reason why I'm rarely offering it in my catalogues. Searching for bulbs in place where it is naturalised isn't easy for tree roots, other plant roots and usually at harvesting time the exact spots are forgotten.
Allium zebdanense I'm growing on nursery beds in full sun, but it split enormously and it is impossible to harvest all small bulbils. I don't know origin of my stock - I suppose I got it from late Michael Hoog or from Willem van Eeden (both in Holland) very long ago. Those unharvested zebdanense bulbils fills the soil where it was planted earlier. Fortunately it makes leaves in autumn and spraying with roundup helps to clean soil from this nice weed. Regardless of its habitat in nature it is surprisingly hardy and alive even hardiest winters when many other bulbs suffered or even died.
In attachments some pictures of Allium paradoxum var. normale.
Janis
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Looking for Allium paradoxum pictures, I accidentally opened 2 other pictures which I suppose would be interesting for Allium lovers.
On the first you can see typical locality for Allium karataviense in Kara-Tau mountains. Kara - means black - and you can see stones there are black. Tau is mountains. Bulbs of Allium karataviense are fixed below unstable some 20 cm thick layer of sliding stone chips where starts some humus and soil. It is slope of Ber-kara gorge - kara is water and really for black stones in stream bottom, water looks blackish. It is place from where I discovered two new species - Corydalis schanginii subsp. ainae and Tulipa berkariense which I named but not published as I was a little doubtfull about it - is it worth of new species name. Just recently Ben J.M. Zonnenveld published article in which he mentions that by genome it is new species. This well known gorge turned very rich in new plants.
On other slide is beautiful Allium moly variety 'Jeannine' selected by Michael Hoog and named by his wife. It is characterised by softer yellow color of flowers, usually 2 stems per bulb and is blooming much later than usual commercial form of A. moly, which flowers are more greenish yellow in shade and with more pointed petals. When usual form is in full flowers, 'Jeannine' only emerges from soil. Side by side is Allium oreophilum cv. 'Agaliks Giant' selected by me from wild material collected during my second mountain trip to Central Asia at heights of Agalik river not far from Samarkand. It is tallest of oreophilums grown by me and planted side by side with 'Jeannine' makes very nice border. Picture is very old, for very long my stocks of both cultivars are very small, but I still well remember how beautiful they both were stayin in same bed side by side.
Janis
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Janis,
wonderful information you gave us, with these two pictures. This is why I love these forum. Every day I can learn more and more about the plants we love.
Tanks a lot
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Update regarding your Allium not-atropurpureum identity.
When I first saw the picture, my first instinct was Allium atrosanguineum (a species I have lusted for a long time) based on the characteristic dark persistent spathe valves, fistular leaves, and dark grape-like buds, but in the subject plant the overall appearance and character look rather different, too slim, and not nearly as distinctive as the species appear to be in photos I have seen, so I dismissed that thought.
enjoy
I certainly did enjoy those pictures - to die for...
It certainly looks like my Allium is atrosanguineum. Easy to mix up the names atrosanguineum and atropurpureum too. Talking about my plant being atypical as it is growing in the lowlands, don't forget that it's also growing in the land of the midnight sun too...
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Re-zebdanense: My experience is the same as yours Mark. My zebdanense is either sterile or closely so. A few months back I wrote a short (Norwegian) article about this one as it’s an excellent well behaved Allium. It’s also hardy. However, it's somewhat surprising that a plant from Lebanon and Syria should prove hardy in Northern Norway, although there are quite high mountains in those countries. I saw it in several gardens there in flower in early June last year (it flowers in mid-May in my “southern” garden). This has made me wonder if it really is this species or perhaps a hybrid (mine is also sterile or almost so – don’t remember seeing a seed on it). I’ve had it for over 10 years in the open garden and it’s also naturalized in a wild bit of the garden and grows well with ground elder as you can see in the picture (no idea how it got there, but I might have planted it). The flowers are also a nice addition to a spring salad if you like that kind of thing (not many other flowers around at that time).
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Yes, I know that there are two varieties of Allium paradoxum.
Hi Janis, yes I suspected you would know perfectly well about paradoxum and variety normale... I offered up the explanatory information about the two forms for readers of this forum who might not know about the differences :)
Allium zebdanense I'm growing on nursery beds in full sun, but it split enormously and it is impossible to harvest all small bulbils. Fortunately it makes leaves in autumn and spraying with roundup helps to clean soil from this nice weed.
In my plants, the foliage never respouts in autumn! For me, A. zebdanense only reappears in early spring. This makes me wonder if there is indeed another clone out there, corresponding to the different disjunct races of this species, as reported by Davis in Flora of Turkey. There are a number of species that do resprout in the autumn, and have evergreen foliage all winter here.... such as A. flavum and A. parciflorum, but never with A. zebdanense. This is a very interesting difference. Stephen, how about with your plants?
Janis, your photos of A. paradoxum var. normale are wonderful, thanks for sharing! In the form you show, the flowers are plump and rotund yet slightly urceolate, rather elegant and beautiful, looking like Leucojum blooms, prettier than the form I've grown which had simple campanulate flowers without that nice recurved flare. My plants haven't flowered the last two years, can't say for sure it's even alive anymore. And I learn from you the problem, I had it planted in full sun, when it should be in shade. I do hope you offer seed or bulbs of this in the future, I would dearly love to get it "naturalized" in some shadier parts of my garden.
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Side by side is Allium oreophilum cv. 'Agaliks Giant' selected by me from wild material collected during my second mountain trip to Central Asia at heights of Agalik river not far from Samarkand. It is tallest of oreophilums grown by me and planted side by side with 'Jeannine' makes very nice border. Picture is very old, for very long my stocks of both cultivars are very small, but I still well remember how beautiful they both were stayin in same bed side by side.
Janis
One of my favorite forms of Allium oreophilum is one named A. oreophilum 'Torch', much better than the commonly available form. I got mine from Pacific Rim Nursery at http://www.hillkeep.ca/bulbs%20allium%20i-z.htm
The nursery description says "Native to Central Asia, it was selected for its straight stalk by Antoine Hoog from the Jánis Rukšáns selection A. oreophilum 'Agalik'. This straight-stemmed version charms all who see it. It is beautiful both in the rock garden and as a dinner-party centrepiece ." You have collected many forms of this species, what can you tell us about 'Torch', is the information in the nursery description accurate? In your book, I really like the dwarf selections you've made, such as 'Kursavli Curl'.
I uploaded two photos of A. oreophilum 'Torch' growing in my garden. I find this selection to be strong, but slow growing, with fleshy, waxy blue-gray foliage, and intensely colored heads of bloom. I've been scratching the seed into the soil around the parent plant, and lots of seedlings are coming up, no worries about hybrids as it is the only form I grow currently.
Thanks for sharing your photos and description of the Kara-Tau mountains.
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Given that 2 people have A.zebdanense, which rarely sets seed maybe this explains why my plants grow from seed weren't true ;)
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In my plants, the foliage never respouts in autumn! For me, A. zebdanense only reappears in early spring. This makes me wonder if there is indeed another clone out there, corresponding to the different disjunct races of this species, as reported by Davis in Flora of Turkey. There are a number of species that do resprout in the autumn, and have evergreen foliage all winter here.... such as A. flavum and A. parciflorum, but never with A. zebdanense. This is a very interesting difference. Stephen, how about with your plants?
Can't remember for certain - have to get back to you in the spring. My zebdanense is growing with A. scorodoprasum jajlae. One of the two or both resprout - scorodoprasum definitely does; I think zebdanense reappears in spring like yours.
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I just read in entry under Iris topic, that my book Buried Treasures are used as reference for correct names. Unfortunately not allways it is true. As most of claims are presented to few Alliums I deceided to put part of my Iris entry in Allium topic, too.
Just got mail from great Allium specialist Reinhardt Fritsch that few Iranian Alliums in my book are incorrectly identified. I'm not great in Allium taxonomy and followed the names under which I got those plants from another great specialist in Alliums - Arnis Seisums. I completely trusted to his identification and didn't checked his opinion. Really there are very little information about Iranian Alliums and just recently a lot of new species were described and this summer I will have great job checking my stocks of Iranian Alliums to put them under correct names. Unfortunately the last complete revue of Alliums in this district is Wendelbo's treatment in Flora Iranica, now much out of date. Sorry, but each book can show only situation of knowledge at the date when book is going to printer. At present so many researches are maid using modern technologies. From other side - each botanist think that just his opinion is the best and correct. I was something shocked when recently hear that my plants are used as standard for naming. Of course, I'm never intentionally sending wrongly named plants instead of true, but labels can show only my opinion (knowledge) at current moment.
Janis
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I just read in entry under Iris topic, that my book Buried Treasures are used as reference for correct names. Unfortunately not allways it is true. As most of claims are presented to few Alliums I deceided to put part of my Iris entry in Allium topic, too.
Janis, don't be too hard on yourself. Over the years I've been frustrated with plant books, particularly bulb books, that pay "short shrift" to the genus Allium, one of the largest and most ornamental of bulbous genera, yet there is always more focus on the "popular" genera such as Crocus, Corydalis, Fritillaria, Iris, Tulipa, etc. An example is the indispensible book The Caucasus and its Flowers; would have liked to see much more than just two Allium species featured!
So, it was a great pleasure after acquiring your astounding book Buried Treasures to see, at long last, a well deserved emphasis on highly ornamental Allium species! With your catalogs, your book, and marvelously illustrated PowerPoint slide presentation on Allium, have done more to educate and promote the ornamental value of innumerable species of Allium more than anyone I can think off in the last two decades.
Regarding misidentifications, Allium taxonomy it is a difficult area. In just two of Dr. Reinhard Fritsch's recent publications, more than 20 new species are described. So, one would need Wendelbo's treatment in Flora Iranica as you mention, but then also need dozens of separately published scientific papers and treatments appearing over a span of 40 years or more, then start putting pieces of the puzzle together, to begin to get a sense of what Allium species exist in one country like Iran, let alone neighboring countries like Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, etc. Dr. Fritsch did mention that there is an effort underway to revamp a new revised treatment of the genus Allium in Iran, for some time in 2012 or 2013.
I asked Dr. Fritsch to look at photos of two allium species identified and given to me by Arnis Seisums; Allium altissimum (Turkmenistan, E Kopet-Dag, nr. village Manish) and Allium chelotum (Iran, Elburs mts, Kuh-e Abr, very old P. Wendelbo' s collection). Dr. Fritsch confirmed A. chelotum, although said what I was growing as A. altissimum was most likely Allium stipitatum. For a "stipitatum' it sure grows tall, reaching nearly 2 meters in its better years. So now I'm not sure what to think, other than it is not altissimum. So, this task of getting absolutely correct identifications is not easy, even using information from the formost experts in the field.
So, please continue your great work and enthusiasm for the genus Allium, updating a few IDs is just part of the process as information becomes known.
As a follow up to this message, I will post some photos of both of these.
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To follow-up, here are photos of Allium chelotum from Iran, grows to little over 1 meter, attractive ball of pink flowers. Dr. Fritsch gave an "ok" on this one. Growing right next to it are the shooting buds of what I had received as Allium altissimum, which Dr. Fritsch suggests looks more like Allium stipitatum. It is a giant plant, growing to 6' (2 meters) and is the tallest species I've ever grown. I like how the buds and stems are phototropic, following the sun around, which typically ends up in comical bends and twists at the top of the stems.
I bet you StephenB would want to make a salad out of those succulent Allium aff. stipitatum leaves seen in photo #3.
-- Message modified to show identification of the tall purple Allium as A. stipitatum, not A. altissimum. Renamed photos too --
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Allium neapolitanum starts to flower now, it is a real pest but an excellent cut flower.
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I bet you StephenB would want to make a salad out of those succulent Allium aff. stipitatum leaves seen in photo #3.
Thanks for the invite - typical, invited to dinner and end up as cook.... ;) I've never partaken of Stipitatum as I've never succeeded with it and never been invited to dinner by someone with it either before now, but it is a traditional wild sourced edible over its range (Afghanistan Iran etc.) - the bulbs are sold on markets....
Nice pictures, but getting confused with all these Allium NOT aff. stipitatum NOT chelotum perhaps stipitatum after all pictures...
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Thanks for the invite - typical, invited to dinner and end up as cook.... ;) I've never partaken of Stipitatum as I've never succeeded with it and never been invited to dinner by someone with it either before now, but it is a traditional wild sourced edible over its range (Afghanistan Iran etc.) - the bulbs are sold on markets....
Nice pictures, but getting confused with all these Allium NOT aff. stipitatum NOT chelotum perhaps stipitatum after all pictures...
Confusion removed... edited the message to reflect the ID from Dr. Fritsch that my plant is A. altissimum, re-uploaded renamed images as well. And to be clear, the A. chelotum was not in question, it has been verified by Dr. Fritsch. Stephen, it you can make it here in May when the stipitatum foliage is still fresh and lush, you're most welcome to come for dinner (although I wouldn't know how to prepare the alliums, you still might need to do some cooking for us ;D).
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Flowering now in Central Vic. is Allium saxatile.
[attachthumb=1]
We aren't allowed to import this one into Australia because of its weed potential but it was already in the country when I bought it from a bulb seller! ;D
cheers
fermi
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Mark, thanks for sharing with us your knowledge and pictures of alliums.
This is what I found in a book published by Moscow agricultural academy about A.stipitatum & altissimum. Hope it will help.
"Bulbs of A.stipitatum are flattish round with a less prominent "nose" than that of A.aflatunense,100-200 gramms, yellow or dark yellow. The tunic is greyish white.The bulbs are divided into 2 or more parts unequal in size as a rule. The bulb forms 2-3 bulblets 0.8-2.0 centimeters in diameter joint to the mother bulb by stolons of different length.
Adult bulbs of A.altissimum are divided into 3-4 parts of an uneven shape and form a lot of bulblets thus A.altissimum grows in groups in nature. Weight of a separate bulb is 25-40 gramms. The top of the bulb is without a "nose".The bulbils seeking space can be at the upper part of the mother bulb. The bulbs are from light to dark yellow. .... A.altissimum has the narrowest and longest leaves in the group."
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Thanks Oleg. My bulbs are overdue for digging and dividing. The reason I never questioned the ID on my plants, is getting it from a well known bulb expert, and secondly, I've seen photos of A. stipitatum where it is a 3' (1 meter) plant but never have I seen 6' (2 meters) plants as mine grow. The bulb split a few years ago into about 5 bulbs, and now they don't grow as tall, only about 4.5 - 5 feet, so they are due to be dug up and replanted. When I do this, I shall observe and photograph the bulbs, for further ID diagnosis.
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Flowering now in Central Vic. is Allium saxatile.
We aren't allowed to import this one into Australia because of its weed potential but it was already in the country when I bought it from a bulb seller! ;D
It's a pleasant species, and even though it makes lots of seed, doesn't seed around too much and is well behaved in my garden. I like the light pink color form best (similar to yours), although I also have a dark pink form and a near-white form. I once had a light yellow form (aka syn. marshallianum) that was dwarf too, but lost it. In your photo, it it growing among a grass or sedge species, and a dianthus?
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In your photo, is it growing among a grass or sedge species, and a dianthus?
Yes, it's being smothered by a spreading clump of Dianthus "Allwoodii type hybrid" - which has obviously not been dead-headed! Also the dead allium foliage from last season is still in situ. :-[
It does seed it self around a little but not excessively - I think ordinary chives or garlic chives do so more than this one. ;D
Someone told me that it's unlikely that we'll get any other alliums onto the "allowed" list as AQIS/Biosecurity has decided the genus is too risky as at least two are noxious weeds already. So this will exclude a lot of the newly discovered or re-named species >:(
cheers
fermi
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Any suggestions for this one?
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Any suggestions for this one?
Looks like a white form of Allium saxatile to me. The long slender bulbs with orangish bulb coat is diagnostic.
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Thanks - it actually had a Allium saxatile label by it, but I was having doubts, so it sounds as though it was correct after all!!
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Mark, thanks for sharing with us your knowledge and pictures of alliums.
This is what I found in a book published by Moscow agricultural academy about A.stipitatum & altissimum. Hope it will help.
"Bulbs of A.stipitatum are flattish round with a less prominent "nose" than that of A.aflatunense,100-200 gramms, yellow or dark yellow. The tunic is greyish white.The bulbs are divided into 2 or more parts unequal in size as a rule. The bulb forms 2-3 bulblets 0.8-2.0 centimeters in diameter joint to the mother bulb by stolons of different length.
Adult bulbs of A.altissimum are divided into 3-4 parts of an uneven shape and form a lot of bulblets thus A.altissimum grows in groups in nature. Weight of a separate bulb is 25-40 gramms. The top of the bulb is without a "nose".The bulbils seeking space can be at the upper part of the mother bulb. The bulbs are from light to dark yellow. .... A.altissimum has the narrowest and longest leaves in the group."
A. aflatunense has very prominent "nose" and usually splits in two, rarely 3 replacemant bulbs. Stipitatum really is flattish and maks bulblets, very rarely splitting, but I didn't note any stolons. New bulbils are strongly attached between covering sheets of mother bulb. About my altissimum - never had specimens that could be verified without doubt, only common feature of all my stocks of allium named as altissimum were short living in my nursery and I stopped looking for it.
Janis
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To follow-up, here are photos of Allium chelotum from Iran, grows to little over 1 meter, attractive ball of pink flowers. Dr. Fritsch gave an "ok" on this one. Growing right next to it are the shooting buds of what I had received as Allium altissimum, which Dr. Fritsch suggests looks more like Allium stipitatum. It is a giant plant, growing to 6' (2 meters) and is the tallest species I've ever grown. I like how the buds and stems are phototropic, following the sun around, which typically ends up in comical bends and twists at the top of the stems.
I bet you StephenB would want to make a salad out of those succulent Allium aff. stipitatum leaves seen in photo #3.
-- Message modified to show identification of the tall purple Allium as A. stipitatum, not A. altissimum. Renamed photos too --
A. chelotum certainly looks true.
Janis
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Side by side is Allium oreophilum cv. 'Agaliks Giant' selected by me from wild material collected during my second mountain trip to Central Asia at heights of Agalik river not far from Samarkand. It is tallest of oreophilums grown by me and planted side by side with 'Jeannine' makes very nice border. Picture is very old, for very long my stocks of both cultivars are very small, but I still well remember how beautiful they both were stayin in same bed side by side.
Janis
One of my favorite forms of Allium oreophilum is one named A. oreophilum 'Torch', much better than the commonly available form. I got mine from Pacific Rim Nursery at http://www.hillkeep.ca/bulbs%20allium%20i-z.htm
The nursery description says "Native to Central Asia, it was selected for its straight stalk by Antoine Hoog from the Jánis Rukšáns selection A. oreophilum 'Agalik'. This straight-stemmed version charms all who see it. It is beautiful both in the rock garden and as a dinner-party centrepiece ." You have collected many forms of this species, what can you tell us about 'Torch', is the information in the nursery description accurate? In your book, I really like the dwarf selections you've made, such as 'Kursavli Curl'.
I uploaded two photos of A. oreophilum 'Torch' growing in my garden. I find this selection to be strong, but slow growing, with fleshy, waxy blue-gray foliage, and intensely colored heads of bloom. I've been scratching the seed into the soil around the parent plant, and lots of seedlings are coming up, no worries about hybrids as it is the only form I grow currently.
Thanks for sharing your photos and description of the Kara-Tau mountains.
I think that 'Torch' is identical with my 'Agalik's Giant', which I sent to Antoine many years ago.
Janis
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Another one I'm unsure of from my garden. I got it as Allium guttatum ssp. sardoum. What does thou think? Notice the bulbil. The flowers never opened much more than this.
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Another one I'm unsure of from my garden. I got it as Allium guttatum ssp. sardoum. What does thou think? Notice the bulbil. The flowers never opened much more than this.
Doesn't look right to me; not sure what it is, but I'm quite certain it is not A. guttatum ssp. sardoum. I uploaded a few photos. I grew it from 2001 - 2007 but no longer have it and must replace it because it is a unique and worthwhile species. Both ssp. sardoum and spp. dalmaticum are available from Pacific Rim Nursery:
http://www.hillkeep.ca/bulbs%20allium%20a-h.htm#Allium guttatum Steven subsp. sardoum
Once you've observed this plant it is fairly unmistakable, the tiny buds held out equally spaced, white with a dark mark, and the thin pedicels are bright white. The ssp. dalmaticum looks the same, except with purplish flowers (but the same white pedicels). Sorry about the poor quality of photographs, I used to borrow a mediocre digital camera back then.
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Janis,
What I quoted is the book by Jurjeva&kokoreva "Diversity of alliums and their use" 1992 ("Луки-анзуры" chapter).
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Janis,
What I quoted is the book by Jurjeva&kokoreva "Diversity of alliums and their use" 1992 ("Луки-анзуры" chapter).
Oleg,
My book-library of botanical books in Russian stopped renewing at 1990-91. May be you can send me link of "Izdatelstvo Nauka" for I can again start ordering of botanical literature in Russian?
Janis
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Doesn't look right to me; not sure what it is, but I'm quite certain it is not A. guttatum ssp. sardoum.
Here's another shot of my unknown Allium (obtained as A. guttatum ssp. sardoum) a couple of weeks later. Note the bulbil is mottled reddish. Help at all?
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Here's another shot of my unknown Allium (obtained as A. guttatum ssp. sardoum) a couple of weeks later. Note the bulbil is mottled reddish. Help at all?
Stephen, Allium section Allium within the genus, is perhaps the hardest section of all. I spend lots of time reading through Brian Mathew's excellent "A review of Allium section Allium" 1996, but these are a confusing lot to be sure. Allium guttatum is within section Allium but the presence of bulbils suggests a different species, although even that can be unreliable, as we've both found bulbilliferous versions of many alliums not typically reported as bulbilliferous.
It looks rather close to A. ampeloprasum, and incredibly variable species with a huge number of synonyms and varieties. While most often photos show pinkish plants, Mathew says the flowers "are usually white or pinkish" and sometimes with a dark green median vein. The leaves are distinctive (do you have a photo of the leaves), they are fairly wide and strongly keeled, but not fistulose. Here are a couple photos that sort of resemble your plant:
http://www.botanic.co.il/english/research/Allium/Allium_ampeloprasum.jpg
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/74930/
The other possibility, the ID that I believe is most likely, is Allium affine. Mathew reports "A. affine is undoubtedly related to A. guttatum". The flowers are described as whitish with a green median vein. This species is fairly unique in having long filiform bracteoles that are silvery white (although long lacinate silvery white bracteoles are also present in Allium ampeloprasum)... I believe I see some thready bracteoles in your photo. This species also has channeled or keeled leaves, but much narrower and fistulose. Here is a photo I found that closely resembles your plant:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tmtht/3687163542/
Better keep an eye on this one, looks like one of the bulbils is on the move ready to start a new plant. ;D
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Thanks for spending time on this, Mark! I'm pretty sure it's not ampeloprasum (I'll post pictures of the various cultivars that I grow afterwards) - the leaves are narrow, but more details will have to wait to spring. Your picture of affine definitely looks like my plant (a definite affinity ;))
However, I discovered another picture 2 years previously which I'm pretty sure is the same plant (or from the same original group of seedlings) and bulbil-less:
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Here are my ampeloprasum cultivars in flower (you can see the green median vein on some of them):
1) Elephant Garlic
2) and 3) Allium ampeloprasum "Oerprei" (means "old onion") and is an old perennial leek-like form grown in Belgium for the leaves.
4) Allium ampeloprasum babingtonii (Babington's Leek) - found wild along the coasts of Southern England and the Channel Islands, presumably escaped from cultivation (from bulbils and flowers but is sterile).
and
5) A picture of the bulbs of (from L to R): Sand Leek (from UK), Babington's Leek and Oerprei.
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I've also tried Allium ampeloprasum kurrat which is an old perennial leek grown in Egypt and the near east. It was described in a Swedish book as excellent and hardy, but I've discovered that what was being grown under that name in Sweden is Allium ramosum! Genuine seed from Turkey didn't make it through the winter here (despite protection).
I would love to get hold of the following superb form, the Yorktown onion which has naturalised on a small scale in quite a few states in the US:
http://www.yorkcounty.gov/ychc/main/york_onion.htm (http://www.yorkcounty.gov/ychc/main/york_onion.htm)
http://www.yorkcounty.gov/vce/progareas/....ACT%20SHEET.pdf (http://www.yorkcounty.gov/vce/progareas/....ACT%20SHEET.pdf)
(Edit: Sorry these links don't seem to be working at the moment - just Google images of Yorktown Onion and you'll see some pictures)
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=ALAM (http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=ALAM)
Have you seen it, Mark? Any idea how big the bulbs are?
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Thanks for spending time on this, Mark! I'm pretty sure it's not ampeloprasum (I'll post pictures of the various cultivars that I grow afterwards) - the leaves are narrow, but more details will have to wait to spring. Your picture of affine definitely looks like my plant (a definite affinity ;))
However, I discovered another picture 2 years previously which I'm pretty sure is the same plant (or from the same original group of seedlings) and bulbil-less:
Well Stephen, in your latest photograph, it certainly looks much more like A. guttatum ssp. sardoum, perhaps because the flower head is more fully expanded and there are no bulbils. Trying to ID alliums is full of pitfalls.... need to see flower heads at early anthesis (to see disposition of spathe valves, full anthesis, and possible even late anthesis (to see shape of flower head when capsules start forming), and most important, what the leaves look like. Regarding the bulbils, I have experienced plants that for some peculiar reason produced bulbils one year but not in other years, an aberration of sorts.
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Regarding Allium ampeloprasum, and the innumerable varieties and cultivars, this is practically a science unto itself. The flowers shown in your Allium ampeloprasum "Oerprei" are certainly attractive, with those deep red anthers, and nice closeup photos too.
The kurrat and porrum (leek) forms of A. ampeloprasum have been cultivated for thousands of years, and are only known from cultivation and are not known in the wild. I find this whole realm of the genus of only minor interest personally, preferring not to be caught up in the quagmire of infinite leek and garlic cultivars, when there are so many certifiable species to learn about.
In the so-called Yorktown Onion, it is a fully floriferous form of ampeloprasum, and sort of silly that it gets a name like "Yorktown" for the area in which it has invaded (as it is indeed a non-native invasive species there). I tried your links, there are not working as you suggest, but here are a couple that do work (need to Google: yorktown onion allium, to weed out (pun intended :D ) getting google hits on stores named "yorktown onion".
Yorktown Onion allium
http://www.studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=5036
http://www.yorkcounty.gov/Default.aspx?tabid=7242
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Well Stephen, in your latest photograph, it certainly looks much more like A. guttatum ssp. sardoum, perhaps because the flower head is more fully expanded and there are no bulbils. Trying to ID alliums is full of pitfalls.... need to see flower heads at early anthesis (to see disposition of spathe valves, full anthesis, and possible even late anthesis (to see shape of flower head when capsules start forming), and most important, what the leaves look like. Regarding the bulbils, I have experienced plants that for some peculiar reason produced bulbils one year but not in other years, an aberration of sorts.
Thanks - I thought so too, but it didn't look quite so spectacular as the pictures you posted... I'll have to have a proper look at the leaves later on - I remember that new leaves appeared in the autumn. Of course, we could be looking at two different plants, but I think there was only one plant there.
You're looking a bit old and weary these days......too much avatar work, perhaps?
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Thanks - I thought so too, but it didn't look quite so spectacular as the pictures you posted... I'll have to have a proper look at the leaves later on - I remember that new leaves appeared in the autumn. Of course, we could be looking at two different plants, but I think there was only one plant there.
You're looking a bit old and weary these days......too much avatar work, perhaps?
Not sure what's causing the aging, maybe my avatar should give up pipe smoking :D
But other than being framed, that's a picture of me taken May 2008 (us McDonoughs don't age well, that's why I run, to stay ahead of the aging).
Regarding A. guttatum, neither subspecies sardoum or dalmaticum sprouted leaves in the fall that I can remember. By the way, in Mathew's treatment on Allium section Allium, a new subspecies is defined, A. guttatum ssp. dilatatum, from Crete, white flowered with dark spot as in sardoum, but inner perianth segments to 5 mm long (2-4 mm in sardoum).
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Mark: Good to see your Avatar is now a smokefree zone and that you are keeping ahead (by a few feet) of the ageing.
Here's a picture of a mystery Allium from a garden in Tromsø last summer. I think I posted it before but couldn't find it - in any case that would have been B.McM (Before McM, which is any time before December 13th 2009, today being 69 A.McM and a year's worth of posts (or 365) already (for a normal poster)! Keep it up.. the finishing line is a long way ahead....
Anyway, I don't think I've seen an Allium that looks like this before. Is this normal and diagnostic or should this be moved to the freaky aberrations thread? My friend gave me a plant, but it hasn't flowered yet. He had it as Allium acutiflorum (which made me think of Allium acutifolium which would describe it better - although that species doesn't exist).
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Anyway, I don't think I've seen an Allium that looks like this before. Is this normal and diagnostic or should this be moved to the freaky aberrations thread? My friend gave me a plant, but it hasn't flowered yet. He had it as Allium acutiflorum (which made me think of Allium acutifolium which would describe it better - although that species doesn't exist).
It is an odd one isn't it? I don't recall my plants having foliage that looked like that, yes the few leaves sheath the lower 1/5 to 1/3 of the stem, but the alternating zig-zag look on your plant seems odd. It also seems to be stoloniferous, with stolons visible in both views. Do the leaves have an alliacious scent if cut or bruised? Also odd, given that A. acutiflorum is native to France and part of Italy, is the paucity of information and photos on the web... I can find only a few photos of the flowers, but nothing showing foliage. The only decent flower photo is found on Paul Christian's RarePlants Nursery site, showing fine pink flowers, reminding me how much I liked this species when I did grow it for a number of years.
PS. I do remember seeing these photos in the B.McM SRGC days, in the Allium 2009 thread, and they similarly struck me as a somewhat bizzare plant not reminiscent of A. acutiflorum.
http://shop.rareplants.co.uk/popuplargeimage.asp?s=4rgwt7466253&strImage=4692.jpg&strImageType=version&strPageTitle=Allium acutiflorum
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Janis,
What I quoted is the book by Jurjeva&kokoreva "Diversity of alliums and their use" 1992 ("Луки-анзуры" chapter).
Oleg,
My book-library of botanical books in Russian stopped renewing at 1990-91. May be you can send me link of "Izdatelstvo Nauka" for I can again start ordering of botanical literature in Russian?
Janis
[/quote Sorry for the delay, Janis. The link is www.naukaran.ru
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I'd like to share some interesting information on variability in Allium cristophii, that came by way of Kurt Vickery. The following photos by Kurt show two collections of a plant with close affinity to familiar Allium cristophii, but with obvious differences: beige-white flower color, much narrower tepals, dark red ovaries, and ribbed leaves that are densely hirsute.
Collection information is:
KV51 Iran Khorrasan 75km W of Bojnurd 1200m
KV60 As above 70km W of Bojnurd
Kurt comments: some years the inflorescence is 25cm accross! Also the withered leaf ends look like this in the wild.
I asked Dr. Reinhard Fritsch, noted expert on the genus Allium as they occur in Iran, for his opinion:
Several years ago I collected such plants in Turkmenistan as well as in Golestan reservation in Iran. Wendelbo (1970: tab. 26 fig. 1) accepted them as A. cristophii.
In this area also another truly red flowering potential subspecies of A. cristophii occurs, and a second one with rose flowers. I intend to describe all these taxa together as soon as I will be able to gather sufficient and reliable information, especially on leaf and scape characters as well as variation of flower parts. Sorry, at the moment I can only name it "A. cristophii s. lat."
Perhaps it should be no surprise after many years with A. karataviense only represented by a single color form, giving us little impression of the true variability of the species. Well, along the same lines, we know A. cristophii as it's been cultivated and mass produced for many decades probably from a single form, but again it is still surprising to learn that this species too is actually highly variable. I can just imagine a deep red or pink color form mentioned by Dr. Fritsch.
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I'd like to share some interesting information on variability in Allium cristophii, that came by way of Kurt Vickery. The following photos show two collections of a plant with close affinity to familiar Allium cristophii, but with obvious differences: beige-white flower color, much narrower tepals, dark red ovaries, and ribbed leaves that are densely hirsute.
Collection information is:
KV51 Iran Khorrasan 75km W of Bojnurd 1200m
KV60 As above 70km W of Bojnurd
Kurt comments: some years the inflorescence is 25cm accross! Also the withered leaf ends look like this in the wild.
I asked Dr. Reinhard Fritsch, noted expert on the genus Allium as they occur in Iran, for his opinion:
Several years ago I collected such plants in Turkmenistan as well as in Golestan reservation in Iran. Wendelbo (1970: tab. 26 fig. 1) accepted them as A. cristophii.
In this area also another truly red flowering potential subspecies of A. cristophii occurs, and a second one with rose flowers. I intend to describe all these taxa together as soon as I will be able to gather sufficient and reliable information, especially on leaf and scape characters as well as variation of flower parts. Sorry, at the moment I can only name it "A. cristophii s. lat."
Perhaps it should be no surprise, after many years with A. karataviense was only represented by a single color form, giving us little impression of the true variability of the species. Well, along the same lines, we know A. cristophii as it's been cultivated and mass produced for many decades probably from a single form, and again it is surprising to learn that the species is actually highly variable. I can just imagine a deep red or pink color form mentioned by Dr. Fritsch.
Plant of similar color from E part of Kopet-dag (Ashgabad to Arvaz, Tadjikistan) is pictured in my BURRIED TREASURES under name A. bodeanum, not accepted more and regarded as A. christophii by Dr. Fritsch. Few other my aquisitions from Iran side of kopetdag has bright purple flowers, two has very hairy leaves, two almost nude leaves. May be Reihardt is right that there are two subspecies (or more?) at present regarded as A. christophii.
Can't show you pictures of those at present. Here again heavy snowing and I can't reach my nursery before roads again will be cleaned. There are another computer with pictures in my office at nursery (15 km from my house). We have thickest snow cover in last 100 years. Think that tonight and tomorrow some more 10-15 cm will be added.
Janis
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Plant of similar color from E part of Kopet-dag (Ashgabad to Arvaz, Tadjikistan) is pictured in my BURRIED TREASURES under name A. bodeanum, not accepted more and regarded as A. christophii by Dr. Fritsch. Few other my aquisitions from Iran side of kopetdag has bright purple flowers, two has very hairy leaves, two almost nude leaves. May be Reihardt is right that there are two subspecies (or more?) at present regarded as A. christophii.
Can't show you pictures of those at present. Here again heavy snowing and I can't reach my nursery before roads again will be cleaned. There are another computer with pictures in my office at nursery (15 km from my house). We have thickest snow cover in last 100 years. Think that tonight and tomorrow some more 10-15 cm will be added.
Janis
Thanks Janis. I have another ID being checked, of a collection labelled as A. bodeanum, but here again, it'll probably be sunk into a broader definition of A. cristophii. As soon as I hear back on this one, I shall post it.
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First, sorry about the length of this post, but the subject has been a long-standing mystery and requires some level of detail. I'm also sorry about the poor quality of images, all are scans from slides taken circa 1985.
In the late 1970s I subscribed to the MacPhail & Watson expedition to Turkey, receiving bulbs and seeds of several alliums. The species shown below were later identified as A. tchihatschewii Mac.&W.5766 by the collection team. Curiously, from the few small bulbs received, two different species resulted, obviously something got mixed up. The collection resulted in the mauve-pink flowered Alliums shown below, and a dwarf purplish-maroon species that keyed to A. sivasicum (in the recorded purple phase of that species).
Using Davis's key in the Flora of Turkey, the mauve-pink allium keyed out to one of several closely allied species, A. sieheanum coming closest, based upon that species noted as having "fastigiate-hemispherical" umbels. Rather puzzling however, from both bulb and from seed-grown plants, two distinctly different forms arose, one with dense capitate heads of tightly closed, orbicular flowers, and another form with loose, open heads of bloom, but with the exact same grape-like orbicular florets. The flower heads were 2" (5cm) across on stems 6-8" (15-20 cm) tall, flowering in mid summer. Flowers were sweetly fragrant, with a fruity plum-like scent.
In growth, the bulbs and leaves of both types were identical. Was I seeing two species, or one species able to have either dense capitate heads or loose heads? To add to the mystery, I had one seedling perfectly intermediate between both dispositions, with dense-ish heads but the pedicels tending to droop and open up a bit. Since they all flowered at exactly the same time, I imagined the flower-head characteristic to be variable, or possible the plants represent a swarm of natural hybrids. And to rule out the question of bulb maturity, both the dense and open-headed forms represent fully mature plants in my photos.
Adding to the riddle, both the dense-headed and loose-headed forms each produced green-stemmed forms and silver-stemmed forms, much the way Allium flavum shows similar green-to-silver stem and leaf color variation. After growing these plants for over 20 years, being difficult and recalcitrant, they slowly dwindling away and all are lost.
In the drawing of Allium sieheanum, it is interesting to see evidence of the bulb growth cycle. By the time the flowering stem appears, the original bulb is all but gone, and a fresh new offset bulb has replaced it. The foliage has withered away with only the basal leaf sheaths remaining, the new foliage emerging just as the flowers reach full anthesis. Also note the long, unequal, persistent spathe segments, and the soil line indicated with a dashed line.
My mystery onions are among a confusing group of Turkish Alliums that share a general "look" about them, including the species armenum, huber-morathii, sieheanum, wendelboanum, balansae, tchihatschewii, olympicum (the real olympicum, not the one going around under that name which is kurtzianum), and even pulchellum and stamineum. I invited Janis to post some photos of A. tchihatschewii as he has it in his fabulous bulb catalog for 2010... the photos he sent me certainly look like a much stronger match!), as well as a couple other of these closely-related species. I too will post photos of plants sent to me by Arnis Seisums as A. sieheanum, but which I think are probably A. wendelboanum (looking like the plants in Janis' photos).
Some Van Flora links to offer more clues:
http://vanherbaryum.yyu.edu.tr/flora/famgenustur/allium.htm
Allium tchihatschewii
http://vanherbaryum.yyu.edu.tr/flora/famgenustur/li/al/tc/index.htm
The dried herbarium specimens look possibly correct, the flowering plant close-up clearly is not right, looks like the typical A. sivasicum form with yellowish flowers tinged with brown or purple
Allium armenum
http://vanherbaryum.yyu.edu.tr/flora/famgenustur/li/al/ar/index.htm
Allium wendelboanum
http://vanherbaryum.yyu.edu.tr/flora/famgenustur/li/al/we/index.htm
Photo notes:
1 Allium aff. sieheanum - dense head type, early anthesis
2 Allium aff. sieheanum - dense head type, early-mid anthesis
3 Allium aff. sieheanum - dense head type, full anthesis
4 Allium aff. sieheanum - 2 dense heads, full anthesis
5 Allium aff. sieheanum - loose head type, full anthesis
6 Allium aff. sieheanum - intermediate head type, full anthesis
7 Allium aff. sieheanum - foliage
8 Line drawing of Allium aff. sieheanum - dense head type
9 Allium aff. sivasicum (purple phase)
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Next are four views of a delightful little Allium that came to me as A. sieheanum from Arnis Seisums. The collection date is: Turkey, S of Cerkes, HN 0102-N22, coll. E. Hanslik.
I do not believe this is A. sieheanum, a species described as having umbels that are "fastigiate-hemispherical"... the umbels are anything but fastigiate. This seems much closer to A. huber-morathii. This one is still going strong in my garden (hope I didn't jinx it) after about 7-8 years in the garden.
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In attachments 3 different Allium christophii (WHIR - Iran) in my collection.
Janis
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.... seems much closer to A. huber-morathii.....
Mark, I've never heard of Allium huber-morathii - sounds like a good plant which I must have in my garden ;D
Do you have a photo?
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.... seems much closer to A. huber-morathii.....
Mark, I've never heard of Allium huber-morathii - sounds like a good plant which I must have in my garden ;D
Do you have a photo?
In attachment Allium huber-morathii pictures. Plant identified by Arnis Seisums, name not checked by me.
Janis
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Fascinating stuff, Mark and Janis!
Mark: Your latest down under avatar drew my thoughts to southern hemisphere Alliums - I think I read somewhere that there's only one species endemic to the south, in South Africa - is that correct?
Thomas: A quick search on the IPNI data base http://www.ipni.org/ipni/plantnamesearchpage.do shows that there are some 20 species with the huber-morathii epithet and one huberii. You should start a collection - it would be a real challenge I think. Let me know if you get hold of Sideritis huber-morathii, on my wants list...
Wouldn't it be an idea if all Southern Hemisphere members had upside down avatars(or vice-versa), then we would see at a glance which season said member was in?
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Thanks for the photos, Janis. Surely a must-have for me.
And thanks Stephen for your research - didn't know that my namesake was so active.
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Mark: Your latest down under avatar drew my thoughts to southern hemisphere Alliums - I think I read somewhere that there's only one species endemic to the south, in South Africa - is that correct?
Yes, sort of... A. dregeanum. In "A Revision of Genus Allium L. (Liliaceae) in Africa" by Brigitta De Wilde-Duyfjes, 1976, (237 pages), it is thoroughly described and illustrated. However, their remains doubt whether the species is of true South African origin, or represents a very early introduction that became naturalized. It closely resembles A. ampeloprasum from Europe and North Africa, the author stating the "differences with A. ampeloprasum are small". It also closely resembles the European A. rotundum and scorodoprasum, in fact other authors have at times placed the South African plants under each of those species. After a lot of discussion and conjecture, the author states that "I have decided to accept A. dregeanum as a separate species". Brian Mathew in "A Review of Allium section Allium" 1996, raises the same issue, but seems to favor the indigenous route as he casts doubt on the early introduction theory.
Thomas: A quick search on the IPNI data base http://www.ipni.org/ipni/plantnamesearchpage.do shows that there are some 20 species with the huber-morathii epithet and one huberii. You should start a collection - it would be a real challenge I think. Let me know if you get hold of Sideritis huber-morathii, on my wants list...
If you use a wildcard character in the IPNI name search, using huber* in the species name search, you also get the following:
huberi 150 citations
huberana 3 citations
huberiana 22 citations
huberioides 4 citations
Thomas, you are going to by one super busy guy amassing your Huberetum ;D
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Mark: Your latest down under avatar drew my thoughts to southern hemisphere Alliums - I think I read somewhere that there's only one species endemic to the south, in South Africa - is that correct?
Yes, sort of... A. dregeanum. In "A Revision of Genus Allium L. (Liliaceae) in Africa" by Brigitta De Wilde-Duyfjes, 1976, (237 pages), it is thoroughly described and illustrated. However, their remains doubt whether the species is of true South African origin, or represents a very early introduction that became naturalized. It closely resembles A. ampeloprasum from Europe and North Africa, the author stating the "differences with A. ampeloprasum are small". It also closely resembles the European A. rotundum and scorodoprasum, in fact other authors have at times placed the South African plants under each of those species. After a lot of discussion and conjecture, the author states that "I have decided to accept A. dregeanum as a separate species". Brian Mathew in "A Review of Allium section Allium" 1996, raises the same issue, but seems to favor the indigenous route as he casts doubt on the early introduction theory.
A. dregeanum is less hardy here. I lost it once in winter, but just now got replacement bulb. Will see how it will pass this winter.
Janis
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If you use a wildcard character in the IPNI name search, using huber* in the species name search, you also get the following:
huberi 150 citations
huberana 3 citations
huberiana 22 citations
huberioides 4 citations
Thomas, you are going to by one super busy guy amassing your Huberetum ;D
That's not all - search with two wild cards *huber* and the following huberiferous genera appear:
Apiaceae Schubertia Blume -- Bijdr. Fl. Ned. Ind. 15: 884. 1826 [Jul-Dec 1826] (IK)
Asclepiadaceae Schubertia Mart. -- Nov. Gen. Sp. Pl. (Martius) i. 55. t. 33 (1824). (IK)
Asteraceae Hinterhubera Sch.Bip. -- Flora 24(1, Intelligenzbl.): 42 (1841); 25: 419 (
Asteraceae Huberopappus Pruski -- Novon 2: 19. 1992 (GCI)
Asteraceae Hubertia Bory -- Voy. i. 334. t. 14 (1804). (IK)
Bombacaceae Huberodendron Ducke -- Arq. Inst. Biol. Veg. 2(1): 59. 1935 [Sep 1935] (GCI)
Caesalpiniaceae Jacqueshuberia Ducke -- Arch. Jard. Bot. Rio de Janeiro 3: 118. 1922 (GCI)
Incertae_sedis Schuberta St.-Lag. -- Ann. Soc. Bot. Lyon viii. (1881) 171. (IK)
Lauraceae Huberodaphne Ducke -- Arch. Jard. Bot. Rio de Janeiro iv. 191 (1925). (IK)
Lecythidaceae Neohuberia Ledoux -- in Lecointea No. 1, 3 (1963); cf. Gray Herb. Card Cat. (IK)
Melastomataceae Huberia DC. -- Prodr. (DC.) 3: 167. 1828 [mid Mar 1828] (IK)
Taxodiaceae Schubertia Mirb. -- in Nouv. Bull. Soc. Philom. iii. (1812) 123. (IK)
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Definitely too many Huber's for my garden - time to find Crocus huberii 8)
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In the photo below is a plant that I received as Allium
aff. bucharicum RRW00129 from S of Marand, W-Azerbayjan Iran. Recently I heard that A. bucharicum is not the correct name.
Could somebody post a photo of a confirmed A. bucharicum ?
Any suggestions as to its correct name ? A. materculae ?
Update: the plant below is positively identified as A. materculae ssp materculae var albiflorum
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In the photo below is a plant that I received as Allium aff. bucharicum RRW00129 from S of Marand, W-Azerbayjan Iran. Recently I heard that A. bucharicum is not the correct name.
Could somebody post a photo of a confirmed A. bucharicum ?
Any suggestions as to its correct name ? A. materculae ?
Don't think that it is bucharicum. A. bucharicum comes from very S of Tadjikistan and adjecent Afganistan. It is very difficult and as I know was grown for a pair of years before lost only by Arnis Seisums. As bucharicum often is offered A.protensum (named as bucharicum in some Russian Floras, question cleared by Wendelbo in Flora Iranica), growing wild in Uzbekistan (not very difficult, very nice).
Janis
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In the photo below is a plant that I received as Allium aff. bucharicum RRW00129 from S of Marand, W-Azerbayjan Iran. Recently I heard that A. bucharicum is not the correct name.
Could somebody post a photo of a confirmed A. bucharicum ?
Any suggestions as to its correct name ? A. materculae ?
Luc, a beautiful and fascinating Allium, a study in green and white, the close-up photo particularly intriguing. I agree with Janis this cannot be A. bucharicum, a species with much more open flower heads similar to A. schubertii. Janis mentions A. protensum, a species often erroneously sent out under the name "bucharicum". I once flowered A. protensum, and it is another one along the lines of schubertii with enormous open heads of bloom up to 30 cm across (mine was only about 18 cm across), the tan-brown flower color distinctive indeed, looking like an Allium already in seed rather than flowering, almost invisible when in flower! It died after its big flowering hurrah.
You suggested A. materculae, probably a much closer fit, as the species is described as having a fasciculate flower head similar to your plant, the flower head eventually becoming hemispherical. Dr. Reinhard Fritch has published a recent description of the species and a new subspecies (ssp. graveolens) in Iran.
NEW TAXA AND OTHER CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE TAXONOMY OF ALLIUM L. (ALLIACEAE) IN IRAN by FRITSCH and ABBASI
http://www.sid.ir/en/VEWSSID/J_pdf/80220080201.pdf
In Dr. Fritsch's treatment of A. materculae ssp. materculae, he describes the flowers as having narrow linear tepals, the color of the tepals dominated by a relatively broad green to brown median vein, and stamen filament color white to purplish. Your plant seems a close match.
But since there are so many new Iranian Allium species, including 8 new species Dr. Fritsch has just sent for publication, it might be best if I send your photos to him for his first-hand opinion.
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Mark,
Thank you for the link to this most interesting text.
Once more you see that we are in need of an up-to-date monograph of the species allium.
And thanks for consulting Dr. Fritsch !
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To finish up on my discussion on confusing Allium species from the MacPhail and Watson expedition to Turkey, here are two photos taken by Janis Ruksans showing the true Allium tchihatschewii, certainly a cute little allium. Janis allowed me to post his photos, as he is busy preparing for a trip to Turkey tomorrow, let's hope he finds all sorts of wonderful bulbs to show us on this forum. For those who might be interested, Allium tchihatschewii is available in Janis' 2010 bulb catalog, along with 76 other alliums! :o :o :o
I also include two links to herbarium specimens of Allium tchihatschewii, as further confirmation of the species identity.
Allium tchihatschewii - herbarium specimens
http://vanherbaryum.yyu.edu.tr/flora/famgenustur/li/al/tc/images/Allium%20tchihatschewii%20BOISS_%20%20%20%20_jpg.jpg
http://vanherbaryum.yyu.edu.tr/flora/famgenustur/li/al/tc/images/Alliumtchih.jpg
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Allium hieruchuntinum is in full bloom at the moment, the photo was taken today in the Jordan Vally, north to the city of Jericho.
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Allium hieruchuntinum is in full bloom at the moment, the photo was taken today in the Jordan Vally, north to the city of Jericho.
Thanks for posting this Oron, it is a species that I have always been interested in and tried growing once (unsuccessfully), one of the relatively few (~20 species) blue-flowered species in a genus of near 1000 species. How tall is the plant, it looks to be about 30 cm? Did you find just the one plant, or do they occur in bigger populations? How much variability do you see? In photos I've looked at, there seems to be considerable variability, sometimes with very dense heads and a much higher bud-count than your plant pictured.
Regardless, it is very satisfying to see such a clear close-up photo of this legendary species. I did see your earlier posting of Allium orientale... interesting to see just how consistant this species seems to be, without much variation. An interesting species nonetheless.
Regards,
Mark McDonough
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Mark
A. hieruchuntinum is restricted to relatively small area, usually in small groups, few dosens to few hundreds in each location, but quite distant from each other.
Mature plants in flower are 10-40 cm high, measures of the inflorescence is much variable, from 1cm to about 3cm in diameter, some with more compact appearance others less.
Despite its diminutive measures it is a stunner.
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absolutely a stunner indeed ! Thank you Oron
Dom
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Mark:
Thank you for starting this link---on behalf of all of us who love "those nasty onions" (ex Mr. Porteous of the Ontario Rock Garden Society)...
Am very grateful for the joint expertise offered here and will surely return, again and again, as the season progresses in the hopes of identifying so many no-names or incorrectly-named species.
Maggi---may I vote for this topic to be transferred into the "Topics Too Good To Lose" section.
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Mark:
Thank you for starting this link---on behalf of all of us who love "those nasty onions" (ex Mr. Porteous of the Ontario Rock Garden Society)...
Am very grateful for the joint expertise offered here and will surely return, again and again, as the season progresses in the hopes of identifying so many no-names or incorrectly-named species.
Maggi---may I vote for this topic to be transferred into the "Topics Too Good To Lose" section.
It appears that the Scottish emigrant to Canada, Barrie Porteous, has the same attitude to onions as Ian Young has to snowdrops! ;)
Ian and I have discussed your proposal to move this thread, Kristl, but we have decided that it is better left here in the Bulb Section where it is logically placed meantime. I'll set the topic "sticky" so it is at the "front" of the section. At the end of the year we might rename it and move it then.
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It appears that the Scottish emigrant to Canada, Barrie Porteous, has the same attitude to onions as Ian Young has to snowdrops! ;)
Yes Maggi, but knowing said devious Mr. Porteous you can be almost certain he has a large collection of Alliums tucked away at his cottage. It's been awhile and I must write to him, I was sure he was English! ;)
johnw
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It's been awhile and I must write to him, I was sure he was English! Wink
Gracious me!Really? The thought never occurred to me.... he used to live in Edinburgh and his dear Mother (who may no longer be alive) who still lived in Edinburgh, was a happy golfing lady, whose pedigree I never questioned :-X
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It's been awhile and I must write to him, I was sure he was English! Wink
Gracious me!Really? The thought never occurred to me.... he used to live in Edinburgh and his dear Mother (who may no longer be alive) who still lived in Edinburgh, was a happy golfing lady, whose pedigree I never questioned :-X
Let's just say we will soon find out if he is a lurker!
johnw
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Mark:
Thank you for starting this link---on behalf of all of us who love "those nasty onions" (ex Mr. Porteous of the Ontario Rock Garden Society)...
Am very grateful for the joint expertise offered here and will surely return, again and again, as the season progresses in the hopes of identifying so many no-names or incorrectly-named species.
Maggi---may I vote for this topic to be transferred into the "Topics Too Good To Lose" section.
Thanks Kristl for your vote of confidence, and to Maggi for making the topic "sticky" :o. So, let's get back to those nasty onions. Always the first to bloom for me is a controversial one, Allium paradoxum var. normale. Vilified as a terrible pest by many, and probably warranting this claim in the type species that has largish bulbils spoiling the inflorescence, in var. normale there are no bulbils, just a head of lovely drooping pure white bell-shaped flowers. My plant is from a Paul Furse 5085 collection in Iran.
At least here in New England, it shall never become a pest, as it is slightly less hardy than it needs to be to prosper. After nearly 20 years growing this, I'm down to a few bulbs. The problem is, the foliage comes up very early, but is not very frost-proof, nor are the early flower buds, and in many years it gets whacked by late frosts. My photos will demonstrate an example this year, where after our earliest spring in the last 10 years, suddenly a few days ago it went down to 18 degrees F (-9 C), and it turned some of the foliage to mush, although the buds survived.
So why was it name paradoxum (meaning strange or anomalous)? I could not find anything online to suggest an answser, the only publication which might offer an answer is "A PARADOXICAL ONION, ALLIUM PARADOXUM var. NORMALE (p 194-201) William T. Stearn" published in Curtis's Botanical Magazine; Volume 4, Issue 4, although I do not have access to a free version of that publication.
I'm going to take a guess, the anomalous aspect of this allium is the disposition of the single leaf each bulb produces. With a casual glance, you'd think the leaf is normal, a broad arching leaf of a shining light green color. However, the leaves curiously have a raised mid vein on the "upper" surface... unheard of! Upon closer inspection, one realizes the leaves are actually upsidedown! Yes, the leaf comes up and arches forward over the growing point, protecting the emerging flower bud beneath, presenting the shiny, raised-veined underside of the leaf to the sky! A paradox to be sure. The true "upper" surface of the leaf is matte (not shining) and no visible midvein.
Photo 1 - 5 bulbs/leaves emerging, March 26, 2010, the bulbs being overtaken by an Allium senescens/nutans hybrid which fill my Allium beds.
Photo 2 - two days later, March 28, 2010, showing the leaf damage after a night that went down to -9C.
Photo 3 - lifting the upsidedown leaf to reveal the emerging spathed buds.
Photo 4 - plants in flower, taken May 8, 2001
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Found this allium ursinum last year. It emerged the same way.
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Found this allium ursinum last year. It emerged the same way.
Hi Axel, a most interesting variegation, thanks for sharing this! While variegation is relatively rare in Allium, it does occur. I have a couple young plants of a variegated Allium nutans form, both are weak growers. In my garden in 2009, I found two seedlings of Allium angulosum that were variegated, one to an extreme amount (nearly all white), although both were eaten to the ground by a woodchuck (probably as delectable as blanched asparagus), so hopefully they will come back to life this year.
And, I offer up a photo of three variegated forms of Allium tricoccum found by Darrell Probst in central Massachusetts, USA, in 2009, showing varying degrees of variegation, whether white or yellow on green, or deep purple on green. It is certainly worth checking out such plants, and if they are consistent from year to year, to consider introducing them.
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Hello Allium fans,
I am privileged to be in receipt of a recent beautifully produced publication focusing on garlic and the genus Allium, "Garlic and Other Alliums: The Lore and the Science", By Eric Block, Published by The Royal Society of Chemistry, Cambridge, UK
RSCPublishing: http://www.rsc.org/shop/books/
2010, 474 p., Hardcover
ISBN: 978-0-85404-190-9
Dr. Eric Block is a professor of Chemistry at the University at Albany, State University of New York (SUNY), well known for decades for work done on the complicated chemistry of Allium species.
The link above includes downloadable PDFs for the entire Chapter 1, Table of Contents, and Author Information.
The book is also available from Google Books
Many more tantalizing preview pages available here... dig in and take a look :o :o
Use the "Contents button, and other viewing button options, for your preferred viewing experience.
http://books.google.com/books?id=6AB89RHV9ucC&printsec=frontcover&dq=garlic+and+other+alliums&ei=uR8cS8etEofkyQSJ783fCw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
I upload a screen capture showing the Google Books site that offers a sampling of book content, and an image of the book cover showing the serpent garlic.
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As follow-up to the previous posting about the new book Garlic and Other Alliums: The Lore and the Science, the author Dr. Eric Block asks the following:
"I have access to a unique instrument (DART Mass Spectrometer) which makes it possible to very rapidly identify the strong-smelling sulfur containing volatiles from the leaves, shoots or bulbs of any Allium species, which can be very useful for taxonomy.
It would great to ask the SRGC readers about their choices for very strongly smelling alliums as well as the chances of my obtaining reasonably fresh samples for testing. I would also be interested in "exotic" alliums from "exotic" locations."
If you have information to contribute to Dr. Eric Block's scientific efforts, he can be contacted at: eb801@albany.edu
Photo uploaded showing a DART-MS (Direct Analysis in Real Time Mass Spectrometry) machine... impressive! :o
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I always suggest that is important to retry growing the same species from multiple sources. Too often our knowledge of any plant species is from a single mass-produced source, certainly true with bulbs, depriving our knowledge of the true breadth of variability of a plant species. Even something as common as nodding onion, Allium cernuum, can be had in amazingly diverse and beautiful forms (and nondescript ugly forms) from such efforts.
So it is true with Allium caeruleum, widely cultivated and surely mass-produced from a single clone for many decades. The problem is, the plant widely available in fall bulb bins at local nursery centers is an inferior form; flowers are indeed a good dark blue, but there's a tendency to produce an odd bulbil or two or three in the inflorescence, the flower heads often with amusingly weird aberrant florets.... multi-petaled ones, fused florets, or situations where a stamen morphs into a pedicel and sprouts one or more flowers from within a flower :o :o. Invariably the widely cultivated type is short-lived, only flowering well the first year after planting, dying out quickly in subsequent years. They're cheap enough to buy, but I was tired of these bad habits and replanting bulbs every couple of years.
Then one day, Panayoti Kelaidis sent me a photo of this blue allium growing at Denver Botanic Garden (DBG), and I couldn't believe my eyes... a gorgeous form with brilliant azure blue flowers in heads larger than normal, and taller too. Afterwards, he sent me a good crop of bulbs. Determined to get a good form established, I planted bulbs out in 7-8 spots around the garden, hoping to find just the right spot to the plant's liking. And sure enough, the bulbs only really prospered in one location, the successful one now forming basal offsets and bulblets to try again in other locations. Here are some photos of what I have dubbed the 'DBG Form'.
1. Allium caeruleum in a mixed planting at Denver Botanic Garden, beautiful!
2. close-up of the same planting
3. In my garden, a close-up of a single flower head in 2008, 3" (7.5 cm) in diameter.
4. In my garden, several azure flower heads in 2009, at early anthesis with intense color of young buds.
5. In late summer, bulblets can be found at the stem bases bulging friom the basal leaf sheaths, harvest and replant.
6. Spring growth 2010 shows much dividing and increasing, some of the bulblets replanted near mother plant are sprouting.
(Aster pilosus growing nearby... I must post on the "Frost Aster")
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Thanks very much for the book link, OnionMan - need some time to digest (I think the chemistry will go over my head though, not being my best subject - nevertheless, fascinating to learn that the chemistry is so complicated - adds a new dimension...).
Allium paradoxum: I've had the weedy one in my garden for some time and it's spread only slowly. I would normally be eating it at this time of year, but the very cold winter seems to have killed it.... :( Interesting what you say about the leaves.
Variegation: this is something I'd often wondered about as I'd never come across a variegated Allium although I have a nice variegated Tulbaghia violacea (Silver Lace). Incidentally, I find the Tulbaghias very strong smelling...
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Thanks very much for the book link, OnionMan - need some time to digest (I think the chemistry will go over my head though, not being my best subject - nevertheless, fascinating to learn that the chemistry is so complicated - adds a new dimension...).
Variegation: this is something I'd often wondered about as I'd never come across a variegated Allium although I have a nice variegated Tulbaghia violacea (Silver Lace). Incidentally, I find the Tulbaghias very strong smelling...
Chemistry goes way over my head too... thank goodness for smart folks like Dr. Block to help advance the sciences. But I'm able to glean enough from the information to arrive at that new dimension :D
Tulbaghia is a fascinating genus, I've grown a number over the years, although presently without any. All parts of the plant stink if bruised, so it's interesting that the often tiny flowers can pack such powerfully sweet perfumes (overcompensating for it's stinkiness no doubt ;D). That said, I encourage people to take a look around at David Fenwick's The African Garden site at: http://www.theafricangarden.com/page42.html, I'm sure a familiar destination to SRGC members.
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Dr. Eric Block has shared with me a few photos taken while visiting the St. Petersburg Botanical Garden in Russia in 2008, showing an most attractive form of Allium caeruleum growing there. Eric gave permission to share these with you.
1. Allium caeruleum - closeup
2. Allium caeruleum - blue drumsticks
3. Allium caeruleum - bulb
4. view of a section of the garden where the alliums were growing, St. Petersburg Botanical Garden 2008
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Couldn't resist showing it again, A. hierochuntinum, this time from North Jordan, not far from the border with Syria.
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Couldn't resist showing it again, A. hierochuntinum, this time from North Jordan, not far from the border with Syria.
Oron, it is a beautiful allium, a stunning photo with the red-striped spathe! I can see the scabrid texture of the flower midveins. Thanks for posting this blue beauty (and the Onco pics in the Onco Iris thread - WOW!)
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Another beauty from ten days ago from the upper Galilee, Allium asclepiadeum.
This species which grows only in one location in Israel is described in Flora Palestina as a form of A. nigrum but it is very different and lately i came to know that it is growing in Lebanon as well.
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And, I offer up a photo of three variegated forms of Allium tricoccum found by Darrell Probst in central Massachusetts, USA, in 2009, showing varying degrees of variegation, whether white or yellow on green, or deep purple on green. It is certainly worth checking out such plants, and if they are consistent from year to year, to consider introducing them.
I have often seen interesting variegated forms of A. tricoccum in my woodland wanderings (the Ontario woods are still packed with it, unlike Quebec, where it is now tightly regulated due to overcollecting and Nova Scotia where it is almost non-existant). I have never bothered to bring these forms home, as it seemed odd to do so, from a horticultural perspective, considering the growth habit of the plant and the fact that the foliage being the high point, is largely gone by flowering time in summer.
I recall being in the field with someone I was training in seed collecting, but who was not familiar with the species. They could not for the life of them understand why I would carry seed of this species --- because of course all they saw at collection time was the single stalk sticking out of the earth with the seed receptacles on top. The following spring I took them again into those same woods and their jaw dropped when they saw the drifts of beautiful wide foliage.
Even in its plain green form, the foliage is beautiful...and beautiful to eat.
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Another beauty from ten days ago from the upper Galilee, Allium esclepiadeum.
This species which grows only in one location in Israel is described in Flora Palestina as a form of A. nigrum but it is very different and lately i came to know that it is growing in Lebanon as well.
That's a stunning species, but it does raise some questions. Allium asclepiadeum is described as occuring in Turkey and Lebanon (the type from Maras, Turkey). In the Flora of Turkey, it is reported "Plants from N. Palestine, distinctive on account of their purple filaments and ovary and which were previously recorded as A. asclepiadeum by Feinbrun, proved after further study to be A. nigrum". That publication is dated 1984, so the standing of this and several related species may have changed in the past 26 years.
Just found an interesting publication: "Allium elmaliense (Alliaciae), a new species from SW Anatolia, Turkey" which gives characteristics separating the new species from allied species A. cyrillii, orientale, amd asclepiadeum... all in the "nigrum complex". The flowers are described as fragrant; Oron did you notice any fragrance? How tall does it grow?
http://www.sekj.org/PDF/anbf41/anbf41-147.pdf
Even A. nigrum as it occurs in Israel is very different than the European forms of that widespread species, the much showier Israel plants with striking ruby-color ovaries, whereas they are dark green to blackish-green in the European forms. In discussions I had with Dr. Reinhard Fritsch, he mentioned that the "nigrum complex" is in need of an overhaul taxonomically. Whatever the determination is, your photos show a beautiful species, obviously attractive to pollinators... love the fancy "eyelashes" on the beetle.
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That's a stunning species, but it does raise some questions. Alli um asclepiadeum is described as occuring in Turkey and Lebanon (the type from Maras, Turkey). In the Flora of Turkey, it is reported "Plants from N. Palestine, distinctive on account of their purple filaments and ovary and which were previously recorded as A. asclepiadeum by Feinbrun, proved after further study to be A. nigrum". That publication is dated 1984, so the standing of this and several related species may have changed in the past 26 years.
Just found an interesting publication: "Allium elmaliense (Alliaciae), a new species from SW Anatolia, Turkey" which gives characteristics separating the new species from allied species A. cyrillii, orientale, amd asclepiadeum... all in the "nigrum complex". The flowers are described as fragrant; Oron did you notice any fragrance? How tall does it grow?
http://www.sekj.org/PDF/anbf41/anbf41-147.pdf
Even A. nigrum as it occurs in Israel is very different than the European forms of that widespread species, the much showier Israel plants with striking ruby-color ovaries, whereas they are dark green to blackish-green in the European forms. In discussions I had with Dr. Reinhard Fritsch, he mentioned that the "nigrum complex" is in need of an overhaul taxonomically. Whatever the determination is, your photos show a beautiful species, obviously attractive to pollinators... love the fancy "eyelashes" on the beetle.
Mark
This species is only 10-20cm high while A. nigrum can reach easily 60cm., and its leaves are at least 4 times wider. not sure about fragrance...
By the way many of the bulbous plants that occur here can be often found growing in Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Iran etc.
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Kristl, I need to get out the house more often and traipse around the woods... never saw Allium tricoccum in such carpets.
I have had one bulb over the past dozen years or so, it never does much, does not increase, and rarely flowers (and thus too precious to even think about dining on this sad example). I do like the broad-leaved alliums, and have quite a bit of A. victorialis, including a couple tall forms that Paige Woodward used to sell at her Pacific Rim Nursery, although not currently listed. These look like lily-of-the-valley on steroids, with large globes of creamy-greenish-white flowers ;D One of my largest and oldest clumps grows in a very wet vernal seep. After introducing the additional clones from Pacific Rim Nursery, this species started to seed around.
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Mark
This species is only 10-20cm high while A. nigrum can reach easily 60cm., and its leaves are at least 4 times wider. not sure about fragrance...
By the way many of the bulbous plants that occur here can be often found growing in Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Iran etc.
Oh, so quite short. I guess it is a question of taxonomists duking it out, because most sites are still referring A. asclepideum as a synonym of A. nigrum as it occurs in Israel... Oron, I do believe you when you tell me it is quite different than nigrum... looking at the Allium published in the new online Flora of North America, I cringe at some of the lumping, AND some of the splitting in particular, as the ones I question I have seen extensively in the wild.
So I just googled for a few minutes, and found some links, some showing plants that look like yours, and the USDA site that gives the range as Lebanon; Syria; Turkey. I have in hand, two papers from the Israel Journal of Botany, both from the 1970s, where Fania Kollmann, noted Allium expert, describes A. asclepiadeum from Galilee and Mount Hermon. So, not sure what the current accepted taxonomic status is, but it seems obviously in dispute, whether right or wrong. Regardless, it's a beautiful species, and at only 10-20 cm, obviously NOT A. nigrum no matter who wants to call it so.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Allium_nigrum_2.JPG
http://flora.huji.ac.il/static/1/59/0035591.N6WA03BU9UVV84L.010.jpg
http://flora.huji.ac.il/browse.asp?action=specie&specie=ALLNIG&fileid=27120
http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?2223
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Mark,
the two blue A. caeruleum forms are wounderful. Now I understand why my A. caeruleum never come in the second year.
Seeds available ??
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I do love the wide-leaved shade-tolerant species---my A. victorialis is just now pushing through the soil. This one took forever to mature from seed (5-6 years??? as I recall). I have many forms of it, but do question the standing of the varieties.
Allium tricoccum is one of my favorite culinary species. I can fully understand why so many woods have been stripped of it. Utterly delicious---and of course very ephemeral in how long it is available, making it even more desireable. Although it is called "Wild Leek", to my palette it is a tangy garlic flavour. I have rarely eaten the bulbs (as I am loathe to destroy the colonies), so I can't remember if the taste is similar.
Also takes a very long time to mature from seed.
I am presently clearing a small woodland in the back of my new property in Nova Scotia. Here will get scattered all my remaining A. tricoccum seed collected in Ontario last year, along with all the other native woodland plants that are scarce, rare or nonexistant in Nova Scotia.
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I do love the wide-leaved shade-tolerant species---my A. victorialis is just now pushing through the soil. This one took forever to mature from seed (5-6 years??? as I recall). I have many forms of it, but do question the standing of the varieties.
I side with the opinion and current taxonomic standing that there are no valid varieties of A. victorialis... yes it is variable as one would expect from a circumpolar species, yet it stands quite unique in the Allium world and is always recognizeable as that species... the natural variability easily encompassing the varieties.
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Mark,
the two blue A. caeruleum forms are wounderful. Now I understand why my A. caeruleum never come in the second year.
Seeds available ??
Uli, mine made no seeds in the last couple years that I've had this fine form, although it does make the small basal bulblets which can be used for propagation. Not sure about the St. Petersburg Botanical Garden form, which I do not have.
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Re: Allium victorialis
At the botanical gardens in Tromsø, they have about 20 accessions of Allium victorialis from the Caucasus, Northern Spain, Japan, Kola (North west Russia) and several from the naturalised populations in the Lofoten Islands. I posted some pictures last year in this thread:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3874.0 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3874.0)
They are working on describing this material in an attempt to solve the riddle as to where the Norwegian naturalised populations originate (concentrated on one island in the Lofoten Islands, otherwise spread via fishermen taking part in the Lofoten cod fisheries). One theory is that the vikings introduced and cultivated this onion. In fact the biggest populations are found around the reconstructed Viking longhouse and farm at Borg ( http://www.lofotr.no/Engelsk/en_index.html (http://www.lofotr.no/Engelsk/en_index.html)). They have recently constructed a viking onion garden here. Here's a picture from my visit last summer with Allium victorialis:
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I have had one bulb over the past dozen years or so, it never does much, does not increase, and rarely flowers (and thus too precious to even think about dining on this sad example).
Interesting - I also have one very sad bulb (I bet it's sadder than yours!). I've tried this species many times from seed and, apart from this one, it doesn't like my conditions. I've only once seen it in botanical gardens in Europe - that was at Kew and it looked happy there (picture below), growing together with Allium ursinum. Is it a calcifuge, perhaps? There's currently no nursery in the UK offering this species (RHS Plant Finder), something I find strange...
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I've tried this species many times from seed and, apart from this one, it doesn't like my conditions. I've only once seen it in botanical gardens in Europe - that was at Kew and it looked happy there (picture below), growing together with Allium ursinum. Is it a calcifuge, perhaps? There's currently no nursery in the UK offering this species (RHS Plant Finder), something I find strange...
No, Stephen. It is most certainly not a calcifuge!!! In *very* alkaline Ontario, it covered miles of woodland where it was happy. Here in very acid Nova Scotia it is almost non-existant. Dry, deciduous, alkaline woodlands is the preferred habitat in the wild. I have a standing order for 2km of seed to be custom collected for a large European seedhouse for this season---so hopefully it will make it's way into the nursery trade across the ocean soon. It remains, from year to year, my best selling allium species, which I suppose attests to the many chefs among my clients.
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No, Stephen. It is most certainly not a calcifuge!!! In *very* alkaline Ontario, it covered miles of woodland where it was happy. Here in very acid Nova Scotia it is almost non-existant. Dry, deciduous, alkaline woodlands is the preferred habitat in the wild.
Thanks - that's that theory out of the window....my garden is dry, deciduous, alkaline...
I have a standing order for 2km of seed to be custom collected for a large European seedhouse for this season---so hopefully it will make it's way into the nursery trade across the ocean soon.
2km of seed is an interesting concept - that would be about 500,000 seed (estimated 2mm diameter seed), sounds as though Europe will be awash with Allium tricoccum - hope so! ;)
It remains, from year to year, my best selling allium species, which I suppose attests to the many chefs among my clients.
Another theory would be that everyone is having the same problem as me - seeds germinating, but soon self-destructing and hence back to Kristl for a new attempt, increasing sales...(or, as you say, Chefs harvesting the plants...)
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Here is my favorite among the North American Allium in flower again. It has done well in the past year. It must not need the summer dryness that it gets in central Kansas.
Allium perdulce - very sweetly Dianthus like scent that pours out into the air! I found this population in the wild by its scent one spring in a vernally flooded field. There was a large population growing in heavy black clay soil with ca. 2 cm of water standing on the surface and the wind was blowing my way with the fragrance in the air. I have another collection from the Dakota sands of Kansas that is a far worse grower and is not flowering this year (nor last year).
Aaron
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Puzzle: What is this thing?
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Puzzle: What is this thing?
An onion ring?
johnw
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Puzzle: What is this thing?
An onion ring?
johnw
Exactly! Some Allium species are turf-forming and tend to move out from the center over time. The plant shown here is an A. nutans hybrid. Many of the nutans types do this, leaving voids in the center as the plants age. It is an undesirable trait in a hybridization effort, and I select nutans/senescens hybrids that remain in better clumps. I've kept this one as I find it amusing. It is rather large in diameter now, and I can't fit it into the deep fryer ;D
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Mark,
an interesting feature. I know "fairy rings" only from some kind of mushrooms :D
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Mark,
an interesting feature. I know "fairy rings" only from some kind of mushrooms :D
Here is another "fairy ring"... a "dancing fairy ring" of the oniony kind :D
In the second photo, one hardly realizes the center is open, as the broad spiralling foliage fills in.
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Mark,
the foliage is very attractive of this allium nutans. What height does it grow ?
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Mark,
the foliage is very attractive of this allium nutans. What height does it grow ?
Foliage to about 12" (30 cm) and stems 18-24" (45-60 cm). It's a "beefy" plant.
It is the widest leaf form I have, a good parent for hybridization efforts.
Sorry about the poor quality photo (the digital camera I used back in the early 2000s was not very good), but the scene does capture the winged scapes and nodding buds that twist and coil in amusing ways.
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The foliage is really excellent and the flowers look good too but on the whole I like my onion rings crisply fried. ;D
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The foliage is really excellent and the flowers look good too but on the whole I like my onion rings crisply fried. ;D
............in batter! ;D
Actually, these plants are really neat, and I like the way they form a ring. Are they like the true fairy rings, which get wider in diameter each year so you can more or less tell the age of the clone?
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And could you plant something else in the middle or are they a solid mass of bulby material?
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And could you plant something else in the middle or are they a solid mass of bulby material?
Good question Lesley, the bulbs of Allium nutans are attached to well developed sideways growing rhizome (much like a bearded Iris), with 3-5 bulbs attached to that rhizome. It seems that as the plant grows year to year, the new growth always advances forward and outwards, with the inner part of the rhizome (closest to the center) dying off. So, the ring gets bigger and bigger. The center is devoid of any rhizomes, so I suppose one could grow something at the center; I'm thinking of a nice Dionysia or Eritrichium ;D
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Oh yes, that would be very classy, or maybe something with a different but complementary foliage colour. How about one of the new Heucheras? Or something else which would also grow outwards to make a ring so that yet again, something could be planted in the middle?:D It's all beginning to sound a bit like ring-worm though. ???
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Oh yes, that would be very classy, or maybe something with a different but complementary foliage colour. How about one of the new Heucheras? Or something else which would also grow outwards to make a ring so that yet again, something could be planted in the middle?:D It's all beginning to sound a bit like ring-worm though. ???
... And set to Wagner, naturally ... with libretto by Tolkein ... and scenery sponsored by the Olympics Committee ... in the Saturn Theatre?
... Don't ring us ... we'll ring you! ;)
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Sounds a bit eccentric to me! ::)
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... And set to Wagner, naturally ... with libretto by Tolkein ... and scenery sponsored by the Olympics Committee ... in the Saturn Theatre?
... Don't ring us ... we'll ring you! ;)
In this American Allium garden, and in keeping with my Irish heritage, I do bring my boombox out onto the deck and serenade my Allium beds with piano jazz great Oscar Peterson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdd5pn1xs7M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdd5pn1xs7M), the blue-leaf A. nutans partial to "Boogie Blue Etude", carefully balanced with inspirational piano concertos by Irish composer John Field http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Field_(composer) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Field_(composer)), all performed in the theatre of life ;D. They approve.
But Leslie, you have given me an idea... my Houstonia caerulea are seeding all around, think I'll populate the onion ring centers with those, a bit more tasteful than those garish Dionysia.
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Sounds a bit eccentric to me! ::)
No, I'm thinking CONcentric here. :D
Yes Mark, I'm all for tasteful rather than garish. ;D If you're playing Field to your Alliums, presumably it's at night?
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Yes Mark, I'm all for tasteful rather than garish. ;D If you're playing Field to your Alliums, presumably it's at night?
Due to the serious spring biting-gnat issues here, and all-season-long mosquito problems (big as bats ;D), the music must be played daytime.
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Fascinating, Mark! How old is this ring? Have you worked out the speed of outward expansion? (in m/s, please ;))
Have you seen pictures in nature like this or does competion with other plants destroy or slow down the concentricity - old growth Allium nutans?
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Fascinating, Mark! How old is this ring? Have you worked out the speed of outward expansion? (in m/s, please ;))
I'm working on the speed calculation, still trying to find my old slide-rule and calculus books ;D
Have you seen pictures in nature like this or does competion with other plants destroy or slow down the concentricity - old growth Allium nutans?
I haven't seen photos of whole plants in nature, and when one does find such photos of Allium in the wild, almost always they depict just the flowers. However, I must believe that this is normal behavior for species like nutans, senescens, burjaticum, and some others. Most of my nutans/senescens hybrids show this behavior. It can also be seen with Iris; I'm showing two large clumps of Siberian Iris hybrids that illustrate the same behavior, maybe not as distinctly. The donut-hole effect is apparent when fairly young, with plants just a few years old, but it takes at least 10 years to get large rings like the one shown previously. Also, the open center area can become invaded with seedlings. I include a photo that shows two rings that expanded into each other, with the overlap interference clearly visible. The last Allium photo shows a nutans hybrid that so far, does not show inclinations to grow in a ring, this one with bright shiny green strap foliage and stems to 3-1/2' (105 cm) with white flowers.
Maggi: can you move this "Onion Ring" discussion to the Allium 2010 thread, starting with the initial message with my mystery onion ring, as I think it will be a better place to continue the discussion. Thanks!
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Nice Alliums - a group of many attractive species.
I have to keep an eye open :D
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Yes Mark, I'm all for tasteful rather than garish. ;D If you're playing Field to your Alliums, presumably it's at night?
Due to the serious spring biting-gnat issues here, and all-season-long mosquito problems (big as bats ;D), the music must be played daytime.
No nocturnes then? :D
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Yes Mark, I'm all for tasteful rather than garish. ;D If you're playing Field to your Alliums, presumably it's at night?
Due to the serious spring biting-gnat issues here, and all-season-long mosquito problems (big as bats ;D), the music must be played daytime.
No nocturnes then? :D
Well, actually yes... Piano Concerto No. 3 in E-flat major; second movement is Nocturne in B-flat; Andantino, performed by Sir Charles Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber Orchestra... good taste eh? Listening to it now as I type this and dream about onions ;D
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Here is my favorite among the North American Allium in flower again. It has done well in the past year. It must not need the summer dryness that it gets in central Kansas.
Allium perdulce - very sweetly Dianthus like scent that pours out into the air! I found this population in the wild by its scent one spring in a vernally flooded field. There was a large population growing in heavy black clay soil with ca. 2 cm of water standing on the surface and the wind was blowing my way with the fragrance in the air. I have another collection from the Dakota sands of Kansas that is a far worse grower and is not flowering this year (nor last year).
Aaron
Aaron, so glad to see this one again... wish it were not so difficult and recalcitrant in the garden. Unfortunately, the one you had given me only persisted into a second season, without flowering, and then no more :'( The perfume is indeed amazing. There are several other southwestern American species with similarly richly perfumed flowers, I believe A. ecristatum is one of them... I need to start scanning Thad Howard's notes. At least I have some photographic memories of this fine little midwestern American prairie onion, which I share with SRGC readers. When I had the luxury of time (pre-children days ;D), I liked to dig up plants, wash off all soil, and draw the plants in their entirety, roots and all, so I include a drawing of A. perdulce as well.
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Always the first Allium to bloom in the garden here, is A. paradoxum var. normale. The foliage got whacked by frost one night when it suddenly dipped to 18 F (-9 C), but some foliage and all buds survived. The photo shows the bulbs being encroached by a vigorous Allium nutans hybrids with bold finger-like foliage, which I need to move before it wipes of paradoxum var. normale. Closely following on it's heals, the next to bloom is Allium zebdanense.
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Following up on "onion rings", I was doing some yard cleanup, and went to dump a wheelbarrow full of leaf and plant debris, and there I find an upsidedown clump of an inferior A. nutans hybrid I dug out last year and discarded. Well, bless its little heart, after a whole winter with its roots in the air, all of the shoots sprouted and were attempting to right themselves towards the sun! I seized the opportunity to show what the backside of an onion ring looks like, with the knobby, connected Iris-like rhizomes, the growing points only on the perimeter.
One has to admire the tenacity of such species as A. nutans and senescens. After this photo, I tossed it back into the refuse bin. :o
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Well, actually yes... Piano Concerto No. 3 in E-flat major; second movement is Nocturne in B-flat; Andantino, performed by Sir Charles Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber Orchestra... good taste eh? Listening to it now as I type this and dream about onions ;D
Nice to be an onion at your place. Here they're more likely to end up in the frypan or a good stew. ;D
Re the onion ring, why not twine some extra stuff through the mass to make a great door wreath?
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And talking of tenacity, I thought I'd lost all my chives patch but found some a few days ago in a place where I'd sprayed with Roundup at least 4 times in the last couple of years. But they look as healthy as can be and I've already used some in an egg sandwich.
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Allium zebdanense is on deck, truly a good species for a woodland garden (although it will grow and flower in sun too).
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A first of many Iranian alliums in flower now: Allium noeanum is a rather small plant with flowers approx. 2 cm in diameter.
As with many Iranian species naming is not easy, so not 100% certain about its ID.
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Luc,
but a nice one. In every way. Flowers and foliage. I love this allium with large foliage and "little" flowers. Does it smell?
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Luc,
but a nice one. In every way. Flowers and foliage. I love this allium with large foliage and "little" flowers. Does it smell?
Sorry for the late reply. No smell noticed.
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Two more Iranian species from the "allium akaka" group :
Allium haemanthoides
Allium elburzense
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Two forms I have of A haemanthoides, one from Janis and one I grew from seed. also A minutiflorum from Janis, also A zebdanense, allium akaka and elburzense are not yet out for me
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also A Karataviense henrikii
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I must increase my allium collection after seeing these photos
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Two forms I have of A haemanthoides, one from Janis and one I grew from seed. also A minutiflorum from Janis, also A zebdanense, allium akaka and elburzense are not yet out for me
I have a few collections of A. haemanthoides, minutiflorum, akaka, bodeanum, etc. growing up from seeds. It is always a long wait till the first flower.
Nice plants by the way, though photos not always sharp.
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Allium jesdianum ssp. angustitepalum
Arnold
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Allium jesdianum ssp. angustitepalum
Arnold
lovely :D
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Two forms I have of A haemanthoides, one from Janis and one I grew from seed. also A minutiflorum from Janis, also A zebdanense, allium akaka and elburzense are not yet out for me
I have a few collections of A. haemanthoides, minutiflorum, akaka, bodeanum, etc. growing up from seeds. It is always a long wait till the first flower.
Nice plants by the way, though photos not always sharp.
Thanks Luc, your plants look great!
It was a long wait. This allium haemanthoides is twice the size of Janis's plant though I have been told it is within the range of natural variation, I like these alliums very much. if you have spares feel free to let me know!
Sorry about the quality of the pictures, It is because I have only the digital camera on my 'phone as yet, which does not work well in poor light. I am at work during most of the sunshine hours
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An allium from Turkey raised from Archibald seed. Allium colchicifolium, related to A. orientale and A. kharputense, has 2 broad basal leaves with hemisphaerical umbels of yellowish-white flowers on 15-20cm stems.
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And two Iranian species also raised from seed:
Allium caspium from the same section Kaloprason as A. schubertii and A. protensum but dwarfer
Allium shelkovnikovii from section Acanthoprason with even a white seedling !
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Wonderful 'onions' Luc II !!
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A first of many Iranian alliums in flower now: Allium noeanum is a rather small plant with flowers approx. 2 cm in diameter.
As with many Iranian species naming is not easy, so not 100% certain about its ID.
Seem to be true
Janis
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A first of many Iranian alliums in flower now: Allium noeanum is a rather small plant with flowers approx. 2 cm in diameter.
As with many Iranian species naming is not easy, so not 100% certain about its ID.
Luc, good looking Allium! Sorry about the late return to this thread, been very busy with "Epimedium season" and an endless string of warm, breezy, beautiful spring days that capture my attention outdoors all day long. But Allium season is gearing up here too, so will shift focus :D
In addition to the whole-plant view, the detail views really help. Comparing the details to the description in Flora of Turkey (exact same description as in Flora Iranica), your plant seems to fit A. noeanum in most aspects. The only aspect that seems in question; you mention the "flowers approx. 2 cm in diameter", are you saying the inflorescence is 2 cm in diameter, or the individual florets are that size? If the inflorescence, that seems rather small. The species has tepals ~ 1 cm long, and unequal pedicels to 3.5-7 cm in length, which even at the smaller end of that range, such pedicel lengths would create a much larger head of bloom. Did the pedicels expand much in later anthesis? The floras report the flowers are sweetly scented (rare for Floras to take note of such things), and you mention there is no scent.
With A. noeanum found in Turkey, Syria, Iran, and Iraq, it is likely the species is variable. I can ask Dr. Fritsch for his opinion, hopefully he'll forgive my few weeks of email deliquency. :-[
Luc, I think you're correct about the image of this species in Van Flora web site, the photo psoted of A. noeanum is clearly the wrong species, the species description is identical to those in the aforementioned Floras, but they goofed up on the image.
http://vanherbaryum.yyu.edu.tr/flora/famgenustur/li/al/no/index.htm
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Two more Iranian species from the "allium akaka" group :
Allium haemanthoides
Allium elburzense
Both are beauties Luc, although I find your A. elburzense particularly striking, the first photo really captures the beauty of the species. In both A. haemanthoides and A. elburzense, they seem to match the species description in Flora Iranica, but as always, there are a couple of small exceptions where details don't quite match, so once again, I would like to pass these along to Dr. Fritsch for his opinion. In A. haemanthoides, the anthers are described as violet, whereas they are white in your plant (comparing with Peter's photos, it is hard to tell because of the focus problem, but in the second photo they look whitish). In A. elburzense, the flower color is described as purplish but lacking a description of the midvein color, and in your plant flowers are white with striking, dark midveins giving a striped look to the flowers. But these are small differences, they could easily be within the range of variability for each species.
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Two forms I have of A haemanthoides, one from Janis and one I grew from seed. also A minutiflorum from Janis, also A zebdanense, allium akaka and elburzense are not yet out for me
Peter, I see that you are an "allium guy" too :D
Regarding A. minutiflorum, I believe this is one that Dr. Fritsch mentioned is incorrecly identified. Janis: did Dr. Fritsch suggest what species your A. "minutiflorum" might really be?
Peter, does your A. zebdanense make much seed. Mine seems 99% sterile, barely making any seed, but occasionally a small amount of seed does appear and I might get a few self-sown seedlings. This is my experience with growing it for over 30 years.
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Allium jesdianum ssp. angustitepalum
Arnold
Arnold, one of the best, and shorter than some of the big and tall "globe types"... I like the slender purple tepals accented with white stamens. I had three different forms of A. jesdianum, including ssp. angustitepalum, but they have been slowly disappearing and in decline, sometimes showing leaves but no flowers. Probably time to replenish my stock.
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An allium from Turkey raised from Archibald seed. Allium colchicifolium, related to A. orientale and A. kharputense, has 2 broad basal leaves with hemisphaerical umbels of yellowish-white flowers on 15-20cm stems.
I think this is my favorite of all those you've posted recently, the black ovaries are striking against the white and green flowers. The species description is even more problematic, so loosely defined that it surely doesn't record the range of variability. In fact, the species description in both Flora of Turkey and Flora Iranica fail to mention the dark ovary color, which it shares in common with the two allied species you mention (orientale and kharputense), and others such as A. asclepiadeum. In the recent publication of new species in Iran by Dr. Fritsch, he discusses the "A. colchicifolium alliance", and goes on to describe three new species emerging from the ill-defined "colchicifolium", namely A. bisotunense, A. keusgenii, and A. moderense. Your plant isn't any of those, so is better aligned with A. colchicifolium.
http://www.sid.ir/en/VEWSSID/J_pdf/80220080201.pdf
After all that, your A. colchicifolium remains a beauty ;D, there's no denying that!
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And two Iranian species also raised from seed:
Allium caspium from the same section Kaloprason as A. schubertii and A. protensum but dwarfer
Allium shelkovnikovii from section Acanthoprason with even a white seedling !
Luc, you grow so many great alliums of the Acanthoprasum section, real beauties they are... most of mine are just seedlings. It seems however, on the first species that it is probably not A. caspium, as the head is too compact and dense, although it is possible for young plants to show a more compact head as compared to more mature plants. Flower color is described as dingy greenish-violet or rarely whitish; your plant has bright pink flowers. I scanned a black and white image from Flora Iranica showing a herbarium specimen of Allium caspium, and it shares with allied species A. protensum and A. bucharicum those extra long pedicels (up to 15 cm) to make a huge effuse inflorescence up to 30 cm across. Not sure which species your plant is, but here again, I shall ask Dr. Fritsch for an opinion.
Your A. shelkovnikovii looks correct... nice that you got a white one too. ;D
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After A. paradoxum var. normale, the first of the Alliums to bloom here each year, the second is Allium zebdanense. The first photo shows it growing in full sun at early anthesis. In sun it will flower earlier and go over more quickly, often with the foliage turning yellow after a couple days in early retreat to dormancy, whereas those grown in shade or part shade will flower later, last longer, and maintain the attractive narrow arching green foliage much longer. Nearly sterile in the form I grow, it'll occassionally makes a bit of seed and a few welcome seedlings show up.
Photos 2-3 were taken in my friend's garden, where a marvelous moss and lichen covered outcrop serves as backdrop to a fine stand of thus showy allium growing in a mostly shaded location.
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First of the Acanthoprasum allium are beginning here, and judging from my 10 year photo records, I'm in need of doing some propagation and replanting to reinvigorate declining plants. Large clumps of A. karataviense 'Ivory Queen' have all but disappeared, although they are cheap enough to buy a fresh supply in the fall.
1-2 Allium karataviense 'Red Globe' - the cultivar name given before var. henrikii was published, but evidently they are the same. These two photos show this really attractive form in the garden now, the leaf and flower size smaller than in previous years.
3 Allium karataviense 'Red Globe' in 2008
4 Allium karataviense 'Red Globe' in 2000, with foliage of other karataviense color forms in background.
5 Allium species aff. ellisii, at early anthesis.
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Two forms I have of A haemanthoides, one from Janis and one I grew from seed. also A minutiflorum from Janis, also A zebdanense, allium akaka and elburzense are not yet out for me
Peter, I see that you are an "allium guy" too :D
Regarding A. minutiflorum, I believe this is one that Dr. Fritsch mentioned is incorrecly identified. Janis: did Dr. Fritsch suggest what species your A. "minutiflorum" might really be?
Peter, does your A. zebdanense make much seed. Mine seems 99% sterile, barely making any seed, but occasionally a small amount of seed does appear and I might get a few self-sown seedlings. This is my experience with growing it for over 30 years.
I think Seed from last year has germinated - i will check for you but will be away untill wednesday
Peter
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First of the Acanthoprasum allium are beginning here, and judging from my 10 year photo records, I'm in need of doing some propagation and replanting to reinvigorate declining plants. Large clumps of A. karataviense 'Ivory Queen' have all but disappeared, although they are cheap enough to buy a fresh supply in the fall.
1-2 Allium karataviense 'Red Globe' - the cultivar name given before var. henrikii was published, but evidently they are the same. These two photos show this really attractive form in the garden now, the leaf and flower size smaller than in previous years.
3 Allium karataviense 'Red Globe' in 2008
4 Allium karataviense 'Red Globe' in 2000, with foliage of other karataviense color forms in background.
5 Allium species aff. ellisii, at early anthesis.
I like your ellisii :) and I had guessed that henrikii was the same as Red Globe and a fine plant it is too
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A first of many Iranian alliums in flower now: Allium noeanum is a rather small plant with flowers approx. 2 cm in diameter.
As with many Iranian species naming is not easy, so not 100% certain about its ID.
In addition to the whole-plant view, the detail views really help. Comparing the details to the description in Flora of Turkey (exact same description as in Flora Iranica), your plant seems to fit A. noeanum in most aspects. The only aspect that seems in question; you mention the "flowers approx. 2 cm in diameter", are you saying the inflorescence is 2 cm in diameter, or the individual florets are that size? If the inflorescence, that seems rather small. The species has tepals ~ 1 cm long, and unequal pedicels to 3.5-7 cm in length, which even at the smaller end of that range, such pedicel lengths would create a much larger head of bloom. Did the pedicels expand much in later anthesis? The floras report the flowers are sweetly scented (rare for Floras to take note of such things), and you mention there is no scent.
With A. noeanum found in Turkey, Syria, Iran, and Iraq, it is likely the species is variable. I can ask Dr. Fritsch for his opinion, hopefully he'll forgive my few weeks of email deliquency. :-[
Luc, I think you're correct about the image of this species in Van Flora web site, the photo psoted of A. noeanum is clearly the wrong species, the species description is identical to those in the aforementioned Floras, but they goofed up on the image.
http://vanherbaryum.yyu.edu.tr/flora/famgenustur/li/al/no/index.htm
Mark,
The inflorescence measured about 2cm in diameter at the time I took the picture. After that it has elongated to approx. 4cm in diameter.
The time I checked the scent, the flower was almost 2 weeks old, so it is possible that the scent had fainted.
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First of the Acanthoprasum allium are beginning here, and judging from my 10 year photo records, I'm in need of doing some propagation and replanting to reinvigorate declining plants. Large clumps of A. karataviense 'Ivory Queen' have all but disappeared, although they are cheap enough to buy a fresh supply in the fall.
1-2 Allium karataviense 'Red Globe' - the cultivar name given before var. henrikii was published, but evidently they are the same. These two photos show this really attractive form in the garden now, the leaf and flower size smaller than in previous years.
3 Allium karataviense 'Red Globe' in 2008
4 Allium karataviense 'Red Globe' in 2000, with foliage of other karataviense color forms in background.
5 Allium species aff. ellisii, at early anthesis.
Mark,
All beauties that I like.
Your A. aff. ellisii is very close to what I have as A. ellisii. I have posted a picture of my plant some two years ago I think.
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OK, I need some opinions. The first fotos are of an Allium that I received some years ago as A. rosenbachianum. I have since been informed that this would be incorrect. I don't know, but.... The emerging leaves are always carmin tipped, which the seedlings are not.
In any case, I have quite a few seedlings in the area which are of similar colour, but are most likely hybrids with A. hollandicumPurple Sensation (or similar, as I am unsure if mine are PS! They were from the garden centre and the flower is much lighter than the seedlings). What do you all think?
Attached are fotos for your perusal. Some are less well focused, due to the high winds this morning...or my unsteady hand.
aff. rosenbachianum- emerging leaves
aff. rosenbachianum-bud
aff. rosenbachianum-flower
hybrid-1 bud opening
hybrid-3 bud opening
hybrid-4 flowers
h<brid-2 bud
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OK, I need some opinions. The first fotos are of an Allium that I received some years ago as A. rosenbachianum. I have since been informed that this would be incorrect. I don't know, but.... The emerging leaves are always carmin tipped, which the seedlings are not.
In any case, I have quite a few seedlings in the area which are of similar colour, but are most likely hybrids with A. hollandicumPurple Sensation (or similar, as I am unsure if mine are PS! They were from the garden centre and the flower is much lighter than the seedlings). What do you all think?
Jamie, I think you are probably correct on both. Back in 2000 and 2002, I grew true A. rosenbachianum from two sources, one from Arnis Seisums, collected in Tajikistan, W part of Darvas range, nr. village Lol, and the other from Antoine Hoog (both came as bulbs). I have uploaded some images showing leaf growth and buds, sadly I can't seem to find any photos of the inflorescence... my photgrpahy back then was hit or miss; I used to borrow a digital camera from my office when it was available, and it wasn't always available.
1. A. rosenbachianum - Antoine Hoog source, young foliage freshly emerging.
2. A. rosenbachianum - Antoine Hoog source, older foliage shows leaves uiniquely tapering to a narrowed red-flushed petiole, the leaves with a distinctive paddle shape to them. The base of the flower stem is also red-flushed.
3. A. rosenbachianum - Antoine Hoog source, the bud spathe is fastigiate or narrowly elongate in shape.
4. A. rosenbachianum - Arnis Seisums source, with other Allium from Arnis (red arrow pointing to rosenbachianum). Notice the same narrowed leaf bases.
So Jamie, your rosenbachianum looks correct to me, although it would be good to see the leaves if you have a photo of them. And I would agree with the probability that the others are A. hollandicum or hybrids with it, the short and fat "onion shaped" bud spathe is the giveaway on that count.
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Fresh photo of Allium sp. aff. ellisii taken this morning, with the flowers more fully expanded.
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Mark,
thanks for the info, but my leaves are not as wide as your A. rosenbachianum. Attaches are shots of a typical aff. rosenbachianum, plus leaves of three of the hybrids, which show a range of leaf forms. Does this help in diagnosing the species? Maybe it is, as well, a hybrid, although all of the seedling I have direct from it remain pretty true, which makes me thing true species.
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One which was flowering here today for the first time:
Allium platycaule
and Allium akaka which keeps on flowering
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two Allium in flower this week
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One which was flowering here today for the first time:
Allium platycaule
and Allium akaka which keeps on flowering
Nice coulor on your akaka Wim, I'm sure mine is paler :-\
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One which was flowering here today for the first time:
Allium platycaule
and Allium akaka which keeps on flowering
Nice coulor on your akaka Wim, I'm sure mine is paler :-\
It's a form bought from Janis if I remember correctly and it's a real dark one indeed.
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Here is what I have as akaka, it gets bigger every year. Allium elburzense taken in the dusk, also some more mature pictures of my Allium haemanthoides, looking fluffy now.
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Two forms I have of A haemanthoides, one from Janis and one I grew from seed. also A minutiflorum from Janis, also A zebdanense, allium akaka and elburzense are not yet out for me
Peter, I see that you are an "allium guy" too :D
Regarding A. minutiflorum, I believe this is one that Dr. Fritsch mentioned is incorrecly identified. Janis: did Dr. Fritsch suggest what species your A. "minutiflorum" might really be?
Peter, does your A. zebdanense make much seed. Mine seems 99% sterile, barely making any seed, but occasionally a small amount of seed does appear and I might get a few self-sown seedlings. This is my experience with growing it for over 30 years.
Allium zebdanense sets seed with me and I sowed some late this spring some germinated though only one has got its root down, more will probably germinate next spring.
Is there an answer to the naming of Janis's A minutiflorum?
I liked the pictures of Allium colchicifolium Luc, and your jesdianum angustipetalum Arnold, here is Allium jesdianum Per Wenelboi and Shing from Janis
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All these Onion Lovers... what is it with men and alliums?
Must be the BBQ factor...... ::) :-\
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All these Onion Lovers... what is it with men and alliums?
Must be the BBQ factor...... ::) :-\
Maggi,
As if you don't like Alliums... or BBQ's for the same matter... ;) ;)
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It may be something to do with the fact that Alliums are "character" plants. While many are very strong and handsome, few are "pretty" and so maybe they appeal to men more than to women. (We, of course, prefer our men to be strong and handsome, and not pretty.) Besides, no man can resist a good beef stew with lots of sliced and whole onions in it. But nor can I. :)
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Alessandro - what is the source on your A. chloranthum? It is a stronger green-yellow color than mine... mine is also with a greenish or chartreuse tinge, but not as dark green as yours.
Wim - nice color form on A. akaka.
Peter - Your A. haemanthoides do indeed look "fluffy", surely one of the better Acanthoprasum types, I like the broad heads peppered with yellow anthers. On your A. elburzense, not sure what to think, looks very different than the one LucS showed us just a couple pages back.
By the way, ignore the ladies and their BBQ-Allium theories, makes no sense at all. ;D ???
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Kurt Vickery recently returned from a trip to Kazakhstan, and shared a few photos of Allium karataviense growing en masse. This particular form looks uniform, large heads of pale color, basically dull white but with greenish or brownish tan nerves, giving an off-white tan coloration to the flowers that effectively blend in camouflage style with the rocks and landscape.
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Kurt Vickery recently returned from a trip to Kazakhstan, and shared a few photos of Allium karataviense growing en masse.
Good grief! they most certainly are growing en masse- what a magnificent sight!
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I sure hope our seed blockers here don't see these photos.
How absolutely marvellous - looks like a river bed.
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It IS a river bed isn't it? and you're right Pat, the flowerheads are just about stone-coloured and are beautifully disguised. probably more visible in the flesh, as it were.
Fortunately All karataviense is safely on our Bio Index. :D
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It IS a river bed isn't it? and you're right Pat, the flowerheads are just about stone-coloured and are beautifully disguised. probably more visible in the flesh, as it were.
Fortunately All karataviense is safely on our Bio Index. :D
A nasty rumour I've heard is that Australian Biosecurity is unlikely to let any new alliums onto the "allowed list" because of the proclivity to weediness of a "few"! >:( It won't stop us submitting Weed Risk Assesssments but they are quite likely to be refused. :'(
cheers
fermi
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One of the earlier Alliums blooming today, in a threesome view... Allium decipiens, with Linum perenne in the background, and to the left, the scarlet buds of Penstemon eatonii ready to open. I may have overdone it with Linum perenne; at one time I had a hard time getting it established, then it started seeding about freely and I would relocate seedlings here and there, really liking the vertical ephemeral fountains of blue saucers every morning, a beautiful foil to pink, rose, and purple blooms on early Allium species like chives (A. schoenoprasum) and nodding onion (A. cernuum), but now rethinking the situation as Linum perenne is seedling around with overly wild abandon... too much of a good thing.
Allium decipiens is one of the smaller species in Allium section Melannocrommyum; yes it can get to 30" tall (75 cm) but is usually a little bit lower, and the hemispherical heads are smallish and refined, looking very different than other members of this section. It is native to Turkey, Central Asia, Russia, and Siberia, and possibly in China too, although not included in the online Flora of China. The species is distinctive on account of the 1-2 cm wide long lorate (opposite sides parallel) basal leaves that sit flat against the ground. This one seeds around, popping up here and there, but it's such a charmer, I do not worry about its mild spreading. Shortly after the spring flowering, it dries up and goes dormant.
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The Linum is easy enough to weed out where you want to, though, is it not, McMark? I think the combination of Allium/Linum is glorious!
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I agree with Maggi - great combination Mark.
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Pretty linums, Here's Allium lyconatum from Janis, some seedlings of Aliium nevskianum, Allium tripedale-it sets seed but I've not had any germination yet, its bulking up after not apearing one year though, and also Nothoscordum bivalve
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Pretty linums, Here's Allium lyconatum from Janis, some seedlings of Aliium nevskianum, Allium tripedale-it sets seed but I've not had any germination yet, its bulking up after not apearing one year though, and also Nothoscordum bivalve
Peter, I think your Ruksans Allium might have gotten mixed up, your photo #1, while blurry, is still unmistakably Allium oreophilum; Janis sells several selected forms of this, mine are in bud ready to pop open any day. The true Allium lycaonicum (note spelling) from Turkey, is in section Malanocrommyum, and is allied to A. cyrilli and A. decipiens (see above), but with deep red flowers. Found an interesting paper on a new form of A. decipiens, in which A. lycaonicum is mentioned taxonomically, see:
"A new species of Allium decipiens (sect. Melanocrommyum, Alliaceae) from the Crimean and NW Caucasus Mt.s by Alexey P. Seregin."
http://www.bio.bas.bg/~phytolbalcan/PDF/13_2/13_2_08_Seregin.pdf (bottom left of page 199 for mention of A. lycaonicum).
Keep an eye on your Nothoscordum bivalve, it is typically considered an invasive species.
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Thanks Mark That explains why I thought I had lost oreophilum.
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Hi,
Can any of you allium experts put a name to these two? the first has been in my garden for years without a label, the second is in a public park in Bromley, Kent.
Thanks, James
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Hi,
Can any of you allium experts put a name to these two? the first has been in my garden for years without a label, the second is in a public park in Bromley, Kent.
Thanks, James
James, the first one looks like chives; Allium schoenoprasum. There are a few alliums that can have flowers with the superficial general aspect of chive blossoms (such as A. heldreichii) but if the foliage is terete and fistular (round and hollow in cross-section), then it is most likely A. schoenoprasum. In the second photo, I can't tell what is grass and what is allium foliage, so going on the bulbilliferous head alone, I'd say it was a form of Allium canadense. This Allium is native but considered a weedy invasive found in the greater eastern half of the USA and Canada.
Distribution map. Note, the thumbnail image that comes up with the first link is atypical, normally the flowers are white to slightly tinged pink, and with a few to many largish bulbils that can be various colors; green, whitish, or most often shaded reddish. The second link has some photos that show the plant better.
http://www.plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=ALCA3
http://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=ALCAC
Jump to a message below: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4757.msg153788#msg153788 where the ID on the second photo was corrected to Allium roseum var. bulbiferum.
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Mark;
Since my own plant is a few weeks away from flowering and I'm bound to forget taking a picture anyway, I was wondering if you could take a look at this picture by Magnar Aspaker (http://magnar.aspaker.no/Allium%20sp%20ex%20Caucasus.jpg) and give your opinion on what it might be? It's from Caucasus, and produce bulbils. Leaves are linear and solid with longitudinal ridges, identical on both sides.
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Mark;
Since my own plant is a few weeks away from flowering and I'm bound to forget taking a picture anyway, I was wondering if you could take a look at this picture by Magnar Aspaker (http://magnar.aspaker.no/Allium%20sp%20ex%20Caucasus.jpg) and give your opinion on what it might be? It's from Caucasus, and produce bulbils. Leaves are linear and solid with longtitudal ridges, identical on both sides.
I remember that photo, I believe Magnar sent it to me a year or two ago to ask for help in identifying it. I'll try to find what I reported back to him, but a cursory search did not come up with anything. I do remember this one being quite the puzzler, and I don't think I was able to put a solid identification on it.
The fact that the plant has bulbils can be a bit misleading, as a number of species not normally described as having bulbils, can indeed make bulbils (as a minor manifestation) in the flower heads, sometimes a particular clone showing a propensity to have tiny poorly developed bulbils. I have a form of blue A. beesianum that produces tiny bulbils, these not even noticeable until after the flowers fade and as the seed capsules develop, little green sprouts can appear out of the drying inflorescence, these can be picked off and planted. I have also found bulbils here and there, on such non-bulbiliferous species as A. cernuum, stellatum, flavum, caesium, senescens, angulosum, nutans, hollandicum, etc.
Back to the plant in question, one difficulty is that a number of new species have been described in the Caucasus since the initial floras came out. While the leaves are described in general terms, it is hard to gauge their size and physical dimension from the photo, nor do I know anything about the bulb characteristics.
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Mark,
I have never had Nothoscordum bivalve become weedy, but I see it is not permitted in NARGS and is considered an invasive by so many. I would bet that if someone were to do a lot of chromosome sampling they would find the southern forms are tetraploid and propagate heavily by vegetative means and those on the northern edge of its range are diploid and produce largely by seed. I grow this plant for its intensely sweet scent on close examination. When I see it in the south (ca. 200km further than Knoxville) it is a common roadside weed present by the thousands.
I would not say that is A. canadense. The tepals are far too rounded for it. The A. canadense alliance is another that I find is underrated. I have numerous collections of the better forms; lavendulare, mobilense, and fraseri. All are floriferous, non-bulbiliferous, and just plain good garden plants. The phenology of this group keeps me flowering from early April until the second week of June (texanum is the last to flower). Pictures to come.
Bjornar,
The Allium on Magnar's site has always intrigued me. It is something similar to what I received as A. globosum, but is better called A. saxatile. I have three other globosum/saxatile collections that will bloom this summer. If Mark won't put a name on it I won't attempt to. He has helped me identify a few odds and ends from CY.
Aaron
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The second photo is probably Allium roseum in its bulbiliferous form (var. bulbiferum), sorry for my hasty assessment:
http://www.maltawildplants.com/LILI/Allium_roseum.html
http://www.aphotoflora.com/DevonandCornwall/Allium%20roseum-bulbils-29-05-06.jpg
http://www.aphotoflora.com/DevonandCornwall/Allium%20roseum29-05-06.jpg
I shouldn't be trying to multi-task, dashing in from being out in the garden and then hastily aswering SRGC messages ::) Aaron, so far as A. canadense, yes we both know there is a whole book in the story of the "canadense alliance", which reminds me, I must start scanning Thad Howards letters to PDF.
I too have grown Nothosciordum bivalve in pots, for the delicious scent. Years ago Thad Howard sent me pink-flowered plants he found in Texas, but they never prospered with me and eventually died out.
I don't think Magnar's Allium is of the globosum/saxatile clan, stamens would need to be far exserted (which they're not), and after growing numerous forms of saxatile, globosum and marschallianum (the last two generally considered conspecific with saxatile, merely color forms), they have a rather different look and aspect to the flowers than Magnar's plant. I need to research it more.
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Here are some A. canadense var. lavendulare collections from differing localities in the midwestern US. The "White Flag" is a selection of the typically bulbiliferous eastern US form I believe. In that picture one can see A. c. lavendulare to right for a comparison in plant size. Allium texanum will begin in a week or so and is larger than "White Flag." Allium mobilense just started and is usually always pale pink and more dainty.
Mark, someday I'd like to do the DNA on the collections I have and reinstate var. lavendulare and var. fraseri. A. fraseri has a scent similar to, but much fainter than A. perdulce. It also prefers perfectly draining sand in situ and the leaves are glossy green, not glaucous or grey-green. AND, it flowers three weeks earlier.
The seed crop on A. perdulce was heavy this year!
Wow, a pink Nothoscordum....
There was a paper where the saxatile group was split again! I have not been able to get a copy yet.
Aaron
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My first experience of Allium falcifolium bought at Wisley last year. It successfully survived winter and is about to open the buds. Will appreciate any advice on summer requirements. Thanks
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I believe this is Allium brachyscapum. Any confirmation?
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Many thanks "TheOnionMan", both your suggestions seem to fit my plants,
James
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Mark,
Monday at the Weekly Flower Show Lisse I saw an entry of Allium for name identification.
It was send in as Allium praecox Brandegei from N. Am.
Can you tell me some more about this Allium?
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1. One of my favourites is Allium shelkovnikivii
2. Allium falcifolium developed
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I believe this is Allium brachyscapum. Any confirmation?
Oleg, it is difficult to tell. Have you compared to the photo in Janis Ruksans' book Burred Treasure? In that photo, it is an overhead view, so hard to compare to your photo. Based on the description in Flora of the USSR, it seems that your plant is not Allium brachyscapum. The scape should be, per the name, exceedingly short, although I suppose under cultivation the scape might elongate some. There are definite leaf characteristics to consider, so it would be good to see the leaves on your plant. The umbel is supposed to be hemispherical and very dense, it looks spherical and not very dense in your plant. The filiaments look too short, should be slightly exceeding to twice as long as the tepals. So, I'm not sure what you have there, it is a pretty allium, but my guess is that it is not A. brachyscapum.
Very nice Allium shelkovnikovii and falcifolium. :D
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Mark,
Monday at the Weekly Flower Show Lisse I saw an entry of Allium for name identification.
It was send in as Allium praecox Brandegei from N. Am.
Can you tell me some more about this Allium?
Luit, the plant shown does not exactly match Allium praecox. That species is from southernmost California and Baja California (Mexico). It can be white flowered but is typically pink, with deep pink central nerves, and a white-pink-tinged to all pink ovary (not green). Allium praecox has long been considered a variety of A. hyalinum (as A. hyalinum var. praecox) although Flora of North America considers the species separate now. Here's a link to the USDA info and distribution map for A. praecox:
http://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch?mode=symbol&keywordquery=ALPR2
At the bottom of the USDA pages on any species, there is a CalPhotos link to images for that species. Or, on any American species, google the latin name appended with CalPhotos to get the same link to useful photos. Bear in mind, like all web resources, sometimes there can be incorrectly identified photos, but generally speaking CalPhotos is fairly reliable.
CalPhotos page with images of Allium praecox:
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?query_src=photos_index&where-taxon=Allium+praecox
I've grown Allium hyalinum, a beautiful species from central California and coastal mountain ranges, with white, often pink-tinged flowers that are shiny at the base of the petals. It is not reliably hardy here in New England. I have not grown A. praecox, all that I tried ended up being A. hyalinum, the "glassy onion".
The hard part about trying to identify North American Allium, is that about 1/2 of the listed 112 species occur in California... I have familiarity with only a handful of them. They are often separated by finite details of bulb coat reticulations and other growth and floral minutiae, so it can be a challenge identifying them, particularly when the provenance of any plant requiring identification is not specified or known.
I do not know exactly what the species is that you posted, but my opinion is that it is NOT A. preacox based on the botanical descriptions and web images that I've found. :'(
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Mark, thank you for explanations. Now I definitely see the allium is not brachyscapum. It is strikingly different from the picture in Janis Ruksans' book. Still it is a nice plant and the one I didn't have anyway.
Do you happen to have some experience in growing Allium falcifolium (at least that is true to the species)? Shall I keep it on the dry side in summer?
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Do you happen to have some experience in growing Allium falcifolium (at least that is true to the species)? Shall I keep it on the dry side in summer?
Allium falcifolium is not difficult to grow outdoors if one can find the right balance of spring moisture, excellent drainage, and dryness while dormant. It grew in my garden for years on a mildly sloped bed... with a base of clay soil, with a 6" (15 cm) layer of sharp sandy soil above, bulbs planted in the sandy soil, but the roots able to reach the moistuire-retentive clay layer below. This seemed a good formula for western dryland Allium and Brodiaea and Triteleia. Eventually however, I have lost many of the Alliums, I believe lost during exceptionally wet early springs... I should have had even better drainage... although the Trits still continue to do well.
Two MMcD photos: the first showing of a group of Allium platycaule in bud (love them falcate leaves), with flattened strongly "winged" stems, and two buds of Allium falcifolium just behind platycaule. The second photo shows them at full flower, two few-flowered heads of A. falcifolium on the left, and many heads of the densely flowered A. platycaule on the right. Allium falcifolium is not without its charm, but obviously A. platycaule is the one to grow :o :o The plants in these photos lasted about 7 years, eventually swamped and eliminated by an aggressive Globularia.
The last photo shows a superb clump of a lighter pink flowered form of Allium platycaule growing in Panayoti Kelaidis' garden... he was envious of the deep color form on my former plants, but I'm equally envious of his skill bulking up the species into such a super fine clump. :D The focus in Europe seems to be on all of the many Acanthoprasum section of Allium, with species such as beautiful A. shelkovnikovii commonly grown by bulb growers in their alpine houses, wheras these species are unheard of here in the USA. However, there are western American species that can rival the central asian species in beauty for the rock garden.
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Allium crenulatum is in flower. The first photo shows a typical form, very pale flowered (and with few-flowered heads), but at late anthesis the drying tepals do age to a darker reddish-pink color. It is barely visible in the garden. The second photo is a selected form from the Olympic Mountains of Washington State, named A. crenulatum 'Olympic Sunset'. This year the bulbs show that they've multiplied, so after flowering I should divide and replant. The lighter green starfish rosette of narrow leaves in the top center of the photo, I have no idea what it is... hasn't flowered yet.
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hi, here an allium from today, in my garden...what´s the name ?
(http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt188/yuccajoe/Bild003-65.jpg?t=1275493845)
cheers
chris
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hi, here an allium from today, in my garden...what´s the name ?
cheers
chris
Chris, it looks like Allium moly. The only look-alike species is A. scorzonerifolium, normally a bulbilliferous species with bulbils in the inflorescence, which is just finishing bloom here, but there is a form A. scorzonerifolium var. xericiense that has more flowers and no bulbils, looking moly-esque. I think yours in A. moly based on what I can see of the foliage, mine are in bloom now too.
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I love the clump of A crenulatum :)
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mark, thanks...
chris
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Mark,
Monday at the Weekly Flower Show Lisse I saw an entry of Allium for name identification.
It was send in as Allium praecox Brandegei from N. Am.
Can you tell me some more about this Allium?
Luit, the plant shown does not exactly match Allium praecox. That species is from southernmost California and Baja California (Mexico). It can be white flowered but is typically pink, with deep pink central nerves, and a white-pink-tinged to all pink ovary (not green). Allium praecox has long been considered a variety of A. hyalinum (as A. hyalinum var. praecox) although Flora of North America considers the species separate now. Here's a link to the USDA info and distribution map for A. praecox:
http://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch?mode=symbol&keywordquery=ALPR2
At the bottom of the USDA pages on any species, there is a CalPhotos link to images for that species. Or, on any American species, google the latin name appended with CalPhotos to get the same link to useful photos. Bear in mind, like all web resources, sometimes there can be incorrectly identified photos, but generally speaking CalPhotos is fairly reliable.
CalPhotos page with images of Allium praecox:
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?query_src=photos_index&where-taxon=Allium+praecox
I've grown Allium hyalinum, a beautiful species from central California and coastal mountain ranges, with white, often pink-tinged flowers that are shiny at the base of the petals. It is not reliably hardy here in New England. I have not grown A. praecox, all that I tried ended up being A. hyalinum, the "glassy onion".
The hard part about trying to identify North American Allium, is that about 1/2 of the listed 112 species occur in California... I have familiarity with only a handful of them. They are often separated by finite details of bulb coat reticulations and other growth and floral minutiae, so it can be a challenge identifying them, particularly when the provenance of any plant requiring identification is not specified or known.
I do not know exactly what the species is that you posted, but my opinion is that it is NOT A. preacox based on the botanical descriptions and web images that I've found. :'(
Thanks very much for this information Mark! Though I still believe it might well be a form of A. praexox, found by Wayne Roderick??
I’ll send you a PM.
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A few onions in my greenhouse
general view
A karataviense Ivory Queen grown from seed
A alexejanum - the leaves split as they emerged, I think it was a bit too dry at an early stage
A pallasii
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Mark, thanks for the detailed advice
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I read of this link on the pbs listing , thought it would be of interest here.....
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/09/dining/09curious.html?hpw
....a book on all sorts of oniony things... scientific and culinary....
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I read of this link on the pbs listing , thought it would be of interest here.....
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/09/dining/09curious.html?hpw
....a book on all sorts of oniony things... scientific and culinary....
This is the book I posted about previously here, with a plea from the author (Dr. Eric Block) for information or possible sources for "strong smelling" allium species for his further work on chemical analysis. This is the same book that I'm supposed to be doing a review of, then posting said review here and at the Pacific Bulb Society; I fear that I have fallen behind. :-[
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could do with a book that sorts the genus out, I have one that is patchy in what it covers by Dillis Davis and B mathews book on allium section allium. Been a few more flowering here, These are under cover, though i suspect I get them too dry they are all increasing, any cultivation tips apreciated though. Allium baisunense, Allium cleavlandii from America, allium crenulatum, and allium peninsulare
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Allium litwinowii growing outside in a pot (I find it rots if it gets a wet automne), allium nevskianum growing outside and looking pretty awfull but it survived the wettest summer on record here and the coldest winter for 40 years, without cover and is increasing, more than Allium "Red Globe" mannaged in the same bed! A new aqusition Allium victoralis which I am told is the origional anti vampire garlic from eastern europe and will probably be best in a wild garden, and Allium fimbratum purdyi, kept in the green house
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could do with a book that sorts the genus out, I have one that is patchy in what it covers by Dillis Davis and B mathews book on allium section allium. Been a few more flowering here, These are under cover, though i suspect I get them too dry they are all increasing, any cultivation tips apreciated though. Allium baisunense, Allium cleavlandii from America, allium crenulatum, and allium peninsulare
Peter, your A. baissunense (note spelling) is awesome, looks like a silver fireworks. Allium litvinovii is certainly one of the finest deep blue alliums, although still hard to come by, although available from Janis Ruksans. I grew it outdoors for a couple years, flowered beautifully the first year after planting, but it perished the following winter, not sure what the problem was... perhaps in a site not as free draining as necessary.
There is no such thing as Allium "cleavlandii", nor A. clevelandii, but there is a yellow-flowered member of the Alliaceae named Bloomeria clevelandii (synonym = Muilla clevelandii, an older name under which it can still be sometimes referenced). Bloomeria clevelandii is San Diego golden star, only found in southern most California, a pretty yellow-flowered bulb. Your plant looks like a deeper color form of A. peninsulare.
Bloomeria clevelandii (syn. Muilla clevelandii), in Flora of North America (San Diego goldenstar):
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=242101430
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomeria_clevelandii
Some sites still use the old genus name of Muilla (an anagram of Allium), Muilla clevelandii:
http://www.calflora.org/cgi-bin/species_query.cgi?where-taxon=Muilla+clevelandii
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Thanks Mark, I like them all and grow as many as I can, with limited knowledge and facilities.
I put the pictures here to get this kind of information.
The plant I recieved as A clevlandii came from some very well informed people so I think there must be more to it, an unpublished name or synonym? I bought it in 2006 as "A clevelandii Heads of striking deep purple-tipped, acutely pointed flowers in May" I shall refer back to them.
It is hard to track down the different Bloomeria, Tritelias and such, though I have a few now. I may try north west native seeds,..
A litwinowii came from Janis six or seven years ago as a large bulb which divided and has never again had a bulb nearly so big, It likes being outside and dosn't grow so well dry under cover but if it is dank in autumme it dissapears, the seed has been in no hurry to germinate, I can send you some if you would like?
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I have just looked at A 'clevelandii' and A peninsulare, also A bisceptrum from Janis, The flowers on the clevelandii are the same shape as bisceptrum as are the anthers, clevelandii is the larger of the two. peninsulare is not the same shape :-\
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Thanks Mark, I like them all and grow as many as I can, with limited knowledge and facilities.
I put the pictures here to get this kind of information.
The plant I recieved as A clevlandii came from some very well informed people so I think there must be more to it, an unpublished name or synonym? I bought it in 2006 as "A clevelandii Heads of striking deep purple-tipped, acutely pointed flowers in May" I shall refer back to them.
It is hard to track down the different Bloomeria, Tritelias and such, though I have a few now. I may try north west native seeds,..
Regarding "A. clevelandii" as a possible unpublished name or synonym, there is no Allium epithet nor synonym of "clevelandii", but in early taxonomic days, other alliaceous plants, including the recently established Themidaceae (Brodiaea, Triteleia, etc) were sometimes included under Allium. The genera Muilla and Bloomeria have been described for well over 100 years, but even in my 4-volume "Illustrated Flora of the Pacific States" by Leroy Abrams, 1923, Bloomeria clevelandii has always been just B. clevelandii, although an allied species (also yellow) B. crocea, does have a synonym of Allium crocea Torr. 1859. Most of the very old taxonomy and synonomy from mid 1800s is rarely repeated anymore as it is too early and obsolete, otherwise nearly every plant listed would have a long litany of synonyms.
Two places to check (even older synonyms will show up here), is:
http://www.ipni.org/ipni/plantnamesearchpage.do
There is no epithet "clevelandii" associated with the genus Allium there.
The other resource is "Nomenclator Alliorum - Allium names and synonyms - a world guide" compiled in 1998 by 5 of the world's authorities on the genus; Mary Gregory, Reinhard Fritsch, Nikolai Friesen, Furkat Khassanov, and Dale McNeal. Of course new species have been published since 1998 (mostly Europe and Asia), but the list is extensive, and there is no "clevelandii" associated with Allium.
So, unfortunately I fear that "some very well informed people" are a trifle off on their details. Regarding what your plant might actually be, it can be tough to narrow a determination... for each species in western N. America, there are several species that look fairly similar, with final determinations sometimes only possible by examining bulb coat reticulations, and other minute details. Knowing the plant's provenence is also very helpful. Allium bisceptrum typically has a stiff open starry shape to the tepals, looking similar to the closely related A. campanulatum. Your plant does not look like A. bisceptrum to me, but there are other species with recurved tips to the tepals.
Lastly, the first thing I do with researching American Allium species, is google the latin name with the word USDA appended, as the USDA plant profile pages are an excellent starting point for recent/current taxonomy. There are links at the bottom of each USDA profile page, the best being CalPhotos to show images of the plants. *Warning* - occasionally one or two misidentified images creeps into the collection of CalPhotos; usually this is obvious... for example, one CalPhoto of Allium bisceptrum shows a plant with very dimorphic recurved tepals which is clearly not A. bisceptrum, all the other photos (including white-flowered ones) do show A. bisceptrum.
Peter, I will send a PM regarding Allium litvinovii :D
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Some of mine flowering today.
Allium atropurpureum
Allium cyathophorum farreri
Allium unknown. Probably nothing special but a name would be appreciated if anyone has any ideas.
Graham
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Some of mine flowering today.
Allium atropurpureum
Allium cyathophorum farreri
Allium unknown. Probably nothing special but a name would be appreciated if anyone has any ideas.
Graham
Graham, you saved me the trouble of posting a pic of A. atropurpureum, one of the more aptly named species, truly dramatic flower color. Mine always sprouts out with robust clusters of leaves, but then most plants go dormant without flowering, and I only get one (this year) or two (last year) flowering stems. How about with your plants?
Everyone on the forum should take a look at A. cyathophorum var. farreri, then remember its appearance, then see if any of your other alliums under different names look just like it. This species, perhaps more than any other, is sent out under dozens of names; the ubiquetous imposter. It's a decent enough species, but you will be disappointed when your Allium narcissiflorum turns out to be this species.
Your last one looks like Allium unifolium to me, a species from California and Oregon, almost as widely grown as the Mediterranean A. roseum.
My Allium garden has been exploding with bloom with all of our sun, heat, and early season... I'll be working through the backlog to show some more onions.
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Hi Mark,
The A. atropurpureum is a new one to me and all 20 or so have flowered. I will have to wait until next year to see how well they do.
I am waiting for A. narcissiflorum to flower so hope it doesn't turn out to be another A. cyathophorum var. farreri.
I had worked out that the final one was probably A. unifolium but thought I would get confirmation.
Many thanks
Graham
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It seems ages ago that Mark posted a picture of his zebdanense in full flower. Just to show how far we are behind I thought I'd take a new picture one of my plants, which has just come into flower, and has somehow naturalised in a wild part of the garden (no idea how it got there). It just manages to poke its head above the ground elder (Aegopodium) leaves.... We're about 3 weeks behind normal flowering dates here, it's poured with rain for 24 hours now, 20+-year floods in the main rivers and currently a only 5C in the middle of the day and we're almost at mid-summer.... The second picture taken today shows the fjord with a front demarking the muddy fresh river water from the tidal salt water.
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It seems ages ago that Mark posted a picture of his zebdanense in full flower. Just to show how far we are behind I thought I'd take a new picture one of my plants, which has just come into flower, and has somehow naturalised in a wild part of the garden (no idea how it got there). It just manages to poke its head above the ground elder (Aegopodium) leaves.... We're about 3 weeks behind normal flowering dates here, it's poured with rain for 24 hours now, 20+-year floods in the main rivers and currently a only 5C in the middle of the day and we're almost at mid-summer.... The second picture taken today shows the fjord with a front demarking the muddy fresh river water from the tidal salt water.
Stephen, we're about 3 weeks ahead this year... so I guess our climates cancel each other out, and we reach the Average ;D Seriously though, I treat certain plants as "garden clocks" or "nature clocks", their flowering always marking a certain time of year. Example, when I see any of the large "hardy hibiscus" a la H. moscheutos types open its first flowers, I can be certain that it is around August 1st here. I used to say the same about Stewartia pseudocamellia, when the flowers opened, it was July 1st. Then, the last few years the flowers started opening the 3rd week of June, then the 2nd week of June last year. This year the flowers started on June 5th.
The photo of the fjord looks most scenic and inviting.
Glad the season is finally catching up with you. Ours is so advanced, that I'm terribly backlogged on documenting Alliums... must get caught up. But it's hard to, when each day is warm (hot) and sunny yet again; today it is about 92 F, 33 C, drawing me out to the garden.
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Just a quickie today, this sunny hot days beckons me to be outdoors, and when I go outside from my basement door, the first thing I see is the extra fine form of Allium caeruleum "DBG Form" (Denver Botanic garden) that I received bubs of a few years back. The flowers are sweet scented, and I caught a photo with a wasp (around these parts called "yellow jackets") feeding on the nectar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_jacket).
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Funny how you can judge a plant without all the information. I would not have thought you could have sweet smelling alliums. Is there many that are sweetly scented. I am probably showing my ignorance by asking this. Ah well we all have to learn from the masters.
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The little pink-flowered species collected in 1966 by Albury, Cheese and Watson in Turkey (should know its name by now) has flowers scented of lily-of-the-valley but the foliage if bruised has the usual oniony scent.
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A close up of Allium greyeri
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Do all the alliums have that onion smell to their leaves?
As I can't grow the real Lily of the Valley that forgotten species Lesley would be a good substitute.
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Pat, to my poor knowledge they do but for many only if the leaves are crashed
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The little pink-flowered species collected in 1966 by Albury, Cheese and Watson in Turkey (should know its name by now) has flowers scented of lily-of-the-valley but the foliage if bruised has the usual oniony scent.
The ACW Allium goes around erroneously as A. olympicum, but the correct identification is Allium kurtzianum. Here are two recent photos, this year all of the foliage dried up before flowering as it's been very hot and dry here, and for the most part, I do not water the "allium garden". In the second view taken 4 days after the first photo, you can see how the fertilized flowers become erect and turn a deeper pink. Only about 2" tall (5 cm) in flower.
While I'm here, I added a photo of Allium flavum var. tauricum x A. kurtzianum, in flower now with bronzy-pink flowers, one of my favs. Also, a dwarf pink Allium flavum var. tauricum, a likely parent type plant of this cross.
Regarding scent, most alliums have sweet-scented flowers, many sweet yet slightly oniony too (I like it :D ;D), and others that are just very sweet without a noticeable onion scent. The ones that are ill-scented are actually fairly rare. There is even a secion of the genus, Section Odoratae, so named for the very sweet scented flowers. It is typically the foliage and bulbs that exude an onion scent when bruised. Of course there are exceptions, there are some allium, in certain sections of the genus, with barely any alliaceous scent in the foliage at all.
It's so hot today, I think some of my onions will start self-sauteing in the garden :o
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Thanks for the name Mark. I had it from the collection as species, then it was listed in the AGS as olympicum and then I found out that wasn't right either, but didn't know what was. I'll do a label right away. I find it hybridizes with flavum v. minor readily but all the seedlings have been lemon rather than pink or apricot. Flavum too, is nicely scented in the flower. I think my kurtzianum is a little deeper pink than yours, more rosy. Here, the leaves are always gone by the time the flowers are out. I grow it in a trough.
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Is there an Allium book?
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Is there an Allium book?
There is a book, best considered as an Allium primer; "Alliums" by Dilys Davies, published in 1992 by B.T. Batsford Ltd. It is a reasonably good introduction to the genus, but there is so much more.
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What follows is an indulgent photo essay on Nodding Onion, or Allium cernuum. There are so many faces to this incredibly variable species, few realize what the species is about, from modest (insignificant) pale flowered things you'd hardly give a second glance at, to much more compelling beauties, and everything in between. From bold clumping plants, to lone individualists, the range of possibilities is fantastic, their architectural form, particularly in bud, is memorable. My garden is now mostly represented by the better forms, mixing and commingling in the interesting ways.
Part 1
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Allium cernuum - indulgent photo essay Part 2
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Allium cernuum - indulgent photo essay Part 3
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Please keep up the indulgence, Mark - one of my favourites! I have a dwarf selection which will flower for the first time that really does seem to be small compared to my others. Do you have any information on the typical size of the wild species (height and flower size), or does it vary “wildly”? (OK, stupid question: a wild plant would vary wildly I suppose…). My oldest cernuum I got as Pink Giant. I posted some pictures on my Edible Alpines thread some time ago. You may not have seen them as the pictures had become dead links as I had put them on Photobucket (Maggi: I now know the foolishness of my ways and am now fully reformed). I’ve now reposted those pictures and will do the same with the other pictures in that thread (in time). See
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3085.msg76185#msg76185 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3085.msg76185#msg76185)
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(Maggi: I now know the foolishness of my ways and am now fully reformed). I’ve now reposted those pictures and will do the same with the other pictures in that thread (in time).
Hallelujah! the sinner repents.... and so is forgiven [attach=1]
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Please keep up the indulgence, Mark - one of my favourites! I have a dwarf selection which will flower for the first time that really does seem to be small compared to my others. Do you have any information on the typical size of the wild species (height and flower size), or does it vary “wildly”? (OK, stupid question: a wild plant would vary wildly I suppose…). My oldest cernuum I got as Pink Giant. I posted some pictures on my Edible Alpines thread some time ago. You may not have seen them as the pictures had become dead links as I had put them on Photobucket (Maggi: I now know the foolishness of my ways and am now fully reformed). I’ve now reposted those pictures and will do the same with the other pictures in that thread (in time). See
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3085.msg76185#msg76185 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3085.msg76185#msg76185)
Thanks Stephen, I had not seen your earlier exposé on A. cernuum, good series and good pics! Average size of Allium cernuum in the wild, hmmm... I've observed it in the wild in many US States, and would say on average it is a smallish slender plant 12-16" (30-40 cm), but it can increase in size under better garden conditions. The smallest from I had was from Dick Weaver of We-Du gardens, collected on Rich Mountain, North Carolina, that was no more than 5" (12.5 cm) tall in flower, a tiny plant with few-flowered heads of deep rose-purple. It was a slow recalcitrant grower, and seemed to be nearly sterile as it rarely made seed, but I have since lost this choice dwarf form and thus it is probably lost from cultivation. Please keep us posted on your dwarf form, I'm anxious to see it!
I haven't paid too much attention to cultivar names, other than trying them from seed, as once they're seed grown the cultivar naming is negating, but one can get some distinctive forms if option for such seed. Even the two varieties named by Marion Ownbey, father of American Allium taxonomy, var. obtusum and var. neomexicanum, were later rescinded by the author himself (Ownbey), although most of the botanical world seems to have "never gotten the memo", including the USDA, because one still sees these names out there. The varieties are quite meaningless if one observes plants from many locations. I have collected many forms over the years, received many other forms from people, and opted for wild-collected seed... it is such fun to see the variability. Then in the garden, the cernuums really start mixing things up with each other, and I get all kinds of wonderful plants.
And, then there are the interspecific hybrids, A. cernuum crossing with A. stellatum, and with unrelated species like the Asian A. nutans, senescens, and European angulosum, rubens, and others... all a whimsical potpourri, but we'll get there later.
I have another batch of photos coming tonight, to illustrate the different shape and arrangement of the inflorescences.
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Yes Mark, keep on posting :). A. cernuum is one of my favourite alliums.
I grow Allium ursinum in my garden and this year I found a plant with variegated leaves among them.
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Yes Mark, keep on posting :). A. cernuum is one of my favourite alliums.
I grow Allium ursinum in my garden and this year I found a plant with variegated leaves among them.
Oh my Gunilla, that's a very special well-marked variegation isn't it! :o I've never seen such a good variegated form... be sure to take special care of it (keep those slugs away ;D), and maybe one day get it into horticultural commerce.
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Magnificent, Gunilla! I would certainly pay a good price for one of them! Never seen anything like it...
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Today I will be showing variant flower forms of Allium cernuum. There are many subtleties here, but once attuned to them it becomes all the more enjoyable to spot differences, and even select seedling plants for your most favored attributes.
Among the features separating Allium cernuum (nodding onion) from it's close ally A. stellatum (Prairie onion, Autumn onion) is the fact the inflorescence of A. stellatum is nodding only when immature but straightens up at full flowering, and the tepal arrangement in A. stellatum is spreading and starry, the three outer tepals spreading wide, yet the three inner tepals distinctly erect, often recurved and connivent (inrolled), the difference between the inner and outer tepals strongly pronounced. This can be seen clearly in these close-up photos: http://www.missouriplants.com/Pinkalt/Allium_stellatum_page.html
In Allium cernuum, the inflorescence is permanently nodding, and the 6 tepals are all more or less similar and forming a campanulate bell shape. Oh... if it were that easy, even Marion Ownbey, father of American Allium taxonomy, reported that the nodding inflorescence habit is not foolproof, sometimes A. cernuum has stems that become erect or semi-erect, and there are plants that are hard to place.
1-3 Allium cernuum - dimorphic inner/outer tepals (I call these "propeller" types). The other thing to notice on nodding onion blooms, is the color and thickness of the pedicels, from thick to thin, in colors from gray, green, reddish, gray, to dark charcoal. This one has neat gray-green pedicels.
4 same flower head, side view, just barely nodding, fertilized flowers lifted upright.
5 A. cernuum with 2-tier inflorescence, fertilized flowers lift up yet maintain strongly nodding habit, creates the effect of having a second tier of blooms above the lower tier.
6 showy robust forms with striking architectural candelabra-like arrangement, heads to 4" (10 cm) across, deep rose-purple waxy bells, thick charcoal gray pedicels, flower heads twice the size of most others; with much smaller flower heads of adjacent nodding onion forms seen on the left.
7 closeup of a single deep rose-purple architectural type.
8 very pale pink form, relatively few-flowered, inner tepals fold in giving a semi-stellate look to the openly campanulate florets, fertilized flowers swoop upwards losing any nodding habit, pedicels gray tinged pinkish.
9 nice medium pink, medium-sized heads, gracefully curved pedicels are mid gray and thick, nodding form maintained as a single form without the sometimes two-tier effect seen earlier.
10 handsome light pink form, initial bud arrangement is wide and shallow (see flower head at center), dimophic tepals for a starry-bell shape, fertilized flowers lifting up yet retaining nodding habit, pedicels reddish.
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Hi,
Allium narcissiflorum flowering today.
Mark I hope this is in fact A. narcissiflorum.
Graham
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Hi,
Allium narcissiflorum flowering today.
Mark I hope this is in fact A. narcissiflorum.
Graham
Graham, looks correct to me. :D
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I grow Allium ursinum in my garden and this year I found a plant with variegated leaves among them.
Gunilla - You will be able to retire at a tender age with that one. :o
johnw
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Gunilla - You will be able to retire at a tender age with that one. :o
johnw
OK, I will not use those leaves in my salad then ;D and I have told the slugs to stay away (many times).
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Here's an interesting Allium, one that I received from the AGS seed exchange in 1993 (as bulbils) of "Allium sp. Haute Provins, France". It ends up being Allium sphaerocephalon var. bulbilliferum. This form of A. sphaerocephalon is rather different than typical A. sphaerocephalon, being a miniature plant, only about 1/3rd the size of regular A. sphaerocephalon, making a tidy colony of very slender stems 16"-22" (40-55 cm) tall and small heads of dark red-violet flowers. Even though some of the flower heads are mostly bulbils (rare), the majority of flower heads are floriferous or with just a few little bulbils. After 17 years, and allowing the bulbils to drop, this species has never spread... the colony has slowly expanded to about 18" x 18" (45 x 45 cm) in all those years. I do like this slim and trim little plant.
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A comparative view of some Allium cernuum forms. A few things to notice here. There is a metal rule on the right hand side, subtract 4" (10 cm) for the bulb portion to get an idea of plant height. Most forms of Allium cernuum have bright red bulb coats, although they can also be pink or light pink, rarely paler. Not all A. cernuum forms are created equal, they vary quite a bit. The tall white one (slightly tinged pink) without a bulb, was too tall for the photo (36", 1 meter) so I removed the bulb.
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I like spaerocephalum growing wild, I plant it in cottage garden borders along with Gladiolus ssp byzantinus where they give some height to the geraniums after the aquliegias
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A comparative view of some Allium cernuum forms. A few things to notice here. There is a metal rule on the right hand side, subtract 4" (10 cm) for the bulb portion to get an idea of plant height. Most forms of Allium cernuum have bright red bulb coats, although they can also be pink or light pink, rarely paler. Not all A. cernuum forms are created equal, they vary quite a bit. The tall white one (slightly tinged pink) without a bulb, was too tall for the photo (36", 1 meter) so I removed the bulb.
A very useful comparison photo, McMark, thank you. 8)
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Today I will be showing variant flower forms of Allium cernuum. There are many subtleties here, but once attuned to them it becomes all the more enjoyable to spot differences, and even select seedling plants for your most favored attributes.
Finally got round to reading your "everything you ever wanted to know but were afraid to ask" piece on the nodding onion. Fascinating! Will be digging this out again when mine our in flower... This reminded me that I found what I concluded was a form of Allium cernuum in a Norwegian nursery last summer (being sold as Allium insubricum roseum!). The flowers were dimorphic as you describe and particularly attractive I thought and I wondered if they were something else - must check if it's still alive and I'll post a picture when in flower. My cernuums are now in bud - actually, despite the cold summer they seem to be flowering at the normal time. We finally had 20C yesterday, but it was short-lived as big thunderstorm passed through followed by cooler air...
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This year the Chinese Allium prattii jumped from 2 flowering stems to 6 stems. This is one I got from Chen Yi (only bought from her once, 7 years ago, everything 100% misidentified), came as A. aciphyllum, but yielded two different Allium species, prattii and ovalifolium. Both species have been very slow growing, and A. prattii has yet to set any seed. About 8" (20 cm) in flower.
Photos of prattii in bud a week ago, and in full flower this morning.
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Congratulations, Mark. Very nice.
These are Allium atroviolaceum and Allium ramosum
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Congratulations, Mark. Very nice.
These are Allium atroviolaceum and Allium ramosum
Oleg, glad you showed A. ramosum, a well-behaved early summer blooming white. For some strange reason it gets confused with the late summer blooming Allium tuberosum, which to me, looks very different. I can't see much of the veining on the flowers of your plant, do they have good red mid-veins on the outside of the tepals, they look greenish to me from what I can see of them. I will post a photo of my plant showing the red mid-veins for comparison.
Regarding A. atroviolaceum, I'm not sure about the identity of your plant. The flower heads look oblong instead of more densely spherical, and the stamens not exserted enough, to match photos I've seen of A. atroviolaceum (such as the photo in "A Review of Allium secion Allium" by Brian Mathew. It looks somewhat like Allium rotundum ssp. jajlae to me. Many of the "drumstick" alliums are very closely related and it is not easy to tell them apart. All of these skinny "drumstick" alliums are very effective in mixed plantings in the garden, temporary vertical accents that take little room, I like them! What is the source of your plant?
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A miscellany of Alliums in June, trying to catch up :D
1-3 Allium amplectans - found throughout the coastal western US States and up into Canada, a most variable species. Some forms I cannot grow, others are easy and amenable to cultivation. The light pink form that I am showing is very easy, and seeds about a trifle too much getting in the middle of lots of other plants, but the foliage of "narrow-leaf onion" has little impact, and the whole affair quickly dries up and goes dormant after flowering, that I welcome the cheerful hemispheres of palest pink flowers, a species like A. hyalinum that can have reflective shiny bases to the tepals. About 10" (25 cm) in bloom.
4 Allium geyeri - not overly showy, but pleasant light pink-flowered species with urceolate upright flowers that can be striped deeper pink. It can be grown in moist and shady locations, although will grow dry and sunny as well.
5-6 Allium ramosum - photos showing the red-nerved tepals, prounounced on the outside of the flowers. Handsome well-behaved to about 1.5-2' tall (45-60 cm) but can be taller to 3' (90 cm), flowering early summer. For me, it seeds around only modestly, always a welcome plant.
7 Allium kochii (= A. vineale). I retain the original name, as it is indeed A. vineale, but in a well-behaved small and interesting form that is not invasive. Got this in 1991, sent to me from Arnfried Abraham, collected on the Isle of Usedom, Baltic Coast, germany, in sandy areas. The flower heads are tiny, really TINY, held on 14-18" (35-45 cm) thread thin stems, with minuscule bulbils in the inflorescence. The bulbils are allowed to drop, and in my dry allium garden I have never seen a stray invader, the colony is less that 12" (30 cm) across in all those years.
8 Allium cernuum - large head with spaced florets. A form with flower heads up to 4" (10 cm) across, a rather largely diffuse inflorescence form.
9 Allium cernuum - large head forms (the previous form on the right).
10 Allium cernuum - sideways inflorescence. Generally, when I see sideways sprays of flowers of the cernuum kind, it is Allium stellatum, although this is clearly an A. cernuum form, with heads that turn to a 90 degree sideways angle, versus the typical 180 degree full nod. I find a number of such forms, as well as those where heads turn "somewhat downwards", perhaps a 135 degree angle than the full 180. Rule breakers they are!
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Oleg, glad you showed A. ramosum, a well-behaved early summer blooming white. For some strange reason it gets confused with the late summer blooming Allium tuberosum, which to me, looks very different. I can't see much of the veining on the flowers of your plant, do they have good red mid-veins on the outside of the tepals, they look greenish to me from what I can see of them. I will post a photo of my plant showing the red mid-veins for comparison.
Concerning ramosum/tuberosum these have always confused me, but perhaps because it is not only an early flowerer? I suspect that Allium tuberosum is actually often ramosum in areas with harder climates as the latter is very hardy. I've tried many tuberosums from different sources and most don't make it through the winter and those that do seem to be ramosum. Anyway, here's a series of what I think are all ramosum, but flowering at different times:
1) A plant I received as ramosum, an early flowerer (4th June)
2-3) A plant I received as A. ledebourianum, obviously isn't (8th in bud and 22nd August in flower in my garden)
4) A plant seen in Uppsala Botanical Garden (Sweden) marked as Allium kurrat but not (9th September)
5) One of my "tuberosums" (a late flowerer on 24th September - this one isn't hardy, but isn't it ramosum?)
I'd be interested what you have to say about this set, Mark...
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Mark, fantastic allium amplectans you have! American alliums are always something special.
My Allium ramosum does have a bit of green but still the general impression is that of the red veining. Sorry for the quality of the picture. We have been having a spell of exaptionally hot weather with the brightest sunshine for more than a fourtnight which makes it difficult for me to focus the camera.
As for Allium atroviolaceum, I'm almost sure that it is the authentic plant. Unfortunately the picture doesn't show the scale, but it's at least 3 times as big as Allium rotundum ssp. jailae both in height and the size of the flower head. You can find my source at www.mnogoletnik.narod.ru It is in Russian, but you'll see a list of blue options to the left of the picture. Click the 5th one which says Луки Кавказа (Alliums of the Caucasus) and you'll find it there (latin names luckily). The seller is always correct in what he sends. It's just the very beginning of its flowering time, so this must produce a different impression.
Stephen, your first 3 pictures are really those of Allium ramosum. The others show Allium tuberosum.
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May be this picture will seem a bit better (Allium atroviolaceum)
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Mark, fantastic allium amplectans you have! American alliums are always something special.
Stephen, your first 3 pictures are really those of Allium ramosum. The others show Allium tuberosum.
Oleg, I agree with your assessment of Stephen's photos, 1-3 = A. ramosum, the others show A. tuberosum. Stephen: I have studied this quite a bit, I'll try to put something together that better illustrates the differences.
Oleg, on the A. atroviolaceum, I'm still having a problem with that identification. First of all, these Allium section Allium are a very difficult group to work with to key out, so they are easily misidentified even by fairly knowledgeable horticulturalists and nursery people. The things that don't seem right for me:
1. your plant has an oblong shape to the inflorescence... the pedicels are of unequal length, the outer ones shorter than the inner ones which are much longer and grow the head taller, thus giving the oblong shape. This characteristic of unequal pedicel length is typical for A. rotundum (and subspecies) and other species, but not for atroviolaceum. A. atroviolaceum should have a more evenly spherical shape. I scanned a photo from Brian Mathew's "A Review of Allium section Allium" for comparison.
2. Regarding plant size, flower size, and inflorescence size, these vary widely, A. rotundum and subspecies have flower heads 1-4 cm (sometimes 5 cm) in diameter, atroviolaceum flower heads 2.5-3 cm (sometimes to 6 cm) diameter.
3. A. atroviolaceum has stamens and anthers clearly exserted (can't see these on your plant, just the cusped tips of the stamens barely equalling to slightly exceeded the tepals (more similar to A. rotundum and ssp).
4. Stamen color, it is a hallmark of A. rotundum and ssp, and other Alliums in section Allium, to have the stamen cusps equally the tepals or just barely exserted, looking prominent because they are white or very pale, giving each floret a white "highlight" when the flower opens. In atroviolaceum, the stamens are darker and do not have this "white eye" sort of effect, and the stems and anthers are well exserted.
5. Check around the base of the stems, you can even push away a bit of dirt to reveal the shallow bulbs, what color are the bulblets? They are dark brown to blackish purple in rotundum, yellowish brown in A. atroviolaceum.
To help compare the two, I put your photo side by side with the photo of Allium atroviolaceum from the mnogoletnik.narod.ru website; I think the differences become more evident when photos can be compared in this way.
By the way, the photo of Allium fuscoviolaceum shows an outstanding allium species, would like to try that one!
http://mnogoletnik.narod.ru/Allium/pages/Allium_fuscoviolaceum.html
Also for comparison, here are the two Allium rotundum and Allium rotundeum ssp. waldsteinii photo links on the mnogoletnik.narod.ru web site, they illustrate quite well the trademark or characteristic "white eyelashed" center to the open florets, which one sees with species like A. rotundum and ssp, and other species like erubescens. The photo of Allium rotundum on that site, looks somewhat uncharacteristic, being lighter color and more open than normal.
Allium rotundum on the mnogoletnik.narod.ru site (does not look like typical A. rotundum)
http://mnogoletnik.narod.ru/Allium/pages/Allium_rotundum.html
Allium rotundum ssp. waldsteinii on the mnogoletnik.narod.ru site
http://mnogoletnik.narod.ru/Allium/pages/Allium_waldsteinii.html
And lastly I upload a photo of my A. rotundum from a number of years back, sadly I have lost all my plants over the years, I had several forms, but still have A. rotundum ssp. jajlae. Let us know what color the bulbils are? Also, I'm not sure how close a photo your camera can get for closeup shots, but a closer look at the stamens/anthers and style would be useful.
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Many thanks for your help with my tuberosum/ramosum pictures Oleg and Mark. Mark: yes, I would very much appreciate if you could explain your conclusion. The last 3 all have similar coloured reddish mid-veins. I am also suprised to see tuberosum in Uppsala as I didn't think it was hardy enough for that area of Sweden. It is also a much bigger plant than other tuberosums I've seen. However, I know that there are a lot of cultivars, so I guess it is form-rich. For example, here's a picture of it used as a low hedge around the herb garden at RHS Rosemoor in the UK (the picture was taken late September):
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Allium rotundum seed I received from Sergey Banketov in the Caucasus in 2006 and I have one plant which is just about to flower for the first time. It looks very like Allium scorodoprasum so far. In my recent Norwegian flora, it is a ssp of scorodoprasum (found very occasionally as an introduced plant). We are talking about the same plant aren't we?
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Nice to see all these summer alliums!
The only one in flower here at present is Allium chamaemoly!
[attachthumb=1]
cheers
fermi
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Allium rotundum seed I received from Sergey Banketov in the Caucasus in 2006 and I have one plant which is just about to flower for the first time. It looks very like Allium scorodoprasum so far. In my recent Norwegian flora, it is a ssp of scorodoprasum (found very occasionally as an introduced plant). We are talking about the same plant aren't we?
Yes, we're talking about the same plant. The authority on Allium section Allium (the "drumstick" alliums) is without a doubt Brian Mathew, so I put a lot of weight on his exemplary monograph "A Review of Allium section Allium" published in 1996, that removed the combination A. scorodoprasum ssp. rotundum and raised it to species status as A. rotundum, with the subspecies jajlae and waldsteinii following suit. Most taxonomic accounts have followed this.
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Nice to see all these summer alliums!
The only one in flower here at present is Allium chamaemoly!
cheers
fermi
This one is not hardy for me here, it blooms so late (December in the Northern Hemisphere) that it doesn't really have the ability to open its flowers. I had received bulbs and only grew it one season, I kept a makeshift cloche over the plant to keep it from freezing too hard, and actually got to see the blooms, but it's not for this climate.
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Many thanks for your help with my tuberosum/ramosum pictures Oleg and Mark. Mark: yes, I would very much appreciate if you could explain your conclusion. The last 3 all have similar coloured reddish mid-veins. I am also suprised to see tuberosum in Uppsala as I didn't think it was hardy enough for that area of Sweden. It is also a much bigger plant than other tuberosums I've seen. However, I know that there are a lot of cultivars, so I guess it is form-rich. For example, here's a picture of it used as a low hedge around the herb garden at RHS Rosemoor in the UK (the picture was taken late September):
Some Allium tuberosum forms also show red midveins, I've grown numerous forms and preferred those that had that characteristic. Here's a quick summary of the differences:
Allium ramosum generally flowers earlier, late spring to early summer, versus A. tuberosum that typically flowers late summer and into the fall. A. ramosum flowers show greater difference in inner/outer tepals (inner tepals much narrower), tending to have longer lanceolate to oblong tepals, held in an open campanulate fashion, as opposed to A. tuberosum that has more uniformly wider, ovate-oblong shorter tepals, less differentiation between inner/outer tepals, making a more even rosette shape floret, the starry flowers opening flat, not the slightest bit campanulate. Allium ramosum has channeled fistulose leaves, mostly apparent in the lower portion of the leaves. They are not inflated and as obviously fistulose (hollow) as in chives, but fistulose they are. The leaves are channeled in cross-section, and if a leaf is cut off near the base, one can feel the "give" when squeezing the partially hollow leaves, and one can peel the front face of the leaf from the back portion, to confirm the fistulose characteristic. Allium tuberosum on the other hand has flat leaves that are solid (not fistulose).
Not mentioned in the keys, but A. ramosum flowers last a normal time, then eventually go over to seed capsules. On the other hand, Allium tuberosum has an undesirable characteristic where it is exceedingly quick to start producing seed, so one gets flower heads that have both new flowers and swelling ovaries and developing capsules all at the same time during late anthesis. Its propensity to seed so quickly (I believe the species is apomictic) is why it can become such a pest species, not to mention spoiling the look of the flowers. There are bulb differences too, I hope to show a photo of both to show the differences.
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Mark, thanks for the professional explanation of the difference between Allium rotundum and A.atroviolaceum. You seem to be right. As for Alliun fuscoviolaceum I used to have it from the same souce but I lost it last year for I don't know what reason. It is an exaptional thing. A drumstick allium, but the colour!!! Something close (darker as far as I remember) to A.atropurpureum.
Will look at the bulbs of my A.rotundum/atroviolaceum today
Thanks again
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Mark: Appreciate your tuberosum/ramosum description. This will be very helpful - I remember using Flora of China and checking the fistulose leaves, but ending up not certain. Your added details will get me there... Thanks.
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Mark: Appreciate your tuberosum/ramosum description. This will be very helpful - I remember using Flora of China and checking the fistulose leaves, but ending up not certain. Your added details will get me there... Thanks.
Stephen, I had to look around hard to find any Allium tuberosum (my tuberosum-eradication plan must be working), but did find a small clump, so uprooted it and a piece of A. ramosum, washed off the soil, to make the comparison.
1 Allium ramosum flower head, showing the fastigiate inflorescence and openly campanulate florets. Will not have any tuberosum for many weeks yet for comparison.
2 leaf cross-sections, Allium ramosum on the left (cut with sharp knife for better visibility on the fistulose leaves, if torn by hand or dull clippers, the fistulose character is not so obvious when the leaf crushes), A. tuberosum on right. The leaves on tuberosum are flat, but closer to the base they can be slightly channeled, as seen in the photo.
3 Plant with bulbs and roots; A. tuberosum on the left, A. ramosum on the right.
4 Close up of bulbs and roots; A. tuberosum on left, A. ramosum on right. Allium tuberosum has multiple growth points attached, whereas A. ramosum has one growth point per bulb. Allium tuberosum connected to diagonally descending rhizome; with A. ramosum older portions of the vertical rihizome at the bottom tend to rot off. Both species have very strong entwining root systems.
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Previously I posted information from Dr. Eric Block, Professor of Chemistry, University at Albany, SUNY, and his recent book "Garlic and Other Alliums - The Lore and The Science" published by the Royal Society of Chemistry.
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=5766.msg145659#msg145659 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=5766.msg145659#msg145659)
I recently heard from Dr, Block and received updated information about the book and various speaking engagements and radio/tv interviews, so I'm posting that information here.
The hardcover version of the book has sold out. However a paperback (softback) version is now available ($39.95 in the U.S., 25 GBP in the UK).
hardcover - http://www.rsc.org/shop/books/2009/9780854041909.asp (http://www.rsc.org/shop/books/2009/9780854041909.asp)
paperback - http://www.rsc.org/shop/books/2010/9781849731805.asp (http://www.rsc.org/shop/books/2010/9781849731805.asp)
Dr. Block gave a free lecture on Allium science at the New York Botanical Gardens on Friday, July 2, at 11 AM. This venue has already happened, but for a 23-minute audio podcast of NPR's Science Friday, click this link:
http://podcastdownload.npr.org/anon.npr-podcasts/podcast/510221/128276253/npr_128276253.mp3?_kip_ipx=1042707938-1278114581 (http://podcastdownload.npr.org/anon.npr-podcasts/podcast/510221/128276253/npr_128276253.mp3?_kip_ipx=1042707938-1278114581)
For those in England, Dr. Block will be giving an illustrated public lecture at the Chemistry Centre of the Royal Society of Chemistry in London on July 15 at 18:30. While the talk is free, advance registration is required since space is limited. At this event, Dr. Block will also be signing copies of his book. For more information or to register, click here:
http://www.rsc.org/AboutUs/ChemistryCentre/Events/saladbowl.asp?CFID=4467093&CFTOKEN=97899321 (http://www.rsc.org/AboutUs/ChemistryCentre/Events/saladbowl.asp?CFID=4467093&CFTOKEN=97899321)
Also, for those in Scotland, Dr. Block has been assisting BBC-TV on a feature they are producing on onions for a program called 'Jimmy's Food Factory 2', BBC Scotland. He does not know when it will air, but believes it should be of interest to Scottish Allium-lovers.
Other news of interest to those in the UK and the EU
A new environmentally-benign garlic-based pesticide has just this week been fully approved by the UK regulators for horticultural use, such as with root crops like carrots and parsnips, as well as on turf grass in golf courses and soccer fields, etc. EU approval has also recently been received.
The product is now commercially available from a small UK company (full disclosure: Dr. Block is a scientific consultant for them) called ECOspray. The ECOspray website is currently being updated with the new information and it may be a week or more before it is up to date. Here is the link: http://www.ecospray.com/index.php (http://www.ecospray.com/index.php)
More information on Dr. Eric Block
e-mail: eb801@albany.edu
http://www.albany.edu/chemistry/eblock.shtml (http://www.albany.edu/chemistry/eblock.shtml)
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Had a listen to the podcast the other day - very interesting! Thanks for posting this, Mark.
Thanks also for the further details on tuberosum/ramosum - will be having a proper look as soon as I get some time.
I mentioned a dwarf cernuum the other day. I received it as SRGC seed 140 in January 2009. It's just in flower and it doesn't look like cernuum unfortunately. I also sowed A. wallichii the same day (SRGC seed 197) and this also seems to be the same plant and I can't see how I could have mixed the two up, but it's not impossible. I thought initially it was Allium cyathophorum farreri (a well-known impostor I believe) but comparing with my old farreri I see it's different. I'll take a picture when the flowers are out properly.
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Alliums in the "Weekly Lisse Flowershow 2010" thread:
(note: can also scroll up from the link starting point, for a few more Allium pics)
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4969.msg159029#msg159029
McMark response:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4969.msg159347#msg159347
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I got from a friend some tiny alliums
they look a little bit like Allium olympicum
can anybody confirm this
so I can put a label on
Roland
Thanks Mark The first 2 pots are not olympicum
the third pot probably Allium kurtzianum
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Another one I collected by accident at Sicily
a pretty small one just now in flower
it was in between small Ornithogalum
No idea what it is but I hope it makes seeds
Roland
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Another one I collected by accident at Sicily
a pretty small one just now in flower
it was in between small Ornithogalum
No idea what it is but I hope it makes seeds
Roland
Roland, that's a nice onion. Knowing where it is from is very important, as without that knowledge, one would need to consider a couple dozen very similar looking Allium species in Section Codonoprasum. Since it is from Sicily, I believe the plant is A. paniculatum or A. pallens, closely related species, both found in Sicily.
Before anyone disagrees with the Allium pallens possibility, let me explain: Allium pallens is widespread throughout Southern Europe, and growers will be much more familiar with its typical form that has blunt, nearly truncate ends to the tepals, giving it a most distinctive look... it looks very similar to A. paniculatum, but with a more dense head of bloom and those curious cut-off-ended petals, I've grown a number of forms of this in the past. However, there are two subspecies of A. pallens that have rounded to acute ends to the tepals, one of these subspecies is Allium pallens ssp. siciliense. Allium pallens has an ovary that is 2-3x longer than wide, nearly as long as the tepals, except in ssp. siciliense the ovary is much shorter than the tepals. Roland, can you give up 1 florets to remove a couple tepals, to show the ovary?
So, three possibilities... A. paniculatum, A. pallens, A. pallens ssp. siciliense.
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I got from a friend some tiny alliums
they look a little bit like Allium olympicum
can anybody confirm this
so I can put a label on
Roland
Roland, I see two different Allium species shown in those three photos. Do you have any information about where these Alliums come from, or are native to?
The last photo looks like what goes around as Allium "olympicum", but is in reality A. kurtzianum. Originally from an ACW collection in Turkey, the species was misidentified as A. olympicum, a valid species, but the plant was actually A. kurtzianum.
The first two photos show the something that looks like the enigmatic rose-lilac Turkish Alliums I discussed at length much earlier in this thread, see:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4757.msg138177#msg138177
I'm still not sure what they are. To some extent, they look like small, floriferous forms of A. carinatum ssp. pulchellum, but according to the author on the Allium section in Flora of Turkey, collections made in Turkey said to be that species, he feels belong to one of the other rather similar closely related species instead.
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Hello Mark
You really know how to get somebody mad
peeling of a 3 mm small part from a flower you don't want to harm
and later after a second nervous breakdown he wants Pictures
from a 1 mm small part in a windy tunnel
I did not make 100 pictures but it was not much less
but finally see pictures
Roland
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Hello Mark
For the Allium olympicum I got them from Koos
he is sometime here on the forum
He has a alpine nursery
I will ask him where he got it
The pot is replanted in the garden
it should be the same
Roland
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Hello Mark
You really know how to get somebody mad peeling of a 3 mm small part from a flower you don't want to harm and later after a second nervous breakdown he wants Pictures from a 1 mm small part in a windy tunnel I did not make 100 pictures but it was not much less
but finally see pictures
Roland
Roland, thanks for showing up the detailed photos, they should make everyone happy, yourself to find and ID on the plant, and to forumists who get to see the details first hand. The ovary is small, about as tall as wide, so that rules out A. paniculatum (which has an ovary about 2x tall as wide) and pallens ssp. pallens (also with a taller-than-wide ovary), but with such a short rotund ovary it must be A. pallens ssp. siciliense. Your are lucky to have such a rarely seen Mediterranean allium show up by mistake in your Onithogalum collection, congratulations.
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Hello Mark
For the Allium olympicum I got them from Koos
he is sometime here on the forum
He has a alpine nursery
I will ask him where he got it
The pot is replanted in the garden
it should be the same
Roland
Roland, do you agree that the first two photos (in your 3-photo posting) show a particular allium, and the 3rd photo shows a *different* allium. I see two different allium species among those 3 photos, do you agree? I can't quite tell what you're saying, but you seem to be saying all three allium photos (2 in a pot, 1 outside) are all the same species. Can you clarify?
It is the last one that I immediately recognize as A. kurtzianum (syn. A. olympicum of Hort). The first two represent a different species.
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My memory is to mall
but I thought I replanted the ones in the pot
near the little rose but not true
this is nr 06-303 from Koos
the one in the pot 06-246 From Dix export
so 2 different suppliers and 2 different plants
Mistake from my memory
Roland
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After a month of blooming, the season of Allium cernuum continues, with ever more forms and colors. We also start seeing how the flower heads go over, in some forms always maintaining the nodding form of the individual florets, while in others turning skyward and elongating straight up.
1-2 some plants with well-formed flower heads, lots of them
3 beautiful pearl pink-white form
4 mixed small flower-head types, I've been selecting for these cuties
5-6 robust deep rose forms senescing gracefully and in place
7 nice palest pink near-white one with charcoal pedicels and pedicel ends
8 three senescent heads turning straight up and turning deep rose, 2 fresh rose heads
9-10 more good flowered forms
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One thing I have been selected for, is good clumping forms of Allium cernuum. Some are happy to just sit there and almost never divide, while others make large congested clumps with many dozens of flower stems. The season of Allium cernuum is about midway through, some going over, some just starting.
11 a particularly good clumping form that makes a bold statement in the garden.
12 forms with red pedicels are relatively rare, this is a good one
13-17 A. cernuum 'Wall of Pink' - a tentative nickname for a wonderful robust form that appeared in my garden, growing to 2' (60 cm), with large and beautiful sculpted heads, each mid pink floret held by an thick, arching, charcoal pedicel... the pedicels aging to a darker charcoal color. To be introduced.
18 A few-flowered particularly large effuse headed form, going over to seed
19 A. cernuum 'Tidy Pink' - another nickname for a small cluster-headed form, the flower heads 1/2 to 1/3rd the normal size, but cute and well formed. Lighter this year due to the incessant high heat.
20 a nice form shown earlier when opening palest pink, finishing as white in the heat
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The season continues. Normally the plants shown here would be blooming in August, but with this year's early season by 2-3 weeks, it is a July showing. With enough Allium cernuum forms, one can have a full 2-1/2 months (10 weeks) of flowering, with a small overlap with the successor and close ally of the day, Allium stellatum, continuing the show until autumn.
21 Allium cernuum breaking into bud offers some most intriguing geometry, this one from June
22 and the buds just keep on coming!
23-24 a late compact white-flowering form
25 in the high heat in the 90s F (32-34 C) more of the white and pastel color forms seem to come out, indifferent to the heat, in this view, a light pink form
26 a small and delicate pale pink form visited by a bumblebee
27 A. cernuum x rubens, a strange small-flowered hybrid between nodding onion and the Asian A. rubens. The florets barely open, staying as tiny orbs with stamens just poking through.
28-29 A. 'Rosey Affair' - hybrid between our native Allium stellatum x Asian species A. senescens. It is a wonderful plant that was selected from a number of such crosses over the last decade... it is named Allium 'Rosey Affair' (the name Rosey is spelled as intended). The flower color deepens to a rich pink as they open and age. A second photo shows 2-year old seedlings from it, they closely resemble the parent in habit but vary in flower color. Normally this is an August bloomer, but as I've been harping on, the season is 2-3 weeks earlier than normal this year.
30 and the buds just keep on coming, in this view, late forms of Allium cernuum and some of the earlier A. stellatum, all with nodding and bendy-curvy flower stems.
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Some allium flowering now
1. Allium pseudoflavum
2. Allium carinatum pulhellum in the evening sun
3. Allium flavum
4. Allium sikkimense
5. Allium angulosum
6. I received this as Allium splendens var. kurilense, but it looks much like Mark's Allium sernuum (deep pink). Mark, what do you think of it?
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Some allium flowering now
1. Allium pseudoflavum
2. Allium carinatum pulhellum in the evening sun
3. Allium flavum
4. Allium sikkimense
5. Allium angulosum
6. I received this as Allium splendens var. kurilense, but it looks much like Mark's Allium sernuum (deep pink). Mark, what do you think of it?
Oleg, nice profile photos on each! The A. pseudoflavum is lovely, if you get any seed on that one, I would certainly love to try it.
Regarding the last one, there is no published Allium name of "kurilense" nor does there exist a combination A. splendens var. "kurilense", anything by such an invalid name is something else. There are in fact, two published subspecies names of Allium splendens, ssp. insulare (its current status is in doubt) and ssp. prokhanovii, which I believe has been elevated to species level as A. prokhanovii.
In cultivation, this thing called "Allium splendens var. kurilense" is everywhere, even though it is a bogus made-up fictitious name, and invariably plants that get sent out under this name are Allium cernuum, or more likely, Allium thunbergii or Allium virgunculae. The tip-off should be as well, that Allium splendens is a small bulbous species, with very narrow upright leaves and stems, and tight little drumstick knobs of light lilac flowers, not terribly exciting. All the things that sent out as "kurilense", either as seed or plants, look nothing like Allium splendens.
As a consolation, you have ended up with a rather good form of Allium cernuum.
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re;Allium sp. SBQE 1179
Question re: Allium sp. SBQE 1179
Has this one been identified?
Re: Allium sp. SBQE 1179
Please post a photo and some details about the plant.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, near the New Hampshire border, USDA Zone 5
antennaria@charter.net
Some bad pics:
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Re: Allium sp. SBQE 1179
Arisaema, I have not looked extensively at the Flora of China yet, but I was wondering, can you either take a cut-away closeup photo which shows the inner and outer filaments... many species determinations depend on whether the inner or outer filaments are toothed or not. In lieu of that, if you could make a simplistic diagram such as the sample one I show, then scan it and post here, that would work too. An initial guess is that it is Allium polyrhizum, but I need this additional bit of information to help narrow in on possibilities.
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Re: Allium sp. SBQE 1179
Thanks! These pictures are terrible, but as far as I can see it's the inner filaments that are toothed (like in the illustration). I can take measurements of the flower or pictures of the tunic and bulb if you need them?
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Re: Allium sp. SBQE 1179
Thanks! These pictures are terrible, but as far as I can see it's the inner filaments that are toothed (like in the illustration). I can take measurements of the flower or pictures of the tunic and bulb if you need them?
Thanks, those photos helped. The line drawing is taken from the tepal and filament shape of A. polyrhizum, so having toothed filaments is telling. I don't want you to disturb the plant in a any way, but if you do unpot it sometime to plant it out, please let us know what the bulbs are like... there is a drawing of A. polyrhizum showing the strongly reticulate bulb coats.
There are two species very close to each other, both from Qinghai, that seem to match your plant, but indeed tepal dimensions are important to tell the two apart. Can your measure the tepal length and width of your plant (both inner and outer tepals). The two species are Allium polyrhizum and A. subangulatum. There might be other possibilities too. Here are links to both botanical descriptions, and the tepal dimensions of each.
Allium subangulatum
tepals 6-8.5 mm long × 2.5-3 mm wide
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=240001062
Allium polyrhizum
tepals 3-5 mm long × 1.5-2.5 mm wide
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200027519
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Mark, insects are at work so i believe I'll have some seeds. Send me an e-mail with the address and you are guaranteed the seed.
Thanks for clarification about Allium splendens. Anyway this Allium cernuum is the tallest and darkest in my garden
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Re: Allium sp. SBQE 1179
Thanks again! Tepals are 5.5 x 2mm, so they weren't much help... Inner and outer tepals are more or less identical, there's very little overlapping at the base. I'll get a picture of the tunic once the rain stops, seem to remember it being pale beige.
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Re: Allium sp. SBQE 1179
...and the tunic is indeed reticulate :)
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Re: Allium sp. SBQE 1179
Arisaema, based on tepal size, on the smaller side like A. polyrhizum as compared to A. subangulatum, I'd probably go with A. polyrhizum as the ID. HOWEVER, while it seems a good fit, I offer the disclaimer that doing this type of over-the-web plant ID'ing, and not necessarily going through the keys from absolute start to finish, without all of the characteristics at hand, there's a possibility it is something else. That said, I have a fairly high level of confidence it closely matches the description of Allium polyrhizum, and it is a species found in the same area as the SBQE location in China.
Thanks also for cooperating with the request for more details, the bulb coats are just as I would have expected. In this ID case, both polyrhizum and subangulatum have similar bulb coats, the benefit of seeing this characteristic is to further cement the identification to the right possibility of allied species.
Keep that one growing and hopefully donate seed to seed exchanges one day.
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Re: Allium sp. SBQE 1179
I can add a "cf." to the label if you prefer, but as far as I can tell it matches the description in the FoC perfectly :)
If you have time for another one I have some better pictures of Magnar's Caucasus-species. It's measurements are as follows:
Tepal: 11mm x 2mm
Inner filaments: 6mm (+ anthers 1mm)
Outer filaments: 4mm (+ anthers 1mm)
Ovary: 3mm x 1.5mm, with what looks like three locules
Style: 1mm
Pedicel (at anthesis): 10mm
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I have an ID question too.
Last year I received three bulbs, two as Allium cyaneum and one as Allium sikkimense. One of them looks quite different and the other two are quite similar. The problem is that one of the A. cyaneum looks like the sikkimense and I'm not sure which is which. See (not so clear) pics below.
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I have an ID question too.
Last year I received three bulbs, two as Allium cyaneum and one as Allium sikkimense. One of them looks quite different and the other two are quite similar. The problem is that one of the A. cyaneum looks like the sikkimense and I'm not sure which is which. See (not so clear) pics below.
Wim, all three are Allium sikkimense. The species is represented in Hort by a number of forms. Key difference in telling sikkimense from cyaneum: stamens not exserted in sikkimense, long exserted in cyaneum.
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Thanks Marc,
You're really an onion-God ;) ;D
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If you have time for another one I have some better pictures of Magnar's Caucasus-species.
Arisaema, excellent set of diagnostic photos! Isn't this the same Allium that we've seen on this forum before, a large flowering patch of lovely light pink - dark pink striped flowers? I believe it is. Wasn't able to pinpoint an ID on it before, but the detail photos sure help. The difficulty here is that the Caucasus cover a number of regions and several countries, and thus different floras, some of which are not generally accessible, if even they exist. There is some possible species coverage with adjacent countries and their floras (Flora of Turkey, Flora of Iran, Flora of the USSR), but I know for example a number of new species are described in such places as Armenia, and who knows about tghe taxonomic state of affairs in Georgia and Azerbaijan. I'll see what I can come up with; although may forward this to Dr. Reinhard Fritsch and Kurt Vickery to see if it "rings any bells" for either of them.
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Thanks Marc,
You're really an onion-God ;) ;D
Actually, for the 2010 allium summer season, I am the self-declared "onion avenger" ;D :P
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Thanks Marc,
You're really an onion-God ;) ;D
Actually, for the 2010 allium summer season, I am the self-declared "onion avenger" ;D :P
They need to be avenged :o... I didn't do anything ;) ::)
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Thanks Marc,
You're really an onion-God ;) ;D
Actually, for the 2010 allium summer season, I am the self-declared "onion avenger" ;D :P
They need to be avenged :o... I didn't do anything ;) ::)
My moniker doesn't necessarily need to make sense, it just is ;D ;D 8)
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Having too much fun on the forum today, must go outside and actually do some gardening in the heat. This little allium is flowering at the moment.
Allium parciflorum - from 1993 AGS seedlist. A very small slender plant, thus difficult to photograph. Over the years, it will slowly colonize a small area and send up a thicket of wiry stems reaching 10-12" (25-30 cm) topped with small few-flowered sprays of tiny pinkish funnels. Not showy, but cute and reliable, useful for its mid July flowering. After flowering it dries up and goes dormant, then in the fall it resprouts with hair-thin silvery leaves that remain evergreen through winter. From Corsica and Sardinia, it is surprising that it is so hardy.
1-2 old photos from 2001 (not very good quality) showing this species in bud, then in flower.
3 same colony in 2010, in bud, with an invading pale-flowered dwarf A. schoenoprasum just behind.
4 flower detail - tiny pinkish tubular flowers.
5 flowering plants with bulbs
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Hi
Allium cyaneum flowering now. :)
Graham
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Hi
Allium cyaneum flowering now. :)
Graham
Sorry Graham, but it's another nice Allium sikkimense, but since A. sikkimense is typically the hardy one to get true-to-name, you're one up on the deal. I used to grow about 10 different forms of Allium cyaneum, but down to just one these days. In Allium cyaneum, the stamens are about twice as long as the tepals, sometimes a little shorter but always well exserted.
Most of my photos were slides, and the scans look terrible, so I include only one. Also included is a line drawing I made of Allium cyaneum. Then, I provide links to teh NARGS Photo Library showing A. cyaneum, and a couple more photo links.
NARGS Photo Gallery: Allium cyaneum
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nargs.org/nargswiki/show_image.php%3Fid%3D72%26scalesize%3D0%26nocount%3Dy&imgrefurl=http://www.nargs.org/nargswiki/tiki-browse_image.php%3FimageId%3D72&usg=__r3ZxzB2zB0R6-9X_ojzKLyzEP8A=&h=641&w=530&sz=78&hl=en&start=6&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Ibjg9Ra2_-cpHM:&tbnh=137&tbnw=113&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dallium%2Bcyaneum%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26tbs%3Disch:1
short URL: http://www.nargs.org/nargswiki/show_image.php?id=72&scalesize=0&nocount=y
NARGS Photo Gallery: Allium cyaneum closeup
http://www.nargs.org/nargswiki/tiki-browse_image.php?galleryId=7&sort_mode=name_asc&imageId=297&scalesize=0
short url: http://www.nargs.org/nargswiki/show_image.php?id=297&scalesize=o
more photo links:
http://www.thyboesmindestauder.dk/alfabet_staudeliste/abc/Allium%20cyaneum14.jpg
http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/2008/08/08/plantaholic186/f3ca26.jpg
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Hi
Allium cyaneum flowering now. :)
Graham
Sorry Graham, but it's another nice Allium sikkimense,
Thanks Mark.
Oh well! I'll just have to change the name. It's blue and it's nice. Which were the two reasons I bought it :)
I can see the difference from the links you posted. I just have to trust the nurseries that I buy my plants from until someone like you informs me otherwise.
Graham
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but since A. sikkimense is typically the hardy one to get true-to-name, you're one up on the deal.
Count me in as the third person who grows mislabelled A. sikkimense, one received as A. beesianum and the other as A. cyaneum :-\
The striped pink is the one mentioned earlier in the thread, the colour is a bit off as my camera doesn't like cloudy weather - and the plant itself is getting overgrown by a huge Aster. Here's Magnar's picture of it (http://magnar.aspaker.no/Allium%20sp%20ex%20Caucasus.jpg). Thanks for taking a go at it, it's been passed around quite a lot here in Norway, so it would be nice to finally be able to put a name to it!
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but since A. sikkimense is typically the hardy one to get true-to-name, you're one up on the deal.
Count me in as the third person who grows mislabelled A. sikkimense, one received as A. beesianum and the other as A. cyaneum :-\
Actually, I think I've never seen the real A. cyaneum then. It would seem it's not as easy to find in Europe!
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Some years ago I bought Allium siculum var bulgaricum,some time down the track it became Nectaroscordum siculum.Always when it flowered the flower stem was bent.have now been told by a nursery person that this was caused by the bulbs being virused,is this correct bye Ray
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Hi
Allium cyaneum flowering now. :)
Graham
Sorry Graham, but it's another nice Allium sikkimense,
Thanks Mark.
Oh well! I'll just have to change the name. It's blue and it's nice. Which were the two reasons I bought it :)
I can see the difference from the links you posted. I just have to trust the nurseries that I buy my plants from until someone like you informs me otherwise.
Graham
I have just checked the web-site of the nursery I bought it from and they still have it for sale as A. cyaneum with a photo almost identical to mine. Allium aren't one of the nurseries specialist areas so I suspect they are unaware of the mis-naming.
Graham
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McMark, there can't be many people out there with as much detailed knowledge of Allium as you have. If I were a Publisher (and I'm not!) I would be beating a path to your door with a view to your producing a much needed monograph.
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but since A. sikkimense is typically the hardy one to get true-to-name, you're one up on the deal.
Count me in as the third person who grows mislabelled A. sikkimense, one received as A. beesianum and the other as A. cyaneum :-\
Actually, I think I've never seen the real A. cyaneum then. It would seem it's not as easy to find in Europe!
Wim, Graham, and Arisaema - I'm surprised to find out that it's hard to find true Allium cyaneum in Europe. Somewhere, somehow, the misidentified plants have made their way into nurseries, which as we know accelerates the problem :'( Funny thing though, most often the usurping misidentified Alliums are common things like A. cernuum and A. cyathophorum var. farreri. In North America I have not experienced much confusion with A. cyaneum, might be worth trying from NARGS Seedex or other seed sources.
There are only a handful of blue Chinese Allium species, only three common to horticulture, all easily separated. Here's a good general rule of thumb or mini key:
A. Stamens well exserted................ 1. Allium cyaneum
Stamens not exserted................. B
B Tepals 6-10 mm...................... 2. Allium sikkimense
Tepals 11-14 (17) mm............... 3. Allium beesianum
Of course, there are other differing characteristics, and other blue species, but this is a tried and true method of separate these 3 often-confused species. All are choice slow growers for a good rich well-drained position in the partly shaded rock garden or trough.
I notice the FOC has been adding some photos of plants in the wild, welcome additions. Here are 4 links to Allium sikkimense photos in FOC of plants in the wild.
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=87660&flora_id=800
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=87661&flora_id=800
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=87662&flora_id=800
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=87663&flora_id=800
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Some years ago I bought Allium siculum var bulgaricum,some time down the track it became Nectaroscordum siculum.Always when it flowered the flower stem was bent.have now been told by a nursery person that this was caused by the bulbs being virused,is this correct bye Ray
Ray, I grow Nectaroscordum siculum, bulbs purchased from local nursery centers that sell imported Dutch bulbs, and have not noticed any virus problems. I have experienced the situation where some stems bend and twist, or partially recline, and don't stand up as straight as they might, but never thought of that being virus-induced. I just thought it was the way the plant grew, but maybe the nurseryman is correct... I don't have enough experience with this. Mine are increasing and put on a good show this year, although I did get a number of semi-decumbent stems, which in the end turn upright and seem to flower okay, but I attributed the less-than-erect stems to the fact my plants are now getting some shade, and this is a sun loving plant.
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McMark, there can't be many people out there with as much detailed knowledge of Allium as you have. If I were a Publisher (and I'm not!) I would be beating a path to your door with a view to your producing a much needed monograph.
Thanks David. Actually, I was approached a couple times by publishers to write a book. The last time, I set forth a list of items they'd need to agree to, such as *no (culinary) recipes* to be included... so what if a botanical genus contains edible plants, does that fact require inclusion of recipes? Other prerequisites were agreed to, such as significant coverage on hybrids, highlighted variation of selected species, using Alliums as landscape plants, etc. The problem was too short a time frame to write a book, and insufficient time the following growing season with which to take photos, and as I was working ridiculous hours (all for nothing it seems), I had to turn the request down.
I don't think any future book could be a true monograph, it is simply too huge a task, and there are botanists/taxonomists who are light-years more experienced than myself. I'm in awe of works such as Brian Mathew's "A Review of Allium Section Allium", an exemplary treatise on this one section of Allium if ever there was one. I could not begin to write something as well articulated, researched and scientifically accurate as Mr. Mathew's important work. If I eventually do write something, it will be a potpourri exercise in alliaceous self-indulgence.
And now for something completely different, I was cleaning up old papers and stacks of stuff in my home office, and came across a newspaper article from 1994 in which my oniony interests were featured, in The Boston Globe newspaper. I uploaded the black and white photo from that article... hard to believe I had as much hair 16 years ago, and it was dark and not white! The photo is not trick photography, but a clever trompe-l'œil by the staff photograph. He was a distance back higher up on my hilly yard using a telephoto lens, and I'm kneeling down next to a bed of Allium 'Globe Master'... makes the Allium heads appear to be 7' (2+ meters) tall. ;D
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Here's my Allium cyaneum (from another gardener in this area - she noted she wasn't sure of its identity):
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Here's my Allium cyaneum (from another gardener in this area - she noted she wasn't sure of its identity):
ding ding ding, a winner here... give this man a cupie doll ;D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kewpie_doll_%28toy%29)
Yes Stephen, this is A. cyaneum! Is the second shot a different form, or the same? Good clear detail on those two flower heads.
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Same plant and I can also see the exserted stamens on this one at high resolution.
If I'd realised this was the prize, I wouldn't have entered ;)
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Hi Mark thanks for the reply,the next time I catch up with this person I will ask him were he got this information.bye Ray
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From Chen Yi, presumably another A. sikkimense? It's much nicer and larger-flowered than my other two forms, at least... :)
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Received as Allium forrestii from one of the Czechs... Isn't it supposed to be more red than this?
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From Chen Yi, presumably another A. sikkimense? It's much nicer and larger-flowered than my other two forms, at least... :)
Very nice form! Yes, it is variable, and a number of forms exist in cultivation, and now, this Chen Yi collected form. The close-up showing the mouth of the flower and ends of the tepals, shows a diagnostic characteristic... the denticulate ends to the tepals. The other species that looks like sikkimense is beesianum, but A. beesianum has smooth ends to the tepals. The dark insides to the flowers are dramatic in your plant.
Received as Allium forrestii from one of the Czechs... Isn't it supposed to be more red than this?
Ooh, this is one I have wanted for a long time, I love these small grassy Chinese species. Yours looks correct. The flower color is variable, in FOC described as "purple to dark purple", although I believe more variable than that, and includes red colors. Sampson Clay in the rock gardening tome "The Present Day Rock Garden", complement to Reginald Farrer's "The English Rock Garden", says of Allium forrestii "remarkable deep magenta purple or claret-red flowers". He goes on to say "It is very variable, particularly in height, and some of the dwarf 2- to 6-inch forms are really desirable". This species is closely related to A. kingdonii.
The Flora of China entry on A. forrestii has added 5 photo links as part of the "Photos by The Biodiversity of the Hengduan Mountains Project". There are contributions by two photographers, Susan Kelley and David Boufford.
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200027479
Please Note: 2 of the 5 FOC photos of A. forrestii are incorrectly identified! Photos 2 & 3 by David Boufford look correct, and closely resemble your plant... it shows a distinctly red color flower. Photos 1 & 4 by Susan Kelley are incorrect, they show an Allium species with pinched flowers and long exserted stamens (stamens are not exserted in A. forrestii), and based on exserted stamens that reflex outwards, it is most likely A. przewalskianum, or even a depauperate form of A. carolinianum that also shows such stamen characteristics. Photo 5 looks closer to A. forrestii in a lighter pinkish-purple color.
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To add to the Allium sikkimense and beesianum differentiation, I have ignored another species, A. yuanum, because while it is very close to sikkimense, I have never received anything by this name, nor found plants that exactly matches this species in terms of tepal characteristics. It is separated from A. sikkimense on several minor points, slight tepal differences, and the leaves are abaxially keeled.
From the FOC key on these two species:
Allium yuanum - perianth segments acuminate at apex, equal, irregularly denticulate at margin, rarely outer ones entire; leaves abaxially keeled, usually twisted when dry.
Allium sikkimense - perianth segments obtuse at apex, inner ones longer and wider than outer, only inner ones irregularly denticulate at margin; leaves flat.
FOC on Allium yuanum
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200027554
FOC drawing comparing both A. sikkimense and yuanum:
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=60232&flora_id=2
Here's a link on Asianflora.com of purported Allium yuanum. A number of Allium photos on their site are misnamed, but this one is identified as photographed in Sichuan, China... good photos showing a beautiful blue allium.
http://www.asianflora.com/Alliaceae/Allium-yuanum.htm
It is possible I suppose, that some of what people grow as A. sikkimense could be A. yuanum. Oniony food for thought.
(PS. Arisaema: your blue Chen Yi Allium seems definitely to be A. sikkimense, not yuanum, I can clearly see that the inner tepals on your plant are longer than the outer tepals).
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Thanks for confirming A. forrestii, I'll just have to keep looking for a good, red form. I'm happy to send you a couple of bulbs with the Polygonatum, it's nice, but not that nice ;)
Just to add to the confusion: The Chen Yi plant has leaves that are clearly keeled, while my two clones of "sikkimense" both have flat leaves. Interestingly the illustration shows the complete opposite of what's mentioned in the key and species description - illustration #2 closely match my plant, showing shorter outer tepals and filaments widening at the base. Did something get lost in translation? :P
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Here are two Chinese herbarium specimens showing A. yuanum and A. sikkimense, more can be found in the links below.
A. yuanum (http://www.cvh.org.cn/biaoben/details.asp?RecordNo=00156813&mode=1&guan=pe) 2 (http://www.cvh.org.cn/biaoben/details.asp?RecordNo=00034453&mode=1&guan=PE)
A. sikkimense (http://www.cvh.org.cn/biaoben/details.asp?RecordNo=00139612&mode=1&guan=PE) 2 (http://www.cvh.org.cn/biaoben/details.asp?RecordNo=00139510&mode=1&guan=PE) 3 (http://www.cvh.org.cn/biaoben/details.asp?RecordNo=00034339&mode=1&guan=PE) 4 (http://www.cvh.org.cn/biaoben/details.asp?RecordNo=00034340&mode=1&guan=PE) 5 (http://www.cvh.org.cn/biaoben/details.asp?RecordNo=00034338&mode=1&guan=PE)
You certainly did give my some oniony food for thought...
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The original descriptions in the Flora Reipublicae Popularis Sinicae:
A. yuanum (http://www.cvh.org.cn/zhiwuzhi/page/14/228.pdf)
A. sikkimense (http://www.cvh.org.cn/zhiwuzhi/page/14/229.pdf)
If nothing else it clearly shows that illustrations #2 and #5 in the English translation have been switched...
Also, the description and illustration for A. sikkimense (http://www.cvh.org.cn/difangzhi/qinling/page/1(1)/377.pdf) from the Flora of Qinling.
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The original descriptions in the Flora Reipublicae Popularis Sinicae:
A. yuanum (http://docs.google.com/gview?url=http://www.cvh.org.cn/zhiwuzhi/page/14/228.pdf)
A. sikkimense (http://docs.google.com/gview?url=http://www.cvh.org.cn/zhiwuzhi/page/14/229.pdf)
If nothing else it clearly shows that illustrations #2 and #5 in the English translation have been switched...
Also, the description and illustration for A. sikkimense (http://www.cvh.org.cn/difangzhi/qinling/page/1(1)/377.pdf) from the Flora of Qinling.
I hadn't noticed before, I think you found a mistake; I believe that when they recomposed separate drawings from Flora Reipublicae Popularis Sinicae of Allium sikkimense and A. yuanum, they must have simply relabeled the tepal diagram incorrectly... I do not believe that it was a deliberate change of scientific heart to make the switch, just a mistake. I hadn't noticed this before, as I almost never go back to Flora Reipublicae Popularis Sinicae anymore, with the FOC online and so handy. Here's a screen capture putting it all together (Maggi, this will be extra wide and require scrolling, but necessary, as are the herbarium specimen views :D).
In the herbarium links above (by the way, thanks for posting these), I really can't draw any conclusions from them, just not high enough resolution with which to zoom in REALLY CLOSE to see the tepal shapes... I have a hard time with these old eyes to determine which are inner and outer tepals on those images, even the higher res ones that can be clicked on. The only thing I get an impression of, is that yuanum has more sharply acute tepals (at least upon drying). Frankly, my gut feeling is that A. yuanum is too narrowly defined as a "species" from A. sikkimense.
I have some Alliums collected by Darrell Probst, and in each case when I key them, they do not fit neatly into any one species. Do they represent a new species, or just WAY MORE variation than attributed for that species? For example, there's a small blue flowered one; when forced it will key to A. cyaneum (one of the few blue-flowered species with long exserted stamens), yet the growth is so different from A. cyaneum, that side by side you'd say they cannot possible be the same species. I include a photo showing the flowers, but you can't see the long, decumbent finally-upturned flower stems, the leaves mostly sheathing these long wiry flower stems, unlike the mostly basal thread-thin leaves of cyaneum. So, does Darrell's plant represent a new species, or do we try and hammer this square peg into a round existing FOC species hole, and call it A. cyaneum? Personally, I think it is an undescribed species ;) With the sikkimense/yuanum situation, the two "species" are too narrowly defined, and it's quite possible to find plants with some of both characteristics... one reason why I hesitated to even mention "yuanum" initially, it may as well be just one species.
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Yes, I assumed they had made a mistake as well, it's not the first time... Another problem I've noticed (with Nomocharis) is that they don't always amend the keys when reducing plants into synonyms.
Re: the lovely A. aff. cyaneum - have you checked the descriptions of the two synonyms listed: Allium hugonianum and A. szechuanicum?
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Thanks for confirming A. forrestii, I'll just have to keep looking for a good, red form. I'm happy to send you a couple of bulbs with the Polygonatum, it's nice, but not that nice ;)
My Allium forrestii has just flowered and definitely isn't as yours is correct! Mine looks like Chives..... :'(
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I mentioned a dwarf cernuum the other day. I received it as SRGC seed 140 in January 2009. It's just in flower and it doesn't look like cernuum unfortunately. I also sowed A. wallichii the same day (SRGC seed 197) and this also seems to be the same plant and I can't see how I could have mixed the two up, but it's not impossible. I thought initially it was Allium cyathophorum farreri (a well-known impostor I believe) but comparing with my old farreri I see it's different. I'll take a picture when the flowers are out properly.
I'm now getting a bit fed up with farreri - The dwarf cernuum is definitely this, as is the wallichii I mentioned above. Since then I have 2(!) more farreris! Allium delicatulum (SRGC seed) and Allium sibthorpianum (AGS). I also recieved farreri as A. roseum a few years ago...
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...and what about this one. I was given this as Allium yunnanense when I visited the Tromsø botanical garden last year. It seems this is a synonym of Allium mairei (FOC) which it most definitely isn't. It looks like a form of chives, but the flower scape (only one so far) is nodding.
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I'm now getting a bit fed up with farreri - The dwarf cernuum is definitely this, as is the wallichii I mentioned above. Since then I have 2(!) more farreris! Allium delicatulum (SRGC seed) and Allium sibthorpianum (AGS). I also recieved farreri as A. roseum a few years ago...
I bought A. callimischon from a small nursery last year, and received a pot of A. farreri in full flower... Allium at least are reasonably quick to flower, it's slightly more annyoing to have nursed Iris on for 5 years only to discover that every single one of the 5 different species you sowed are I. setosa :P I never bother with either genus from the seed exchanges anymore, unless I know (of) the donator.
(Will give my A. forrestii a bit of fertilizer so it bulks up, looks like it could prove popular... ;) )
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Yes, you have a good point...
Please put me on the waiting list, please ;) (you want a cyaneum, perhaps?)
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(you want a cyaneum, perhaps?)
...or a white-flowered chive! ;D
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or both....
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Hello to everybody who has love with Alliums!
I also have some pics from European part of Turkey. I hope to find correct name.
1-Allium guttatum sbsp.
But I am not sure about subspecies guttatum, sardoum or dalmaticum!!
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.and my second one.
2-Allium flavum subsp. flavum var. flavum
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I have a few more but I have no idea about these!..
5 and 6 taken in differnt locations.
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Yes, I assumed they had made a mistake as well, it's not the first time... Another problem I've noticed (with Nomocharis) is that they don't always amend the keys when reducing plants into synonyms.
Re: the lovely A. aff. cyaneum - have you checked the descriptions of the two synonyms listed: Allium hugonianum and A. szechuanicum?
No, I haven't done that yet, but I realize it is worth doing. Example, I received a plant of Allium taquetii H. Léveillé from a Dr. Lee at the US National Arboterum. Of course A. taquetii is a synonym of A. thunbergii. While the autumn purple flowers with long exserted stamens are just like A. thunbergii, the resemblance stops there, as the leaves are completely different, as is the bulb growth, the leaves are completely flat and yellow-green, not the normal semi-fistular trigonous or strongly keeled leaves of A. thunbergii. I think the A. thunbergii/sacculiferum/virgunculae/chinense clan needs a total taxonomic overhaul.
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...and what about this one. I was given this as Allium yunnanense when I visited the Tromsø botanical garden last year. It seems this is a synonym of Allium mairei (FOC) which it most definitely isn't. It looks like a form of chives, but the flower scape (only one so far) is nodding.
Stephen, if you keep this up, with so many Allium species coming up as misnomers, you will win another cupie doll ;D ;D ;D
Your "yunnanense" looks like a very good white chive form, probably more showy than the real A. mairei (syns. amabile, yunnanense, pyrrhorrhizum). I do get forms (rarely) of A. schoenoprasum that display lax or semi-nodding flower heads, I have photos someplace, I'll see if I can dig them up.
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Hello to everybody who has love with Alliums!
I also have some pics from European part of Turkey. I hope to find correct name.
1-Allium guttatum sbsp.
But I am not sure about subspecies guttatum, sardoum or dalmaticum!!
Ibrahim, thanks for posting some intriguing allium photos. It is late here, but soon I will be getting to these when I can.
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Stephen, if you keep this up, with so many Allium species coming up as misnomers, you will win another cupie doll ;D ;D ;D
Thanks for the confirmation, Mark.
If we tracked down the sources of these misnomers, we should send cupie dolls to them (receiving one of these would make me even more unhappy...). I will name this good form Allium schoenoprasum "Cupie".
Do any of the seed exchanges have a system of reporting errors? I know the Swedish seed exchage (STA) does.
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Some more alliums today (hope they are not misnamed)
1. Allium pskemense
2. Allium myrianthum
3. Allium senescens
4. Allium paniculatum (in the evening sun, as my camera doesn't seem to like the heat and bright sunshine we have been having for 5 weeks running)
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I have some more pics taken this week. I think they are,
Allium paniculatum subsp. fuscum
Allium guttatum subsp. guttatum.
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Hello to everybody who has love with Alliums!
I also have some pics from European part of Turkey. I hope to find correct name.
1-Allium guttatum sbsp.
But I am not sure about subspecies guttatum, sardoum or dalmaticum!!
Ibrahim, this appears to be A. guttatum ssp. sardoum, based on having white flowers with a colored medium stripe, versus an orbicular blotch as so well illustrated in you A. guttatum ssp. guttatum. It's a most handsome inflorescence with those purple anthers, thanks for showing such good closeup detail views at two stages of anthesis, and the bulb. Subspecies dalmaticum has pink to purple tepals.
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I have a few more but I have no idea about these!..
5 and 6 taken in differnt locations.
Regarding your Alliums 3, 4, 5, & 6. Ibrahim, are all of these found natively in Turkey? Knowing where they come from would certainly help, including which province in Turkey.
3 - unopened buds, and reddish bulbs; not enough information to guess at a species.
4 - photo shows late anthesis swelling seed capsules, and dark purplish/black bulblets. Could be any number of Allium section Allium species that have dense heads of bloom and dark bulblets, such as scordoroprasum, rotundum, other species. Need to see floral characteristics to make a judgement.
5 - Allium rotundum
6 - difficult to tell, definitely an Allium of Section Allium, need to get an idea of scale of the plant, also the inflorescence is early, so not sure if stamens and style would be more exserted later on, could be A. rotundum ssp. jajlae, rubrovittatum (a very small plant), or others... would need to have more information to make a more certain determination.
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Some more alliums today (hope they are not misnamed)
1. Allium pskemense
2. Allium myranthum
3. Allium senescens
4. Allium paniculatum (in the evening sun, as my camera doesn't seem to like the heat and bright sunshine we have been having for 5 weeks running)
Oleg, all look correct. May I ask, what is your source on Allium myrianthum, this is a rarely encountered species, and a delightful one based on your photograph, love the reddish-purple pedicels and open clean white flowers. It has a wide distribution in Turkey to Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, and Libya (Cyrenaica). How tall does it grow; in the Flora of Turkey it is listed as growing 30-150 cm tall, that's quite a range. It is said to be related to A. convallarioides, which has fistular leaves; are the leaves fistular, but semicylindrical-canaliculate in cross-section like A. convallarioides is? Do you know if this species is hardy?
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I have some more pics taken this week. I think they are,
Allium paniculatum subsp. fuscum
Allium guttatum subsp. guttatum.
Ibrahim, great shots of Allium paniculatum ssp. fuscum, really shows the disposition of the flowers and the turning-stiffly-upright seed capsules. And it's great to see a closeup shot of Allium guttatum ssp. guttatum, with those green orbicular dots on the tepals, such a trademark identifier. The bulb view is interesting too, because we see a bulb scale in progress of splitting off, and a small bulge in the stem just above the bulb, which is surely a bulblet. Excellent instructional photos! Is this also a Turkish form of the species?
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Hello Mark, at first thank you very much for your help. Here is my native Allium list. Quite lots! It is still very hard for me (province Istanbul anf Kırklareli NW. corner of TR.)
Allium amethystinum
Allium atropurpureum
Allium atroviolaceum
Allium carinatum subsp. pulchellum
Allium cepa
Allium commutatum
Allium cyrilli
Allium flavum subsp. flavum var. flavum
Allium flavum subsp. flavum var. minus
Allium flavum subsp. tauricum var. tauricum
Allium guttatum subsp. dalmaticum
Allium guttatum subsp. guttatum
Allium guttatum subsp. sardoum
Allium jubatum
Allium myrianthum var. floribus albidis
Allium moschatum
Allium neapolitanum
Allium nigrum
Allium olympicum
Allium pallens subsp. pallens
Allium paniculatum subsp. fuscum
Allium paniculatum subsp. paniculatum
Allium paniculatum subsp. villosulum
Allium peroninianum
Allium porrum
Allium proponticum subsp. proponticum
Allium rhodopeum subsp. turcicum
Allium roseum
Allium rubellum
Allium scorodoprasum subsp. scorodoprasum
Allium scorodoprasum subsp. rotundum
Allium sibthorpianum
Allium sphaerocephalon subsp. sphaerocephalon
Allium stamineum
Allium triquetrum
Allium vineale
Allium wiedemannianum
My all pictures taken from wild last week. But not with a onionman eye! I did not know to take my scale with me!
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Allium listera is one of a small handful of Chinese species with hosta-like leaves, quite remarkably so in this species. I grow three clones, all collected by Darrell Probst in China, two of which flowered this year side-by-side. I've grown these a number of years, and it proves to be a most unique, attractive, and hardy Allium for the semi-shady bed. I upload 10 photos showing the progression from early leaf emergence to flowering. Normally flowering takes place in latest July to mid August, but this year we are 2-3 weeks earlier than normal.
Early leaf emergence shows off the different clones well, my original plant is the one with ruddy reddish foliage in spring, looking rather odd with fleshy shiny leaves, but robust and more leaves than the second clone... the leaves eventually turning green but larger than the other... the second clone was green and looking altogether normal, smaller and narrower in shape. The second clone started flowering about 2 weeks earlier than my original more robust form, but there is some cross-over in bloom time.
This year, it has been so desperately hot and dry, that the leaves started drying off as the flowers appeared, something nor experienced before, normally the leaves are in good green hosta form as the flowers open. The smaller form did not set any seed, it was near 99 F (37 C) when the flowers were blooming, too soon to tell if the later more robust form will set seed this year.
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Mark, It's a pleasure to have such a profound allium expert like you in the forum. Thanks for the confirmation.
I bought Allium myrianthum from Norman Stevens (Cambridge bulbs) in 2005. It has been growing in the open garden here in Moscow (zone 3) ever since, so it would sure be hardy for you. It is about 50 cm tall. The flowerhead is not that big but the combination of red-purple and white is really stunning. It doesn't flower for me every year (wet summers can be the reason) and has never set seed. Granted this extremely hot summer here with + 30-35 for already a month and no rain, I hope to have seed. Will look at the leaves later if they are still intact.
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Some of the (too) few Alliums in my garden:
Allium christophii
A. carinatum ssp pulchellum
A. stipitatum 'Mount Everest'
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I like your pictures of HUGE Alliums against the sky, Thomas :) :) :)
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Thanks Roma :)
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Some of the (too) few Alliums in my garden:
Allium christophii
A. carinatum ssp pulchellum
A. stipitatum 'Mount Everest'
Thomas, nice "artistic" shots of your flowering onions! I envision your lying on the ground to take those skyward shots, particularly on the lower Allium pulchellum. I see that you labeled you A. carinatum ssp. pulchellum as forma lintoflorum, as you have so beautifully illustrated before in this thread: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4929.msg133682#msg133682
but seeing that the finely formed inflorescences of your recent photos are devoid of random lint, these surely cannot be Allium carinatum ssp. pulchellum forma lintoflorum, but just the straight species, A. carinatum ssp. pulchellum ;D ;D Well done!
Last year a variegated Allium appeared in my garden; well actually, two variegated Allium seedlings appeared, both were eaten by rabbits (what nonsense that growing alliums will keep vermin like rabbits away). Only one reappeared this year, and it turned out to be a variegated form of A. carinatum ssp. pulchellum, now in flower with typical purple flowers! At this point, the leaves are dried (HOT & DRY this year) leaving only the bare stem, and now the flowers, but even the stem is variegated, half white, half green, slowly turning or spiraling slightly as it rises. All attempts to photograph this skinny wisp of a plant have failed to show the variegation properly, maybe when or IF it bulks up, I can get a better pic.
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A couple more views of Allium carinatum ssp. pulchellum... one thinks of there being the white and purple forms, but there are many shades of lilac-purple between. I just love the form of this species, always showy and playful, even in early flower emergence as the silvery veined bud-spathes split with arching pedicels spilling outwards. To compare, the species (Allium carinatum) was first named for the bulbilliferous phase. I tolerate this species, it is amusing and mildly ornamental, but when the many inflorescence-borne bulbils get ready to drop (as they are now), I cut and bag the flower/bulb heads... but no fear, invariably I miss some bulbils, and more always come back and spread. I also show the related A. oleraceum, found throughout most of Europe and even North Africa, my coppery-colored form from Morocco. Again, the flower heads should be cut off and bagged, to avoid too many unwanted young plants.
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Thanks for your comments, Mark. Will relabel my plant to Allium carinatum ssp pulchellum!
So far I don't see any bulbs on my flowerheads. Do they form after the flowers fade?
Will be happy to get some more bulbs from this wonderful plant.
Good luck with your variegated form!
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So far I don't see any bulbs on my flowerheads. Do they form after the flowers fade?
No, if there were bulbils in the flower head, they'd be there the same time as the flowers and you'd see them. Also, if there were bulbils in the flower head, it would be A. carinatum.
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OK - but do they form bulbils around the main bulb or do they only increasy by seed?
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OK - but do they form bulbils around the main bulb or do they only increasy by seed?
Thomas, in my experience A. carinatum ssp. pulchellum is not gregarious with bulblet production around the parent bulb, the bulbs tend to slowly divide, but never bulk up into big clumps, not even as fast as Allium flavum can bulk up into a fine clump. They are primarily increased by seed.
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Here is my native Allium list. Quite lots! It is still very hard for me (province Istanbul anf Kırklareli NW. corner of TR.)
[McMark: list trimmed down to just a few species to discuss]
Allium flavum subsp. flavum var. minus
Allium jubatum
Allium paniculatum subsp. villosulum
Allium peroninianum
Allium rhodopeum subsp. turcicum
Allium wiedemannianum
Ibrahim, that's an impressive list of species you are growing that grow in your native area. I narrowed down you list to a few I want to comment on.
I once grew Allium flavum subsp. flavum var. minus from the MacPhail & Watson Expedition to Turkey back in the 1970s; it was unlike any form of "minus" that goes around in the seed exchanges, this was a true dwarf, with fat stubby stem to 5-6 cm tall, and waxy yellows flowers tinged olive green, with purple stamens. It was a difficult slow grower and eventually died. :'(
Brian Mathew, in his "A Review of Allium section Allium", describes the flowers of Allium jubatum, based on a plant grown at Kew, as "smelling of dung", but adds that he's not sure how consistent this feature is within the species as a whole. Looks like it would be a good allium similar to a small A. rotundum.
On Allium paniculatum subsp. villosulum, I've always wanted to see the villous form of this widespread species.
Allium peroninianum is a section Bevispatha Allium, along the lines of A. cupanii. From the same Mac&W collection, I grew for nearly 25 years A. cupanii ssp. hirtovaginatum, but sadly lost it dues to encroachment by weeds in some years of garden neglect. Interesting little surprise summer bloomers, aren't they. I've not seen peroninianum.
Janis Ruksans showed me a photograph of Allium rhodopeum subsp. turcicum, a species he once grew, what a charmer that one is... it is one that should get into general horticulture.
And last, Allium wiedemannianum is another in that confusing group of small purplish-mauve alliums from Turkey, all delightful miniature species.
Thanks for sharing your photos and enthusiasm for your native Turkish Alliums, there are lots of them in Turkey, perhaps 150 or more species. We welcome seeing any others that you might find in your travels or those that are flowering in the garden.
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If you have time for another one I have some better pictures of Magnar's Caucasus-species.
Arisaema, excellent set of diagnostic photos! Isn't this the same Allium that we've seen on this forum before, a large flowering patch of lovely light pink - dark pink striped flowers? I believe it is. Wasn't able to pinpoint an ID on it before, but the detail photos sure help. The difficulty here is that the Caucasus cover a number of regions and several countries, and thus different floras, some of which are not generally accessible, if even they exist. There is some possible species coverage with adjacent countries and their floras (Flora of Turkey, Flora of Iran, Flora of the USSR), but I know for example a number of new species are described in such places as Armenia, and who knows about tghe taxonomic state of affairs in Georgia and Azerbaijan. I'll see what I can come up with; although may forward this to Dr. Reinhard Fritsch and Kurt Vickery to see if it "rings any bells" for either of them.
I too have this one, noticed it last night flowering for the first time (notice the bulbils)
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Mark that was not my growing list!. That was the list of specieses which are growing by itself in my region. Which I have chance to see somewhere around me! But whenever I see this specieses I can share here.
Mark, I have lots of things to profit from your experiences and knowledge on Alliums!.
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The first time I've flowered Allium caeruleum, worth the wait - is this the standard form (with bulbils)?
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Sorry stephen
This is a bad clone
As with A. pulchellum in the nature they have most of the time bulbils
but there are good clones without bulbils
one of my suppliers has a good clone without bulbils
I can send you some in sept if you want
Roland
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The first time I've flowered Allium caeruleum, worth the wait - is this the standard form (with bulbils)?
Stephen, a really good photo, I have never seen a form of A. caeruleum with so many bulbils, the form typically in cultivation from Dutch bulb suppliers will have just a few little bulbils in a head of mostly flowers. The red bulbils contrasting with the intense blue, are rather pretty, although perhaps not as nice as a fully floriferous one. The only form of A. caeruleum that I've grown that has no bulbils is the one I've shown before, a form from Denver Botanic Garden; I call it the "DBG form" although that is only my unofficial name given to this extra fine form.
This year it got so hot and dry, that most plants went into early dormancy, so only one bulb actually flowered (photo uploaded). It set no seed. But this form is also somewhat unique in producing more basal bulblets than other forms I've grown, and I've harvested many of these to try to find other spots in the garden where it will grow happily... thus far, it has only prospered in one of many locations tried. Photos 2 & 3 show a bounty of bulblets collected from around the mother bulb and among the bulbcoat or tunics at the base of the stem just above the bulbs.
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Thanks, Roland. Yes, although the contrast in colour between the bulbils and flowers is nice, I wondered if this would be a potential weedy Allium - I have both forms of pulchellum and have to keep a close eye on the form with bulbils...
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Thanks Mark for your comments. Does my plant have darker coloured flowers than normal or is yours paler?
Are there other Alliums that produce so many basal bulblets - can't say I've seen this on any of mine...
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Thanks Mark for your comments. Does my plant have darker coloured flowers than normal or is yours paler?
Are there other Alliums that produce so many basal bulblets - can't say I've seen this on any of mine...
I believe my plant (the DBG Allium caeruleum) has medium blue flowers, whereas yours and the forms I have encountered before, have darker blue flowers. Save me a few of those red bulbils, I'd like to give that form a try :D In my experience with Allium caeruleum, the forms with a few bulbils, I don't think I have ever seen a self-propagated plant from a bulbil, this species invariably dies out after a couple seasons, whereas the DBG form has been with me for the last 3 seasons so far, so that's a positive sign. On the other hand, I fully concur, that the bulbilliferous Allium carinatum is one that must be closely watched or not grown at all, to avoid its invasive increase by spilled/dropped bulbils.
Other Allium species that can produce many basal bulblets are in Allium section Allium, though I have found the ones I have grown in that section, like A. rotundum, never to be a problem in my dry garden (in fact, I have lost A. rotundum). I once grew (1980-1982) a splendid form of Allium caesium, a tall, large-flowered powder blue form, which produced buckets of "rollers"... bulblets at or above the basal stem. Wish I still had this marvelous form, as even though it made so many surface bulblets, in a dryish garden they rarely meet with re-vegetating success, and I have never encountered such a fantastic form in 3 decades since.
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No problem, I'll save some bulbils for you :)
I'd forgotten that Allium scorodoprasum has bulblets as does some forms of Allium ampeloprasum,a lthough not many.
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What about the famous Hair
at least 100 bulbils in the flower head
must be a weed but sells as the devil
although I warn everybody
Roland
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What about the famous Hair
at least 100 bulbils in the flower head
must be a weed but sells as the devil
although I warn everybody
Roland
Roland, I'm glad you mentioned Allium 'Hair'... if ever there was a silly plant selection, this is it! Researching this thing on the web, it is attributed both to Allium vineale (the bulbilliferous Crow Garlic) and to a bulbilliferous form of Allium sphaerocephalon (var. bulbilliferum). Judging from the photos I've seen, I would say it is Allium sphaerocephalon var. bulbilliferum, and not Allium vineale as attributed by so many nurseries. Selling a totally bulbilliferous form of the invasive noxious weed like Allium vineale seems a questionable practice; if indeed 'Hair' is Allium sphaerocephalon var. bulbilliferum, the practice is not as egregious, although since there is no mention in any of the sales information I've seen, that all of those hairy "flowers" will drop off and root, most likely to become a nuisance and an invasive threat, the sale of this plant is still questionable.
Judging from the origin of this variety, supposedly found in a field of cultivated Alliums by a Dutch grower, it is highly unlikely it would be A. vineale as it is not mass produced, whereas A. sphaerocephalon is. One web site describes it thusly: Something of a novelty, the Dutch grower named this for the green, tendril-like extrusions on the flowerhead. Already proving popular with flower arrangers & gardeners who like something a little different.
Coincidentally, found a web page showing both subject species; a fine photo of Allium caeruleum, and one of Allium 'Hair'.
http://awaytogarden.com/allium-oddballs-a-azureum-and-a-hair
The hilarious part is reading though various web site, seeing the salesmanship "lingo" (language), and other sites describing the "flowers"; apparently not understanding what they're looking at; here's a sampling:
will produce unique hairy flowers
the blooms are pleasantly fragrant
this plant is an easy and prolific addition to the garden
nothing short of extraordinary
its whispy blooms stand out all around the flowerhead
fragrance: scented leaves, habit: erect, spreading
'Hair' is a dramatic and unusual new allium with long, green (purple in the middle), hair-like petals in summer followed by decorative seed heads
::)
I found one web site that described Allium 'Hair' as... a butt-ugly cultivar. ;D
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Interesting post on Hair, Mark - this one has puzzled me for some time.
I think I first saw this at the Hampden Court Flower Show in London a few years back - I can actually date it pretty exactly as it was the day of the London bombings (7th July 2005). I had arrived at Heathrow early morning and the Underground station was just closing due to a major incident in London and was diverted to a double decker bus. I rang my Mum to say that I'd arrived safely and asked if she knew what the major incident was - I told her that I was going to take a bus. As we travelled across London, the bus was twice searched by security personnel. Spent a pleasant day at Hampden Court oblivious of what had happened. The mobile network was down most of the day, my mum and my family in Norway were really worried.... Anyway, I digress.
The first picture shows Hair at Hampden Court. At about the same time I had purchased a packet of Hair bulbils at RHS Wisley. It was accredited to Allium oleraceum and I remember that the packet assured the buyer that it wasn't as invasive as the species (I had spent 4 or 5 years clearing a bed of this thug prior to that). Well, I let RHS convince me to plant it and it was pretty invasive (if I hadn't decapitated it, it would have been as bad as the species). In fact, it could well have been the species as it didn't even have the Hairy appearance....
I then saw it in a garden in Northern Norway last spring (second picture) - she who was growing it had it as Allium vineale Hair.... She gave me a couple of bulbils but they didn't make it through the winter, so I was unable to check if it was vineale or oleraceum. I was therefore surprised to see that you have it as Allium sphaerocephalon (NB! The RHS Plant Finder now has it as vineale: http://apps.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantfinder2.asp?crit=allium+and+hair&Genus=Allium (http://apps.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantfinder2.asp?crit=allium+and+hair&Genus=Allium) )
To add to the confusion, I had actually also obtained Allium sphaerocephalon Hair via the SRGC seed exchange and I planted these in the garden last autumn (curious to see if there were more than one Hair doing the rounds!). This one wasn't very hairy either and I also decided it was either vineale or oleraceum but never got round to checking it ( I removed the flower head to stop the bulbils spilling).
I wonder if the hairiness perhaps depends on some environmental or growing conditions, mine being close to "bald" (they get little or no fertiliser, so perhaps that's why?).
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I've been going through my Allium pictures taken over the last few weeks, so here's the first. A plant I received from two sources in Tromsø last summer as Allium cyanthus (not valid name) and it's not Allium cyaneum. A form of sikkimense I presume?
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Could this be beesianum (I got it as this some years ago)?
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This one came from Sergey Banketov in the Caucasus as Allium rotundum (wild seed), sowed spring 2007:
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Just a few pictures:
1 Allium validum
2 Allium ochotense (victorialis) with Phormium Bronze
3 Allium aflatunense in the background behind Camassia Cusickii Zwanenburg
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Can someone help by the identification of this Allium?
Grows "wild" in a agriculture/horticulture school garden of a university. No label. Flowers now.
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Can someone help by the identification of this Allium?
Grows "wild" in a agriculture/horticulture school garden of a university. No label. Flowers now.
Uli, that's the American Allium stellatum. There is also a possibility it is an Allium stellatum hybrid, I have many such creatures, but those plants look consistent with plants of Allium stellatum that I grow.
Allium stellatum, a species closely allied to A. cernuum, is highly variable. I have many forms of this plant, collected from a number of spots in midwestern USA to southern Canadian provinces, to a few eastern USA representatives. There seems to be a couple basic themes; 1) the earlier flowering forms that start blooming in mid July and August, tending to be white and light pink colors, tallish and slender in growth, and more gregarious and growing into modest clumps, and... 2) late blooming forms (Sept-Oct, or even flowering into November), the later ones tending to be dark rich pink, and not gregarious growing, preferring instead to grow as single bulbs or sometimes paired bulbs. There are both tall and dwarf forms of A. stellatum.
Diagnostic characteristics for A. stellatum (as compared to Allium cernuum):
- very narrow, almost minimal foliage, whereas Allium cernuum typically has much broader more substantial foliage.
- buds that can nod, as in A. cernuum, but typically open into sideways sprays, or in semi-erect umbels (see photo).
- seed pods are typically dark colored, reddish to deep brownish-red in the deep color flower forms. This is not recorded as a species
characteristic, but I find it to be a reliable feature.
- flowers later than cernuum; there can be some overlap with late flowering (July) cernuum plants, and early stellatum plants.
- dimorphic flowers, three spreading outer tepals and three erect inner tepals. Tepals are connivent (folding inwards) making the
flowers look very star-like. Note: some A. cernuum forms break form and instead of campanulate bells, exhibits dimophic tepals.
- both A. cernuum and A. stellatum have crested ovaries, most apparent as the seed capsule develops, with 3 horn-like protrusions.
I have found that the earlier flowered forms of A. stellatum will hybridize with other Allium species, probably because they are flowering at the same time, whereas I have not seen evidence of A. stellatum hybrids with the late dark pink forms, probably because much fewer Alliums are in bloom then.
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Mark,
great explanation. We discuss wether it is a A. cernuum or not. But it flowers later than A. cernuum does normally.
Thank you.
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I see that John Richards has a couple of onions in his most recent Diary.....
http://www.alpinegardensociety.net/diaries/Northumberland/+August+/293/
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I see that John Richards has a couple of onions in his most recent Diary.....
http://www.alpinegardensociety.net/diaries/Northumberland/+August+/293/
Thanks Maggi for bringing this to this thread's attention:
Allow me to comment on those two onions. John wrote "There are a few corrections to make, I find. For instance, the very reliable but somewhat uncharismatic small onion Bob and Rannveig Wallis passed on to me some summers back (I think it is one of their introductions) came as A. tauricola, although in 2007 I mentioned it incorrectly as A. tauricum. However, according to Brian Mathew and Turhan Baytop's book 'Bulbous plants of Turkey' A. 'tauricolum' (an incorrect form) is a synonym for A. chlorurum. Either way, it is clearly at the very least closely related to the more familiar A. callimischon (which I featured from Crete last autumn), but flowering in early August, not late October".
Actually, the reverse situation is true. Allium tauricolum (note: species spelling is disputed between tauricolum and tauricola), has as one of its synonyms, Allium "chlorurum". In Nomenclator Alliorum - Allium names and synonyms - a World Guide, 1998, which includes Brian Mathew as one of the 5 collaborating authors, cite it thusly: Allium tauricolum Boiss. [-cola], then under A. chlorurum, under "accepted names for synonyms" they write: = tauricolum.
The form in cultivation was, I believe, introduced by the MacPhail & Watson expedition to Turkey in the 1970s, Mac&W 5802. I bought a seed share and grew this allium, for which I applied an identification of A. tauricola (species spelling as listed in Flora of Turkey), a very easy species to identify as it has lavender flowers uniquely edged in white.
The second photo in the Alpine Gardener's Diary shows a small deep blue Allium that is most likely not A. beesianum as labeled, based upon the apparent small size of the flowers, but is more likely to be A. sikkimense.
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Thank you, McMark.
about this :Either way, it is clearly at the very least closely related to the more familiar A. callimischon
.... can you tell me how close a relationship there might between the first of John's onions and A. callimischon?
I confess to getting my onions well and truly stewed.... :-\
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Thank you, McMark.
about this :Either way, it is clearly at the very least closely related to the more familiar A. callimischon
.... can you tell me how close a relationship there might between the first of John's onions and A. callimischon?
I confess to getting my onions well and truly stewed.... :-\
Well, there is a superficial resemblance, but Allium callimischon is in Allium section Brevispatha, and Allium tauricolum is in Allium section Codonoprasum, so they're not really closely related (it's just that these dang little onions all look alike ;D ::)). The growth behavior of section Brevispatha is very distinct, with the bud spathe so slender, that it is barely discernible from the flower stem. It also contains species, like callimischon, callidictyon, and cupani, that produce leaves and a flower stem with the near invisible bud spathe, the leaves go dormant and dry up, leaving only the little naked spear-like stems, then later in summer, almost like magic, expand to release few-flowered sprays of tiny flowers. I grew A. cupani ssp. hirtovaginatum from the MacPhail & Watson expedition for almost 30 years before eventually losing it just a few years ago.
With the heat we've been having, I'm surprised I don't have stewed onions myself ;D 91 F (33 C) again today, part of the day spent at my neighbors in-ground pool.
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Thanks again.... I had an inkling the two might be more distant than John supposed.
While you were having your ten minute rainstorm the other night, we had almost an hour of thunder and lightning with the heaviest rain I can remember for many years ... it was truly torrential.... I thought of your parched soil at the time (it gave me something to think about as I tried to crawl under the bed to hide)
I'm surprised your neighbour's pool hasn't had all its water evaporate in the heat you've been having.... were you over there to swim and soak or had you a cunning plan to pipe off the water........ ;)
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... Allium tauricolum (note: species spelling is disputed between tauricolum and tauricola) ...
... A. tauricola (species spelling as listed in Flora of Turkey) ...
All very interesting, thanks Mark for unravelling this confusion.
Kew goes with Flora of Turkey and has A tauricola as the correct spelling
Allium tauricola (http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do?accepted_id=296761&repSynonym_id=-9998&name_id=296761&status=true)
and A chlorurum as a synonym
Allium chlorurum (http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do?accepted_id=296761&repSynonym_id=-9998&name_id=295297&status=false)
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It seems that tauricola is the correct form.... I was interested to read John Richards' explanation of that....http://www.alpinegardensociety.net/discussion/northumberland/Diary+th+August+/426/
"Thank you Margaret for helping to clarify this one. Regarding as I do Brian Mathew as close to God with respect to anything bulbous, I had assumed he was right in saying that Allium tauricola was correctly known as A. chlorurum, but even Homer nods I guess. If we can stay with the Classics for a second, perhaps I can share the benefit of an expensive and in this case not entirely wasted education by noting that when an epithet is ......-icola (meaning to inhabit), it always takes this form, whatever the ending of the genus, hence Allium tauricola, not A. tauricolum. I think the reason is that the word ....-icola is a noun in apposition, not an adjective, and is first declension feminine for some reason.
As for the little blue onion, several of my books have this plant with pendent larger flowers as the Chinese A. beesianum, the Himalayan A. sikkimense having smaller erect flowers. I myself couldn't possibly comment as I received it as A. caeruleum (which it certainly ain't!)." JR.
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It seems that tauricola is the correct form.... I was interested to read John Richards' explanation of that....http://www.alpinegardensociety.net/discussion/northumberland/Diary+th+August+/426/
"Thank you Margaret for helping to clarify this one. Regarding as I do Brian Mathew as close to God with respect to anything bulbous, I had assumed he was right in saying that Allium tauricola was correctly known as A. chlorurum, but even Homer nods I guess. If we can stay with the Classics for a second, perhaps I can share the benefit of an expensive and in this case not entirely wasted education by noting that when an epithet is ......-icola (meaning to inhabit), it always takes this form, whatever the ending of the genus, hence Allium tauricola, not A. tauricolum. I think the reason is that the word ....-icola is a noun in apposition, not an adjective, and is first declension feminine for some reason.
As for the little blue onion, several of my books have this plant with pendent larger flowers as the Chinese A. beesianum, the Himalayan A. sikkimense having smaller erect flowers. I myself couldn't possibly comment as I received it as A. caeruleum (which it certainly ain't!)." JR.
Thanks Maggi, for the follow-up posting. Glad that the original name, Allium tauricola, is the correct or preferred spelling (as per Flora of Turkey)... I had not noticed the "alternate" spelling of tauricolum until your posting of John Richards' allium entry, then found both names listed (as if both were accepted), in the recent "Nomenclature Alliorum - Allium names and synonyms - a World Guide", of which Brian Mathew is one of the 5 collaborating authors.
It reminds me of an entry in Brian Mathew's monograph "A Review of Allium Section Allium", under the entry for Allium sphaerocephalon, Brian Mathew writes "The specific epithet is often spelled sphaerocephalum but, as pointed out by Stearn in Ann. Mus. Goulandris 4:181(1978), Linnaeus originally used the ending -on which is an equally correct form of the spelling". After stating this fact, Mr. Mathew then uses the -on spelling consistently, as it is most often seen. Regarding A. tauricola, it seems that deference is paid to the fact both spellings are recognized (otherwise it would have not been specially noted as such in Nomenclature Alliorum) although one is preferred over the other.
Regarding Allium beesianum & sikkimense, I'll repeat the only tried and true way to tell the two apart in the Flora of China (FOC) keys, and that is of tepal length. The disposition of the flowers is not noted in either species, although the drawings of both species in FOC show erect flowers, but it should be noted that the FOC drawings for many genera are "stylized" representations in my opinion). In my experience, the flowers are typically pendant in both species, although I've grown pendant, semi-erect and erect forms of A. sikkimense, but I only have experience with one form of A. beesianum, which was pendant. The 4 photos of Allium sikkimense in FOC all show pendant inflorescences...I repeat the links here for expediency. So, whatever is the actual length of the tepals on John Richards' blue allium, will determine whether it better fits Allium beesianum or Allium sikkimense; the inflorescence disposition is not relevant to the keys.
And then we move on to the fact, there are many plants that are collected in China, that defy the keys and present themselves as taxonomic enigmas, such as the blue allium that Stephen posted, which I shall move on to next.
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.315
Tepals 6-10 mm........................ Allium sikkimense
Tepals 11-14 (17) mm.................. Allium beesianum
Here are 4 links to Allium sikkimense photos in FOC of plants in the wild, each show pendant flowers.
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=87660&flora_id=800
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=87661&flora_id=800
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=87662&flora_id=800
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=87663&flora_id=800
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Mark;
Any idea what this Chinese species might be? It's about 50cm tall, and everything is triangular: leaves, scape, pedicels... Thin and slender bulb like most Chinese species, cannot remember what the tunic looked like unfortunately. Leaves are 1,5cm wide, can get the rest of the measurements if you need them :)
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Mark;
Any idea what this Chinese species might be? It's about 50cm tall, and everything is triangular: leaves, scape, pedicels... Thin and slender bulb like most Chinese species, cannot remember what the tunic looked like unfortunately. Leaves are 1,5cm wide, can get the rest of the measurements if you need them :)
This is Allium wallichii var. wallichii. There are two varieties, var. wallichii and var. platyphyllum; yours is var. wallichii.
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200027548
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This one came from Sergey Banketov in the Caucasus as Allium rotundum (wild seed), sowed spring 2007:
Stephen, an interesting onion. I've gone through the keys in Mathew's A Review of Allium Section Allium. Even without knowing the bulb characteristics, I think I can narrow down the species, although will ask you to provide the following: with (in mm) of the leaves, are the leaves smooth edged or minutely scabrid (do the "feel" test). That being said, I always repeat my mantra that keying species in the look-alike Allium section Allium is *very difficult*. Knowing the provenance of the plant helps immensely.
I have it narrowed the following possibilities in order of likelihood: A. ponticum, A. rotundum ssp. jajlae, A. macrochaetum. I notice the heads are looser than is typical for A. rotundum, and the flower color would rule out typical rotundum although could fit for the pinkish-violet A. rotundum ssp. jajlae. For me however, it comes closest to Allium ponticum.
A species put into synonymy with the Caucasian A. ponticum is A. gracilescens, only separated from A. ponticum by the reputed lighter rose color, although the synonymy of that species seems to be subject to further study. If ponticum and gracilescens are found to be conspecific, then A. gracilescens would take priority. Brian Mathew says of Allium ponticum "clearly very closely allied to A. rotundum and further studies are desirable in order to ascertain whether the two can be satisfactorily distinguished".
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I am not quite sure if these pics are 'Allium' or 'Wildlife'
Anyway three pics of A. ovalifolium.
Cheers
Göte
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Stephan, an interesting onion. I've gone through the keys in Mathew's A Review of Allium Section Allium. Even without knowing the bulb characteristics, I think I can narrow down the species, although will ask you to provide the following: with (in mm) of the leaves, are the leaves smooth edged or minutely scabrid (do the "feel" test). That being said, I always repeat my mantra that keying species in the lool-alike Allium section Allium is *very difficult*. Knowing the provenance of the plant helps immensely.
Thanks for having a look at this one for me! The leaves are about 4-5 mm wide and through a magnifying glass I can indeed see minute widely spaced hair like structures on the edge.
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The last of my Alliums this year.
Allium senescens montanum ssp. glaucum
The first photo was taken in the shade as it produced a better photo.
Graham
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I am not quite sure if these pics are 'Allium' or 'Wildlife'
Anyway three pics of A. ovalifolium.
Cheers
Göte
Nice to see your ovalifoliums survived last winter!
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This one came from Sergey Banketov in the Caucasus as Allium rotundum (wild seed), sowed spring 2007:
I have it narrowed the following possibilities in order of likelihood: A. ponticum, A. rotundum ssp. jajlae, A. macrochaetum. I notice the heads are looser than is typical for A. rotundum, and the flower color would rule out typical rotundum although could fit for the pinkish-violet A. rotundum ssp. jajlae. For me however, it comes closest to Allium ponticum.
Hi again, Mark
I was a bit surprised you mentioned jajlae as a possible candidate for my "Allium rotundum". I have two other plants which I received as Allium scorodoprasum spp jajlae (pictures 1 to 5) and Allium scorodoprasum ssp rotundum (6 to 8) and both have very compact flower heads (unlike my other "rotundum")
Picture 9 shows the two together today (rotundum on the left and jajlae on the right).
Picture 10 shows one of my A. scorodoprasum ssp scorodoprasum plants which has formed abnormally large bulbils.
So, what do I have? I reckon they are the same. How do you separate rotundum and jajlae?
Thanks in advance.
Stephen
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Hi again, Mark
I was a bit surprised you mentioned jajlae as a possible candidate for my "Allium rotundum". I have two other plants which I received as Allium scorodoprasum spp jajlae (pictures 1 to 5) and Allium scorodoprasum ssp rotundum (6 to 8) and both have very compact flower heads (unlike my other "rotundum")
Picture 9 shows the two together today (rotundum on the left and jajlae on the right).
Picture 10 shows one of my A. scorodoprasum ssp scorodoprasum plants which has formed abnormally large bulbils.
So, what do I have? I reckon they are the same. How do you separate rotundum and jajlae?
Thanks in advance.
Stephen
Stephen, regarding rotundum, it does stand as it's own species separate from A. scorodoprasum, treated as such by none other than Brian Mathew in his A Review of Allium Section Allium. Yes, both A. rotundum and A. rotundum ssp. jajlae typically have tight "drumstick" heads of bloom, so as I noted on your mystery "Caucasus rotundum" it looks more open and loose flowered than typical. Of course, it could be that our collective impression on A. rotundum is based on one or two clones widely mass-produced in cultivation, and the true range of the variability of a species is much greater than we imagine, as we saw with A. cristophii and karataviense earlier in this thread.
The difference between A. rotundum ssp. rotundum, ssp. jajlae, and ssp. waldsteinii, is totally based on color of the tepals, which I'm always highly suspicious of, as color rarely seems a good taxonomic determinant characteristic solely on its own. Be that as it may, ssp. rotundum has outer tepals deep purple and inner tepals paler and with white margin, ssp. jajlae is uniformly pink or pinkish violet, and ssp. waldsteinii is uniformly dark purple throughout.
I still think your mystery rotundum might be A. ponticum. The two you just showed, rotundum ssp. jajlae looks correct, your rotundum is at late anthesis so it's hard to tell, could also be ssp. jajlae... doesn't look dark enough to be rotundum. Plants I grew as A. rotundum were typically a very deep red-purple color... an old pic uploaded to show my plants (which I'm embarrassed to admit I have lost!).
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Göte, your Allium ovalifolium plants look very healthy and happy, growing more robustly than my single bulb, which remains a single bulb after 7 years, and never sets seed >:(. What is the source of your form? The foliage on your plants also looks much more robust than on mine. What sort of soil and light conditions is it growing in? You're right about the "wildlife", my allium garden is quite literally "abuzz" with thousands of bees, wasps, and butterflies.
Graham, that's a handsome short-leaved form of A. senescens ssp. glaucum; I'm surprised yours is flowering so early! Here it is typically a September blooming plant. This species is widely variable in cultivation, as most are seed grown, and since it hybridizes readily, you can get all sorts of plants and forms.
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Could this be beesianum (I got it as this some years ago)?
Hi Stephen, it could be A. beesianum... what's the length of the tepals? Hopefully the length is still measurable, you posted this 12 days ago and I've been very slow in replying. If the tepals are 11-17 mm, then it'll match the characteristic for A. beesianum, if 10 mm or shorter, it'll key to sikkimense.
Link to your photo as a reminder of what we're discussing:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg162471#msg162471
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I've been going through my Allium pictures taken over the last few weeks, so here's the first. A plant I received from two sources in Tromsø last summer as Allium cyanthus (not valid name) and it's not Allium cyaneum. A form of sikkimense I presume?
Stephen, the blue Allium you show (with invalid name of A. "cyanthus") is truly an enigma, and a classic example of how the Allium treatment in Flora of China does not come close to adequately describing and identifying Allium material from China. It probably does indeed come closest to a form of A. sikkimense, or even A. beesianum if the tepals are very long, but those long sharply acute tepals are completely unique and not at all like sikkimense or beesianum, never seen anything quite like it (seed: hint hint). Is it possible to find out any further information about the source or provenance of this unique form?
Since I'm late responding to this, to give context, here is the link to the original posting:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg162470#msg162470
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Could this be beesianum (I got it as this some years ago)?
Hi Stephen, it could be A. beesianum... what's the length of the tepals? Hopefully the length is still measurable, you posted this 12 days ago and I've been very slow in replying. If the tepals are 11-17 mm, then it'll match the characteristic for A. beesianum, if 10 mm or shorter, it'll key to sikkimense.
Link to your photo as a reminder of what we're discussing:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg162471#msg162471
9mm is the most I can stretch it to, so sikkimense it seems! Thanks....
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I've been going through my Allium pictures taken over the last few weeks, so here's the first. A plant I received from two sources in Tromsø last summer as Allium cyanthus (not valid name) and it's not Allium cyaneum. A form of sikkimense I presume?
Stephen, the blue Allium you show (with invalid name of A. "cyanthus") is truly an enigma, and a classic example of how the Allium treatment in Flora of China does not come close to adequately describing and identifying Allium material from China. It probably does indeed come closest to a form of A. sikkimense, or even A. beesianum if the tepals are very long, but those long sharply acute tepals are completely unique and not at all like sikkimense or beesianum, never seen anything quite like it (seed: hint hint). Is it possible to find out any further information about the source or provenance of this unique form?
Since I'm late responding to this, to give context, here is the link to the original posting:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg162470#msg162470
First, you don't need to apologise for your lateness!!
Yes, the tepals are long - 16mm. I'll contact the Botanics in Tromsø who gave it to me and ask if they have accession data for it. Yes, I'll look out for seed for you! :)
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This is another Allium spp. Ex-Magnar Aspaker, this one from the Carpathian Mountains. It flowered for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I wondered if it could be Allium ericetorum - it is very similar. I have ericetorum in a different part of the garden, but it is only just coming into flower.
Pictures 1 to 4 are the mystery plant
5-6 are my Allium ericetorum (the first picture taken yesterday, the second from last year) - notice the long bract missing from the mystery plant.
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This is another Allium spp. Ex-Magnar Aspaker, this one from the Carpathian Mountains. It flowered for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I wondered if it could be Allium ericetorum - it is very similar. I have ericetorum in a different part of the garden, but it is only just coming into flower.
Pictures 1 to 4 are the mystery plant
5-6 are my Allium ericetorum (the first picture taken yesterday, the second from last year) - notice the long bract missing from the mystery plant.
Looks like A. ericetorum to me as well (both forms). I have grown several forms in the past, and all have been somewhat similar. I have since lost my plants. However, I am showing a few photos taken this summer at a friend's garden nearby, where she has A. ericetorum and a nice pink A. saxatile form growing (both originally from me). Her plants are photogenic as they back up to a moss-covered rock outcropping. I'll have to get some pieces of Allium ericetorum back from her.
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The saga of Allium 'Hair' continues (reference my earlier post and Stephenb's detailed response)
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg161721#msg161721
Stephen, such unusual circumstances regarding your arrival at Heathrow and Hampden Court! It is probably best you were unaware of the terrible events at the time. Regarding the display of Allium 'Hair' at Hampden Court, I must say it looks most whimsical. Unusual that it was first attributed to A. oleraceum, but surely that's all been left behind, as a Google search comes up dry on Allium oleraceum 'Hair' and I haven't found links indicating this connection. There are however, a gazillion links ascribing the species to either sphaerocephalon or vineale (almost equally split), and a preponderance of those that make no reference to a species at all. It would be so much easier if such selections arising from a known species, be named to indicate the species... there is a definite trend to name and market such findlings without any species indication, which exacerbates the confusion.
So, once again I spend some time doing an extensive google search on Allium 'Hair', and certain observations soon come to light. First, there is so much misinformation out there, often the same language, the exact same wording, the same misunderstanding and misstatements gets parroted over and over again. Of the numerous sites visited that include photos of Allium 'Hair', 2 or 3 identical photos get re-used all over the place. Looking at the different photos of Allium 'Hair', where different photos could be found, tells me that some items labeled as A.'Hair' are not the same species or entity, obviously confusion reigns. The misinformation out there is getting to the point, that the name 'Hair Allium' is even becoming synonymous with regular Allium vineale! ::)
Stephen, you mention that the hairiness of 'Hair' may depend on the growing environment, and I believe that may be true; sufficient moisture is needed at late anthesis to induce the bulbils to sprout, otherwise in a dry environment the bulbils simply drop with the so-called "hair" unsprouted (hair in this context = bulbils sprouting with leaf shoots). I find it rather surprising, that after visiting perhaps 100 web sites that describe or offer Allium 'Hair', not one (I repeat, NOT ONE) site mentions that the flowers are actually replaced by bulbils (although sometimes a few regular flower buds appear). Only one site out of all those visited, actually mentions that the flowers don't have petals, but are actually leaves (still, no mention of the fact one is looking at bulbils that are sprouting), I have given credit to this ultra rare occurrence below.
So, to finish here, yet another assemblage of URLs depicting the mysterious entity known as Allium 'Hair'. The links demonstrate the misinformation, some are humorous. It seems that the concept of a plant with bulbils in the inflorescence, while very common, sparks a flurry of misunderstanding, with descriptions of "fragrant petals", flowers and seed pods, even though these are nonexistant. It is surprising too, because bulbilliferous alliums, such as "Egyptian Onions" or "Top Onions", have been part of the cultivated onion world for many centuries.
Allium sphaerocephalon 'Hair' (a butt-ugly cultivar)
http://www.paghat.com/alliumhair.html
Allium sphaerocephalon 'Hair'
http://blog.jmmds.com/2009/09/25/ericas-oddballs-the-alliums/
Allium sphaerocephalon 'Hair' (the "hair" looks mint-color enhanced here)
http://thebloomingauction.com/detail.asp?id=153068&n=ALLIUM-HAIR-12-BULBS
...here's a link that says Allium 'Hair' is Allium pulchellum!
http://www.bloomingbulb.com/p-48689-allium-hair.aspx
Allium vineale 'Hair'
http://www.pcnijssen.nl/shop/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=1109
Allium vineale 'Hair'
http://www.trecanna.com/showdetails.asp?id=164
Allium vineale 'Hair'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35817774@N07/3343106630/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35817774@N07/3343106458/
Lots of flower buds in this one:
http://www.botanus.com/products/Allium-%27Hair%27.html
in this photo, one can see the spathe in process of splitting
http://brecks.com/product.asp?pn=67499&sid=704127&eid=&bhcd2=1282516820
why do most sites refer to the unusual "flowers"??? Maybe they are unusual, because they ARE NOT flowers!
More favorite Allium hairations:
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green flowers followed by decorative seed pods
Allium ‘Hair Allium’
hair allium 'hair' - Allium vineale
Allium miniature 'Hair'
http://www.adrbulbs.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/bulbs.plantDetail/plant_id/386/index.htm
...and the winner is, the first site out of a hundred or more looked at that understands these are not petals but are leaves:
http://www.bhg.com/gardening/plant-dictionary/bulb/allium/
Hair' allium - Allium 'Hair' is the most unique allium around. Rather than petals, this plant bears spidery green leaves atop its 18-inch-tall stems in late spring. Zones 4-8
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Thanks for this amusing analysis of the hairy Allium. Enjoyed reading it and all the links! Did you get any clues or change your mind as to which species it actually is. You earlier favoured it as Allium sphaerocephalon var. bulbilliferum. As a reminder this is what you said:
"Researching this thing on the web, it is attributed both to Allium vineale (the bulbilliferous Crow Garlic) and to a bulbilliferous form of Allium sphaerocephalon (var. bulbilliferum). Judging from the photos I've seen, I would say it is Allium sphaerocephalon var. bulbilliferum, and not Allium vineale as attributed by so many nurseries. Selling a totally bulbilliferous form of the invasive noxious weed like Allium vineale seems a questionable practice; if indeed 'Hair' is Allium sphaerocephalon var. bulbilliferum, the practice is not as egregious, although since there is no mention in any of the sales information I've seen, that all of those hairy "flowers" will drop off and root, most likely to become a nuisance and an invasive threat, the sale of this plant is still questionable."
The RHS is the biggest gardening organisation in the UK and in its Plant Finder it gives it as vineale http://apps.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/pfregions.asp?ID=188330 (http://apps.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/pfregions.asp?ID=188330) - yes, surprising that they would encourage planting of a noxious weed. However, Hair was introduced in Europe where it is a native and isn't considered to be an invasive species. It's a different matter of course in the US (convenient then to call it sphaerocephalon!). I've bad experience with planting Allium oleraceum in my garden as it's difficult to eradicate once established and I imagine vineale could also be a problem if left unchecked (similarly the bulbiferous forms of A. carinatum).
As I mentioned earlier I bought my Hair originally from RHS Garden Wisley and it was noted at that time as A. oleraceum and a notice told the customer that this was less of a weed than the species. You can see some pictures of the offspring of my bald Hair from RHS below. It has flowers and bulbils but has very little "Hair" and as Mark notes this could be because I'm growing it on a bed next to the house where it's relatively dry. My plants seem to match vineale (the bulbils are spherical, not pointed as in oleraceum). However, I don't have any information on the differences with the bulbiferous form of sphaerocephalon. I think there are differences in the leaves and leaf sheath but on my plant the leaves have withered (that in itself may point to vineale rather than sphaerocephalon?). I also have sphaerocephalon flowering at the moment and the flowers are somewhat larger than my Hair. I'm assuming here that there is only one Hair...
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A few more white Alliums in flower at the moment including another mystery plant:
1. Allium saxatile album
2. Allium saxatile album together with a mystery plant
3-4. The mystery plant's inflorescence and a leaf cross-section - flattened and with two channels (difficult to see)
5-6. Allium albidum
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Hope I'm not overloading you with Alliums, but here is one more, a small species with distinctive spots on the flowers:
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I've just added 3 pictures of my Allium Hair that's lost its hair above...
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I've just added 3 pictures of my Allium Hair that's lost its hair above...
Stephen, good photos of the post-Hair situation, the heads have more flowers than I would've imagined, and actually not half bad looking too. The one thing I saw looking at many web photos, and as I indicated on at least one URL, is that some look totally bulbilliferous, and others show some degree of floriferousness with flower buds at the ready. I'll have to defer to you, as I have not grown Allium 'Hair'... I've seen the bagged bulbs each fall at nurseries selling Dutch bulbs, but so far it hadn't mustered much of my attention. This year however I will have to get a bag, just to make a determination about what species it might actually be.
After finding web sites split between sphaerocephalon and vineale as being the species, I came to a logical assumption it must be sphaerocephalon (in the var. bulbilliferum form) because I doubt whether regular A. vineale is cultivated as an ornamental under mass-production, as it is not an attractive species with the flower heads largely (and variably) composed of bulbils. On the other hand, Allium sphaerocephalon is mass-produced as an ornamental, and the species can be found in the mostly bulbilliferous form, and when such variants occur, Brian Mathew says it is okay to apply the name "var. bulbilliferum". It seems a more likely situation, to have a field of wholly floriferous A. sphaerocephalon in which a hairy (bulbilliferous) sport was discovered, than for any such fields of A. vineale being grown in the first place, and secondly it would be unlikely to select out a partially or wholly bulbilliferous sport from a field full of partially or wholly bulbilliferous alliums.
So, this fall I will plant 'Hair' in an attempt to clear up this hairy situation, to find out which of the species claims is a bald faced lie ;D ;D
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Hope I'm not overloading you with Alliums, but here is one more, a small species with distinctive spots on the flowers:
Stephen, is this Allium mairei? At first, looking at the spots on the tepals, I'm thinking Allium callimischon ssp. haemostichum, but at second glance I think not (compare with: http://www.desirableplants.com/allium_callimiscion_var_haemostictum.jpg) because the rounded-tepaled flowers and whole morphology is different, the leaves clasp the stem almost to the inflorescence and dry off by flowering time. I do believe it is Allium mairei, the basal foliage matches, as does the few-flowered inflorescence and petal shape.
I include some overexposed photos taken of my plants back in 2007, not very good pics, but the spotting is mostly restricted towards the center of the tepals, but some speckles on the ends of the tepals too, this feature is probably variable.
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Re- Hair: Yes, it certainly makes sense, unless it was just a weed in the sphaerocephalon field? Anyway, glad you are up for the challenge and we'll await your conclusion in the Allium 2011 thread...
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Re-Allium mairei: My notes tell me that I did sow and plant seedlings of Allium mairei amabile at about the same time but in a different part of the garden, so I guess things have got a bit mixed up. I'll do a check myself with the FOC key tonight. Is amabile a recognised variety/ssp? I see in FOC that amabile is a synonym.
Thanks again!
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Allium albidum is a very nice plant :D I didn't know it
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Re-Allium mairei: My notes tell me that I did sow and plant seedlings of Allium mairei amabile at about the same time but in a different part of the garden, so I guess things have got a bit mixed up. I'll do a check myself with the FOC key tonight. Is amabile a recognised variety/ssp? I see in FOC that amabile is a synonym.
Thanks again!
FOC/Allium mairei: Yes, a perfect match as far as I can see...
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A few more white Alliums in flower at the moment including another mystery plant:
1. Allium saxatile album
2. Allium saxatile album together with a mystery plant
3-4. The mystery plant's inflorescence and a leaf cross-section - flattened and with two channels (difficult to see)
5-6. Allium albidum
Reference photos above, at: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg164054#msg164054
Three interesting alliums, with a twist to the mystery. Regarding 5-6, that's a nice form of Allium albidum. It appears to be Allium albidum ssp. albidum, with pedicels 2-3x the tepal length. How tall is your plant in flower? I have grown a number of forms in the past, but only currently have A. albidum ssp. caucasicum in a good compact form, which has shorter pedicels for a more compact head, and with supposedly slightly longer tepals than ssp. albidum. I am showing two poor low-resolution images of A. albidum ssp. caucasicum from 2002 (I lost the original hi-res images). Incidentally, Allium albidum, which is close to Allium angulosum, freely hybridizes with Allium senescens, nutans, angulosum, and other rhizomatous alliums, most seedlings growing much taller and not white-flowered!
The mystery to me, seems to be the reverse of how you've stated it. The Allium "saxatile album" in photos 1-2, I don't know what species it is, but I'd say it is not A. saxatile, whereas your mystery white Allium in photos 3-4 (and including 2) are Allium saxatile. A key characteristic of Allium saxatile is the spathe that splits into two persistent "valves" or sections, one of which is much longer than the other and longer than the inflorescence... this can clearly be seen in your plants. Also, the ovary in Allium saxatile is rather prominent and globose, almost as long as the tepals. I have included a couple links to Todd Boland's photo gallery of Alliums he has grown (he takes excellent photographs), one of a white flowered form of A. saxatile (regular species is white to many shades of pink), and one of a pale yellow form (pereviously known as A. marschallianum, now a synonym of saxatile).
Allium saxatile - white
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2793531440103156031xKuajD
Allium saxatile - light yellow, aka A. "marschallianum"
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2172179980103156031pmswCz
Todd's Ornamental Onions - Allium species and hybrids (some really good photos)
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/562844038mNXfGR?start=0
So the question is, what species is shown in photos 1-2? For me, the petal shape, head shape, and smallish ovaries of that allium suggest a different species. Do you know where that allium is from?
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Göte, your Allium ovalifolium plants look very healthy and happy, growing more robustly than my single bulb, which remains a single bulb after 7 years, and never sets seed >:(. What is the source of your form? The foliage on your plants also looks much more robust than on mine. What sort of soil and light conditions is it growing in? You're right about the "wildlife", my allium garden is quite literally "abuzz" with thousands of bees, wasps, and butterflies.
Please excuse my delay in answering. I have had many problems on my mind in the last few weeks and did not notice your query.
The source is Chen Yi. I have had it for many years and in the first two they were not growing well.
The situation is fairly shady with very little direct sunlight but some open sky above. It is a protected but cool part of the garden.
Soil: sandy but not allowed to dry out. Relatively high content of organic matter. pH low. Minimum temperature last winter was -26C but under much snow.
Datylorhizas like the situation.
Hope this is helpful
Göte
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Reference photos above, at: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg164054#msg164054
Three interesting alliums, with a twist to the mystery. Regarding 5-6, that's a nice form of Allium albidum. It appears to be Allium albidum ssp. albidum, with pedicels 2-3x the tepal length. How tall is your plant in flower? I have grown a number of forms in the past, but only currently have A. albidum ssp. caucasicum in a good compact form, which has shorter pedicels for a more compact head, and with supposedly slightly longer tepals than ssp. albidum. I am showing two poor low-resolution images of A. albidum ssp. caucasicum from 2002 (I lost the original hi-res images). Incidentally, Allium albidum, which is close to Allium angulosum, freely hybridizes with Allium senescens, nutans, angulosum, and other rhizomatous alliums, most seedlings growing much taller and not white-flowered!
I have this plant two places in the garden (same source), the one in the picture is about 40 cm and the other about 25 cm (probably due to drier more sunny conditions?). What is the wild range of ssp albidum?
Good to know that all these species may hybridize - I have all 4 you mention in the same area!
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I have this plant two places in the garden (same source), the one in the picture is about 40 cm and the other about 25 cm (probably due to drier more sunny conditions?). What is the wild range of Allium albidum ssp albidum?
Good to know that all these species may hybridize - I have all 4 you mention in the same area!
By wild range, I mean the broad scope of variability in plant characteristics and forms. Years ago after growing A. albidum from a number of locations and sources, some had poorly developed heads and rangy growth, unattractive plants overall, whereas others had much better developed flowers, in nice hemispherical heads (as in your plants). Plant growth could be similarly variable. The only one I currently grow is ssp. caucasicum which has the dwarf growth habit, which I like very much. I compare this situation to Allium cernuum, often one can find unremarkable nondescript forms with few-flowered pallid heads, or much better forms, the variability of characteristics is extensive.
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The mystery to me, seems to be the reverse of how you've stated it. The Allium "saxatile album" in photos 1-2, I don't know what species it is, but I'd say it is not A. saxatile, whereas your mystery white Allium in photos 3-4 (and including 2) are Allium saxatile. A key characteristic of Allium saxatile is the spathe that splits into two persistent "valves" or sections, one of which is much longer than the other and longer than the inflorescence... this can clearly be seen in your plants. Also, the ovary in Allium saxatile is rather prominent and globose, almost as long as the tepals.
Mark asked me to take a close-up picture of what I called Allium "saxatile album" above. As I mentioned both my Allium "saxatile album" and the mystery plant (now confirmed by Mark as Allium saxatile) are growing together and I've now found out that I actually planted two different plants received from different sources as A. saxatile beside one another here. The 4 pictures below show close-ups of the flowers, showing the spathes and the whole plant (all Allium "saxatile album").
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Allium chamaemoly is now in seed:
[attachthumb=1]
If you want to try again, Mark, let me know!
cheers
fermi
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Allium chamaemoly is now in seed:
(Attachment Link)
If you want to try again, Mark, let me know!
cheers
fermi
Thanks Fermi, but I'll have to take a "raincheck" (follow up with you at a later date), because I've tried this species and it is definitely not hardy here, and I would need a greenhouse for it to be a winter flowering subject. So, if I ever get my "pit greenhouse" built, and you are still growing this unique and tiny winter-flowering Allium, I'll be contacting you!
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The mystery to me, seems to be the reverse of how you've stated it. The Allium "saxatile album" in photos 1-2, I don't know what species it is, but I'd say it is not A. saxatile, whereas your mystery white Allium in photos 3-4 (and including 2) are Allium saxatile. A key characteristic of Allium saxatile is the spathe that splits into two persistent "valves" or sections, one of which is much longer than the other and longer than the inflorescence... this can clearly be seen in your plants. Also, the ovary in Allium saxatile is rather prominent and globose, almost as long as the tepals.
Mark asked me to take a close-up picture of what I called Allium "saxatile album" above. As I mentioned both my Allium "saxatile album" and the mystery plant (now confirmed by Mark as Allium saxatile) are growing together and I've now found out that I actually planted two different plants received from different sources as A. saxatile beside one another here. The 4 pictures below show close-ups of the flowers, showing the spathes and the whole plant (all Allium "saxatile album").
For this response, reference: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg164490#msg164490
Stephen reminded me that he previously posted a photo of one of the two "white A. saxatile" plants, the identity unknown at the time, and I had suggested it was A. saxatile (see: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg134015#msg134015). Then in his more recent posting (see link at top of this message), where I suggest it might not be A. saxatile, the change in my opinion is based on several things. Stephen's more recent photo shows a plant with short spathes (spathes not visible in initial posting), suggesting that the plant is not actually Allium saxatile, because A. saxatile has 2 persistent spathe segments, one spathe segment being much longer than the inflorescence. Therefore maybe it is one of the several species closely allied to A. saxatile. It also seemed to me, in the more detailed closer-up photo, that the tepals looked narrower, and the ovary shape/size different and less pronounced than what I have seen in A. saxatile. So, I changed my opinion, believing the plant to be an allied species, perhaps Allium korolkovii, akin to saxatile, but with a very short spathe and fasciculate umbel and lanceolate white petals, better matching the plants shown in the updated photos.
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Some recent Alliums:
1. Allium stellatum
2-4 Allium callimischon ssp. callimischon, from Antoine Hoog, 2001, one of the Brevispatha alliums that produce buds in an extremely narrow spathe barely differentiated from the stem, the dry looking stem popping open with fresh flowers in late summer or fall.
5-6 Allium hybrid that appeared a couple meters away from the probable parent, also a hybrid A. senescens type, shown growing in 100% crushed stone gravel in a "drip strip" under the roof eave overhang. Short, nice full spherical flowers.
7-10 Allium 'Pink Pepper' - a dwarf type, like a miniature Allium senescens "glaucum" but with narrow swirling green leaves (not gray) and light pink hemispherical flowers on 4-6" (10-15 cm) stems in September, the flowers peppered with protruding stamens and yellow anthers.
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A most attractive clump of 'Pink Pepper'....made all the more so by all those happy bees.
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Mark
I'm intrigued by your crushed stone gravel "drip strip" under the roof eave overhang.
I presume your house has gutters ,so what is the purpose of the strip ?.
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Mark
Thanks for the diagnosis on my saxatiles! Nice last selection from your garden too.
The season is waning here, but I have two more that have appeared recently that would like a name. The first I possibly planted as A. paniculatum "Dwarf Selection":
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Mark
I'm intrigued by your crushed stone gravel "drip strip" under the roof eave overhang.
I presume your house has gutters ,so what is the purpose of the strip ?.
My tiny "contemporary" house has a 2' roof overhang all the way around, and no gutters (thank goodness). Coming from an architectural background, I have never understood why prevalent building practices are oftentimes at complete odds with the prevailing climate. Gutters in this climate make no sense, they hold back snow on the roof, the alternate melting on frigid but sunny days and refreezing at night creates impressive ice dams starting at the gutters and lower part of the roof, then with melting ice in the daytime water is able to creep backwards under the roof shingles and cause leak damage. A drive around any neighborhood here mid winter makes for some incredible icicle spectacles along the eaves of homes, certainly with water damage happening in many of such instances. Some people put up heating cables in zig-zag fashion along the roof edge, but this can actually just accelerate the ice dam phenomenon, plus they're paying significant electrical charge to run a heating cable day in and out.
Now travel a few miles to the north into Northern New England, and suddenly sensible building details govern... steeper roofs to promote snow sliding off, projecting roof overhangs, NO GUTTERS, and most importantly, the bottom meter or more of the roofing is sheet metal... ice and snow slide right off, not impeded by a frozen gutter.
But, drip strips are never installed for houses without gutters (duh) and the base of exterior walls gets terribly splashed with mud, so the northern NewEnglanders almost got it right, but not quite ::). I have only seen drip strips on commercials buildings, office building, and such. So, I installed my drip strip completely around the house; in the front portion it is actually under-drained and piped out to the back where there is lower grade. Water can drip and pour off the roof, no problem, no splashing, and in winter, zero ice build-up... yay! There is no soil whatsoever in the drip strip, yet things still manage to seed into it... that tells you something :)
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A most attractive clump of 'Pink Pepper'....made all the more so by all those happy bees.
Thanks, I named 'Pink Pepper' about fifteen or more years ago, it remains one of the better late flowering dwarf selections. From this one, I grew a taller pink selection that flowers in August, named 'Sugar Melt', available from Plant Delight's Nursery. Unfortunately, the photo they use does not do it justice... I'll be showing a series of photos showing 'Sugar Melt' and a few others.
Today it is very cool outside, and the bees are zombified, just clinging to the flowers. Here are a couple photos on a warmer day a few days ago, with late flowering Allium nutans/senescens type hybrids.
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Mark
Thanks for the diagnosis on my saxatiles! Nice last selection from your garden too.
The season is waning here, but I have two more that have appeared recently that would like a name. The first I possibly planted as A. paniculatum "Dwarf Selection":
Stephen, the first two do look like a pale flowered form of Allium paniculatum, although with that said, there are dozens upon dozens of very similar species in Allium section Codonoprasum, that there is a possibility it one one of the closely allied species. Looking at the taxonomy and synonymy of A. paniculatum reveals much, with so many "species" once considered subspecies of paniculatum. Upon first impression, flowering seems too late to be A. paniculatum, but checking the floras, September is listed as a flowering time possibility for a couple of subspecies of A. paniculatum. But for A. paniculatum ssp. paniculatum (the one subspecies that often includes white-flowered forms) records flowering between June-August, in Flora of Turkey.
There is also the synonym, Allium paniculatum var. rupestre (= A. rupestre) that is typically off-white color with a purplish or green midvein, upright umbels 5-20 flowered, and flowers in months 7-10 (so flowering now, is within the description), and leaves sheathing lower 1/2 of the stem (another match), so possibly it is A. rupestre. Spent an hour looking for a photo of A. rupestre, found one in a pink form, although the site I'm looking at does have some misnomers.
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/26289.html
The second two photos look like Allium togashii, which would be blooming anywhere between August and October.
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Thanks for your gravel strip explanation Mark ,all of which seems very sensible to me.
We generally have little snow ,maybe a very light covering once every 3 or 4 years--gone in a couple of hours.
Gutters are a requirement here as we rely on tank water collected (as well as bird and possum droppings ,leaf litter etc >:( >:( ), from the roof for domestic use.
We are of very hardy stock here ........ ;D ;D ;D
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This year was the hottest and driest in the last two decades, a brutal drought that provided for challenging conditions in the garden. For the most part, the numerous rhizomatous Allium hybrids I grow still managed to put on a good show as they are quite drought tolerant, although the flowers went over quicker and looked lighter in color than in cooler years, and with more leaves senescing than normal. I've put together some photos from previous years, in seasons more favorable to good growth and flowering.
1-2 Allium 'Sugar Melt' - one of my hybrids resulting from 'Pink Pepper', a dwarf autumn blooming plant, like a small green-leaved A. senescens glaucum, but with good pink flowers peppered with yellow anthers, the flowers on short stems. In 'Sugar Melt', the plants grow taller, but still on the low side, at 14-16", with clear pink flowers in August. I include a link to Plant Delights Nursery where this cultivar is available, although I must say, the image they used is rather poor; my photos give a better impression of what this one looks like.
http://www.plantdelights.com/Catalog/Plants/Genus/Allium
3-4 These photos represent a type of Allium nutans/senescens hybrids that I've been getting, what I call the pincushion types, with flowers so densely packed, and stamens well exserted, the flower balls quite literally look like pin cushions. Thus far, the flower color is too pale.
5 Allium garden view, with a pincushion type hybrid, Allium 'Stellar Dust' in the top center of the view. August blooming.
6 Close-up view of Allium 'Stellar Dust'
7-9 Allium 'Meteor Shower' - one of my newer selections, has a distinctive look, with low broad hemispheres of bloom, the individual florets spaced apart from each other, each floret with a lighter tip. August blooming.
10 Allium 'Asteroids', another recent selection, with 2' tall (or taller) stems, and largish balls of tightly packed lavender pink flowers, each floret like a small crater. August blooming.
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Back home from a long holiday I found these three alliums blooming
1. Allium globosum ssp.psebaicum
2. Allium rupestre
3. Allium ericetorum
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That was a good oniony welcome home for you, Oleg! ;D
Ian and I are so sad that you did not make it to Aberdeen this time.....Lily was looking forward to introducing you to Poppy...... but the gift which arrived unexpectedly from you and dear Sasha was delicious and we thought fondly of you both with each chocolate we ate!! :-* :-*
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Glad you enjoyed it. You didn't treat Lily to it, did you?
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Glad you enjoyed it. You didn't treat Lily to it, did you?
Certainly not, chocolate is bad for dogs ....but we did share one or two with vistors and did not eat them all ourselves!
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Back home from a long holiday I found these three alliums blooming
1. Allium globosum ssp.psebaicum
2. Allium rupestre
3. Allium ericetorum
Oleg, we can always count on some good onion photos from you; very nice! I'm intrigued by A. rupestre, as it is one that almost no reliable photos can be found on the internet, not sure why. Researching the species, it is akin to A. paniculatum (once considered a variety of it), but then again, there are dozens of similar species, and the species descriptions often are inadequate in defining variability, so it is quite difficult to make positive IDs. A. rupestre is also reported as very similar to A. kunthianum, and possibly conspecific with A. tristissimum. Oleg, what is the source of your fine-looking plant?
Can you describe the leaves, A. rupestre is reported as having filiform leaves 0.5-1 mm broad, sheathing the lower 1/2 of stem. It is also reported as only 5-20 flowered, whereas your photo shows a plant with easily twice that count, but then again, I have found specimens of Allium, particularly in this Codonoprasum section, where the bud count varies much more than reported, and similarly, leaves can vary as well. The other aspects of the flowers certainly meet description for A. rupestre.
Regarding Allium globosum ssp. psebaicum, here again we see a most attractive allium, the name sending me into a couple hours of research :o The name A. psebaicum was published in 2004, so a very recent species, although I cannot find any publication of the name A. globosum ssp. psebaicum, only a couple general web sites that use that name. Most taxonomists dealing with Allium taxonomy, and among those species that occur in Russia and extend elsewhere (such as into China) define the species Allium saxatile more globally than done in Russia, thus the yellow phase Allium "marschalianum" and the bright pink A. "globosum" are widely considered synonyms of Allium saxatile. Regardless, it is a most attractive onion, and if flowering this late, all the more valuable.
Oleg, do you have access to any taxonomic publication of A. psebaicum? I'd really like to add such a reference to my "library". Thanks for showing these unusual onions. The A. ericetorum looks good too, useful for late flowering.
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To give further context to Allium saxatile, here are a few photos, a light pink form, and a deeper pink form. I also have a near white form (with pink veins) but I can't locate my photos of it. I used to grow various other varying forms, mostly shades of pink to white, but also a nice yellow form which sadly I no longer have.
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Stephen, the first two do look like a pale flowered form of Allium paniculatum, although with that said, there are dozens upon dozens of very similar species in Allium section Codonoprasum, that there is a possibility it one one of the closely allied species. Looking at the taxonomy and synonymy of A. paniculatum reveals much, with so many "species" once considered subspecies of paniculatum. Upon first impression, flowering seems too late to be A. paniculatum, but checking the floras, September is listed as a flowering time possibility for a couple of subspecies of A. paniculatum. But for A. paniculatum ssp. paniculatum (the one subspecies that often includes white-flowered forms) records flowering between June-August, in Flora of Turkey.
There is also the synonym, Allium paniculatum var. rupestre (= A. rupestre) that is typically off-white color with a purplish or green midvein, upright umbels 5-20 flowered, and flowers in months 7-10 (so flowering now, is within the description), and leaves sheathing lower 1/2 of the stem (another match), so possibly it is A. rupestre. Spent an hour looking for a photo of A. rupestre, found one in a pink form, although the site I'm looking at does have some misnomers.
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/26289.html
The second two photos look like Allium togashii, which would be blooming anywhere between August and October.
Actually, what I have as Allium paniculatum is also still in bloom here and I took (not very good due to poor light) pictures of the two together this evening (Pictures 1 and 2) - the whole flower stem is shown on both plants.
I also show an earlier picture of the same Allium paniculatum (Picture 3) and a plant from a different source(Picture 4)
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Mark,
Both Allium rupestre and globosum psebaicum are from the same source: Sergey Banketov www.mnogoletnik.narod.ru. Just to remind you - the 4th and 5th blue klickable lines on the left of the picture are for alliums and alliums of the Caucasus.
Allium rupestre does have filiform leaves 1-2 mm rather than 0,5-1 mm broad sheathing app. 1/2 of the stem which are completely dry at the moment unlike the stems and flowers which are full of life. New leaves have appeared above the ground for both spesies just like for Allium carinatum or flavum.
Unfortunately I don't have any taxonomic information about A. psebaicum. But why not try to make inquiries on the Internet page I've mentioned. It may help. I think you can send an e-mail to the man in English.
I'm not sure if the onions will have enough time to set seed before frost. But if they do, just let me know you are interested
Oleg
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One of my favourite Allium is the cretan autumn flowering Allium callimischon ssp haemostichum
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One of my favourite Allium is the cretan autumn flowering Allium callimischon ssp haemostichum
Fred, I was recently looking through the earlier SRGC Allium topics and saw this photo, but I must say it bears repeating... a super photo of this tiny fall blooming onion, love the red speckles and red ovaries and anthers. I grew it for a couple years in a trough and lost it due to overcrowding :'(. Currently I only grow A. callimischon ssp. callimischon, also in bloom now, which pales in comparison to ssp. haemostichum. Thanks for showing this most lovely of fall blooming allium.
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Fred your plant is a real beauty, and what a cracking picture too.
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It was only when I enlarged the photo Fred that I really saw how beautiful it is ;D :D
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Finally some signs that autumn is not so far...
In bloom today two rareties:
A. autumnale rare endemic from Cyprus.
A. tardiflorum endemic to Israel, only a few hundred plants in the wild growing in one location.
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One of my favourite Allium is the cretan autumn flowering Allium callimischon ssp haemostichum
STUNING!!!!!
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Could i have verification on nomenclature from someone?
Allium pszemense?
I can't find the name anywhere.
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Could i have verification on nomenclature from someone?
Allium pszemense?
I can't find the name anywhere.
Try A. pskemense ;)
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Could i have verification on nomenclature from someone?
Allium pszemense?
Try A. pskemense ;)
Here's the verification
Allium pskemense (http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do?accepted_id=296349&repSynonym_id=-9998&name_id=296349&status=true)
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A perfect picture of a truly wonderful flower Fred !! :o
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Finally some signs that autumn is not so far...
In bloom today two rareties:
A. autumnale rare endemic from Cyprus.
A. tardiflorum endemic to Israel, only a few hundred plants in the wild growing in one location.
Oron, I like these little demure autumnal allium, even if quite understated. There's yet another near autumn flowering one from Iran, named A. autumniflorum which flowers in October. I don't currently grow any of these other than A. callimiscon ssp. callimischon, in bloom now.
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In bloom today, a recently received replacement to an Allium I once grew but lost, Allium thunbergii DJH 272 (Dan Hinkley). It is 6-8" (15-20 cm) in bloom.
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Mark: Good to at least see a species that I'm hoping will survive its first winter here (thanks to Ashley's generosity)...
I was at Kew Gardens last week and here's a few Alliums in the new Alpine house, including thunbergii just emerging.
1-2 Allium glandulsoum
3 Allium thunbergii Ozoke
4-5 Allium wallichii (floriferous!)
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I visited a friend who showed me two unidentified Alliums picked up in a market in Aizawl, Mizaram in India
1-4 is a very large species - the leaves are serrated
5-6 is small but quite large bulbs (reminiscent of Rakkyo or Allium chinense)
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I was at Kew Gardens last week and here's a few Alliums in the new Alpine house, including thunbergii just emerging.
1-2 Allium glandulsoum
3 Allium thunbergii Ozoke
4-5 Allium wallichii (floriferous!)
Good to see Allium glandulosum, an intriguing Mexican species, and hardy too. Mine are from San Luis Potosi, Mexico, 1999, and are also flowering now, although a meager show, most buds aborted and only a few flower spikes appeared because it was way too dry this year. This is a moisture loving species, and even though I tried dousing the plants regularly with water during our full water ban, not enough moisture to initiate good flowering. On the good side, it is starting to spread around, it increases from stolons. I think this is a one-of-a-kind sort of allium with those shiny true red flowers.
I have a second form of A. glandulosum from Sierra de Guanajuato, Mexico, M.Rix, via Arnis Seisums, which I got in 2002. The label said "dry frost-free winter". Knowing that the species is hardy, I planted it outside in 2002 and it's been hardy outside. Only flowered once though, no flowers this year, but I'm happy it is spreading a little bit given the extreme dryness this summer.
I believe 'Ozoke' is a name corruption of 'Ozawa'. I have seen the name 'Ozoke' before, but it's probably the same misspelling getting around.
That wallichii, wow what a high bud count and deep color. I notice the buds and back of the petals have a powdery "bloom", a real beauty, nice for its flowering so late too.
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I visited a friend who showed me two unidentified Alliums picked up in a market in Aizawl, Mizaram in India
1-4 is a very large species - the leaves have serrated leaves
5-6 is small but quite large bulbs (reminiscent of Rakkyo or Allium chinense)
I've taken a look, but not sure I can come up with any good suggestions for either. Being that they were found in a market in India between Bangladesh and Myanmar (Burma), means that the plants could come from most anywhere, even from outside of India, from China perhaps.
I agree when first looking at 5-6, I thought of A. chinense, but there's not enough details and facts here to know determine an ID.
The larger one conjured up thoughts of A. humile and even hookeri, but neither quite matches. Maybe go through the keys of neighboring areas, but for some areas, India and Myanmar included, I do not know of any reliable and accessible floras nor keys to Allium. Doing some searching on Alliums used as edibles in the region, came across this one, Allium hypsistum, used in Nepal, but in my 15 minutes of searching have yet to come up with a species description. I might have to paw through my miscellany of photocopied taxonomic bits for India and adjacent regions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allium_hypsistum
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At least 1 month early this year, is an allium received as A. taquetii that I received from the US National Arboretum many years ago; the name taquetii is a synonym for A. thunbergii. Certainly the flowers are just like A. thunbergii, deep rose-purple with long exserted stamens, and flowering very late in the season. However, instead of having the usual fistulose (hollow) keeled leaves, here the leaves are absolutely flat and not hollow. Usually this one blooms extremely late, the end of October into December, but this year it is flowering much earlier, even before A. thunbergii 'Ozawa'!
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Thanks for having a go at the Indian Alliums. I have Plants and People of Nepal and A. hypsistum is described briefly: "Herb about 25 cm high. Leaves linear, round in cross-section. Flowers pinkish when young, white at maturity, clustered at the end of a scape". Doesn't seem to fit? It's a bigger platn, perhaps 50-100 cm. It was pot grown so could well be at the higher end in a garden.
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My Allium hookeri (1-2) is making an attempt to flower (a bit late) - this was from seed from a Chinese vegetable seed packet where it is cultivated for food. Can you confirm from these pictures that it is hookeri?
Secondly another late flowering unidentified Allium is flowering for the first time in the mild autumn weather (3-4).
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Stephen, your Allium seems to be Allium thunbergii
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Really! Thanks - it fits with the late flowering, of course. However, I've planted thunbergii several other places in the garden and it's never succeeded or turned out to be something different, but I have no record of planting it here....
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My Allium hookeri (1-2) is making an attempt to flower (a bit late) - this was from seed from a Chinese vegetable seed packet where it is cultivated for food. Can you confirm from these pictures that it is hookeri?
Secondly another late flowering unidentified Allium is flowering for the first time in the mild autumn weather (3-4).
Stephen, I agree with Fred that your second one is A. thunbergii. The first one is a dead-ringer (identical match) for A. hookeri. Interesting that it is flowering so late. With the yellow form (A. hookeri var. muliense) which never ever sets any seed for me, this year I finally had the nerve to dig up the plant and divide the bulbs, I think it divided into 3-4 bulbs after about 6 years... a slow grower.
Thanks for the description of A. hypsistum, I agree it does not match your plant.
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Thanks for the confirmation. I planted Allium komarovii (seed from Berkutenko in Magadan) in this place and I see in Nomenclator Alliorum that Allium komarovianum = A. thunbergii.
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Thanks for the confirmation. I planted Allium komarovii (seed from Berkutenko in Magadan) in this place and I see in Nomenclator Alliorum that Allium komarovianum = A. thunbergii.
Allium komarovii Lipsky (alternate spelling A. komarowii) is a medium tall Melanocrommyum type, not to be confused with the similarly named A. komarovianum Vved., the latter as you say = A. thunbergii.
To show A. komarovii, here are three older pics from 2003. The species is still growing here, but not always flowering nor setting any seed.
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Going through some photos taken on garden visits, I came across this one, a very floriferous clump of Japanese Allium togashii blooming midsummer in the garden of Peter George in central Massachusetts. I believe his plants came from me, as I was distributing this little late summer bloomer to our local NARGS chapter members. The photo reminds me that I must once again move mine, being crowded out by more vigorous plants.
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After coming back from our trip to Scotland it was nice to see these plants in flower here :D
Allium thunbergii var. Ozawa
Luit, your Allium has foliage that is thinner and more thready than typical for A. thunbergii 'Ozawa'; your plant looking like a very nice deep-color form of what goes around as A. virgunculae. Plants under that name are generally much smaller, with thready foliage, nearly terete foliage, and more open heads with fewer flowers. Although, there are some dwarf forms of A. thunbergii that can blue the lines between the species. I believe A. thunbergii 'Ozawa' is a taller growing plant with broader long foliage, and with denser heads of bloom. Mine are just coming into flower, so a photo of the flowers, then a photo showing a cross-section of the leaves... they should be hollow and 3-sided... almost triangular, and lastly a seedling from A. thunbergii 'Ozawa' that looks much like Ozawa, but is in full flower growing in a warmer part of the yard. But your plant is a sweet little allium indeed, very nice.
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After coming back from our trip to Scotland it was nice to see these plants in flower here :D
Allium thunbergii var. Ozawa
Luit, your Allium has foliage that is thinner and more thready than typical for A. thunbergii 'Ozawa'; your plant looking like a very nice deep-color form of what goes around as A. virgunculae. Plants under that name are generally much smaller, with thready foliage, nearly terete foliage, and more open heads with fewer flowers. Although, there are some dwarf forms of A. thunbergii that can blue the lines between the species. I believe A. thunbergii 'Ozawa' is a taller growing plant with broader long foliage, and with denser heads of bloom. Mine are just coming into flower, so a photo of the flowers, then a photo showing a cross-section of the leaves... they should be hollow and 3-sided... almost triangular, and lastly a seedling from A. thunbergii 'Ozawa' that looks much like Ozawa, but is in full flower growing in a warmer part of the yard. But your plant is a sweet little allium indeed, very nice.
Thanks for your input Mark.
I am almost sure that my plant originally came from GB. You may be right in assuming that the name is wrong, as I don’t know much about the naming of Allium.
But I have done some research and found the following notes in catalogues.
The first is from Desirable plants in S. England which fits probably to my plant?:
Allium thunbergii ‘Ozawa’
A tiny, easy, gently clumping species with tight little clusters of bright pink-purple flowers, with long protruding stamens, among ultrafine dark green leaves. At home in the rock garden, a safe little front-of-border corner, or on the AGS showbench for that matter. One of the plants that helps make September my happiest month.
Then I found this description of a plant by Lost Horizons.ca but without color description
Allium thunbergii 'Ozawa' (dwarf form)
A charming very late blooming small onion that is only half the size of what is normally sold in the trade. We had this years ago and lost it but thankfully Kirk Zufelt propagated it and gave it back to us.[Alliaceae] [Garden origin] [z5] [Full sun] [1 gal] [15 cm (6") / 15 cm (6")]
By Google I found this website of Allium virgunculae var. kiiense
http://hanamist.sakura.ne.jp/flower/tansiyo/yuri/kiito.html (http://hanamist.sakura.ne.jp/flower/tansiyo/yuri/kiito.html)
This looks strongly like my plant too.
Last but not least I found in the AGS Bulletin Vol 68; Nr. 1, pp 136 an article by Brian Mathew about Allium.
He writes the following:
In terms of plant introductions, the Japanese A. virgunculae is a comparative newcomer but is already well-known and much appreciated for its white or pale pink autumn flowers. It seems to do well in a raised gritty bed if sheltered, but is best seen in the alpine house. Also autumnal and Japanese is the clump-forming purple-red A. thunbergii and its even richer version ‘Ozawa’. Here in Surrey this has proved rather tougher outside than A. virgunculae and is to be higly recommended for its showy flowers with their extremely prominent stamens and foliage that remains a fresh deep green at flowering time.
I am still trying to trace where my plant came from but after reading the above last lines, I see at the moment no reason to change the name.
Maybe this part of the page might be better at home in the Allium thread? - edit: moved to allium thread from Flowering Now in the Northern Hemisphere. Maggi
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Luit, I agree, maybe this should be moved to the Allium thread.
Interesting stuff Luit, I will peruse the info in more detail tonight. Allium thunbergii should have 3-angled subfistulose leaves as in my photo, so I wonder what a cross-section through the leaves on your plant are like... could you take a photo?
Allium thunbergii 'Ozawa' (sometimes seen with the misspelling 'Ozoke') was brought to the USA from Japan by George Schenk decades ago, named after the person who selected this form. George lived near Seattle, Washington, USA (Bothel, WA), and his original plants made they way to Bob Putnam, a well known grower/nurseryman in the next town over, Kirkland WA. I brought my plants from Bob Putnam in the early 1980s when I moved to the area, my plants shown previously are the same original source. Here's a photo link taken in John Lonsdale's, one a few leaves you can see the central ridge (the leaves are channeled, and hollow). I notice that some nurseries are selling Allium thunbergii 'Ozawa' - dwarf form, which is probably another allium altogether... seems kind of silly to knowingly retain a cultivar name on something that obviously differs from the cultivar.
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/files/Allium/Allium_thunbergii_Ozawa1_JL.jpg
I think you're on to something with the Allium virgunculae var. kiiense link... fascinating. My only regret is that I once grew about 10 forms of virgunculae, some imported from Kazuo Mori in Japan, and as well, he had given me some "Allium sp. nova" alliums collected on one of the Japanese Islands, possible one of the several (3) A. virgunculae varieties that have been described some 20 years later or more, but after several house moves (2 being cross-country house moves) I no longer have any of those little fall bloomers, they're all so cute. More on this later.
Maggi: I posted and see that Luit's post must have been moved in the interim. Can you move mine to Allium 2010 thread too? Thanks.
Edit: Ooops, I must have been moving the other posts as you were making this one, McMark.... all reunited now! Maggi
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Ozawa: This is another of my failures - received seed from NARGS in 2007, it bloomed in mid-summer 2009 (=not thunbergii, a late bloomer), don't think I decided what it is though...
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Ozawa: This is another of my failures - received seed from NARGS in 2007, it bloomed in mid-summer 2009 (=not thunbergii, a late bloomer), don't think I decided what it is though...
Stephen, in some years I actually get seed set, but only in years where the autumn is milder and drier than normal, as lots of cold, freezing, snow and rain can turn the late-developing capsules to mush. If the seed capsules stay intact far enough along in the season, then at some point I can pick the stems (probably in December) and actually harvest seed. I'll try and get some off the A. thunbergii pictured above (a seedling from 'Ozawa') which grows particularly robust.
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Luit, back to your plant, I do believe it is A. virgunculae, or one of the three varieties of virgunculae. The dwarf stature, the fewer-flowered heads, and extra narrow thready leaves which appear terete or semi-terete (versus broader and trigonous or triangle-shaped in cross-section and hollow as in A. thunbergii), are all trademark characteristics of A. virgunculae.
The three A. virgunculae varieties are:
var. kiiense (the combination first published in 1972, but published as its own species, A. kiiense in 2009)
var. koshikiense (published 2009)
var. yakushimense (published 1998)
All of this represents new taxonomic discovery, no wonder the varieties are missing from the Nomenclature Alliorum compendium, although there should have been an entry for A. virgunculae var. kiiense since it was published well before the 1998 publish date of that Allium name list. All varieties are endangered species.
There is a recent publication on these entitled: A Taxonomic Revision of the Allium virgunculae Complex (Alliaceae), Acta phytotaxonomica et geobotanica 60(2), 79-86, 2009-09-30, http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110007482280
The trouble is, it isn't even available for purchase, the link to this 2009 publication says "This article is not available for up to 2 year(s) after issue by the Academic Society's policy. Thank you for your patience".
The only thing I've found so far, are distribution maps for the type species and the three varieties, which I assembled into a rectangular image that I uploaded, or use the following link:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.jpnrdb.com/search.php%3Fmode%3Dkind%26q%3D06%26pageID%3D15%26t%3Df%26cd%3D0605008%26disp%3Dthumb%26s%3Dcld&ei=1nS_TPbOJsWclgf6-rnkBw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEcQ7gEwCA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DAllium%2Bvirgunculae%2Bvar.%2Bkoshikiense%26hl%3Den%26prmd%3Div
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Thanks to Luit's link to Allium virgunculae var. kiiense, one can take a nice diversion onto a page of Japanese plants at:
http://hanamist.sakura.ne.jp/flower/tansiyo/yuri.html
Some of the Tricytris, Veratrum, Fritillaria, are worth feasting your eyes upon.
The genus names are listed on the left side, and to the right a list of clickable links, each for a species in that genus. You have to click each Japanese-text link to see what species they are, but I discovered good pics of plants I have not seen photos of before.
For Allium, there is a link for A. pseudojaponicum, one that I've not seen before, although Nomenclature Alliorum puts this in synonymy with A. thunbergii:
http://hanamist.sakura.ne.jp/flower/tansiyo/yuri/tamamura.html
Having grown a number of these Japanese allium in the past decades, particularly the thunbergii-sacculiferum-virgunculae-chinense confusing fall blooming clan, I was convinced that someone needs to work on reevaluating the taxonomy on them and provide an updated revision or overview of the species, so it's good to at long last learn that at least the "virgunculae" complex has been recently updated.
Photo of distribution maps of 3 more Japanese species (pseudojaponicum, austrokyushuense, and thunbergii) is uploaded:
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My main planting of Allium thunbergii 'Ozawa' is at peak now (the white thunbergii forms flower a tad later).
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Thanks, Mark. Appreciate you're trying...
I hope the Allium I've been waiting on (for you) hasn't turned to mush - it's been down to -6C and not gone above zero all day and cold weather forecast for the next week (I'll have to attempt a rescue)...
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Bottom left is Kew Garden's Allium virgunculae "Hirato White"
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Today I made some photos again, a close-up of a flower and some of the stems, which are almost round
and just on one side a little square-edged and they are not hollow.
It would be good if there is someone who made pictures at shows in GB of the OZAWA plant during the last years.
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Today I made some photos again, a close-up of a flower and some of the stems, which are almost round
and just on one side a little square-edged and they are not hollow.
It would be good if there is someone who made pictures at shows in GB of the OZAWA plant during the last years.
Excellent Luit, the foliage is just as I expected... almost round in cross-section but typically with a small flat or angular plane, and solid. I would be comfortable calling that A. virgunculae. In fact, it's actually a much rarer entity compared to the rather common thunbergii 'Ozawa', one rarely sees Allium virgunculae anymore. And it's an excellent color form as well. Then, if we could get our hands on the recent taxonomic paper that describes the 3 varieties of A. virgunculae, possibly your plant could be narrowed into one of those, or stay where it fits as pure A. virgunculae. Thanks for supplying the close-up views.
Stephen, I grew the white Allium virgunculae (didn't have a cultivar name then) many years ago from bulbs I imported from Kazuo Mori in Japan, although it never bulked up into a good clump like the one you photographed in bud. I see in your photo, that Mexican Allium glandulosum with red flowers is in the pot next to the white virgunculae.
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A couple of spring onions ::) in our rock gardens!
Allium cristophii ( is it really spelled without the 'h' after the 'c', Mark?) just starting
[attachthumb=1]
And what I got as Allium acuminatum from a Seedex, but is it really A. murrayanum???
[attachthumb=2]
cheers
fermi
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Stephen, I grew the white Allium virgunculae (didn't have a cultivar name then) many years ago from bulbs I imported from Kazuo Mori in Japan, although it never bulked up into a good clump like the one you photographed in bud. I see in your photo, that Mexican Allium glandulosum with red flowers is in the pot next to the white virgunculae.
Well spotted, Mark - I was going to mention it but forgot.... You didn't get the one at the back? It's thunbergii....
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Allium cristophii ( is it really spelled without the 'h' after the 'c', Mark?) ...And what I got as Allium acuminatum from a Seedex, but is it really A. murrayanum??? cheers fermi
Not sure on the IDs, but I'm sure that McMark will know ;) ;D
However, I do know that A cristophii is spelled like that and A murrayanum is a synonym for A acuminatum.
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Allium cristophii ( is it really spelled without the 'h' after the 'c', Mark?) ...And what I got as Allium acuminatum from a Seedex, but is it really A. murrayanum??? cheers fermi
Not sure on the IDs, but I'm sure that McMark will know ;) ;D
However, I do know that A cristophii is spelled like that and A murrayanum is a synonym for A acuminatum.
Diane, correct on both accounts, but there's more:
The name A. murrayanum was published by Regel in Gartenflora 1873, long since a synonym of A. acuminatum. The problem is, Allium "murrayanum" of horticulture is universally Allium unifolium, not truly as a synonym but as an imposter. I'm afraid the European bulb trade has firmly entrenched the mistake into Horticulture, and if you Google Allium murrayanum, you'll still find lots of nurseries sell it thusly named. Not sure how after 125+ years this misidentification is so widespread in Europe and persists to this day, when the knowledge that plants under this name in Hort is always Allium unifolium has also been known for quite some time.
One UK nursery sells the plant correctly as A. unifolium, but says "also sometimes known as Allium murrayanum, and Allium uniflorum var. murrayanum". http://www.kevockgarden.co.uk/plantlist/Sb_allium_unifolium.htm
To be clear, the combination A. unifolium "var. murrayanum" was never a published name. The curious thing about this widespread mistake is that the name "murrayanum" was early on (in the latter 1800s) sunk into synonymy, and it's one of those names so little used in the earlier days of American taxonomy that it is even dropped from the synonymy status, so most floras such as Jepson's Manual of the Flowering Plants of California don't even mention murrayanum, even though both acuminatum and unifolium grow in California. The old name murrayanum is even missing from the Nomenclator Alliorum name compendium.
So Fermi, a long way to say, your plant is Allium unifolium. :)
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Two of the three autumnal flowering Allium in Crete, Photos from couple of days ago.
Allium chamaespathum - E Crete
Allium tardans - E Crete
This particular A. tardans has a nice reddish color.
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Two of the three autumnal flowering Allium in Crete, Photos from couple of days ago.
This particular A. tardans has a nice reddish color.
Very nice Oron, love seeing these late bloomers. I had not seen A. chamaespathum before and didn't realize it flowers this late. In Mathew's A Review of Allium section Allium the flowering time is given as (July--)August-October. Seeing that it is found in Greece, Crete and Albania, from sea level up to 2135 m, I suppose it is not surprising there is such a broad bloom time reported. Even though greenish-white flowered, I think it's a charming little autumn bulb, thanks for showing. The A. tardans is a good-looking form too, and aptly named, you can see the obvious Codonoprasum alliance to species like paniculatum, and bearing some similarity to Scorodon section A. callimischon ssp. callimischon as well.
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Thanks Mark,
I have seen A. chamaespathum in many occasions, never before September and in some cases till early November.
This plant was growing at 180m, both species share the same habitat.
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A fellow NARGS member, Harold Peachey, who lives in upper state New York, USA, posted a photo showing a fine autumnal clump of Allium thunbergii (white form), growing in his garden. Harold has given me permission to repost his photo here.
Note on the older leaves, they age an orange color as seen on the purple 'Ozawa' selection. You can also see how the leaves are visibly channeled.
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So Fermi, a long way to say, your plant is Allium unifolium. :)
But they've got more tha one leaf! ;D ;D ;D Thanks for clearing that up, Mark.
Oron,
that green flowering allium (A. chamaespathum) looks amazing - almost fluorescent! Thanks for sharing the pic with us.
cheers
fermi
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Would you care to pronounce on my Allium thunbergii 'Ozawa", Mark?
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Would you care to pronounce on my Allium thunbergii 'Ozawa", Mark?
Anne, did you compare your plant's details to a couple photos that show diagnostic leaf characteristics; hollow and triangular in cross-section = thunbergii, and nearly round and solid (and thready narrow leaves) in A. virgunculae? Kind of hard to tell from your photos, but the foliage looks narrow and thready and the heads are few-flowered, so hear again it is probably Allium virgunculae and not A. thunbergii 'Ozawa'... it looks somewhat similar to Luit's allium. And as I said before, having A. virgunculae is no consolation prize, its an excellent dwarf species that is more rare in horticulture than A. thunbergii.
I'm showing an updated photo of A. thunbergii 'Ozawa', with a few blooms on the white thunbergii starting to open.
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I take these photo's a few weeks ago of this Allium. Today, the plant is still flowering. I bought these plant many years ago under the name Allium thunbergii.
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Frankie, your plant looks very much like my plant and I presume our plants come from the same Belgian source.
Now I am curious where Anne's plant comes from in England, her's is obviously the same plant as our plant.
I already explained that my plant probably was imported from GB and I asked our (Belgian) source if they still knew where it came from.
Alas I did not receive an answer. You are living not so far away so maybe you can give it a try as well??
Great to have another Belgian on the Forum :D
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I take these photo's a few weeks ago of this Allium. Today, the plant is still flowering. I bought these plant many years ago under the name Allium thunbergii.
Frankie, your plant looks very much like my plant and I presume our plants come from the same Belgian source.
Now I am curious where Anne's plant comes from in England, her's is obviously the same plant as our plant.
I already explained that my plant probably was imported from GB and I asked our (Belgian) source if they still knew where it came from.
Alas I did not receive an answer. You are living not so far away so maybe you can give it a try as well??
Luit, yes I agree Frankie's plant looks similar to yours, here again with thready leaves and few-flowered heads of deep color. I will follow with some new information found on these confusing Japanese autumn blooming onions.
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Over the years (decades) I've been frustrated with the inadequacy of taxonomy around many variable forms of autumn-blooming Alliums from Japan and Korea. It seems only a few species are described, yet plants can be found that fall between the taxonomic cracks; I've felt for a long time that a taxonomic update is sorely needed. Taxonomic review was late to arrive, and what has been published, is typically published in Japanese, or available only by purchase.
I did finally find a 1998 mixed Japanese/English publication (PDF file) that reviews these Alliums (the A. thunbergii complex) and contains a key to the related species. Unfortunately, it is not looking at the whole group, but only regionally of Southern Japan and islands, but it gives further clues. I have uploaded the PDF and as well, posted screen captures of key pages and descriptions. The publication defines a new species, A. austrokyushuense, and mention of another more recent species, A. amamianum, a synonym for A. pseudojaponicum.
http://ci.nii.ac.jp/els/110003758641.pdf?id=ART0004970799&type=pdf&lang=en&host=cinii&order_no=&ppv_type=0&lang_sw=&no=1292541216&cp= (http://ci.nii.ac.jp/els/110003758641.pdf?id=ART0004970799&type=pdf&lang=en&host=cinii&order_no=&ppv_type=0&lang_sw=&no=1292541216&cp=)
If the link above does not work, use the following link instead:
http://www.plantbuzz.com/buzz/Allium_thunbergii_group_in_southern_Kyushu_and_Ryukyu_Islands.pdf
Years ago there was publication of Allium pseudojaponicum (see link below), which is like thunbergii but with flat leaves (matches a plant I'm growing)... however Nomenclator Alliorum 1998 puts this in synonymy with A. thunbergii. However, newer Japanese publications maintain this species, so it seems reasonable to do likewise.
http://hanamist.sakura.ne.jp/flower/tansiyo/yuri/tamamura.html
The small key to these autumn-blooming Japanese species only mentions type A. virgunculae and one variety (var. yakushimense), although as posted above, as of 2009 there are two more varieties of A. virgunculae (var. kiiense, var. koshikiense), these will not be in the key because they're newer. I'd like to get a paper that describes the revision of A. virgunculae, although it's only available for purchase, $30 US dollars for 4 pages! I need to refrain from any such purchases while unemployed, but will earmark it for later.
So, maybe some of these dwarf Japanese fall-blooming onions that many of us have, can be ascribed to species for a better fit than we've been able to all these years.
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Frankie, your plant looks very much like my plant and I presume our plants come from the same Belgian source.
Now I am curious where Anne's plant comes from in England, her's is obviously the same plant as our plant.
I already explained that my plant probably was imported from GB and I asked our (Belgian) source if they still knew where it came from.
Alas I did not receive an answer. You are living not so far away so maybe you can give it a try as well??
Great to have another Belgian on the Forum :D
My copy comes from alpine nursery at Cathy Portier, near Brugge. For now I do not know where it originated.
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I have looked at my two plants of A. 'Ozawa'. I'm afraid I only keep detailed records of my narcissus and galanthus acquisitions, so unfortunately don't have the source of these, but it is likely to be Lamberton, Edrom or Pottertons nurseries.
The photos below show one plant on the left and the other on the right with their leaves then their flower stems. I'm still confused. The leaves of both are about 1mm across, both hollow, but at least the dark-flowered plant has distinctly angled leaves.
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Anne, the leaf stems of my plant are not hollow, so we will have a different plant in the garden.
I think there are several seedling plants around of the A. thunbergii small type from Japan with more or less dark flowers.
Here is a link to a picture by Tod Boland:
http://www.nargs.org/nargswiki/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=302 (http://www.nargs.org/nargswiki/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=302)
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I have looked at my two plants of A. 'Ozawa'. I'm afraid I only keep detailed records of my narcissus and galanthus acquisitions, so unfortunately don't have the source of these, but it is likely to be Lamberton, Edrom or Pottertons nurseries.
The photos below show one plant on the left and the other on the right with their leaves then their flower stems. I'm still confused. The leaves of both are about 1mm across, both hollow, but at least the dark-flowered plant has distinctly angled leaves.
Anne, flower stems are typically solid on all these related species, but based on your photo showing fistulose leaves, and based on the key on the previous page, it can either be a few-flowered short form of A. thunbergii, or A. virgunculae var. yakushimense, both have fistulose leaves. However the leaf dimension of 1mm across, points squarely at an A. vigunculae form, as thunbergii has wider leaves greater than 1 mm. Now, If I could get the 2009 taxonomic revision of the A. virgunculae complex, where yet another 2 varieties of A. virgunculae are defined, there might even be more possibilities. Thanks for the detail photos of stem and leaf diagnostics, they are most helpful. So many look-alike "species" and varieties in these confusing Japanese autumn-blooming alliums. But rejoice in each and every one, they are so welcome to flower so late in the season.
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They certainly are, and that was the reason I bought them. I'll leave the original labels on for now!
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Allium virgunculae (I think?) pictured at our AGS Local Group meeting last night and grown by Edwina Pickard.
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That's a cute lil' onion David, looks like the real A. virgunculae. Here's a link on a Japanese site, looks just like that plant.
http://hanamist.sakura.ne.jp/flower/tansiyo/yuri/itorakkyo.html
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Many thanks Mark I'll pass that on to the grower. I'm hopeful of scrounging a bulb ;D
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The flowers on this plant look rather different from my plant. ???
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The flowers on this plant look rather different from my plant. ???
Don't forget, there are 4 varieties of A. virgunculae. At one point I grew about 10-12 different forms of A. virgunculae, several imported directly from Japan; a couple from known locales, all were rather different, but all were small thready-leafy species that flowered in autumn. Some had the rather open shallow bell-shaped florets seen in the photo David showed, others had the more typical campanulate floret shape. And then there are other recently described species very closely allied to both virgunculae and thunbergii, namely austrokyushinense and pseudojaponicum, all being small autumn-flowering Japanese onions with pink to purple flowers with long exserted stamens separated on rather finite differences, see: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg170443#msg170443
I'm trying to apply a name to the flat-leaved A. thunbergii I received years ago from the US National Arboretum, it is still in flower now, and setting see (see photos). It might be A. pseudojaponicum, however I have a problem with the small key to the species in the link above; according to that key, A. thunbergii has inner filaments with teeth on either side, whereas in my experience the teeth are often lacking, in fact the Flora of China reports "inner ones (filaments) sometimes with 1 very small tooth on each side", which indicates to me that depending on whether filaments have teeth or not is an unreliable characteristic.
What one is able to do, is to place subject fall-blooming Japanese Alliums into one "camp" or another, is it closer to virgunculae (dwarf, thready-leaf, few-flowered species), or closer to thunbergii (taller plants, denser flower heads, broader trigonous hollow leaves). In the case of thunbergii 'Ozawa' it is a bit more academic, the true cultivar has certain characteristics as I've shown earlier, closely aligned to thunbergii with wider strongly trigonous hollow leaves and fuller heads of rosy purple flowers.
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Just back after all the shows
Allium chamaemoly is in flower and in fruit
the first picture is in Sicily LN
the two other at the nursery
Roland
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Hey Allium fans, I received an announcement today from Dr. Reinhard Fritsch that "some data and images of definitively determined accessions of our IPK Taxonomic Allium reference collection are now available via IPK Homepage (Institute of Plant Genetics in Gatersleben, Germany). Keep this first link handy, because if you choose to look at any other database link, you can't get back to this home page. :-\
http://www.ipk-gatersleben.de/Internet/Infrastruktur/Datenbanken/GenetischeRessourcen (http://www.ipk-gatersleben.de/Internet/Infrastruktur/Datenbanken/GenetischeRessourcen)
I've been checking it out, and there is excellent information and photos available, showing many species that are otherwise difficult or impossible to find photos of. The typus information, indicating where each accession was made, is also most useful. There is much that can be accessed here, although some of the web linking and functionality can be tricky to figure out, but let me highlight the most useful items I've found so far.
Taxonomic Allium Reference Collection - currently 3784 records of Allium accessions, many with photographs. Some steps on how best to use the resource:
a. Go to: http://apex.ipk-gatersleben.de/apex/f?p=265:1:0::::: (http://apex.ipk-gatersleben.de/apex/f?p=265:1:0:::::)
(link updated 08-21-2015, their database location moved)
b. Click on "Search allium data" at the top of the page, a huge list will appear.
1. Since the list is not sorted alphabetically, use the drop-down list labeled - Select scientific name - (photo 1)
2. I selected Allium akaka, a list of 4 accessions shows. Click on the left-hand document icon to display the first record. (photo 2)
3. The first record is displayed, if there are photos, thumbnail images show in the record. Use the left and right arrows in the record
to cycle through the records, finding photos you want to look at. (photo 3)
4. Cycling through the records, it is interesting to see from the thumbnails the variations in the species. (photo 4)
5. From the drop-down list I moved on to Allium eriocoleum, a beautiful (and rare) yellow-flowered species. (photo 5)
6. Click on a thumbnail for an enlarged view, here showing Allium eriocoleum. (photo 6)
There is also a List of Allium images from the Allium Database (this is separate from the photos available through the Taxonomic Allium Ref Collection)
http://mansfeld.ipk-gatersleben.de/pls/htmldb_pgrc/f?p=185:83:4399216669677684 (http://mansfeld.ipk-gatersleben.de/pls/htmldb_pgrc/f?p=185:83:4399216669677684)
Have fun :D
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Mark....thank you so much for this....have spent some time this morning playing with this---and already found a few answers I had been searching for.
:D
Kristl
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Mark....thank you so much for this....have spent some time this morning playing with this---and already found a few answers I had been searching for.
Glad you find it useful, it's great when a resource gets used right away. :D
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On a separate topic I posted information about Aksu Inn - Excursions to South Kazakhstan:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6262.msg173185#msg173185
Yevgeny Belousov kindly gave permission to show some of the beautiful Allium species from Kazakhstan, more of his beautiful high-resolution photos are available for purchase on a CD, see the link above.
1 Allium carolinianum - Ulken Kaindy Pass, Kazakhstan
2 A. eriocoleum - a beautiful yellow species, allied to the more widespread (and also yellow) A. scabriscapum.
3 A. karataviense - a familiar spacies, but oh so variable in the wide, this is a very pretty form
4-5 A. fedtschenkoanum (A. atrosanguineum var. fedtschenkoanum per the Flora of China), one I have lusted over for years, think of it as a golden orange form of chives (A. schoenoprasum) to which it is related. Isn't that field of bloom amazing :o
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The field of A. fedtschenkoanum is amazing, yes. Locally plentiful is the phrase, I suppose! Very fetching colours.
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Hello onion mavens, here is an intriguing little onion photographed by Panayoti Kelaidis on is 2009 expedition to Mongolia, sadly this one was not among the collections made. I'm parsing through the 1995 publication in Feddes Repertorium 106 (1995) 1-2, pp 59-81, The Genus Allium L. in the Flora of Mongolia by Nicolai Friesen, to see if I can match up an ID. Since this short publication is basically an enumeration of species and their distribution, I'll have to resort to species descriptions elsewhere, such as Flora of the USSR, and possibly Flora of China, depending on where in Mongolia the photo was taken. A really cute onion, whatever it is.
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I visited a friend who showed me two unidentified Alliums picked up in a market in Aizawl, Mizaram in India
1-4 is a very large species - the leaves are serrated
5-6 is small but quite large bulbs (reminiscent of Rakkyo or Allium chinense)
I asked Dr. Reinhard Fritsch of Gatersleben about the Allium found in a vegetable market in India (link above) and he feels pretty sure it is Allium hookeri (also youir initial feeling Mark).
He also told me that a preliminary version of a database presenting Gatersleben's taxonomic Allium collection is now available via the Internet:
http://www.ipk-gatersleben.de/databases/allium (http://www.ipk-gatersleben.de/databases/allium)
Here you can see pictures of e.g. A. hookeri amongst many others. This will I think be a valuable resource! However, he said that he did not know how long this link will work because the database will soon be linked via the IPK homepage.
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I asked Dr. Reinhard Fritsch of Gatersleben about the Allium found in a vegetable market in India (link above) and he feels pretty sure it is Allium hookeri (also youir initial feeling Mark).
He also told me that a preliminary version of a database presenting Gatersleben's taxonomic Allium collection is now available via the Internet:
http://www.ipk-gatersleben.de/databases/allium (http://www.ipk-gatersleben.de/databases/allium)
Thanks Stephen, that's good to know about Dr. Fritsch's assessment of that vegetable allium, the instincts were right but not knowing to what degree there is variability, some aspects of the plant didn't seem right.
You might have missed my prior announcement above on the Gatersleben IPK link, see:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg173150#msg173150
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Yes, I somehow missed a whole series of Allium posts there, despite checking in here most days...
Those shots by Yevgeny Belousov are out of this world - some of the best Allium pictures I've seen!! Re- A. fedtschenkoanum: have you ever seen seed of this one?
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Yes, I somehow missed a whole series of Allium posts there, despite checking in here most days...
Those shots by Yevgeny Belousov are out of this world - some of the best Allium pictures I've seen!! Re- A. fedtschenkoanum: have you ever seen seed of this one?
There are more Alliums depicted on the CDrom that Yevgeny Belousov sells, must get particulars on how to buy the CD. Many of his photos can be seen on the following Russian flora site:
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/search.html?part=0&sample=allium
Click on any of the photo links on the right of given species names, it helps to have Google Translate running.
Also be aware that there are some nomenclatural differences from what is generally accepted.
I was a lucky recipient of some Kazakhstan allium seed, this species included, along with the black-red incarnation A. atrosanguineum. The seed was in very small lots (I think maybe 6 seeds on atrosanguineum) but with luck I can get these things going. I believe Kurt Vickery has collected each of those species too, so keep an eye on his specialty seed list.
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I've just received seed of A. eriocoleum from Kurt, but fedtschenkoanum and atrosanguineum were sadly not on the list.. :'(
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Following up on my earlier post of a small allium from Mongolia with globular florets (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg173263#msg173263), photographed by Panayoti Kelaidis on a trip to Mongolia in 2009, I am reposting the two photos here to more easily compare with a series of links showing 4 species (all related) that were under consideration for this onion's ID. At first I thought it was A. mongolicum, but I'm quite certain it is A. vodopjanovae, a species described by Nikolai Friesen in 1995 splitting off this few-flowered form with semi-nutant flowers from A. mongolicum. Do check out the Allium mongolicum links, why isn't this species in cultivation... it is the most common onion found growing over most of Mongolia, and really adorable in every way.
Allium bellulum
http://www.bioaltai-sayan.ru/regnum/pict-p/photo/Allium_bellulum_fot.jpg
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/69601.html
Allium mongolicum
species desc: http://greif.uni-greifswald.de/floragreif/?flora_search=Taxon&taxon_id=15
photo record: http://greif.uni-greifswald.de/floragreif/?flora_search=Image&record_id=13063
large image: http://greif.uni-greifswald.de/floragreif/floragreif-content/Kr03/25-08-2003-IMG_0774.jpg
large image2: http://greif.uni-greifswald.de/floragreif/floragreif-content/Kr03/17-08-2003-IMG_0441.jpg
roots & bulb coats: http://greif.uni-greifswald.de/floragreif/?flora_search=Image&record_id=10313
http://www.bioaltai-sayan.ru/regnum/pict-p/photo/Allium_mongolicum_fot.jpg
http://www.bjkp.gov.cn/bjkpzc/tszr/zwdg/lsmy/211454.shtml
Allium vodopjanovae
http://www.bioaltai-sayan.ru/regnum/pict-p/photo/Allium_vodopjanovae_fot.jpg
Allium vodopjanovae - zoomable herbarium specimen identified by N. Friesen 2008
http://greif.uni-greifswald.de/floragreif/wp-content/uploads/scan_B12-09/template.php?i=Alli-vodo-GFW-229_88
Allium tenuissimum
http://houmingfei.blogspot.com/2009/04/5_01.html
Update: I have heard back from Dr. Nicolai Friesen, an expert in the genus Allium in such regions as Siberia and Mongolia, and he has confirmed that Panayoti's dwarf pink-flowered Mongolian Allium is A. vodopjanovae.
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Could I please know if Allium henrikii is known by another name. A kind forumist sent me seed and Australia Quarantine has seized them as they are not on the permitted seed list.
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Could I please know if Allium henrikii is known by another name. A kind forumist sent me seed and Australia Quarantine has seized them as they are not on the permitted seed list.
Pat , the correct name for Allium henrikii is A. karataviense ssp . henrikii . A. karataviense is on our permitted list and as a recent act of our Parliament moved that a subspecies of a permitted species is also allowed into the country you should have no problem to have your seed released .
However , good news : Marcus Harvey's new list is at the Printers at the moment and he has a few bulbs for sale . He and Susan are staying with me until tomorrow morning - in case you want to ring me -us tonight .
cheers otto.
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Here is another allium species photographed in Mongolia by Panayoti Kelaidis in 2009.
This allium is surely A. amblyophyllum (platyspathum ssp. amblyophyllum), a species very close to A. carolinianum (among its synonyms are varieties of A. platyspathum, such as A. platyspathum Schrenk var. falcatum Regel), and also close to A. hymenorrhizum.
Allium carolinianum is not recorded for Mongolia, although A. hymenorrhizum is.
Allium amblyophyllum
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/27709.html
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/17930.html
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/24368.html
...photo showing whole plant, and tapered leaf petioles
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/3178.html
Update: I have heard back from Dr. Nicolai Friesen, an expert in the genus Allium in such regions as Siberia and Mongolia, and he has identified Panayoti's Mongolian Allium as A. platyspathum.
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Thanks so much Otto for the details - I have replied separately to Marcus.
I will ring AQIS this afternoon and see how I go.
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I just rang AQIS, quoted the reference, said that henrikii is a ssp of Allium karataviense. She looked it up a list while I waited. Then she said that as it is a part parcel it has to go to head office to be sent on to me. She will get it marked urgent.
I am still reeling in surprise and utter amazement after I did so much work to get all the references etc together and to be told a simple OK. Sometimes things can just slip into place so well. Started my day off on a really positive note.
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I often sow Allium seed in late fall or early winter, but I was surprised to see very quick germination on two species, A. obliquum and A. pseudoflavum. I didn't expect germination this early, nor do I want germination now, as surely many or most of the seedlings will not persist once the real winter temperatures arrive. I don't have a greenhouse nor coldframe, so I'm debating whether to bring these two flats to my basement windowsill for the winter. Thanks to the forumists who shared this seed with me.
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Marc,
have the same problem. Germination of seeds from sowing season 2009(Autumn)/2010(Spring). Put them on the windowswill in a unheated room.
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Update: remember the Allium species from the Caucasus, collected by Magnus Aspaker, a nice pink and white one that has been getting around... StephenB reminded me I was going to see if Dr. Reinhard Fritsch had any ideas about that one, see the diagnostic photos by forumist Arisaema here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg159787#msg159787
I sent off the photos recently to Dr. Fritsch, here's what he reports:
"Concerning the plant from Caucasus, Mr. Jaeger from Giessen (Germany) sent us pictures of the same taxon collected in Georgia, valley of Aragwi river. Some characters are intermediate between A. kunthianum and A. karsianum, but the presence of bulbils in the inflorescence is strange. Mariam Agababian was also not sure about the identity."
I have uploaded the two photos; they do indeed look similar, although in our subject plant from Magnus, looking at Arisaema's photo, in the 2 photos of the inflorescence, I can't tell if I'm seeing bulbils in the dark shadows there, or just more buds... I'm going to assume they are bulbils.
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I've had two new alliums come into flower for the first time and I'm hoping for some confirmation of names!
The first is Allium heldreichii; a cutie at only 15 cm (6")
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And the next came as Allium amethystinum from the AGS Seedex 2005. It's quite tall at over 75cm (3') and quite a deep colour
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cheers
fermi
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Hi all Allium friends,
Thanks a lot for all the great pictures and all the very interesting information you are sharing here.
I hope that someone could help me identify this Allium species which the first picture attached shows.
I has got some characters of Allium wallichii, but with much broader leaves (I think). I don't know what the flowers look like. It was growing on a steep west facing slope at 4200 meters in north Sikkim..
The second picture shows Allium wallichii
Pictures where taken in northern Sikkim at the end of September.
thankful for any thoughts..
Johan
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Here is another close up picture of the Allium sp..
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I hope that someone could help me identify this Allium species which the first picture attached shows.
I has got some characters of Allium wallichii, but with much broader leaves (I think). I don't know what the flowers look like. It was growing on a steep west facing slope at 4200 meters in north Sikkim. The second picture shows Allium wallichii
Pictures where taken in northern Sikkim at the end of September.
Johan
Johan, an ID will be inconclusive without knowing what the flowers are like, but my guess is that it could be a broad-leaf form of Allium wallichii. There is variability in leaf width. In the Flora of China, the leaf description is "Leaves linear to oblong-lanceolate or lanceolate, shorter than to subequaling scape, (2–)5–20 mm wide, midvein distinct, base narrowed into a petiole or not." I can see a distinct midvein in the photo, although I admit the leaves look wider than 2 cm. The plant bears a strong resemblance to Allium wallichii in the Annotated Checklist of the Flowering Plants of Nepal, a neighboring territory.
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=110&taxon_id=200027548
Allium wallichii - large photo - wide leaves
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=45436&flora_id=110
There are two varieties of A. wallichii, var wallichii, and var. platyphyllum (syn: Allium polyastrum var. platyphyllum). Believe it or not, in spite of that name which would make one believe the wide-leaf variety is var. platyphyllum, that variety is separated from var. wallichii on two characteristics, the leaves narrowing to a petiole and the scape covered with leaf sheaths for about 1/2 its length. In fact, both varieties can have wide leaves, and since A. wallichii var. wallichii is reported for Sikkim (var. platyphyllum is not) and in the photo it do not see the leaves sheathing the stem way up to the middle, if it is A. wallichii, it would be var. wallichii.
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200027548
I tried to find a good checklist of the plants of Sikkim, or Sikkim and neighboring territories (Bhutan, Nepal, Tibet), but couldn't find one; if you know of a good one, post it here.
Lastly, without knowing the flower characteristics, there are a few other wide-leaf Allium in the region (including neighboring territories) such as A. prattii. My guess remains: Allium wallichii var. wallichii.
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Here is another close up picture of the Allium sp..
If the very dark color on the pedicels and swelling capsules is an indication, I'd say here again it matches A. wallichii, which is often dark red to near black-red color, or dark purple, including very dark ovaries and developing capsules. Also, the upright fasciculate shape of the inflorescence is characteristic too.
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I tried to find a good checklist of the plants of Sikkim, or Sikkim and neighboring territories (Bhutan, Nepal, Tibet), but couldn't find one; if you know of a good one, post it here.
Mark, no conventional checklist I am aware of but records of the flora of Sikkim were included in the Flora of Bhutan by Grierson and Long published by RBGE.
There is a Digital Flora of Bhutan which gives this for Allium wallichii (alas, without much details, only a picture of the flower): http://cms.cnr.edu.bt/plantdb/index.php?c=items&s=more&id=69
This for Allium macranthum: http://cms.cnr.edu.bt/plantdb/index.php?c=items&s=more&id=71
This for Allium fasciculatum: http://cms.cnr.edu.bt/plantdb/index.php?c=items&s=more&id=70
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Thanks Pascal; previously I spent 30 minutes of so googling, found a few partial plant checklists for parts of Sikkim, but nothing very useful.
I'm fairly sure the plant is A. wallichii; even though the link you provide doesn't have much information, the photo of the inflorescence is upright and characteristic for the species. Initially I too thought of the name A. fasciculatum, but that species has leaves only 2-5 mm wide, and looks rather different, see the photos here:
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200027475
I do not think it can be A. macranthum, one of my favorite allium species (I grow a form from Bhutan); too many characteristics don't match.
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Mark, I just gave these 3 links because they were the only 3 species on the Digital Flora of Bhutan.... ;D
I am not even saying the pix are correct, for Arisaema they mention Arisaema elephas but show a picture of Arisaema speciosum and I know of at least 5 more Arisaema species for Bhutan than the website mentions. According to the FoB 10 Allium species in total for Bhutan.
I just looked in my copy of the Flora of Bhutan and from what I can tell they list the following species for Sikkim:
- Allium prattii (syn A. victorialis auct. non L. var. angustifolium Hook. f.)
- Allium sikkimense (syn. A. kansuense, A. tibeticum) but not in the area Johan has been
- Allium macranthum (syn. A. oviflorum)
- Allium cepa, with the specific note "Though unknown in a wild state, this widely cultivated species is probably derived from a Central Asiatic species, A. oschaninii O. Fedtschenko, but modified into a biennial during some 3000 years of cultivation."
Given the reported area in Sikkim (Yuksum) not the area Johan took the picture, Johan took his pictures deep in N Sikkim.
- Allium wallichii (no distinction beyond species level, very widespread through Sikkim)
- Allium fasciculatum (syn. A. gageanum)
For this last species there is mention of "Specimens from.....Sikkim (Tang ka La N of Zelep La) agree in having tuberous roots but differ in having narrower leaves, lacking persistent basal bristles; umbels fewer-flowered and flowers greenish-yellow. They perhaps represent an undescribed species"
For A. wallichii the leaves are described as "Leaves 4-5, basal, keeled beneath, to 51 x 0.7-2.5 cm." Additional info: flowering July-October, alt 2670-4420 m.
I just give this for your information because you apparantly don't have the Flora of Bhutan (Vol. 3 Part 1, p. 76-81), I know absolutely zip about Allium other than that I like them in my omelet... ;)
Going through the descriptions in the FoB however I would say your assesment and Johan's initial identification seems correct.
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For A. wallichii the leaves are described as "Leaves 4-5, basal, keeled beneath, to 51 x 0.7-2.5 cm." Additional info: flowering July-October, alt 2670-4420 m.
I just give this for your information because you apparantly don't have the Flora of Bhutan (Vol. 3 Part 1, p. 76-81), I know absolutely zip about Allium other than that I like them in my omelet... ;)
Going through the descriptions in the FoB however I would say your assesment and Johan's initial identification seems correct.
Thanks Pascal. I like seeing the leaf description of A. wallichii you found, as it increases the leaf width to 2.5 cm (all other book parrot the same 20 mm or 2 cm). The altitude and flowering time make sense too, as the pedicels and developing capsules are still "in the green" or with fresh color, with Johan mentioning it was in late September.
No, I do not have Flora of Bhutan, wish I did.
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Mark & Pascal,
For A. wallichii the leaves are described as "Leaves 4-5, basal, keeled beneath, to 51 x 0.7-2.5 cm." Additional info: flowering July-October, alt 2670-4420 m.
I just give this for your information because you apparantly don't have the Flora of Bhutan (Vol. 3 Part 1, p. 76-81), I know absolutely zip about Allium other than that I like them in my omelet... ;)
Going through the descriptions in the FoB however I would say your assesment and Johan's initial identification seems correct.
Thanks Pascal. I like seeing the leaf description of A. wallichii you found, as it increases the leaf width to 2.5 cm (all other book parrot the same 20 mm or 2 cm). The altitude and flowering time make sense too, as the pedicels and developing capsules are still "in the green" or with fresh color, with Johan mentioning it was in late September.
Thanks alot for the help.
My first impression (at sight) of the plant was that it must be close to Allium wallichii. But what didn't fit in my mind of a typical Allium wallichii was the very broad leaves. I am quite sure that the leaves was as broad as 4-5 cm. I also think that it has autumn colors in a way that I havn't seen on other forms of wallichii before.
For what I understand it must be a very broadleaved form of Allium wallichii.
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Thanks alot for the help.
My first impression (at sight) of the plant was that it must be close to Allium wallichii. But what didn't fit in my mind of a typical Allium wallichii was the very broad leaves. I am quite sure that the leaves was as broad as 4-5 cm. I also think that it has autumn colors in a way that I havn't seen on other forms of wallichii before.
For what I understand it must be a very broadleaved form of Allium wallichii.
Well, 4-5 cm is quite a jump in leaf size (width) compared to 2.5 cm. As you suggest, maybe it is a very broadleaved form of Allium wallichii.
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Update: I have heard back from Dr. Nicolai Friesen, an expert in the genus Allium in such regions as Siberia and Mongolia, and he has identified Panayoti Kelaidis' Mongolian Allium as A. platyspathum... correction made to my original post.
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg173759#msg173759
Dr. Friesen has confirmed as correct my ID of A. vodopjanovae on Panayoti's small pink-flowered Mongolian allium
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg173576#msg173576
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Update: remember the Allium species from the Caucasus, collected by Magnus Aspaker, a nice pink and white one that has been getting around... StephenB reminded me I was going to see if Dr. Reinhard Fritsch had any ideas about that one, see the diagnostic photos by forumist Arisaema here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg159787#msg159787
I sent off the photos recently to Dr. Fritsch, here's what he reports:
"Concerning the plant from Caucasus, Mr. Jaeger from Giessen (Germany) sent us pictures of the same taxon collected in Georgia, valley of Aragwi river. Some characters are intermediate between A. kunthianum and A. karsianum, but the presence of bulbils in the inflorescence is strange. Mariam Agababian was also not sure about the identity."
I have uploaded the two photos; they do indeed look similar, although in our subject plant from Magnus, looking at Arisaema's photo, in the 2 photos of the inflorescence, I can't tell if I'm seeing bulbils in the dark shadows there, or just more buds... I'm going to assume they are bulbils.
Very interesting. My plant certainly have bulbils, and lots of them . I never found any seeds.