The naming of crocus

[daveyp1970]

I am a bit confused about why somebody would name some mathewii Dream Dancer and its not clonal,so if you was to name a clone from that cross(because thats what the name indicates to me its a seed strain and should be labeled as a seed strain and a cop out because when your corm arrives and flowers not what your expecting it's tough) would it be then Crocus Mathewii Dream Dancer 'David's Clone 1' Can somebody explain the reason behind this other than money?

[Gerry Webster]

Davey - I've no doubt that money plays a significant role.
If you can be bothered to wade through it, 'The International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants' may shed some light. Try searching for "clones" or "cultivar names".

www.actahort.org/chronica/pdf/sh_10.pdf

[Ian Y]

Davey,

I have 'Dream Dancer' as a clone I have not had seed set on it yet so do not know what the seedlings would be like.

Any seedlings raised from 'Dream Dancer' would have to be just Crocus mathewii until such time as they flower and the offspring assessed.

The rules, as I remember, would allow selected seedlings that are near identical to the parent to also carry the cultivar name.

Sometimes after considerable selection and breeding a stable line of dark flowered forms could appear then they could be given a common name but again the proviso is always there that any rogues that stray from the selected colour range is removed.

I can think of Lewisia and Corydalis where there are seed lines where the majority of seedlings will conform to a fixed colour range.
I was used to calling these seed 'strains' but the code referred to by Gerry does not allow that term to be used any more.

[John Aipassa]

David,

I understand your frustration. I also bought 'Dream Dancer' two years ago and expected it to be the same as the photo which accompanied the description. It turned out to be a much lighter form . Light pink with hardly any dark throat or tube. Although the description stated 'Dream Dancer' being a strain I didn't expect it to be that much different than the picture shown.

So as Ian mentioned it is nothing other but mathewii; a pink form that is. All are seedlings from a very beautiful pink form, which was named 'Dream Dancer' but given the same name, whether it resembles the parent or not. Showing the photo of the most beautiful one, but supplying all kinds of pink(ish) forms is for commercial sake only I think, but than again, with Cypripedium hybrids it works the same way. Named hybrids are not clonal. They are all strains. You can get beautiful specimens, but also average ones, so what is right and what is wrong?

I am now searching for a  " 'Dream Dancer' " that looks like the pictures of 'Dream Dancer' shown in catalogues. Or another bright colored pink mathewii with a very dark throat. I have recently asked the seller of my existing Dream Dancers, if he can supply the good colored ones. The answer was, that they didn't separate any good forms from the lighter forms, so they couldn't tell for sure  ......I didn't bother to take the chance again.

I will sit and wait until an opportunity comes or I will have to raise some seedlings myself.

[Gerry Webster]

As Ian has noted, the International Code does not recognise the concept of a 'strain' & states that the term should not be used. I presume that many nurserymen are unfamiliar with the  code - even though it it is available free on the internet -  or choose to ignore it 

[Janis Ruksans]

I baught 10 DREAM DANCER corms this autumn. All blooms now and are identical. I baught them from Antoine. So it must be clean clone.
Janis

[Janis Ruksans]

Picture of my DREAM DANCER
Janis

[daveyp1970]

I baught 10 DREAM DANCER corms this autumn. All blooms now and are identical. I baught them from Antoine. So it must be clean clone.
Janis

And yet another person is  selling it as just a named group(i think the chap who named it i might be wrong) and not clone(the chap calls it a strain himself even like Gerry says this shouldn't be allowed) Janis surely all sellers should be on the same sheet and then there would be no confusion and from what i can tell the name was never given to a clone if so who named and registered it,could somebody tell me please.
Also, Janis, John bought it and it flowered different to the description so surely it is not clean yet, 10 corms is really not that big enough a number to say it's clean if you 100,000 identical i would say yes you have a point.

[John Aipassa]

Janis, your 'Dream Dancer' is certainly nice, but is it the true one? It still differs from other 'Dream Dancer' forms pictured on other nursery websites. Even Ian's form, which is showed on several of his bulb logs (which is a very beautiful form in my eyes), is different than yours' in my opinion.

So who was the name giver? Was it Antoine Hoog? If so, than his form must be the true 'Dream Dancer'. That said, other propagators and/or sellers must have decided to name their pink forms 'Dream Dancer' too and maybe that's where the confusion has started? .



My main problem is that as a buyer I can be disappointed because of the promise of a beautiful deep pink form pictured, but am supplied with a dull one instead  .

[Janis Ruksans]

John,
I don't know who is raiser, but Antoines plants are uniform, so they certainly are clone. Regarding "pink" - what is pink in Crocus? Mostly it is gardeners dream about pink. Only real pinkish known by me belongs to C. tommasinianus. They more approximates to pink, may be one clone of Crocus tauricus has pinkish shade in my collection, but all other pinks and reds in Genus Crocus are only dreams. I saw hundreds and hundreds of mathewii in wild and no one were really pink. There were many shades of lilac - lighter and darker, whites with throat very large and dark and only quite pale in other plants. It is important to know variability, but for gardener most important are most ornamental forms. My favourites are C. mathewii 'Brian Mathew' - white with large very dark throat and tube, but slow increaser, 'Carin' - with lilac petals color and good dark throat selected in Gothenburg BG and may be a pair of my selections. But from mine best in color and good increaser has something narrow petals - so it may be will go back in mixed forms.
Which ones are better - pure white or lilac - depends from combination of colors, but too many selected forms are not needed.
Janis

[annew]

Which ones are better is also personal taste - I much prefer the contrast between the white and deep purple in the 'normal' form.

[Mavers]

Are you all growing this crocus outside or under glass?

[John Aipassa]

Outside.

I am no good with pot culturing so I try everything in the garden. Sandy soil with lots of humus and the Crocus planted in a sunny/semi shade spot under a tree (Acer).

My form is a good increaser in the garden. From 2 to 13 corms in just two growing seasons and the last one had a very tough winter.

[Mavers]

I'm growing mine outside John.........my first year growing Dream Dancer so I hope I've chosen the right spot for it & it increases like yours has.

[John Aipassa]

Good luck Mike. It should do well.