Problem with peony! Lack of watering in the summer?

[Joakim B]

Dear all
I hope to learn what is the problem with the peonies I grow in Portugal since they do not develop well during the summer, it is only during spring they have nice foliage. During summer they are more or less just surviving not continuing to grow.
The peonias are "tree peonies" three seedlings from Sweden that are single flowers that can be in red orange or even yellow some 5-7 cm across and two are garden center versions that have not developed well since I bought them.
They are watered well during spring both by me and by rain, during summer they get less watering both from me and from rain. The soil is well drained due to the neighbour is 10 m below behind a wall. In spring  there is no competision but in summer the peonies get crowded by dahlias and other plants but none is closer than 10 cm to the plants so it is more of giving shadow.
What should I do to have a longer growth? I have not seen many peonies here in Portugal but I see a lot in Hungary and it can get equally warm there and it has not been so warm yet in Portugal but the peonies are still a bit tired.
Any tip is wellcome
Kind regards from a wet and cold (20C) Portugal
Joakim

[Lesley Cox]

Paeonies like a really cold winter Joakim. Perhaps yours are too warm when they want to be cold and so try to die back too early?

[Joakim B]

Thanks for the answer Lesley but they do look the best after the winter in early spring so they do get some "rest" but would they already now be semi dormant due to a lack of a winter? In Sweden they are still in their prime and it is at least 20-25C there now. But maybe they are stressed into rest/lack of growth now here in Portugal?
Does peonies grow during the summer? Maybe I am not used to that the "summer" comes so early in Portugal (April) while in Sweden it comes in June/July with the flowers of the peony lactiflora and the rest. They do start growth much earlier in the year here in Portugal compared with Sweden and Hungary.
Kind regards
Joakim

[Lesley Cox]

Here, paeonies flower in the spring to early summer, so by the time they finish flowering, I doubt if there is much new top growth, rather putting energy into making new growing shoots for the next year. Like many perennials they look quite tatty after flowering.

[Joakim B]

Thanks for the help Lesley
I think they are just earlier here in Portugal than what I am used to. I also think they are a bit crowded and will try to give them more space.

Regarding planting new grafted plants I have read some places that they should be planted so that the graft is in the soil  and by tilting it (maybe as much as 45 degrees) the graft also develops roots. Does anyone have any experience with that (tilting and getting roots)? I have generally planted tree peonies at the same hight as they are in the pot. That is the advice for p. lactiflora but I have now understod that tree peonies should be planted deaper.
In one plant that I bought the "root part" is an old stem that is a bit open and I am a bit afraid that it will rot in the ground. Do the forumists think that that will be the case if I plant deep?
Have anyone tried to grow them in pots/vases/planters? If so how big do the pots need to be?
Sorry for the many questiones but I hope to get some answers so that I can start planting soon (Sunday).

Kind regards
Joakim

[David Shaw]

I will ony try to answere the last part of your query, Joakim, and advise that tree peonies develope a very big and solid root system that goes down deeply into the earth. I would not think that they would b suitable for pot culture.

[Ian Y]

Joakim
Planting peonies so the graft is below the ground is supposed to stop the root stock budding and taking the strength from the grafted clone.
I have never believed it necessary or benneficial - I much prefer to watch the plant and if the rootstock does start to sprout I just knock off the buds.
With one grafted peony we planted the graft died out in the first year and the root stock has given us a lovely form of P. delavayi.
I have no experience of growing them in pots.

[mark smyth]

I read somewhere recently that there is a new range of tree peonies that are suitable for pot culture but only for large pots

[Joakim B]

Thanks for the replies
If I may be the Devils Advocate : Ian would the graft, if it would have been planted below ground have survived by coming new from the roots of its own?
The recomendetions about the graft below have been Swedish where there is a risk of late frost or cold and no protective snow can make the sun damage the plant above ground. If the graft would have roots of its own it may come back. That is the theory. I do not know if the graft makes new roots and if it is worth the risk. Before the Chinese tree peonies that exist "every where" many tree peonies were grafted on herbaceus peony. Those are a bit boring to get instead of an expensive treepeony. This happend to my parents 20 years ago. It is the only single they have and it is lanky and not really a good plant but they will not take it up any way.

I will not plant the peonies in pots but in the lawn in full sun. They will get better soil.
I am also thinking on having som clematies in the lawn so that they can enter a Magnolia grandiflora. Would that be a good idea.
The alternatives for the clematies would be a huge pot  60 cm high and 70 cm wide and then let it climb the wall together with a wilsteria and a jasmin.
All of this in Portugal.
Thanks again for the advice
Joakim

[Ian Y]

Oh you devil.

There are many bits of so called advice that are repeated constantly in horticulture without ever being tested out.
I am just the one to challange them as I can never take advice without trying it out for myself.

If the grafted plant would root that easily they would never go to the cost of grafting them in the first place - I think it extremely unlikely that the grafted stem will root.

In our case I think the graft simply failed as it died in the first year never getting chance to even produce a single leaf.

[Joakim B]

After looking around I have seen that most tree peonies are grafted to herbaseus peomies and hence the roots are not that interesting.
I also found this link where it is well described.
I planted the peonies below the graft point and even at a slight angel to even further promote growth.
The link may even convince the BD of the soundness of this ! ?
http://www.paeonia.com/html/peonies/botany.htm

Kind regards
Joakim

[andré B]

After having followed this forum for a while I would like to chime in now as a new member. Joakim your peonies from Sweden are likely Paeonia lutea (yellow) or delavayi (darkish red) or hybrids of these which are nowadays all lumped into lutea. Tree peonies should normally grow well in Portugal as long as there is some reasonable winter cold. In general tree peonies need less winter cold than herbaceous peonies so if any herbacious peonies grow in that area the tree peonies should do well.
Peonies however hate competition and should be kept really free from other plants and certainly trees and bushes. As tree peonies will develop an enormous root system over time they can stand drought quite well and normal planting distance is 1.20 to 1.50 m as they will grow into large bushes (1 to 1.50m high so definitely no alpines).
As for the tree peonies you buy in shops and garden centres these are mostly grafted cultivars from Japan or China. These need to be planted so deep that the grafting point is at least 15 cm under the soil surface in order for the graft to develop its own roots. And Ian yes the grafts do develop their own roots after some time (own experience) and it is even advisable to cut away the nurse root after some decent own rootsystem has developed.
However these relatively cheap tree peonies are often diseased and have often been out of the soil for long periods during transport from asia and therefore do not grow on very well.
Tree peonies can be grown in (big) pots but will not florish for very long (more than three years) and will not develop into nice multistemmed plants.
Peonies are also plants for patient people because they can grow into old and marvelously beautiful plants but it takes a while to get there.
Joakim a lawn would be a good position as long as it is sunny for most of the day and there are no trees or bushes nearby.
Sorry to introduce myself with such a long message but i am as you will have guessed a peony man and i could not keep quiet. Apart from peonies i like woodland plants, bulbs in particular Corydalis and alpines and even grow some Galanthus (less than 50 cultivars so not seriously infected). In general i tend to be inquisitive (stubborn) and try to grow things that are said to be impossible in our soil/climate/ etc. As i live very close to the coast i often get away growing things that are reportedly not hardy in the netherlands.
Finally my wife is called Maggi(e) as well so that makes me a sort of Bulb Despot as well does n't it?

[Maggi Young]

Welcome, André , we are very glad to have your input to the Forum.
And my very best wishes to you Maggie, also!

we must take a closer look at  some of our older grafted paeonias to see if they are indeed making their own roots... we have not noticed any sign of this so far. Paeonia are such beautiful plants we should all be growing some!

[ian mcenery]

Joakim

The first tree paeony I ever had I planted with the graft above the ground and it did nothing but sulk for a couple of years. When I obtained a Paeony rockii I asked Will McLewin who is a rather knowlegeable grower of Paeonies (book out recently on Paeonies) and species Hellebores and he told me that the graft should be underground because the scion would make its own roots within 2/3 years. I replanted with the rootstock below ground and it is making good progress but of course without digging it up I can't verify that the plant is on its own roots. However as most grafts for other plants are planted above ground it does seem logical that the scion might root if it was to be in contact with the soil as the stem would be in a position where it could make roots.

[Joakim B]

Thanks for the very enlightning aswer André and thanks for addisional info Ian.
I did plant the peonies deep but there are some Magnolias and Camelias around so they are getting sun alot but not all the time.
Since I was away for a while the plant did not get enough water so they sulked a bit now. When first planting them they looked better than in the pots.
Regarding my "Swedish" treepeonies I think that they are planted to close and with to much competision. I can take away some of the competition but I will also need to separate them more or could 4 small plants be left in place to entagle into one? They might have different colour there are on the parent plants yellow orange and red flowers so the ones I brought may be a mix and maybe it is fun to have it together. I would be a bit unhappy to give away and then see that I "lost" a color.

André as You might have seen there are more people interested in peonias so one more is more then wellcome and I hope to see some pictures in the spring.

If i should decide to move after hearing peoples oppinion on the entangelment when should I move? I have not seen that many peonies around here but some so it is possible to get them into flowering size.

Kindest regards
Joakim