Dactylorhiza majalis?

[t5247rb]

Hi,

I would call these Dactylorhiza majalis. Does anyone have another opinion?

Thanks,
Rob.

[Anthony Darby]

I would call them Dactylorhiza fuchsii.

[Gerhard Raschun]

It should be Dact. fuchsii: You can find Dact. majalis in flower in May, flowers are a little bit smaller....

now it is possible to find Dact. fuchsii in flower on different places

[t5247rb]

Just to clarify, photo date is June 09, 2007.

[Anthony Darby]

Where did you see them Rob?

[t5247rb]

In Southern Germany (Allgäu region) at 1157m elevation.

[gote]

I do not really believe that the various dactylorhizas deserve species rank but anyway:
Fuchsii has rather blunt leaves and the bottom leaf is very spatulate or toungelike.
Majalis has more pointed leaves and since I cannot see the bottom leaf clearly in the pictures I would believe majalis.
The same specimen may shange caracter with age and location if moved to a different place so some of the caracters quoted in keys are unreliable.
The picture I hope to be able to post is a plant I call fuchsii from June 16th. This is a mature large plant.
Unfortunately I have no good pic of majalis.
Göte

[Anthony Darby]

I don't think the shape of the leaves is really a reliable indicator as fuchsii I have growing in the garden has narrow pointed leaves. In Scotland majalis is only found in the Outer hebrides and is a short plant with 'broad pointed sheathing leaves' which are heavily blotched. The flowers are really dark 'flushed purple, similar to purpurella. I am not familiar with continental forms. Very robust plants are often hybrids, which further muddies the water. Some books even put fuchsii as a form of maculata?

[Anthony Darby]

Here are two forms of fuchsii in flower now. The first just turn up as a seedling in a pot of something else and has now been separated out. The second was purchased as Dactylorhiza fuchsii 'Hyperchromat' seedling, with the promise that it would look like its parents. Well, it doesn't!

[t5247rb]

Just noticing that the Dactylorhiza Fucsii pix posted have a lighter pinkish color than the orchid I discovered in the Allgäu.  The Allgäu orchid is noticeably darker.  The color of the Fuchsii orchids posted here are consistent with what I would identify as Fuchsii in Germany.

[gote]

The leaf shape is definitely a better criterion than is flower colour that can be anything between dark red and white in some of the Dactylorhizas.

A big problem, however, is that criteria as leaf shape and stem hollowness change with age. A young plant will have more pointed leaves and solid stem. The same plant will have broader leaves and hollow stem a few years later. In spite of this some keys uses hollowness of stem as criterion for majalis.

The plant in question was in Allgäu not in the UK. Majalis grows in Switzerland more or less on the border to Allgäu so majalis is not unlikely from geographical reasons
 
Originally these were all Orchis maculata L. and the Lauber/Wagener Flora Helvetica consider fuchsii as a form of maculata and give the spatulate lowest leaf as one of the criteria.
However, Orchids are very popular among splitters.

By the way:
#1: How do you KNOW that your fuchsiis are fuchsii?
#2: What makes you believe these are fuchsii and not majalis?

I admit that I have not read the original description of fuchsii (nor majalis) but books give the lower spatulate leaf as distinctive.

Those labeled as majalis in the Copenhagen botanical garden (where they grow well in a wet meadow) do look (as far as I can recall) like the Allgäu photos.

Thus far we do not need to ration water in Sweden if you know what I mean 

Göte


 

[gote]

Post script.
Flora Helvetica states that in majalis, the lower bracts are longer than the flowers just as in the pictures of the Allgäu specimen.
Majalis is usually red not pink (as in Allgäu) (Swiss flora and Copenhagen)
Majalis has 3-6 leaves on the stem whereas  maculata sensu lato has 6-10 (and shorter bracts).
Your fuchsiis look just as maculata v maculata does in my nature and in the Swiss flora.
Fuchsii is said to have much bigger central lobe to the flower whereas maculata has a smaller central lobe.
My "fuchsii" has a smaller central lobe even if not as small as in your fuchsii.

I saw a lot of Dactylorhizas in Catalonia ten years ago and the population varied continuously from one "species" to another with all sorts of intermediate forms.

I hope I have confused the issue   

Göte

[Anthony Darby]

I know my plants are not Dactylorhiza majalis because it does not (naturally) occur within 100 miles of my garden. Maculata is a small plant found in bogs around Dunblane. Fuchsii occurs in more cultivated areas, especially grassland, verges and woodland edges where it is found with D. purpurella. I had originally labelled my seedling as D. maculata and may revisit it once I have unscrambled my brain and re-read Göte's instructions.

[gote]

Anthony,
I expressed myself badly. My apologies.
I meant "how do you know the Allgäu specimen are not majalis"
I certainly agree that yours are not majalis. I think that they are maculata v. maculata.

Here (I mean on my property) it (m v m) grows in open woods that are not very moist. I have never seen it in a bog.
The largest examples I have seen wild, however, (50 years ago, so they were Orchis maculata at that time) were in rather moist pockets of granite rock in an old open Pinus sylvestris forest. The soil was mainly decomposited granite and pine needles (and I assume lichen and moss) i.e typical pine forest soil - here at least.

In Sweden it is not uncommon that it grows 40cm tall (in the wild).

Druce described Orhis fuchsii in 1914. In 1962 Soo changed it to Dactylorhiza. The Swedish Museum of Natural History claims that fuchsii (which is rare in Sweden) is to close to maculata to have species status. They thus agree with Flora Helvetica.

The dactylorhizas are probably God's gift to botanists so that they can be employed for ever; splitting and lumping.

I am a lumper but very keen on having clones or lines with known provenience (which I seldom get)

In the present taxonomical situation (=confusion) we cannot write D. maculata if we mean 'm v m' since it could also mean sensu lato. This is an added problem when reading up the literature.

I hope that I add to confusion.

Göte

 

 

[Anthony Darby]

Here are some Dactylorhiza fuchsii photographed yesterday in the same patch of rough grass about a mile from my house.