Crocus from SW Turkey Feb-Mar 2009

[Thomas Huber]

Great photos, Dave - many thanks for sharing them with us!

[Luc Gilgemyn]

Great report Dave !
Wonderful pictures - I think I love all biflorus types !
It was well worth the wait !

[Arda Takan]

Arda, you have these beautiful plants available to you every day. Lucky you.

I know, but I wish I had the chance to use this opportunity. I don't have time/money to visit these places at least for now.

Arda, Welcome! This is the realy best forum for bulbous plants as you see here. You will find many
friends in love with bulbs

Hello and thanks! Our paths have crossed once again

[DaveM]

Thanks for the kind comments re pix.

Tony and Ibrahim - I have to admit that I hadn't been very observant by not noticing the extra tepals. I know this is common in some plants, for example we saw large populations of Anemone coronaria with a huge range of petal numbers. But in crocus, how common is this?? I've not noticed it in the species and varieties I grow - but then...... would I ??

[DaveM]

Ibrahim

This is the first time I have seen these species in the wild whereas you have greater experience. However, our leaders have seen a lot of these different biflorus subspecies, AND we did use the Flora. We looked very carefully at what I have called C biflorus subsp crewei, including at the character of the style with a hand lens. I understand that in some populations crewei can be the colour I've shown, though you are right it is typically white. I am convinced that it is not isauricus: I showed a typical isauricus in another post and this has yellow anthers, though the grey stripe that it should have is not obvious (not black as in my crewei). Funnily enough, the immediate reaction of several of us at the time was that this crewei is reminiscent of C wattiorum, but of course that is an autumn flowering species. I showed wattiorum in a previous post a while ago so I'll post the two side by side for comparison. (The colours are much nearer than these would suggest)

Anyway, whatever the true affinity of this species, I think we can agree that it is a splendid plant!?

[BULBISSIME]

Dave ,
thank's again for your pictures !
Crocus baytopiorum in the wild in fantastic for me !!
Thank's for sharing so nice pictures.

[DaveM]

I'm glad you think so too, Fred. The colour is magical and somehow hard to describe truly. Any thoughts on why it should be  a scree dweller??

[DaveM]

Ibrahim

Oops, I may have misled you with respect of the location where we saw C biflorus subsp crewei. I've just rechecked my field notes and it was at a place called Derekoyu, in the mountains north of Alanya. Not sure whether this is strictly Antalya province.

I'm sorry to hear that you had a leaner time than I with the flowers. Just to remind you of the winter conditions and give the others a sense of our frustration, I've posted a winter scene. But courtesy of information from the hotelier where we stayed in Ibradi, down in the niche between the snow bank and the rock bluff in the foreground there were the first of the snowdrops..... Galanthus elwesii

[tonyg]

Thanks for the kind comments re pix.
Tony and Ibrahim - I have to admit that I hadn't been very observant by not noticing the extra tepals. I know this is common in some plants, for example we saw large populations of Anemone coronaria with a huge range of petal numbers. But in crocus, how common is this?? I've not noticed it in the species and varieties I grow - but then...... would I ??

Extra petals is something which does happen occasionally in cultivation.  Usually it is a one-off seasonal thing perhaps caused by abnormal conditions at the time of flower bud initiation (end of previous growing season/during dormancy).  However there is the chrysanthus form/cultivar known as Goldmine which does produce 'double' flowers every year.
You have seen two plants with the same 'mutation' in the wild.  As they appear similar and are close enough to be from clonal increase there is room to speculate that this might be the 'normal' flower for these corms rather than a seasonal occurrence.
..... You'll have to take us back next year for another look

[DaveM]

Thanks, Tony. Interesting. Back next year? maybe ...... but probably later. There is just so much to see in that part of Turkey, of which the crocus are just a part  .

[I.S.]

Dave, I have seen before the pictures of your crewei 25 km from north east from Alanya. This area belongs to the Antalya province and in my folders there is no record for C. biflorus subsp. crewei in this province.
What I know;
Leaves 2-3(-4), 1.5-2 mm broad; anthers blackish-maroon (S.W. Anatolia) . b. subsp. crewei 
Leaves usually 4-7; anthers yellow but often with agreyisii connective; filaments 4-7 mm, filiform (S.W. & S. Anatolia) A. subsp. issauricus
What I have seen as crewei two weeks ago no one have more then 3 leafs but some of yours seems to have more.
I want to attach two pics of same crocus which taken in north of Alanya by my friend who live there.
I have named these as C. biflorus subsp. isauricus

[Janis Ruksans]

Dave I think you are right at least partly - it isn't isauricus and more close to crewei, but locality, color - we still very little know Turkish crocuses and their distribution
Ibrahim - your pictures just confirmed Dave's naming - look on leaves and compare them with flower size and you can judge appr. about their relative width - it is not easy on picture but you clearly can see that Daves plants has comparatively much wider leaves than on your picture of isauricus.
crewei has 2-3 leaves up to 2 mm wide
isauricus - usually 4 -7 leaves and they are only 0.5 - 1 mm wide
Janis

[I.S.]

Janis, Thank you very much. For me it is important to know your decision, so you are saying mines are isauricus and for Dave's are creweii! I tought they could be same. They have photographed nearly same area. This area is quite east of Antalya, in this case I will enlage the distribution of crewei untill that point.
If I have any chance one day to see that location I will check again.

Dave, I will ask second thing about location of C. biflorus subsp. nubigena! which side of Antalya?
I know this biflorus grup is very complex but I have to study very well on because I can see everywhere somethings from this grup.
No sight! about C. paschei with golden throat and C. kerndorffiorum showy style! They sould been somewhere on your way

[Janis Ruksans]

Janis, Thank you very much. For me it is important to know your decision, so you are saying mines are isauricus and for Dave's are creweii! I tought they could be same. They have photographed nearly same area. This area is quite east of Antalya, in this case I will enlage the distribution of crewei untill that point.
If I have any chance one day to see that location I will check again.

Dave, I will ask second thing about location of C. biflorus subsp. nubigena! which side of Antalya?
I know this biflorus grup is very complex but I have to study very well on because I can see everywhere somethings from this grup.
No sight! about C. paschei with golden throat and C. kerndorffiorum showy style! They sould been somewhere on your way

Ibrahim, I'm not 100% sure that it is crewei - possibly something new but not isauricus.
Janis

[DaveM]

Thanks, Ibrahim and Janis for your comments. Interesting. Your pictures, Ibrahim are splendid. Why do you say this is isauricus - the first clearly has black anthers - not as strong as the ones I illustrated but nevertheless black? I didn't think that isauricus had such a character (I realise that this is only one character and there are others to distinguish these - including a distinctive appearance to the surface of the style which of course we can't see on any of our photos). Also I don't think there's much of a problem with distribution as this locality is not that far from other well known occurrences of crewei - maybe not in Antalya province but not far away.

Hmmmm. Perhaps this is getting far too complicated for my simple brain - all this discussion goes to prove is that biflorus is a very variable species. As a lumper at heart maybe we should stick to that. However, whatever our opinions on the naming of this, the plant I illustrated would make a very fine introduction to cultivation!!!