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Author Topic: Crocus Year 2021  (Read 15657 times)

Janis Ruksans

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Re: Crocus Year 2021
« Reply #210 on: December 24, 2021, 05:36:20 AM »
Dear Crocus enthusiasts,

Although I find these sold as 'C. clusii' flowers very appealing I have my doubts whether indeed 'C. clusii' is the correct name.
It's quite a vigorous grower; perhaps they are hybrids with an unidentified parent or a form of either C. salzmannii or C. serotinus?
In short I am a bit puzzled and hoping perhaps any of the more experienced 'crocophiles' recognizes it?
I can't see the branching of stigma and of course corm tunics as well but by brief look they resembles C. speciosus.
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Janis Ruksans

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Re: Crocus Year 2021
« Reply #211 on: December 24, 2021, 05:48:58 AM »
Now all my crocus (and other bulb) beds are covered with 2 layers of night-frost protection film (the thickest variant - 50 g/sq.m.). Crocuses below feel perfectly. Just yesterday in International Rock Gardening were published 3 new crocus species. One of them was originally collected already many years ago, but I simply hadn't time to work on it - actually waited for some Turkish botanist could publish it, but not seeing this (although I shared information, and even got from them confirmation that this really is new species) decided finally to publish it. By flowers it something resembles C. mathewii but has coarsely reticulated corm tunics as common in C. cancellatus group. New Crocus erolii was named after Professor of Istanbul University Osman Erol, who published several new Crocus species, but now not more works on them. Crocus homeri from Chios Island is named after ancient Greek poet Homer and was known for long, again I waited for its publication by Greek botanists, but not seeing, finally published by myself.
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Janis Ruksans

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Re: Crocus Year 2021
« Reply #212 on: December 24, 2021, 05:56:03 AM »
On the first picture clone of Crocus homeri grown in Gothenburg BG - just this insisted me to visit Chios Island several times to make research on this crocus with black anthers (not in all plants, but majority has such anthers).
The third new-comer comes from Kos Island and was found there by Greek nature enthusiast Theodoro Samaras who sent me its pictures this autumn asking for name. I immediately suspected that it is something very special and invited Theo to join me in travel to Kos where he showed me this crocus and it was in full bloom, allowing to get full impression about its features and variability, confirming that it really is new species and I named it after its discoverer Theo Samaras. On pictures Crocus samarasii, its habitat and Theo picturing his crocus at locus classicus.
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David2carver

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Re: Crocus Year 2021
« Reply #213 on: December 27, 2021, 01:05:20 PM »
Crocus Sunspot, slugs have taken a fancy to it too

Maggi Young

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Re: Crocus Year 2021
« Reply #214 on: December 27, 2021, 03:55:36 PM »
Crocus Sunspot, slugs have taken a fancy to it too
Lovely early flowers, David - pity that the slugs never take time off!
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

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Margaret Thorne

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Re: Crocus Year 2021
« Reply #215 on: December 27, 2021, 04:38:57 PM »

The third new-comer comes from Kos Island and was found there by Greek nature enthusiast Theodoro Samaras who sent me its pictures this autumn asking for name. I immediately suspected that it is something very special and invited Theo to join me in travel to Kos where he showed me this crocus and it was in full bloom, allowing to get full impression about its features and variability, confirming that it really is new species and I named it after its discoverer Theo Samaras. On pictures Crocus samarasii, its habitat and Theo picturing his crocus at locus classicus.
In autumn 2014, David and I visited Kos and on 10th and 19th November climbed to the top of Mt. Dikeos where we found two species of Crocus which we identified as C. mazziaricus and C. pallasii. Do the latter (photos below) fall within your circumscription of C. samarasii, Janis, and if so, please could you clarify how they differ from C. pallasii? They were found at an altitude of 750-804 metres.
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Margaret Thorne

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Re: Crocus Year 2021
« Reply #216 on: December 27, 2021, 05:05:55 PM »
We regularly show the above photographs to various SRGC members and Rock Garden Groups in a presentation ‘Autumn Bulbs of the Aegean’ which also includes other Crocus species on islands from which they have not been recorded. So, for example, what we would call Crocus pallasii also occurs on Kalimnos and Fourni, C. tournefortii is on Nisyros and C. cartwrightianus on Idra. These islands are not well botanised in autumn and we try to encourage others to collect more records. If members thought they were going to be finding new species on every island they visited, there might be more interest! Here are a few Crocus photos from Kalimnos from which C. mazziaricus is the only Crocus species recorded in the ‘Atlas of the Aegean Flora’.
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Janis Ruksans

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Re: Crocus Year 2021
« Reply #217 on: December 28, 2021, 06:46:21 AM »
We regularly show the above photographs to various SRGC members and Rock Garden Groups in a presentation ‘Autumn Bulbs of the Aegean’ which also includes other Crocus species on islands from which they have not been recorded. So, for example, what we would call Crocus pallasii also occurs on Kalimnos and Fourni, C. tournefortii is on Nisyros and C. cartwrightianus on Idra. These islands are not well botanised in autumn and we try to encourage others to collect more records. If members thought they were going to be finding new species on every island they visited, there might be more interest! Here are a few Crocus photos from Kalimnos from which C. mazziaricus is the only Crocus species recorded in the ‘Atlas of the Aegean Flora’.

C. mazziaricus sensu lato is only on picture 76.0212 (Kalimnos), all others are "pallasii sensu lato". Note the position of stigma on other pictures – on Kalimnos it invariably overpass tips of anthers. On Kos plants (Crocus samarasii) stigma at flower opening always ends at middle of anthers and corm tunics are different as well.
Actually I think that C. mazziaricus is typical Pellopones species. Plants more to North in "main" Greece and Islands looks as different species, but there much deeper research is needed.
Relating "pallasii" - typical pallasii is growing on Crimea (Ukraine) enters Bulgaria and Serbia, N. Macedonia(?). Then high mountains makes barier and in Greek Macedonia and further to South at least up to Larissa it is replaced with C. macedonicus having different corm tunics and cytology and I'm very doubtful about presence of true pallasii on E. Aegean Islands and further in Turkey up to Israel. Of course disjunct areas are possible, but not very often, and morphologically they differ. What is near Athens, I don’t know, I lost my 2 corms received from Erich Pasche.
Island endemism is quite widespread in Aegean area. See different species on Islands (and even on W side of Turkey), very well separable morphologically, but earlier all regarded as "nubigena" checking only after black anthers. Even as subsp. nubigena of biflorus, although many are not relatives at all.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 07:05:55 AM by Janis Ruksans »
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Janis Ruksans

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Re: Crocus Year 2021
« Reply #218 on: December 28, 2021, 07:16:22 AM »
In autumn 2014, David and I visited Kos and on 10th and 19th November climbed to the top of Mt. Dikeos where we found two species of Crocus which we identified as C. mazziaricus and C. pallasii. Do the latter (photos below) fall within your circumscription of C. samarasii, Janis, and if so, please could you clarify how they differ from C. pallasii? They were found at an altitude of 750-804 metres.
On pictures no mazziaricus seen. Comments about differences were before. I'm simply not very handy with using of homepage.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 07:20:01 AM by Janis Ruksans »
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Margaret Thorne

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Re: Crocus Year 2021
« Reply #219 on: December 28, 2021, 01:01:00 PM »
On pictures no mazziaricus seen. Comments about differences were before. I'm simply not very handy with using of homepage.
Thank you for your response, Janis, but just to clarify matters, my query regarding Crocus on Kos relates not to Crocus mazziaricus, since you acknowledge that this species occurs on the island, but to the second species which I have been calling Crocus pallasii since photographing it there in 2014. This is why I did not include photographs of Crocus mazziaricus. I would be interested to know if you consider the photographs I did include to be Crocus pallasii or Crocus samarasii.
My understanding is that when describing a new species of plant, it is necessary to provide a clear statement of how the newly described species differs significantly from those already described. I have read your article in issue 144 of the ‘International Rock Gardener’ with great care and it is still not clear to me how Crocus samarasii differs from Crocus pallasii. You wrote “Comparing the gathered data with the description of Crocus pallasii from the locus classicus and taking into account the huge distance from Crimea where typical C. pallasii grows, I concluded that the crocus species from Kos Island was an example of islandic endemism and could be regarded as a new species, sufficiently different from its allies”.
Please would you explain how Crocus samarasii differs from Crocus pallasii? Not a single person of the many to whom I have shown these photographs has ever queried their identification as Crocus pallasii, so it would be very helpful to know what it was about Theodoras Samaras’s photographs which caused you describe them as of “a quite distinctly looking crocus”.
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Janis Ruksans

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Re: Crocus Year 2021
« Reply #220 on: December 29, 2021, 04:53:12 PM »
Sorry, Margareth. I re-reead published text and found that small part disappear during editing by my language corrector or during re-editing later by publishers. The main differences which can be easy observed, is in position of stigmatic branches. In samarasii stigma branches practically invariably ends at middle of anthers, but in pallasii usually at tips or higher, in elder flowers and in cultivation almost always overtop anthers, but in samarasii "remain" below tips (if shrivelled anthers will be straightened, you will see this - see pictures of samarasii flower details in previous entry). I attached pictures illustrating this and you can see pallasii flower  pictures here below as well. Digging out plants you will find that in pallasii reticulation of finely fibrous tunics start only at tip, but in samarasii much lower - around middle or even below. This disappeared from published text. But comparing description of samarasii with perfect and detailed description of pallasii you will see this. I attach here few pictures of C. pallasii from locus classicus in Crimea and in cultivation.
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Maggi Young

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Re: Crocus Year 2021
« Reply #221 on: December 29, 2021, 08:13:55 PM »
Sorry, Margareth. I re-reead published text and found that small part disappear during editing by my language corrector or during re-editing later by publishers. The main differences which can be easy observed, is in position of stigmatic branches. In samarasii stigma branches practically invariably ends at middle of anthers, but in pallasii usually at tips or higher, in elder flowers and in cultivation almost always overtop anthers, but in samarasii "remain" below tips (if shrivelled anthers will be straightened, you will see this - see pictures of samarasii flower details in previous entry). I attached pictures illustrating this and you can see pallasii flower  pictures here below as well. Digging out plants you will find that in pallasii reticulation of finely fibrous tunics start only at tip, but in samarasii much lower - around middle or even below. This disappeared from published text. But comparing description of samarasii with perfect and detailed description of pallasii you will see this. I attach here few pictures of C. pallasii from locus classicus in Crimea and in cultivation.
 
 Sorry that this has happened - the IRG is now repaired and replaced on the SRGC.org.uk site

https://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2021Dec291640808762IRG144.pdf
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 03:52:01 PM by Maggi Young »
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

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Margaret Thorne

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Re: Crocus Year 2021
« Reply #222 on: December 31, 2021, 01:59:10 PM »
Thank you for your response, Janis, but I can see no new evidence by which you have demonstrated that the plants on Kos are distinct from Crocus pallasii. You may not have been aware that C. pallasii was known from Kos, but your book shows that this island lies well within its range and they are very easy to find as we discovered on our own visit.
You have provided no photographs of the corm tunics and state in the article “When I checked the corm tunics, I found that they closely resembled those of Crocus cf. pallasii not recorded from this island before.”
Your additional photos of C. pallasii from the Crimea show that their stigmatic branches equal or exceed the height of the anthers, but those in your book ‘The World of Crocuses’ do not. Of these four photographs only the white one shows this feature and together they cover an even wider range of variation than the plants from Kos which I posted, since your first photograph shows a plant with very short stigmatic branches reaching barely half way up the anthers.
To use a feature such as this would require a much larger sample to be studied to demonstrate whether or not there was a statistically significant difference between the Kos and Crimean populations. As you visited Kos for only 2 days, saw Crocuses at only one site and only 3 opening flowers, you cannot even be sure that these are representative of the island population, let alone that they are significantly different from Crimean ones.
Here are two more photos showing C. pallasii from Kos in which the stigmatic branches reach and overtop the stamens.
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Margaret Thorne

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Re: Crocus Year 2021
« Reply #223 on: December 31, 2021, 02:07:46 PM »
I would agree wholeheartedly with the comment in your book regarding Crocus pallasii that “a lot of investigation is still needed all over the vast area of its distribution”. But these investigations must be rigorous.
I wish you and other Crocus enthusiasts health and happiness in 2022 and many successful plant-hunting trips.
Here are Crocus pallasii photos from another East Aegean island taken in 2011 – a particularly good year for long stigmatic branches!
698155-1698159-3698161-4
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