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Author Topic: ....and one from Spain!  (Read 1925 times)

JohnnyD

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....and one from Spain!
« on: February 08, 2017, 10:55:06 AM »
This is one of those 'I ought to know but .....'
Help!
JohnnyD
John Dower, Frodsham, Cheshire.

GordonT

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Re: ....and one from Spain!
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2017, 03:37:44 PM »
John, do you think it might be Acinos alpinus?
Southwestern Nova Scotia,
Zone 6B or above , depending on the year.

Gabriela

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Re: ....and one from Spain!
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2017, 07:10:53 PM »
That's precisely what it is Gordon - A. alpinus. just that i didn't remember the plants from Carpathians being so hairy, so this may be ssp. meridionalis.
It depends where in Spain was taken the picture.

This ssp. can also be found under Calamintha genus, depending on the source.
Gabriela
Ontario, zone 5
http://botanicallyinclined.org/

JohnnyD

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Re: ....and one from Spain!
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2017, 08:02:14 PM »
It was taken in the Picos de Europa Gabriela,
JohnnyD
John Dower, Frodsham, Cheshire.

Gabriela

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Re: ....and one from Spain!
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2017, 01:08:46 AM »
Then it's not, ssp. meridionalis is given only from the south.

Anyway, I looked for an image from Carpathians for comparison. Not to forget that at some point there were various ssp. that are not recognized anymore. The plant I show used to be considered ssp. baumgarteni long ago.

Gabriela
Ontario, zone 5
http://botanicallyinclined.org/

JohnnyD

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Re: ....and one from Spain!
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2017, 11:17:57 AM »
I reckon Acinos sp. will have to do!
Thanks,
JohnnyD
John Dower, Frodsham, Cheshire.

GordonT

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Re: ....and one from Spain!
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2017, 01:22:09 PM »
John, if I understand Gabriela's last comment correctly, I think she is just saying that it isn't subspecies meridionalis, but it is Acinos alpinus. Is this your thinking, Gabriela?
Southwestern Nova Scotia,
Zone 6B or above , depending on the year.

Karaba

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Re: ....and one from Spain!
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2017, 04:28:30 PM »
It may also be found under genus Clinopodium as Clinopodium alpinum (http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/search?q=Clinopodium+alpinum, http://www.tela-botanica.org/bdtfx-nn-18251-synthese) or even under genus Ziziphora as Ziziphora alpina (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/294260921_On_the_taxonomic_status_of_the_genus_Acinos_Lamiaceae) ! It seems that there is no consensus about the genus  ::)
The species is very variable and its identification from Acinos arvensis (=Clinopodium acinos) may be problematic. Flora iberica don't accept any subspecies (http://www.floraiberica.es/floraiberica/texto/imprenta/tomoXII/entrega_3/12_140_27_Acinos.pdf). Flora gallica is doubtful about the subspecies meridionale because of the variability of the species but it keeps the subspecies. For Flora gallica, ssp. meridionale would be distributed in southern Alps and Pyrenees, it has hair on the calix which are bent forward.

You can forget the subspecies but keep alpinus/a/um as the species  ;D
Yvain Dubois - Isère, France (Zone 7b)  _ south east Lyon

Gabriela

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Re: ....and one from Spain!
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2017, 05:18:28 PM »
Thanks Yvain for bringing into attention what I gently tried to avoid ::) There was also Calamintha name involved for a while...
The plant I showed I had it under Calamintha alpina ssp. baumgarteni but changed it to Acinos alpinus ;D Best to keep it simple in this case.
Gabriela
Ontario, zone 5
http://botanicallyinclined.org/

JohnnyD

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Re: ....and one from Spain!
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2017, 11:04:21 AM »
'Claves Illustrades de la Flora del Pais Vasco y territorios limitrofes' (downloadable from Real Jardin Botanico Biblioteca - this version keeps the book pages and Adobe pages the same!) lists:

Acinos alpinus subsp. pyrenaeus (Braun-
Blanq.) M. Laínz [=Satureja alpina subsp.
pyrenaica Braun-Blanq.; Acinos alpinus subsp.
meridionalis (Nyman) P.W. Ball]
Citado como Acinos alpinus (L.) Moench;
Calamintha alpina Lam.; Satureja alpina (L.) Scheele;
Calamintha acinos Clairv.

While 'Catálogo florístico del Parque Nacional Picos de Europa' by Sara Robinson and others (downloadable from internet - or I will email if preferred) says :

S. alpina (L.) Seheele subsp. pyrenaea 8r.-81.
[Acinos alpinus (L.) Moellch subsp, pyrenaeus (81)81.) LaíllZ] Caméj,
10-20(30) cm, IV-IX. Pastos pec/regosos, crestones, grietas de roquedos,
cerros erosionados, graveras. cunetas; Ca; 100-2200 m. Casi todo el
territorio, salvo el valle del Ebro: C. Oró! Ew:

Both are very comprehensive and worth having. The latter has line drawings which appear to give some credence to the namimg.
JohnnyD
John Dower, Frodsham, Cheshire.

Gabriela

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Re: ....and one from Spain!
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2017, 06:50:30 PM »
Johnny, thanks for the additional resources. They may come handy one day, Picos de Europa are on the travels wish list ;-)
There are clear differences between your plant and the one from Carpathians, so the subsp. pyrenaeus designation makes sense entirely; by any other name - Acinos/Calamintha/Satureja.

Gabriela
Ontario, zone 5
http://botanicallyinclined.org/

JohnnyD

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Re: ....and one from Spain!
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2017, 06:54:38 PM »
Having visited Potes in the Picos de Europa on more than a dozen occasions I can promise you will love it Gabriela!
JohnnyD
John Dower, Frodsham, Cheshire.

 


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