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Author Topic: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand  (Read 112765 times)

GordonT

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Re: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2016, 12:48:46 PM »
From the following I can send you fresh seeds ...

Thank you so much for the offer of seeds. Hebes are very uncommon in Nova Scotia. I will send you a pm.
Southwestern Nova Scotia,
Zone 6B or above , depending on the year.

David Lyttle

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Re: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2016, 11:07:30 AM »
I have two Hebe species growing beautifully in the garden here, and would like to find some other cold hardy ones that might survive. Hebe pinguifolia var pagei, and Hebe odora nana are both thriving, in spite of some very cold winters. What other species/hybrids might be worth testing here? The winter before last was the coldest since moving back to Nova Scotia in 2009. We had a few nights where the mercury didn't go above -23C, and the daily high stayed around -15C for about a week. I am drawn to the whipcord species like Hebe ochracea, but will have to track down seeds or mail order nurseries that ship to Canada. I have only seen the above two species supplied in local nurseries.

Hello Gordon,

Some suggestions are Hebe hectorii, Hebe annulata, Hebe imbricata (all whipcords but with numerous forms and varieties), Hebe epacridea, Hebe haastii, Hebe petriei, Hebe pinguifolia, Hebe buchananii, Hebe dilatata. All are small subalpine shrubs growing on screes etc. There are numerous other species that could be suitable but the are restricted in distribution and not easy to get hold of. Temperatures in New Zealand subalpine regions do not get as low as those in Canada (I am guessing -10 C but I should be able to locate some better data)
David Lyttle
Otago Peninsula, Dunedin, South Island ,
New Zealand.

Philippe

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Re: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2016, 11:52:13 AM »
I have one question for you David, just following your answer to Gordon about plant hardiness.
I always think of NZ true alpine plants as quite "tender" plants, because of course much of them are covered with snow during winter. This might just be a wrong idea from me however, but I imagine our european alpine species enduring much better occasional fierce frost without snow than any NZ alpine plant.
But when we see some high altitude Raoulias ( for example) growing in their natural environment on pictures, that's just bare landscape, exposed to winds, and probably with very little or perhaps even no snowcover at all sometimes. I mean, are these plants the equivalent of our european high altitude Androsace growing vertically on cliffs, being able to endure very very low temperatures without too much damage?
We don't have much experience here with generas such as Celmisias. I often read they grow better in temperate and rather moist climates, but again, there must be really high altitude species confined to harsh environments in NZ?
That means they would really be totaly hardy.
Or is the coldness, even on moutain tops, not that cold in NZ winter? It can easily get as low as -20c in the Alps here in 2000m height in winter.
NE-France,Haut-Chitelet alpine garden,1200 m.asl
Rather cool/wet summer,reliable 4/5 months winter snow cover
Annual precip:200/250cm,3.5C mean annual temp.

t00lie

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Re: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2016, 10:02:03 PM »
Hello Phillipe/Gordon

Very wet day here so thought I'd locate some facts .

Here's a record ,(not by me), of air temperatures during winter in a couple of different areas of the high alpine zone of the South Island NZ during a period of at least 5 years back in the 1960's.

Figures are the best as I can read from the small graphs.........

Craigieburn Range Canterbury1829 m, (6000 ft).

JULY   
mean daily max +2 c
mean daily, (not shownsee below)*
mean daily min -7c
extreme max -15c .
* ( June was -1c /August was -4c)                                                     
.
Old Man Range Otago 1590 m ,(5220 ft).

JULY   
mean daily max -3c   
mean daily -6c                                       
mean daily min -8c 
extreme max -18c ,(in September).

These are old stats so maybe David has more recent data.

Hope this is of some help.


Cheers Dave. 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 10:06:48 PM by t00lie »
Dave Toole. Invercargill bottom of the South Island New Zealand. Zone 9 maritime climate 1100mm rainfall pa.

johnw

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Re: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2016, 10:41:22 PM »
Dave  - These temps jive with our Hebe experience here on the Atlantic coast of Nova Scotia & by friends in easternmost Newfoundland.   A brief -15c no problem but the breaking point was -18c unless under decent snowcover.  Very gritty soil with sharp drainage was imperative.

"Hebe hectorii, Hebe epacridea, Hebe pinguifolia," were okay at those temps along with the toughest of all H. rakaiensis which came from Denmark labelled hardiest Hebe grown in Sweden.

1. H. pinguifolia

2. & 3. H. hectorii - trust the name is correct.
and lastly

4. another hardy golden-leafed Hebe I got from Ethel Lohbrunner which maybe you can identify.

john
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 02:50:18 AM by johnw »
John in coastal Nova Scotia

t00lie

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Re: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2016, 11:14:45 PM »
Hello John

David Lyttle will have a better idea of your Hebe's .He has a wealth of knowledge and such a better 'eye' at identification , I'm younger than him and still learning .....   ;) ;D ;D
Dave Toole. Invercargill bottom of the South Island New Zealand. Zone 9 maritime climate 1100mm rainfall pa.

Philippe

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Re: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2016, 06:25:11 AM »
Hello Phillipe/Gordon

Very wet day here so thought I'd locate some facts .

Here's a record ,(not by me), of air temperatures during winter in a couple of different areas of the high alpine zone of the South Island NZ during a period of at least 5 years back in the 1960's.

Figures are the best as I can read from the small graphs.........

Craigieburn Range Canterbury1829 m, (6000 ft).

JULY   
mean daily max +2 c
mean daily, (not shownsee below)*
mean daily min -7c
extreme max -15c .
* ( June was -1c /August was -4c)                                                     
.
Old Man Range Otago 1590 m ,(5220 ft).

JULY   
mean daily max -3c   
mean daily -6c                                       
mean daily min -8c 
extreme max -18c ,(in September).

These are old stats so maybe David has more recent data.

Hope this is of some help.


Cheers Dave.

Thanks for these datas.
It seems that the Old Man Range, though lower in altitude, was significantly colder during these 5 years in winter than the Pilatus for example ( long term datas for that place). Pilatus is about 2000m high, in the central part of the swiss Alps ( north side of the range, that means not the warmest).
One would actually expect NZ alpine plants are just as hardy or even more than our european alpine plants  ::)
Another aspect is naturally the duration and importance of snowcover. Because of its location and climate, the south of NZ is perhaps likely to be regularly much more supplied with long lasting snowcover during winter ? ( apart from local variations due to the relief itself)
NE-France,Haut-Chitelet alpine garden,1200 m.asl
Rather cool/wet summer,reliable 4/5 months winter snow cover
Annual precip:200/250cm,3.5C mean annual temp.

David Lyttle

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Re: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2016, 09:56:20 AM »
Hello Philippe,

I will deal with the points you have raised first. Dave's temperature data is much as I would have expected and is quite accurate. Snow cover is another matter. It is  variable and depends more on aspect than elevation. This has significant effects on the vegetation. On the tops of the Central Otago Ranges (Rock and Pillar Ra, Old Man Ra, Pisa Ra, Hawkdun Ra) the tops are relatively flat and subject to very strong winds. This tends to clear snow off them during the winter (snow persisting for 90 to 120 days). The snow accumulates in hollows and gullies forming snowbanks which depending on the time they melt are classified as early (November 160 days) or late (December 200 days). The vegetation on the summit of these mountains is cushionfield (Dracophyllum muscoides, Raoulia hectorii, Kelleria childii, Phyllachne colensoi, Phyllachne rubra, Celmisia viscosa, Chionohebe pulvinaris, Myosotis pulvinaris). Snowbank vegetation is different again as the plants are protected from extreme temperatures by the covering of snow. Plants include Celmisia haastii, Caltha obtusa, Ranunculus pachyrrhizus. So the answer to your question is that the conditions on the tops of these mountains are severe with low temperatures and freezing winds (very like arctic tundra).

Many Raoulias grow on rock outcrops which in winter would either be free of snow or encased in frozen wind-driven snow; again they would be subject to strong winds and low temperatures. The different Celmisia species are adapted to different conditions; some grow in the subalpine tussock grasland/shrubland which is relatively benign while others are found in the high alpine fellfields and cushionfield where the conditions are much more severe.

The lowest recorded daily minimum temperature in new Zealand occurred 108 years ago, at Ranfurly in Central Otago, in 1903: -25.6C so temperature below -20 are very infrequent.
David Lyttle
Otago Peninsula, Dunedin, South Island ,
New Zealand.

David Lyttle

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Re: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2016, 10:18:05 AM »
Hello John,

To identify Hebes it is useful to have close up photos of the leaf buds as the presence or absence of a sinus in the bud is one of the key taxonomic features. Hebe pinguifolia is variable and your plant would certainly fit within the species. Hebe hectorii is also an extremely variable species and can be distinguished from Hebe lycopodioides and Hebe imbricata (=H.poppelwellii) by the absence of visible veins on the scale leaves. I think your plant is most likely Hebe hectorii.

Your Hebe 'Lohbrunner' is perhaps Hebe odora; a very widespread shrubby species which some taxonomists think comprises several distinct entities. I cant be sure of this as your photo does not show enough detail.

It is interesting that H. rakaiensis is considered the the toughest of all Hebes. It is widespread here in Otago but does not extent into the subalpine zone. It can be a beautiful floriferous plant but is not grown much here.
David Lyttle
Otago Peninsula, Dunedin, South Island ,
New Zealand.

Leucogenes

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Re: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2016, 11:34:42 AM »
Hello Philippe,

I will deal with the points you have raised first. Dave's temperature data is much as I would have expected and is quite accurate. Snow cover is another matter. It is  variable and depends more on aspect than elevation. This has significant effects on the vegetation. On the tops of the Central Otago Ranges (Rock and Pillar Ra, Old Man Ra, Pisa Ra, Hawkdun Ra) the tops are relatively flat and subject to very strong winds. This tends to clear snow off them during the winter (snow persisting for 90 to 120 days). The snow accumulates in hollows and gullies forming snowbanks which depending on the time they melt are classified as early (November 160 days) or late (December 200 days). The vegetation on the summit of these mountains is cushionfield (Dracophyllum muscoides, Raoulia hectorii, Kelleria childii, Phyllachne colensoi, Phyllachne rubra, Celmisia viscosa, Chionohebe pulvinaris, Myosotis pulvinaris). Snowbank vegetation is different again as the plants are protected from extreme temperatures by the covering of snow. Plants include Celmisia haastii, Caltha obtusa, Ranunculus pachyrrhizus. So the answer to your question is that the conditions on the tops of these mountains are severe with low temperatures and freezing winds (very like arctic tundra).

Many Raoulias grow on rock outcrops which in winter would either be free of snow or encased in frozen wind-driven snow; again they would be subject to strong winds and low temperatures. The different Celmisia species are adapted to different conditions; some grow in the subalpine tussock grasland/shrubland which is relatively benign while others are found in the high alpine fellfields and cushionfield where the conditions are much more severe.

The lowest recorded daily minimum temperature in new Zealand occurred 108 years ago, at Ranfurly in Central Otago, in 1903: -25.6C so temperature below -20 are very infrequent.


Hello Dave,

Thank you for good information.

For me in the Ore Mountains  the winters are wet and maximum -10 to -15 Celsius. With a thermal fleece I have here (about 450 m N.N.) very good experiences made and never lost a NZ plant.

And the special Raoulia does not exist here in Europe ... also no seeds. That's why I'm always looking forward to your photos. So I can continue to dream of it.

Thomas

Philippe

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Re: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2016, 11:41:37 AM »
Thank you very much for these high interesting informations David. This gives useful hints on how to try to cultivate some of the species you named.

Hello Philippe,

I will deal with the points you have raised first. Dave's temperature data is much as I would have expected and is quite accurate. Snow cover is another matter. It is  variable and depends more on aspect than elevation. This has significant effects on the vegetation. On the tops of the Central Otago Ranges (Rock and Pillar Ra, Old Man Ra, Pisa Ra, Hawkdun Ra) the tops are relatively flat and subject to very strong winds. This tends to clear snow off them during the winter (snow persisting for 90 to 120 days). The snow accumulates in hollows and gullies forming snowbanks which depending on the time they melt are classified as early (November 160 days) or late (December 200 days). The vegetation on the summit of these mountains is cushionfield (Dracophyllum muscoides, Raoulia hectorii, Kelleria childii, Phyllachne colensoi, Phyllachne rubra, Celmisia viscosa, Chionohebe pulvinaris, Myosotis pulvinaris). Snowbank vegetation is different again as the plants are protected from extreme temperatures by the covering of snow. Plants include Celmisia haastii, Caltha obtusa, Ranunculus pachyrrhizus. So the answer to your question is that the conditions on the tops of these mountains are severe with low temperatures and freezing winds (very like arctic tundra).

Many Raoulias grow on rock outcrops which in winter would either be free of snow or encased in frozen wind-driven snow; again they would be subject to strong winds and low temperatures. The different Celmisia species are adapted to different conditions; some grow in the subalpine tussock grasland/shrubland which is relatively benign while others are found in the high alpine fellfields and cushionfield where the conditions are much more severe.

The lowest recorded daily minimum temperature in new Zealand occurred 108 years ago, at Ranfurly in Central Otago, in 1903: -25.6C so temperature below -20 are very infrequent.
NE-France,Haut-Chitelet alpine garden,1200 m.asl
Rather cool/wet summer,reliable 4/5 months winter snow cover
Annual precip:200/250cm,3.5C mean annual temp.

johnw

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Re: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2016, 02:02:05 PM »
David - Thanks so very much.


On arrival Hebe rakaiensis certainly did not look like a Hebe with any potential hardiness. Here it was quite loose growing and one felt it lacked the rigid structure of a species that came from a "rigorous" climate.


john
John in coastal Nova Scotia

GordonT

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Re: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2016, 08:37:09 PM »
Thank you everyone, for the detailed information. I now have a working list of plants/cuttings/seeds to track down. Hebe pinguifolia pagei, and Hebe odora nana (bought as Hebe buxifolia) have been growing beautifully in the garden. I am looking forward to adding more to the mix! (Will update with photos once the camera with the pics I took comes back from away).
Southwestern Nova Scotia,
Zone 6B or above , depending on the year.

David Lyttle

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Re: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2016, 01:54:26 PM »
Here are a few New Zealand alpine plants that are flowering in my garden at the moment;
Celmisia prorepens
556725-0
Gaultheria crassa
556727-1
Geranium brevicaule bronze form; it tends to seed around prolifically
556729-2
Myosotis saxosa. This plant is putting on a magnificent show
David Lyttle
Otago Peninsula, Dunedin, South Island ,
New Zealand.

Leucogenes

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Re: alpine and subalpine Plants from New Zealand
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2016, 06:55:22 PM »
Here are a few New Zealand alpine plants that are flowering in my garden at the moment;
Celmisia prorepens
(Attachment Link)
Gaultheria crassa
(Attachment Link)
Geranium brevicaule bronze form; it tends to seed around prolifically
(Attachment Link)
Myosotis saxosa. This plant is putting on a magnificent show

Hello David,

I am very happy about your photos. What beautiful plants. Particularly interesting for me is Celmisia prorepens. She also has a very nice foliage. Do you import ripe seeds? At Celmisia this is always a problem.
To get Celmisia here in Germany is almost impossible. :'( What are the plants behind the beautiful C. prorepens?

Myosotis saxosa is also spectacular. I've never seen it like that.

Now to the pictures of Raoulia parkii. The plant on the first picture I have also. At least she looks the same. But I got it as Argyrotegion nitidulum (formerly Raoulia pseudoraoulia). Or Leucoraoulia. But as you said, there are many forms.

I would appreciate more photos of your NZ collection and information. Even if they just do not bloom. For me the NZ Alpinen are nice all year.

Cheers Thomas

 


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