Illegally collected Himalayan plant seeds sold in UK

[alanelliott]

BBC report on Illegally collected seen in UK horticulture. Some well known names Chris Chadwell, Ray Brown of  Plant World Seeds, and the Rhododendron, Camellia and Magnolia Group all named as culprits.

Does not show UK hort in a good light when Chadwell says he used a company with permits then refuses to say who they are and Ray Brown deletes his collection numbers from his site and refused to talk. Looks like guilt.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-35699297

[Anthony Darby]

Saw this on the BBC World news ticker at the bottom of the screen.

[johnralphcarpenter]

In February 2014 I sent this email to Ray Brown:

"I received some seeds from you recently, and in the package was a flyer inviting me to subscribe to a seed collecting expedition to Nepal in September/October. As the export of all plant material, including seeds, from Nepal is strictly prohibited, you may have a wasted journey"

I did not get a reply.

[Maggi Young]

Reading the BBC Report, I see that Chadwell does in fact mention the name of the company he uses -  up then to the BBC to research further, I would have thought?

This Club, and others, have always emphasised that local regulations should be adhered to in  matters like  seed collection.
 
Difficult times indeed for  such matters  -  though my personal opinion is still that  proper habitat protection would do more to protect plants - and  fauna - around the world and probably  benefit  local people more too.
 
 

[Matt T]

There are certainly some clear-cut cases (i.e. States that have banned all exports, or not collecting in protected areas) but it's also worth bearing in mind that this is still quite new legislation and it can take a while for States to get the regulatory mechanisms in place and for everyone to know what is required. Having work in environmental regulation and implemented new legislation (EU law transposed into the UK legislature) I'm all too well aware of how difficult it can be to get the right systems in place that are appropriate and proportionate and then to ensure that everyone knows about them (the regulators, users etc) and then complies. There are also issues around interpretation, both between States as well as different agencies and individuals, especially in the early days of new laws when statute has not been tested and refined through case law. I am sure most folk who rely on collecting as a business have the intent to do so legally - to do otherwise would present a massive risk to their livelihood. I'm not trying to excuse any illegal behaviour, just to highlight that laws and regulation are not always as cut-and-dried as folk want them to be.

[Matt T]

Reading the BBC Report, I see that Chadwell does in fact mention the name of the company he uses -  up then to the BBC to research further, I would have thought?

This Club, and others, have always emphasised that local regulations should be adhered to in  matters like  seed collection.
 
Difficult times indeed for  such matters  -  though my personal opinion is still that  proper habitat protection would do more to protect plants - and  fauna - around the world and probably  benefit  local people more too.

Yes Maggi, degradation and loss of habitats on a massive scale is indeed the biggest problem we face in environmental conservation (if we include climate change under that heading).

[Maggi Young]

 I was thinking, for instance, of the  so called "protection" for plants in Spain which can have their  habitats destroyed wholesale by  developments  -  many of which are themselves illegal, but by no means exclusively so.  I believe there could be many examples of  "permitted" destruction of  supposedly protected  species and habitats too.

[alanelliott]

Reading the BBC Report, I see that Chadwell does in fact mention the name of the company he uses -  up then to the BBC to research further, I would have thought?

The reporter did follow up looking for the company and didn't find it so went back to Chris who said he would no longer talk to him.

Difficult times indeed for  such matters  -  though my personal opinion is still that  proper habitat protection would do more to protect plants - and  fauna - around the world and probably  benefit  local people more too.

I agree habitat protection and getting locals who live there involved is the way forward, but that's a separate issue.

The issue major here is ignoring locals laws, and the perception that "we" are making money at their expense. India and to an extent Nepal still see us as imperialists and people going in helping themselves doesn't help.

[Maggi Young]

The reporter did follow up looking for the company and didn't find it so went back to Chris who said he would no longer talk to him.

I did not see mention of that in the report.

The issue major here is ignoring locals laws, and the perception that "we" are making money at their expense. India and to an extent Nepal still see us as imperialists and people going in helping themselves doesn't help.

Of course, perception is pretty much everything - I merely  caution that perceptions can be skewed - in any direction and that such matters may not be always clear cut. 

[Growild]

quote author=alanelliott link=topic=14099.msg352339#msg352339 date=1457002476
The reporter did follow up looking for the company and didn't find it so went back to Chris who said he would no longer talk to him.

If the reporter could not find the company then they can't be a very good at their job can they? Regards Chris no longer talking to the reporter with further information of the company he did this for a genuine compassionate reason (which is only up to Chris to disclose) and has nothing at all to do with guilt. Sorry but I feel to have to speak up and defend his reputation ...



((edit by maggi to take  Lisa's comment out of Alan's quote bubble))

[Matt T]

I'm also worried that judgements on the rights and wrongs of these cases are being made when none of us know all the facts.

[meanie]

I'm also worried that judgements on the rights and wrongs of these cases are being made when none of us know all the facts.

I cannot comment on this as I don't know the facts. The reason that I am making a general comment is because of the following which is not easy to write;
My brother was recently sentenced to a term in prison for a not very nice crime. He had pleaded guilty so the final chapter was a sentencing hearing. What he did was wrong and is an embarrassment to our family but having been involved from day one I am privy to the reported facts (as in the victims statement to the police) of the case. Having sat through the ninety minute sentencing and listened to the summaries of the prosecution, defence and the judge (who clearly stated that he believed the offence to be a one off act of stupidity and he did not see him as an ongoing risk) I was horrified to read the newspaper report that read like he was a monster. The whole report was based on twenty minutes of prosecution submissions with not one mention from the defence submissions or the judges summary. The papers (local) in question are respected and never come across as sensationalist. I'm sorry if I'm being vague here but the matter is now subject to formal proceedings.
The point of my posting this is to ask people not to come to a conclusion based on media reports, especially where no due process has taken place. The facts as reported may simply be facts that are selectively reported as opposed to the facts.

[David Nicholson]

.....................The point of my posting this is to ask people not to come to a conclusion based on media reports, especially where no due process has taken place. The facts as reported may simply be facts that are selectively reported as opposed to the facts.

Sorry to hear that meanie, must have caused you and the rest of your family much angst.

This does support in a way my much-voiced opinion that the routine standards of journalism, written and broadcast, these days is  abysmally low mainly influenced by the conviction of many of the culprits that Facetwit is fact.

[Anthony Darby]

Sorry to hear that meanie, must have caused you and the rest of your family much angst.

This does support in a way my much-voiced opinion that the routine standards of journalism, written and broadcast, these days is is abysmally low mainly influenced by the conviction of many of the culprits that Facetwit is fact.

Read that twice and Paris in the the springs to mind.

[David Nicholson]

Read that twice and Paris in the the springs to mind.

   OK Hawkeye, edited now. I didn't say anything about handling a keyboard!