Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Bulbs => NARCISSUS => Topic started by: Gerdk on September 28, 2012, 12:22:59 PM

Title: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerdk on September 28, 2012, 12:22:59 PM
Yesterday the first autumn flowering daffodills began to flower - about 10 days later than in 2011

This is Narcissus cavanillesii ssp. mauretanicus - a Salmon collection, received as N. humilis ssp. mauretanicus

Gerd
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: David Nicholson on September 28, 2012, 02:33:58 PM
Little beauties Gerd.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on September 29, 2012, 10:33:13 AM
very nice pot, Gerd. Here this same species is very delayed, just starting to make the roots, and also in the nature they are still almost weaking up from dormancy, I think as no friend have pictured yet...
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: pehe on September 30, 2012, 06:41:01 AM
Gerd, what a sight!
Your heat treating system is working superior - not to mention your growing skill ;)

Poul
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Alan_b on September 30, 2012, 08:08:59 AM
Are there any autumn-flowering narcissi that you could grow outdoors in the UK (south)?
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Angelo Porcelli on September 30, 2012, 08:57:48 AM
Since it blooms after 21th September I think Narcissus broussonetii can be rightly consider an Autumn narcissus.... even if we are still in full summer here. It's very strange that such a nice species hasn't been introduced early in cultivation, it's a very valuable introduction for the Mediterranean gardens
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: David Nicholson on September 30, 2012, 10:19:39 AM
Beautiful Angelo and very well grown.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: arillady on September 30, 2012, 10:53:29 AM
Gerd - must look out for seed.
Angelo I don't know your Narcissus either.
We do learn so much on this forum.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: pontus on September 30, 2012, 02:41:15 PM
Here is my narcissus elegans, each bulb is producing 2 flower stems, so the pot has been in flower now for 2 weeks, and it will keep going for another 2, with its fabulous scent, also producing good seed it seems.

Pontus
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: pontus on September 30, 2012, 02:42:30 PM
Narcissus cavanillesii ssp. mauretanicus is fabulous, ! i did not even know that this species existed!

Pontus
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerdk on September 30, 2012, 06:04:57 PM
Thanks for kind comments alltogether!

Pontus, your Narcissus elegans has a superior corona shape. The petals of my plants tend to curve inwards.
I am not sure if this is a matter of cultivation (lack of light for instance) or if this is a special characteristic of
the clones I grow.

See pics from today!

Gerd
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: David Nicholson on September 30, 2012, 07:03:51 PM
Are there any autumn-flowering narcissi that you could grow outdoors in the UK (south)?

I'd be inclined to say no Alan but could easily be proved to be wrong.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerry Webster on September 30, 2012, 09:04:26 PM
I'd be inclined to say no Alan but could easily be proved to be wrong.
I'm inclined to say the same (without David's qualification).
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on September 30, 2012, 09:39:13 PM
Pontus, I would say your N. elegans is N. obsoletus due the corona division in segments.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerry Webster on October 01, 2012, 10:30:40 AM
Since it blooms after 21th September I think Narcissus broussonetii can be rightly consider an Autumn narcissus.... even if we are still in full summer here. It's very strange that such a nice species hasn't been introduced early in cultivation, it's a very valuable introduction for the Mediterranean gardens
An  extremely beautiful plant Angelo. It seems to be only available from one supplier in the UK &, unfortunately, it is very expensive.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: pehe on October 01, 2012, 12:06:54 PM
Thanks to a generous forum member, I can show Narcissus miniatus ex. Cadiz (just opened and not fully coloured) and Narcissus cavanillesii mauretanicus.

Poul
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerry Webster on October 01, 2012, 12:20:57 PM
Poul - that Narcissus miniatus ex. Cadiz is beautiful. Perhaps you can post another photo when the colour develops?
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: pehe on October 02, 2012, 08:15:41 AM
Gerry, certainly I will!

Poul
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Hans A. on October 02, 2012, 11:37:55 AM
Fine to see so many autumn flowering Narcissi here!

Narcissus obsoletus (syn. N. miniatus) also has started to flower here - sometimes there are 3 flowers on one stalk. Have never seen any leave in a flowering plant of this species while N. elegans always has.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on October 02, 2012, 01:45:38 PM
As those of you who follow Ian's Bulb Log will know, we do not have much sucess with the Autumn flowering narcissus - so these photos of them looking so wonderful for you folks is a delight for us to see and enjoy, thank you!
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on October 03, 2012, 10:26:03 PM
Hans, fatastic wellcome home after your visit!
Narcissus obsoletus, could developpe or not one leaf when blooms, for example there are some localities in Malaga that have most of plants withe leaves. And as you mentioned N. elegans and N. malacitanus always have leaves.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Cris on October 04, 2012, 11:59:57 AM
Hello, here I have not flowers yet, but the N. miniatus already sprouted from the soil...

I've also sowed cavanillesii seeds, but did not germinated yet. This year I want to increase my Narcissus collection, if someone has surplus seeds, they would be very welcome :)

Hola Rafa, que tal? Cuanto tiempo!!!  ;)

Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on October 04, 2012, 01:31:59 PM
Cris, you live in a narcissi paradise! why don't you collect the species from Portugal? I will send you my seed collection.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Cris on October 04, 2012, 03:08:09 PM
Rafa, wish I have time available to can go to these places and collect seeds...Near me are the calcicola, but I never saw one in flower! Maybe this winter I'll try to find them.
Many thanks for sending me seeds, I'll pm you because I've changed my adress.
Do you remember the Eremurus ...that you sent me some years ago? It has very strong rooths and left out of the pot, I repoted it a few weeks ago. I'm wishing to see it's flowers one day:)
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on October 04, 2012, 05:41:52 PM
We will see the species near your home, minimum 3 or 4, sure.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: orpheos on October 04, 2012, 08:51:22 PM
in this period i have too some flowers:D
Narcissus broussonetii and Narcissus miniatus (i think...)
both are sweetly fragrant :D :D
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Hans A. on October 06, 2012, 10:42:26 PM
Thanks Rafa and Maggi !  ;)

Great plants Matteo, I think you are right with the name of N. miniatus/obsoletus - very nice form!

Here some pictures I took today -  (a bouquet of) Narcissus x perezlarae, N.elegans,  first flower of N.elegans (Balearic form) and N. x alleniae.
 
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerry Webster on October 06, 2012, 11:11:57 PM
A beautiful collection Hans. The scent must be wonderful.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Neil on October 06, 2012, 11:21:20 PM
An  extremely beautiful plant Angelo. It seems to be only available from one supplier in the UK &, unfortunately, it is very expensive.

Rareplants have it as well at £12.5,  only 2 in stock

http://www.rareplants.co.uk/basket.asp?s=rmmazp1195874&strPageHistory=related&numSearchStartRecord=0&strReturnTo=product&numReturnCAT_ID=0&numReturnP_ID=670&numReturnRecordPosition=1&strAction=add&numLineCount=1&V1=773&Q1=13&strAddButton1=Add (http://www.rareplants.co.uk/basket.asp?s=rmmazp1195874&strPageHistory=related&numSearchStartRecord=0&strReturnTo=product&numReturnCAT_ID=0&numReturnP_ID=670&numReturnRecordPosition=1&strAction=add&numLineCount=1&V1=773&Q1=13&strAddButton1=Add)
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Anthony Darby on October 07, 2012, 08:25:07 AM
Some beautiful narcissi there. 8)
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on October 07, 2012, 05:11:30 PM
Orpheos, congratulations, is not easy to make bloom N. broussonetii.
Hans, terrific pictures. After our telephone conversation, definitively Balearic plants are not N. elegans, to me. Probably it is another species and the parents involved could be N. elegans and N. obsoletus. In my observations many times the hybrid replace the ecological role from one or both parents, and maybe N. elegans is the one who has disappeared.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: fleurbleue on October 07, 2012, 06:15:54 PM
Very nice autumn Narcissus all friends !  ;)  Lucky men to be able to get them flowering  ::)
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: arillady on October 08, 2012, 07:56:22 AM
Wow Hans what a collection of super clumps. :o :o
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: annew on October 08, 2012, 08:37:14 AM
Very impressed by these beautiful plants.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Hans A. on October 08, 2012, 10:21:52 AM
Thanks a lot for all the kind comments! :)

As Rafa already mentioned the balearic N. elegans puzzled me as it is so diferent to the N. elegans I know.
I had received my plants a few years ago from Germany with the information they came originally from Mallorca. As I grow only a few samples I did not know if my observation (only one leave per bulb, different corona...) is typical for balearic plants or if perhaps I had received totally different plants. This species is a very local plant and I never have seen it in nature, but I had a few good hints where to look for it. So yesterday I jumped in the car to started a trip to the south of the island  after I checked the plants in my garden again. Here some detail pictures of the plants I had received as N. elegans ex Mallorca:
Title: Narcissus elegans tour 2012
Post by: Hans A. on October 08, 2012, 10:26:07 AM
On the way I saw something white flowering - stopped the car and checked the plants - a few late N. obsoletus (most are over).
Title: Narcissus elegans tour 2012
Post by: Hans A. on October 08, 2012, 10:38:10 AM
Then after about 1 hour of driving I arrived at the area where N. elegans should grow - I started to search and after a while I found the first white flowering plant - N. obsoletus again? It was the balearic Narcissus elegans - first only single plants/clumps; but then a good number of them on a very reduced site -  I searched in the surroundings but could not find no plants of this species. Here some pics:
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: pehe on October 08, 2012, 10:54:34 AM
Hans, your narcissus in the garden are very impressive, but it is even more exciting to see them in the wild!

As promised in an earlier post is here Narcissus miniatus (obsoletus) ex Cadiz, now with a second flower and a pot full of Narcissus cavanillesii mauretanicus.

Poul
Title: Narcissus elegans tour 2012
Post by: Hans A. on October 08, 2012, 11:11:29 AM
The plants I found are very similar - there are small differences in the corona to those I grow, every flowering plant had only one leave. I got the information mine were collected when a street was built. As in the visited habitat there was no newer road and because of the small differences of the coronana it seems they came from another population. Leonardo Llorenc mentioned this species growing at the border of small streets and ways in 1972 - as Mallorca has changed a lot in the last 40 Years possibly a lot of Habitats were lost. Is the name "N. elegans" correct for this plant? Seems it was called N. oxypetalus, N.elegans var. oxipetalus;  fr.  sordidicoronatus earlier...
( http://ibdigital.uib.es/greenstone/collect/bolletiHistoriaNaturalVolums/import/Bolleti_1972v017.pdf (http://ibdigital.uib.es/greenstone/collect/bolletiHistoriaNaturalVolums/import/Bolleti_1972v017.pdf), page 56)

picture left N. elegans N. Africa / right "N. elegans" from Mallorca
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Hans A. on October 08, 2012, 01:44:05 PM
... and a pot full of Narcissus cavanillesii mauretanicus.

Wow! Superb!
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerdk on October 10, 2012, 05:46:14 PM
Extraordinary daffs were shown here!


After one week absence I was greeted here by

1. Narcissus miniatus/obsoletus from Southern Spain
2. Same species from Crete - received from a generous forum member
3. Narcissus x perezlarae
4.+5. An outstanding floriferous clone of Narcissus cavanillesii - received from Ian Robertson
6. Narcissus cavanillesii - ' normal '  - for comparison


Gerd
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Armin on October 10, 2012, 07:05:50 PM
Lovely wee beauties, Gerd. 8)
You can account yourself lucky ;D
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: David Nicholson on October 10, 2012, 08:33:09 PM
Lovely selection Gerd.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerry Webster on October 10, 2012, 08:42:11 PM
Beautiful Gerd. The form from Cadiz is particularly lovely.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Susan on October 10, 2012, 09:30:26 PM
They are all just beautiful.

Susan
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on October 10, 2012, 09:32:19 PM
Gerd, 4-5 I wouldn't say N. cavanillesii, it seems something like your N. x moronensis, but  the nothovariety with N. cavanillesii as a mother.

Hans, definitively N. elegans in Mallorca is another different species, almost to me. Appart the obvious different morphology, it hasn't the pigment composition in the corona, it hasn' the red pigment that make the orange corona. This plant has inhertied the pigments from N. obsoletus, wich it could be probably one of their parents. I am sure even they have different scent.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerdk on October 11, 2012, 06:33:52 PM
Thanks for kind comments alltogether!

Rafa: I'll have a closer look at the N. cavanillesii (4.+5.) if there is any sign of hybrid origin. Fortunately Professor
Sanders is interested in pollen of the plant, so perhaps he will be able to give addtional hints.

Gerd
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Hans A. on October 13, 2012, 08:45:24 PM
 Superb plants Gerd, here all those plants should be much easier than in Central Europe but you grow Narcissus cavanillesii much better than me... ::) ;)

Rafa, I agree with you, I also have some problems to call it N. elegans, in my eyes it is to different.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Hans A. on October 15, 2012, 03:17:00 PM
Two pictures from yesterday:  first Narcissus viridiflorus and N. x alleniae, latter very floriferous this year. :)
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerdk on October 15, 2012, 04:50:45 PM
Two pictures from yesterday:  first Narcissus viridiflorus and N. x alleniae, latter very floriferous this year. :)

Hans, what a wonderful performance with these daffs!

I add two flowers of Narcissus elegans (originally from Jebel Zerhoun/Morocco) from today which contrary to my elegans varietas oxypetalus show an interrupted corona. Sorry - not well visible in second pic!

Gerd
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Hans A. on October 15, 2012, 05:43:03 PM
Thanks a lot Gerd!

Thanks for showing those very nice and interesting N. elegans!
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on October 15, 2012, 06:40:05 PM
Gerd, this puzzel me, how many leaves have per bulb this particular N. elegans? Is it possible a range between N. obsoletus and N. elegans? pfffffffffffffffffffffffff

Hansi, too green, it tempted to me to make a salad! :o :o :o
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Cris on October 17, 2012, 01:20:38 PM
How much time takes the N. viridiflorus to germinate? Thanks:)
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerdk on October 17, 2012, 06:06:03 PM
Rafa: I'll have a closer look at the N. cavanillesii (4.+5.) if there is any sign of hybrid origin. Fortunately Professor
Sanders is interested in pollen of the plant, so perhaps he will be able to give addtional hints.
Gerd

Rafa,
It seems this plant stays to be a mistery. Professor Sanders had a look at the pollen yesterday but found
only one fertile pollen grain - the others seemed to be infertile. This phenomenon can be caused be the
cold and rainy weather we experienced even now or by hybrid origin of the plants. I'll try to gather some
additional pollen once again because we had an optimistic weather forecast.
Otherwise the flowers are typical cavanillesii(except for the size), i.e. with long protruding filaments and a more or less lacking corona.
I add two additional pics. Left is always the 'Ian Robertson type'.

Gerd

Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerdk on October 17, 2012, 07:32:27 PM
Gerd, this puzzel me, how many leaves have per bulb this particular N. elegans? Is it possible a range between N. obsoletus and N. elegans? pfffffffffffffffffffffffff

To Rafa again:
Shame on me! I confused my elegans forms. It was NOT the Jebel Zerhoun collection which
shows the interrupted corona but the var. oxypetalus!
With the exception of one (from 7) all had a flowering stalk and leaves. The leaves are flat and glaucous.
There were no single flowers. The origin of my stock was seed from the Wuppertal Botanical Garden (Erich
Pasche) where N. elegans and miniatus/obsoletus grew side by side. So hybridisation can't be excluded.
Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the genetic constellations of the species mentioned but as far I remember
there are some Spanish records about that.

Gerd
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: ArnoldT on October 20, 2012, 10:09:54 PM
I still think it smells like warm vinyl

Narcissus viridiflorus
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on October 22, 2012, 10:29:05 AM
Gerd, thank you very much for the interesting info. Maybe these N. cavanillesii are  simply more big, as you say the rest of the characters are pure N. cavanillesii.

I am sitill  thinking that this var. oxipetalus, is  the result of several crosses between pure N. elegans and N. obsoletus. I think is not a good idea to maintain in the same species, a plant that could have segemented corona or not, it is an important character and I think is would be interesting to understand why it has this character. Maybe your big cavanillesii it would be good variety or stirpe, form... because maintain almost the most important common characters from the same species, but to compare N. elegans from Argelia with N. elegans oxypetalus from Mallorca is like compare a horse with a donkey, I think. The comparation picture that Hans did is a good start to see how diferent they are.

A couple of species that last year set seeds

    N. piifontianus
    N. x alleniae
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Anthony Darby on October 22, 2012, 10:37:27 AM
Lovely to see these Rafa.  8)
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: pehe on October 22, 2012, 11:31:50 AM
It is nice to see all these interesting Narcissus!
Two of mine has opened today.
Narcissus x alentejanus and one labeled as Narcissus serotinus.

Poul
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on October 22, 2012, 12:30:59 PM
I would like to compare both N. x alentejanus and N. x perez-larae, maybe it will be some diferences in perianth tube.
I think the second picture is N. obsoletus, very nice anyway.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerdk on October 26, 2012, 12:14:09 PM
Here is my best/most floriferous autumn flowering species

Narcissus miniatus (obsoletus/serotinus) x tazetta
and
Narcissus x alleniae - just opening

Gerd
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Angelo Porcelli on October 26, 2012, 02:19:57 PM
Gerd, very nice this miniatus x tazetta hybrid. Is it a natural hybrid or you made your own?
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerdk on October 26, 2012, 06:30:42 PM
Thank you, Angelo.
This hybrid is the result of a cross done by mother nature in Israel. I received it from
a generous forum member.

Gerd
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Angelo Porcelli on October 26, 2012, 09:19:21 PM
I have both species native here, but the flower several weeks apart, obsoletum/miniatum in September- October, tazetta in December- January, so any natural cross is unlikely
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Oron Peri on October 26, 2012, 10:40:36 PM
Angelo,
Narcissus tazetta has two variants in Israel, first is an autumnal form that blooms with the leaves not fully developed, it flower in Mid October - November, depend on rains.
The other form is restricted to valleys with damp conditions, often literaly growing in the water for quite few weeks, also it is more robust plant. It blooms in mid December - February.
The autumnal form blooms at the same time as N. obsoletus and in one small area on the north part of the coast the two species overlap to create these hybrids.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on October 26, 2012, 11:05:41 PM
Oron, are there seeds availible from both N. tazettas?
 
I also grow the same hybrid that Gerd and Oron grow, but the plat I grow is from Corsica. Oron, do you know the parent role in this hybrid? is it tazetta or obsoletus that accting as a mother? maybe it is possible two nothovaieties in this cross deppending which one was the mother, in this case it would be very interesting to study it in the nature. Maybe in our hybrids, the mother was N. obsoletus, because it has the corona with segments, but what will happend if tazetta would be the mother? would it have the corona complete? veeeeeeeery interesting to me.....
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Anthony Darby on October 27, 2012, 03:44:49 AM
Lovely hybrid Gerd. 8)
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: arillady on October 27, 2012, 06:47:16 AM
Gerd now that is the sort of Narcissus that gladdens my heart. Thanks Oron for the explanation.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Oron Peri on October 27, 2012, 09:46:55 AM
Rafa,

I think the two species act as mother plants: there are hybrids that look more tazetta, and others more obsoletus. Both sterile.
The hybrid in Gerd's photo has flowers of the tazetta type [90 degree] with more flowers than the 1-2[-3] in obsoletus.
But as you can notice it has only one leaf as in obsoletus.
I'm afraid i do not have seeds of the tazetta this year but I'll collect some for you.
By the way the autumnal variety sets seeds by the end of November, early December while the other varieta not before February.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Hans A. on October 27, 2012, 01:33:22 PM
Here is my best/most floriferous autumn flowering species

Narcissus miniatus (obsoletus/serotinus) x tazetta


Superb picture of great plant, Gerd -  and for sure perfectly grown.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerdk on October 27, 2012, 07:56:04 PM
Thanks for compliments alltogether - but,  most of the honour deserves the donor and the adaptability
of the species to different growing conditions - seems to be very easy growing.
Unfortunately multiplication would be a slow process - unless someone tries chipping.

Gerd
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Oron Peri on November 02, 2012, 07:56:25 AM
Autumn has finally arrived here, although it is 31c today.
N. obsoletus and one of the forms of N. obsoletus x tazetta start to bloom.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Oron Peri on November 02, 2012, 07:59:59 AM
Now this is new, this morning i have noticed 3 new, identical seedling growing in the N. cavanilesii pots.
I suspect it might be N. obsoletus x cavanillesii
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on November 02, 2012, 09:23:27 AM
very curious lines in the petals  :o It is very probably any kind of chromosom introgression, but I' not sure if it is a pure hybrid,  it don't has the characters of N x perez larae, the corona must be reduced and you have to see the filamente exerted from the corona. Although it could be very pale, if the mother was obsoletus, normally the whole petals are colored with the same color that this line have. But it is very curious, it reminds me the peach obsoletus that Gerds grow.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Oron Peri on November 02, 2012, 09:40:12 AM
But it is very curious, it reminds me the peach obsoletus that Gerds grow.

Thanks Rafa,

I have taken this option in consideration as i grow also Gerds 'Orange Form' but it blooms last usually after all my obsoletus are over.
Also the color in Gerd's form is more 'washed' on the petal. It is a mystery... :-\
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Anthony Darby on November 02, 2012, 09:48:49 AM
Gosh. That looks very different with the yellow mid line! :o
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerdk on November 02, 2012, 09:54:36 AM
Just as Rafa wrote to me it doesn't look like a hybrid - all hybrids of obsoletus/miniatus and serotinus s.str. always show unicoloured yellow petals when opening.
Maybe it's best to test fertility because hybrids are more or less infertile or have at least a reduced seedset.
Very handsome flowers though!

Gerd
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: orpheos on November 04, 2012, 08:51:41 AM
Oron and Gerd i've only a word for descrive your plants:"WOW"

here i 've another plants labelled serotinus that is blooming now.. i think it maybe the true serotinus, it is completely differet from the other one
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: annew on November 04, 2012, 10:00:44 AM
All these autumn narcissi are so beautiful. I admire everyone's skill in growing them so well.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: David Nicholson on November 04, 2012, 11:32:42 AM
Seconded.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on November 04, 2012, 01:05:01 PM
Matteo, do you have a lateral view of this plants? Narcissus serotinus, rarely has two flowers.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: pehe on November 05, 2012, 08:19:06 AM
I would like to compare both N. x alentejanus and N. x perez-larae, maybe it will be some diferences in perianth tube.
I think the second picture is N. obsoletus, very nice anyway.

Rafa,
Narcissus x alentejanus again and the second picture of the perianth tube.

Poul
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: pehe on November 05, 2012, 08:22:15 AM
Narcissus miniatus (obsoletus) under glass.

Poul
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: pehe on November 05, 2012, 08:33:21 AM
Now this is new, this morning i have noticed 3 new, identical seedling growing in the N. cavanilesii pots.
I suspect it might be N. obsoletus x cavanillesii

Oron,
Among my Narcissus miniatus in the previous post is a single plant, which looks somewhat like your seedlings.
It has just opened at the first pic. The second pic is 10 days later.

Poul
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Angelo Porcelli on November 05, 2012, 02:11:15 PM
Poul,

your plants are very nice, I admire a lot all you people in Northern Europe growing these plants, which are native here and I grow almost without care
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on November 06, 2012, 11:55:09 PM
Thank you Poul, I will download these pictures.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on November 12, 2012, 04:28:23 PM
Some  Narcissus serotinus growing near Vathia in the Peloponnese a couple of days ago
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on November 13, 2012, 12:07:00 AM
Tony, these beautiful narcissi are N. obsoletus, Narcissus serotinus only grows in North Atlantic Morocco, South-West Spain and South Portugal; and Narcissus obsoletus is a Mediterranean element.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on November 13, 2012, 10:55:45 AM
Tony, these beautiful narcissi are N. obsoletus, Narcissus serotinus only grows in North Atlantic Morocco, South-West Spain and South Portugal; and Narcissus obsoletus is a Mediterranean element.

Rafa

thank you and a not unexpected comment as I know your views on them being different species. I see from your post on the msg forum there are supposed to be difference but they all seem either/or  and not definitive. As an example some of the plants I found had no leaves at flowering and some did although only slightly developed.

I suppose I just believe they are the same with minor natural variations.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on November 13, 2012, 08:45:30 PM
They are different species, believe me. Apart different chromosome count and geographical distribution there are several morphological differences.

Narcissus serotinus hasn't leaves when blooms.
Narcissus obsletus could develop one leaf or not, when blooms.

Narcissus serotinus rarley has two flowers per scape
Narcissus obsletus can develop several flowers per scape

Narcissus serotinus has a pure yellow corona
Narcissus obsoletus has orange/brown corona (greenish/brown at the beginning)

Also they have different corona segment disposition

Narcissus serotinus has a perianth tube like a bottle, with visible segments
Narcissus obsoletus has a perianth tube regular conical


There are some places in Spain where N serotinus and N. obsoletus grow together, maybe N. serotinus can rarely has two flowers per scape, because is in fact an hybrid between both species.

When you are  familiarize oneself with both species is almost impossible to be mixtaken

Here are some pictures from my friend Paco Moreno, who knows very well both species.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on November 13, 2012, 09:21:42 PM
in addition, all these characters are constant in the whole localities and also in culture. Also N. obsoletus is a biggger plant and robust than N. serotinus.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on November 13, 2012, 09:52:01 PM
Rafa

thank you for the information and pictures which is very interesting to read and see

I know you and many others are convinced they are different species and I respect that opinion but I can see from the pages of discussion on various forums that others disagree not only with these particular plants but many others as well.

That is how I think this subject will always be and I just enjoy seeing the plants and growing them. I will leave my labels as they are as no doubt within a few years another opinion will hold sway and the names will all change again.

Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on November 13, 2012, 10:29:53 PM
of course Tony, I just wanted to expose my reasons to explain why I consider totally different species, I can't uderstand why they have been considered the same for so long.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: orpheos on November 14, 2012, 06:08:28 PM
hi Rafa
sadly I've no one good lateral photos :( and now the blooms are gone:(  i've also looked at pics of last years but i've only found a close up of the corona... also last year it has 2 flowers... by the way the plants come from Paul Christian...

Matteo, do you have a lateral view of this plants? Narcissus serotinus, rarely has two flowers.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: orpheos on November 14, 2012, 06:10:57 PM
Narcissus viridiflorus... mine has a very bad smell:(
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on November 14, 2012, 09:42:12 PM
Thank you Matteo, I think your plants are not N. serotinus, I think it is N. obsoletus x N. tazetta, the same plant that Oron and Gerd showed.
Sorry about you N. viridiflorus, it is my favourite scent, maybe I have a bad sense of smell  ;D

Today I received a bad news concerning Moroccan Narcissus antiatlanticus, that has been plunded one year after its publication... this is the problem of sharing precise localities in scientific articles. Well done to the responsable of this, I hope you gain a lot of money with the bulbs >:( :-X
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: orpheos on November 14, 2012, 11:03:47 PM
thank you Rafa;)
concerning viridiflorus i think mine is a stinking clone;)

it's very sad (and bad) news  :'(
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: arillady on November 15, 2012, 11:02:04 AM
Really shocking news Rafa about the Moroccan Narcissus antiatlanticus. Some people are just greedy and self centered.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: annew on November 15, 2012, 01:39:34 PM
It will be interesting to see if they turn up in someones nursery list.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: annew on November 15, 2012, 01:39:57 PM
Not mine, I hasten to add.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on November 15, 2012, 07:54:56 PM
I am completely sure Anne,

Fortunately there are several localities of the same species that are not published. If the collector is reading me, thanks to hime we can't continue our study in this particular place because the only thing left of this specie are the holes that he did to extract the bulbs, an important amount of plants, by the way.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerry Webster on November 15, 2012, 08:01:00 PM
It will be interesting to see if they turn up in someones nursery list.
I suspect they will not turn up in a nursery list. I wonder whether they were collected (i.e., stolen) to order?
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on November 15, 2012, 08:13:15 PM
Maybe..... it seems they were very selective choosing only this species mixed with other bulbouse plants like Pancratium sp, etc.. and they know very well this  narcissus genus as they collected it before bloom, only by seeing the leaves.

I will try to introduce this species properly by seeds.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Angelo Porcelli on November 15, 2012, 10:39:14 PM
Incredible, I can't understand the reason of this poaching, seeing this species is closely related to N. broussonetii would not be a garden species for northern climates
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Anthony Darby on November 16, 2012, 12:13:09 AM
Do we have a picture of this plant?
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Hans A. on November 18, 2012, 08:35:25 AM
Outrageous.  >:(
Glad to hear you will  try to introduce this species by seed Rafa!
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: wooden shoe on November 18, 2012, 09:15:20 PM
Here's another of Rafa's introductions. It's Narcissus malacitanus, an autumn blooming narcissus from the Sierra Nevada. I'm very happy to see the growth and I hope I can distribute the seeds in a few years. Thank you Rafa for the seeds!
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on November 18, 2012, 11:48:25 PM
Anthony,  N. antiatlanticus is bigger and robust than N. broussonetii. It has 8 short and flat leaves per bulb (at blooming time) shorter than scape, when N. broussonetii has 4 long leaves. I will post  some pictures.

Narcissus malacitanus, is a robust form of N. elegans, I think this is the purest N. elegans, as it's completely isolated far from other Narcissus like N. serotinus, N. viridiflorus or N. cavanillesii. In Mallorca and Morocco (I suppose also im Algeria) there is a genetic chaos between all these species and they are all mixed. Very complex to study Narcissus in Morocco... N. malacitanus only grows in Malaga. It is fantastic haw you germinated these seeds. It is easy to grow and quite hardy, more than N. elegans from North Africa.

DAMN!! this year I was too late in sending my index (as usually :-\) so this year as you notice, I am not in the wild collection donors.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: wooden shoe on November 19, 2012, 08:15:33 AM
Hi Rafa, I indeed noticed that the wild collected Narcissus were in shorter supply than former years and missed your entries. A pity you were too late, I would surely have picked some. Hopefully we will have another chance next year. :D
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: pehe on November 26, 2012, 12:45:01 PM
I do not know if this is the right place to post pics of these winter flowering Narcissus, but it is still autumn, so here they are: My first flowers of what I believe is Narcissus Nylon in the open garden.

Poul
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on November 26, 2012, 01:29:52 PM
Poul, this is most interesting for us to see, in a year when we have none of the narcissus flowering that we usually expect at this time of year .... I think you will find Ian commenting on this in tomorrow's Bulb Log.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: pehe on November 26, 2012, 01:40:02 PM
Maggi, yes this is strange. My N. Nylon under glass is far behind - only in small buds. They were watered in the end of August.

Poul
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: ikizzeki on November 26, 2012, 03:02:49 PM
Greetings from Turkey,Antalya..
I am very new for forum but fond of daffodils. In Turkey,autumn flowering narcissus is rarely seen. I only saw 'paper white' flowering before winter. We Turks mostly prefer good smelling flower for gardening.
I am very happy to see more autumn flowering daffodils,and I wonder if I asked seed .....
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: pehe on November 26, 2012, 07:32:33 PM
Greetings from Turkey,Antalya..
I am very new for forum but fond of daffodils. In Turkey,autumn flowering narcissus is rarely seen. I only saw 'paper white' flowering before winter. We Turks mostly prefer good smelling flower for gardening.
I am very happy to see more autumn flowering daffodils,and I wonder if I asked seed .....

Welcome to the forum Ikizzeki! It is nice to have visitors from Turkey, the land of bulbs.

I will have seeds off some of my Narcissus miniature/obsoletus in a few months. If you reminds me at that time, I will send some to you. N. miniature smells good, but not as strong as paper white.
Are there growing wild bulbs in the area where you live? If yes, maybe we can swap some seeds.

Poul
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on November 26, 2012, 07:57:11 PM
welcome Ikizzeki

you have some lovely autumn flowering narcissus in Turkey not too far from where you live.

At Kas the rocks below the helicopter landing pad are filled with Narcissus tazetta and both in the woods near Akyaka and on the hillsides near Bozburum are masses of Narcissus serotinus both in flower at this time of year.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on November 26, 2012, 11:01:47 PM
Poul, this is most interesting for us to see, in a year when we have none of the narcissus flowering that we usually expect at this time of year .... I think you will find Ian commenting on this in tomorrow's Bulb Log.

Ther are aslo in my garden a couple bulbocodium narcissi from Mike Salmon, in bloom from Morocco. But it don't surprise me as there are also blooming in the wild in Morocco.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: ikizzeki on November 27, 2012, 09:21:45 AM
Hello pehe,
Thanks alot..I am not good at but ı see some different crocuses flowering around my land.Also grow some imy land..But ı have never seen their seed pod. If you tell me how tos I can collect for you..
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: ikizzeki on November 27, 2012, 09:31:48 AM
Hello Tony Willis,

Thanks for advices.. Kas is very close to me .I.ll try it..Tasettas flower in early spring. Some triend promised to send bulbs from 'Karaburun'.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on November 27, 2012, 10:38:38 AM
Hello Tony Willis,

Thanks for advices.. Kas is very close to me .I.ll try it..Tasettas flower in early spring. Some triend promised to send bulbs from 'Karaburun'.

No they flower late October early November. Picture taken 1st November 2011 at Kas
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: ikizzeki on November 27, 2012, 10:53:23 AM
Thanks.. I'll try to do .
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: pehe on November 27, 2012, 11:49:24 AM
Hello pehe,
Thanks alot..I am not good at but ı see some different crocuses flowering around my land.Also grow some imy land..But ı have never seen their seed pod. If you tell me how tos I can collect for you..

The crocus seed pod stays under ground until spring/summer when the leaves wither. At that time the seed pod grows above the ground, and can be collected. You can see seed pods here: http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2004/080604/log.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2004/080604/log.html)
But some garden crocus (hybrids) are sterile and don't set seeds. The crocus species which grows in the wild do set seeds.

Poul
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: ikizzeki on November 27, 2012, 02:23:18 PM
Thanks   pehe,

I have  remembered..But after fading fllower how can I define which speciies was it?
Because almost three different colours are around,and are  spoiled around.
I wanted to show some pics for but not succed on posting..I think one is C.mathewii .I correctly know it.Others are white ,purple erf coloured..
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Gerry Webster on November 27, 2012, 07:33:40 PM
Poul, this is most interesting for us to see, in a year when we have none of the narcissus flowering that we usually expect at this time of year .... I think you will find Ian commenting on this in tomorrow's Bulb Log.
Very little showing here either, apart from one rather miserable N. cantabricus var. foliosus. Received - surprise, surprise - as N. cantabricus subsp. cantabricus.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: ArnoldT on November 29, 2012, 02:52:06 PM
This one is right on target for flowering time as compared to last year.

Narcissus canatabricus var. foliosus
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: David Nicholson on November 29, 2012, 04:24:08 PM
Well in advance of mine Arnold. Narcissus 'Taffeta' is going to be my first of the season, should be open next week.
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on November 29, 2012, 07:31:42 PM
As Ian bemoans in this week's Bulb Log, this is proving a very late year for narcissus here.....
http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2012Nov281354112077BULB_LOG_4812.pdf (http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2012Nov281354112077BULB_LOG_4812.pdf)

Will we actually see any of our usual flowers from October, November and December before 2013?  :o :-X
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: pehe on January 06, 2013, 04:05:39 PM
A late flower of a late planted Narcissus x alleniae

Poul
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: zonneveld on March 28, 2013, 03:51:56 PM
I just measured nuclear DNA content of three clones of N malacitanus. They all have 29.7 picogram DNA per nucleus , very close to the weight of N elegans with 30.2 pg ..............If this is just elegans its presence is predicted as N miniatus (50 pg)grows in southern spain, the doubled hybrid between N serotinus ( 30 pg) and elegans  (20 pg). The non doubled hybrid is N x obsoletus (25 pg)
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on March 28, 2013, 04:01:27 PM
Hello Ben- thank you for your comments on the plants mentioned in the previous page of this thread : http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9612.msg260416#msg260416 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9612.msg260416#msg260416)

and also in this thread ( with photos):  http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9781.msg260507#msg260507 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9781.msg260507#msg260507)

DNA results are of great interest to many. 
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: Rafa on March 28, 2013, 10:40:20 PM
The question now to me is if N. x obsoletus actually is N. serotinus x N. elegans, or it's N. obsoletus x N. elegans because if it's just now, that we are starting to recognize N. serotinus and N. obsoletus as different species. Who knows if the hybrid was described with the correct parents or is a "retro-crossing" N. elegans/N. obsoletus like I think it happens in Balearic Islands.  To me it is more probable a cross between N. obsoletus and N. elegans, because N. serotinus x N. elegans must have been in a very long time ago, and today the environmental circunbstaces have changed a lot, and in addition there is a new species N. obsoletus, that interferes in the original crosses N. serotinus x N. elegans.
I think this problem it still open, and It's neccesary to locate and redefine in the wild:
1. N. serotinus x N. elegans,
2. N. serotinus x N. obsoletus
3. N. elegans x obsoletus
Even better if the study will also cover both directions of nothovarieties  :o :o
Title: Re: Autumn flowering Narcissus 2012
Post by: annew on March 29, 2013, 07:56:47 PM
Go to it, Rafa!
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