Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Cultivation => Composts => Topic started by: Eric Locke on April 08, 2010, 08:50:20 PM
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Hi All
Wondered what others think of the standard of multi-purpose composts these days ? Once upon a time this could be used for almost all applications, but now ????
Over the past few years I have noticed the steady decline in the standard of these composts and one of the reasons to blame for this is the trend away from using peat.
I have recently purchased more of my usuall well known brand and was horrified when opening it up. >:(
Firstly I thought I had opened up a bag of Composted Bark as the typical smell hit me straight away .
I tipped some out to find a whole host of bark and wood rubbish + paper, tin foil and goodness what else.
I have been in touch with the manufacturer to tell them my thoughts on this :-X and discovered that they are using composted household waste as well as composted wood and bark. Surely this is taking things too far and this bag of "rubbish" is not fit for the purpose it is intended for. To cap this off I have discovered a hidden price rise by reducing the bag size by 10Ltrs. :-X I will certainly not purchase this "RUBBISH" again and hope the others manufacturers do not follow suit.
Eric
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That sounds awful Eric. After all, tin foil isn't going to rot downinto usable compost. It's not so much multi-purpose, just multi component. everything surely should be of organic origin. And paper, while it makes a great weed supressent under gravel or bark on a pathway, is not suitable for compost unless shredded and again, well rotted down.
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Eric, if I had paid good money for a proprietary compost with those ingredients I'd be raising strong concerns with the manufacturer.... sounds revolting stuff! :-X :P
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Eric, if I had paid good money for a proprietary compost with those ingredients I'd be raising strong concerns with the manufacturer.... sounds revolting stuff! :-X :P
And not so long ago they were the brand leader for multi-purpose. :o
Eric
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One thing I have noticed is that all the multipurpose composts now contain large amounts of chemicals to retain moisture. These I think now are unsuitable other than for hanging baskets or bedding plants as you don't allways want that level of water retention.
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Multi-purpose compost was for many years more or less pure peat. If you're really old you might remember a time when compost was actually compost, but it wasn't available in bags in every corner shop. Personally it doesn't seem to me that this was ever the ideal base for growing alpines, but at least was of a fairly uniform standard. More recently lots of fancy chemicals were added to help with rewetting, water retention, slow release fertilisers, etc.
In the last 10 years or so, manufacturers have been striving to reduce the level of peat. Partly this is so they can charge us more for a "peat free" product and partly because peat is becoming harder to source and so more expensive. The primary replacement for peat was first composted wood waste, bark, and sawdust. Quality varied enormously depending on the recipe and degree of composting. Quality still varies enormously today and while some now seem to be quite good, some are still awful.
The last throw of the dice has been a return to actual composted green materials, although now it is mostly domestic green waste. Quality should be uniform, but that supposes all the non-compostable material has been sifted out. Also, there just shouldn't be any recognisable non-composted material left after proper commercial scale composting.
So my recommendation is to start with John Innes ;D After all, you're going to add lots of coarse material for drainage and that will result in the perfect growing medium for most alpines. OK, maybe not Pleione and Orchids, but then B&Q multi-purpose isn't so great for them either.
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I bought some multi-purpose compost yesterday (Levington). It looks exactly as it has done for the last few years &, apart from a few small twigs, contained no rubbish. This stuff is excellent for improving garden soil prior to planting. I have never used it for potting & probably never will.
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I bought some multipurpose compost yesterday (Levington). It looks exactly as it has done for the last few years &, apart from a few small twigs, contained no rubbish. This stuff is excellent for improving garden soil prior to planting. I have never used it for potting & probably never will.
Gerry like Eric I had some from them 3 years ago I used some to start Tomato seed in and had more weeds than seed so took a photo and sent them to complain they replied that weed seeds must have blown in I told them I took an unopened bag into the greenhouse sowed the seeds and put them strait in the Propagator so they could not have blown in the firm came back with a money token and said they meant at their end.
I now by bales of peat and get the compost base mix from Chempak and have no more troubles but now Chempak has sold out to T&M not sure if they will sell the mixes.
Derek
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I now by bales of peat and get the compost base mix from Chempak and have no more troubles but now Chempak has sold out to T&M not sure if they will sell the mixes.
Derek
You have my sympathy Derek. It seems manufacturers are conspiring against those of us who like to prepare our own mixes. For several years I have used Vitax Q4 as a base fertilizer & having just emptied an old packet I bought a new one. I was horrified to discover that the fertiliser, formerly a powder, is now in the form of enormous pellets, presumably designed to be scattered in the garden but completely useless for incorporating in a mix.
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I have used New Horizon peat-free multipurpose compost for several years and get on well with it. As well as neat for vegetables, I use it with JI and perlite for bulbs etc. It came above peat-based compost in recent Which trials.
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Oh, no! I just bought 25kg of Q4 and haven't looked in the bag yet!
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Regarding the weight aspect of Eric's thread, the bags are no longer allowed to weigh more than 70litres - another EU directive - so the manufacturers just complied without complaining, and give us less for our money. Rob dogs.
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Oh, no! I just bought 25kg of Q4 and haven't looked in the bag yet!
I'd be interested to know what you find Anne. I intend to contact Vitax to see if they still supply Q4 in the form of powder.
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It seems manufacturers are conspiring against those of us who like to prepare our own mixes. For several years I have used Vitax Q4 as a base fertilizer & having just emptied an old packet I bought a new one. I was horrified to discover that the fertiliser, formerly a powder, is now in the form of enormous pellets, presumably designed to be scattered in the garden but completely useless for incorporating in a mix.
Do you have an old food processor, or even a spare coffee grinder, for small quantities? I've tried the former for pelleted fertilizer and though it's a pest to have to do it, it does work. You can grind it as fine as you want it.
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It seems manufacturers are conspiring against those of us who like to prepare our own mixes. For several years I have used Vitax Q4 as a base fertilizer & having just emptied an old packet I bought a new one. I was horrified to discover that the fertiliser, formerly a powder, is now in the form of enormous pellets, presumably designed to be scattered in the garden but completely useless for incorporating in a mix.
Do you have an old food processor, or even a spare coffee grinder, for small quantities? I've tried the former for pelleted fertilizer and though it's a pest to have to do it, it does work. You can grind it as fine as you want it.
CAUTION: But wear a mask to do it and use it!!
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Lesley - I had thought of an old coffee grinder or crushing between piece of paving slab. I've tried a club hammer which works but is both laborious & messy. Why do manufacturers introduce these 'improvements' which, at least for some of us, are not?
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I think the crushing between slabs would be too much akin to breaking rocks or other old prison activities. ::)
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Slightly off topic, but the local Cadbury's (one of Dunedin's biggest employers) have taken a lot of more popular items off shore for manufacture in Australia, Italy and God knows where else. These are "improvements" (only to the shareholders) in which the cocoa content of the chocolate has been reduced, palm oil is being used and the weight of the standard block has been reduced from 250gms to 200, though the price has risen. Likewise, the packaging has changed and I can no longer open a block silently, to avoid the "looks" from both Roger and the dogs.
In the case of the palm oil, the public has expressed such outrage, and boycotted the products, that Cadbury's have been forced to change back to cocoa butter. The other changes are still extant however. Wages for our local employees are now even calculated and distributed to bank accounts through their London office, for Pete's sake!
Back to the topic though. Both cocoa and coffee beans, once their useable content has been extracted, make excellent soil conditioner and add humus. Being small, they incorporate very easily and smell nice too. :D Likewise, barley once the maltings have been extracted.
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CAUTION: But wear a mask to do it and use it!!
YES (Do as I say, not as I do. ???)
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All the manufactures mentioned by others are not the one I have had trouble with and infact I find the Levington brand to be currently the best by a long way.
Many years ago I did use Multi Purpose straight from the bag ,but have more recently found the need to add other ingredients depending on what I am using it for. Obviously this is of little use for most Alpines but usefull for many other applications .
I have had further communication from the manufacturer in question stating that one of their suppliers was not screening composted green material to specification and further loads from this source have been stopped. I will still not purchase any more of this from them however and have already purchased an alternative to try out.
Eric
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My 25kg of Q4 is a powder. I got it from LBS.
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My 25kg of Q4 is a powder. I got it from LBS.
Anne - I'm glad to hear it is still available in this form. Who or what is LBS?
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My 25kg of Q4 is a powder. I got it from LBS.
Anne - I'm glad to hear it is still available in this form. Who or what is LBS?
Gerry I have just ordered 25K of Q4 from LBS it is in powder form.
go to www.lbsbuyersguide.co.uk If you play your cards right you may be able to get trade prices but they do retail as well, I use my old trade name from 25 years ago.
Derek
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Thanks for the info Derek. It seems that Q4 in powder form is only available to professional growers & in 25 kg packs. I estimate that this would last me rather more than 50 years!
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Thanks for the info Derek. It seems that Q4 in powder form is only available to professional growers & in 25 kg packs. I estimate that this would last me rather more than 50 years!
Gerry you could always split it and sell it on Ebay ;D ;D ;D
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Possible alternatives to Vitax Q4 (http://www.gardendirect.co.uk/compost-mulches-aggregates-compost-bases-c-5_193_205?zenid=sehpr0knvkr1dsbn9pr3sf8dr1). The John Innes Base is presumably the original recipe and the improved with synthetic ingredients.
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Possible alternatives to Vitax Q4 (http://www.gardendirect.co.uk/compost-mulches-aggregates-compost-bases-c-5_193_205?zenid=sehpr0knvkr1dsbn9pr3sf8dr1). The John Innes Base is presumably the original recipe and the improved with synthetic ingredients.
Thanks Iann. I terms purely of N : P : K, the Chempak John Innes Base Improved seems comparable to Vitax Q4 but there is no mention of the additional trace elements which are present in Q4.
Vitax Q4 100 : 141 : 188
Chempak JI 100 : 153 : 212
base improved
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I don't have that exact box to hand, but other Chempak bases include trace trace elements, apparently the same seven trace elements and in the same proportions as in all their fertilisers:
Boron
Copper
Iron
Magnesium
Manganese
Molybdenum
Zinc
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I don't have that exact box to hand, but other Chempak bases include trace trace elements, apparently the same seven trace elements and in the same proportions as in all their fertilisers:
Boron
Copper
Iron
Magnesium
Manganese
Molybdenum
Zinc
Thanks Iann. I have a couple of the Chempak soluble fertilisers (no. 4 & no. eight*) & they do indeed contain trace elements. My comment concerned the John Innes base & was based on the information given in the link you cited. It seems that Chempak does not have a website at present.
* If I type the numeral I get a funny face when posted!
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8) Chempak, or the multinational parent conglomerate, went bust although the website was never much use anyway. There was an attempted management buyout and now Thompson and Morgan have bought out the horticultural bits. They have said they'll be keeping the Chempak brand.
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8) Chempak, or the multinational parent conglomerate, went bust although the website was never much use anyway. There was an attempted management buyout and now Thompson and Morgan have bought out the horticultural bits. They have said they'll be keeping the Chempak brand.
That is not really good news in my opinion. :-X
Eric
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My 25kg of Q4 is a powder. I got it from LBS.
Anne - I'm glad to hear it is still available in this form. Who or what is LBS?
Gerry I have just ordered 25K of Q4 from LBS it is in powder form.
go to www.lbsbuyersguide.co.uk If you play your cards right you may be able to get trade prices but they do retail as well, I use my old trade name from 25 years ago.
Derek
Thanks for this info Derek . I did not realise LBS did trade sales and have ordered on the retail site previously, even for business use. :'(
Eric