Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: mark smyth on January 01, 2008, 04:26:49 PM
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I've collected a number of previous threads on this subject here... Some of these posts are narcissus related also . - I was moved to do so by a recent conversation I saw ......
Q: Does stag cause snowdrop flowers to abort and turn to a brown mush in the spathe?
A: Yes it can do but the major sign is reddish brown marks on the leaves and scapes plus difformed leaves. Sweeten up your soil with extra humus and Trichoderma harzianum mycorhiza!
And use less fertiliser then.
Many Narcissus are now above ground with buds showing at ground level. Below is what I grow as 'Melvillei' and one of the ones I first got. It hasnt increased much and doesnt look special nor does the quite vigerous 'Atkinsii' Moccas form. Better late than never is my small group of elwesii Hiemalis Group
Our snowdrop days is only 6 week away and the 12c today isnt going to do anything to hold back the rush of Galanthus and Crocus. I was hoping to have a good display of the latter for visitors to see.
I've mention before now snowdrops taking a year out and then flowering normally. During the 2006 snowdrop season I was given a small non flowering bulb of G. 'Greenfinch'. Last year, 2007, it didnt appear so I thought a Narcissus fly has got it. Today while weeding I was very happy to see it above ground with a flower bud.
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About snowdrops after chipping when the chips refuse to form leaves, give them a week -1 celsius and if they still dont, repeat this. They will certainly start now.
Gerard, just so I understand fully... do you say to give the chips minus 1 degree celsius for a week? Thanks, Maggi
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Gerard, I don't know it in fahrenheit, either! ::)
It is very interesting technique, useful to be able to try that for other chips, too, perhaps.
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Gerard, I don't know it [-1oC] in fahrenheit, either! ::)
It is very interesting technique, useful to be able to try that for other chips, too, perhaps.
~30oF
I like DB's early byzantinus Mark.
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Help my poor head - what or who is "DB"?
Paddy
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I dont know and I dont know who sent them. They arrived in the post during the summer dormant, damp packed and excess water ruining the letter
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So, DB = Damp Bulbs?
Paddy
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Derek Bacon, forumist??
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I was going to say Del Boy. ::)
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David Bromley
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Ah ha! I like the delicate markings on the inner petals.
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Tony's remark started me thinking about which plants are freely shared
and which have become "collector's plants", with high prices and theft.
I wonder about the reasons. Maybe the plant needs to be rather slow at
increasing, and grow as "singles". No one is going to steal something that
forms a mat or gallops across the ground with runners..........
I think you are right. The plants that stay as "'collector's plants" are the poor weak feeble things that are difficult to grow or are prone to sudden death! If a plant is new and interesting it may command a high price but if it is too vigorous and/or too easily propagated then the price drops. In the snowdrop world I think I see this happening with 'Wendy's Gold', the yellow G. plicatus. At the plant sale following Joe Sharman's 'Galanthus Gala' last year I noticed that there were plenty of these left 'on the shelves'. It is an attractive and distinctive snowdrop but quite easy to grow. I had a single bulb that got half eaten-away but it managed to pull through and I seem to be getting about 8 flowers this year. And there are even dark rumours about micropropagation techniques that will have it turning up in garden centres eventually! So I'm expecting the price of this one to drop as it joins the ranks of snowdrops like 'magnet' that everybody has.
I think there is still money to be made by selling 'easy' plants like the pretty forms of the Lesser Celandine, Ranunculus ficaria. I grow a few of these in my garden and I can concentrate on which are the most attractive and the good doers without being prejudiced by how much I have spent to get one!
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Maggi, we use this technique also on lillie scales and it works. As long as they get their winterperiod its okay.
I could have kept this for myself, but you know me toooo enthusiastic and sharing information with colleages, members etc.
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Thanks, Gerard, I was thinking about lily scales.....some types seem less keen than others to grow leaves... now I know what to do. :D
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And there are even dark rumours about micropropagation techniques that will have it turning up in garden centres eventually!
I'm no expert Alan but from Joe's talk he seemed to be saying that the simple root of a snowdrop carries a fungus which is lost if micropropagation is tried. I got the impression that this meant you couldn't do it. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.
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I have seen the micropropping in action and it's happening here in Belfast. There is everything from the minutest slice up to potted bulbs. Roll on the day they, plicatus 'Wendy's Gold', will be hanging in garden centres up and down the country. I promised the man some specials but I no longer remember his name
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You dont use the roots for micropropagation Brian! So you wont have problems with fungus or nematodes.
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You dont use the roots for micropropagation Brian! So you wont have problems with fungus or nematodes.
What I meant to convey was that he seemed to be saying that this fungus was needed and as you rightly point out as you don't use the roots it wouldn't be available. I cannot believe that Joe Sharman wouldn't know about the micropropagation, so I must apologise for not making sense of my notes!
Mea culpa :'(
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Brian, I think you were right the first time... that Joe S. says/thinks that there is some sort of beneficial fungus associated withthe galanthus roots which would, of course, be lost in micropropagation, leading to problems because ofthat lack. Gerard took you to mean that there was a fear that because of a bad fungus then micropropagation would be affected to the detriment because of that fungus.......
There, I think I've cleared that up in MY mind..... anybody care to agree with my thinking here? :-[
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It was Joe who told me about the man "in Ireland"
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Brian the Galanthus from the green, do need that fungus indeed to get the nutrients in the soil available for the plant, its a sort of cooperation like here on the forum (sharing information). If you put them in a fresh other soil, sometimes it takes a while to settle.When i buy in the green, i also do take some of the original soil with me, because its not only the fungus but also the micro-organism.
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What I meant to convey was that he seemed to be saying that this fungus was needed and as you rightly point out as you don't use the roots it wouldn't be available....
This has me confused. You don't use the roots if you buy a dry bulb or you practise twin-scaling. Or does this fungus live within the basal plate when the snowdrop is dormant?
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Wild most likely sent to shipping agents and I would guess nivalis, woronowii and elwesii. Once in Holland for 3 months they're Dutch - allegedly
If you knew better Mark, me and my colleages here in Holland grow bulbs under strict regulations. After growing at least for one year it gets the certificate Dutch grown bulb. However the wholesale companies in Holland and the UK buy from allover the world and use the certificates from those they have bought from us. If that is what you ment to say its ok, otherwise you are talking BULL Mark and think first before you give a reply!
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Lovely afternoon in the garden today - not sunny but quite warm. A few pictures to share:
Comet (less green on the outer tips than last year - but early once again)
[attachthumb = 1]
Mrs McNamara (surprisingly strong scent)
[attachthumb = 2]
John Gray
[attachthumb = 3]
Penelope Anne
[attachthumb = 4]
Proculiformis
[attachthumb = 5]
Wendys Gold (seems really early - the other plant is well behind)
[attachthumb = 6]
Lyn (not very special but increases well)
[attachthumb = 7]
regards
John
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I said that and was repeating what was told to me when I worked in a garden centre. The garden centre bought direct from Holland and bought buy a lorry of plants at a time. I queried the Galanthus situation with them, the Dutch grower/supplier, and that was their answer to me
I think for the good of the forum as a whole I think major disagreements should be off forum and capitals never used.
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I'm supposed to be working on my book today and staying off the forum, but...
Mark, I really think Gerard has every right to try to clarify and correct your rather sweeping statements, which appear to be based on hearsay from a fellow garden centre employee (hardly the most authoritative source of information on the international bulb trade) rather than leave your comments unchallenged on the forum record for all to read and remonstrate with your in private. I'd hardly say it was a "major disagreement".
That's what the forum's for - to exchange information and views. You gave your view, which was sweeping and vague (you said "most likely sent to shipping agents" and then suggested in a general way that bulbs imported to Holland only had to be in the country for 3 months to be legally labelled Dutch bulbs. As a trade insider, Gerard had something to say about that. And quite rightly.
Like Gerard, I think it's unwise to make such sweeping allegations in a public forum on the basis of hearsay. There may well be a lot of wild-collected bulbs still being imported (by shippers of various nationality, not just Dutch) to the UK. But there are also laudable attempts being made to farm bulbs in a sustainable way to reduce wild collection. I prefer not to tar everyone in a particular country with the same brush. And I think that's Gerard's complaint.
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I do agree with all your saying Martin, we should not talk like a parrot and repeat what we have heard from "others". Thats for gossip forums!
I do grow bulbs for several years like my father did and his father and his father, and as i may say we do have a good reputation.
I dont want to loose that, because a bad reputation is easy to get, a good one you have to work and fight for.
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Hi Everyone
I am really sorry about this - I have tried to keep quiet and ignore all the bad karma that is going on in this thread - I even tried posting some nice photos to chear us all up. Please can we stop being nasty to each other.
It would be lovely to hear and see how peoples snowdrops are doing this January.
John
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John, 'John Gray' is looking very good - nice and upright - and I like 'Penelope Anne' too. Interesting that the former is out with 'Wendy's Gold', mine of which is still just about an inch above the soil, yet my 'John Gray' is well out.
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I agree John. I even butted out to try to put an end to it and let people get back to the snowdrops. But thoughtless remarks continue to be posted and cause offence to other forumists. I'm going back to work and will try to post a photo or two if I can find any snowdrops that aren't mud-splashed with all the rain.
Anne, I'm working on getting an improved Gal. 'John Gray' which will stand up and keep its face out of the mud. J. Gray is a perfect example of where a little imp;rovement through breeding would be very welcome, without creating monster snowdrops.
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Your completely right John, lets stop the gossip and think twice before you give a reply, so that nobody gets a bad feeling.
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Damn! I'm never going to get this book finished! ;D . John, I meant tol ask, did you get Penelope Anne from Hythe Alpines? It's quite shapely.
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Hi Martin
yes it came from Hythe Alpines - I thought I had better get it as they are closing down this summer and it may not be offered by other places for a while.
regards
John
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John, I can't recall whether Mike Smith described it as an elwesii type or what. And his latest catalogue and online listing doesn't say. The leaf tip in the pic looks like elwesii rather than plicatus. How tall is it?
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Martin - there does seem to have been some initial confusion re this snowdrop and some is indeed circulating as g. elwesii 'Penelope Ann'.
Mike Smith got it from Ann Borrill. Ann told me that she got it in the 1990's from Colin Mason and his label said g. caucasicus “all green inner” – parentage is unknown and Colin does not remember giving it to Ann, but he did raise a number of seedlings at the time.
Ann describes it as very vigorous & forming a nice clump.
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yes it's an elwesii and named after Ann Borill. I bought what might have been the last of them from Mike at the bulb sale last August but I'm sure he has more in the ground. It's a large flowered snowdrop on a stem that doesnt fall under the weight
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Hi Martin
Elwesii indeed - the label says "(originally Caucasicus green inner)".
John
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Hmmm. John's pic is the first I've seen of Penelope Ann, and I was thinking it's an unusual mark for an elwesii or monostictus. The mark's a little reminiscent of ikariae and so is the flower shape.
I know Colin Mason raised some elwesii seedlings with ikariae/Allenii looking flowers and strange pewter-green leaves in the 90s which may well be elwesii hybrids with ikariae, Allenii or something of that ilk. He gave me bulbs of one I spotted and pointed out in his garden (under a big shrub) and admired.
I wonder if Penelope Ann might be from the same source?
I'm hoping to visit Colin soon so I'll have a chat with him about it.
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Hi Martin
I have quickly taken a picture of the complete plant I received in the hope that it may be helpful.
John
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Thanks John. The leaves look fairly typical elwesii.
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here it is on my web site with ever present aphids.
http://www.snowdropinfo.com/elwesii-penelope-ann.html (http://www.snowdropinfo.com/elwesii-penelope-ann.html)
All snowdrops were sprayed today with Benlate and insecticide
John you asked how our gardens are doing - very well thanks full quota almost in flower now.
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three I have in flower at the moment
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I'm hoping to visit Colin soon so I'll have a chat with him about it.
Martin, if Colin is able to throw any more light on the origins of 'Penelope Ann', I would appreciate knowing, so that I can update my records.
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Okay Chris, I'll let you know.
Tony, nice pics. Lovely dark green mark on that plicatus, and nice wide textured outers too.
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hello galanthofiles.
i would like to see more photos of rare and new snowdrops , but the discussions also have interesting points.
i wonder why it takes so long before we can buy the rare varieties of snowdrops .
if colesborne had a small clump of elwesii 'carolyn elwess' in 1997, they should allready have thousands of them now , but maybe they only want to keep prices high or keep their collection unique.
i have to say that Colesborne has reasonable and honest prices when you are able to buy something.
with all the propagation techniques,
when they have 2 original bulbs for example , and it doubles each year , after 10 years you can have 2000 bulbs.
with the twin scaling they can make 20 bulbs in one year or more.
don't tell me that these wonderful snowdrops are all bad growers or that they don't devide every year or have diseases.
also the spiky snowdrops and the green ones you can never buy , only swap or so.
some snowdrops like 'Wasp' are not so very attractive in my opinion , but are sold for 25 pounds.
in germany Mr. endre Foldesi sold Galanthus krasnovii for 12 euros last year .
also colin Mason has good prices for often unique plants .
i looked on ebay too , but that's a bit too expensive for me.
some fools give lot of money for nothing special.
they only collect different names.
@ Gerard: must be very impressive to see your fields of snowdrops ....
when i have time to make photos i will post them too.
all best wishes, Wim
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Here is a pic of a little elwesii. I put it on the kitchen windowsill to get it to open, as the weather has been poor all day.
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Lovely pictures John and Tony, it has been raining all day here. We went to a talk given by Richard Hobbs this afternoon and I asked about the micropropagation. He assured me that it was because of the microrhiza not surviving in the sterile agar and that the micropropagation in Ireland was most likely micro-twinscaling. I don't pretend to understand the botany, but I think this might clear up the point I was making for Alan_b.
One thing Wim is that twinscaling is not as successful on some bulbs as it is on others and therefore one does have to be patient with some of them. Again if you try to get a lot of new bulbs by twinscaling into very small pieces they will take longer to get up to flowering size.
I hope it's better gardening weather tomorrow so I can get out and look at the snowdrops!
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I've just found a photo of one of the pots of Wendy but I cant find my photos of the walk in cabinets and all the pots
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...........when they have 2 original bulbs for example , and it doubles each year , after 10 years you can have 2000 bulbs.............
I find the mathematics of bulb growth interesting. In "Snowdrops" by Bishop et al they quote a paper by Rees that suggests that bulb growth follows a Fibonacci series (1-1-2-3-5-8-13-21-34-55-89-144 ...). If this were true then two mature bulbs would give you 288 bulbs after 10 years. I went to the library and read Rees' original paper but as far as I could tell this notion of a Fibonacci series was based on conjecture rather than experimental observation.
Rees' model, in effect, suggests that a mature bulb forms an offset each year but this offset takes another year to grow to maturity. So if you start with an offset (immature bulb) in year 1, in year two you have 1 mature bulb, in year three you have a mature bulb and an offset (so 2 bulbs), in year four last year's mature bulb forms another offset and last years offset grows to maturity (3 bulbs), the following year three mature bulbs and two offsets (5), then 8 etc etc.
Wim is also postulating that each bulb forms an offset each year but there is no maturation time required. Thus the number of bulbs doubles each year. So if you started with one bulb in year one you would have 8 bulbs by year 4. On the other hand if you had one bulb and twin-scaled it to form 10 tiny bulbs in year 2 which then take 2 more years to reach maturity then you would have 10 mature bulbs in year 4. So that would be 8 bulbs with minimal effort vs 10 bulbs with all the work and risk twin-scaling requires. I may be misunderstanding Wim's numbers but my point is you do need to compare the yields from normal growth vs twin-scaling to be sure the latter is worthwhile.
The maths can make a huge difference to the number of bulbs you have after 10 years! I think Wim is being a bit optimistic but the most vigorous snowdrops could probably out-perform a Fibonacci sequence given optimum conditions. Has anyone kept track of this by counting the growth of their own snowdrops?
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Hello Alan,
thank you ! i agree with your calculations,
but i think some plants will multiply much faster than others.
where i live Galanthus plicatus and elwesii increase fast , even the rare ones. some do x 4 and x5 in one year.
most of them make flowers too.
But they don't do it every year!
they would maybe more devide when i dig up the clumps every 2 years and plant them all apart.
in 2 years i allready have nice little clumps of gracilis and for example greenfields.
the hybrids are doing good too.
i have bad results for all the Galanthus nivalis as i have very dry soil .
i have lot of work to add compost .
how many you can make in 10 years depends on what plant you are talking about , the care you give them and the type of soils , humus and humidity.
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Some named snowdrop varieties barely increase at all by normal division. I find some, like Mighty Atom and John Gray, will often sit still and stay as single bulbs for a number of years before getting big enough to split. Maybe I don't feed as much as I should. But other snowdrops in the garden, which are equally under-fed increase much faster.
Generally speaking, there's a very wide range of bulking-up speeds between different snowdrops. In the wild, snowdrops are generally found as single bulbs, with just the occasional clump where an individual has the genetic makeup required to make it a splitter.
Also some just are more prone to disease, often through old age but also through being prone to virus.
With the slow-increasers, chipping is certainly an advantage as you can get a clump in 3 years, while with natural division you might wait 5-6-7 years or more for a good clump to develop from one bulb, if the bulb doesn't rot or get eaten by narcissus fly while building up enough to split.
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if I can find any snowdrops that aren't mud-splashed with all the rain
says Martin.....
I was most impressed with John's drops, they are whiter than white! Lovley drops and lovely photos, all of you.. just a delight to see... so, what have we got out in our garden in Aberdeen?..... I can tell you very simply, still just the one, very lonely snowie flower that has been doing its solitary thing for the last couple of weeks! :-X An un-named one, a gift from President Ian :D Where all the others are, I don't know, I can only imagine they have some premonition of ghastly weather to come and are keeping underground till they think its safe ??? This is the slowest beginning to a year that I can remember for a long time. Thank goodness you guys have got some flowers to interest us all.
John, do I remember that you recently got a new camera? Your shots are great, whatever. I have to admit that a snowie can be very photogenic :-[
Your G. 'John Gray' looks to be staying sturdy, John...everyone elses' seem to flop... :'(
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Maggi, I suspect most of John's and Tony's are in pots kept under cover. Also, they weren't stupid enough to put chicken manure around all their snowdrops just before one of the wettest and splashiest winter periods on record, like wot I was! :-\
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they weren't stupid enough to put chicken manure around all their snowdrops just before one of the wettest and splashiest winter periods on record, like wot I was!
Martin, at least the cold wet weather keeps the ghastly smell of the hen-pen (chicken manure) down, doesn't it? :P
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Some days ago there were comments on G. 'John Gray' and its bad habit of lying down. At the time my clump of 'John Gray' was looking especially good, standing up very well, nice and clean and opening nicely. Yesterday afternoon it rained heavily and the very sheltered position Mary had given to 'John Gray' was good enough to save them. They are all sprawled about and the only saving grace is that I have them mulched with pebble which keeps them somewhat clean. Pride comes before a fall it seems.
Paddy
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Maggi,
My present garden project is the construction of a hen run for Mary. Luckily I have placed it well away from any precious snowdrops. I wonder if I could collect the pellets?
Paddy
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Paddy, chicken manure straight from the hen house might be a bit strong unless aged, perhaps in with some garden compost or leafmould. The stuff I'm using is the pelleted chicken manure that you get from garden centres in tubs and bags, compressed pellets that swell up to triple their size when wetted.
Unfortunately I was very generous with them, so some snowdrops almost disappeared under the swelling masses of chicken pooh. They don't mind, as it doesn't tend to burn the leaves, and will grow up through it, but the flowers after all the torrential rain look disgusting!
Maggi, are you ready for this? I'd sit down if I were you. Okay? Right - the pellets don't smell awful. They smell vaguely of chocolate! (at least to my nose).
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I meant to say, I think the pellets are not pure chicken manure, but mixed with some form of organic peat-like material, maybe composted straw? Anyway, when they swell, they're not like slimey chicken pooh but more like fluffy wet wheetabix. Maybe it's a composted mix of pooh and bedding (straw, sawdust etc).
And I've no idea why they smell a bit chocolatey, unless it's pooh from chocolate chicken.
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Paddy, I think you meant to say "a run for Mary's chickens" but the arrangements made between man and wife are not mine to question, I suppose ::)
Martin, I cannot imagine what sort of wierd stuff they are selling you down in Gloucester but up here, pelleted chicken manure smells flippin' awful ! :-X :-\ :'(
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'The Whopper' stems here have been extending and extending. Today they were at 45 degrees and I'm sure any day they will hit the dirt. 'Cicely' is only just showing a flower between the leaves.
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Going back to Rob's pic on the previous page: Reply #618 on: Today at 06:20:28 PM »
Does anybody else see the face of a Cossack in that snowie? He's wearing a big fur hat and has a huge droopy moustache. Fab!
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While searching (for Tony's pix of the roadside with the hybrids crocus) on the Old Forum, I was struck by how many wonderful pags there are ther forthis most dleightful of plants... for those of you who are new to this forum the (archived/read only) pages for Crocus can be found here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/discus/messages/5012/5012.html?1163445358
The main topic index page is here: http://www.srgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi?pg=topics
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I'm still with Martin's chocolate chickens. Surely they will have hatched from Easter eggs? ;)
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Maggi,
I chocolate fine - my hen run will be run in by my wife. They are her hens (and one duck, she hopes).
Paddy
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Maybe I'm just not getting enough chocolate, Maggi. I think there's a box of dark French chocolate truffles in the cupboard...
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when they have 2 original bulbs for example , and it doubles each year , after 10 years you can have 2000 bulbs.
The grower of a rare snowdrop will only get the highest possible increase
by not selling any. Every bulb sold is lost as a producer of new bulbs, unless
it was bought by someone who also sells bulbs. If we all want the chance
to buy new snowdrops, the original owner should never sell any till he has
enough to flood the market. Meantime, cut flowers of it will be exhibited
and photographs published, guards and guard dogs will patrol the garden,
and people will sell their favourable positions on the inevitable waitlist.
I read an article a long time ago about daffodils. The writer did the math
about buying one new daffodil for ? $250 ? (this was a really long time ago
so I just remember the general idea, not the actual numbers). This turned
out to be a good idea, as by the time that daffodil had dropped to the normal
price, the value of the bulb's offspring exceeded its original price,and meanwhile,
the forward-thinking person had had years of pleasure.
This helped form my philosophy of buying, but whoever wrote the daffodil
article obviously lived in an area that didn't have narcissus fly.
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Paddy, why only ONE duck?
Martin, I KNOW there are dark chocolate French truffles in my cupboard 8) I should get to them some time next week :)
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This turned
out to be a good idea, as by the time that daffodil had dropped to the normal
price, the value of the bulb's offspring exceeded its original price,and meanwhile,
the forward-thinking person had had years of pleasure.
I mostly agree with this theory, Diane but can give a personal instance of it NOT working out so well... I paid about £6.50 each for three Tulipa neustreuvae (spelling?) bulbs...... this was quite some time ago... felt very rash at paying so much... they were quite pretty, but some years later when the price had dropped to a fraction of what i paid , I still only had about eight bulbs.... as bad as the falling stock market! :-[ :P
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I was most impressed with John's drops, they are whiter than white!
And I didn't even have to wash them!
John, do I remember that you recently got a new camera? Your shots are great, whatever. I have to admit that a snowie can be very photogenic :-[
Hi Maggi - yes, got a new camera early last year. It is not an SLR but takes good enough pictures for me. I still get loads of rubbish blurred overexposed pictures - but with the memory card that is in it I can take well over 1000 photos - then I load them on the laptop and delete the 900 that are rubbish!
Your G. 'John Gray' looks to be staying sturdy, John...everyone elses' seem to flop... :'(
John Gray has spent the last 2 weeks lolling about in the dirt - then yesterday it stood up perfectly. It wasn't sunny but was about 13c - it must have been what they needed to stand up proudly. 8)
____________________________________________________________________
John
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The grower of a rare snowdrop will only get the highest possible increase
by not selling any. Every bulb sold is lost as a producer of new bulbs, unless
it was bought by someone who also sells bulbs. If we all want the chance
to buy new snowdrops, the original owner should never sell any till he has
enough to flood the market. Meantime, cut flowers of it will be exhibited
and photographs published, guards and guard dogs will patrol the garden,
and people will sell their favourable positions on the inevitable waitlist....
I agree with what you say but of course the grower of a rare snowdrop does not want to get the highest possible increase; he/she wants to make the most possible money. Cut flowers and photographs are all very well but people will want to see the thing for themselves so if the grower sells (or swaps) a few to some influential and much-visited collections I'm sure this will further stimulate demand. And the last thing the grower wants is for people to know he/she has enough to flood the market because they are not going to pay as much!
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The grower of a rare snowdrop will only get the highest possible increase
by not selling any.
I agree with what you say but of course the grower of a rare snowdrop does not want to get the highest possible increase; he/she wants to make the most possible money.
Hi All - my two pennies worth (or is that penneths worth?).
I still have faith in human nature and hope that not all growers of a rare plant are out to make vast amounts of money. Personaly, if I have enough of a plant to pass some on, I don't charge people money even if does cost £30+ in the first place. If they want to swap something in return that's great - but not esential.
John
p.s. - an afer thought....
Of course, I wasn't considering poeple who make their living at selling plants - and that is the topic that started the conversation in the first place. I think I shall just shut up at this point and get back to planning what to do for lunch. ::)
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Martin, if Colin is able to throw any more light on the origins of 'Penelope Ann', I would appreciate knowing, so that I can update my records.
Ann says that it was originally from Colin and labelled as Caucasicus all green inner. Ann, and Mike Smith, grew it on and subsequently Mike started selling it as such. On the way back from a show one day Mike suggested it would be good if it was named for the customers. Ann then got in touch with Colin and asked him if he'd like to name it, his opinion was that there were too many named varieties but didn't mind if they named it it was then named after Ann. Subsequently of course there have been far more names given. She thinks of it as either an elwesii x elwesii or as elwesii x monostictus. Hope that helps, and perhaps Colin can throw more light on it's original breeding.
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Maggi,
Why one duck? I don't know really; Mary has just signalled her intentions of getting four hens and one duck and I am just preparing the run for them.
Re these rare snowdrops and the extravagent prices: when people are in the business of making money it is to be expected that they will wish to make as much money as possible and if they are doing nothing illegal we have no reason to complain. They offer their snowdrops for sale and we can purchase or decide not to purchase.
Paddy
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wee duck or a lovely Muscovey
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They offer their snowdrops for sale and we can purchase or decide not to purchase.
Quite so Paddy, so I did. Godfrey Owen is one of the expensive ones and I hope it will settle down by next year. You can see the six outers well from the back and there is one photo looking up his trousers! I am pleased with Wasp, but didn't think it would be quite so tall...another expensive one.
So obviously I need a fierce guard, here is young Tibbs - not as fierce as he looks as he is eating a bit of stipa tenuissima!
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More of those in pots, Sutton Courtenay is bulking up nicely!
Hobson's Choice is one of the Anglesey Abbey mob. To me one of the most distinctive and attractive is Lapwing, when we were at Ashwood's last year John had a nice clump of these. Sibbertoft white is a delicate little flower, I can't wait to see a clump of this one (the scalpel calls) Washfield Colesbourne on the other hand has a robust green marking on the inners
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Venturing out into the garden they are just getting going, as I have said before the difference in flowering time around the country amazes me. Always a sucker for names I bought By Gate (syn. Warburg No eight) just to plant by the gate :-X Instantly recognizable is Diggory, named after Rosie Steele's late son. Isn't he plumptious Maggie? Next is Ding Dong, suffering from last summer I think as there is only one flower. Edinburgh Ketton has a mucky H shaped mark and here is John Gray bending under the weight of the flower as it matures
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I wish that I had taken this picture of Kyre Park as it first came out, it's just going over. When it's in a clump it's a lovely thing. Joe Sharman had some at the RHS a couple of years ago. The first 'drop I was given by Ann Borrill was good old Maidwell L, still a nice snowdrop. Quite different is the lovely Modern Art, but I'd like to get a Courteen Hall as I believe it is more robust. Lastly for the moment as it started to rain is Silverwells
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Diggory, named after Rosie Steele's late son
Terrible tragedy to lose a son, or any child but how nice to have such a fine snowdrop named for him and to ensure his name is remembered widely.
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Brian, I think you have become my very best friend. ;D What a superb set of snowdrops/pics. 8) I do like 'Godrey Owen'. Wasn't he a cricketer (if he wasn't, he should have been)? Or was that Godfrey Evans?
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Nice green spodge on Kyre Park but that Lapwing is a stunner!
I find myself, perhaps because in another existence I was an Art Reviewer/Critic, that Modern Art appeals greatly to me.... I am getting worried now... hunger and an intimate appreciation of snowies.... what's the phone number for NHS 24 ? :-[
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Thankyou Anthony, I don't know who Godfrey was apart from the fact that it was named after Margaret Owen's husband.
Maggiewhat's the phone number for NHS 24 ?
don't you mean Cadbury's? ;D
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don't you mean Cadbury's?
No Brian, I've got that one it's 0121 451 4444 ;D
Nestlé is 00800 63785385
...... you see ,I am well prepared for most eventualities.... 8)
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Here is an elwesii from wild source, very round petals. I am not specialist of Galanthus but i like them. Is it ordinary or particular ?
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Cripes Brian. Snowdrops are like buses. You wait ages for one then half a dozen come along at once! Brilliant! 8)
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Brian,
What a display of the great and the good - and the expensive, no doubt. All looking well and I must agree with you that 'Lapwing' is an excellently marked snowdrop.
Dominique,
Is it special - yes, if you like it. G. elwesii is very variable and a great variety of markings will be encountered even in the same clump. If you like it, then treasure it.
Paddy
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Really Anthony it was yesterday's unseasonal warmth that got them to lift their skirts. Until now they have just been hanging and on the verge of showing their marks. I really thought we were way behind others on the forum eg Mrs Macnamara is still just about to come out of bud, mind you it could also be that I had so much clearing to do that I had to spend more time in the garden yesterday and so I noticed them more ::)
Thanks Paddy, some were expensive, but then they weren't ... ERNIE has funded their purchase so far and so I kid myself that I haven't spent anything. Again some people spend their money on cars, drink, expensive holidays...and so on. I seem to have none left by the time I have spent it on the garden ;D
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Who's "ERNIE"?
Paddy
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Sorry I should have explained that it is the national premium bond scheme in England, I believe there is an Irish one too. Basically it is a gamble on whether your "winnings" equate to, or outdo savings elsewhere, and basically I suppose I am a gambler!
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Sorry I should have explained that it is the national premium bond scheme in England, I believe there is an Irish one too. Basically it is a gamble on whether your "winnings" equate to, or outdo savings elsewhere, and basically I suppose I am a gambler!
And ERNIE is the name of the machine that picks the winning premium bond numbers - ERNIE = Electronic Random Number .... something.....something.
Anyone else getting a lot of signs of stagonospora on the snowdrop leaves and flower buds this year? I'm getting loads, and lots of snowdrops not even appearing (presumed gone during the wet, wet summer). Lots of leaves coming up with red-brown 'scorched' tips and brown-red stained flower buds.
Never had it this bad before. Must be the wet summer - Matt Bishop reported in last year's (I think) RHS Daffs, Snowdrops and Tulips Yearbook that he recently lost almost his entire collection to stagonospora when he temporarily planted them in a patch that was wet all year round during a garden move. I've always said a dry(ish) summer rest is essential, but never had it proven so worryingly before.
I'll have to start lifting affected bulbs to see what's happening below soil level.
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Minor Scottish gripe here, chaps, ERNIE is a BRITISH scheme!!
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Anyone else getting a lot of signs of stagonospora on the snowdrop leaves and flower buds this year? I'm getting loads, and lots of snowdrops not even appearing (presumed gone during the wet, wet summer). Lots of leaves coming up with red-brown 'scorched' tips and brown-red stained flower buds....
I have one or two plants with some unpleasant marks on the leaves but I have not noticed any problems with flower buds. Do you have, or can you point us at, some pictures of what stagonospora looks like?
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ERNIE = Electronic Random Number .... something.....something.
Electronic Random Number Indicator Equipment
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Here is a link to some pictures that Mark posted last year of stagonospora
Stagonora curtisii is a fungal infection. Symptoms are leaves, sheaths and bulbs with red streaks and spots. Leaves usually have a kink where the infection is/was. Flowers can abort in the spathe and turn grey. Two of the best collections were recently nearly wiped out.
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John
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Minor Scottish gripe here, chaps, ERNIE is a BRITISH scheme!!
Sorry Maggie, but you see I am not quite as nationalistic, to me England would mentally include Scotland, Wales and Ireland (My goodness dare I post this?). I just can't see a difference, we all live in one country and if it is the UNITED kingdom I wouldn't mind if you regarded me as living in Southern Scotland...after all letters to the North used to be addressed to N.B as Northern Britain I believe.
I will now duck under the flak that is coming my way :-X
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I'm too flabbergasted for flak, Brian :( :o
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Here are Mark's photos of Stagonora curtisii affected plants:
click to enlarge
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[attachthumb=2]
[attachthumb=3]
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Sorry Maggie, but you see I am not quite as nationalistic, to me England would mentally include Scotland, Wales and Ireland (My goodness dare I post this?). I just can't see a difference, we all live in one country and if it is the UNITED kingdom I wouldn't mind if you regarded me as living in Southern Scotland...after all letters to the North used to be addressed to N.B as Northern Britain I believe.
I will now duck under the flak that is coming my way :-X
Oh My God! Brian, you do know they have all the nuclear-armed subs up there! Please stop provoking them!
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Jings. Saying England when you mean Britain is a hanging offence in Scotland. :o
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you do know they have all the nuclear-armed subs up there
And vast quantities of toxic nuclear waste........
Saying England when you mean Britain is a hanging offence in Scotland
Which is letting them off to lightly, in my opinion.... especially the TV commentators :P
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Thanks to John and Maggi (and, of course, Mark) for the horror pics of stagonospora in action. Is it treatable? The only fungicide I have is a spray containing sulphur disolved in fatty acids. I have used this a few times on snowdrop bulbs that have been eaten by insects in the hopes of protecting the exposed interior of the bulb before I replanted it. The sprayed bulbs have always survived without ill-effect but I have no idea if the spray had any positive action.
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Alan, have a look at this thread from the PBS wiwk... this post and others following it give useful advice... ot sure whixch systemic fungicides are currently permissable for use in the UK but it seems any is worth a go.. there is other advice for treating affected bulbs, too.
Well, that would have worked better if I had added the link in the first place! so, here it is :
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/pbs/2004-October/019797.html
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Unfortunately, the fungicides that help (Bavistin/carbendazim and benlate) are no longer sold for amateur gardeners to use in the UK. So unless you know a friendly professional gardener, nurseryman, landscape outfit or keeper of a bowling green (carbendazim is used as a fungicide on bowling greens) who can help, it's a problem. But at least now you know the fungicides that work on stagonospora and the other things that do for snowdrops (e.g. grey mould). I imagine there are ways (maybe internet, or the options already outlined). ;) carbendazim (Bavistin is one brand name for it) is said to ne best for control of stagonospora. Benlate was good for grey mould.
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Three snowdrop pics from March 2003 that are as near as I have come to succumbing to this insane addiction....three images from a tiny churchyard in Shropshire, England that sent the pulses racing just a tiny bit.....
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Ah, that's the kind of churchyard I expected to find all over England
when I visited in snowdrop season. I had been reading articles about
people finding interesting flowers among the thousands growing in old
churchyards. I never found such a churchyard, though. All the ones
I visited were growing only closely-mown grass.
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However pretty an individual flower may be, there is something magical about massed ranks of flowers that it would take a hard heart to resist ;)
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Plenty of these places in the north of England and Scotland
Someone sent me an email today asking if I would send one of each of my photos for their own database the cheek.
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I was introduced to staganopara three years ago when visiting the the garden of one of the ''elite'' in the snowdrop world and I came away without buying anything after observing the lack of hygiene by the owner when lifting his plants for sale.The garden was badly infected in several places and I was even offered a very desirable variety from an infected batch providing that I was prepared to take the risk.After having seen the same fork used to lift others and the same bucket of water used to wash the soil off everything I had no option but to decline.The worrying thing is that I was told that this garden was one of the sources of supply to one of our very reputable suppliers so I am not surprised at the increasing incidence of this nasty disease.I did find it in a clump of Ketton in my own garden and immediately lifted the clump separating tne worst for burning and soaking the remainder in a solution of Bavastin for 24hrs.before replanting in an isolated position in my veg.garden and away from any other snowdrops.I am pleased to say that they are now appear to be healthy having been rturned to the snowdrop area last year.
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Well, haven't we all been busy. 8 days and 17 pages in this thread alone. Amazing!! Giving us this specific area for snowies has lead the white fever to advance in great leaps and bounds.
And even 15 pages later I am STILL crying over the image of the thousands of snowdrops at the end of the village, as was mentioned earlier. And some of the elwesii you guys can pick up at the local shops. They're better than 90% of the named ones I have here!! <sob!>
Yes, I'm jealous!! ::)
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....And some of the elwesii you guys can pick up at the local shops. They're better than 90% of the named ones I have here!! <sob!>
Of course, the other way to look at this is to wonder if we're not all crazy here; paying huge prices for named snowdrops when you can find some equally good ones down the local garden centre!
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I actually bought a pot with four bulbs labelled "Galanthus nivalis lutescens" at a garden centre (albeit Dougal Philp's) for £4 a few years ago. It is a superb yellow 'Sandersii' and clumps up really well.
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If you can bear with me here are some photos from a members garden this afternoon. I know one will get Anthony excited...a nice little clump of Rosemary Burnham. Also to go with my previous post of Godfrey Owen here is his wife Margaret. I was particularly pleased to see a couple of locally found/named snowdrops, Yaffle and Norfolk Blonde (found in Rosie Steele's garden and named for her), it's not fully out but how full of promise is this photo...and one from Suffolk - Naughton, quite a substantial flower. One of the nicest I saw was an elwesii poculiformis. Best of all it was a warm afternoon, dry and with just a little (but too much for many photos) wind.
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I should emphasize that these are not from our garden! There were a great number of quite different snowdrops and I was lucky enough to be given one which originated from Ray Cobb - aren't gardeners wonderful people? One which is a seedling with Trym origins is Megan, and I was quite taken with the delicate lines on Jessica. Wasp was more mature than mine and a bit bigger and there was also Fieldgate Prelude and Fenstead End. Just to prove I'm not entirely snowdrop doodelally a lovely Daphne. the bulbhouse and a view of leucojums, snowdrops, garrya and hellebores. I hope you enjoy them as much as I did. :D
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We are probably used to seeing unusual snowdrops in little clumps surrounded by bare earth. Here is a picture of some still in situ where I originally found them in 2004. I do also have some in my garden; taken with the permission of the land-owner. They appear very similar to the surrounding nivalis snowdrops except:
a) The leaves are bright green rather than the normal glaucous green.
b) There is a tiny green mark on the end of the outer petals (you probably won't be able to see this as I have had to reduce the size of the image).
c) They also flower a bit earlier than the surrounding 'drops, making them much more conspicuous now than they would be in a week or two.
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They also flower a bit earlier than the surrounding 'drops, making them much more conspicuous now than they would be in a week or two.
That creates a really nice effect Alan.
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That creates a really nice effect Alan.
You have mother nature to thank for it.
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Nice set of photos Brian. That Norfolk Blond looks very floriferous and has now been added to my wants list! (Yaffle has been on my wants list for a while already!).
A very good collection you visited. Was it a snowdrop lunch?
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John
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Can anybody help me identify what was wrong with these leaves? They are from a little clump of 'colossus' and fortunately these are the only leaves affected. I sprayed them with my sulphur in fatty acids fungicide about a week ago (so you may see a pale residue) then decided to remove them completely. Basically, the leaves seem to be curling up and dieing back from the tip. I can see no problem with the flowers.
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Stagnospora?
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I don't like the look of them Alan, but I am no expert :-\ If they were mine I would have the clump up and inspect the bulbs, then put them in an infirmary pot and plant something else in fresh soil where they were -not a snowdrop. If anything was going on with the bulb I would try chipping it to see if it could be saved. You cannot be too careful and don't want it to spread to the others in the clump...I get very jittery at things like this as you can tell!in fresh
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Was it a snowdrop lunch?
Well I suppose it was John, we had lunch, we looked at snowdrops ;D ;D
Here is another that I am very impressed with, a large poculiform elwesii, Wow
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I'm with Anthony
Nice elwesii, Brian
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Hi Brian
that Elwesii proculiformis is a stunner too - what a lucky lad you were to visit such a good collection. I have seen and admired one before that was posted in a thread somewhen by Diane Whitehead. Yep, another at the top of my wants list!
You guys must stop posting all these great pictures as I am left feeling rather inadequate!
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John
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OK will stop forthwith?
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OK will stop forthwith?
If you DARE!
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I've been admiring the recent photographs posted but unfortunately I have been suffering with flu all week and not been able to get out and take some of my own. I have posted a couple that I took last week just so I don't feel left out :)
If I get the photos attached correctly, you should see Diggory and Rosemary Burnham.
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Great Pictures David.
sorry to hear you have been under the weather - me too! I keep thinking it has gone and then suddenly feel cr*p again and sleep for 18 hours a day!
How come everyone seems to have Rosemary Burnham except me! I may have to try the coloured liquid in a vase with a snowdrop in it, that someone did last year, to see if I can get a cheap mans version of R. B.
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John
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John,
It looks like we have more in common than just our current state of health! I don't have Rosemary Burnham either. I do have a photograph though!
I hope that you feel better soon.
David
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:(and I don`t have her eighter nor any other stunning drops you all seem to have. :)
well,that`s not entirly true,I hope to get a trym this summer.
hope it will bulk up soon so I have things to swap.
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And I have to say I may have seen a nice clump but the nearest I can do is Greenish which is about to come out, this is just for Maggie who obviously by her last remark wants to see more pictures of 'drops ;D ;D ;D
Hope you are recovering David, you've only got a fortnight before GC day :o
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Rob, Narcissus, Galanthus and all other Amarylids can get infected with Stag. Amaryllis are the worst and as far as I know they are all infected.
Tulip Fire according to the 'net is caused by Botrytis tulipae. Botrytis will attack snowdrops emerging through composted bark if it is applied after the snowdrops emerge
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Here's a not so good photo of 'Greenfinch' stuck in a trough on the north side of the house. In the same trough is a snowdrop that I havent a clue what it is.
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And I have to say I may have seen a nice clump but the nearest I can do is Greenish which is about to come out,
There's no sign of mine yet. I may have to do a little gentle digging to see what's happened.
Hope you are recovering David, you've only got a fortnight before GC day :o
I know. I'm supposed to be going to Colesbourne on Saturday with my wife. She's ill too but is a couple of days behind me so it will be touch and go. The frustrating thing is that I can see the snowdrops out of the window but can't go out to look closer yet. My fear is that they will be past their best due to the warm weather before I am well enough to get out again.
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Hi David
we are meant to be going to Colesbourne on Saturday too - as long as there are no floods! - and my other half doesn't sucumb to the lurgy too!
Say hi if we all get there. I will not be able to spot you from your profile - but we are easily spotted, the fat bald blokes in camouflage! ;D
John
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Ross Kemp lookalike!
The snowdrop above is 'Modern Art'
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Rob, Narcissus, Galanthus and all other Amarylids can get infected with Stag. Amaryllis are the worst and as far as I know they are all infected.
Tulip Fire according to the 'net is caused by Botrytis tulipae. Botrytis will attack snowdrops emerging through composted bark if it is applied after the snowdrops emerge
It's a different form of botrytis that attacks snowdrops - Botrytis galanthina, commonly known as grey mould, so snowdrops can't catch botrytis from tulips. But, as Mark points out, narcissus can pass stagonospora to snowdrops and vice versa.
I've never had any problems with botrytis in my exposed windy garden. It tends to be more of a problem where the air is still and damp - e.g. low-lying damp gardens with plenty of shelter. If there's one thing I don't have on my wind-battered hillside it's shelter! You may also get it on bulbs under glass if not well ventilated, especially in wet, mild weather.
When you do get botrytis, you'll see it as a mass of grey-white fluffy mould growth around the base of the leaves where they emerge from the soil.
But I do seem to be getting quite a bit of what looks like stagonospora, probably due to last year's extremely wet summer here in the West of England. Year-round wet soil seems to bring it on - Matt Bishop lost most of his collection when he put his bulbs temporarily in a patch where the soil was wet in summer, during a move.
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I was going to suggest Modern Art, above, Mark due to the markings - but it look a little plump for that!...
Ross Kemp indeed, I wish - it is usualy Steve Macfadden that I am accused of (ie. the fat one!)
John
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Was it a snowdrop lunch?
Well I suppose it was John, we had lunch, we looked at snowdrops ;D ;D
Here is another that I am very impressed with, a large poculiform elwesii, Wow
In case anyone else, besides me, doesn't understand the term 'poculiform' this may save them looking it up!
http://www.biology.lsu.edu/heydrjay/ThomasSay/terms.html#P
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It's not there David. Maggi edit: Yes it is : under proculiform syn. poculiform
A poculiform snowdrop is one where the inner petals are the same, or almost, shape and length as the other petals. They are usually all white or can carry green tips.
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It's not there David.
A poculiform snowdrop is one where the inner petals are the same, or almost, shape and length as the other petals. They are usually all white or can carry green tips.
It is Mark but spelt as 'proculiform' with 'poculiform' in ]]
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Hi David
we are meant to be going to Colesbourne on Saturday too - as long as there are no floods! - and my other half doesn't sucumb to the lurgy too!
Say hi if we all get there. I will not be able to spot you from your profile - but we are easily spotted, the fat bald blokes in camouflage! ;D
John
Hi John,
I will definitely say hello should we see you at the weekend. I really should get my profile sorted but I just haven't got round to it yet.
I'll probably have a grey bobble hat type thing on my head (without the bobble) and be carrying a black camera rucksack. Apart from that I'm not sure what I'll be wearing on the day :)
I hope to see you on Saturday.
David
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I'll probably have a grey bobble hat type thing on my head (without the bobble) and be carrying a black camera rucksack. Apart from that I'm not sure what I'll be wearing on the day
we are easily spotted, the fat bald blokes in camouflage!
Oh good grief..... David, with a bobbleless hat and a wife with the flu and the Mitchell brothers in camouflage...... You galanthophiles are in danger of looking like a bunch of overgrown trainspotters!
The Croconuts are more stylish, I'm sure :-X
Nice 'drops All, by the way ::) Can't believe I said that :-[
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He forgot about wet knees from praying to all things white with bits of green
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In case anyone else, besides me, doesn't understand the term 'poculiform' ...
I always thought it was a technical/biologocal term meaning the snowdrops looked poculiar .... or 'peculiar', as it is more commonly spelt!
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Oh good grief..... David, with a bobbleless hat and a wife with the flu and the Mitchell brothers in camouflage...... You galanthophiles are in danger of looking like a bunch of overgrown trainspotters!
So Maggie, should I leave the binoculars, notepad, sandwiches wrapped in greasproof paper and flask at home ::)
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Once again I have to disagree with Mark and his categorical statement that snowdrops will get botrytis if mulched with composted bark.This from my experience over 30yrs.is just not true.I have been applying it to my extensive snowdrop plantings by the ton and more often than not after they have started to re-emerge.I use it mainly to show off the snowdrops and cover the last remnants 0f debris and I have had no experience of boytritis.It is an excellent mulch and many of the snowdrop ''intelligencia''who have seen my collection would vouch for it's good health.Please,if you want to be so catergorical be sure of your facts.
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should I leave the binoculars, notepad, sandwiches wrapped in greasproof paper and flask at home
Strictly speaking, I think you should, David.... but since Ian and I always carry similar kit when we go out... I may not be the best person to advise on these matters ::)
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I have to agree with John Gennard on the Bark question... we too have used copius quantities of bark over the years and never had any botrytis problems in the garden.... it was a very useful mulch and the only reason we don't use it nowadays is because we are self-sufficient in shredded hedge ets to use in place of bark.
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Wow, love those pics of Diggory and Rosemary Burnham (spelling? 2 pages back and I've forgotten. ::)). Both really lovely!!
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John I go to two gardens where bark is widely used as a mulch and often spread after emergence and I see mould where the bark lies against the snowdrops. Doesnt the sheath protect the leaves and flower stems as they push through the ground but the leaves cant take the permanent moisture beside them once free. I always add mulch in the autumn before any noses will be poking through. Maybe if the mulch is added before the sheath opens it is able to extend beyond the top of the mulch
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when does Ian/you apply it, Maggi? Would it be added when bulbs are pushing through? I've been to Margaret's garden days after the mulch has been added and seen leaves fail to emerge and get stuck below the mulch. Where bulbs are pushing up through leaves the sheaths extend, often bringing the leaves with them, until the tip reaches the light
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Theoretically we apply mulch when anything herbaceous is dormant... but, being us, we actually might put in down at any time that's convenient. Can't think of anything that has got really stuck in it or seems to have suffered. wWe might scrape the mulch away slightly from anything that was over three or four inches high when we spread but we can't do that with everything so most stuff just takes its chances.
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Maggi, I think I recall Ian or yourself saying that you had a very good, not too noisy shredder/chipper. Can you recommend a good, quiet make and model? I also have lots of hedges that would supply vast quantities of mulch if I could chip the clippings.
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As for mulch over bulbs? Here I'd do it at the holidays when, hopefully, the ground is frozen. It'll help keep the ground frozen a bit longer in spring and the bulbs, dormant at application, will grow right through it without skipping a beat...or skiting in the glar.
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we would thoroughly recommend that you invest in a shredder, Martin. All those prunings, clippings etc are too good to waste and even if you cut that stuff down as much as you can beofre comosting, it can take forever to break down whereas shredding break down fast, especially in a biggish heap and make lovely mulch or compost additive. Our machine is a Mountfield with a five horse power Briggs and Stratton engine. Seems lots of machine have that type of engine ,so it is a question of finding a model/make that suits you forthe way it loads/spits out the end product.... the Mountfield is not too bulky, quite easily moved around the garden and has a large and convenient feed-hopper. The outlet tube is curved over, and we fill into a sack attached, which has to be emptied quite often... if getting another we would look for a type that would fill out to an easier method, perhaps... though that may not exist in the smaller, more domestic sized machines.
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Mark, do you mean composted bark or raw uncomposted barks chips? In my experience, composted bark is fine, but raw uncomposted bark chips can be more of a problem (for any plants, not just snowdrops) especially if used thickly. Also, there's well-composted fine bark and rough barely-composted shredded bark which is more like bark chips. Often at snowdrops events I've heard "bark" being trotted out as bad without it being made clear exactly what (and how well composted) it is that's being talked about.
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Maggi, at the moment I don't cut the hedges back and down as much as I should (so they get ever bigger and the garden gets ever smaller) because I wouldn't know what to do with all the prunings - my compost heap wouldn't cope unless I could reduce the bulk by chipping (actually, I do much of my composting in bin bags). So I think a shredder has to be a priority ths year.
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I used to pile all my branches on a big pile and would climb up on top
and jump up and down all over it to keep it compact - I guess it covered
an area 7 metres by 4, and was high enough that I had to pull myself up onto
it. Then I bought a shredder. I get bothered by humming fluorescent lights,
and I flee into the house when the neighbour's lawn service comes once a
week, so using the shredder was stressful for me.
I then discovered that my municipality will accept garden waste including
small branches. We are allowed to take one pickup load per day, and now
all my branches and blackberry vines go there for composting. I jump up
and down on the branches, pile on more, jump again, etc. I take a load
almost every day during the summer, and less often the rest of the year.
Now I have my old branch pile area planted with hellebore seedlings.
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I used to pile all my branches on a big pile and would climb up on top
and jump up and down all over it to keep it compact.
I wish I was a good artist - there is a great image in my mind of you in an enthusiastic dance atop your massive pile of sticks. :D
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John
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John,
Dancing on top of the compost heap is one of the essential skills of gardening!
Paddy
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I have so much to learn!....
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7 metres by 4 metres would be more than half the area of my flower beds. ???
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Hello, I'm new to the forum but thought I'd post a few photos I took today. I hope they are correctly named! I've only been collecting for 4 years but have managed to get a reasonable selection together.
Galanthus Lapwing.
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Sorry that of course is Primrose Warburg! This is Lapwing.
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And South Hayes just coming into flower. I was extremely lucky to get this 2 years ago when my daughter was born!
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Very nice pictures, Jane. You are getting a better depth of field than I seem to manage. Please post some more.
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and a good mark on your South Hayes, mine is just poking it's nose through the ground! Welcome to madness corner Jane!
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A warm welcome to you Jane! I take it you are somewhere in England?
How nice to have a lovely flower as a treat for the birth of your daughter!
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Hello all, thank you for the nice welcome. I'm based in Cheshire and started my garden from scratch about 6 years ago. My soil is very poor in areas and there is sandstone sometimes within cm's of the surface, so bone dry in the summer and just the right amount of water in the winter. I think thats why my snowdrops are doning so well.
Maggie I have a no bunch of flower rule in the house. For the cost of a bunch of flowers I can get some really nice plants that will last alot longer.
Heres Trumps who has only just flowered for the first time, Spindlestone Surprise and Ding Dong.
They seem to be coming out at very strange times this year. My autumn flowering Snowdrops are only just coming up, and theres no sign of John Gray.
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I have a no bunch of flower rule in the house. For the cost of a bunch of flowers I can get some really nice plants that will last alot longer.
Very sensible, can't argue with that as a rule...... BUT, I must say that I have personally been greatly touched by the arrival of cut flowers through the post lately and was really moved by the sentiment, sent from afar, mind you, I've had plants recently that way ,too a sa surprise...... what a treat! 8)
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Wow Jane! Talk about making an entrance! :o
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Great to have you with us on the forum, Jane and I must echo Anthony's sentiments - this has been a particularly impressive entrance. Although you have been collecting snowdrops for only four years you have certainly obtained some of the very good cultivars. Lovely plants.
Looking forward to further postings.
Paddy
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I have'nt posted any pictures in this thread previously and I do so purely to illustrate my mulching regime which is annually and always with COMPOSTED BARK.(Sorry about the capitals)I do'nt think it makes any difference as to when the mulch is applied having applied it at all stages of growth over the years.
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A nice seedling flowering in the garden today. One I raised about 3 years ago and chipped to make a small clump. A plicatus X gracilis cross. I'll take another pic when the flowers are more open and the nice mark showing. But nice smooth white outers.
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And another seedling (also plicatus X gracilis). Not a great pic. I'll pick some flowers to take photos indoors. Too busy pollinating all day in the sun.
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And another (again plicatus X gracilis). All these flowers just started to open today so are not fully developed. The flowers should expand and the outers lengthen and lift up more as the flowers age. All inherit the very bright white, thick petals and smooth petal texture from gracilis.
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Bertram Anderson is one that doesn't usually flop over in the mud, despite the wind, rain, snow and low light levels. It has a good strong flower stem. One of the few snowdrops in my garden that still looks good in this poor weather.
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John you are quite right the composted bark sets them off a treat.
I particularly like you last plicatus X gracilis cross Martin, and don't these crosses with the thick outers look beautifully clean.
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Is your cross really that creamy Martin?
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Is your cross really that creamy Martin?
I'll have a look tomorrow, Anthony, but I think it's just the evening light making it look a little cream tinted.
Here's one of my best older seedlings from a few years ago. I must chip it to bulk it up. Trouble is when I chip a seedling I don't see it flower for 3 years!
I need to do loads of chipping this year. Lots that need revitalising and seedlings that need to be bulked up.
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Yes Martin, that is nice. Don't have anything with such an intense green inner as that. Is it worthy of a name? When you chip it put my name on one. :)
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Yes Martin, that is nice. Don't have anything with such an intense green inner as that. Is it worthy of a name? When you chip it put my name on one. :)
Will do. I think it might be worthy of a name at some point.
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Last one looks particular nice. Reminds me of one I have called "Merlin', but I'd have to check pics to see whether the outer petals are as thick and broad.
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Last one looks particular nice. Reminds me of one I have called "Merlin', but I'd have to check pics to see whether the outer petals are as thick and broad.
Not as tall as Merlin. A short little cutie.
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Excited today because the first snowdrop package is here. It arrived yesterday but no-one here to receive it so it's sitting at the local sorting office
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Well that was a let down. I was expecting a parcel from the Snowdrop Company because my cheque was cashed last week.
It was some some nivalis 'Lady Elphinstone' from Westcountry Nurseries on Ebay instead. They claim their snowdrops are "pot grown". They are sitting in pots of dry peat with very little root growth. Avoid the Donkey Daisy
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Avoid the Donkey Daisy
Isn't it a bit early for Ron Mackenzie snowdrops (and John Morley) to be arriving? Unless Ron's taking advantage of the recent good weather (and early season) to start lifting.
"Avoid the Donkey Daisy" ???? I'm intrigued. Can you elucidate?
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Yes. Westcountry Nurseries use the name Donkey Daisy on Ebay. Later today or tomorrow I'll post a photo of the pot contents
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Galanthus-Lady-Elphinstone_W0QQitemZ280192322385QQihZ018QQcategoryZ42207QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Galanthus-Lady-Elphinstone_W0QQitemZ280192322385QQihZ018QQcategoryZ42207QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem)
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£5.50 for Lady E! :o
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Can you beat it? Or are you saying it's cheap?
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Expensive. I would have said £3.
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What's your source because I would buy some more
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The best source of all:
http://www.dryad-home.co.uk/Bulb%20list.htm
3,50 / bulb
Best quality bulbs from a beautiful lady ;)
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What's your source because I would buy some more
Here's another source. Another forum member's nursery - I bought Lady Elphinstone last year £3.50 each, the first time I have used this nursery - very very pleased, excellent value, excellent plants. Thanks to Susan Band at Pitcairn.
http://shop.pitcairnalpines.co.uk/galanthus-lady-eliphinstone-899-p.asp
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I have to confirm Diane's assessment of this nursery - Susan Band's Pitcairn Nursery, an excellent source of good quality plants.
Paddy
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I have to confirm Diane's assessment of this nursery - Susan Band's Pitcairn Nursery, an excellent source of good quality plants.
Paddy
And of course, not to decry Anne's Dryad nursery - just untried ... so far
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Did you not get some at Dunblane last year Mark? Ian Christie would have had some.
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I concur, in the case of both Nurseries, great plants and bulbs, and a couple of 'smashers' ;)
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I see Bob Brown at CGF has some nice snowies including 'Desdemona', 'Hippolyta', 'Merlin' and 'Pusey Green Tip' @ £5.50/pot and angustifolius @ £4.50/pot.
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Stag infected Amaryllid to illustrate this fungal affliction ( edit M )
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Stag infected Amaryllis
Sorry Mark, don't know my Amarylli. Can you explain what is wrong with the bulb (apart from looking a bit nibbled)?
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Alan it's Stagonospora the major fungal threat to our beloved little white flowers
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Let's start by calling a spade a spade....
It's Hippeastrum.
(which doesn't belong in a thread on Galanthus).
What's wrong is the reddish streaking that is visible in the photo (and on some of my hippeastrum at the moment). It's infected with a fungal disease.
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Hippeastrum belongs to the Amaryllidaceae, as does Galanthus, so showing a Stagnospora infected bulb is very relevant to this thread. How would you treat it Mark?
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Point taken...it just seemed to appear out of nowhere...
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I see what you mean. Perhaps a quote might have linked it to the original question?
.... it does now! edit M
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No matter....
Like yourself, I'm interested in hearing how people are handling the problem...
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The sun was out briefly so I grabbed this general shot of some snowdrops with some cyclamen coum in the background
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Sun, Snowdrops, Cyclamen coum ? Can you all see me turning green with envy here? Yes, we had a bright enough day, until about half an hour ago, the wind is making it colder than it need be but still very little movement in garden growth.
Enjoy it while you can, Rob!
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My snowdrops are being blown horizontal by the gale across our adjoining airfield ( that is to say, it's not my airfield) . Their petals are streaming in the wind like Piglet's ears.
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I said, and dont know where on the bulbs forum, that today I would post a photo of Stag.
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How would I treat it? It's now in the bin. It takes banned fungicides to treat it. Martin listed them earlier this week.
The postings are fast and furious and laziness makes me unwilling to look for a quote. Sorry boys and girls
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Their petals are streaming in the wind like Piglet's ears.
Gloucester old spot?
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Search for "stagonospora" on new Forum results:
Bulbs / Ian Young's Bulb Log - Feedback Forum / Re: Bulb Log 17-01-07 on: January 30, 2007, 08:57:04 PM
Cultivation / Cultivation Problems / Re: Narcissus leaf problems on: December 17, 2006, 11:19:33 PM
Bulbs / Bulbs General / Re: Narcissus 2006 on: December 21, 2006, 05:50:50 PM
Bulbs / Galanthus / Re: Galanthus mid February to March 2007 on: February 20, 2007, 08:11:40 PM
Bulbs / Bulbs General / Re: Narcissus March 2007 on: March 08, 2007, 09:40:29 PM
Bulbs / Galanthus / Re: Galanthus January 2008 on: Today at 01:51:36 PM
there, that'll keep you going for a while!
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And stagonospora references in the old Forum:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/discus/messages/283/5457.html#POST3670 Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 11:16 pm, shows a pc of a a Galanthus affected by the fungus.
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Here are a couple of sister seedlings of the last one I posted (all plicatus X gracilis) and in a similar vein. The first is another good one I'm going to chip and bulk up. The second isn't so good, but fertile so I'm continuing to breed with it and may chip it anyway to see if it improves in different positions (it's under a rhodo right now).
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And this is a funny elwesii seedling from 'Kite', which I privately call The Pelican because when the flower's closed up tight in bud it's so long and hangs at such an angle, with its spathe curled above like a head that it somehow makes me thing of a pelican's beak.
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I'll try to get a picture of that one when it is closed tight in colder weather, so you can see what I mean about the pelican beak.
Meanwhile, plicatus 'Henham No. 1 which is a reliable plant with me in a well-drained spot, usually very early, a nice flower, and one I'm using for breeding.
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Your G. plicatus X gracilis seedlings seem to have very long pedicels ? ??? Is that usual?
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Gonnae no dae that Martin. ::) I'm turning more and more green by the day! I think it is white fever and while I know there is no cure for this, I feel that the only way I can cure the symptoms is by increasing my uptake of snowdrop varieties.
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of course Anthony. Just sell off your insects
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That wouldn't buy one!
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looking down Joe's list the following are excellent and distinctive
Alison Hilary £10
Edinburgh Ketton £15
elwesii Comet £10
elwesii ex Broadleigh £6 - flowers pre Christmas
elwesii Peter Gatehouse £15 - pre Christmas
Faringdon Double £10 - pre Christmas
gracilis £6
Hill Poe £8 - by far the best double ever!
nivalis Magnet £5
plicatus Wendy's Gold £15
St Annes £10
William Thomson £6
woronowii £3
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Mark, just noticed the change in your signature line. Are you on an 'earner' from Nikon and Canon? ;D
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Your G. plicatus X gracilis seedlings seem to have very long pedicels ? ??? Is that usual?
Maggi, plicatus as a parent can produce quite long pedicels in seedlings. It's not an uncommon trait of plicatus. It's nice if the pedicel arches elegantly, but sometimes the pedicel sticks out at odd angles and doesn't hold the flower very elegantly, as is happening in the bottom of those two pics I posted together - one of the reasons it's not such a good plant. But still useful for further breeding.
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David I wish! Just noticed a spelling mistake too
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Martin,
Love the 'Pelican', great length in the petal and held to show off the trait.
Paddy
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Here's a nice wee list: http://www.plantsforshade.co.uk/acatalog/Galanthus.html
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I've just realized why so many of my snowdrops (and crocus) aren't flowering this year or have tiny flowers and/or scrawny leaves and look like they've really gone back from flowering size bulbs to non-F.S. since last season - the hot spring in 2007!
I was thinking I really need to feed my bulbs 'cos they're all going back to nothing. But then I remembered all the snowdrop leaves wilting and shrivelling up in the heat last spring. Instead of yellowing and slowly dying back, they all just shrivelled up at least a month early, maybe more.
I recall snowdrops still with green seed pods swelling and ripening but no leaves at all. That can't have been good for them. And it was a record seed set too, after the mild winter, so lots of bulbs with no leaves putting all their enegy into making and ripening seeds.
It's a relief to realise there's a reason for it, even if - combined with the effects of the awful weather - it means not much worth seeing this year. Still means I have to feed though. In fact I'm going to pour liquid feed into the clumps, and foliar feed.
I intend watering too if it gets dry this spring. I'm not risking another shortened season's growth. Wierd world! I had to water the reginae-olgae in the autumn to get them to come up and flower, and now I'm planning to water the snowdrops in the spring if I have to. Who used to water snowdrops?!
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Meant to say, that's another drawback to gardening on a steep south-facing hillside, especially during climate change - heat or drought at the wrong time and my patch turns into a parched desert (the other big drawback being I'm wide open to the constant stream of winter storms we've been getting from the south-west.
Well, at least I'm well-drained - if I wasn't, the stagonophora from the wet summer would probably have been even worse!
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Here is one of my Desert Island snowdrops Magnet - yes I know it's common but it is very elegant and easy. Also one of Ian Christies the lovely Yvonne
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Stupid request I know, but if anyone has seed from 'Yvonne' at some point I would love some. My wife is Yvonne and I realise I will not be able to get the cultivar here in Aus, so the nearest I can get is to have plants "ex Yvonne" growing on. I must admit that where I find something with a cultivar called 'Yvonne' I do try to buy it, although I have only come across one or two (Freesia springs to mind but I can't remember the second thing I found).
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Paul if it sets seed they are yours
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Just a couple of snowdrops newly out today, Angelique is just about my biggest clump of specials! Difficult to photograph in the wind, the other is Sandersii group (bought as lutescens). Hope everyone enjoyed the trip to Colesbourne, I'm looking forward to lots of photos ;D
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A couple more The Linns I had as a swap rather nice in a quiet sort of way and Lady Beatrice Stanley doing quite nicely if a little muddy
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Now can you experts identify these for me. I am sure both have a little plicatus in their blood the second more that the first. They are plants which I had long ago and labels lost. Maybe well known hybrids. I have given a close up of the flowers to help. See if you throw any light.
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Brian 'The Linns' isnt a double
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Galanthus G71 sold for £35 on Ebay an hour ago. Every day I'm blown away by stoopidity but I should did my clump and cash in
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Mark what makes you think The Linns I showed was a double?
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I have been growing reginae olgae in my garden for about 8 or 9 years now. Slugs or snails (I presume) will eat the flower buds as they emerge but by the time the leaves come through the bugs seem to have gone into winter hibernation and lost their appetite. Twice, however, I have lost whole clumps of this snowdrop from one year to the next with no trace of the bulbs to be found.
I have some close to the south-west facing wall of my house under a wisteria which bulked-up very well initially but seems to have come to a halt as the wisteria has grown and their locale has probably got drier. Further along the same wall I have some more under a climbing hydragea that are doing well. I also have some in a more shaded location and these did badly this year with few flowers and the leaves emerging late, small and splayed as if the bulbs had sunk an inch or two and were struggling to emerge.
I guess the most important lesson is that these bulbs don't seem to mind a location that is warmer and drier than is said to suit a typical snowdrop. But then I had some G. plicatus right next to them that also did well in this warmer drier location.
By the way, I am also expecting to receive the varieties of reginae-olgae you mentioned shortly. I guess we are swapping with the same person.
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Ian,
Thanks for the seed offer. Fingers crossed. I would have thought that your "The Linns" was a double as well from your picture. There look to be extra petals peaking out from the edge of the inner petals, particularly the second flower from the right, half way down the picture. You can just see a smaller petal poking out to the left of the main inner petal. So it isn't a double?
Brian,
Love those fangs on 'Angelique' Very nice markings.
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I'm finally losing it! Lyn changes to Yvonne and two posts vanish. ??? Braved a howling gale this evening to check what has surved the weather, builders, slugs (which ain't bugs ::)), unidentified effing objects etc. Castle Green coming through and Colossus is out. The Linns (nothing like that above and from Evelyn herself) is also out but Hill Poe and Brian Spence are still in tight bud.
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Ian the big give away is the lack of an ovary
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Be calm, Anthony, have some chocolate. Ian edited the mistaken name and I thought leaving the comments would be confusing to others so I took them out...... ::) I was overcome with some uncharacteristic housework urge to be tidy :P
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Paul I see what you mean but it is definitely only a single. Its description in the snowdrop bible says it is dumpy so that may explain this feature
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Mark I see what you mean but it is still nly single ???
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... slugs .. ain't bugs ::)
I guess you're right And they're not even creepy crawlies, since they neither creep nor crawl. I was struggling to find a common name to encompass slugs and snails and other insects that might be liable to take a bite out of my bulbs. Perhaps there isn't one?
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I was struggling to find a common name to encompass slugs and snails and other insects that might be liable to take a bite out of my bulbs. Perhaps there isn't one?
I am sure Maggi will come up with a suitable collective noun!....
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For the benefit of Rob (Robsorchids) who complained a while back that his Mrs Thompson was too normal, here is a picture of the one I have (with, unfortunately, my signature bits of dirt and grit from too much recent rain). It has five outer petals, although the fifth one round the back is barely visible in the photo. You can see from the crease in the ovary that it is really two flowers fused together.
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Ian the front one almost has an ovary. Do you have a cat digging in the garden? I see soil thrown over the emerging leaves
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Mark I do have a cat but the dressing is compost (from the heap) recently spread. The whole garden gets its covering about this time.
I will have a closer look today re the ovaries strange inteesting hadn't noticed this before
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I'm beginning to despair. :'( Last night I saw a bulb of 'Grumpy' go for over £20 on ebay. :( I need to bulk up my specials so I have some worthy ones to exchange.
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I have an idea Anthony - cancel the extension and no exotic holidays in 2008 or do what I'm doing. I'm saving £2 coins in a big jar.
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Doesn't work like that Mark. :(
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Holidays or saving £2 coins
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My first Gelanthus this year - usually soon. I think it is nivalis.
Then came the storm with 165km/h and heavy rain.
Hans
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not nivalis but a nice pale elwesii. Was it under leaves?
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Thank you Mark for the correct name. No, they were not under leaves, they look pale every year (but only this G. elwesii).
Hans
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Hi Rob
sorry to break the news, it is virus. Many stocks of Augustus are known to have it.
John
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Hello All,
Well, what a great weekend it has been weather wise - and also for seeing snowdrops. I wrote earlier about the fantastic day that we had yesterday at Colesbourne. And now, after another most enjoyable day of sunshine I can post some photographs of a rather nice private collection we have visited.
Little Dorrit
[attachthumb = 1]
Wendys Gold
[attachthumb = 2]
Egret
[attachthumb = 3]
Octopussy
[attachthumb = 4]
Fuzz
[attachthumb = 5]
Trymlet group
[attachthumb = 6]
cheers
John
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Glad you liked the pics Rob. It was a great collection - maybe in 15 years time I may have one as good!
Some more pictures:
Deer Slot
[attachthumb = 1]
Angelique
[attachthumb = 2]
Angelsea Abbey selection (split every year to sort just the proc ones)
[attachthumb = 3]
Not the best picture in the world - but a great 'drop 'David Baker'
[attachthumb = 4]
A trym seedling (other parent unknown)
[attachthumb = 5]
A couple of shots of Ballerina
[attachthumb = 6] [attachthumb = 7]
A couple of shots of a tall one called 'sky rocket'
[attachthumb = 8] [attachthumb = 9]
and lastly - I thought was Mandarin with its a rather nice ovary colour - but the inner mark seems too large - any better suggestions?
[attachthumb = 10]
regards
John
Edit:
The last pic looks t me like it could be Tubby Merlin. Mandarin is an elwesii, and the pic shows what look like nivalis X plicatus leaves. The ovary shape and colour are like Tubby Merlin and the inner mark, what you can see of it, a solid green, could be right for Tubby Merlin too. I know they have a lot of Tubby Merlin at Colesbourne. Was it quite short?
yes - it was quite short.
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A very nice Deer Slot John and I see what you mean about Egret, there was I thinking it was one of your spikeys!
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Hi Brian
Deer Slot... - each time I have seen a large clump, I would say only 30% had the perfect 'slot' - all the others just has a joined blob. Very pretty when it does its thing.
John
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Great pictures John, you take a good 'un.
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Augustus is well known for being virused. I got some last year off Ebay. I was the only bidder and got them cheap. They were extremely virused, got my money back and this year they are very normal looking
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Here are pictures (sorry, not the best quality) of two unnamed elwesiis I found in a park:
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That has a lovely pinch
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One of the green tipped ones produces three scapes.
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As promised here are a couple of pictures from yesterday's visit to Colesbourne and a couple from my own collection. Unfortunately by the time I got into the garden the snowdrops were closing up but there was still just enough visible to make it worthwhile.
I hope that you enjoy them. John Long and Rosemary Burnham are from Colesbourne. Ivy Cottage Corporal, Ivy Cottage Green Tips and Kite are from my own garden.
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Today must have been a superb day for those visiting Colesbourne - the weather here, a few miles from Colesbourne was almost summer-like, warm with brilliant sunshine. But I've been stuck indoors and in the car all weekend ferrying teenage boys to and from birthday party stuff and catering for visiting relatives, so no time even to get into my own garden, where crocus and snowdrops were wide open for the first time this winter! :-[
John, that elwesii 'Skyrocket' is very impressive. Just how tall was it? And was it at Colesbourne?
The last pic looks t me like it could be Tubby Merlin. Mandarin is an elwesii, and the pic shows what look like nivalis X plicatus leaves. The ovary shape and colour are like Tubby Merlin and the inner mark, what you can see of it, a solid green, could be right for Tubby Merlin too. I know they have a lot of Tubby Merlin at Colesbourne. Was it quite short?
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They arent cured Rob just not as bad as I would expect. 'Augustus' has distinctive leaves
Here's a photo with a few important people in shot and another behind the camera
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Anyone selling Rosemary Burnham this year? It's a cracker! 8)
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Anthony they were about on lists earlier this month but by now they will be gone. I've had it 3 times now and havent managed to keep it alive.
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Which list? Not ones I've seen.
I've had it 3 times now and havent managed to keep it alive.
Perhaps it is better adapted to British Columbia?
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Here's a photo with a few important people in shot and another behind the camera
Is that all we're allowed to know, Mark?
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Here's a photo with a few important people in shot and another behind the camera
Seriously, Mark, I find your post genuinely puzzling. It's apparently a photo from your visit to Colesbourne but you don't say so, and I feel you're trying to imply something but I'm not sure exactly what. I'd like to understand what you're getting at.
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Ooo, a guessing game.
I don't think it is Colesbourne - I don't recognise the building (and I had a good nose around). The building almost looks Irish (painted pink makes me think that) - but then the china cups and saucers in the garden seems a rather English pastime (it would be strong mugs (or cans...) in my garden!). The bloke and lady on the far right look familiar - I think they may have been at Colesbourne on Saturday. I guess Dr MacKenzie's first snowdrop lunch?
John
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I'd assumed it was Mark's place. He was talking about having a Snowdrop open day, and I'd assumed it was at his place? I could be wrong of course (happens far too often!!).
Some great pics posted in the last day or so..... I SO want 'Trym'/'Trymlet'/Trym seedlings, so please if anyone sets seed on their 'Trym' and doesn't want it please keep me in mind. 'Trym' is one of my holy grail type plants, but unfortuantely can only try for a lookalike from seed. I wish 'Rosemary Burnham' was out as it is so distinctive. Love the form of 'Little Dorrit' and 'Octopussy', and that almost recurved one (Egret) is quite remarkable. I know, I'm a hopeless snowie addict!! ::)
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OK OK OK in the photo are Veronica Cross, Alan Lesley, Michael Meyers, new forum member Carole and Joe Sharman. I'm behind the camera
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Are you over here Mark? Or is this from a previous year? I thought you had delayed your trip until next week.
John
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oops I forgot Catherine Erskine
The photo is from 2003, I think, I found it last night while looking for a snowdrop someone emailed me.
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John, I didn't think it looked like the Elwes house either but thought maybe somewhere nearby. And I also recognised one or two of the faces, though not all.
Mark, I got that you were the other 'important person' behind the camera. I just didn't get the reason for posting the pic or why you posted it in the way that you you did. I thought perhaps you were trying to tell us something.
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House wouldn't have had a rendered elevation surely if it had been near to Colesbourne, not with all that Cotswold stone about!
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House wouldn't have had a rendered elevation surely if it had been near to Colesbourne, not with all that Cotswold stone about!
Render's quite popular around the Cotswolds, even over Cotswold stone walls.
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Didn't recognise Michael Myers without his long nails and mask and wouldn't know anyone else from Adam (or Eve). ::)
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Didn't recognise .... without ... ::)
I suspect if I were that person, that joke would be wearing a bit thin by now!
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I suspect if I were that person, that joke would be wearing a bit thin by now!
Perhaps if the pic had been accompanied by names I wouldn't have felt the urge. It is nice to put faces to names but I for one don't know most of these people so wouldn't recognise them if they turned up in my soup!
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looks like I'm the bad boy again! I dont mind. When I have time I'll tell you who is who
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I have to admit it is me in the yellow boots and the hat. How I hate having my photo taken. I guess I may see some of you at Glen Chantry and the Gala, still in the yellow boots if it is wet underfoot.
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Here is a little help for Mark. There is a German at the picture. The fifth from right is Joerg Lebsa, one of our best Galanthophile.
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looks like I'm the bad boy again! I dont mind. When I have time I'll tell you who is who
Not bad, Mark, just annoying sometimes (at least to me). Perhaps you should mind. I would.
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Welcome to the Forum Hagen.
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And another one of the best German-Galanthophile is on the SRGC-forum now!
Welcome Hagen!!!
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Nice to have you with us Hagen.
Looks like there was a redeeming feature in the photograph after all.
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Cool bonnet. 8)
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Thanks Hagan and welcome. I just couldnt remember his name.
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Hello, Hagen, good to have you here! Nice too, to be able to put faces to Carole and to Joerg..
so, Mark we shall require reposting of pic complete with left to right names of those you know.... fat lot of use without that!
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yeah bo'
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Alan_b :I was struggling to find a common name to encompass slugs and snails and other insects that might be liable to take a bite out of my bulbs. Perhaps there isn't one?
John:I am sure Maggi will come up with a suitable collective noun!....
Sorry for the delay... been somewhat busy here... I haven't had time to come uop wtith something that applies really neatly to the assorted bugs, slugs etc, so, to be going on with, some terms for ANYTHING that eats our bulbs (or other plants!)..... one : a nuisance of munchers
two: a pestilence of plant picnickers... ;)
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A malevolence of molluscs Maggi!
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That's a good one, Anthony, 8) 8) 8)
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Hello Hagen,
Welcome!
It is a pleasure to have you join the forum and I look forward to your contributions.
Paddy
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Hello Hagen,
Welcomefrom me too its a pleasure to have you join the forum. I also look forward to your contributions.
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Dont underestamate yourself, and try the timerfunction next time Mark. So that you dont have to stay behind the camera and get among those important and famous people.
You are also famous and important, be that badboy you wannabe, so do I.
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Welcome Hagen, we hope to see soon some of your Galanthuses.
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I don't think Mark will misunderestimated himself. ;)
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You know its just a bit teasing Anthony, what i would like to see is some photos from Mark between the snowdrops.
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OK, I'm off for three days this weekend, next weekend and the last weekend of Feb and I'll do my best to get photos of me.
Weather permitting I'm off to Robin Hall's this weekend. I spoke to his wife last night and she tells me the snowdrops are looking good. He doesnt have any named, at least last time I was there, so you will have to make do with general photos
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Galanthus 'Robin Hall', 'Cicely Hall' his mother now deceased, 'Kenneth Hall' his father, ex Robin Hall any amount of snowdrop released by him way back.
He recently contacted John Morley and insisted he withdraw 'Cicely' from sale
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Is 12,000 views a record? No jokes please LOL
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and now for the photo again so 6 people looked before I added the names - duh!!
1. Richard Hobbs
2. Veronica Cross
3. Gisela Schmiemann
4. Alan Lesley
4. Carole Smith
5. Michael Myers girlfriend now married with child
6. Joerg Lebsa
7. Michael Myers - cant remember the name of his business
8. Catherine Erskine
9. Joe Sharman
10. Harman who helps Joe sell snowies
opps I've gone wrong!
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Is 12,000 views a record? No jokes please LOL
Well, no: no jokes, this is a serious matter.....I was thinking myself last night, looking at the viewing figures for this thread that it must be the highest Forum ranking.
Mind you, I also wondered if I ought to warn the Public Health Department about the white fever outbreak, in case the government want to consider a mass vaccination programme of protection for the rest of the population..... :-X
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Is 12,000 views a record? No jokes please LOL
I think we have cheated slightly in moving things and using one thread for Oct/Nov/Dec/Jan - let us see how the February thread fairs before calling Norris McWhirter...
Though I must admit that every new person I meet growing snowdrops, I tell about this forum.
Impressive numbers though.
John
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Thanks for your friendly welcome. How can I post pictures in?
Mark Nr.6 is Joerg Lebsa
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Photo two
1. Forbes Smith other half of Carole
2. Rosie 'Norfolk Blonde' Steele
3. Matt 'Matt Adores' Bishop
4. Richard Hobbs
5. Veronica Cross
6. Mark 'Cowhouse Green' Brown
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Thanks Hagen. I've amended it
Posting is very easy.
Click on additional options below the text box.
This opens and allows you to browse for your photos - less than 700 pixels wide suit the forum best-
and click post
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Re Robin Hall,
I have had occasion to speak to Robin on a number of occasions and also correspond with him on a few other occasions over the past few months and have found him, to be very helpful, pleasant. He makes a point to refuse to put a snowdrop into circulation without years of observing it in his own garden until he is sure that it will make a good garden plant. As an example, while G. 'Kenneth Hall' is one dear to his heart, named after his father, he does not consider it a suitable plant to let into general circulation and keeps it as one to be treasured by the family alone.
On the other hand, G. 'Cicely Hall' is an outstanding snowdrop, certainly contending with G. 'Hill Poe' as the best Irish snowdrop.
For many years Mrs. Hall gave snowdrops to friends who would visit the garden and these were known as the 'Primrose Hill Specials' and there are certainly snowdrops being distributed under this name, even such named as 'Primrose Hill Special No. 1', No. 2 etc. In fact this name was applied to every and any snowdrop which Mrs. Hall gave to friends and was never intended to distinguish any one snowdrop in particular. In fact, these were snowdrops which while good were not good enough for Mrs. Hall or Robin to name and distribute.
There are a number of snowdrops which originated in Primrose Hill and were named by either Mrs. Hall or by Robin, all good snowdrops.
Paddy
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I`ll do it Mark. Thank you
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Hagen it will be great to have you post pictures, see these pages for help;
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=41.0 this page has answers to lots of questions and explains about picture posting
and this is the official HELP page for posting : http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=help;page=post
Basic rule is keep each photo at about 700x 600 pixels , less than 300k size and only ten pix per post.
I think you should find all you need on those two pages, Hagen.... good luck!
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I`m on the way
G. Merlin
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excellent, Hagen but it would be better to reduce the pixel size of your photo to less than 700 wide by 600 high.... then there is little need for most viewers to have to scroll across and up an down to view your picture as a whole.
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I took some snowdrops to work today because I was the only one there
'Greenfinch' first
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We have already discussed elwesii 'Penelope Ann'
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plicatus byzantinus early flowering ex garden of David Bromley
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and lastly from me a nice elwesii that I have lost the label for
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Hi ,
here is now a pic from today from my garden :
Galanthus ikariae
.....not all know the true species ;D
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Lovely 'drops, Mark. Where was everyone else from work?
plicatus byzantinus early flowering ex garden of David Bromley
Look at the marking.. it seems like a "K" to me... that's a flower for Karl Kristensen(kalle-k.dk) to have!! ;)
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Good that you have a fine day, Hans... beautiful G. ikariae, beautiful!
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Something only in white
G. Tatiana
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a little bit more white
G. SNOW WHITE`S GNOME
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These are lovely snowdrops... very elegant indeed. I don't believe we have seen these varieities before.
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Today these are stranded by rain
Galanthus ' Three Ships'
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Hagen, 'Tatiana' looks lovely
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Something only in white
G. Tatiana
Beautiful! :)
John
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Great pics Mark, Hans and Hagen! Greenfinch and Tatiana are stunners.
Got a bit of sun here this morning before it clouded over again, so managed to snap a few of my seedlings with wider open flowers:
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And one more that I missed...
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Are all those hybrids or selections?
Can I promote hagen's fantastic web site especially his galleries - go and enjoy. Click on the home page photo to get in
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Most are hybrids, Mark, all involving plicatus and most being plicatus X gracilis. The long-outer elwesii is a pure elwesii seedling selection from 'Kite'.
Two more; not my own seedlings but two really good (and quite similar) ones raised by Colin Mason - 'Fieldgate Superb' and 'Fieldgate Fugue':
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Martin, I hope some of your fantastic seedlings aren`t only numbers. A good kind must have a name, an animation for fantasy. Only you know the best and can compare!!!
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Ah I do like 'Three Ships'. Wish it were here in Aus, but as far as I can find out it isn't. Bummer!!
I would have been really surprised at the "all white" versions of snowies if I hadn't been given a bulb of one a few weeks ago. Until then I didn't even realise that there WERE all white versions other than the poculiformis types I see pics of. I now await the flowering of 'Sibbertoft White' in years to come, so that I can see the all whites "in the flesh". Wonderful pics everyone. Martin, your seedlings are very nice. You've obviously got some nice parents there to be producing such lovely seedlings. At the rate you're going you may be able to start selling the seeds, just on the off chance that people might get such nice seedlings in their own gardens. Very nice!!
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Great to see such lovely photos on a miserable day. The white ones are lovely, especially when they look pristine. All in all some really nice snowdrop pictures today, thank you.
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Thanks Hagen. I'm sure I'll be naming some eventually, but only the very best - and I have hundreds of seedlings growing on, still to flower, to select from so it isn't going to be easy. There are other seedlings already selected but which have been chipped to make them into clumps quickly, so I'll be showing more as time goes on. Right now, a lot are in the chipping pipeline.
Paul, if I succeed in raising some tetraploids (as I've mentioned in the snowdrop breeding thread, that's one of my main aims) then it should be much easier to produce lots of snowdrop seed which will also be tetraploid or triploid and produce good big strong snowdrops. As well as providing much more and better material for cultivar selection, that will also introduce the possibility of producing some fairly true-breeding strains of snowdrops - i.e. good big cultivar-like snowdrops that can be raised from readily available seed. Don't hold your breath, though. It may be a long haul!
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My goodness, you blink and three pages pop up. :o Fantastic. 8) I'm with Martin. Tatiana and Greenfinch are stunning. I see the latter is on the bid for list at North Green. I wish they wouldn't do that. At least with ebay you can see the price but this closed bids. It has been said before, but if there are five snowdrops and the highest bid is £100 and the 5th bid is £30 does everyone pay £30 or does some poor sucker pay £100 and the rest whatever they bid?
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yep you pays for what bid. So if three are for auction and you bid £100 you pay that even if the next one down is £20. It's the chance you take. I hate it too as it's aimed at those with fat wallets
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Here is a sad story prompted by Hagen's beautiful pictures of all-white snowdrop:
Last year I found this beautifull all-white snowdrop. Even the insides of the inner petals were largely white.
This year it has totally normal green markings :'( !
I don't know if the loss of colour was a one-off or something that happens from time to time. What could have caused it? Mark reckons that stress can cause green marks to appear, so maybe this plant had one year of total relaxation?
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You pay what you bid, Anthony. And I don't like it either. As I've said before, if I was a professional grower I'd take those five bulbs and chip them instead of selling them, until I had more like enough to meet the demand at a reasonable price. That's how you build a successful long-term business and make more money in the long run and also (more importantly to my mind) avoid disappointing the majority of your customers. But I think there's also an element of maintaining the mystique and exclusivity going on.
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post894 now has the missing names added - thanks Carole
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Alan I think it was John Grimshaw who told be green tips are a sign of stress. It can be seen frequently on garden centre snowdrops
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So, are green tips ALWAYS a sign of stress, or only sometimes? This would mean that snowies such as Pusey Green Tips were in a constant state of anxiety, then, since this is pretty constant feature, isn't it? Poor little things, obviously don't know if they're coming or going :P
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Hi ,
here is now a pic from today from my garden :
Galanthus ikariae
.....not all know the true species ;D
There is no sign of my ikariae clump this year, but then last year was a bad one for bulb fly. :'(
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only when they dont come back the second year! I've been told that a green tipped snowdrop should be grown for a couple of years before getting excited.
I found a gorgeous tiny nivalis two years ago. Last year although still tiny it had lost all the extra green
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Anthony do have have Narcissus fly problems? For how long?
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Anthony do have have Narcissus fly problems? For how long?
They are later in appearing than yours Mark but continue into June.
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Here's nivalis 'Mini Me' not with green tips as I remembered but with extra green shading inside. For comparison in the second photo my thumb nail is 1.5cm left to right. Fingers crossed for this year
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Anthony,
For your information, G. ikariae is just peeping above ground here at the moment.
Paddy
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For your information, G. ikariae is just peeping above ground here at the moment.
I've half a mind to move to Ireland :-\
not with green tips as I remembered but with extra green shading inside
The one with green shading has a really heart shaped lower mark- very neat- looks completely different in the second shot without shading - lower mark has changed shape too. These things just do as they please, don't they?
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Anthony,
For your information, G. ikariae is just peeping above ground here at the moment.
Paddy
I'll keep my fingers crossed. :)
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Anthony, I have lots of snowdrops failing to appear above ground this year, including whole clumps. It can't just be narcissus fly. I reckon it's down the wet summer. Don't know about you up there but down here the soil was saturated for much of the summer, after the bulbs died down early in the parched hot spring, so were probably already weakened - the exact opposite of what they like; a nice wet spring and a dry summer rest.
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Martin, I hope some of your fantastic seedlings aren`t only numbers. A good kind must have a name, an animation for fantasy. Only you know the best and can compare!!!
I would be interested in a thread where some seedlings are judged online,
and perhaps compared to a named one that is similar. For instance, a group
of long outers, or green tips, or yellow ovaries. This would be an exercise to
follow on from the bloom season as it would require some quiet time and it's
rather frenzied at the moment.
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Mark, here`s a sibling of MINI ME. It`s GRÜNER WINZLING. I have it since 3 years and it increases slowly. Have a look to the other leaves on the picture
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Sorry, here are the leaves
GRÜNER WINZLING.
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1. Richard Hobbs
2. Veronica Cross
3. Gisela Schmiemann
4. Alan Lesley
4. Carole Smith
5. Michael Myers girlfriend now married with child
6. Joerg Lebsa
7. Michael Myers - cant remember the name of his business
8. Catherine Erskine
9. Joe Sharman
10. Harman who helps Joe sell snowies
Is that really Joe Sharmon? I am so surprised at how young he is. I was expecting someone so much older for some reason. I think he was at Colesbourne on Saturday and I would never have guessed it was Joe Sharmon.
John
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Hagen little snowdrops are cute and well suited for troughs
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Yes, those two would certainly look very well in a trough, little dotes.
Paddy
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Mark, no pics from your Colesbourne trip?
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Here are pics of a nameless hybrid ( I suppose plicatus x elwesii )
I have received this plants before some years from a friend -they multiplicate it very well
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Very nice Hans.
Colesbourne photos later
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I would name it Galanthus 'Hans' as it seems to have your sunglasses and moustache Hans. 8) Certainly very pretty.
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Sorry I was not on the picture of important people you will just have to continue guessing how good looking I am, but anyway here are a couple of mine in flower now
The first is plicatus ssp plicatus.The bulb on the right has produced two flower scapes this year.
The second one is puzzling in its shape,its an elwesii and I cannot decide whether to name it or bin it.
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Hi Hans, I would name it HANS GUCK IN DIE LUFT, because I can see two eyes looking into the sky. This name wouldn`t be too personal.
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Hi Anthony + Hagen ,
Thank you for those nice ideas .....but I can not name a plant who comes from other peoples ......
My idea would be : Felix .....after my cat
Anthony : thats no sunglasses .....I need glasses always
Hagen : it seems to exist different clones from "Tatijana" .....or they grow in different locations different :
my plants have a very small mark on the inner petals and some lines on the outer petals ....
I think our source is the same ....
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Tony I wouldnt bin your elwesii. Their variation is shape and amount of green is always good to have
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I like that drop Tony. Is it always that widely spread - or was it just a very warm day? I would definately keep growing it. Maybe call it SRGC number 1?....
regards
John
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Tony W's wide spread 'drop looks like a wind turbine to me! 'Turbine' might be quite catchy if the plant catches on!
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Hans, yes it`s so. My TATIANA differs also a little. Some times she has very little dots. I found my bulbs in a hand full of BOHEMIA WHITE. Now I have these few very fine cultivars separated.
My offer for HANS ....was fun. Sorry. But I like still to look G. noname in its eyes.
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Hagen! I was puzzled, I thought your photograph was very familiar, though I did not know your name.... now I realise that you must be the long lost brother of Mike Thornley of Glenarn Rhododendron Garden.... later I will try to find a photo of him to show you your twin! ;)
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Tony W's wide spread 'drop looks like a wind turbine to me! 'Turbine' might be quite catchy if the plant catches on!
Maggie
Perfect name!
(http://www.lowestoftcoastguard.co.uk/images/Turbine%201.jpg)
John
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Hope the snowie doesn't get quite so tall! :o
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Oh Maggy, I`m not seldom. I have a lot of twins
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John
I have no idea if it looked like this previously,or indeed if it has flowered before.
I only started looking at them when the stock market dropped and seeing what prices they sell for I thought it might be a useful addition to my pension.It does look like a small scale wind turbine but I expect when it dies down it will be lost amongst the rest in the pot for another year. It will have had its moment of glory.
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and I am glad we had the chance to share in its fleeting moment of glory....
;D
(but do keep an eye on it next year ;))
John
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mentioning turbines I hear the Scottish Nature has turned down plans to put a wind farm on Lewis
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And Maggi you must have a twinsister with the same name in germany, i found on a old forumsite about "der schneeglockchengarten", you were also there discussing about what kind of snowdrops one should grow. There are not that many Maggi's i think.
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And Maggi you must have a twinsister with the same name in germany, i found on a old forumsite about "der schneeglockchengarten", you were also there discussing about what kind of snowdrops one should grow. There are not that many Maggi's i think.
Gerard ,
I know this lady too - but her real name is not Margaret ....Maggi is only her forum name
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That explains a lot!
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mentioning turbines I hear the Scottish Nature has turned down plans to put a wind farm on Lewis
Not SNH Mark, the Scottish Executive.
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Hello Gerard, since two years I have a look at these drops. I think/hope they are constant
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Dear Galanthophiles,
can anybody help me with the identification of these beauties?
I got them several years ago from a friend and they do very well in my garden.
He told me, that they were collected from Caucasus and another friend said,that they
look like Galanhus artushenkoi.
Greetings
Rudi
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Very nice Hagen
Rudi I have only seen Galanthus artjuschenkoae once (what I was told was artjuschenkoae). This is the photo I was sent
To me your snowdrops look like elwesii elwesii
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Hi Hagen
I particularly like QUADRIGA_2007_klein_.jpg
regards
John
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Google shows this http://www.iatp.am/stamps/h278.jpg (http://www.iatp.am/stamps/h278.jpg)
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Dear Mark,
Thank you for the quick reply, I love snowdrops,but don't have much experience
with their names.
Greetings
Rudi
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Tony W's wide spread 'drop looks like a wind turbine to me! 'Turbine' might be quite catchy if the plant catches on!
I think so too. I like it. I don't mind wind turbines either and we can see 38 from the house on the Braes of Doune.
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Dear Galanthophiles,
can anybody help me with the identification of these beauties?
I got them several years ago from a friend and they do very well in my garden.
He told me, that they were collected from Caucasus and another friend said,that they
look like Galanhus artushenkoi.
Greetings
Rudi
Hi Rudi ,
Sorry -but your plants are not G.artjuschenkoae - I agree with Mark this could be G. elwesii
G. artjuschenkoae has a applanate vernation
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Very nice Hagen
Rudi I have only seen Galanthus artjuschenkoae once (what I was told was artjuschenkoae). This is the photo I was sent
To me your snowdrops look like elwesii elwesii
Mark - sorry but this picture is wrong .
Look to the vernation -it is volute .
I grow the true species and I will send a pic soon is possibly
the plant from your pic is may be G. transcaucasicus
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I'd love to see a pic too Hans.
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Rudi's snowies are very nice and fat - I like that.
Mark: Nice stamp, what is it meant to be.... sorry, I'll rephrase that: which snowdrop does this stamp represent?
Galanhus artushenkoi/ Galanthus artjuschenkoae: I have not heard this name, can you tell me about this plant, Hans?
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There are not that many Maggi's i think.
Gerard, Maggi is all over Germany... do you not know the soup? ::) ;)
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Maggi ,
to your question :
Gal .artjuschenkoae is a snowdrop descriptet from E. Gabrelian after the botanist Zinaida Artjuschenko in year 1999
In the snowdrop book of Bishop Grimsaw Davis is this plant wrong placed as synonym to Gal. transcaucasicus ....later travels of botanists have show that is is a own species .
This plants grows in Armenia on several places -sometimes in areas where also grow G. kemulariae and G. alpinus
It is easy to different from G. transcaucasicus :
G. artjuschenkoae has a applanate vernation
G. transcaucasicus has a volute vernation
The descriptions are difficould to read because they are partly in russian languae .
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Thank you, Hans. I suspected a Russian connection because of the name.
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Yes i do know the soup "Maggi", but i think its made in Holland.
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Which list? Not ones I've seen.Anthony they were about on lists earlier this month but by now they will be gone. I've had it 3 times now and havent managed to keep it alive.
Hi Mark
would it be possible to say which lists had Rosemary Burnham on? I thought I got sent just about all the lists available and I haven't seen Rosemary Burnham on any this year. Sounds like I need to get my name on some more mailings lists ready for next year. ;)
with many thanks
John
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I thought I saw it listed this year but must be mistaken
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I thought I saw it listed this year but must be mistaken
Was Rosemary Burnham perhaps on a limited distribution list?
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Well it definitely was not on Ron Mackenzie's list, Monksilver or John Morley (and I checked the for sale by tender section too). >:(
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Does anyone have experience of G. 'South Hayes' having 'normal' outer segments when disturbed? One I bought out of flower last year looks very ordinary.
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I would suggest no Anne?
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Anne 'South Hayes' is known to lose it's green stripe with too much twinscaling. I dont know if it will return. Is your source reliable?
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I would still not look 'ordinary' though, Mark?
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True. No photo Anne?
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Does anyone have experience of G. 'South Hayes' having 'normal' outer segments when disturbed? One I bought out of flower last year looks very ordinary.
Hi Anne
when you say 'normal' - are you refering to the shape of the petals - or the colour of the outer marking? I have read in various places that the green markings can be affected in some batches by chipping chipped bulbs (though if this has ever been proved I do not know), but I have not heard of them losing that wonderful outward curving flared shape.
As Mark says, a photo would make it easier for comment.
regards
John
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I suppose I was dreaming about 'Rosemary Burnham'. I dont think it was on the Avon list. They are asking £30 for plicatus 'Wendy' this year - now if I sold all of mine ...
Here's a taster of photos to post later
4.45pm and still light enough to drive without headlights
I tried to upload Janis' list for 2008 but the web site said no, no no! If you want it email me
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Here pix of 'South Hayes', from a very reputable source, from whom I've had no trouble in the past.
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Hello Anne,
I hope it wasn't the same source as mine as I am still waiting in anticipation for the first flower :-\ It doesn't look a bit like a mature one, but does it need to settle down like some do (eg Mrs Thompson)?
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The petals look the wrong shape
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Here are a few flowers from today. Too windy for outside so I had to photograph them in the house
elwesii 'Cedric's Prolific'
elwesii 'Comet'
elwesii ex Backhouse Garden
elwesii monostictus ex Ebay - very small mark on all flowers
elwesii monostictus ex Ebay - curled leaves like last year
elwesii 'Pyramid' - stupid name really and named by me but I think a pyramid can have three sides
'Galatea'
nivalis 'Angelique'
elwesii supplied with 'Angelique' by a known company. I did get a new 'Angelique'
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Anne here's a message from Janet of 'Judy's Snowdrops'
"Yes I would say the plant is South Hayes, obviously minus the green stripe. Without the green stripe the outer petals retain the normal shape; with the stripe, due to the different cell sizes between the white and green cells, the petal gets a flatter shape, so when open it gives it that "pagoda" shape.
I have only known one person who has said that theirs reverted to a normal South Hayes the year after it was blind."
and a photo also of a 'South Hayes' minus the stripe
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Continuing with mine from today
plicatus 'Sophie North'
plicatus 'Wendy's Gold' - not very yellow this year. I think lack of sun is to blame
'Sibertoft Manor' - very large flowers
'Sibertoft Manor- a wee mistake on one inner petal
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"I have only known one person who has said that theirs reverted to a normal South Hayes the year after it was blind."
Does that mean it's unlikely that mine will become true again?
It's very disappointing as I was hoping to breed from it this year.
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A news article featuring one of our forum contributors
http://www.newswales.co.uk/?section=Tourism&F=1&id=13093
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Well found, Alan. That's a good bit of publicity forthe garden and for Kristina!
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Mark,
Great pics. Love that South Hayes with it's unusual shape and markings. Is 'Sibbertoft Manor' supposed to have markings as in your picture? If so, what I have here and rave about as lovely most definitely isn't the actual 'Sibbertoft Manor'. I'm assuming that the one in your picture is an abberation, as I can't see one with markings like that being named anway?
Really wonderful pics! So clear and "pure". Great stuff!! 8)
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Anne I have just acquired South Hayes and my supplier ( a very well known grower) who twin scales has told me that a small percentage of those produced do not have the correct markings and indicated that this was a mutation and would not be recoverable. He told me that if this were to happen to mine it would be replaced FOC. I am holding my breath
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Paul it is just a mistake on one petal
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Cool. Just had to check. I didn't want my favourite Galanthus to actually be mislabelled!! ;D
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It seems to me that South Hayes is not stabile enough, after twinscaling it can degenerate to the form where it came out, that happens with other plants as well.
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Hi all,
only a careful question. What is it? G.elwesii elwesii or G. gracilis? Where is the border? Or is it a ssp. from G. elwesii???
The much of us can`t have the yellow VIRIDAPICE from mrohowes. Where is the problem?
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The flower looks like LORD LIEUTENANT
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Hagen : for me is this a elwesii
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Look at this ... Galanthus 'Phil's Fancy' supplied by Stella Tracey. It was photographed in a Devon garden. I believe 'Phil' is Phil Cornish who informed me today, and I think discussed elsewhere, that this is his last year selling snowdrops "I have no drops of interest to sell this season as my stock is almost out , losses have been heavy, & I intend to stop after this year to concentrate on getting some growth going"
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Here is 'Lord Lieutenant' that Hagen has mentioned
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Mark,
I love Phil's Fancy. Nice and different!! ;D
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Thanks for the info on South Hayes, everyone. Am awaiting reply from supplier.
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Thanks for the info on South Hayes, everyone. Am awaiting reply from supplier.
Resurrecting an old thread here. Anne - did you hear back from the supplier? I would be curious to see how the flower looks this year.
With kind regards
John
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I have been having a really bad season this year. Here are some of the things that can go wrong. But don't look if you are of a nervous disposition or prone to nightmares.
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Both the larger bulbs (G. elwesii barnes) here managed to flower and I would not have known there was anything wrong if I hadn't dug the clump up. The smaller bulb on the right of the second picture is really just a shell.
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Next to the above was G. elwesii hiemelis. People sometimes report that a snowdrop fails to appear one year but shows up again a year or two later - this might be the reason. No root growth, in fact not much of a basal plate for the roots to have grown from. One of the bulbs (bottom right?) had a hole right through from top to bottom. And yet the bulbs are not dead so I think there is a chance some may recover eventually. I'm not sure what is doing the damage. By the way, I have sprayed these bulbs with a 'fungicide' of sulphur in fatty acids, which experience has taught me does no harm although I don't know if it does any good.
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These unnamed early elwesii seem relatively clean (I've washed them prior to the photo) or should I be suspicious of the small dark marks? Either way there is very little root growth.
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This is, or was, Tubby Merlin. This actually managed to flower on several of these bulbs but a few red marks on the leaves would indicate that this is stagonospora curtisii, although you could easily fail to notice this. In some cases the interior of the bulb still appears healthy so I will pot-up these bulbs, isolate the pot, change the compost, clean the bulbs again in August and hope for the best. Perhaps hiemelis has the same problem but without enough leaves to show other symptoms? It will get the same treatment!
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Dear me, alan, you are having a torrid time of it. :P
Pests and diseases coming at you from all directions: I'd take care crossing the road if I were you..... oh, and get yourself a four-leaved clover as soon as poss! ;)
Wet summers, this horrible winter, no wonder there are so many problems.... just hope your clean up attempts are successful. Good luck!
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Is it a bad case of stag on the lower photos and a predator eating the first? I dump bulbs that I find like that
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Is it a bad case of stag on the lower photos
In the last case, yes. But the elwesii with just a few roots shows few signs of disease otherwise and barnes has some strange features like the holed bulb.
and a predator eating the first?
Undoubtedly, but what predator and how do I fight it?
I dump bulbs that I find like that
because you have many more snowdrops than I do. I want to find if such bulbs can be cured given enough time and effort.
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Perhaps I should explain that although this looks horrific I now have the majority of my snowdrops in pots as, so far, the is has stopped insect predation and would help to prevent the spread of stagonospora (although fortunately, so far, the potted snowdrops have been very healthy). But I don't think we know enough about snowdrop pests and diseases and it's easy to be complacent until you get hit.
I'm open to suggestions about treatments.
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Alan
When bad things happen to any clump (growing in the ground, I now have very few in pots) I drench the area in a strong solution of Jetfire disinfectant.
Steve
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Even if I have one of a kind diseased snowdrop it has to go.
I cant stop Stag but I can now stop the fly. It only takes a very small amount in a wheel barrow of planting mix to stop them for two years
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Even if I have one of a kind diseased snowdrop it has to go.
I cant stop Stag but I can now stop the fly. It only takes a very small amount in a wheel barrow of planting mix to stop them for two years
"a very small amount" OF WHAT?
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Alan
When bad things happen to any clump (growing in the ground, I now have very few in pots) I drench the area in a strong solution of Jetfire disinfectant.
Steve
Thanks for that advice, Steve. Do you think this works for fungal diseases as well as insects? And I presume you remove the snowdrops first?
I cant stop Stag but I can now stop the fly. It only takes a very small amount in a wheel barrow of planting mix to stop them for two years
A small amount of what, Mark?
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I think it's Marks secret recipe
but I like to know to
I fount one narcisfly larve in my G. reg olgae
Roland
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I bought two clumps of Viridapice and one of the plants looked like this (see pix). I've obviously not planted that one, but should I be discarding the whole clump or indeed both clumps as they have been sitting together in a plastic bag during transit? Does anyone recognise this as a pest or pathogen attack? I couldn't see anything wrong with the bulb, but as you'll know by now, I'm a complete novice.
I welcome any advice!
Susanne
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Hi Susanne
To me it just looks like a bit of frost damage followed by being shoved in a plastic bag. I would get it potted up separately and out in the fresh air asap. As a precaution I would be inclined to keep it away from everything else (just in case it goes down with botritus or something) - but I expect next year it will be fine.
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Well the bulb looks healthy enough but the leaves look too dead to do any more work this year so I would cut the leaves off and bin them to be on the safe side, then pot-up the bulb.
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Thanks John and Alan - I have fished the offending snowdrop out of the bin and will pot it up today and put it into quarantine (my other snowdrops are free range, so there shouldn't be any chance of a mix-up). Susanne
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I bought some snowdrops
7 days on transport with DHL
and 15 phone calls later a broken parcel
9 packets with snowdrops missing
sleepless nights
the pictures tells enough
Roland
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:o
My guess is the bulbs may be OK. How do they feel?
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Hi mark
Most bulbs are ok but many packets contain 2 , 3 , or 4 sorts
with the label fixed on the leaves so
many mixed bulbs you understand and a lot of work next year
for sorting out
good lesson always pack one sort by one
Roland
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I've just seen my first ever Narcissus fly - sitting on the leaves of my one and only bulb of 'Don Armstrong'. I've sprayed the critter with fly killer - but my question now is do I dig the bulb up and look at it or leave it and hope for the best. If I do dig it up will I be looking to see a fly egg or something? :-\
Please help to put my mind at rest. :'(
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I've just seen my first ever Narcissus fly - sitting on the leaves of my one and only bulb of 'Don Armstrong'. I've sprayed the critter with fly killer - but my question now is do I dig the bulb up and look at it or leave it and hope for the best. If I do dig it up will I be looking to see a fly egg or something? :-\
Please help to put my mind at rest. :'(
How about a good drench of Provado and then a screen atop until fully dormant?
johnw
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They have been active for a few weeks now. I saw my first in mid May. Killed lots and it feels good when it's a female. I've been sparying with an agricultural insecticide on the leaves and at the leaf bases.
John the eggs are minute so you'll probably not see it anyway
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My nail is 15mm across. The enlarged photo shows my nail 15cm across. That makes each egg - someone do the mathmatics please :-[
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I think I worked it out. The eggs in the opened photo are 10mm making them 1mm in real life = not easy to see on a leaf
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I cant stop Stag but I can now stop the fly. It only takes a very small amount in a wheel barrow of planting mix to stop them for two years
Did anyone ever find out of what?
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.... I've been sparying with an agricultural insecticide on the leaves and at the leaf bases.....
You need access to agricultural insecticides to be able to stop the narcissus fly.
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Alan I showed your photos to Brian Duncan who is a Narcissus expert here in N Ireland. This is his reply
"Mark,
It all looks horrible - there is evidence of bulb scale mite, basal rot and neck rot - presumably these all attack snowdrops as well as daffodils. Were the bulbs dry stored before planting? Is the plot suitably drained? Were the bulbs planted deep enough? Were the bulbs from healthy stock? - so many questions, but no definate answers. If I had such bulbs I'd subject them to Hot Water Treatment with fungicide and insecticide (112F / 44c for 2 hours) - that would sort them.
Brian"
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(1112F for 2 hours)
1112 F... are you sure??
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Alan I showed your photos to Brian Duncan who is a Narcissus expert here in N Ireland. This is his reply
"Mark,
If I had such bulbs I'd subject them to Hot Water Treatment with fungicide and insecticide (1112F for 2 hours) - that would sort them.
Brian"
1112F :o :o :o That would sort out the pan as well.
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I never noticed Brian made a typo. I'll change it now
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Alan I showed your photos to Brian Duncan who is a Narcissus expert here in N Ireland.
I take it you mean the photos at the start of this thread?
This is his reply
"Mark,
It all looks horrible - there is evidence of bulb scale mite, basal rot and neck rot - presumably these all attack snowdrops as well as daffodils.
Well there was rot aplenty in some of the photos. I wonder how you spot bulb scale mite?
Were the bulbs dry stored before planting?
No. I don't know of anyone who does this with snowdrops.
Is the plot suitably drained? Were the bulbs planted deep enough? Were the bulbs from healthy stock?
All the snowdrops had survived and prospered in the same location for several years before succumbing to attack.
If I had such bulbs I'd subject them to Hot Water Treatment with fungicide and insecticide (112F / 44c for 2 hours) - that would sort them.
Brian"
Are snowdrop bulbs too small to survive the hot water treatment meted out to daffodils?
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Brian now concentrates on breeding miniature Narcissus and guess he treats them. I'll show him your answers. Do you want to email him or telephone?
He asks about dry storage because Narcissus breeders lift all their bulbs in the summer, dry them, rub off excess tunics and treat them.
Why not fly in with Easy Peasy jet and spend a day chatting to him? I'll take you.
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Thanks, Mark, that's a very kind offer. I'll send you a P.M. (but not straight away - I'm supposed to be working on my tax return).
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I've just been investigating a pot of G. Rodmarton that were in quarantine by virtue of growing close to one of the unfortunate bulbs pictured at the beginning of this thread. What I found were ten small bulbs in excellent health, perfectly clean and with really strong root growth. I suspect they are small because I cleaned them harshly last season but if they ever had any problems they have made a full recovery. So the message from this thread should not be one of doom and gloom but of the need for vigilance.
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Alan
I'm well into my programme of digging up bulbs and replanting in lattice pots. The bulb inspection that comes in the middle shows a surprisingly high percentage of bulbs in doubtful or poor health even among healthy companions. The ill-health isn't necessarily apparent from the part of the plant that is visible above ground. So the programme, though as lot of work, is proving worthwhile. Disinfecting/fungiciding the ground the bulbs came from has become a standard part of the routine. Costly on the chemicals though.
Steve
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Here is a brief excerpt from the following site:
http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20001007697.html (http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20001007697.html)
"Three isolates antagonistic to Stagonospora curtisii on Narcissus sp. were isolated and selected from fields of Zhangzhou Jiuhu. The morphology, cultivation, physiology, biochemistry and DNA base compositions of these isolates were tested for identification. CS5 was characterized as Bacillus subtilis, CS51 as B. cereus and CS121 as Pseudomonas fluorescens. Their DNA base compositions were 43.7%, 39.1% and 66.8%, respectively."
If anyone can access the full document through a university it might well be worth looking into.
johnw
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Alan
I'm well into my programme of digging up bulbs and replanting in lattice pots. The bulb inspection that comes in the middle shows a surprisingly high percentage of bulbs in doubtful or poor health even among healthy companions. The ill-health isn't necessarily apparent from the part of the plant that is visible above ground. So the programme, though as lot of work, is proving worthwhile. Disinfecting/fungiciding the ground the bulbs came from has become a standard part of the routine. Costly on the chemicals though.
Steve
Steve
Do you wait until the plant has finished flowering before you replant in the lattice pot, or is it a rolling programme?
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Uch no!! My Ecusson d'or is dead... brown and mushy with a little white wriggly worm.
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Clean Ecusson now and get it in to some vermiculite or take some advice from someone who twinscales
I've had mine a couple of years but it hasnt flowered since
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Alan
I'm well into my programme of digging up bulbs and replanting in lattice pots. The bulb inspection that comes in the middle shows a surprisingly high percentage of bulbs in doubtful or poor health even among healthy companions. The ill-health isn't necessarily apparent from the part of the plant that is visible above ground. So the programme, though as lot of work, is proving worthwhile. Disinfecting/fungiciding the ground the bulbs came from has become a standard part of the routine. Costly on the chemicals though.
Steve
What fungicide do you use Steve? There seem to be very few available to amateurs now.
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Clean Ecusson now and get it in to some vermiculite or take some advice from someone who twinscales
I've had mine a couple of years but it hasnt flowered since
Thanks for the very useful advise. But I tried cleaning the 'tunic' off and the entire bulb is dead. Beyond salvation...
The annoying thing is I only bought it last year, so have never really seen it in pristine flower.
Win some, lose some.
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You need to be very observant in June and kill as many Narcissus fly adults you can see.
I've been to so many gardens where people say "I dont have them" or "I've never seen one" and within minutes I see them
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Malcolm, if there is ANY bulb material left I would try to give it a clean and keep it in vermiculite in a bag in the airing cupboard for a few weeks..... we have seen before in the Forum that some folks have had remarkable success in recovering new growth from horribly chewed remains.... worth a try for a special bulb. It may work from even a few millimetres of white bulb.
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Malcolm, if there is ANY bulb material left I would try to give it a clean and keep it in vermiculite
The only bit of white was the grub, the rest was brown and mushy.
As dead as a Norwegian Blue. It's now pushing up daisies!!
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Oh dear.... or perhaps I should say Good Grief! Sorry for your loss.
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I've been to so many gardens where people say "I dont have them" or "I've never seen one" and within minutes I see them
But that's always the way of things, isn't it Mark? Once you're "attuned" to a particular problem, a pest or disease, then it becomes easy to spot, but until then it can be very difficult. A similar skill is involved in looking at a mass of "ordinary" snowdrops and picking-out the unusual ones.
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Since I first heard of Martin Baxendale patrolling his garden with a tennis racquet to swat the narcissus fly, I can't see anyone walking with one (to the nearby tennis courts) without thinking first that they must be bulb growers ::)
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Very true Alan. When I was in Northumberland in 2006 I couldnt see any yellows until they were pointed out but I soon got my eyed tuned in to yellow. Soon pocs were popping up all over the place
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Are snowdrop bulbs too small to survive the hot water treatment meted out to daffodils?
I hope Galanthophiles did not miss this very relevant point made by Alanb. Coincidentally after this point was made I was googling stag and one hit clearly stated immersing 2 hours at 110-114F for large Hippeastrums. Then noted for smaller bulbs (like Galanthus?) maybe a half hour. Another site recommended to first immerse Hipps at 75F to warm them up, then the 2 hr. bath at 110-114F, followed by quick immersion in cold water to cool the bulbs off.
The book suggests repotting in sand and grit as I recall.
I wonder who has successfully done the immersion treatment with Galanthus and the protocol they followed? We are not keen on cooking any.
johnw
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Steve
Do you wait until the plant has finished flowering before you replant in the lattice pot, or is it a rolling programme?
I know this question wasn't addressed to me but I think any snowdrop showing signs of ill health should be dug up and inspected immediately. Even a snowdrop that is doing less well than it did last year might be included in that category. I strongly suspect that once the weather warms up a bit the snowdrop pathogens will out-perform the snowdrop and kill it, whereas in colder weather the snowdrop may be able to outperform the pathogen and you might be able to rescue it.
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Yes indeed, I'd extend that caution to most bulbs, Alan. Better safe than sorry is not a bad motto.
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Steve
Do you wait until the plant has finished flowering before you replant in the lattice pot, or is it a rolling programme?
I know this question wasn't addressed to me but I think any snowdrop showing signs of ill health should be dug up and inspected immediately. Even a snowdrop that is doing less well than it did last year might be included in that category. I strongly suspect that once the weather warms up a bit the snowdrop pathogens will out-perform the snowdrop and kill it, whereas in colder weather the snowdrop may be able to outperform the pathogen and you might be able to rescue it.
Mine is a rolling programme based on exactly the category of bulbs Alan describes. When I get the bulbs out the damage is usually more severe than the foliage would lead one to suspect.
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Steve
Does this mean that your healthy bulbs will not be put into lattice pots until they are dormant?
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... I strongly suspect that once the weather warms up a bit the snowdrop pathogens will out-perform the snowdrop and kill it, whereas in colder weather the snowdrop may be able to outperform the pathogen and you might be able to rescue it.
...When I get the bulbs out the damage is usually more severe than the foliage would lead one to suspect.
Yes, that is my observation too. That's what has lead me to conclude that the snowdrop must get off to a good start but is eventually beaten down by the pathogen as that becomes more active.
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I'm sorry for your loss Alan
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Thanks, Arda but I think everyone with an interest in plants will suffer losses. What I would like to do is learn how to best prevent more losses in future.
This bulb came to me as an unexpected gift from a friend on the forum. Don't click on the picture if you don't have a strong stomach. You are looking at the bulb from the underside - it has completely lost its bottom half (including basal plate) but there are still signs of life. Is there any hope I could rescue this?
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A truly disturbing picture there Alan, but still a picture of hope too :)
Natures own way of propagation, with a little help from you of course ;)
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Are the white things mini bulbils or slug eggs?
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This bulb came to me as an unexpected gift from a friend on the forum. Don't click on the picture if you don't have a strong stomach. You are looking at the bulb from the underside - it has completely lost its bottom half (including basal plate) but there are still signs of life. Is there any hope I could rescue this?
And still a friend?
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And still a friend?
Absolutely. I very much doubt the problem came with the bulb and if it did, he was not to know.
I don't know what the white things are, Mark. The photograph viewed on a computer monitor shows more detail than you can see with the naked eye. I need a microscope.
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I do believe there's hope.... scrape all the gunk away with a very sharp blade, clean it up and I reckon those little white lumps will convert to bulblets.
Courage, Alan!
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Something is eating my snowdrops! Galanthus corcyrensis (or reginae-olgae ssp. vernalis if I must). One clump is very chewed and the nearest two look as if something has eaten the flowers. The rest of the clumps look fine. I suspect a vole or possibly a mouse. I think the roe deer would have eaten more.
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I think the roe deer would have eaten more.
I'm told snowdrops are not very palatable but sometimes a rabbit will nibble a few before reaching that conclusion. Or a roe deer perhaps?
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... I reckon those little white lumps will convert to bulblets.
Yes, the eye of faith can certainly see bulblets forming, but does that mean I should put it in vermiculite in the airing cupboard rather than back in the ground?
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Have you pheasants, Roma?
Or hens? My hens don't eat the snowdrops but they do pick at the flowers and leave them on the ground.
Paddy
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Steve
Does this mean that your healthy bulbs will not be put into lattice pots until they are dormant?
Arthur
Its a bit complicated. About half of my repotting into lattice pots (preceded by the routine I posted a few days ago) are rescue jobs where ill-health is visible in the plants. The other half are healthy plants where a) the clump is very small (maybe just a single bulb acquired and planted last year) and b) it is either quite rare and therefore costly to replace, or is growing not too far from one of the ill-health clumps.
I reckon it will take three years to complete the exercise. I already have stacks of the lattice pots. Keeps me off the streets.
I also change the immediate soil where I take the bulbs from and disinfect the surrounding area whether the bulb(s) coming out are ill or sound. So there is a cost involved.
Steve
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... I reckon those little white lumps will convert to bulblets.
Yes, the eye of faith can certainly see bulblets forming, but does that mean I should put it in vermiculite in the airing cupboard rather than back in the ground?
My vote is for the airing cupboard.... gimme a minute I'll canvass the BD...........
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And the BD says...... he'd plant it in the ground since at this time of year the pips will soon be wanting to make roots and he thinks that the ground is where they'll best do that.
Have to say that Ian the BD is better than me at such things, so.........
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My vote would be for sharp course sand in a pot in the garden.
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My vote would be for sharp course sand in a pot in the garden.
... in a pot in the garden....do you mean in a pot plunged in the garden, John?
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I know this is a bit much, two horror stories in one day, but this pot used to contain a bulb of Trym and a bulb of Percy Picton. When neither appeared I inspected the contents. Absolutely no trace of the bulbs but two big fat happy grubs (one is towards the front of the picture and the other is just in front of the pot. These creatures seem to be the scourge of my attempts to grow snowdrops. I think they are the larvae of the swift moth because these eat roots and bulbs and they look pretty similar to the pictures I have seen. This is the first time (to my knowledge) any of my pot-raised snowdrop has been eaten which is bad, because I had been hoping the moths avoided laying eggs in pots. On the other hand the circumstantial evidence against these insects is now so strong I will be forced to investigate means of combating them. The moths themselves are said to be active May to July so maybe I should be looking to apply some sort of treatment (insecticide/nematode/) at that time?
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lets see what Anthony says but they arent what I call swift moth caterpillars? Are they still alive? Can you get a better macro shot of them?
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I'm now educated
you are correct with your ID.
Dursban that I mentioned for sooooo long will sort out this caterpillar, vine weevil grubs, Narcissus fly adults emerging, leather jackets ...
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Can you buy Dursban? It sounds like some very nasty stuff and is banned for anything but agricultural use in the US. This is interesting reading:
http://www.bhopal.net/delhi-marchers/factsheets/Dursban.pdf
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This thread is really demoralizing :)
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If I can only grow snowdrops with the use of industrial-strength insecticides that fell off the back of a tractor then it will take a lot of the fun out of it for me! I don't mind doing some work, particularly where I only have one bulb of the cultivar, but I would rather use something that was 50% effective on killing swift moth larvae and 0% effective on killing me than something that was 100% effective on killing swift moth larvae and 1% effective on killing me.
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I am of the opinion that something 100percent effective at killing anything is equally likely to be 100 per cent effective at killing people...... all too risky.... I can get enough risk taking thrills crossing the road, I don't need to try chemical poisoning on that scale.
I've seen too many sickly farmers. :P :-X
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Can you buy Dursban? It sounds like some very nasty stuff and is banned for anything but agricultural use in the US. This is interesting reading:
http://www.bhopal.net/delhi-marchers/factsheets/Dursban.pdf
Good Lord. :o A nerve toxin developed by Nazi's for chemical warfare in 1930 - and now used as a bug spray. :-X
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I just like to tell my tale of woe,i went to my sisters house for christmas leaving all my snowdrops 12cmx12cm pots outside(they were in pots because of a house move) forgot about them,to cut a long story short lost loads of them due to frost,very very big lesson learnt. :( :'( putting the rest in the ground today if stops raining.
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Can you buy Dursban? It sounds like some very nasty stuff and is banned for anything but agricultural use in the US. This is interesting reading:
http://www.bhopal.net/delhi-marchers/factsheets/Dursban.pdf
Good Lord. :o A nerve toxin developed by Nazi's for chemical warfare in 1930 - and now used as a bug spray. :-X
History of nerve agents
Early pioneers in the field include Jean Louis Lassaigne (early 19th century) and Philip de Clermount (1854). In 1932, German chemist Willy Lange and his graduate student, Gerde von Krueger, first described the cholinergic nervous system effects of organophosphates, noting a choking sensation and a dimming of vision after exposure. This discovery later inspired German chemist Gerhard Schrader at company IG Farben in the 1930s to experiment with these compounds as insecticides. Their potential use as chemical warfare agents soon became apparent, and the Nazi government put Schrader in charge of developing organophosphate (in the broader sense of the word) nerve gases. Schrader's laboratory discovered the G series of weapons, which included Sarin, Tabun, and Soman. The Nazis produced large quantities of these compounds, though did not use them during World War II. British scientists experimented with a cholinergic organophosphate of their own, called diisopropylfluorophosphate (DFP), during the war. The British later produced VX nerve agent, which was many times more potent than the G series, in the early 1950s, almost 20 years after the Germans had discovered the G series.
After World War II, American companies gained access to some information from Schrader's laboratory, and began synthesizing organophosphate pesticides in large quantities. Parathion was among the first marketed, followed by malathion and azinphosmethyl. The popularity of these insecticides increased after many of the organochlorine insecticides like DDT, dieldrin, and heptachlor were banned in the 1970s
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I just like to tell my tale of woe,i went to my sisters house for christmas leaving all my snowdrops 12cmx12cm pots outside(they were in pots because of a house move) forgot about them,to cut a long story short lost loads of them due to frost,very very big lesson learnt. :( :'( putting the rest in the ground today if stops raining.
Poor you Davey, thats a very hard lesson to learn. I did it too the first time I bought bulbs, I think from Avon Bulbs, many years ago. I potted them up in big pots with plenty of grit and stood them outside.
They got frozen solid and didn't survive.
I think overpotting was one of my mistakes, too much wet compost. The other mistake was to let them freeze through.
Now I put them in a sand plunge and even chuck fleece over if a hard frost is forecast and they are newly potted.
So far this winter everything in the plunge has survived despite -12 C, but I still think its safer to plant most snowdrops straight into the garden.
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Exhumed four apparently healthy clumps for routine division and latticing; one was; two had a single rotten bulb in the middle, that would doubtless have spread infection, and the fourth clump had considerable disease although there had beenno sign in the leaves apart from a slight reduction in leaf height. Now I understand better why I have lost bulbs and small clumps in the past.
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this is what i have been seeing pot after pot,i feel so stupid.This was Marjorie Brown
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Davey, your main problem seems to be an absence of roots. Those that know say planting in sharp sand is good for root formation; of course you have to feed regularly under those circumstances. I don't see that you have anything much to lose provided you keep an eye on the snowdrops and remove any that wither.
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Davey
Its difficult to tell from just one bad bulb but if you say you have this problem with quite a few pots, the problem seems more than just the growing medium - after all, healthy bulbs will try to put down roots whatever they are in. So the usual suspects are
a) frost damage leading to rotting, if the pots are quite small
b) rotting from waterlogging if the pots were standing in a wet situation before growth started
c) stagonospora disease - unlikely to have affected a lot of pots simultaneously unless you have been either v unlucky indeed or careless with the hygiene of handling and potting them (and even then widespread stag seems unlikely)
d) narcissus grub attack - but again seems unlikely to have wiped out a lot of pots simultaneously.
We've all had pots and bulbs looking like that but not in a lot of pots at the same time, I think. Any more info from your end to narrow things down?
Steve
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Can you cut the bulb in half and show the photo. Is there a hole in the base? Are the scales tinged red?
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Can you cut the bulb in half and show the photo. Is there a hole in the base? Are the scales tinged red?
Davey - It appears to me the roots have, as you say, simply frozen off in the pots. The bulb looks fine. Do you think it might be possible to chip your most important ones immediately before those shoots extend or collapse?
Here Galanthus in pots can take a lot of cold and frequently freeze as hard as rock but they absolutely must be sunk to the rim in sand or wood chips and the frame covered with white plastic or a tarp to prevent freeze/thaw, drying of the medium and water-logging. Fleece is of little use in our climate.
Best of luck to you.
johnw
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Davey
If you have lost all your Marjorie Brown, PM me and I'll send you a replacement.
Steve
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i will cut a bulb but it isn't good they are pretty mushy.
John i had intended to sink them in a plunge but my sister phoned me quite late at night to say she was 10 minutes away and we had not planned to go to hers for christmas for another couple of days,so it totally got put to the back of my mind.
Steve it is because of the freezing your right,they really could have done with being in bigger pots.
And so the reason why i feel so stupid,because of 5minutes of not thinking cost me my growing pride and joy and the other bad part is some of them were gifts,which in my eyes makes them quite precious which it makes it even a more bitter pill to swallow.
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mush could be narcissus fly poop
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I too have found one bulb that turned to a sort of mush - the top and the bottom were rotten and the middle seemed intact but spongy rather than firm and incredibly foul smelling. I'm experimenting with Citrox disinfectant and I left the clean middle in a bowl of Citrox for over 24 hours but this did little if anything to diminish the smell. And yet two other bulbs in the same pot showed no signs of harm. I generally use large 3 litre pots and have not had any problems keeping bulbs in these pots in previous years (the "horror stories" are about bulbs that were in the ground). I cut the bulb in half, there were no grubs in the middle but the scales seemed to have de-laminated, a bit like an onion. I have not been able to work out what was wrong about this particular bulb but I suppose I should be thankful that the majority did not suffer this fate.
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this is one cut and like Alans one stinks ???But all my ones that have rotted stunk.
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I am soooooo fed up with lattice pots. And mixing compost. And making fungicide. But all the new drops from the Gala and Loughborough are safely in quarantine on the staging. And 23 of the varieties showing ill-health have been exhumed and given the Alex Ferguson treatment. Including a big patch of 80+ Spindlestone Surprise whose lush foliage and flowers gave no hint that below decks bad things were happening.
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80+ Spindlestone Surprise whose lush foliage and flowers gave no hint that below decks bad things were happening.
They will make some dosh on Ebay
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Had a very draining day - emotionally draining. I dug up all the bulbs that were not showing flowers to inspect the bulbs. Over half seemed OK. The rest had a variety of problems.....and it was all the expensive ones naturally.
I brought them indoors and washed them off. By now it was too late to photograph them and the flash was too bright to get any details. I will post photos tomorrow. Here is what I found:-
1. Puck had top growth until I tried to dig it up and then the foliage came away in my hand - I could not find the bulb and took all surrounding soil to my potting shed and sifted throught it - no bulb. I am gutted. :'( Wish I had dug it up quicker.
2. Diggory - mushy bulb with few roots trying to survive and a hard core on the bottom. I have cleaned away all the gunk and washed it off. It has some strong growth but just a bottom - the sides of the bulb have turned to mush.
3. Irish Green - top growth and no roots at all - as if they have been eaten
4. Boyd's Double - bulbs badly eaten away from the sides - still has basal plate
5. Reginae olgae ssp reginae olgae - totally disappeared from the ground
6. Green Man - slightly eaten away but still has roots. This is the best of the lot
7. Robin Hood - one surviving bulb the rest rotted or eaten from sight leaving just foliage poking up but no bulb under the soil
I have some Bio Supercarb Systemic Fungicide with carbendazim (from years ago). Should I mix a solution? It says one sachet to 1/2 gallon but I don't need that much. How long do I soak them for? Then what do I pot the bulbs into - sharp sand?? I am desperate to save them if I can. I will take photos in the morning and see if anyone on here can give me some advice....please?
I have more to dig and inspect tomorrow - dread it. I suspect my soil is holding too much water and not draining but that does not account for eaten bulbs and lack of roots? All my cheaper and easier to obtain bulbs are simply thriving......in another bed.
many thanks
A very stressed Jennie with a serious headache :)
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80+ Spindlestone Surprise whose lush foliage and flowers gave no hint that below decks bad things were happening.
They will make some dosh on Ebay
I wouldn't think they were going on eBay if there was a problem below decks Mark!
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Jenny were all these from the same area or bed? If it is not drainage it could be something like swift moth. Have a look at chapter 10 of the monograph if you have it?
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Jenny were all these from the same area or bed? If it is not drainage it could be something like swift moth. Have a look at chapter 10 of the monograph if you have it?
Brian, 4 of them were from the same bed and I did see lots of wiggly brown things in the soil when I dug up Green Man - I mean lots of them! Made me feel sick. They were all planted in front of a huge dogswood bed which I thought would be perfect for them. Now I am worried that the rest (about 20 cultivars) could be at risk.
I am about to look at the monograph.
thanks
Jennie
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They don't move fast but lots ot brown-ish small grubs could be the small Narcissus fly. They lay multiple eggs at a bulb that is already dying
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I did see lots of wiggly brown things in the soil
:-\ ??? :( :'(
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Guys and girls you really have to get in to a routine of drenching your plants with a pesticide. Jennie I was in the same position as you when I was new to snowdrops and I too had to learn the hardy way.
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Mark - please tell me more about a drench. The thing is I am so careful what I water into the soil as I do not want to kill off worms and ground beetles - I could not live with myself. I love worms :) I stopped using Miracle Grow in the ground as I read that it burns worms. I have to do something though as I could not sleep last night imagining all the other drops in that bed succumbing to the same fate. I have a feeling it is swift moth grubs. I do use a trade prevention for vine weevil in my soil - I have no great love for them :)
Would lattice pots be my answer? I spent hours last night reading old posts here on the forum trying to find answers. Hence, hardly any sleep
Jennie
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Well, here they are. Not the clearest of photos as I had to take them in the kitchen as it is raining AGAIN
1. GREEN MAN - the best of the lot
2. GREEN MAN - one is very eaten away :-X
3. IRISH GREEN - no roots
4. IRISH GREEN again
5. DIGGORY - this is after I have taken away all the mush
6. DIGGORY - with a hard pad on the bottom with a few roots
7. BOYD'S DOUBLE - very eaten away, few tiny roots. Taken next to a 1p piece
They are drying up a bit now so I am going to pot them in small pots of just sharp sand for today and hope that someone can tell me what I can do???? ???
I have not used the fungicide but will if it is necessary.
I know they are different bulbs entirely, but the other year I grew some Alliums in pots and they turned to mush. I put them in the ground to give them a chance and the next year they all came back and flowered and are now multiplying like crazy although I lost a few.
many thanks
Jennie
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Jennie, to be on the safe side (and for your peace of mind) I'd get all the snowdrops in that bed up, make sure they're clean and get them into pots in good, well-drained compost (half and half sand and compost would be good for those with no or virtually no roots, and keep them watered carefully - under cover so they don't get drowned by heavy rain, watering just enough to keep the compost moist but not wet. And longer term look for a different site for them.
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Thanks Martin. I have just done exactly what you instructed and put them in my greenhouse (no heat). I gave them the tiniest trickle of water. How long do I need to leave them in the pot and when do I stop the watering?
I will dig up all of the snowdrops in that bed - it makes perfect sense. What a shame. It will take me a while to prepare enough room to sink lots of lattice pots elsewhere so all the snowdrops will have to put up with pots in the net polytunnel for a while. The ground is so boggy and it is still raining so all a long way off yet :(
I never dreamed snowdrops would be this difficult but I have them now so have to take care of them the best I can. I am so grateful for the learned advice of everyone on this forum - I would be in such a state now without your help.
Jennie
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Swift moth larvae attack the bulbs from the outside and eat their way in. Narcissus fly larvae get into the centre of the bulb and then eat their way out. I would say your hollowed-out Boyd's Double bulbs look more like the work of narcissus fly larvae.
This is what a swift moth larva looks like. Typically the ones I find are about 2 cm long.
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Alan - what a grim little thing. I know for sure I have seen these in the soil and usually cover them up quickly. I am starting to think I have both narcissi fly and swift moth grubs (so greedy I know ???) Today I dug where they were (yesterday) to take a photograph of one.....and they were not there. Probably crept off to eat my other treasures. I will look again on Monday.
Here is the dogswood border where I put all my 'best' snowdrops and this is where the infestation is :'( This is about half of it - it goes on quite a bit further. I know it is not acres of snowdrops but they are my stock plants and the best that I have.
Hope to see some of you tomorrow
Jennie
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Nice line of Cornus.
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Thanks Mark. Further up they are black, yellow again then Midwinter Fire on the end. I have wanted to put snowdrops in front of them for so long. Think it will have to be nivalis in future.
Jennie
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A grey murky day here, but at least it keeps the drops fresh. Lifted and divided a good healthy clump of maybe 40 Lavinia and once again, to one side were four diseased bulbs. So the lift-and-lattice routine is proving its worth. Jenny - in a previous post you asked how long a lifted bulb should be left in disinfectant. I routinely soak every lifted bulb, both the healthy ones and those that are unwell but I badly want to try to resurrect, in a mixture of disinfectant and fungicide for at least overnight. If I try to keep an unwell bulb I strip it of all scales until I get to clear white unmarked tissue - sometimes that means peeling it back to a central stalk. Occasionally I will remove a surface blemish with a sharpo knife and then leave the bulb in the open for that wound to dry off, just keeping the roots folded in moistened absorbent kitchen roll, before re-interring it. I never replant a cluster of bulbs but always separate them.
155 lattice pots filled, 60 to go. Time for a hot bath.....
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Thanks for your help Steve. I will soak them overnight. I have now decided to put all precious bulbs that I have very few of into lattice pots until they bulk up enough to scatter around the garden. I can suffer the odd loss if I have more than one. I just need to keep my original stock plants as safe as I can. Thanks for the tip on letting fresh wounds dry before potting - it makes sense.
Jennie
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I have begun to suspect that depth of planting may be a factor in a snowdrop bulb's susceptibility to disease and bugs. I think I may have been planting my bulbs at too shallow a depth. Could we have some comment on the depth of planting issue, and what depth people aim for? It might be helpful to hear from anyone who has changed their habitual planting depth over the years and whether that has improved healthy growing.
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Yes I would be interested to hear about depth of planting. I know that Ronald Mackenzie says 6" deep. I suppose if you are planting in 11cm lattice pots you are governed by the pot....which brings me onto another question.
1. When sinking the lattice pots into the ground, is it essential that the lip of the pot is above the soil surface? I would prefer the pots to be hidden from sight - could I mulch over the edges with bark?
2. I keep reading that bulbs in the sun are more susceptible to Narcissus Fly so I am willing to spray the ones in the sun. Can anyone either post or PM me on a suitable product for spraying and when?
3. When do the Narcissus Fly begin to lay their eggs?
thanks Jennie
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I know that Ronald Mackenzie says 6" deep
What means 6" ?
6 cm or 6 inch ?
Thank you
Hans
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Hi Hans 6" is 15cms
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Isn't the received wisdom two and a half times the bulbs height is the ideal planting depth, then if there is a descrepancy they sort it out themselves? I followed the deep planting route and wasn't that satisfied with the results, one or two have been re-planted last year and are doing much better now.
Jennie it is much better with the rim out of sight, bury it just below the surface for a pristine effect, I then have a label front and back to show me where it is.
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Hi Hans 6" is 15cms
Hi Mavers ,
Thank you !
I have also look and found that 6 inch is 15 cm ...but this seems for me pretty deep
in other hand 6 cm is not deep enough
Hans
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Yes Hans it does seem a little deep.
I usually plant large bulbed snowdrops 10- 13cms deep, that is the base of the bulb being 10-13cms down in well prepared soil & the small bulbed tiny types about 5-7cms.
Mike
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Yes Hans it does seem a little deep.
I usually plant large bulbed snowdrops 10- 13cms deep, that is the base of the bulb being 10-13cms down in well prepared soil & the small bulbed tiny types about 5-7cms.
Mike
Hi Mike ,
I make it similar like you with the planting deep .
Many of my snowdrops are in lattice pots ...and they are only 10 - 11 cm deep
From friends I know that R.Mackenzie grows also a lot of his plants in lattice pots ...
Hans
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3. When do the Narcissus Fly begin to lay their eggs?
The adults are active from the start of May and depending on the weather they can be active until July. Cold wet weather extends the season. If April is very warm they can be active from the last week.
It's not true that they only lay eggs on Narcissus and Galanthus, and many more, that are in sunny positions. I have seen them at the back of my house in places where the sun never gets to.
It isnt true that they only fly low. I have seen many fly over my house
Scroll down to Genera to see a list of bulbs in the same family as Galanthus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaryllidaceae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaryllidaceae)
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I can confirm the problems with Narcissus fly on my Amaryllidacae collection !!!
I have not so big problem with them by my Galanthus ....but I have lost many other (big ) bulbs ( mostly Hippeastrum ) with this beasties .....
:o :o :o
Hans
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Just dug up a pot which should have Pride o'the Mill in it. One enormous swift moth caterpillar which found it's way under my foot, no sign of any bulbs whatsoever, the greedy blighter :'(
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This saga of chewed bulbs is gruesome..... would it be possible, in pots at least, to make a gauze cloche to cover the plants to keep the pests from laying their egss? I realise it wouldn't look very nice, but perhaps it would only be needed for a specific period and at least such a cover could be removed for "viewing".
I have visions of whole gardens covered in gauze and the owners frantically having to be the pollinators but with the value, whether monetary or sentimental, of some of these bulbs, desperate measures may be called for.
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My washing,immersing and spraying routine is concentrated on fungicide and disinfecting, but won't spraying the leaves with a systemic insecticide at the appropriate times put paid to both swift moth and narcissus fly?
Why do I have the feeling that someone is going to post that life isn't that simple? Hopefully they will also explain why.
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... won't spraying the leaves with a systemic insecticide at the appropriate times put paid to both swift moth and narcissus fly?
Well, suppose you sprayed the leaves with a systemic insecticide in April. Would this insecticide still be active in the bulb in July? Or in October?
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No, of course not, it would have to be done at intervals during the periods the moth and fly were active - but regular applications of either systemic bugkiller or plant food are part and parcel of every gardener's regular routine, aren't they? Surely having to repeat the treatment isn't the only reason people aren't spraying? ::)Let us spray.
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I think, you missed my point, Steve. I cannot speak for the fly, but for a lot of the time when the moth is active the snowdrop has no leaves so you cannot apply a systemic insecticide.
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are not the systematics drawn in and held with in the plants tissues?and if they are they should stay there shouldn't they.I'm going to spray and drench around my plants this year,which i have to my dactylorhiza because thrips damage the tubers so i spray and drench with Provado Ultimate Bug Killer and it has worked for me,so i might as well do it to the drops as well.
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some info on the moth and the caterpillar
http://www.gardenseeker.com/plant_pests_problems/plant-pests/swift_moth_caterpillar.htm (http://www.gardenseeker.com/plant_pests_problems/plant-pests/swift_moth_caterpillar.htm)
The adult moth is about when the Narcisus fly is out
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what about trying this http://www.diatomx.co.uk/
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I am beginning to get the horrible feeling that I had when I discovered daylilies (Hemerocallis) suffered badly with gall midge in the early part of the season. I had never heard of gall midge as no-one really spoke about it - it was almost a guarded secret. I was beside myself. Then I discovered slugs and snails loved eating the foliage and flowers - more to worry about as I refuse to put down slug pellets. However, neither of these pests can actually kill the plant so I have learned to live with them (but you would not want to be around me during gall midge time) :)
Now with the Galanthus I feel I should be drenching and spraying - or possibly lose my precious bulbs. I have spent the last couple of days looking into the contents of various products I 'may' decide to use. The drench (not sure if I am allowed to mention product names) contains imidacloprid. Imidacloprid is a highly toxic systemic insecticide which is suspected to be killing off the bee population and other useful insects in the garden. It could possibly be killing birds too.
The chemical I add to my potting compost contains chiorpyrifos which is also deadly for bees collecting pollen, earthworms etc. This leaves me in a dilemma as I really want to garden as organically as I can. I have been using chiorpyrifos based products in potting compost in order to kill vine weevil for years and I never realised quite how bad it is for bees, hoverflies and other good guys.
Oh, I wish there was an organic way to deal with these new pests I am faced with ??? I may have been losing snowdrops for years but never noticed as I have the older cultivars in numbers and would not have noticed if a few died out. I am beginning to think along the lines of making some kind of cloche with guaze covering to stand over and peg down - over new and treasured bulbs until they get established or just laying fleece over them for a month or two. It will not look too good in the garden though!
Also the diatomaceous earth is something I looked into a few years back for slugs and discovered it cuts worms and earth dwelling creatures into pieces as it is like tiny shards of razor sharp glass. I did not fancy that :) I like to do my bit to look after the wildlife in my garden.
I am rambling....
Jennie
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Would it not suffice to use bark mulch around the crown of the dying foliage of snowdrops and narcissus and pressing it down around the crown of the plant to try and stop the Narcissus Fly gain entry? Or put soil or potting compost over the top leaving some dying leaves exposed?
Jennie
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I've had an idea for a while, that I have not yet realised, to mix up some sort of temporary paste (say flour and water) and use it to apply something sharp to the exterior of the snowdrop bulb. I was thinking about using fine grit; maybe diamatacous earth would be better, maybe it would be too good. The idea is to discourage swift moth larvae eating their way into a bulb by making the process too uncomfortable. Obviously, this would work best if applied when the bulb is dormant so it can be completely covered. But I would want the paste/glue to dissolve away over a period of a few weeks just leaving the sharp grit behind once the bulb is planted.
I'm not sure if this is a good idea and I'm not sure if it is, what to use as my paste/glue. Any thoughts?
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copydex ? I think it was made from fish :-X used it at school.
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Chlorpyrifos is the active ingrediant in Dursban that is favoured by Narcissus growers to stop Narcissus fly
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Here is a old german proverb :
"Ein guter Gärtner braucht ein hartes Herz und eine scharfe Schere"
Please Maggi translation !
In our case :
"a hard heart and a good insecticide !"
Hans
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Here is a old german proverb :
"Ein guter Gärtner braucht ein hartes Herz und eine scharfe Schere"
I think that this roughly translates as "A good gardener needs a hard heart and a sharp pair of scissors"
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and what about the Sio2 with insecticide or fungicide Gerard talked about?sounded good to me.
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Thank you Chris :D
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A thought on narcissus fly: those of you who grow carrots will be aware of the carrot root fly, a pest similar in habits and destruction to the narcissus fly. Vegetable growers know that a time of particular danger for the carrot root fly is when thinning one's carrots - removing some of the smaller carrots to allow space for the others to grow to full size. This exposing of the roots of the carrots, it is said, leaves the scent of the carrots into the air and attracts the carrot root fly.
I wonder if moving snowdrop "in the green" has the same result - the scent of the snowdrops attracts the narcissus fly. What prompted this line of thought is the fact that I have lost a number of snowdrops over this winter but they were all ones newly planted last season or ones where I lifted clumps and transplanted. Established clumps, left alone, were not troubled.
People growing carrots regularly interplant their carrots with a scented flower, marigold, for example. I wonder if there is some way to disguise the smell of the snowdrop and had it in mind to dip the new snowdrops into something strong smelling like Jeyes Fluid - a very strong smelling disinfectant, very similar to "Armillitox", if not the same.
Any thoughts or comments on this?
Paddy
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Yes Paddy, I think Jeyes fluid smells horrid, public toilets :o
Please interplant with marigolds instead ;D ;D
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Any post Jo?
Paddy good thinking. It is mostly always new plants that are attacked but I dont like the smell of African marigolds Tagetes sp.
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Jo,
I would tolerate the smell for the hour or two it would take for it to disperse. It would only be to mask the scent of the snowdrop. The smell doesn't bother me - I use Jeyes Fluid to clean our bins when they have been emptied. By the way, this product is often called "Jaysus Fluid" here in Ireland. ("Jaysus = Jesus).
Mark, it might be worth a try, even to pour in onto the ground after planting. Armillitox (really Jeyes Fluid in a different packing) is used to disinfect soil and clear it of all fungal infections and insect population. Of course, with such effects it should be used sparingly and only locally. I have used it to treat bootlace fungus previously.
Paddy
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Any post Jo?
Paddy good thinking. It is mostly always new plants that are attacked but I dont like the smell of African marigolds Tagetes sp.
Yes Mark ;) ;) ;) :-*
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excellent. How did the photo session go today?
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what about companion planting with garlic or an allium of sorts,it works with other plants.
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Davey,
I like to keep my garlic for eating.
Paddy
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Paddy - your idea of Jeyes fluid interests me. I presume a fairly dilute mix of Jeyes would not harm the bulb if it was dipped quickly in it?
Aside from Narcissus Fly problems I think I may have imported virus on some un named plicatus. I also dug some other bulbs and wondered if they had stag, or is the orangey colour quite normal? Does the foliage of Wendy's Gold always look yellowy? Here are some pictures below if anyone would be kind enough to give me their opinion?
thanks Jennie
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Jennie the spiders web marks dont look like virus. Some named ones do have virus but it doesnt affect their vigour - Florence Baker and Augustus
Can you re-edit your bulb photos and concentrate on the bulbs. One has a deformed growing point and one looks like it is rotting. If you want to email me your full sized images and I'll edit them to show what's needed
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My edits arent any better than yours. I am stumped as to what is making the tracks on some of your leaves
The bulbs of Robin Hood need a good soaking or strip everything back to clean white flesh. Soak them for maybe a day in a good fungicide.
The plicatus leaves are not happy.
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Jennie,
My thoughts re the Jeyes Fluid was to use it to drench the soil where bulbs were to be planted. This would equate to standing the bulbs in a solution for some time. And, yes, it certainly would be a dilute solution.
Paddy
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My head is spinning with all the snowdrop problems this year. I had two tiny patches of Robin Hood - one got eaten and one has stag - glad it was not one of the most expensive ones. I only noticed something was wrong because all of the flowers had fallen over for no reason, although they were not rotting at the base of the stem. They are now in fungicide.
Thanks for your help Mark. I have just checked my camera settings to find I was still on 2.5mega pixels from last summer which means all photos this year are small files ::)
All plants are going to get a spray with fungicide - my organic gardening will have to wait until later in the year :)
Paddy - I got a Jeyes in a shake on powder form a couple of weeks ago - I wonder if the bulbs could be powdered with this or might it harm them? Just a thought
Jennie
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Jennie,
I think the Jeyes powder might be too strong to apply directly to a bulb.
Paddy
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The leaf markings almost look like some kind of leaf miner damage Jennie, but must admit I've never had any problems with them myself before with snowdrops. Has anybody else?
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gulp :o :o :'(
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Can i ask does Narcissus fly prefer plicatus,elwesii to nivalis or hybrids?,this may sound like a daft question so i apologise in advance.
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Davey any Amarylidaceae
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Mark - Does stag always exhibit such dramatic foliage effects above ground? I have seen the very occassional reddish blotch on the foliage and these bulbs are quickly turfed. In what stage of decay would the bulbs be when the foliage gets to this stage? I may just be battling various rots here rather than stag, every year keep lightening the mix.
johnw
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John I'm assuming this is stag. I've removed the tips and drenched the soil around it
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Mark
Amazing a snowdrop in such a state can send up a flower. I have consistently failed with Mrs. Backhouse #12 and dug one up back in January that had a woobly shoot and flower. The large bulb was completely rotten but I found a good part right in the centre the size of a match head with roots coming out through the rot. I doubt if it will survive the extensive surgery.
johnw
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I doubt if it will survive the extensive surgery
John, I am constantly surprised at how resilient snowdrop bulbs are - after surgery, and drenching the bulb in a fungicide, did you pot it up in grit/sharp sand, rather than soil/mix, which both helps to reduce the chances of re-infection as well as encouraging root growth (and then drench the pot again a few weeks later)?
Of course, bulbs planted in this way will need to be given a liquid fertilizer to provide some nourishment.
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Does stag always exhibit such dramatic foliage effects above ground? I have seen the very occassional reddish blotch on the foliage and these bulbs are quickly turfed. In what stage of decay would the bulbs be when the foliage gets to this stage?
John, there are 4 main signs of stagno above ground viz
1. brown tips to the leaves
2. a kink in the leaf, which makes the leaf look deformed
3. red/brown blotching on the leaf
4. red/brown staining at the neck of the bulb
The last part of your question is more difficult to answer - there seems to be a lot of variability between different snowdrops. As others have mentioned elsewhere, 'Sophie North', for instance, can look absolutely immaculate above ground, but below ground it can be so far gone with stagonospora curtisii that it is not even worth trying to save - with other snowdrops almost the reverse can be true viz the visible symptoms above ground are an early warning sign that the plant has just been attacked and below ground there might be very little evidence as the infection has not yet spread to the bulb.
I think that this variability comes about because stagno spores can attack a snowdrop both through the air e.g. in a rainstorm the splash from an infected plant can land on a perfectly healthy plant, or spread by insects etc, and also below ground, through the soil, where spores of stagnospora curtisii first attach themselves to the outer scale of the bulb (they appear initially as a series of tiny brown bumps on the outer scale of what should be a clear white scale) and then these spores start to eat their way into the bulb.
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I have observed just what Chris described with 'Sophie North'. I think, given Sophie North's very, very thick leaves and thick flower segments, and reluctance with me to set seed despite hand-cross-pollination, and reluctance to produce pollen, that it may well be a triploid. As triploids tend to be strong growers, that may give it the strength to put up good leaves and flowers even while the bulbs are being killed by stag, so that you only realise there's a problem when the bulb is on its last legs. I find the same with 'Bertram Anderson', which is a triploid.
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I also dug some other bulbs and wondered if they had stag, or is the orangey colour quite normal?
Jennie - if you gently peel/scrape away the paper thin brown skin on the bulb then (with the exception of a couple of the species snowdrops) the outer scale should always be a clear white colour.
The brown/orange colour on your bulbs is where the bulb scales are rotting following attack by the spores of stagonospora curtisii.
Just soaking the bulbs in a fungicide will not, in itself, do anything to save the bulb - you must first completely remove the infected parts of the plant. On the bulb this means peeling back the scales of the bulb until you come to a completely white scale. On the leaves/stems this means removing the infected part, back to what looks like a 'clean' area.
Only once you have performed this surgery is there any value to soaking the bulb/drenching the plant in a fungicide - the fungicide will only help to protect the plant from a future attack, it will not cure/kill an existing attack.
Some snowdrop growers routinely spray their snowdrops with a fungicide spray as soon as the leaves have emerged from the soil, immediately after the plant has flowered and then again when the leaves are dieing back - in all 3 instances both the purpose, and the effect, of the fungicide spray is to protect the plant from being infected.
Once a plant is infected, no amount of spraying/soaking will do anything to kill off the attack - if you do not first remove the source of the infection, then the plant will just die and/or be a potential source of spreading infection to other plants.
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There are a number of references in this thread to a fungicide or, even better, a "good fungicide". Since the number of fungicides available to the amateur has been drastically reduced in recent times I would be interested to know what product(s) forumists have in mind (especially with regard to treatment of 'Stag', since Carbendazim is no longer available).
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Chris - Thanks. I have seen 2, 3 & 4 on imported bulbs but not #1 that I can recall.
Mrs. B. #12 was potted in sand as you suggest and got one fertilising since. Fingers crossed.
johnw
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There are a number of references in this thread to a fungicide or, even better, a "good fungicide". Since the number of fungicides available to the amateur has been drastically reduced in recent times I would be interested to know what product(s) forumists have in mind (especially with regard to treatment of 'Stag', since Carbendazim is no longer available).
Gerry - this is a frequently aired topic on the forum and a search of the archive should turn up some suggestions - as you correctly say the amateur grower is increasingly restricted in the products available.
Gordon Hanks wrote an authoratitive article in the 2009-2010 edition of the RHS Daffodil, Snowdrop & Tulip Yearbook entitled 'Fungicides for amateur daffodil growers' in which he sets out details of "all fungicides available for amateur use on ornamental plants", together with information on the law and sources of information on approved pesticides.
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Chris - Thanks. I have seen 2, 3 & 4 on imported bulbs but not #1 that I can recall.
Mrs. B. #12 was potted in sand as you suggest and got one fertilising since. Fingers crossed.
johnw
John - good luck with Mrs B.
Other symptoms of stagonospora curtisii which, in my experience, appear less frequently are
5. tiny brown spots appearing on the flowers after rain
6. small rough brown bumps appearing on the spathe
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I also dug some other bulbs and wondered if they had stag, or is the orangey colour quite normal?
Jennie - if you gently peel/scrape away the paper thin brown skin on the bulb then (with the exception of a couple of the species snowdrops) the outer scale should always be a clear white colour.
Chris - thanks for the further info on the stag infected bulbs. I will have to perform surgery tomorrow as I have potted them now and stood them far away from other snowdrops. I soaked them overnight in some old fungicide I have with Carbendizum. I am horrified at your further symptoms to look out for as in my paranoia I am thinking I have them all :) I noticed Britten's Kite and Sickle had slightly wavy leaves and a few had a red mark on the flowers.
I imagine this constant wet and rainy weather is not helping matters - I wish it would stop. Would extra grit in the soil help with Stag? What exactly causes it?
Here is a photo of Sickle with suspect looking foliage - does anyone think this is cause for concern? Not a very clear photo as it was late in the day. I notice the flower in the front looks a bit droopy as well
thanks
Jennie
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wet soils are supposed to spread stag from snowdrop to snowdrop
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I bought Paradise Giant last year at the Gala without flowers or flowers over. They are Sickle. I'm not sure which is more expensive
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There are a number of references in this thread to a fungicide or, even better, a "good fungicide". Since the number of fungicides available to the amateur has been drastically reduced in recent times I would be interested to know what product(s) forumists have in mind (especially with regard to treatment of 'Stag', since Carbendazim is no longer available).
Gerry - this is a frequently aired topic on the forum and a search of the archive should turn up some suggestions - as you correctly say the amateur grower is increasingly restricted in the products available.
Gordon Hanks wrote an authoratitive article in the 2009-2010 edition of the RHS Daffodil, Snowdrop & Tulip Yearbook entitled 'Fungicides for amateur daffodil growers' in which he sets out details of "all fungicides available for amateur use on ornamental plants", together with information on the law and sources of information on approved pesticides.
Thanks Chris. Unfortunately a search of the forum produces no useful results. Two pages from the RHS website are not encouraging:
http://apps.rhs.org.uk/advicesearch/Profile.aspx?pid=735
https://www.rhs.org.uk/advicesearch/Profile.aspx?pid=222
They state that there are no fungicides available to amateurs which will deal with leaf scorch (Stagonospora)
or basal rot (Fusarium) in Amaryllidaceae. This is confirmed by a PDF on fungicides available to amateurs which can be downloaded.
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I imagine this constant wet and rainy weather is not helping matters - I wish it would stop. Would extra grit in the soil help with Stag? What exactly causes it?
Stagno is an ever present problem - the best line of defence against it is keeping your collection of snowdrops healthy. In the 2008-2009 edition of the RHS Daffodil Snowdrop & Tulip Yearbook, I wrote an article 'Collecting Snowdrops - Some Observations' and probably the simplest way to answer your questions is to reproduce below what I think are the relevant section of that article - hope that this helps
Chris
"I should not move on without talking about my ‘mix’ but I must emphasise that this is what works for me, in my growing conditions, and is not intended in any way to be prescriptive. What I have tried to do is devise a ‘mix’ that provides both quick release and slower release fertiliser for the plants, whilst at the same time ensuring that the soil remains free draining. My ‘mix’ comprises, two parts sharp sand, two parts John Innes No 3 [1] and one part multi compost [2] – for those snowdrops that are known to require a more acidic soil, or a chalkier soil, I adjust accordingly. Since changing to this ‘mix’, I have had consistently good results, with plants generally showing strong growth, flowering well and with good natural division.
Following the very heavy and prolonged rains in the summer of 2007, when the bulbs were sitting in saturated soil for long periods, at a time when they would normally expect to be dry and dormant, I found that I had a higher than usual incidence of bulb rot and Stagonospora curtisii. So this year I have further improved the drainage by adding one part coarse grit to the ‘mix’ and, when potting/re-potting, I now seat the bulbs on a bed of sharp sand to try to avoid the bulbs sitting in wet soil in their dormant period. With increasingly unpredictable weather patterns, this will probably not be the last adjustment that I will make.
Keeping the collection healthy
I have mentioned disease and this is a constant challenge for snowdrop growers –do not assume that your snowdrops will not be hit by disease, or that if they are then it must be someone else’s fault. Whilst measures should be adopted to guard against introducing disease into the collection, the best way to guard against disease is to do everything possible to try to ensure the good health of your plants. I have already mentioned the importance of ensuring that the plants are fed well, and this cannot be overstated in helping to keep them healthy, and it is equally important that the soil is free draining and that the bulbs do not sit in soggy conditions when they are dormant.
Good hygiene is essential – none of us wants to spread disease around our own collection, or for that matter to pass it on to anyone else, so at various times of the year, when it is necessary to handle the snowdrops, and always when I am dealing with plants that I suspect may have a problem, much washing of hands takes place between handling the different plants, as well as ensuring that any tools used are dipped in Jeyes fluid, or a similar garden disinfectant. I know that some of the commercial growers go one step further and use a different set of tools for different parts of their growing area.
Newly acquired plants are carefully examined for any sign of a problem and then all of them are routinely held in quarantine for at least a year, irrespective of whom they came from. Indeed, some could remain in quarantine for up to three years if the source of the plants has had any ‘problems’ in the past. Only after a minimum of a year, and after checking that they appear to be healthy, are newly acquired snowdrops then planted out amongst the main collection.
Here I must touch upon the vexed question of fungicides, which are a general problem for private gardeners due to the lack of available products. Furthermore, fungicides may be curative or preventative and are not necessarily both. Whilst some growers routinely spray with fungicide, two or three times annually, to provide some protection against infection, there are limits to what can be done to save infected plants and in most cases, particularly where the plant is a common form, the best course of action is to carefully lift and destroy both the plant and the surrounding soil. If the infected plant cannot be removed immediately then, as a holding measure, I isolate both the plant and the surrounding soil by dusting them with Bordeaux Mixture, to help stop the infection from spreading. If a modest spraying programme is envisaged, the fungicides used should be as varied as possible, using different classes of fungicides so as to reduce the likelihood of fungicide resistance occurring.
Constant visual examination is essential when the plants are in growth and I check daily for any signs of problems. Any plant that looks in any way out of the ordinary is suspect and the policy that I operate is ‘if in doubt, chuck it out’, on the basis that it is better to do this than to take a chance and put the rest of the collection at risk. If disease is found, or suspected, both the plant and surrounding soil is immediately removed and destroyed. A plant from a different genus is then planted in its place and the surrounding Galanthus are given a precautionary drenching in fungicide. Care is needed here, in that many other bulbous species may be attacked by the fungi likely to attack snowdrops.
The only exception to my policy of destroying infected plants is for rare plants, which have been attacked by fungal disease, where I will attempt to save them. Any infection on the leaves and stem must be cut out and any infected bulb scales must be peeled back until the bulb is ‘clean’. Then the plant must be soaked in fungicide and, when it is dry, dusted with sulphur powder and then potted up in sharp sand so as to minimise conditions for re-infection and to encourage strong root growth. The plant is then kept in quarantine, with further applications of fungicide after about two weeks and during the next growth cycle. If the plant remains in sharp sand for an extended period, it is sensible to give it some liquid feed. I then cross my fingers and wait as, whilst many of the plants treated in this way appear to recover, success is by no means guaranteed. The surgery that I have described can be quite traumatic, not least for the surgeon (!), and is best left to an expert, particularly one who has access to an effective fungicide. If damage to the infected bulb is extensive, twin scaling is the best option and, in expert hands, good results have been achieved, saving rare plants that might not otherwise have survived. There is of course no treatment for plants attacked by virus.
As soon as I can, and in order to further reduce the risk of total loss of rare forms, I plant bulbs of the same form in more than one place in the garden, get a bulb twin scaled and, as a last line of defence, I place ‘back up’ bulbs with trusted friends.
I keep a log of ‘problems’ so that any trends can quickly be detected e.g. plants grown in a particular part of the garden, plants coming from a particular source, etc."
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Going through empty pots today I found this caterpillar. This is what I would have called a swift moth caterpillar. This one hides underground and comes out to feed at night
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This is what I would have called a swift moth caterpillar. This one hides underground and comes out to feed at night
I think others have shown this elsewhere Mark but this is a swift moth caterpillar - big pest of snowdrops and peonies in my garden. I think yours is a cut worm larvae, I'm sure someone else will know the species.
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wet soils are supposed to spread stag from snowdrop to snowdrop
And yet you saw perfectly fine ones on Ram Island. As mentioned some great nivalis clumps in the city here in very damp spots. Puzzling.
Crhis - do you think peat is implicated in stag?
johnw
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John I'm going back to Rams Island to help divide snowdrops so I'll be able to have a closer look for stag and if I can get back again in June the fly. Thats if I can spot them among the millions amd millions of Lough Neagh flies
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Today I have ordered everything I hope I will need to get the snowdrops in a healthier state. I ordered 40 lattice pots, a gallon spray bottle (with battery operated nozzle) for the fungicide operation & a small tub of trachoderma. Then went to the garden centre and bought John Innes no 3 and sharp sand with grit (all they had) and some Jeyes Fluid (for sterilising tools). I have several bags of horticultural sharp grit already on hand. I am thinking of adding some perlite too to lighten the mix.
All I need now is for the rain to stop so I can tackle the problems :)
Before sinking the lattice pots I will drench with fungicide and possibly Pravado for the narcissus fly. How long in between drenches should I leave - any ideas?
Have I missed anything?
thanks
Jennie
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......today I found a collapsed stem with botrytis on Cicely Hall - I instantly operated and soaked in fungicide. The bulb felt a bit soft but all I can do is hope. I think I have had the full set now but at least I will be able to identify any future problems - hopefully. Feeling pretty cheesed off with it all and cannot wait for snowdrop season to be over for this year!
Although it is raining constantly I went around and drenched everything with fungicide. I have learned it will not cure but it may stall things until the rain stops and I can have a dig around.
Jennie
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No rain in this garden for long time.
Jennie what about some raised beds in your garden?
Snowdrops should be soft at this time of year because all food stotage had gone in to the flowers and leaves
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No rain in this garden for long time
I wish we could say the same Mark,our ground is really wet here
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No rain in this garden for long time.
Jennie what about some raised beds in your garden?
Snowdrops should be soft at this time of year because all food stotage had gone in to the flowers and leaves
Thank goodness they should be soft - Cicely Hall may survive then. I think raised beds may be the answer for new stock. I have been building beds around the base of trees in my woodlandy area for 3 years in order to grow snowdrops. I was so looking forward to planting them among other woodland bits - which I will in time. I just need to keep my stock alive and bulk them up - the losses will not be so bad when I have more than one bulb of this and one bulb of that......
Jennie
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There are a number of references in this thread to a fungicide or, even better, a "good fungicide". Since the number of fungicides available to the amateur has been drastically reduced in recent times I would be interested to know what product(s) forumists have in mind (especially with regard to treatment of 'Stag', since Carbendazim is no longer available).
A lot of forumists seem to be using stocks of fungicides that are no longer commercially available, although this is not sustainable in the long term.
This year there has been some interest in the product Citrox, which is a disinfectant that is generally plant-safe. This might well have some fungicidal action, at least as a contact fungicide, and I have soaked growing bulbs for over 24 hours in Citrox without them, so far, showing any subsequent signs of harm.
Also this year there has been a lot of interest in the product Trichoderma as a means of combating Botrytis and other fungi, although we don't know if it will have any beneficial effect for Stagonospora.
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What causes Botrytis? I know it's air bourne. I have never had it on my snowdrops
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dug up the spot where my Wasp bulbs were last year & found two bulbs with no roots & weak yellow shoots that never broke the surface :(
looked fine last year, the bulbs don't look in too bad condition and aren't rotten at all so will try chipping one & potting the other.
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There are a number of references in this thread to a fungicide or, even better, a "good fungicide". Since the number of fungicides available to the amateur has been drastically reduced in recent times I would be interested to know what product(s) forumists have in mind (especially with regard to treatment of 'Stag', since Carbendazim is no longer available).
A lot of forumists seem to be using stocks of fungicides that are no longer commercially available, although this is not sustainable in the long term.
This year there has been some interest in the product Citrox, which is a disinfectant that is generally plant-safe. This might well have some fungicidal action, at least as a contact fungicide, and I have soaked growing bulbs for over 24 hours in Citrox without them, so far, showing any subsequent signs of harm.
Also this year there has been a lot of interest in the product Trichoderma as a means of combating Botrytis and other fungi, although we don't know if it will have any beneficial effect for Stagonospora.
Alan - thanks for the response. I raised this issue because my stock of Carbendazim is almost exhausted. I'm considering trying Viresco again; several years ago I found this effective in preventing or ameliorating fungal problems with fritillaries. I'll also have a look at Citrox.
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No new diseases/virus or fungal infections found today - whew :)
Peeled back the orange skin on the Robin Hood with stag and only ended up with skinny spring onion looking bulbs at the end. They are now potted into sharp sand with a tiny bit of soil added. It proved good practice for when I end up operating on a much rarer and valuable bulb. My long 'dead headers' thumbnail came in very handy :)
I am dangerously low on carbendazim fungicide now and have been making it weaker and weaker to make it last. I will also be interested to hear what product everyone decided to use. I thought Citrox was a lemon based disinfectant?
Jennie
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Jennie you shouldnt dead head all your snowdrop with your thumb nail. You might spread virus. When I do it I just pull off the ovary but I usually leave them
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Jennie you shouldnt dead head all your snowdrop with your thumb nail. You might spread virus. When I do it I just pull off the ovary but I usually leave them
Sorry Mark - I did not make that clear. The nail is for deadheading daylilies in the summer and general picking about at other plants. I don't deadhead my snowdrops - but may in the future. Thanks for the warning though.
Jennie
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I may be able to provide a little info on Citrox as I had some preliminary discussions with a company supplying it about a year ago. This was for a work project where we were looking at alternative disinfectants. Citrox is a natural product, it is an extract of a small inedible orange, and there is good evidence of antibacterial and antifungal activity. It also seems to be completely safe, even to drink, it is used to wash fruit for instance. I have not done any work to substantiate these claims but some of the work presented was done by (for instance) university groups. I would be fairly sure it will do no harm to snowdrops but I guess only time will tell whether it does any good.
It appeals to my preference for gardening "organically" where ever possible.
I have some more detailed info at work, some of it highly technical, but if anybody is interested please drop me a PM and I will forward it.
Chris
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Thanks for that info on Citrox Chris - I would love to know more about it. I am wondering if it would be any good for deterring the Narcissus Fly - anyone have any ideas?
Is Citrox suitable for sterilising tools when dealing with different clumps of snowdrops? Is it completely safe to water into the ground? Will it clean the soil where stag infected snowdrops have been growing? Does anyone know any of these answers?
I just Googled 'carbendazim' out of curiosity (and to find out why it was banned)...and to my horror found out that it kills earthworms. The other day I drenched every snowdrop in the garden with it - I now feel terrible. :'( I would love to think Citrox would do the job. In future I am only using the carbendazim to soak bulbs or use in pots.....and maybe spraying the foliage.
thanks
Jennie
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Is Citrox suitable for sterilising tools when dealing with different clumps of snowdrops?
Yes
Is it completely safe to water into the ground?
The only danger I can see is that it will kill beneficial bacteria and fungi. You won't have any of those left, given your prior use of Carbendazim.
Will it clean the soil where stag infected snowdrops have been growing?
That's the $64,000 question.
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I am going to try armilatox, works on honey fungus so may have some effect ???? It also works against vine weevil so might help with narssisus fly, swift moth etc.
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Emma,
I'm going along the same lines this year - any newly planted bulbs or disturbed clumps are going to have an Armillitox drench.
I've had quite a few losses this year and am very despondent about it, losses of plants from friends are especially disappointing.
Paddy
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Jennie,
Carbendazim is used by groundsmen to kill worms on golf courses. They use it primarily on the greens so that the surface isn't ruined by worm casts. I guess that the same will apply to worms in the garden. That's one of the advantages of growing in lattice pots in that you can apply the drench with the pot out of the ground and re-plant once the liquid has finished draining out. I know that we'd all like to garden organically but there is a balance to be struck. If you are happy to lose expensive snowdrops to stagnospora and have very deep pockets then the organic way is OK. If not, then it's best to find a treatment that works but is not detrimental to the wild life. Treating pots out of the ground is, I believe, a good compromise. It's not perhaps the easiest one because as the collection grows then so will the workload.
I hope that the losses and infections stop. It is best to get in to a regular routine of inspection so that anything that looks ill can be dealt with early. Now you know what to look for, next season should be better.
Cheers,
David
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Just read that they use Citrox to combat MRSA and bird flu... that's some product!!
http://www.citrox.net/news.php?id=101
And a whole host of other things:-
http://www.citrox.net/aboutus.php?id=63
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I may be able to provide a little info on Citrox as I had some preliminary discussions with a company supplying it about a year ago. This was for a work project where we were looking at alternative disinfectants. Citrox is a natural product, it is an extract of a small inedible orange, and there is good evidence of antibacterial and antifungal activity. It also seems to be completely safe, even to drink, it is used to wash fruit for instance. I have not done any work to substantiate these claims but some of the work presented was done by (for instance) university groups. I would be fairly sure it will do no harm to snowdrops but I guess only time will tell whether it does any good.
It appeals to my preference for gardening "organically" where ever possible.
I have some more detailed info at work, some of it highly technical, but if anybody is interested please drop me a PM and I will forward it.
Chris
Sorry I need to do this somewhat differently - the company I work for signed a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) with the company supplying Citrox. Now I cant think there would be any problem with passing on the information but if I did so I would be breaking this agreement. What I can do is have a read through the documents - as I remember there is lots of it but it is quite repetitious - and write a summary on this thread. I will try and do that at the weekend. Obviously there will be nothing about about stag, but lets see how many fungi it has been tested against.
In answer to Jennie's points - Is Citrox suitable for sterilising tools when dealing with different clumps of snowdrops?
We dont know it kills stag, assuming it does then yes it should be good for disinfecting garden tools. Might be best to leave them soaking in the Citrox solution.
Is it completely safe to water into the ground?
My guess would be yes it is safe probably should test an earthworm or two first.
Will it clean the soil where stag infected snowdrops have been growing?
Probably, you may want to try it as say a 2X concentrate as a soil drench, as it will be diluted by the water in the soil.
Sorry for not replying to the PMs.
Chris
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Jennie,
Carbendazim is used by groundsmen to kill worms on golf courses. They use it primarily on the greens so that the surface isn't ruined by worm casts. I guess that the same will apply to worms in the garden. That's one of the advantages of growing in lattice pots in that you can apply the drench with the pot out of the ground and re-plant once the liquid has finished draining out. I know that we'd all like to garden organically but there is a balance to be struck. If you are happy to lose expensive snowdrops to stagnospora and have very deep pockets then the organic way is OK. If not, then it's best to find a treatment that works but is not detrimental to the wild life. Treating pots out of the ground is, I believe, a good compromise. It's not perhaps the easiest one because as the collection grows then so will the workload.
I hope that the losses and infections stop. It is best to get in to a regular routine of inspection so that anything that looks ill can be dealt with early. Now you know what to look for, next season should be better.
Cheers,
David
Thanks David. I feel I am driving everyone nuts with all my snowdrop worries and questions - but value the great advice and guidance I have received on this forum. I do not have deep pockets unfortunately or I would just replace everything I have lost :) This year has been a steep learning curve and as you say - next season should be better. I am sure I will soon develop a way of caring for the snowdrops with minimum damage to wildlife. Hopefully anyone new to snowdrops will have learned much from this 'horror stories' thread.
Thankfully everything I have lost is fairly easily replaceable and I feel for those who have lost treasured gifts from friends - that is upsetting.
Jennie
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Jennie I found something today that is the same as one of your snowdrops had
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Jennie I found something today that is the same as one of your snowdrops had
So it is. What are you doing about it? Mine was on a plicatus too though not sure that means anything?
Jennie
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it looks like a tiny snail/slug has been eating
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Not certain that this point sits directly in the title of this thread but its a cultivation point and not worth starting a new thread for. When I lift a snowdrop clump to divide it, I've thrown out any nasties, and given the healthy ones a 24 hour bath of fungicide/disinfectant, events sometimes then delay the replanting in lattice pots. Don't want to leave them longer in the liquid in case it starts root rot. So I take them out, rinse the roots, let them dry (10 minutes is enough), gently comb the roots away from each other, and then temporarily "plant" them in small clay pots in a surround of wood shavings bought from a pet shop. The pot + plant is then watered with fungicide/disinfectant - excess drains straight through, leaving a moistened wood shaving "compost" in which the plant can happily be left for several days - and the roots are in tip-top condition when I have time to take the bulb out to either plant it or pack it into a cardboard tube for posting.
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Sorry a little later than promised as my computer crashed at the weekend, as I was completing the first version of this post. :'(
Citrox.
A variety of products are being sold by citrox ltd, and also citroxx biosciences ( a joint venture with citrox as one of the partners). The product for garden/greenhouse disinfection is available from marshalls seeds and on Amazon ( as well as other places). These products are, as far as I can tell, all based on an extract of an unripe inedible orange-like fruit. For those of you who would like a little more detail the active ingredients are claimed to be flavanoid molecules and flavanoid dimers/polymers with and without sugars attached. Importantly for good anti-microbial activity the product needs to be at an acidic pH and therefore various natural acids (eg citric acid) are included.
The products are non-toxic but they may have some effect on plants and soil organisms due to the low pH. They are fully biodegradable and much much better for the environment than synthetic fungicides.
In the lab they seem effective in killing a range of fungi and other microbes, fairly obviously stag has not been tested but botrytis has been killed successfully.
The recommendation would be to use a 2% (1 in 50 dilution) solution for 30 minutes or longer. A word of caution here - this data is for a "citrox BC" product and I dont know if it has the same concentration of active ingredient as the garden/greenhouse disinfectant. I dont see any problems in using a more concentrated solution or for a longer period, or both. Note the garden/greenhouse disinfectant is used at 5% and the suggestions below refer to this product
Will it work? For cleaned bulbs with any damage cut away I think it may well work. Perhaps a 24 hour soak will enable the compounds to penetrate into the bulb tissues. The only problem might be the pH, but I wouldnt expect any damage.
For sterilising tools, pots and seed trays, YES, this is the most obvious use.
For soaking pots of 'drops it may work, the concern here is that the soil will partially neutralise the acidity (a buffering effect) and may also absorb the active components. Again a 24 hours soak in 5%, or maybe try 8-10% citrox, would be my suggestion. Rinse well before replanting.
As a soil drench, this is more questionable. The same concerns as for soaking pots apply here, but much more so. Again I dont see this doing serious harm but not at all sure it will be effective.
Does this help at all, it may be this has just confused the situation further?
I suspect only a series of careful experiments or many years of anecdotal experience will answer this question. :( :( :(
Chris
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Thanks for all that info Chris - I am going to buy a bottle and give it a go. Another weapon in my box of tricks hopefully.
I have just had a thought concerning Narcissus Fly. In summer to deter slugs and snails & gall midge on my daylilies & Hostas I use a dilute spray of garlic which I make myself by boiling a whole garlic and straining. I then dilute it and spray over the foliage and it does help for sure. I am wondering if this same mix sprayed over the dying foliage and on the ground would help deter Narcissus Fly?? I guess its another $64 billion question :) It could put them off the scent of the bulb......maybe.....
The smell does not last long but the bugs just do not like the taste of it :)
Jennie
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....When I lift a snowdrop clump to divide it, I've thrown out any nasties, and given the healthy ones a 24 hour bath of fungicide/disinfectant, events sometimes then delay the replanting in lattice pots. Don't want to leave them longer in the liquid in case it starts root rot.
I've been using Citrox disinfectant and recently I left a group of snowdrops soaking in Citrox for around 48 hours. This was longer than I intended but circumstances went against me. Now three weeks later all these snowdrops in their different locations are looking miserable and flaccid. I presume the roots have been harmed so I think I have learned that 48 hours in Citrox at room temperature is too much.
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Depends on the concentration you used.
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Possibly. Specifically I'm using a concentrate called Agralan Citrox P. The instructions say dilute with 150 parts water to 1 part of the concentrate so I have been measuring out 5 ml with a syringe and adding it to 750 ml of water.
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Alan - will be interesting to see what happens with these ones next year. If you had killed this years roots (for example by chopping them off) what would you expect to happen next year?
Chris
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Chris, I'd expect some total losses, weak growth with small leaves and few, if any, flowers.
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Have been busy potting bulbs into lattice pots and have now had to order some more. My Avon order arrived yesterday - very nice with extra bulbs here and there....but no lattice pots. Had to put into ordinary pots and into the net tunnel out of the rain.
Was doing a check to see how the pots were doing outside and came across this (below) on Baytop rizehensis from Snowdrop Company. I only got it just over a week ago and it was potted into a very free draining mix and the lattice pots were stood on gravel and put outside. I cut off the infected area and put it straight into fungicide for 4 hours. The bulb itself looks fine. Should I complain or is it something that just happens?
Does anyone know what it is?
thanks
Jennie
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My oh my, Jennie, that looks disgusting. It could be a very bad case of Stagonospora Curtisii but surely not if it looked fine a week ago. It could be damage/stress to the roots causing the leaves to die-back prematurely then get overtaken by some form of rot. Are you sure the bulb is not discoloured?
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My oh my, Jennie, that looks disgusting. It could be a very bad case of Stagonospora Curtisii but surely not if it looked fine a week ago. It could be damage/stress to the roots causing the leaves to die-back prematurely then get overtaken by some form of rot. Are you sure the bulb is not discoloured?
I did not get a chance today but will inspect the bulb again. I suppose I will have to write a letter to Snowdrop Company and explain as there is no other way of contacting them. What a nuisance.
Thanks Alan
Jennie
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How can we interpret this intriguing article to come up with a possible treatment or preventative? Is there a chemist in the house?
http://www.gardenerscorner.org/subject056362.htm (http://www.gardenerscorner.org/subject056362.htm)
johnw
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You may know garlic keeps slugs and snails away from Hostas
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Damn I knew I should have paid more attention to the man on Gardeners World who boiled a whole garlic bulb up to make a solution to spray on hostas - they were perfect John, not a hole anywhere and they had hundreds of them, sounds like this could be worth looking into. I don't suppose for one minute it is still on iPlayer but I will see what I can find.
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The Beechgrove Garden has been using a garlic extract to spray roses.... though, as might be expected
( ::) ) neither the Beechgrove website, not the Gardeners' World site (since Brian remembers a feature there too) reveals any details of this matter.
here are some links to sites with recipes for garlic sprays.....
http://www.oisat.org/control_methods/plants_in_pest_control/garlic.html
http://www.infonet-biovision.org/default/ct/232/recipesForOrganicPesticides
http://organicgardening.about.com/od/pestcontrol/a/spraysforaphids.htm
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This is the recipe from the Gardeners world programme.
Crush one whole bulb of garlic, add 1 litre of water and boil for 5 minutes.
When cool strain and bottle, keep in the fridge.
Add 1 tablespoon to a litre of water and spray.
I dare say it is the same as the ones you indicate Maggi.
Just checked and it is quite different!
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Well done, Brian, where did you find it?
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Brian - I guess we should now find out exactly how to precisely come up with the highest concentration for stag. I wonder if you can overdo it?
Funny you should mention hostas as a friend was visiting from Holland and she said she was astounded at the hostas in NS. Well the year's weather has helped them attain great size but her question was how do you keep the slugs off them? Well strangely I never considered hostas as a target for slugs. The only one mildly attacked here is 'Invincible' which was selected for its fine shiny leaf and its resistance to....
johnw
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Maggi it was still on iPlayer so I whizzed through the programme to the right spot ;D
John we shall have to have a controlled experiment!
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Maggi it was still on iPlayer so I whizzed through the programme to the right spot ;D
Okay, so it was a recent programme, I feared it might have been ages ago.
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It was July 22nd Maggi, episode 15
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Suppose you just grow garlic in amongst your snowdrops? It's probably not going to yield the right conditions for a bumper crop of garlic but that's not the point, is it?
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Growing onions or garlic between rows of carrots protects the carrots against carrot root fly, but I think for protection against a fungal attack the garlicky "essence" would need to be physically applied.
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Suppose you just grow garlic in amongst your snowdrops? It's probably not going to yield the right conditions for a bumper crop of garlic but that's not the point, is it?
Fine until someone orders a Flocon de Neige on eBay (or worse a forumist) and then gets a very nasty surprise when it flowers. ;)
No offence to the genus as I'm a garlic devotee.
johnw
Or worse your E.A Bowles stuffed in a roast beef...
johnw
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You might well be right, Maggie, but perhaps a snowdrop bulb growing in proximity to a garlic bulb would get a continuous small dose of "garlicky essence" that could be equivalent to one large dose applied every so often?
Did I read the original recipe correctly in saying you should not heat the garlic above 60C? If so, boiling for 5 minutes might not be a good idea.
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I think Alan, that while a carrot fly might be deterred by a general garlicky "whiff" in the area, a fungus would need to be repelled by contact with the garlicky stuff.... since it is surely a component of that which acts to deter the fungus, because I don't think fungus have a sense of smell. I would really be very surprised if a actual barrier is not needed for protection.
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A few of my autumn galanthus scapes stop to grow. I fear Stago is on the way. Here is a view into the bulb. >:(
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Last weekend we cooked up a pot of garlic water to combat stag. Three garlic heads chopped finely in about 5 litres of water, we held it around 54 -56c for 35 minutes checking regularly with a digital meat thermometer so we did not exceed 60c as recommended in the aforementioned study. We are tending 25 big Hippeastrums purchased last year for a nursing home, they came with stag and after spending a very cool wet summer in the ground outdoors the stag has gone beserk. We cut off all the leaves and dunked the huge bulbs in the full strength garlic water and will spray them regularly with this. Will report back in a few months time. I wonder if this garlic water is stable or if a fresh batch should be made with every treatment. ???
The garlic pieces turned a very unusual colour of turqoise in the process.
I will give my Galanthus a dose this weekend as a safeguard, probably again when shoots appear.
johnw - close to freezing here this morning but not cold enough to have knocked the huge Canna grandes flat.
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johnw, I was thinking of trying something similar myself. Have you noticed any ill-effects of your treatment?
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johnw, I was thinking of trying something similar myself. Have you noticed any ill-effects of your treatment?
Alan - There have been no ill effects to date.
About half the Galanthus are already showing noses. The Hippeastrums look a bit cleaner than before the dranching and will get sprayed with the garlic mix shortly.
I will drench the Galanthus again in a week or so as the decreasing daylight may be good for stag. Also the ventiliation dilemma here during the cold of January and February will require drenching every few weeks.
johnw
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Just read through this thread and I think there are several factors involved here.
First I have always assumed carrot fly couldn't detect carrots if garlic was planted close by, presumably because of some volatile compond (smell). As Maggie says this is unlikely to affect a fungus! (Though it might be worth a try as a precaution against Narcissus fly?)
Secondly the abstract of the paper talks about a garlic homogenate, without looking at the full paper I cant be sure but I would assume this has not been heated in any way. They are investigating the growth of Stag on an agar plate (I think PDA is potato dextrose agar - dextrose is glucose) and find that a 1% homogenate (1gram of garlic in 100mls of water and blended?) killed (fungicidal) the fungus. However these microbes are almost always much easier to kill on these plates than in living organisms. We have to get the equivalent of a 1% homogenate into all the affected tissues. I guess putting an infected bulb in a plastic bag with say 10 mls of a 20% garlic homogenate and leaving for 8 hours might work it is certainly an idea of a place to start. Sorry have just reread this paragraph mls = millilitres.
I would still recommend that any obviously diseased tissue is cut off and then the "clean" remains are given this treatment.
There is a dilemma here - whether to heat or boil or not. All plants contain a huge variety of different compounds some of which will be decomposed by heating and some of which will be converted by heating into something else (and some of which wont be affected at all). If it is this something else which is needed then obviously the heating step is needed. In an ideal world we would compare heated against boiled against not heated. My guess would be it probably doesn't matter but as the abstract doesn't mention heating then probably not heating is the place to start.
Finally the garlic preparations used to deter slugs may not be effective in treating Stag, in fact I would rather doubt it.
Hope this all makes sense ??? ??? ???
Chris
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John - sorry I missed your comment/question about a fresh batch for every treatment. No rules about this but your heat treatment will not have sterilised the garlic soup and I would expect microbes to start growing in it. If it goes "cloudy" throw it away. As ever the most work - making up a fresh batch for each treatment - is the safest and best way.
Another thought, you are treating your Hippeastrums to cure them of Stag, but you are applying this mixture to the drops to prevent them getting the infection. Generally the prevention is easier than the treatment but also more difficult to "interpret". If you cure the infection you will be fairly sure it was the garlic treatment, if your drops don't get Stag will it be the garlic treatment or not - you will never know. Very frustrating. :-\ :-\ :-\
Chris
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Chris - I still have the batch made on 5 November in a refrigerated tight jar, it's clear.
However I intend to make a new batch for every treatment.
I'm not really expecting a cure, if I can keep spores at bay that would be a plus. As you say I may never know if the garlic worked or not. The Hippeastrums in a different location do not appear to be getting any worse so I'll spray them periodically as mentioned to see what happens. Actually I was out and checked them this evening, they look pretty good, many of the reddish blotches on the bulbs have dried and turned brown - however that could be due to the drier atmosphere in that greenhouse - they spent a desperately wet summer outdoors.
johnw
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Regarding the above - there is a stable preparation of garlic extract freely available called 'Garlic Wonder'.
With botrytis (wasn't there a thread on this? I can't find it) it may be worth trying 'Serenade'. It is only licenced for use on protected strawberries with Botrytis cinerea, in the UK, but is used for a wider range of crops (and diseases) elsewhere. (It works, I've tried it.)
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there is a stable preparation of garlic extract freely available called 'Garlic Wonder'.
Thank, Giles, I thought this tip was worth pursuing and my Garlic Wonder arrived in the post today. Now I just have to work out the dosage.
... botrytis (wasn't there a thread on this? I can't find it)
It's here http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6697.0 ; something called "Trichoderma" is being touted as the answer to botrytis.
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I am just catching up on older posts and was drawn to this product called 'Garlic Wonder' and have ordered some from Amazon.
I used to bubble up my own concoction but the smell in the kitchen was just too much! I generally use it to deter slugs from the early growth on my daylilies but recently growers have been recommending it for deterring daylily gall midge which is a real pest.
I am wondering if it would be worth spraying the snowdrops once the flowers are over and just as the Narcissus Fly are around - which I gather will be earlier this year? The trouble is - once it rains it gets washed off.
Alan - did you work out a dilution rate and what are you using yours to prevent (hopefully) ? :)
Jennie
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A few years ago I had a problem with Stagonospora curtisii which spread quite rapidly through a densely-planted snowdrop bed so that two years after I first noticed a few infected plants I had to rescue the remaining snowdrops into pots. I also have a problem with swift moth larvae which added to the number of fatalities.
I still have a few isolated pots with bulbs that have a low-grade infection. I have attached a photograph (taken in haste so not very good quality) which shows unpleasant brown marks on the bulb, the top of the outer scales missing and somewhat reduced root growth. But the bulb still manages to produce leaves from one year to the next so I am looking for something that will cure the bulb completely and might be used to combat any future infections. In the end I just followed the instructions on the Garlic Wonder bottle and diluted it 10:1. In this instance I sprayed the leaves, bulb and roots before repotting in fresh compost. Since I had made up 500 ml, I also tried spraying the leaves of some of my other healthy snowdrops as a preventative precaution.
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Alan
I too have had to battle various bulb infection problems. As members may recall I had a major programme in the spring involving the raising, treating and replanting of around 400 varieties. Not an exercise to be done too often! My approach was to dig the bulbs up, strip off the infected outer scales (even though that may mean drastically reducing the size of the bulb - I think I followed advice from Martin or someone else who knew what they were doing) soak the remaining bulbs for at least two days in a mixture of strong disinfectant and fungicide, and then replant them in fresh potting mix in a lattice pot. The site from which they came gets a drench of similar mixture and then left empty of snowdrops. The lattice pots went back in the ground in fresh sites.
I don't know but guess that probably Matt B may have faced a similar exercise a few years ago when he had problems with stag. I have written to Matt because it would be really instructive to have his comments on this topic.
I think the scale stripping has to be fairly ruthless even if one is only left with a pretty thin central "stalk". The reduced size treated bulbs obviously need to be cosseted with a feeding regime to support their growth after their near death experience. Throwing away the bulbs is obviously an option of last resort, to be avoided if possible if the variety is a rare or valuable one.
The result has been visible control of the stag browning, at the cost of weaker growth from the reduced size bulbs. Its not a complete 100% effective cure; most of the treated pots show healthy growth, but a minority still show ill-health, and may need repeat treatment. Another result is that the growth of the treated bulbs is checked for about five or six weeks.
As I have posted previously, I also have a routine of preventative spraying of the snowdrops in growth and when dormant with strong disinfectant.
I would be interested to hear whether your approach of leaving the marked scales on and treating with jungle juice does seem to do the trick and over what period.
The two native English snowdrops (nivalis and flore pleno) seem by comparison to be as tough as old boots, and there is probably a decent research project to be had by some bright young botanist into how the newer galanthus hybrids are more prone to disease, and which are more susceptible. For example, are the yellows or limey yellows more liable to disease and more difficult to grow healthily than others? Maybe the Snowdrops 2 book will carry this discussion forward.
Steve
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I am wondering if it would be worth spraying the snowdrops once the flowers are over and just as the Narcissus Fly are around - which I gather will be earlier this year?
the fly is never very early in UK/Ireland
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I am just catching up on older posts and was drawn to this product called 'Garlic Wonder' and have ordered some from Amazon.
I used to bubble up my own concoction but the smell in the kitchen was just too much! I generally use it to deter slugs from the early growth on my daylilies but recently growers have been recommending it for deterring daylily gall midge which is a real pest.
I am wondering if it would be worth spraying the snowdrops once the flowers are over and just as the Narcissus Fly are around - which I gather will be earlier this year? The trouble is - once it rains it gets washed off.
Alan - did you work out a dilution rate and what are you using yours to prevent (hopefully) ? :)
Jennie
Jennie
Are you thinking that the smell of garlic will mask the "smell" of the snowdrops and so prevent problems? That would be my assumption, and if correct it is likely that a raw and unprocessed garlic would be more effective than a dried preparation, it will be smellier. You could try one of the "easy garlic" purees from the supermarket diluted and watered into the soil around the drops. Unlikely to do any harm (in my opinion) :)
Chris
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I am just catching up on older posts and was drawn to this product called 'Garlic Wonder' and have ordered some from Amazon.
I used to bubble up my own concoction but the smell in the kitchen was just too much! I generally use it to deter slugs from the early growth on my daylilies but recently growers have been recommending it for deterring daylily gall midge which is a real pest.
I am wondering if it would be worth spraying the snowdrops once the flowers are over and just as the Narcissus Fly are around - which I gather will be earlier this year? The trouble is - once it rains it gets washed off.
Alan - did you work out a dilution rate and what are you using yours to prevent (hopefully) ? :)
Jennie
Jennie
Are you thinking that the smell of garlic will mask the "smell" of the snowdrops and so prevent problems? That would be my assumption, and if correct it is likely that a raw and unprocessed garlic would be more effective than a dried preparation, it will be smellier. You could try one of the "easy garlic" purees from the supermarket diluted and watered into the soil around the drops. Unlikely to do any harm (in my opinion) :)
Chris
or could you not plant your snowdrops with an allium that comes into leaf as the snowdrops are finishing flowering as to mask the smell as well.Companion planting is used to deal with other pests.
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I thought I would record a note of various treatments that are commercially available for garden use I have tried to ward-off or prevent ill-health in snowdrops. I have not conducted any sort of controlled trials so it is difficult to say what, if anything, is effective but in one instance I noticed an adverse reaction which I think is worth recording.
Treatments are as follows:
1. “Natures Answer Natural pest and Disease Control” manufactured by The Scotts Company (UK) Ltd.
Sold as an insecticide and fungicide this is a spray containing sulphur in fatty acids. I have used this for about 8 years to spray snowdrop bulbs when re-potting, particularly bulbs showing signs of ill-health or damage. I’m not sure if this does any good but I have used it enough to be confident it does not do any harm.
2. “Citrox” Manufactured by Agralan
This is sold as a disinfectant that if safe for use with plants. I used the concentrate “Citrox P” which you dilute 150:1 with water to treat bulbs when re-potting but ran into problems. I tried soaking the bulb and roots, in some instances overnight before potting-up the following day. But I found those plants that had a prolonged exposure to Citrox during February 2011 became flaccid and died-back prematurely in March. Other bulbs left overnight in tap water did not suffer.
3. “akTRIvator” manufactured by Canna, Holland.
This is a water-soluble powder containing Trichoderma Harzianum fungus. Sold as an aid to the development and root growth of cuttings it is supposed to suppress other fungi, specifically botrytis. I treated many of my snowdrops with a small quantity of this in 2011 without any apparent harm. I have never had a problem with botrytis (thank heavens) so I don’t know if it does any good.
4. “Garlic Wonder” manufactured by Aston Horticulture.
Sold as a “plant stimulant” containing “natural garlic juice” you are instructed to dilute 1:10 with water and apply as a spray. I am trialling this in 2012 following suggestions that garlic preparations may be effective against Stagonospora curtisii.
All the above are commercially available in the UK; although probably not from your local garden centre. I would be interested to hear if anyone else has tried these products or had success with others (preferably excluding those that are now banned or only available for agricultural use).
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Alan can you tell me at what time of year you used the Trichoderma? Just wondering if it is more effective at certain times of the year
I did purchase a small amount last year ,but as yet have not used it
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I used it in February and March, which was probably wrong because I'm not sure the temperature at that time of year is warm enough for it to thrive. On the other hand, if it's warm enough for botrytis then maybe it's warm enough for Trichoderma.
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I used it in February and March, which was probably wrong because I'm not sure the temperature at that time of year is warm enough for it to thrive. On the other hand, if it's warm enough for botrytis then maybe it's warm enough for Trichoderma.
It's warm enough this year.
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Funny you should mention companion planting with Alliums as that is exactly what the daylily society is suggesting as a preventative for gall midge. Many people who have planted Alliums among their daylilies have noticed a reduction in gall midge attack. However, all my snowdrops are now being planted under deciduous trees so I don't think an Allium would flower very well under those conditions.
When I have sprayed daylily foliage in the past with the garlic solution they seem to look healthier. I think garlic is a good feed for most plants - it may be different for bulbs?
Good luck with your trial Alan. Let us all know how you get on. I prefer to go organic wherever possible.
Jennie
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Some years ago, more by accident than design, I grew some damaged snowdrops in a pot alongside some small weedy white bulbs in the Allium family. The snowdrops thrived and made a full recovery but these Alliums would probably out-compete the snowdrops if left to their own devices.
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Thanks for this info Alan.
Does anyone know if Neem Oil detrimental to snowdrops?
I grow quite a few of my snowdrops around & under climbing roses & have been advised to spray my roses with Neem to control disease.
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Ha ha Alan,
I just spotted this thread and assumed that at last there was a treatment for my galanthomania so I would therefore be able to save a fortune this year ;D ;D
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Last year in desperation I used PRAVADO Ultimate Bug Spray in a ready made spray bottle. I sprayed all the foliage of the snowdrops (and a couple of Lilium that were emerging). I made sure the flowers were over so I would not be killing any bees or other insects - although I am sure a few still got killed :'(
The Lilium did not get any Lily Beetle last year except the Martagons that I forgot to spray. They say one quick spray is enough to last the season.
The idea was to deter/kill NF grubs and possibly Swift Moth caterpillars as it is a systemic. It is a nasty toxic spray containing tiacloprid and should be used with care.
Jennie
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Jo, I think the best cure for galanthomania is to take yourself off somewhere tropical (or semi-tropical) for the month of February. Of course that's not necessarily going to save yourself a fortune, you'll just be spending it somewhere else.
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Jennie, interesting idea to use a systemic insecticide in the hope that it lasts-out the year. Has anyone else tried this?
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It was recommended to me by 'ombersleyplants' on ebay after I loss the Boyd's Double that I bought from him.
He says it works ??? Time will tell. I must admit it was too much to spray them all in one go and I lost track of which ones I had sprayed so many got missed.
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Provado (Intercept in Canada) seems to work well if applied as a drench here in mid March, that's about 9-10 weeks before the leaves die down. One must keep the mix evenly moist for 10 days afterwards.
Neem is not so successful here, it seems to work best in warm summer climates. So I guess for NBF the temperatures would be too low at that time of year to have much if, any, effect.
johnw - -2c at 8:12 am
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Johnw, so you are drenching the soil whilst Jennie is spraying the leaves? Is this to combat narcissus fly or do you suffer from some other insect predator?
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Johnw, so you are drenching the soil whilst Jennie is spraying the leaves? Is this to combat narcissus fly or do you suffer from some other insect predator?
Alan - re: imidichloprid
For NBF. I think the bulbs will uptake more by drenching. The amount absorbed is surely less when the foliar is sprayed. Having said that if you are speaking of bulbs outdoors foliar spraying may be the way to go as it is difficult to get a 10 day Spring stretch without rain.
johnw
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I chose the foliar spray as I dislike drenching the soil with anything toxic.
Believe me, it took a lot for me to even foliar spray but love my snowdrops so had to try something :)
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Yes, I have tried once, not on the Snowdrops, but on a Clematis alpina, which was in the pot, to see if I could protect it from the clematis leaves stekel (Rhadinoceraea ventralis). It did not work.
Maybe I sprayed too little.
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This is another method I tried to stop the NF getting to my most expensive ones. I used old metal hanging baskets and sewed shading cloth around them (net curtains could be used & possibly dyed green or brown?!) - they would be easier to sew.
I then bent some metal into hooks and pinned the basket in place. It does make the garden look a bit like the land of Telly Tubbies but it seems to have done the trick on the ones I covered up.
I will be doing it again this year on new expensive ones that are single bulbs as they seem the most vulnerable. I also use these baskets with or without net over newly planted snowdrops to stop the creatures of the night digging them up as they seem to love freshly dug soil. So far that has worked a treat too.
Jennie
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I used to use imidichloroprid against swift moth caterpillars that infested hellebores on the nursery. It was very effective, but also very expensive and long winded to apply pot by pot. Using it on freshly planted very special snowdrops does seem a good idea because these do seem especially vulnerable to swift moth and narcissus fly. But I like Jennie's idea with woven netting, clever and simple and protects fresh plantings from rabbits which seem to love digging around loose soil where something new has been planted!
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Provado is a trade name for Imidacloprid in which case Tim can vouch for its effectiveness against Swift Moth larvae and Jennie can (I presume) testify that the snowdrops she treated with it last year have come back, in which case we have evidence that it is safe for snowdrop use. Imidacloprid is said to have low toxicity towards mammals but is highly toxic towards bees (which, as an insecticide, is hardly surprising). As I have a major problem with swift moth larvae I am very tempted to try this treatment late in the snowdrop season.
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A small group of Boyd's Double (or Boyd's Green Horror if you prefer) growing in the ground were showing browned tips, so up they came, soil off, washed and examined. No sign whatever of stag on the bulbs - all six were clean under the tunic - but four of the six had either noticeably brown tips or, where they had grown slightly more, brown edges to the top of the split sheath. So maybe not stag after all.
Anyway, they've been soaked in jungle juice and potted in clean JI + grit in a lattice pot, and into the infirmary where I can check them regularly. The remainder of my collection are going to come out of the ground and receive this treatment, starting in May. At least I broke the back of the job in 2011. I wish I'd started like this ten years ago.
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A small group of Boyd's Double (or Boyd's Green Horror if you prefer) growing in the ground were showing browned tips, so up they came, soil off, washed and examined. No sign whatever of stag on the bulbs - all six were clean under the tunic - but four of the six had either noticeably brown tips or, where they had grown slightly more, brown edges to the top of the split sheath. So maybe not stag after all.
Anyway, they've been soaked in jungle juice and potted in clean JI + grit in a lattice pot, and into the infirmary where I can check them regularly. The remainder of my collection are going to come out of the ground and receive this treatment, starting in May. At least I broke the back of the job in 2011. I wish I'd started like this ten years ago.
Could this have been due to the early root growth with lack of water this winter?
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Davey
Don't know. Just one of the many mysteries on the long march to growing snowdrops healthily.
Steve
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I wish that as many members as possible would post really good photos of stag infected snowdrops so others could get a good idea of the symptoms. I know there have already been some photos but the more the merrier. If this comes to my garden, I want to be able to ID it immediately and probably dispose of the infected plant (unless it is the only one I have).
With reference to johnw's comment about slugs on hostas. I specialize in hostas at my nursery, and I find that the more toxic chemicals gardeners use to eliminate slugs, the more slug damage they have. I theorize that this is because the slugs are attracted to plants weakened by chemicals and "natural controls" for slugs are damaged by the chemicals. I run my whole nursery, display gardens, and production beds where I grow plants in the ground to sell, organically and am hardly bothered by any pests or diseases. I will now need to find wood to knock on. I think this is relevant to the garlic discussion, which sounds like a great alternative to some of the nasty fungicides people have mentioned.
Jennie--Allium 'Purple Sensation' will grow and flower in dappled shade so would be good to try with snowdrops.
Carolyn
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Do you grow miniature Hostas also?
Stag infections can be simply paler leaves with kinks usually to one side. The kink may turn reddish or the leaf tips turn red
Is this a symptom? - flowers can abort and turn greyish in the spathe.
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Is this a symptom? - flowers can abort and turn greyish in the spathe.
Mark - I think I mentioned this problem some years ago and you said it was symptomatic of stag.
I would imagine if the plants in pots have gotten too dry that buds would be the first to go. I can confirm that it has been a precursor of stag here or at least indicating problems underground. I notice 'Alidah' (?) has aborted its flowers this year yet the bulbs were spic n' span in August. Hopefully they got too dry in my new mix, they will nevertheless get a good drench shortly.
By the way, what is Jungle Juice - the garlic extract?
johnw
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Do you grow miniature Hostas also?
Stag infections can be simply paler leaves with kinks usually to one side. The kink may turn reddish or the leaf tips turn red
Is this a symptom? - flowers can abort and turn greyish in the spathe.
Yes, I am growing more and more miniature hostas as that is the way that I think hostas are going. My customers simply do not have the room in their gardens for the really large hostas. I am particularly like the "Mouse Ears Series" but have many varieties. Carolyn
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I have all the Mouse/Mouses. Over here in N Iireland we a Hosta Specialist. I try not to visit too often
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With regards to stripping off the infected outer layers of bulbs, my stocks had this forced upon them last year. The damage by the hard winter, coupled with the freeze-thaw on uncovered baskets (only got the covers on the frames this winter) meant that most of the bulbs' outer scales had died and looked black and soggy when lifted dormant in the summer. Rubbing off the soggy layers under running water left lovely shiny white bulbs in most cases. But I did dose them with trichoderma before planting, and put the granules in the compost as well. There is little sign of stag on them so far, even the ones in the hospital bed which were isolated because they showed symptoms the previous year. I'm crossing my fingers as I type this.
see www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6697.0
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I have all the Mouse/Mouses. Over here in N Iireland we a Hosta Specialist. I try not to visit too often
If you like miniature hosta you might be interested in this: http://carolynsshadegardens.com/2011/05/09/miniature-small-hostas/ (http://carolynsshadegardens.com/2011/05/09/miniature-small-hostas/). It is my most popular blog post ever. Now back to snowdrops.... Carolyn
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Carolyn, thank you: I have thoroughly enjoyed reading that Hosta blog.... I have posted the link in the Miniature Hosta thread so the hosta lovers cannot miss it. :D
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I was recently researching some broad spectrum fungicides and came across one that includes protective and curative action against Stagonospora, at least the species that infect wheat and barley. Prosaro is a combination of tebuconazole and prothioconazole - http://www.bayercropscience.us/products/fungicides/prosaro/?WT.srch=1&WT.mc_id=g2004404a13. The individual active ingredients will also be active, as will other members of the generic azole class, to varying degrees. There are many brands other than Prosaro that contain either of these active ingredients, especially tebuconazole, and they are unrestricted chemicals as far as use in Pennsylvania goes.
Best,
John
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Yesterday I was attempting to take photographs when I noticed some tell-tale signs of stag on a few sunken lattice pots. Today I lifted the pots and about 10 other pots in the vicinity. The trouble is that this raised bed I made is about 100ft plus long interplanted with Ferns, Hellebores and Cyclamen. Some snowdrops are in lattice pots and others planted directly into the ground.
I have inspected one potful of David Shackleton and it did indeed have stag. I have peeled back the bulbs dramatically and they are now soaking in fungicide. Tomorrow I will check the others. This is the bed where I plant all my special snowdrops so its a bit of a nightmare.
I have scooped out at least a wheelbarrow of soil from the area but feel a bit out of my depth on what I should do?
I am cleaning all the tools with Jeyes Fluid, using disposable gloves, washing my clothes and keeping the victims in a greenhouse where there are no snowdrops. I do not want to drench the soil with Carbendazim as I do not have enough and it kills the worms.
Is anyone having any luck with Trichoderma with stag? I also found this one which could be mixed with potting soil - any views on this one?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/381160755229 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/381160755229)
How much soil should I take out of the bed? How fast does stag spread in the soil?
Any help and advice most gratefully accepted - thank you.
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I had stag. on some plants in a raised bed in 2009 which caused me to move all snowdrops in that bed into pots with fresh potting compost. I subsequently treated the bed and the compost in the pots with Trichoderma but did not remove any soil from the bed. I began repopulating the bed with snowdrops in 2013, adding more in 2014. So far the stag. has not recurred. But a number of the bulbs I had moved into pots did not ultimately survive. Quite a few seedlings arose in the bed whilst it was nominally empty. I moved these to pots and they remained healthy.
The only stag. I have had since is on a bulb I got last year (and only obvious this year). Since I kept the bulb in a pot and placed the pot in 'quarantine', I'm hopeful it will not spread.
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Thanks for your comments Alan. It is good to hear that you managed to salvage some of your bulbs from the epidemic. I will not plant snowdrops back in that spot but will refresh the soil and plant several Ferns or Hellebores.
I have been wondering what happens to the Trichoderma and/or Mycorrhizal fungi when the snowdrops shed their roots? Does the Trichoderma continue to live in the soil or does it die?
Does anyone know what temperature it needs to be for the Trichoderma to become active?
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The other thing I should have mentioned is that I repot anything that arrives in a pot towards the end of the season or whilst dormant. It then has to pass the following year in a pot and before the bulbs go in the ground. I clean off any dead outer casing and the bulbs must look pristine white to qualify for the garden.
The one that has stag. this year looked in poor shape when I repotted it last year so went straight into my sickbay area.
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And don't forget the Trichoderma topic here: http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6697.0 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6697.0)
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Definitely worth trying trichoderma, but it needs about 10C before it can survive, and will die if it dries out. You'll need to apply it later on when the soil temp is higher, and reapply each year. I will be ordering some this spring if you want to share.
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Oh dear Jennie, you really have had a run of terrible luck in the past few years. I hope you manage to salvage most of your specials. As I am sure you know but the link was to mychorriza and not Trichoderma. They are very different and are probably best not mixed, it is the Trichoderma that you want.
Fingers crossed for you.
Chris
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stag is on some new bulbs purchased in England last week. Bulbs but not the leaves
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I have spent most of today washing, peeling back bulbs and fungiciding. I don't like peeling the bulb layers back when they are soft like they are at the moment - they seem too vulnerable.
Tomorrow they will be potted and quarantined in the greenhouse for now until I can think of somewhere to put them??! I will spray the foliage with fungicide too and then give weak feeds until they die down.
Some cultivars in the area seemed unaffected by the stag but many were munched away to the core by presumably swift moth larvae - they are a mess. But, so far no signs of Narcissus Fly damage. This new bed looks so lovely above ground and all my 'single' bulbs were finally making clumps......but below the surface is another story :'(
Thanks for your comments and assistance everyone and I am sure many people are learning from this too.
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Instead of the London Show - this is how I spent my day. Fungiciding, repotting, finding new bulbs eaten by Swift Moth larvae, sowing mesh onto old hanging baskets. It seems I am slowly digging everything up and potting them - I did not want to grow snowdrops in pots but in the borders. Am getting very disheartened here :'(
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I posted the same photo twice - meant to post the close up of Sibbertoft White. It is amazing how the bulbs are trying to regenerate. They are the fortunate ones....three cultivars in this spot was wiped out and all I found was the larvae....all fat and plump :'(
I was so peed off by the time I came indoors that I made some comfort food - a steamed coconut pudding with raspberry jam, custard and cream. Felt a bit better :)
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Definitely worth trying trichoderma, but it needs about 10C before it can survive, and will die if it dries out. You'll need to apply it later on when the soil temp is higher, and reapply each year. I will be ordering some this spring if you want to share.
Thanks for that info Anne. It will be a while before the soil reaches 50F (10C) - I wanted to get on with it now! If I water my potted bulbs with it there is a good chance it will die as I put the coldframe lids down in the summer so the bulbs don't get too wet.....what a dilemma.
Which one do you get Anne and which size? Does it work out cheaper to buy bigger amounts? Thanks for your help. I am starting to wonder if my garden soil is suitable for snowdrops at all - feel like I am fighting a losing battle.
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Here I am in the early hours Googling Swift Moth and their larvae. The eggs are laid in flight as Alan mentioned in another post and they are 0.5mm x 0.7mm - so I am trying to measure the size of my mesh to see if the eggs could drop through !! The larvae live in the soil for up to 2 years....just feeding and feeding :'(
Here is an article:-
http://www.donsgarden.co.uk/pests/538 (http://www.donsgarden.co.uk/pests/538)
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Hi Jennie
Sorry to hear of your woes, especially as there is no sensible control. That is a very good article you have made reference to and I would emphasise that they prefer dense cover such as lawns and herbaceous borders rather than sporadic planting. Swifts belong to the Hepialidae family; primitive moths with no feeding apparatus. They live just long enough to reproduce.
Apart from the Common Swift your other main adversary is the Ghost Moth (images attached). The male is smaller and white (with a fine hair-do). Also pictured is a fully grown larvae of the Map-winged Swift but yours will be similar.
Love the comfort food, I can almost taste it. 8)
Chris
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An excellent link Jennie, thanks I've just looked up Botrytis :'(
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Thanks Chris for your info on the moths....i do believe i may also have the Ghost Moth as the larvae was huge :( We have a very big garden here just full of insects and moths and as i try to garden very organically....they all thrive!
Sorry about the botrytis Brian - i have had that in the past and no doubt will get it again this year the way my season is going.
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Sorry about the botrytis Brian - i have had that in the past and no doubt will get it again this year the way my season is going.
Such is life, but a lot is down to the weather we have had, ideal conditions I am told. Dear old David Quinton used to get it a lot and I always think of him when I hear of it.
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I'm a bit surprised no one has mentioned the article by Robin White of Blackthorn in the most recent AGS Journal. Robin suggests peroxyacetic acid as a drench and the mixing rate is shown. Also known as peracetic acid it is sold by home brewing establishments. A friend is going to contact Robin on a few more specifics, I wonder if it could be used as a pot drench as well.
johnw
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I have just (reluctantly) joined the AGS because I want access to their February snowdrop event. I skimmed through a copy of their March journal (which is the only one I have) but did not find the article you mentioned, John. Was I looking in the right place?
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Alan - its on page 9 of the March issue. Any advice from Robin is worth taking notice of! Hope you won't be so reluctant after a year; a lot of good things about the Journal - notably Robert Rolfe's tribute to Jim Archibald which may help [along with the archive on this website] to put plant-hunters and seed collectors, and specialist nurseries, into the proper place of value they have and deserve in the horticultural world.
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........ a lot of good things about the Journal - notably Robert Rolfe's tribute to Jim Archibald which may put plant-hunters and seed collectors, and specialist nurseries, into the proper place of value they have and deserve in the horticultural world.
A pity that no mention is made in that article to the Archibald Archive though, which exists to have a permanent tribute to the man and his work and that the article cannot be shared to the Archive. It makes the talk of remembrance and wider audiences ring a bit thin to my mind.
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Hope you won't be so reluctant after a year; a lot of good things about the Journal ...
Thanks for the specific page, Tim. My reluctance stems mainly from the fact that I seem to be in rather a lot of societies that have overlapping fields of interest but all requiring an annual subscription. If it was down to me these societies would be merged.
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..............If it was down to me these societies would be merged.
Vive la difference (with a twiddly bit over the first 'e' that I can't do ), nay thrice.
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Maggi - I agree with you. Maybe there is an opportunity for this to be mentioned in a future Journal? I've belonged to the AGS since 1978 and would like to see more people growing alpines (and have an entire set of Bulletins which gives me an historical perspective - i.e. I have read most of them!). David has it right and there is always value in making reference to source information and the Archibald archive is a superb resource, especially for those of us who knew Jim and corresponded with him. (I was making a general point).
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Vive la difference ...
If I could tell la difference I might vive it but all these societies seem way too similar to me. For example, what do you grow in a Cottage Garden? Hardy Plants! So why on earth do we need a society for each? And if you like bulbs, as I do, we don't have an Atlantic Bulb Society so it's a complete free-for-all in the UK with every plant society under the sun laying claim to bulbs.
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I suppose you 'pays your money and makes your choice'. (And objectively you are probably right Alan but you won't find much support for the idea!). A lot depends on whether you have been involved in running societies either on the larger or smaller scale, and to be honest the close and friendly relationships you make with other people which enlarge your view of the world. And how much you wish to contribute to them or just enjoy what they provide. (Not a lot to do with Stagonospora! on this thread - my apologies).
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I too would welcome a little more detail about using peracetic acid to prevent/combat Stagonospora curtisii. Having read Robin's letter in the AGS journal and having one or two suspicious lesions on plants (yes please - 'good' photos of typical symptoms would be a great help) I have obtained a small bottle of the chemical. The sentence I am interested in reads 'a 5% solution of peracetic acid diluted in water to a concentration of 1: 200 can be used to soak bulbs for up to 1 hour but a stronger solution for a shorter time can be used to treat infected bulbs' (my italics). How much stronger/shorter please?
The chemical is clearly nasty stuff; my local home brew store had no licence for it but a local landlord approached a brewery that supplies his pub. Assurance was required that I knew what I was doing (the science degree sorted that) and the bottle is covered in hazard labels. I'll be using thick gloves and a visor.
Quite what the drinkers in the local made of the audible murmur 'I'll have your supply of acid for you on Friday' remains to be seen!
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The other issue is whether the treatment has some specific action on the Stagonospora or just kills-off the exterior parts of the bulb that are affected by it. Steve Owen advocates stripping a bulb down to healthy tissue, even if that leaves little remaining, on the basis that radical treatment is effective and the bulb will grow back to normal size in due course.
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The chemical is clearly nasty stuff;...................... Quite what the drinkers in the local made of the audible murmur 'I'll have your supply of acid for you on Friday' remains to be seen!
Derryclare
Just how nasty?
I also wonder if tunics should be removed. As in the hot water treatment as per Hippeastrum I wonder if for smaller Galanthus one should adjust both concentration and time according the size.
No word back yet.
johnw
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Thank you for your responses and interesting suggestions. In answer to Johnw, it is nasty enough for it to have a specific licence. I only know what is mentioned on the web as I have retired and no longer have access to CLEAPSS information. Wiki lists a range of hazards ranging from skin irritation (another site mentions peeling of skin on contact) to respiratory damage (I do not intend to use it indoors). I will certainly want to try it first on a straight G nivalis rather than a named cultivar in case of damage to the bulb tissue. I do like the fact that it will break down to harmless oxygen, acetic acid, water and carbon dioxide rather than lingering as a toxic molecule as some of the fungicides do.
I really hope that some of the other SRGC contributors will be able to give details of use on Galanthus. For now my small bottle can sit safely in a locked outbuilding.
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Toxic chemicals are in plants too! Ironically chemicals from plants are more likely to be toxic, or at least biologically active, than man made 'synthetic' chemicals.
Thi; http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3758431?uid=3737536&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21106495428553 (http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3758431?uid=3737536&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21106495428553) was published back in the 70's and looks like a good little article. I haven't got access to the full article at home; I'll have to wait til I get to work on Monday and have a read. There are a bunch of papers on garlic's anti-fungal properties. Most of them seem to be medical, dealing with dermatitis.
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I was a bit nervous about these leaf symptoms on a group of 'Trumps'. I first noticed it at the start of April and thought it might well be indicative of Stag. So I dug the clump up today but the bulbs themselves cleaned up to be absolutely pristine. Was I worrying over nothing?
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I've collected a number of previous threads on this subject here - I was moved to do so by a recent conversation I saw ......
Q: Does stag cause snowdrop flowers to abort and turn to a brown mush in the spathe?
A: Yes it can do but the major sign is reddish brown marks on the leaves and scapes plus difformed leaves. Sweeten up your soil with extra humus and Trichoderma harzianum mycorhiza!
And use less fertiliser then.
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the major sign is reddish brown marks on the leaves and scapes plus deformed leaves.
Whilst this is quite true, if you dig the bulbs up and remove any dead outer tunic you will find that Stag.-infected bulbs show signs of rot and discolouration. I think it's reddish-brown again but I'm a bit too colour-blind to state this with any authority. But my point is that whilst you might see signs above ground, it's that state of the bulbs that clinches it.
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Stagonospora also has a very distinctive smell. Not a pleasant one either!
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really? like what? How do you know? Maybe we could train labradors to sniff them out
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Maybe we could train labradors to sniff them out
Sorry, Mark, I already suggested this idea (well dogs anyway). Maybe Emma could train her Frenchies to make themselves useful?
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Stagonospora also has a very distinctive smell. Not a pleasant one either!
Steve - is it an intense oniony sort of smell?!
I am plagued with Stag and was peeling back a bulb of Sentinel tonight and noticed it had a very strong smell. Every time I go outside to take photos I end up spotting problems in the pots or beds hence you have not heard much from me this year on this forum. I am starting to wonder if I am imagining Stag now and have just become completely paranoid. At the end of my tether and getting so fed up with it. :'( My old stash of Carbendazim is running very low now - what is everyone else using?
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I am plagued with Stag . . . . My old stash of Carbendazim is running very low now - what is everyone else using?
I use a natural bacterium called Streptomyces lydicus with amazing success. (Sold as Actinovate in the US.) On heavily infected test bulbs, it ate away the dead and dying tissue containing the stag. It was explained to me that it works like maggots used to treat gangrene - it out eats the other bacterium - feeding only on dead or dying tissue.
When repotted in August the top part of each bulb had grown a brown skin attached in the middle to the remaining scarred, unskinned scale connected to the bulb plate. No, I didn't think to take a photo ???.
Some nurseries here (Washington State) use is as their main fungicide. It's approved for organic gardening here. Sorry if this sounds like an advertisement, but it saved many rare galanthus and narcissus for me.
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If I read this correctly, as of 18 June 2015 Streptomyces lydicus WYEC 108 does not appear to be approved for use in any country within the European Union http://sitem.herts.ac.uk/aeru/bpdb/Reports/2032.htm#none. (http://sitem.herts.ac.uk/aeru/bpdb/Reports/2032.htm#none.)
But this http://cedrec.com/whats-new/summary/european/regulation/20668/20670_s.htm (http://cedrec.com/whats-new/summary/european/regulation/20668/20670_s.htm) seems to indicate some form of approval.
JimF, how exactly do you treat the infected bulbs?
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That's not how I read that page, Alan - there are no reports of EU use, but the info states that it is approved .....
Description: A natural component of soil microflora that may be used to control fungal diseases and some bacteria in a wide range of vegetables, herb and ornamental crops
Availability status: Current
Introduction & key dates: 1943, First described
Taxonomic classification: Class: Actinobacteria; Order: Actinomycetales; Family: Noctuoidea
EC Regulation 1107/2009 (repealing 91/414):
Status Approved
Dossier rapporteur/co-rapporteur Netherlands
Date inclusion expires 31/12/2024
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Other links of interest:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC167587/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC167587/)
http://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/reg_actions/registration/fs_PC-006327_25-Nov-09.pdf (http://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/reg_actions/registration/fs_PC-006327_25-Nov-09.pdf)
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/biopest-biocont/biofung/strepto_lydic/actinov_reg_0305.html (http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/biopest-biocont/biofung/strepto_lydic/actinov_reg_0305.html)
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Jim - Can you tell us the strength of the Actinovate that you used as well as the mix rate and method of application. Sounds very promising. I see the shelf life is max. 6 months stored at 5c.
Is it still sold in the USA by Natural Industries in 2oz. foil ziplocks?
john
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For those of you who have not seen stag here it is on an imported Hippeastrum from Holland. All imports seem to affected to some extent and how they pass the Canadian inspectors is beyond me, until they are refused entry and sent back to Holland this disease will not be addressed in that country.
You can see it is eating away at the the bulb scales, yet it makes little headway on big bulbs like these though leaves & flower stalks eventually get badly afflicted with red streaks or spotting and sometimes causes the stalks to flag. Much more devastating is its effect on small bulbs in the Amaryllidaceae like Galanthus where the red quickly turns to a sickly nicotine colour.
In the meantime keep these imports out of homes and gardens, it may be a first step in preventing yet more stag about.
john
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JimF - Thanks so much for the information about Actinovate - it sounds wonderful. I am sure you have forum readers googling like crazy trying to find out where to buy it !! So far I have seen it on Amazon USA for $21 for 2 oz and Amazon UK for anything up to £311 for 2 oz !! I must calm down and do some proper research.
Just the thought of something natural that will eat away the stag from the bulbs just sounds too good to be true :D
Has anyone found it for sale in UK yet?
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JimF, how exactly do you treat the infected bulbs?
I follow the directions (not metric) using 2.5 teaspoon in a 5 gallon bucket of water. Using a small watering can, I dip out water from the bucket to water each pot to just full saturation at initial potting, then 2-3 times during the growing season.
Directions recommend use more often, but I don't, in part because of the expense (nothing like your prices, however!) and in part because of our heavy winter rains - the soil is often too saturated. On a sunny week I'll apply the solution just to light saturation. (I grow all my plants in pots in the open.)
When the rains ease off and I see the plants preparing to go dormant (April), I'll give another thorough soak of the solution. I want the plants to go into dormancy with a good dose of the Strep.
I store all dormant plants in a garage until repotting in August or first growth in autumn or winter, then bring them outdoors to start the cycle again.
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Jim - Can you tell us the strength of the Actinovate that you used as well as the mix rate and method of application. Sounds very promising. I see the shelf life is max. 6 months stored at 5c.
Is it still sold in the USA by Natural Industries in 2oz. foil ziplocks?
john
See previous answer for mix rate and method of application.
I use Natural Industries' product with .0371% of Strep. lyc. It does come in a 2 oz./56 gram zip lock pouch and larger sizes.
I didn't notice the shelf life, but with other "living" products in the horticultural trade the shelf life, like groceries, can often be much longer when stored properly. I now see I should probably store it in cooler conditions.
Galanthus bulbs, too, come from large international growers/suppliers infected with stag. The Amaryllis (Hippeastrum) bulbs are horribly infected, as you show so well. As a bulb buyer for a retail nursery, I have been told many times by international wholesale suppliers that they are not concerned about stag on Amy/Hipps because "it doesn't kill them"! Galanthus are of even lower concern. (I hear all those collective gasps!)
Jim
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Description: A natural component of soil microflora that may be used to control fungal diseases and some bacteria in a wide range of vegetables, herb and ornamental crops
Availability status: Current
Introduction & key dates: 1943, First described
Taxonomic classification: Class: Actinobacteria; Order: Actinomycetales; Family: Noctuoidea
EC Regulation 1107/2009 (repealing 91/414):
Status Approved
Dossier rapporteur/co-rapporteur Netherlands
Date inclusion expires 31/12/2024
http://news.agropages.com/News/NewsDetail---12993.htm (http://news.agropages.com/News/NewsDetail---12993.htm) -EU approval - but only for professional use?
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Jim - Thanks. Guess we're luckier than you as all the Galanthus from Holland arrive dead ;), in storage too long.
I too did the buying.. and here's what the Hippeastrums looked like one year, they must have had a cool wet growing season as the stag is rampant. One can see that it can do a number on even big bulbs, little wonder it's so destructive on Galanthus. I sent these pix to the growers and got the same response as you did. Only a continent-wide boycott would change things.
john
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I am sure I read somewhere today that the bacterium Streptomyces lydicus was originally from England. I have tried to buy on Amazon.com and have it imported but it is not allowed. It looks like this product is going to be hard to get our hands on ???
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You appear to be able to get it on Amazon:http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B00EXLAAKM/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=all (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B00EXLAAKM/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=all)
I seem to have just ordered some...
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You appear to be able to get it on Amazon:http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B00EXLAAKM/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=all (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B00EXLAAKM/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=all)
I seem to have just ordered some...
At five times the price here! :o
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About the price of a middle-of-the-road snowdrop.....
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:-[
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I've been fortunate enough to be able to use Actinovate this past season with three applications since the first autumn storm. I'm afraid I've not conducted any controlled trials and have also changed other aspects of my cultivation regime (i.e. replacing the grit in my potting mix with perlite). However, anecdotally I have noticed a much lower incidence of brown tips on my Narcissus and generally stronger growth. As I say, nothing scientific, but something is definitely better.
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About the price of a middle-of-the-road snowdrop.....
That is true Anne and it will make gallons of mix ;) I wonder if it will kill the Mychorrizal mix we use or vice versa? I think I will order some too as I am at my wits end and found 6 more staggy pots today in the grit plunge along with other healthy looking pots. Now I just don't know what to do and have started taking pots out of the plunge and separating iffy looking ones.
Can you 'cleanse' grit of stag? It cost me a small fortune for all that grit :'(
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(i.e. replacing the grit in my potting mix with perlite).
Matt - I quite like the sound of using Perlite instead of grit as the mix gets very heavy when wet. I am pleased to hear you are seeing some positive results with the Actinovate, even if its only that they look better. I am going to bite the bullet and buy some and try to take some photos of before and after. The trouble is I have been using Carbendazim fungicide as a spray and drench and never marked the pots - I am guessing the fungicide will kill the natural bacterium?
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Can you 'cleanse' grit of stag? It cost me a small fortune for all that grit :'(
I would have thought that putting it in a large pan of water and bringing to the boil or in the oven at over 100C should kill anything. But perhaps you have too much for that sort of piecemeal treatment?
If you trust eBay, this source of Actinovate is cheaper than the one on Amazon http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281124697358 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281124697358)
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By the way, the new name for Stag. is Peyronellaea curtisii. Pity about the 'e' because Pyro... would immediately bring to mind the burnt and scorched effect it causes on the leaves.
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Matt - I quite like the sound of using Perlite instead of grit as the mix gets very heavy when wet.
Hi Jennie, I made the change to perlite primarily because I felt that it would provide a lighter potting mix for my bulb collection - lighter in terms of weight as well as a warmer, fluffier, more airy growing medium. I was concerned that grit was contributing to a cold, wet mix, particularly in our very damp climate - the perlite retains air in the mix even when thoroughly wetted. I was worried about making such a drastic change to my method, but so far I cannot report any drawbacks and will continue to use perlite. My standard bulb mix is equal parts perlite, sharp gritty sand and good loam (JI#3 here) with a sprinkle of bonemeal. For snowdrops you might want to add one part organic matter (leaf mould if you have it) but my Galanthus are also doing very well in my standard mix. As this is a rather 'lean' mix, I feed all bulbs regularly - balanced feed early in the season, high potash after flowering onwards (both at half strength, monthly), also occasional doses of seaweed tonic and Actinovate.
...I am guessing the fungicide will kill the natural bacterium?
I would have thought that fungicides should be specific enough in their action that they do not affect bacteria (in the same way that antibiotics don't have an effect on a cold or flu virus), but don't take my word for it. A 2oz sachet has been more than enough for my modest collection - a little goes a long way.
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I would have thought that putting it in a large pan of water and bringing to the boil or in the oven at over 100C should kill anything. But perhaps you have too much for that sort of piecemeal treatment?
If you trust eBay, this source of Actinovate is cheaper than the one on Amazon http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281124697358 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281124697358)
FAR too much for that treatment Alan! Like 20-30 sacks of sharp grit and sand at GREAT expense because I thought it was a good move and would keep them safe while I found a piece of ground without swift moth to cover with net in the summer. I feel I take one step forward and twenty back :'( I wonder if Jeyes fluid would 'cleanse' the cold frame grit and sand? Why do they have to keep changing names although Peyroneaella sounds better than Stag !!
Alan I usually trust ebay but not with snowdrops! However that Actinovate is only 20 grams and not 2 oz which is a big difference.
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Steve Owen swears by Jeyes Fluid.
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Matt may be right about bacteria being unaffected although I couldn't say myself; what fungicide will generally do is take out the good with the bad - i.e. mycorrhizal fungi will be detrimentally affected (I presume this applies to Actinovate but please anyone advise if they know different). As these mycorrhizal fungi may be important to plant immunity, health and vigour (I am not sure when it comes to Galanthus but I don't see why they would differ particularly from other plants), I would be hesitant in applying anything with fungicidal action as a wholesale prophylactic (at least where there is not evidence of stag/ Peyronellaea or similar fungal pathogen in an important collection).
Free draining soil rich in organic matter seems to offer the most advantageous soil conditions to wild/ naturalised Galanthus so I try and replicate that with own homemade compost mixed with leaf mould and sharp sand (or just straight into the soil for some as I am on good free draining loam). No guarantee of course and I am very tempted to get hold of some Actinovate, especially as I currently have a commercial chemical fungicide for spraying/ dunking suspect bulbs.
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Josh - I live just up the road from you in West Kingsdown and my soil is very heavy clay with flint. I have spent 20 years amending most of the garden and found several areas in the garden where the snowdrops grew beautifully for years planted straight into the ground. Then last year I noticed several were diminishing and dug around and found they were being eaten out of existence by Swift Moth larvae. The more I dug....the more I found although I still have many in large clumps still growing in the ground.
So, by the time I finished digging clumps of the more expensive cultivars I ended up with many pots to look after. This was never the way I wanted to grow my snowdrops and now this year some of the pots have stag - it could be the wet weather we have had or it was there last year in its early stages and I never detected it. I intend to get rid of the soil they are growing in, clean up the bulbs the best I can, repot and wait for the Actinovate to arrive and will not fungicide anymore. ::)
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Maggie, Thank you so much for putting all the stag threads together. Dried elwesii bulbs from the Netherlands purchased last fall and thankfully grown in isolation in pots were completely stag ridden when they emerged now. I have never had this happen before but recognized it immediately from the forum posts. Disposed of the whole lot including the pots and the trays, 85 pots! I think I am done with dried, as opposed to dormant bulbs, because the risks are just too great.
Just ordered Actinovate on Amazon Prime for $21.00. Arriving Monday. Has anyone used Serenade, which is another organic fungicide made by Bayer?
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Just ordered Actinovate on Amazon Prime for $21.00. Arriving Monday. Has anyone used Serenade, which is another organic fungicide made by Bayer?
Carolyn, I was looking at Serenade last night online along with many other natural products. It seems most are only readily available in the USA - you are lucky as it costs 5 times the price to get them shipped to the UK.
What a shame about all your stag ridden bulbs - it is so distressing to have disease in the collection. I have thrown several bulbs in the rubbish this week but find it hard to bin the rarer ones I have collected although I feel quite tempted to be honest. From now on I will be more vigilant with new purchases and use natural products to try and protect them from disease. Keeping a large collection healthy is not easy ???
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.... Then last year I noticed several were diminishing and dug around and found they were being eaten out of existence by Swift Moth larvae. The more I dug....the more I found although I still have many in large clumps still growing in the ground.
So, by the time I finished digging clumps of the more expensive cultivars I ended up with many pots to look after. This was never the way I wanted to grow my snowdrops and now this year some of the pots have stag - it could be the wet weather we have had or it was there last year in its early stages and I never detected it.
Swift moth larvae burrow around under ground. Sometimes they will eat an entire bulb and sometimes they move on to another one. I don't know how they feel about a Stag.-infected bulb. Maybe the rotted parts don't taste good? Or perhaps the strong smell identifies the location of the bulb and attracts them? Potentially they could spread the infection around as they move about.
2009 was a very bad year for me. I had created a raised bed and put all my most precious snowdrops in it. In 2009 some of them failed to appear, a few had obvious symptoms of stag. and quite a few others started off okay then began to die-back mid season. Many of these had rotted foul-smelling bulbs and very few roots when I dug them up. In the end I evacuated everything into pots. But many of the sick snowdrops did not survive.
I let that bed lie fallow for three years. During that time quite a number of seedlings appeared but I moved them into pots. Since 2012 I have been slowly and cautiously repopulating that bed. I treated it with Trichoderma harzianum for the Stag. and 'Grow-your-own nematodes for the larvae. In later years I covered the entire bed with a fine insect mesh netting from the end of May to the end of August. I have not perceived any recurrence of either the Stag. or the larvae problem.
This year I had a yellow-flowered plicatus snowdrop resembling 'Wandlebury Ring' appear. It was close to where I used to have a bulb of that snowdrop which was last seen in 2008 and failed to show in 2009. So that is 8 years from one flower to the next. A photograph from 2014 shows that it was a single leaf then. Either it is a fortuitous seedling or a small portion of the bulb survived and eventually reconstituted itself over many years. So don't give up hope, Jennie.
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I would echo Alan's comments Jennie. And also consider investing your interest in other woodland plants than just snowdrops. It is inevitable that 'monocultures', often of snowdrops selected for looks rather long term garden adaptability will be vulnerable to disease, and we have certainly had similar problems to yours with swift moth caterpillars (they also attack hellebores and many other plants), and recently stagonospora (perhaps exascerbated by the very wet weather last autumn and winter like you say). To some extent the rather inflated value that is put on snowdrops is part of the problem - gardening should be an attempt to tune in to the vageries of the Natural World, not constantly try to hold these at bay. Of course the value also encourages nursery-people like ourselves to want to grow them! Quite a tension there. This thread is certainly useful to us becuse we are trying to build up populations in the garden and at the same time are observing more problems, but these are not restricted to just snowdrops!!
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...It is inevitable that 'monocultures', often of snowdrops selected for looks rather long term garden adaptability will be vulnerable to disease...
This certainly seems to be important. Rather than gathering all the most precious (costly?) ones together, spreading them around in and amongst other plants is a good idea. As well as splitting them up if/as soon as there are enough to plant in different areas so there is a back up. If you have the knack for growing them in pots, an ICU under cover can be useful to mollycoddle a few that need extra attention/protection. Any gardening venture is subject to setbacks, but the price of some snowdrops makes their loss all the more painful. Persevere Jennie and those that stay with you long term will be those you know to be good doers.
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I keep all my new snowdrops in large pots for at least two years before risking them in the garden or risking exposing the garden to any pests or diseases they might have had. By that time I hopefully have enough that I can split them to plant in two separate locations.
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'( I wonder if Jeyes fluid would 'cleanse' the cold frame grit and sand?
You bet.
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Thanks everyone for your positive comments - I will not give up as not only have I invested so much money in my collection but I also hate to give in to problems no matter how stressful they are ;)
Alan, the story of your raised bed is very interesting. I am impressed by your patience and method of eliminating the problem - well done! I was in the process of creating such a bed but was too impatient and introduced lattice pots with bulbs moved from other areas of the garden too soon. Several have shown signs of stag and now my bed has been contaminated :( I spent last night looking at the 'Grow your own Nematodes' you mentioned although I have to admit it all made me feel a bit queasy as I hate anything to do with parasites and predators. I am presuming you are using it in the hope it will kill caterpillars or cut worm? Would love to know if it actually killed any larvae.
Tim and Matt - I LOVE all woodland plants and have been creating beds using a wide variety of Primula, Erythronium, Hellebores, Ferns, Eranthis, Trillium, Lunaria and many other plants I have collected over the years. In between them I planted Galanthus in lattice pots so it was a varied display. Sadly, the rest of the woodland area which is huge has succumbed to neglect and is a mass of docks, nettles, thistles, brambles, dandelions etc and I am sure this is what attracted the Swift Moth. I was blissfully unaware and just thought I could slowly create new beds as the clearing job is massive.
I have other areas in the garden where I have tucked Galanthus directly into the soil among perennials and some have been growing here for 20 years with no problems. Some areas the soil is just too heavy - the soil varies around the garden.
In the coldframes they are all very close together so infection spreads quickly so I realise I need to water regularly with a product such as Actinovate to keep them in the best of health until I can begin to split them and plant around the garden always ensuring I have a back up bulb or two.
I have more idea of what I should do now and a plan is in order - now I just need some decent weather to get started.
Thanks Steve Owen for the thumbs up on Jeyes Fluid - I will make a weakish dose as it can kill worms :(
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Bayer Garden Concentrated Fungus Fighter
Does anyone think this could help in the fight with Stagonospora?
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Bayer Garden Concentrated Fungus Fighter
Does anyone think this could help in the fight with Stagonospora?
Looks like it can and will kill anything - http://www.bayergarden.co.uk/~/media/UK-United%20Kingdom/CLP%20Approved/2016/Fungus%20Fighter%20Concentrate%20pub%20msds%20aug%2014.ashx (http://www.bayergarden.co.uk/~/media/UK-United%20Kingdom/CLP%20Approved/2016/Fungus%20Fighter%20Concentrate%20pub%20msds%20aug%2014.ashx)
These chemicals are too dangerous for me!
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I keep all my new snowdrops in large pots for at least two years before risking them in the garden or risking exposing the garden to any pests or diseases they might have had.
What type/size pots do you use, Alan?
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Looks like it can and will kill anything - http://www.bayergarden.co.uk/~/media/UK-United%20Kingdom/CLP%20Approved/2016/Fungus%20Fighter%20Concentrate%20pub%20msds%20aug%2014.ashx (http://www.bayergarden.co.uk/~/media/UK-United%20Kingdom/CLP%20Approved/2016/Fungus%20Fighter%20Concentrate%20pub%20msds%20aug%2014.ashx)
These chemicals are too dangerous for me!
AGREED
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What type/size pots do you use, Alan?
Sorry, I missed this question. I use 3 litre round pots. The main reason for this is that I do not have the facility to plunge the pots into sand in winter. The large pot size makes for a greater thermal mass so it would take a longer period of cold weather to freeze the compost in the pot. The other advantage is that it takes longer to deplete the nutrients so I can get away with repotting about every three years.
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Thanks, Alan.
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Not great pictures and am not sure if I can do sharper images,but what would you think and you do if you saw this please? Front and back of the same leaf, the second image shows some similar discoloration in the lower leaf,which didn't appear to be there initially.
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A bit too out-of-focus, Bailey. The leaves of a stagonospora-infected plant develop blotches and ultimately look burnt to a crisp. In the initial stages the leaves are often distorted but I think that can also be the result of physical damage at an early stage of growth so not proof positive of an infection. Infected plants will have discoloured bulbs with rotten outer scales.
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Have just purchased a large bag of Actinovate as have evidence of Stag/ Peyronellaea curtisii on some of my potted snowdrops. Not sure of the original source but I bought drops from a number of growers last year so guess I wont know for sure (I know I bought some elwesii and woronowii from nurseries, garden centres etc that showed evidence of Stag or Fusarium or the like that had to be disposed of, so will be more circumspect on that front at least!).
For those interested in buying Actinovate, the only place I found with available stock was the Landscape Store in the US and a big bag was cheaper from their e-Bay store than via Amazon (considerably so on postage - worked out £15 cheaper overall so worth bearing in mind).
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Josh - I trust you checked the expiry date. Given the temperatures at which it is active that makes for a very limited time frame for application. For Nova Scotia that means the month of May, by June they're dormant and drying off!
Got a trial packet in October and it expires this month.... ::)
john
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I suspect that at this time of year the fungus is not very active but it will start back into growth as the soil temperature warms up. You might take the opportunity to replace the soil and remove any rotten outer scales so any subsequent treatment will be more effective. Were the pots in a sand plunge that might allow the infection to spread from one pot to another? I typically use large 3 litre pots in air. This is risky in severe cold weather but seems fairly effective in keeping any pests or diseases confined to the pot in which they arose.
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Thanks John - had to take the risk on expiry as I want to apply immediately and may slightly warm up important pots as I want to try and nip in the bud any further spread...
Thanks Alan - my fault for keeping a load of drops from various sources near each other over summer, with some in aquatic pots out of the ground (I know...let things lapse in my own garden this year doing others; not proud and jolted back into belated action).
Have dealt with a prize pot, one of which one was showing minor signs on leaf and sheath. All four bulbs looked clean but root growth not what I would like so dunked the three showing no obvious signs in garlic water before repotting in new soil mix and pot; the one showing evidence is still submerged and I will repot separately tomorrow. It is my own selections I am most concerned about - the named ones can always be replaced (notwithstanding costs of course). I will off-site(s) some of the replaceable ones to a virgin location away from other drops I have access to and monitor how these do.
Fingers crossed
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I have a "sick bay" away from other snowdrops where I keep any that I know or suspect to be unhealthy. In my experience bulbs that look clean after a wash will very frequently recover to full health. With bulbs that don't look clean I'm not sure if I have ever yet succeeded but fortunately I rarely find sick bulbs these days so don't have much opportunity to experiment.
You can now buy a product called "Empathy Bulb Starter with Rootgrow". This has mycorrhizal funghi; presumably including Trichoderma. A product like this might be a good treatment for bulbs showing poor root growth provided you don't treat with Actinovate and kill-off the beneficial fungi.
I understand completely the trials and tribulations of having bulbs that are unique to yourself that cannot be replaced. If I have collected bulbs from elsewhere I try to leave some behind where possible. I also try to split them as soon as I can and then keep the two in different areas of my garden. And I try to distribute then ASAP in order to reduce the risk, although this means that I will never make my fortune as the only holder of some new wonder snowdrop.
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You can now buy a product called "Empathy Bulb Starter with Rootgrow". This has mycorrhizal funghi; presumably including Trichoderma. A product like this might be a good treatment for bulbs showing poor root growth provided you don't treat with Actinovate and kill-off the beneficial fungi.
It's important, Alan, to stress that Streptomyces lydicus WYEC 108, the active ingredient in Actinovate, is not a broad spectrum fungicide able to "kill-off the beneficial fungi".
It's a saprophytic soil organism, naturally occurring in soils, which colonizes root tips "acting as a mycoparasite of fungal root pathogens . . . . [using] production and excretion of antifungal metabolites" to kill off those pathogens, according to the U.S.'s Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA) "BIOPESTICIDE REGISTRATION ACTION DOCUMENT" about it.
At one time I read another document that posited that it (or another organism it encouraged) was able to eat infected, dying tissue - in effect out competing the pathogen, just like fly maggots in a wound. It has a pretty focused aim.
It's good, known about for over half a century, and certified by many U.S. government and organic agencies for organic gardening.
Jim
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Thanks for correcting my misapprehension, JimF. The only excuse I can offer for my ignorance is that Actinovate is not sold in the UK where I live (other than as an unofficial import). I don't know why not.
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Well that was a let down.
It was some some nivalis 'Lady Elphinstone' from Westcountry Nurseries on Ebay instead. They claim their snowdrops are "pot grown". They are sitting in pots of dry peat with very little root growth. Avoid the Donkey Daisy
I wish I had registered on here sooner. So that I could have done a search.
Seems donkeydaisy hasn't changed in over 10 years :( Just got a plant from them - looks terrible, very little root growth and the flower has been removed, so preventing confirmation of ID, which for a G. nivalis clone is really helpful. They said that was to prevent in getting broken in the post ::)
Never again!
As an introduction of me - mid 50's, from Kent. Grown a few snowdrops for Decades, but recently started to gather a few others.
I also grow Carnivorous Plants and have done seriously for about 15 years. But generally grown plants for most of my life.
Hopefully my future posts will be on a more positive note. Maybe even a few pic's, when I've had a look at how to do it here.
Sorry if this isn't in the right place, but wanted to respond to this other 'complaint'.
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Hi Guys,
Having detected a suspected case of Stag... I thought I'd try some Actinovate... referenced further up this thread. BUT it no longer seems to be available? Seems strange that a useful treatment should disappear... Any thoughts on its efficacy OR alternatives??
Tim DH
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I had some clear signs of infection before first lockdown. My main collection is 8 miles from home, and I don't drive so I then didn't see them till June. I emptied the pots then, gave them a short soak in 5% Dettol, and repotted. We went back into lockdown before most of them came up, but we had a brief respite and I managed to look around for three hours in mid Feb. I did not see any signs of infection then. But no idea when I will get to see them again.
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... I thought I'd try some Actinovate... referenced further up this thread. BUT it no longer seems to be available?
Actinovate has never been available; it is not approved for use in the UK http://sitem.herts.ac.uk/aeru/bpdb/Reports/2032.htm
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Hi Alan,
Thanks for the link…. that’s a fascinating webpage.
How curious that a micro-organism originally isolated from English Agricultural Soil can be used as a fungicide in the EU, but not in its homeland!
However… It doesn’t currently appear to be available anywhere, so questions about its approval status are a bit academic.
Historically, some forum members do appear to have tried it…Since no-one is leaping to its defense, or mourning its passing, I guess it wasn’t that effective anyway.
There are A LOT of bulbs in my Stag affected snowdrop clump… So I’m in a good position to run a trial… I’m currently thinking I’ll wait until dormancy and divide the bulbs between half a dozen different promising treatments..
Apart from Actinovate, treatments suggested above include:
Dettol (Thanks Anthony)
Empathy Bulb Starter (Thanks Alan)
Garlic (Thanks Josh & Jupiter)
Serenade (Thanks Carolyn, but only available in 10 Litre bottles here!!!)
Trichoderma Harzianum (Thanks Anne, and again Alan)
Peracetic Acid (Thanks Derryclare… think I’ll pass on that one)
Is there anything else I should consider trying??
Tim DH
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Is there anything else I should consider trying??
Not a treatment but I would remove the outer scales that show staining. You could also try hot water treatment, I think Avon Bulbs may have published a recipe.
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I have some bayer infinito fungaside, any good? Or is it banned now. I have a case of grey mould. Open to all advise/ opinions thanks