Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: David Nicholson on February 12, 2010, 08:20:15 PM
-
I though twice about posting this. I got interrupted during picturing this one by screams coming from the top end of the garden. The source was Mrs N. whose clothes line had broken and all the days washing was on the lawn. Of course, it was my fault not having replaced the clothes line when requested as "it will see me out will that one". It nearly didn't ;D But to get back, I see that my close up pic is actually a flower that is well past it's best so sorry, and if in the next week we are graced with another fine day I will try to get a better close up.
Gethyum atropurpureum from Hans J, thank you Hans.
-
Hesperantha vaginata is in flower.
I really like the combination of yellow and black in flowers.
According to the temperatures expected for next days, the flowers will not last long ::) :-\
-
stunning Miriam love the black tips on the petals.
-
Great to see these in the open garden Miriam, where do they fit into your wider planting scheme?
-
Chris,
I have about a dunam which includes: Cacti area, lawn, perennial and annual flowers bed, gravel and pebbles beds for bulbs and etc..
But since I joined the SRGC and thanks to some good friends from the forum, I am out of space ;D
So now I have to eliminate my lawn to make a new bed for bulbous plants.
-
Hello Miriam. I have been tearing up grass for years now to make beds for the Aril iris.
Less mowing anyway.
John B
Chris,
I have about a dunam which includes: Cacti area, lawn, perennial and annual flowers bed, gravel and pebbles beds for bulbs and etc..
But since I joined the SRGC and thanks to some good friends from the forum, I am out of space ;D
So now I have to eliminate my lawn to make a new bed for bulbous plants.
-
Too right, though grass / meadow has its uses as a life support system for orchids!
-
I know we've seen it before on the Forum.... but what an odd-looking thing. ???
-
In an odd sort of way it reminds me of an ear of barley! Very nice though, how do you grow it?
-
Lesley, yes it is different but neither of my pictures do the plant any favours at all. Hans J showed a pic some time ago which is much better than any I could produce. Here it is:-
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2955.0
James, beginners luck I think. ;D I watered my bulbs for the first time around the first of September. Again on a couple of occasions when top growth was showing and I shall probably give them a little sulphate of potash this week. The bulbs are in a 9cm square plastic pot in my unheated greenhouse and have taken all the frost that this winter has brought so far. My top and side vents are normally open all year round and I have panes removed in the door and opposite elevation. I must admit that in the worst excesses I have closed the top vents.
Hans' climate is more Mediterranean than mine, though he is often colder in the winter than me and his plants are only just in bud, and Maggi has said elsewhere that she has lost her bulbs this winter. So mine has got to be luck!
-
Oh yes, I remember now David. For some reason I seem always to mix Gethyum and Gethyllis. Isn't that one of those odd plants with incredibly twisted foliage? or perhaps my mixed up brain is even more out of kilter than I thought. :'(
-
Thanks, Miriam - nice flowers and nice to see the lawn before you convert it to bulb beds ;D
cheers
fermi
-
Is this not a great plant?
It start to flower last year in november and is still flowering at the end of february.
Ipheion dialystemon is also an easy plant...
-
Is this not a great plant?
It start to flower last year in november and is still flowering at the end of february.
Ipheion dialystemon is also an easy plant...
A great picture of a very pretty flower.
-
David,
The Gethyum is striking, and Hans pics from last year are gorgeous!! I don't recall it from last year..... great colour. Not a genus I have ever heard of before. Fascinating. 8)
-
Miriam,
The Hesperantha is glorious!
Fermi,
The Crossyne are excellent.
And Chris..... don't encourage her. If you start calling Lesley a "Grand Old Dame" then she might take the initials to heart and put on airs and graces. ;) ;)
Thanks for the wonderful pics everyone. 8)
-
Very nice David. My few seedlings from last year's exchange reappeared around November and seem easy to manage so far, but won't reach flowering size for at least a couple of years I suspect.
-
Paul I fully accept that Maggi is the Goddess and I don't believe in God, so I shan't be looking for the title or the adulation.
-
The Ipheion is very nice. Has it been put into Nothoscordum? or taken out of Nothoscordum? or otherwise messsed about with by "those taxonomists?"
-
Lesley, nothing escapes your keen eye!
It has been merged into Nothoscordum and seems it will stay in there. The genus Nothoscordum is very difficult as it has many species and the jigsaw puzzle can not be completed as it grows in prime agricultural land so all you find are isolated populations and it is impossible to determine if there is a continuum (that is, intermediates).
-
.....and was it not once also a Tristagma? :-\
-
Yes, Maggie, it was also a Beauveardia, and Ipheion... this group shares some characters with Ipheions, others with some Nothoscordums, so they thought they were best in their own, Beauverdia. Practically all characters are present in Nothoscordum ostenii, a gem that is grown in Britain, introduced by Brian; therefore it was placed in Nothoscordum. N. osteni has characters of the transparent tunic Nothoscordums and share the biscuit colored hardish "shell" typical of Beauveardias.
Incidentally and much as we hate the continuing nomenclature changes it seems we will have to get accostumed to the name Tristagma for our Ipheions. Now that more Tristagmas are in cultivation from John and Anita collections it is clear that there are no significant differences with the Ipheions, and Tristagma has the precedence over Ipheion.
-
I just don't seem to get near the forum these days, however things will have to change when the autumn season starts in earnest - come on the fall... :D
Just a question regarding a South American irid, Tigridia philippiana - does or has anyone grown this bulb at all? I understand that it is a winter grower, which is unusual for a Tigridia.
Any suggestions / advice would be welcome - thanks!
-
Hi Kris, very crisp andclean looking Ipheon sellowianum.
Nothoscordum sellowianum or Ipheon sellowianum etc flowered here in November, the same plant is flowering again in February. Interesting effect of exposure to frosty nights is the colour change in the outer petals ( petals are perfectly normal otherwise ), I've never seen this effect before.
-
Hi Kris, very crisp andclean looking Ipheon sellowianum.
Nothoscordum sellowianum or Ipheon sellowianum etc flowered here in November, the same plant is flowering again in February. Interesting effect of exposure to frosty nights is the colour change in the outer petals ( petals are perfectly normal otherwise ), I've never seen this effect before.
Hi Chris ,just perfect! Looks good,healthy and also interesting observations.
With glassprotection or without?
-
Hi Kris, grown without any artificial protection at all, it has been buried under snow, but has only been exposed to around -5c without snow cover. I have its sister bulb in a covered frame,the one you see is much more robust than the one grown with protection!
-
Hi Rogan:
It is a hot desert plant and very endangered. As a matter of fact, it is one of the species that is being propagated in an effort to avoid its extinction.
Yes, it is an autumn, winter, spring grower and summer dormant. Ther are several color variants. Not extremely difficult to grow but the dormancy is tricky. It should be grown as a frost free Cape bulb.
-
Another one in flower today : Tecophilaea cyanocrocus 'leichtlinii'
-
Simon, very outstanding under your conditions
-
Chris, I missed your posting. If it has 8 tepals it is N. dialystemon. Nothoscordum felipponei (I. sellowianum) has always 6 tepals.
-
Chris, I missed your posting. If it has 8 tepals it is N. dialystemon. Nothoscordum felipponei (I. sellowianum) has always 6 tepals.
Thanks Alberto, that makes it N.dialystemon, database updated. The plant will be moving into the rock garden once the snow has melted - again!
-
maggie, I think the continents are being mixed up again ::)
-
maggie, I think the continents are being mixed up again ::)
Yes, susan, you're right.... I'm having a transcontinental drift :-[ Trying to sort it out again!!
-
Some Tecophileas today - var. cyanocrocus and var. violacea. Also have var. leichtlinii out but harder to photograph!
-
Already posted elsewhere, but worth another look ;D :
Ismene festalis
[attachthumb=1]
And Rhophiala bifida, a new pic taken this morning,
[attachthumb=2]
cheers
fermi
-
I agree Fermi.
Angie :)
-
I didn't realise that I could grow any South American oxalis till Maggi told me that the Pic I posted of Oxalis lobata to the "South African" thread actually beonged here! So here it is,
[attachthumb=1]
cheers
fermi
-
Your Bifidas are nice and early Fermi, not a sign from mine yet. Do you grow the large, deep red form, also known as 'Granatiflora'? By all accounts it seems to be a magnificent plant.
-
news from me for the South American bulbs :D
Today in flower :
Nothoscordum bivalve
Hans 8)
-
;)
Alberto
-
Very pretty Hans, nice photography as well.
Angie :)
-
;) Thanks Angie + Alberto
-
Trichopetalum plumosum from a F&W collection. Short lived flowers on lanky stems but self fertile and sets lots of seed which is about it's only virtue!
-
Darren thats lovely if you have any spare seed would love to give it a home.
-
Can probably manage that Davey - probably some 1 year old seedlings too.
-
Trichopetalum plumosum from a F&W collection. Short lived flowers on lanky stems but self fertile and sets lots of seed which is about it's only virtue!
Only virtue?? It is an extraordinary flower - wonderfully feathery!
-
Herbertia lahue native to Chile and Argentina
-
Love it 8)
Angie :)
-
Thanks Angie
-
Herbertia lahue native to Chile and Argentina
very nice indeed! irid i guess?
-
Thanks Cohan
yes a Iridacea, the flower only little hours
-
Can you tell us how to grow this Allessandro? I've had plants for several years but never had flowers so some tips would be great! Do you dry it out in summer?
-
Can you tell us how to grow this Allessandro? I've had plants for several years but never had flowers so some tips would be great! Do you dry it out in summer?
Darren
I cannot help you, I have bought bulbs in October, they have gone in vegetation quickly, and now in flower,
-
Herbertia lahue I know mainly from meadows near seashore in southern chile where summer is not very hot, so I would think it does not like overbaking in summer.
Here a Rhodophiala spec. from seeds of lower parts of Teno Valley, Chile - R. pratensis?
-
Thanks for the replies about the Herbertia - I will try a cooler summer.
First flowering at 9 years old for Leucocoryne vittata from a packet of seed obtained from John Watson at Alpines 2001. Note difference in size and colour! I've been pollinating between them and hope for some seed. They have a delicious scent which reminds me of Cardamon pods and gives me a curry craving - not that this is hard to do.. :)
-
I think Roma had a lovely pot of Leucocoryne at the Aberdeen show if not it was something that looked as lovely as your flower.
Angie :)
-
I think Roma had a lovely pot of Leucocoryne at the Aberdeen show if not it was something that looked as lovely as your flower.
Angie :)
That's quite right, Angela; picture coming up in the show thread shortly!
edit.... and Graeme Strachan had already posted one! :D
-
Roma's plant looks lovely.
L odorata from the same source (F&W in 2001) has also chosen this year for its floral debut. I only just now spotted the flowers reaching for the light on a 3ft stem as the pot was still in the dark under the bench with other seedlings. No picture yet but imagine the above only pure white. Scent is very similar.
-
I though twice about posting this. I got interrupted during picturing this one by screams coming from the top end of the garden. The source was Mrs N. whose clothes line had broken and all the days washing was on the lawn. Of course, it was my fault not having replaced the clothes line when requested as "it will see me out will that one". It nearly didn't ;D But to get back, I see that my close up pic is actually a flower that is well past it's best so sorry, and if in the next week we are graced with another fine day I will try to get a better close up.
Gethyum atropurpureum from Hans J, thank you Hans.
Been browsing on threads I've not had time to follow, This is my plant this spring of the plant I think you were discussing it came with another name though, from Norman Stevens 6 or seven years ago and increaces steadily, also a tiny plant which looks as if it is related. I think they would both grow outside
-
Herbertia lahue native to Chile and Argentina
very nice indeed! irid i guess?
I grow Herbertia lahue in plastic long toms planted deep with leafmould alongside evansia Iris. It flowers in summer and is nearly evergreen, it had started its new seasons growth about 3 weeks ago when I repotted it, it likes a moist summer and a dryish winter
-
I think this plant is s american, It grows well outside for me. Tristagma nivalis forma nivalis
-
Peter
Very nice You have obtained from seed?
-
Bessera elegans purple form
-
Thankyou Alessandro,
I bought it from Bob Brown - Cotswold Garden Plants five years ago. He had two kinds but when I got home I discoverd I had only bought the one. ::) :-[ ::) :'( The other one was black. it has been muchhappier growing in the ground. I am hoping to get T bivalve this year :D.
Your Bessera is lovely, I did not know it came in purple, I tried to grow it once but it never came up :-\
-
Peter Thanks,
I have tried with seeds, but I have not had good result, currently I have some T. patagonicum
-
Alessandro,
I'd heard of the purple form of Bessera, but don't recall ever seeing a pic of it. Thank you so much. It's an excellent colour, isn't it!! :o
Wow.
-
Thanks Paul,
to be a beautiful color, appreciated because unusual
-
I hope is not also this to winter flower
Rhodophiala araucana
-
Stunning Rhodophiala Alessandro, is this seed grown?
-
Thanks Hristo
not to be grown from seed,I have bought from a nursery
-
Another great colour, Alessandro. Interesting sunset shades in the blend of colours. Really beautiful. 8)
-
Thanks Paul
an other Rhodophiala in flower
R. chilense
-
a couple from me...
Rhodophiala montana from yikes!! 1993 Watson seed collection
and an "Alstroemeria hookeri" of about the same vintage from Archilbald's seeds.
-
Mark
very nice :P
-
The first Rhodophiala in flower today. It came as Rhodophiala elwesii (actually Hippeastrum elwesii) from Harry Jans ex Goteborg BG.
Back to the greenhouse, I just spotted an aphid in the photo.
johnw
-
Two Alstroemerias growing in Nova Scotia, both are fully cold hardy. The first I got from Cistus Nursery and it is rather rampageous. The second yellow one is in a friend's garden today in Halifax and she's had it for 30 years. It too grows lustily and is never bothered by insects or disease.
None have species names. Are they just colour variants of the same species? Anyone care to offer suggestions?
johnw
-
Thanks Paul
an other Rhodophiala in flower
R. chilense
The color is very beauty!!! :D
-
Two Alstroemerias growing in Nova Scotia, both are fully cold hardy. The first I got from Cistus Nursery and it is rather rampageous. The second yellow one is in a friend's garden today in Halifax and she's had it for 30 years. It too grows lustily and is never bothered by insects or disease.
None have species names. Are they just colour variants of the same species? Anyone care to offer suggestions?
johnw
Are they just colour variants of the same species? Anyone care to offer suggestions?
John,
It seems they are - both colours occur with Alstroemeria aurantiaca - see also my pics from the Botanical Garden of Bochum!
Gerd
-
By special request, a side view of my flower. Unfortunately as the original pics were taken some weeks ago this flower is the only one remaining and it was past it's best. Also there is a fan in the background because this plant is in an almost inaccessible part of the greenhouse (don't ask)
-
First time flowerer for me;
Zephyranthes flavissima
-
Lovely yellow Chris.
-
I have this listed as Habranthus martinezii but am not convinced it is correct, anyone ID it.?
Habranthus martinezii ? Habranthus robustus
-
I have this listed a as Habranthus martinezii but am not convinced it is correct, anyone ID it.?
Habranthus martinezii ?
Michael, I don't think this looks right. H martinezii is almost white inside, with a dark pink reverse. Here's mine for comparision.
-
Diane,I thought it might be Habranthus tubispathus var. roseus but the flower is a bit on the large side for to be roseus.
-
Michael,
Too even a colour too, at least compared to my var roseus. Good, even colour to it I must say. Doesn't match anything I have here, so I unfortunately can't help further. Definitely not martinezii, as Diane said.
-
Diane,I thought it might be Habranthus tubispathus var. roseus but the flower is a bit on the large side for to be roseus.
Hi Michael,
if it's a fairly large flower it might be Habranthus robustus or perhaps its hybrid with H. martinezii.
see reply #12 on this thread: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4887.0 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4887.0)
cheers
fermi
-
Thanks folks,it has now been confirmed as Habranthus robustus.
-
Michael,
Congratulations then, you've got a better colour of robustus than I do..... I think mine is much more wishy washy from memory (or else my memory is more wishy washy! ;D).
-
I have this listed as Habranthus martinezii but am not convinced it is correct, anyone ID it.?
Habranthus martinezii ? Habranthus robustus
hello ^^
This is my garden Habranthus martinezii(The above two pictures)
The following two pictures are H. Robustus russell manning
For your reference :)
-
Two alstromerias been flowering for ages here, not sure of their names though,
and cypella herbertii has a few flowers each day :D, none of the corms I planted outside last year have apeard as yet :'(
-
Hi Peter I do like the first alstromeria 8)
Angie :)
-
Here's a couple of pics from the garden today from my clump of Tigridia pavonia. The bulbs were purchased about four years ago from one of the "Sheds" so were probably Dutch raised. They have flowered every year since although they don't seem to have increased. I never raise them and dry them off, all they get, if I remember, is a composted bark mulch just after they have gone dormont but I forgot last year and they survived probably our worst winter in many years. This year I planted a second clump from a similar source and although the bulbs were quite small I've had a couple of flowers.
In the greenhouse I have one plant of Tigridia van-houttii which is all I have left from a sowing of 13 seeds from the SRGC Seed Ex. in March 2008. It looked big enough to flower this year but didn't-maybe next year!
-
The blooms are a really good size, aren't they? :o
When I've bought packet Tigridias they've never b flowered to that size.... well, most have never flowered at all.... I don't think this place agrees with them :'(
I think Roma grows a few of these bulbs, under glass in her colder garden..... drat her!! ;) ;)
-
The blooms are a really good size, aren't they? :o
When I've bought packet Tigridias they've never b flowered to that size.... well, most have never flowered at all.... I don't think this place agrees with them :'(
I think Roma grows a few of these bulbs, under glass in her colder garden..... drat her!! ;) ;)
mmy feelings too Maggie-very succinctly put :-\
-
The blooms are a really good size, aren't they? :o
When I've bought packet Tigridias they've never b flowered to that size.... well, most have never flowered at all.... I don't think this place agrees with them :'(
I think Roma grows a few of these bulbs, under glass in her colder garden..... drat her!! ;) ;)
Forgot to mention that they always get a sprinkle of the magic white powder as the leaves start to brown. Apart from that it's just luck!!
-
Could someone remind me what this South American irid is? I know I should know it but the label has gone walk about and so have my brain cells...
Pleated, virtually evergreen leaves.
-
Cypella coelestris?
-
David, here are a couple from your seed sown on the 12/01/2009.
-
Could someone remind me what this South American irid is? I know I should know it but the label has gone walk about and so have my brain cells...
Pleated, virtually evergreen leaves.
Cypella plumbea ?
-
David, here are a couple from your seed sown on the 12/01/2009.
That was quick Michael. It just shows the hand of the "master"-I lost all mine :(
-
Cypella coelestris?
Hmmm..... I think my suggestion of Cypella plumbea may just be a synonym, or a colour variant of what may be Cypella coelestis
.... no "r" ..... though references can be found to both spellings!
This note from Mary Sue Itttner is handy, I think...
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/pbs/2002-August/012180.html
-
Hmmm..... I think my suggestion of Cypella plumbea may just be a synonym, or a colour variant of what may be Cypella coelestis
.... no "r" ..... though references can be found to both spellings!
This note from Mary Sue Itttner is handy, I think...
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/pbs/2002-August/012180.html
This information is useful, though a tad out of date ;D
Cypella plumbea and C coelestis were subsumed into Phalocallis coelestis about 4 years ago. ::)
http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do?accepted_id=324327&repSynonym_id=327865&name_id=324245&status=false (http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do?accepted_id=324327&repSynonym_id=327865&name_id=324245&status=false)
Phalocallis is a single species genus, other species in Cypella have stayed put.
-
Diane, I really don't know how you keep up with all this info.... but I am SO GLAD you do, for it keeps the rest of us clued in and we're very grateful for that.
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
-
Diane, I really don't know how you keep up with all this info....
Glad someone appreciates it ;D
It's this time of the year that I check all my plant name database, ready for Seed Reception in a few weeks. It's a tedious job, but with some interesting corners. It also gets increasingly more difficult to decide which way to go, as the resources I use don't keep up with each other. ::)
In between doing this, I'm trying to pot up bulbs .... (iris done, cyclamen done, galanthus done) ... I'll get back to that now.
-
Many thanks all - new label written as Phalocallis coelestis, though the chickens will probably pull it out anyway.....
-
Unfortunately research goes faster than one would wish.
Phalocallis is included in Cypella along with several other previous "genera". They are anatomically Cypellas.
Phalocallis is a subgenus of Cypella and comprises 3 species.
The current name for the plant in the photo is Cypella coelestis. Cypella plumbea is a darker form of Cypella coelestis thst seem to be extinct in the wild. Does it exist in cultivation?
Cypella coelestis has a subtropical origin and last a very long season of bloom under warmish conditions, like those suited for Cape bulbs.
The most recent info on the subject is in "The Iris Family" by Peter Goldblatt.
Something unexpected is that the plants we all thought to be Cypella peruviana and kin (the former Hesperoxiphion peruvianum) since they look so "Cypelloid" is taxonomically distant and therefore the genus Hesperoxiphion has been restored now.
Diane, hope this is of help.
Best
Alberto
-
Okay - I think I'll leave it without a label!
-
Unfortunately research goes faster than one would wish. Phalocallis is included in Cypella along with several other previous "genera". They are anatomically Cypellas. Phalocallis is a subgenus of Cypella and comprises 3 species.
The current name for the plant in the photo is Cypella coelestis. Cypella plumbea is a darker form of Cypella coelestis thst seem to be extinct in the wild. Does it exist in cultivation?
Diane, hope this is of help.
Best Alberto
Alberto, thanks for your great knowledge. I haven't yet got a copy of the Goldblatt book, but I expect I will soon. Does Goldblatt's work override that of APG3 as used by the Kew database?
http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do?accepted_id=324327&repSynonym_id=323772&name_id=324327&status=true (http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do?accepted_id=324327&repSynonym_id=323772&name_id=324327&status=true)
-
Dear Diane:
Yes, it is a densely technical book with all recent molecular DNA findings, covering all the genera of the Iridaceae. Some results are amazing, other disparate and a good deal logic and resonable. Even so, this is how far the knowledge of the family has gone and Peter has studied them for so many years that one can trust his taxonomy without doubts.
Kew is of course trying to establish a balance among the whirlwind of synonyms but one can find major "horrors" here and there. For instance, note they describe P. coelestis as "tuber geophyte" when it is a basic fact that all tigridioid irids have BULBS.
Best
-
For all Zephyranthes Hybrids lovers
Just have a look here
This tells everything especially the fields under the named hybrids
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/ZephyranthesHybrids
Roland
-
And If you think is this all
here are some more Zephyranthes Hybrids
http://www.bulbnrose.org/Fadjar/fadjar1.htm
Roland
-
Dear Diane: Yes, it is a densely technical book with all recent molecular DNA findings, covering all the genera of the Iridaceae. Some results are amazing, other disparate and a good deal logic and resonable. Even so, this is how far the knowledge of the family has gone and Peter has studied them for so many years that one can trust his taxonomy without doubts.
Kew is of course trying to establish a balance among the whirlwind of synonyms but one can find major "horrors" here and there. For instance, note they describe P. coelestis as "tuber geophyte" when it is a basic fact that all tigridioid irids have BULBS.
It's very interesting, thanks for your comments, Alberto. It just takes a while for the published versions of Kew database and the RHS database (which on this occasion, unusually, agree) to catch up with the latest research, which makes my job difficult as those databases are the ones commonly available to most people for consultation.
I'd be interested to hear your comments about the latest move by APG3 to put all of Alliaceae into Amaryllidaceae (AGP2 put them all together a few years ago, but under the name of Alliaceae, on the grounds that Alliaceae was the oldest name). But now they have gone the other way, putting all of Alliaceae into Amaryllidaceae, and dragging Agapanthaceae along there as well.
-
Diane,
The very fact that the Kew database and the RHS database sometimes disagree is a perfect example of how difficult new publications get accepted. The latest research is not necessarily the latest stand on a name or automatically reason to relabel a plant. Acceptance of new publications is a difficult and somewhat obscure proces that highly depends on "I agree" or "I disagree", both by the trade as well as science. Unfortunately most members on this forum don't have the knowledge to review new publications and make their own judgement so have to rely on "which name pops up the most" and how well one trusts someones "authority". Like Alberto trusts Peter Goldblatt and you might trust Alberto on his assesment of Peter's research. In taxonomy the number of times research is referred to in a positive way in related publications is generally a good sign of the acceptance in science.
When there is only one recent publication that proved a major step forward in the understanding of a genus, that will generally be accepted quite fast but the challenge is when there are several competing researches going on.
To give a good example, recently 2 new publications were released on a aroid genus not many people are familiar with: Typhonium. Probably best known for Typhonium/Sauromatum venosum (syn. guttatum). Both publications were based on DNA research by reputable researchers but looking at different chloroplast regions. One publication resurrects the genus Sauromatum for a group of species that clearly show up as a distinct group in the phylogeny, the other looks at a different part of the DNA, find a "knot" in the phylogeny and split the entire genus into 3 new genera plus also resurrect Sauromatum!
So which is it going to be? Sauromatum and Typhonium or Sauromatum, Pedatityphonium, Hirsutarum and Diversiarum? To answer that question one has to look at the research itself, the authors and their reputation, previous publications of them on that genus or family, ones own knowledge and experience on that genus etc.... Not an easy task.
I have looked at the publications, noticed that the first research sampled a lot more species, the approach was well thought and extensive and saw a solution that made much more sense than the second publication. So personally I have not accepted the split of Typhonium in 3 new genera. But that is a personal choice based on the research itself, the taxonomic views of the researchers I know of both publications and my own understanding of the genus.
But I can imagine Kew has more scientific resources at hand than the RHS to review new articles and asses their quality and integrity so might be a bit more uptodate. But that is an assumption and who do you trust, Kew or the RHS? And who do the individuals that do the reviews at Kew or the RHS trust? Difficult isn't it....? ;)
-
.......Not to mention that to gain access to all the publications a private individual would need considerable financial resources....... :P
-
.......Not to mention that to gain access to all the publications a private individual would need considerable financial resources....... :P
Well, not necessarily... When I speak for myself, I take the train to the Leiden Herbarium and make photocopies of the articles in the Journals, only some of the books devoted to a single genus or family I buy but that is just because the price of the number of photocopies would equal that of the book. But you have to have the time and "drive" to look into a genus to such an extent and I have to admit, it is a lot easier to gain acces to the library in Leiden than for instance Kew, which seems submerged in rules and regulations.
Of RBGE I am not sure but they have a good library with most of the major taxonomic journals and I was allowed to visit the herbarium without a problem.
-
I do not doubt the quality and accessibility of the Library at Leiden, but for many people there is no question of actual access to such resources and to access the papers online is, for the most part,very expensive, as can be the books.
-
Maggi,
Very true and after writing my above reply I realised I was in a somewhat privileged position to be able to visit and use a place like the Leiden Herbarium which is easy to reach and acces, a position not everyone is in. But not everbody wants to look up these publications anyway and I am sure that if a Scottish grower really wants to delve into a genus and wants to look up original descriptions, RBGE would be able to facilitate that as well without too much cost, it is a matter of being crazy enough about a genus to go that far.... ;)
Not many people are, most just want to rely on an authority for a name.
Do realise that true botanical research is rarely published in book-form, short 3-4 page articles in Journals is the more likely way that research is published and that is relatively easy to copy at low cost. Many botanical libraries provide that service if asked for and at a relatively low cost.
On the bright side, many herbaria start putting scans of herbaria specimens online (such as Kew) and some Journals are putting the issues of 3-4 years old online as PDF free to download, sometimes even issues as recent as 2009 like Taiwania (http://tai2.ntu.edu.tw/taiwania/). More and more publications will appear in a electronic form and therefore accesible for everyone with internet.
The original description of the recently described Corydalis kedarensis from the Himalayas for instance can be found here free to download: http://tai2.ntu.edu.tw/taiwania/pdf/tai.2009.54.4.334.pdf
-
I do hope that in future more papers will be available for free download..... they are in the minority at present. :P :P
-
The immense majority of botanical publications even a few pages long, are sold at a price and in many cases, very expensive.
Photocopying such works is not everywhere legal. Botanists are heavily pressed to produce papers to maintain their heads off the water and this amounts for the multitude or irrelevant or extravagant findings that add so little substance to actual knowledge. We see a lot of them nowadays.
Splitting is a much abused field. Even if the splitting of a genus is absurd, it counts as another paper anyway and makes up for future grants.
Of course being able to judge the validity of a paper or nomenclatural change is difficult. The judging person must know all previous papers, and decide based on current knowledge. With tenths of thousands of species and new ones described all the time it is a monumental task and mistakes are natural.
-
Alberto,
Without taking this thread too much off-topic (sorry about that....), yes, scientists need to publish in order to establish themselves as scientists and add to their CV to get new grants for research, no doubt about that. The point is that the journal they publish in needs to have some income to finance the printed journal by subscriptions, which are expensive for the hobbyist. I am fortunate to be able to make copies but there is a trend among botanical Journals to at least put issues of 4-5 years back online free to download on the internet because they do not generate income anymore, that is of benifit to scientists and to hobbyists, a scientist does not receive royalties from a journal.
Some botanical institutes embrace the new digital age, some don't. Some offer their journal also electronically at a reduced subscription rate. Just with every media, botanical publications will adept to the electronic age, the development of things like the E-reader will promote that. Unfortunately new species can still only be published in a printed paper but if it wasn't for that, there would be no need to publish on paper anymore. Maybe even that will change in the near future? There are already signs in that direction.
In the eighth edition of the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated plants a cultivar can still only be established in a published form and may not be effected by means of electronic media. However, if for instance the new cultivar is in a trade catalogue published in electronic media and 2 copies are printed of and desposited in a designated library it is allowed. Sounds rather twisted but it is a start.
Every scientists sends the data electronically to the journal he/she wants to publish in so why not publish it electronically? Saves paper and the environment, saves labour and makes it accesible to a much wider audience, doesn't any scientist want that?. Botanical institutes are slow to learn that times are changing, just like record companies...;-)
The first time I asked for a scan of a holotype from Kew I had to sign a paper with all sort of copyright requirements, now these scans are online....Knowledge and information should not be the domain of a selected few so I can fully understand what Maggi refers to.
-
Of course, the situation is like you describe it.
The only point that I would object to is that publications that are several years (decades) old are still being sold and not cheaply.
As Maggi pointed, you need a fair sum to get even a small number of papers. It is evidently fair in case of monographs and extensive works, but short articles without illustrations are also well priced.
Thanks for the input. The topic is relevant in that sooner or later amateurs will want to know more about the plants he love and oh, surprise!
Best
-
Flowering now Ipheion (Tristagma!!) uniflorum 'Charlotte Bishop', and for the second time this year! I last posted it on 12th February in the "Feb 2010 Northern Hemisphere" thread.
-
Hello David
Are you sure this is Charlotte Bishop
in the time I bought mine from Washfiels nursery's in I think 1992
it was one year before it came in the plantfinder
mine flowered much pinker
this one looks more blue as mine
Roland
-
Roland (and David),
I find that 'Charlotte Bishop' is very temperature sensitive, colour-wise, for me. The early flowers while the temps are still cold are much paler, almost white in some cases with a bit of pink on the tips. At it's best, the flowers are almost electric pink, but it rarely hits those high notes properly I find. That is also assuming that what I grow here as CP actually IS CB. ::) David's certainly appears to have more blue in it than mine ever has (but photos do appear to often bring up colour shades that we don't normally see). Either way, congratulations on the second flowering, David. 8)
-
Hello Paul
What maybe happened
you have seen seedlings from Charlotte Bishop
The same happened with the beautiful Alberto Castillo
most for sale are seedlings from this one
Roland
-
Hi Roland:
I have asked several people not to distribute seed of 'Alberto Castillo' as inferior types has been sold under this name. Since 'Alberto Castillo' is a good offsetting variety, there is no need to propagate it from seed.
Likewise, 'Charlotte Bishop' can only exist as offsets of the original clone. All seedlings are suspect as bees are active on them.
-
So what ARE the exact characteristics of Charlotte Bishop? I have no idea at all whether mine was from seedlings or from offsets of the original. Does anyone in my sort of climate grow what they know to be the definite cultivar? I ask re climate as I am aware that my climate is somewhat different to many on this list as I tend to get hotter summers than many, in combination with relatively mild winters compared to some here as well. I would imagine it would behave quite differently in different places?
-
Hello Paul
I found on the forum a picture from you
This is exact the colour as I know Charlotte Bishop
I think this is the same plant
so maybe it is just the temperature
or the season
to compare I put your pictures together
Roland
-
Roland,
Thanks. Nice to know the colour is right. Mine definitely changes according to temperature, but usually pale to white-ish, no blue tones at all as in other pic. Still, you have to also remember that David's is flowering out of season, so who knows what THOSE temperatures will do to the colour. ;D
-
Probably David will show us a picture
when the right colour shows up
I can't post . Mine died many years ago
in a very heavy winter
And Washfield Nurseries don't exist any more :(
Roland
-
Hi Roland, Paul and Alberto, sorry not to have contributed but have been away from home for most of the last two days.
My original bulb came from Rare Plants in 2007 obviously named as "Charlotte Bishop" so I took that as read. I looked at Paul's post at the beginning of this thread before I posted and did wonder if we were talking about the same plant. But then I looked at a pic Luit posted some time ago from "The Connoissuer's Collection" which crtainly looks nearer to my plant than does Paul's. Here they are below-the first is my plant, the second The Connoisseur's.
-
Hello David
I put them all 3 in reply 127 together
to compare
as you can see Paul's is really much darker
This is how I know Charlotte Bishop sins 17 years
Are yours darker in the normal spring flowering season ??
this will explain a lot
the flowers of my I. Wisley Blue are during the winter much paler
Roland
-
I definitely do get flowers that look like the Connoisseur's as well, depending on time of year. I just thought David's had more blue in it than I'd seen in mine, but as I mentioned before the camera can bring out shades that aren't visible when we look at a flower (I've seen this often enough in my own photography)
-
A note copied from the PBS pages that may be of interest here......
the list of flowering plants and fungi
from Brasil is available online at:
http://floradobrasil.jbrj.gov.br/2010/
-
Yes Maggi
I saw the link
it is the best with good descriptions
Now the possibility to find the bulbs
and get them to Europe
Roland
-
This one vanished for several years in a sea of Lachenalia bulbifera,not hard to do when your flower is maybe 6mm wide!
Nice to have it back as this bulb has been with us for over 10 years, originally from Monocot Nursery.
Miersia chilensis
-
originally from Monocot Nursery.
Hello Hristo
did you hear anything about him the last Years ??
Roland
-
originally from Monocot Nursery.
Hello Hristo
did you hear anything about him the last Years ??
Roland
Mr Salmon is retired, Roland... see these threads.....
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2462.0
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5687.0
-
Miersia chilensis is an understated little flower, for sure... but size isn't everything.
There's quite a lot of info and pictures of this site:
http://www.chileflora.com/Florachilena/FloraEnglish/HighResPages/EH0560.htm
-
Thanks maggi
I bought a lot of Crocus and Narcissus species from him
long ago and when Hristo mentioned him
I remembered he wanted to write a book
about Narcissus species
Do you know if he finished that book ??
Roland
-
I don't know of any book. You could contact Kurt Vickery (email shown in those other threads) and ask him, he may know more.
-
Ok I contact him and let you know
Roland
-
My pot of mixed Cypella herbertii caught my attention again this morning. In addition to being very beautiful, they are also very interesting at the macroscopic level, i.e. having a close look at their reproductive "parts"; the two colour forms I have are distinctly different at this level, and I was wondering if the yellow form (on the right, second picture) isn't of the variety "brevicristata" ?
Perhaps our esteemed South America colleagues (Alberto?) would like to comment on this subject. :)
-
Rogan, what exceptional photos!
Var. brevicristata comes in orange and in two yellow shades. In it the stigmatic crests are very reduced, otherwise they are the same thing.
Cypella herberti likes it really wet while in flower and by removing faded flowers you can enjoy blooms for several months.
-
Thank you for your comments re. my photographs, Alberto. I took them with my cheap hand-held, point-n-shoot camera in the garden - it's quite amazing what modern technology can accomplish!
If I may trouble you once again re. the anatomy of Cypella flowers - have I identified the style crests correctly in the image below, and also, what are the dark, horn-like structures I have indicated with a query ?
-
the four horns are parrt of the complex stigmatic zone. The zone where the two "style crests" meet is where the pollen should reach for seed formation.
I can't even think what you would achieve with a state of the art camera if this is "a cheap one"
-
nice to see someone else growing mierisia Chris, it is completely hardy for me.
lovely to see the different forms of Cypella Rogan, all mine are orange though I keep sowing it from exchanges.
This is a picture of Sisyrinchium convolutum BSWJ 9117 which I bought at Crug farm this spring. It has been flowering on and off for about five months but is now under deep snow
-
"lovely to see the different forms of Cypella Rogan, all mine are orange though I keep sowing it from exchanges."
...then I'll have to try and rustle up a seed or two for you Peter - all I'll have to do is remember to pollinate it as they don't set seed without some "tickling". :)
-
Thankyou Rogan, They would be very welcome