Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

General Subjects => The International Rock Gardener - Feedback Forum => Topic started by: cohan on March 01, 2010, 04:55:08 AM

Title: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 01, 2010, 04:55:08 AM
i was especially interested in the bit about meadows, in particular the idea of replacing grass with achillea..i'd really like to know more about this and the topic in general..has there been a thread about this? a quick search didn't yield anything, but there might have been wording i didn't think of...
perhaps we could start a discussion, i'd really like to know who has tried things in this direction, as i have similarly thought that grass here is just far too aggressive..i do have many many local carex and relatives, including a few small ones, and thought there might be possibilities in that direction, though most of them in my area are in rather moist spots, i haven't yet tried them in the garden...

i also have achillea all over, though curious if its left to flower, which is quite tall? or kept mowed?....
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Lori S. on March 01, 2010, 06:28:03 AM
Our yard (one-third acre, minus house, garage/driveway, greenhouse) is entirely perennial beds, with no turf at all... rather than a single "grass substitute", there are hundreds of species.  It is doable; one just has to cause it to happen!  :)

I suspect, though, that you are thinking more of creating a naturalistic meadow?  What are you starting with... lawn grass or...?
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Lesley Cox on March 01, 2010, 07:31:41 PM
Probably an "alpine lawn" thread would be useful. A meadow is, in effect, just a large, rather unkempt lawn. We've seen many pictures over the years of Franz's yarrow meadow and for him it is obviously the right answer as a setting for crocuses, colchicums and other little bulby things. I think it could be too vigorous here as it grows into such tight mats and in flower is maybe 70cms high. But there are certainly alternatives. I'm planning (have been for years, but some day...) the prostrate Asiatic gentians of the sino-ornata types as flowering lawn in autumn but died back to smaller patches as spring bulbs are flowering. Well that's the intention anyway.
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 01, 2010, 07:53:10 PM
i thought i'd jump these over from another area, without bothering maggi ;)

in the newest issue of the international rock gardener, i was especially interested in the bit about meadows, in particular the idea of replacing grass with achillea..i'd really like to know more about this and the topic in general..has there been a thread about this? a quick search didn't yield anything, but there might have been wording i didn't think of...
so i thought perhaps we could start a discussion, i'd really like to know who has tried things in this direction, as i have similarly thought that grass here is just far too aggressive..i do have many many local carex and relatives, including a few small ones, and thought there might be possibilities in that direction, though most of them in my area are in rather moist spots, i haven't yet tried them in the garden...

i also have achillea all over, though curious if its left to flower, which is quite tall? or kept mowed?....
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 01, 2010, 08:03:41 PM
Our yard (one-third acre, minus house, garage/driveway, greenhouse) is entirely perennial beds, with no turf at all... rather than a single "grass substitute", there are hundreds of species.  It is doable; one just has to cause it to happen!  :)

I suspect, though, that you are thinking more of creating a naturalistic meadow?  What are you starting with... lawn grass or...?



we don't have a real lawn-- when the original buildings were put in on these acres in the '70's, they fenced off a wooded area that had been part of the main farm and was grazed, but not intensively, and cut down enough trees to build a house and some semi open areas through the middle;
i think back in those days my mom probably seeded some grass, and there has been more or less regular mowing between the trees (more of which have grown since the original days)--as much to keep the trees from completely closing in (which they would in no time given a chance) and prevent dangerous buildup of dried grass, as for any 'lawn' effect; of course, at times there have been children living here, so a bit of low grassy area is nice, but overall there is a mix (presumably) of native and exotic grasses, common agricultural escapes which are unavoidable here--clover and dandelions are in places as abundant as the grasses, and many native flowers of the natural woodland which is all around the yard and meadow/verge species and various sedges etc..
 there are no areas of pure grass, but the grasses overall are too tall/aggressive to be used much with small bulbs etc, though to have flower meadows with native and taller species is easy enough--thin the grasses and pull unwanted species, allow native forbs to grow (geraniums and mertensia among others are present already) and plant any non-local meadow species..this i am already doing..
but i am thinking more of small bulbs such as crocus and others that seem to naturally grow amongst grasses, as well as native north american dryland species commonly found in short  grassland (that's likely two different kinds of plantings)--so i am thinking of something not too overwhelming in size or habit, enough of a covering to keep out some weeds, not too dense to allow the flowering species to grow through..of course it could be more flowering species--just something with open spreading habits?

interested to see what others are trying...
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 01, 2010, 08:06:22 PM
Probably an "alpine lawn" thread would be useful. A meadow is, in effect, just a large, rather unkempt lawn. We've seen many pictures over the years of Franz's yarrow meadow and for him it is obviously the right answer as a setting for crocuses, colchicums and other little bulby things. I think it could be too vigorous here as it grows into such tight mats and in flower is maybe 70cms high. But there are certainly alternatives. I'm planning (have been for years, but some day...) the prostrate Asiatic gentians of the sino-ornata types as flowering lawn in autumn but died back to smaller patches as spring bulbs are flowering. Well that's the intention anyway.

sounds like a good idea, let us know if you try it...
i haven't seen franz's meadow, any pictures on the forum here that you know of?
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 01, 2010, 08:07:17 PM
Probably an "alpine lawn" thread would be useful. A meadow is, in effect, just a large, rather unkempt lawn. We've seen many pictures over the years of Franz's yarrow meadow and for him it is obviously the right answer as a setting for crocuses, colchicums and other little bulby things. I think it could be too vigorous here as it grows into such tight mats and in flower is maybe 70cms high. But there are certainly alternatives. I'm planning (have been for years, but some day...) the prostrate Asiatic gentians of the sino-ornata types as flowering lawn in autumn but died back to smaller patches as spring bulbs are flowering. Well that's the intention anyway.

lesley and lori--i started an alpine meadows thread, and quoted you both over there..perhaps maggi would like to remove these posts from this thread?
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Lesley Cox on March 01, 2010, 08:46:33 PM
Yes there are heaps, both old and new Forums but I can't do the link thing. I go to copy for what I want to copy then when I go to where I want to paste it, the copy part has vanished into the ether. Can't seem to keep track of the two things at once.
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Maggi Young on March 01, 2010, 09:00:23 PM
Folks, I've gathered together your posts here.... I suggest a Forum search in old and new forums for posts from Franz... under  hadacekf   for mention of his meadow.... there are lots of photos... all suberb.... I have not got time right now to help with a search.... maybe later, or drop Franz a pm and ask him to contribute.....?

Well, of course we will ask Franz to tell us more about his meadow garden but to show just what can be achieved, what follows here are some photos brought , along with some introductory words from Franz from elsewhere in the Forum .....
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Maggi Young on March 01, 2010, 11:16:12 PM
Quote
My name is Franz Hadacek. I live in Vienna the capital town of Austria and I am rock gardening for 45 years. I grow a wide range of different alpine plants. Sometimes without large success! One of my interest are the bulbs,
because I saw many of them at my journeys in the Mediterranean regions. I have no alpine house, I cultivate all plants in frames or my rock garden. Many bulbs grows very good in my meadow, because our summers are dry, hot and sunny.
If you are interested, have a look at my website
http://www.franz-alpines.org

More than 50% of plants in the meadow are self sown.  My meadow is 40 years old and I never did it fertilize. My meadow consists of 20% grass, 30% different weeds and 50% Yarrow (Achillea millefollium).  

I think Franz has been seeding the bulbs into the meadow for around 20 years.....he says the meadow only grows the plants that like meadows, and not necessarily the plants he wants!
 A selection of bulbs to start with:


Galanthus-elwesii-07-first flr that year
08-Anemone-blanda-1
08-Anemone-blanda-0
08-Anemone-blanda-2
08-Crocus-0
08-Crocus-2
08-Crocus-3
08-Galanthus-hololeucus
08-Scilla-sibirica-nice little weed.
08-Tulipa-humilis--2
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Maggi Young on March 01, 2010, 11:40:26 PM
I'll continue with these photos.... I think they will prove an inspiration to any of you thinking of making your own meadow.
Thomas Huber has his lovely crocus lawn, which does have other species too, but Franz is the Master of theBulb  Meadow, in my eyes!

08-Colchicum-hungaricum1
08-Colchicum-speciosum
08-Crocus-Wiese
08-Cyclamen-hederifolium
08-Iris-K.Hodgkin meadow
08-Leucojum-valentinum
C.-biv.-spec..
C.-bivonae-groups.
C.-bivonae-6.
Colch.-petal comparison shows achillea


Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Maggi Young on March 01, 2010, 11:44:42 PM
and so the story continues....
you will see that I have not got the photos in seasonal order, but you get the general idea, I hope?

Sternbergia-sicula-6
Sternbergia-sicula-5
Sternbergia-sept09
Sternbergia-lutea-sicula leaf comparison
Ornithogalum-nanum-2
Ornithogalum-nanum
Iris-reticulata-1
Iris-danfordiae 2nd year of  flowering
Hyacinthus-orientalis
Galanthus-reginae-olgae-4
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Maggi Young on March 01, 2010, 11:49:57 PM
Click on the photos to enlarge them, of course.....

Here is the meadow in Spring...
Garden-in-Spring-0
Garden-in-Spring-1
Garden-in-Spring-2
Garden-in-Spring-4
Garden-in-Spring-5
Cyclamen-coum-1
Crocus-tommasinianus-0
Crocus-tommasinianus-1
Crocus-tommasinianus-3
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Maggi Young on March 01, 2010, 11:54:25 PM
and on  into  summer......

08-F.-hermonis-ssp.amana-0.jpg
08-F.-hermonis-ssp.amana-1.jpg
08-Meadow-0summer.jpg


08-Meadow-4summer.jpg
08-Meadow-5summer.jpg
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Maggi Young on March 02, 2010, 12:00:38 AM
...showing the flowers of spring crocus.... but later there are other flowers and these pix show some of them, and their leaves in the winter, if there is no snow cover....and later the leaves.....
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Lesley Cox on March 02, 2010, 03:27:04 AM
Plenty there for you to think about Cohan! :D I see there are a few primula seedlings as well as all the bulbs :)
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Lori S. on March 02, 2010, 03:45:22 AM
In case you have any doubts, that sort of thing is do-able here too, Cohan (not to imply this is anything like the spectacular example shown, but it's a start)... (I must admit, though, as I mentioned, the point of the "lawn" part rather escapes me.  Lawn-worship is what prevents many people from gardening around here.   ;D)
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Susan on March 02, 2010, 05:02:52 AM
Could someone tell me whether they think that camomile would do instead of achillea.  Here achillea grows to almost a metre and smothers everything.  That achillea in the photos  looks very tame and well behaved. 

Or, does anyone know which achillea it is please? I have quite a large area that I don't want to put into lawn, (green grass lawn that is) and the Alpine meadow looks just the answer. 

Thank you,

Susan
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Lori S. on March 02, 2010, 05:29:06 AM
Actually, there is chamomile visible in the Hadacek photos, as well as some yarrow.  A chamomile lawn seems to be a classic substitute for turf. 
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 02, 2010, 06:13:10 AM
thanks, maggi for all the collation efforts--you really went all out!
i was particularly interested in the summer photos, this is the part that i really want to get a handle on--i think even the potentially rampant growth here isn't taller than a crocus in spring, its the rest of the growing season i am trying to grasp..i guess the summer photos we saw would be before the achillea flowers?
i did notice what i presume lori is mentioning is chamomile, i think those are problem weeds here (i.e. introduced), but i'm sure there are lots of other possibilities..achillea millefolium is already strongly present here, not as tall or aggressive as susan's sounds, probably something like 40-60cm; it is one of the local species you'd have to work hard to keep out, along with mertensia paniculata, and campanula rotundifolia, and asters..

i was also wondering about some native Caryophyllaceae-such as various stellaria (there is a really nice one occasionally seen here, including at least one patch in my yard, with slender stems, glaucous leaves) and similar;
also, it just occurs to me, some near gentians, which are upright fairly gracile things, and i think annual/biennial, so while they can grow in clumps, not too aggressive for the bulbs---Gentianella amarella and Halenia deflexa are scattered naturally around the yard, and elsewhere locally..
similarly the native Corydalis aurea, another biennial, is loose enough to allow things to grow through..

lori, i had not doubt it could be done here  ;D i know a lot of bulbs grow just fine in this crazy climate...lol, and great to see some of your lovely plantings;i especially like the crocus with juniper... do you find many things can grow through the juniper? or do they get too dense? i'm trying to remember how often i saw plants growing through the juniper in the kootenay plains, it seems often there was nothing, but thats a very dry place;
 i can certainly relate to having no grass in a city property, even though yours seems a good size for the city; eliminating all the grass here is completely out of the question, though for me, its not a matter of wanting to create a 'lawn':
--partly, thinking about ways to have a full season bulb  bed, though frankly, i'm not sure i want to do the kind of successional planting that goes from tiny to tall-that can be quite astonishing-i lived near experimental beds of that type in toronto, and it was hard to believe the change from spring through to fall--i think i'd like things like crocus and other low plants to grow in beds that have low plants all year--plenty of other spaces for tall plants
--and secondarily, thinking about the possibility of plantings where i don't need to remove all of the grass--since naturalised plantings, for species tough enough, could be a lot less work upfront than fully prepared beds..grasses are, if not the toughest weeds here, they are right up there...

i'm hoping simon and chris will chime in, since i think they have seasonally scythed meadows, and that is of great interest to me... do the crocus and similar leaves die back early enough to be able to trim grass when its getting tall?
does, franz mow his meadow in fall?
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Lori S. on March 02, 2010, 06:33:52 AM
The foliage from the earliest bulbs stays green into the beginning of July here (and that of later bulbs can sometimes stay green most of the summer, amazingly), and I think that's one of the main impracticalities of naturalizing small bulbs in lawns in this area.  So, depending how "kempt" the lawn/meadow is meant to be, and how tall the grasses are, that is a definite factor.
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 02, 2010, 06:54:14 AM
The foliage from the earliest bulbs stays green into the beginning of July here (and that of later bulbs can sometimes stay green most of the summer, amazingly), and I think that's one of the main impracticalities of naturalizing small bulbs in lawns in this area.  So, depending how "kempt" the lawn/meadow is meant to be, and how tall the grasses are, that is a definite factor.

that's good to know...
i wouldnt really think of them in any area for regular mowing, but if the grass is being allowed to grow, in anything other than small areas, it might be nice to either mow once in fall or maybe just scythe or clip--even above bulb leaf height--not good to have a build-up of dry grass of any size..probably mostly though,for the small ones, i'd rather plant them with other things that stay small..i will have to experiment with some of the local small Carex species--though they naturally grow (here) in damp to wet and/or wooded areas, they might do well enough in a regular bed, and are quite charming on their own, with their weird little flowers and interesting fruits......

interestingly, last year was so dry at times that one whole side of the property (there is an almost imperceptible slope, but its apparent enough in the vegetation) scarcely needed mowing--except for aspen suckers and red clover clumps! but that's not every year (the other end was lush with white clover and grasses--that is, of non-treed areas, probably more than half -2/3, more? of the roughly 6 acres is natural forest, planted trees and scattered self sown trees)
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Ragged Robin on March 02, 2010, 10:35:50 AM
Last year we cut our alpine meadow slope in August which meant that some late flowerings had time to set seed and I hope will multiply this year.  The joy of letting the meadow grow is not only in the wonderful tapestry of flowers for free but also the birds and butterflies that it attracts - I look forward to this each year.

At the base of the south facing slope I have experimented in planting a few Crocus Vernus (Balkan Dark tip petals), kindly given to me by a Forumist, to see if they like it there and in the hope that the melt water will find them....no sign of growth yet.  Higher up they grow prolifically on the base of a steep sided valley facing South/East...I live in hope  ::)
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: hadacekf on March 02, 2010, 06:01:34 PM
I have already mention my meadow is 40 years old with a limy soil. The Yarrow  cultivated itself like many other weeds. My meadow is not an alpine meadow, but a Mediterranean alpine meadow with a large number of bulbs that well grow.
If the leaves of the bulbs become drying, I mow the lawn. If in the autumn the first flower appear  I stop to mow. I see never a flower of the Yarrow ,
the flowers are always cut off. By cut in summers, the Yarrow  a carpet-like appearance gets. I think in the meadow is a good  relationship between grass, weeds and Yarrow . And that developed in the course of the years automatically.  By the way, in summer looks my meadow not very nice.
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 02, 2010, 06:23:41 PM
Last year we cut our alpine meadow slope in August which meant that some late flowerings had time to set seed and I hope will multiply this year.  The joy of letting the meadow grow is not only in the wonderful tapestry of flowers for free but also the birds and butterflies that it attracts - I look forward to this each year.

At the base of the south facing slope I have experimented in planting a few Crocus Vernus (Balkan Dark tip petals), kindly given to me by a Forumist, to see if they like it there and in the hope that the melt water will find them....no sign of growth yet.  Higher up they grow prolifically on the base of a steep sided valley facing South/East...I live in hope  ::)

robin, had any bulbs in their dried up their foliage? or are you just starting to add bulbs? how tall are your grasses? any photos? i remember you talking about the meadow last year, but don't remember if we saw it...
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 02, 2010, 06:31:21 PM
I have already mention my meadow is 40 years old with a limy soil. The Yarrow  cultivated itself like many other weeds. My meadow is not an alpine meadow, but a Mediterranean alpine meadow with a large number of bulbs that well grow.
If the leaves of the bulbs become drying, I mow the lawn. If in the autumn the first flower appear  I stop to mow. I see never a flower of the Yarrow ,
the flowers are always cut off. By cut in summers, the Yarrow  a carpet-like appearance gets. I think in the meadow is a good  relationship between grass, weeds and Yarrow . And that developed in the course of the years automatically.  By the way, in summer looks my meadow not very nice.

thanks for the details, franz! nice to have a planting that has worked out its own rhythms over that long period of time..
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Ed Alverson on March 02, 2010, 07:09:40 PM
It is worth noting that not all Achillea millefolium is created equally, and if you are interested in using it as a matrix plant in a meadow garden, it is worth selecting the appropriate ecotype for this application.  In fact, what we call Achillea millefolium is a widely distributed (old and new world) species complex with many different cryptic taxa and ecotypes.  There was a classic study by Clausen, Keck, and Heisey in California, where they performed reciprocal transplant experiments with Achillea across an elevation and climate gradient from the Pacific Coast to high elevations in the Sierra Nevada mountains.  Among other results, they found that plants grown from seed collected at an elevation of 11,000 feet were much shorter (15 to 25 cm tall) when grown at low elevations, than were plants grown in the same garden from seed collected at low elevations, which were 50 to 80 cm tall.

Ed
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Susan on March 02, 2010, 07:36:07 PM
Thank you to all who are contributing.  It is giving much food for thought.  I have a lot of white clover, which I have been trying to eradicate, maybe I should leave it as a suitable groundcover and just eliminate grass and weeds.  It does not grow too high and would only ever need a mow on a highish cut. 

Susan
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: hadacekf on March 02, 2010, 07:37:23 PM
My meadow today. My Achillea becomes at the most 30 cm.
Sorry, no sun
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 02, 2010, 08:09:01 PM
Thank you to all who are contributing.  It is giving much food for thought.  I have a lot of white clover, which I have been trying to eradicate, maybe I should leave it as a suitable groundcover and just eliminate grass and weeds.  It does not grow too high and would only ever need a mow on a highish cut. 
Susan

your climate is very different than mine, so perhaps your clover behaves differently--here it is among the most rampant plants in our existing  grassy areas, and one of the most difficult weeds to keep out of any planting,though it is far too abundant to eliminate it; here, i think, it would be much too vigorous to leave in a planting of small bulbs, though perhaps with very tall plants it could  be managed, though i'm not at all sure of that..

ed--good thoughts on achillea; i assumed it would vary over its large range, but i had assumed those plants i have seen in the mountains here (not at the altitudes you mention, though) would grow normal height down here--they may not be sufficiently high clones to be shorter, but i may give them a test run..
i may have ordered another achillea species from the alps, too, would have to check....
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 02, 2010, 08:12:24 PM
My meadow today. My Achillea becomes at the most 30 cm.
Sorry, no sun


lovely! your bulbs have several months more to grow than they do here, very different indeed!
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Ed Alverson on March 02, 2010, 08:30:26 PM

ed--good thoughts on achillea; i assumed it would vary over its large range, but i had assumed those plants i have seen in the mountains here (not at the altitudes you mention, though) would grow normal height down here--they may not be sufficiently high clones to be shorter, but i may give them a test run..
i may have ordered another achillea species from the alps, too, would have to check....
[/quote]

I should also note that there is a recent paper on the evolution of Achillea in North America that provides DNA evidence that the native North American members of the Achillea millefolium aggregate should be recognized as a separate species, Achillea borealis.  Achillea borealis is apparently a relatively recent arrival in North America over the Bering land bridge (during the last 500,000 to 1 million years) but in that time it has rapidly diverged into many different ecotypes over a broad range of habitats.

Ed
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 03, 2010, 07:36:14 AM
I should also note that there is a recent paper on the evolution of Achillea in North America that provides DNA evidence that the native North American members of the Achillea millefolium aggregate should be recognized as a separate species, Achillea borealis.  Achillea borealis is apparently a relatively recent arrival in North America over the Bering land bridge (during the last 500,000 to 1 million years) but in that time it has rapidly diverged into many different ecotypes over a broad range of habitats.
Ed

borealis has a nicer ring to it, maybe i'll start using it prematurely ;)
are there any different flower colour forms that you know of?
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: ian mcenery on March 03, 2010, 09:31:44 AM
My meadow today. My Achillea becomes at the most 30 cm.
Sorry, no sun


Franz your meadow gets better every year

Cohan this is Alpine turf under the Eiger north wall
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on March 03, 2010, 10:06:19 AM
It's a yearly treat to see your meadow Franz !! Cannot get enough of it !  ;)

Ian,
Lovely shot !!
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Ragged Robin on March 03, 2010, 10:52:15 AM
Franz your photos of your meadow are magical in that light, a carpet of treasure, thanks for sharing it  :)
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Lori S. on March 03, 2010, 02:38:30 PM
your climate is very different than mine, so perhaps your clover behaves differently--here it is among the most rampant plants in our existing  grassy areas, and one of the most difficult weeds to keep out of any planting,though it is far too abundant to eliminate it; here, i think, it would be much too vigorous to leave in a planting of small bulbs, though perhaps with very tall plants it could  be managed, though i'm not at all sure of that..

Cohan, bulbs will come up through other plants without any problems.  I'd be more concerned about tall brome grasses that will cover over lower plants, making them hard to see, and also reducing their light.
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: hadacekf on March 03, 2010, 06:14:30 PM
Thank you all together for the kind comments.
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: gote on March 03, 2010, 06:17:15 PM
I try to do the meadow thing but I am far far behind Franz.
My strategy is to cut the meadow in late August before the Crocus speciosus start.
The hay is left a couple of days if the weather is dry in the hope that any seeds fill fall out.
It is then carted away as fodder to his cattle to the guy who keeps most of my land.
I never fertilize since this tends to increase the amount of non-flowering plants.
All around is a path that is moved with a lawn mover.

Problems:
Deer eat the crocuses in the spring.
Voles eat the corms/bulbs.
I get Scilla siberica which I know will take over.

Cheers
Göte

 
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Lesley Cox on March 03, 2010, 08:04:34 PM
Of course if one want's a "lawn" without grass, there is the old thyme lawn thing with additions such as Mentha requienii and many others; flat-growing plants which are loose enough to permit little bulbs to grow through them. I think one could also do an area of just pine or other tree bark with whatever leaves blow onto it, and the bulbs coming through that. The bulbs could be for every season and the bare parts among them would be clean and tidy if the weeds were controlled at the beginning.

Or a similar area with a sandy/gravelly topping.
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Lesley Cox on March 03, 2010, 08:12:11 PM
I don't think I'd want to include clover in a planting of this type. I find it is all-strangling of other plants and will cover to the exclusion of everything else. It's great fodder for sheep though, and smallish plants in my newer part have been chomped by rabbits. This only seems to make the clover grow morer strongly.
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 03, 2010, 09:19:13 PM
Cohan this is Alpine turf under the Eiger north wall

thanks ian, lovely spot;
at that season the grasses are not very prominent, any ideas how much that changes later on?

lori, i'd tend to agree on that, and think that full/tall grass here would just outcompete the bulbs overall--shade and crowding, probably..
which is the reason for looking at other sorts of companion plants in the first place--i think i like the look of grassy foliage with the bulbs, but something low, and not necessarily actual grass!-i don't need to walk on it--i have plenty of places to walk ;)
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 03, 2010, 09:25:12 PM
I try to do the meadow thing but I am far far behind Franz.
My strategy is to cut the meadow in late August before the Crocus speciosus start.
The hay is left a couple of days if the weather is dry in the hope that any seeds fill fall out.
It is then carted away as fodder to his cattle to the guy who keeps most of my land.
I never fertilize since this tends to increase the amount of non-flowering plants.
All around is a path that is moved with a lawn mover.
Problems:
Deer eat the crocuses in the spring.
Voles eat the corms/bulbs.
I get Scilla siberica which I know will take over.
Cheers
Göte

i like the look of this a lot--are these just regular grasses that get tall later on? not too much shade for the bulbs?
my favourite grasses are always when they are dry in offseason...lol not  a big fan of bright green expanses... fresh green shoots in spring i love, but once everything is green its boring...
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Lvandelft on March 03, 2010, 10:09:07 PM
Franz, nice to see your “meadow” in spring again.
Almost unbelievable to see all these flowers flowering in the same place where I was standing with you in last summer.
Servus
Luit
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Lesley Cox on March 04, 2010, 08:01:18 PM
In NZ at least, grass as such, is not really an option for a meadow-type planting in the garden as it grows very fast as soon as there is a hint of spring warmth and crocuses and the like would be over grown and swamped in no time at all, way before they'd finished flowering. I don'r fancy letting in the neighbour's cattle and sheep to keep it down, nor his newly acquired llama who looks about 3 metres tall, is very haughty and makes the most appalling noises.
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: ian mcenery on March 05, 2010, 12:26:00 AM
Cohan this is Alpine turf under the Eiger north wall

thanks ian, lovely spot;
at that season the grasses are not very prominent, any ideas how much that changes later on?



Cohan at that altitude this tends to stay as turf. These areas are often between screes and  were previouly scree now stabilised. If the grasses were more vigorous some of the plants might not survive the competition. The photo was taken in the last week in June so it is a short growing season
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Lori S. on March 05, 2010, 05:32:18 AM
Here's a similar sort of environment, closer to home (~2200-2400m elevation), in a drier area.   The grass species are naturally small, and the harsh conditions contribute, as well, to keeping them compact, no doubt...


 
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Sinchets on March 05, 2010, 03:03:13 PM
One other thing to consider, which I am not sure has been touched on yet is that alpine or montane meadows can spend the winter under snow and growth more or less stops. [sound familiar Cohan?] So when the snow melts the bulbs and spring flowers really do have a headstart on the grasses and perennials. They will continue to grow as the grass grows around them and by the time the grass and perennials are reaching their full height the bulbs are dormant. This will not be the case in climates with no winter snow as the herbaceosu plants can carry on growing through the winter months, albeit more slowly.
We were lucky that the meadow at the top of our garden is a good piece of pasture, which hasn't been seeded with ryegrass like the lower part of the garden. It has grass but it never grows too strong and has maybe 25-30 species of native meadow plants. This is the area we have started to plant with bulbs and Chris' terrestrial orchid collection. The bulbs flower after the snow melts and before the meadow plants start growing and the orchids, which formed their leaf rosettes in autumn, will flower as the grass grows a little taller. I am sure this is not a coincidence as we notice that the cows are put on the pastures after the snow melt, but taken off after it has all been grazed short so that the grass can grow for haymaking. Flowering too early would mean risking being eaten or trampled! We take our cue from the neighbours and cut the grass when the hay is being cut at the end of June. Another cut, as Franz suggested, before the autumn rains leaves the grass short enough for the Colchicums to be seen. This also mimics the cattle being put back on the meadow after the hay has been dried and collected in the summer and early autumn rains have encouraged a fresh flush of greenery. The fact that the pastures are used for grazing only a few times a year helps encourage diversity, and to me it is this diversity which prevents a few of the species taking over to the detriment of the rest. Our upper meadow has Achillea millefolium in it naturally and this never grows as tall as it does on the sides of the ditch outside our property, which are grazed year round by our neighbour's livestock.
I sowed Cyclamen coum into the meadow 4 years ago and forgot about them- until this month as they are flowering for the first time. We will be collecting Crocus, Colchicum and reticulate Iris seed this summer to sow into the meadow, as we hope this will allow the seeds to make their own way into the mat of roots without having to cut through it when planting adult bulbs. The main reason for this being we don't want to make it easy for the voles to find the bulbs!
A mediterranean-type meadow works on a different cycle in that the perennial plants will be growing from autumn to spring and spend the summer dormant as the soil has dried out. You don't need a mediterranean climate to grow "mediterranean" bulbs. Many Crocus, Colchicum and Tulipa from parts of the Med are hardy enough in the open garden and are programmed to flower in autumn or spring- either side of the main period of perennial plant growth. We have mediterranean type plantings here, where the main 'action' is in autumn or spring, with drought tolerant plantings giving attraction during the summer months. These plants are cut back in autumn to allow light and water through to the bulb plantings.
The oldest parts of our garden are now into their 3rd year so we have yet to see how well this will all work, but I have certainly learned that direct sowing of seeds works better than trying to establish plants in the meadow from 'plugs'.
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Ragged Robin on March 05, 2010, 05:11:30 PM
Simon, this is a really interesting and useful report based on your experiences and observations and it is almost identical to meadows here although I think the grasses perhaps grow taller (can be waist high) and there are numerous varieties. The early crocus cover the high meadow floor after snowmelt and as they go over the grass begins to grow.

Seed is definitely the way to go to avoid bulbs being discovered and to let them really establish - I am experimenting with seed this year.  It will also be interesting to see if by leaving our patch until August we get more late flowering wild flowers. 

One thing I find strange is that the next door garden is full of orchids on a bank next to ours but we only have one!  I'm trying to rectify the situation as he sees fit to strim them in flower  :o
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Sinchets on March 05, 2010, 06:16:13 PM
One thing I find strange is that the next door garden is full of orchids on a bank next to ours but we only have one!  I'm trying to rectify the situation as he sees fit to strim them in flower  :o
Do you know what the history of your plot is from before you bought it, Robin. If you have any nearby which set seed you could try collecting seed and scattering it in appropriate places- it worked for us  ;)
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 05, 2010, 07:51:04 PM
tks for the input everone!
lor--lovely shots of a great place-i've looked for seed of naturally low growing grasses, but haven't seen much that looked useful/interesting--though i may have been looking for really tiny things-10-20cm, i might be more easily able to find things that go to 30cm;
i will have to watch for wild seed of small plants--then test them, since i think many of them grow smaller in extreme places than they would here..

simon--grass, and everything else, definitely stops growing over winter! in fact i don't have to mow the grass usually after sometime in august, not late, either--although where other things like clover and the ever present poplar suckers are coming up, it might need later attention..
probably the early bulbs would be able to flower before grass grew much, as it is totally brown and starting from scratch in the spring; however, i don't think your rhythms for cutting would work here, unless it was a high scythe cut, since, as lori mentioned, the bulb foliage would not be finished in june, likely (late june is also haying time here, depending on the year) and native meadow plants  are really just getting going in late june, so i think the only time i could mow a grassy meadow would be after frost! so probably, its looking like, whatever i plant with early bulbs will have to stay low on its own; taller meadow species should be able to hold their own in taller grasses, and i can put them in areas that can just grow free-cutting late just to keep dead grasses from building up; but i'll just have to do some trying and watching..
hopefully we can see some pics of your meadow through the season! yours too, robin :)
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Ragged Robin on March 06, 2010, 10:10:32 AM
One thing I find strange is that the next door garden is full of orchids on a bank next to ours but we only have one!  I'm trying to rectify the situation as he sees fit to strim them in flower  :o
Do you know what the history of your plot is from before you bought it, Robin. If you have any nearby which set seed you could try collecting seed and scattering it in appropriate places- it worked for us  ;)

Thanks Simon,  I'll try that this year if he leaves any to set seed!  I suppose our soil has been more disturbed with building than his back slope and maybe this accounts for the lack of flowers on our bank because I am amazed that the orchids appear each year in wilder patches of the gardens in spite of being strimmed like lawns  :o
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Sinchets on March 06, 2010, 10:18:02 AM
Robin, I suppose the good news may be that strimming and removing the flowerstems could be letting the orchids put energy into making more replacements underground. If you're feeling brave you could always ask your neighbour for permission to transplant some of his orchids into your bank.
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Ragged Robin on March 06, 2010, 11:28:26 AM
I can still appreciate his from a distance but if i did ask when would be the best time to transplant them Simon?
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: gote on March 08, 2010, 01:20:50 PM
In my case, The grasses are naturally occuring meadow grasses. They become knee high or a little less just as the perennials that come naturally. The first picture shows Lilium sachalinense in the grass in July. This flower shape makes a lot of sense in a meadow. The flowers are well visible to pollinators from above but the umbel keeps them all at the same height - out of high winds and the tepals protect the interior from being hit by the grass.
The perennials - including the grasses - start growing later than the bulbs as can be seen in the previous posting. Thus the bulbs have a good start. This lateness is not due to snow but to a generally low winter temperature. At the time I cut the meadow (not with a scyte but with a small hay cutter) the perennials have more or less stopped growing. Usually I cut even shorter with a lawnmover as soon as the hay is taken away.
I enclose a picture of one of the "naturals" and also an overview of the site.
This is of course a lowland meadow and by far not as colurful as the ones in the Alps.
Cheers
Göte
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Sinchets on March 08, 2010, 01:40:56 PM
It always amazes the plasticity of some plants. We have seen Platanthera growing out in grassland in western Scotland, but it never grows like that here always being found in woodland in deep shade. Great to see yours in the open, Gote.
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: gote on March 08, 2010, 01:51:09 PM
It always amazes the plasticity of some plants. We have seen Platanthera growing out in grassland in western Scotland, but it never grows like that here always being found in woodland in deep shade. Great to see yours in the open, Gote.
You probably have higher summer day temperatures than I have. Could that be a reason??
Göte
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 08, 2010, 06:39:08 PM
nice views gote--we have similar habitat here, though grass heights vary in different places; (our platanthera species--locally, i mean, not provincially- grow in open or wooded places, usually damp, and are all rather greenish and not very showy)..
the local lilium philadelphicum looks much the same as your lily, in those views; however, asters are a prominent feature in natural meadows here, and flower mid to late summer, basically up to heavy frost, along with some plants of geranium and solidago..
perhaps a bulb area would simply have to be kept free of late blooming species, or just mow after frost..
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: gote on March 09, 2010, 08:04:18 AM
It always amazes the plasticity of some plants. We have seen Platanthera growing out in grassland in western Scotland, but it never grows like that here always being found in woodland in deep shade. Great to see yours in the open, Gote.
Another idea:
Is your Platanthera bifolia or chlorantha? I have no bifolia at all and when I tried to introduce it it failed.
The chloranthas definitely prefer my meadow and grows also in surprisingly dry areas nearly up to the place where Saxifraga granulata grows naturally.
However, I have single specimen also in the dark forest.
Göte
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: gote on March 09, 2010, 08:11:45 AM
In Sweden we have but a single species of Aster (of course it recently was removed from Aster  :o ) and that in the costal area. What I have is various hieraciums (Some of which recently have been removed from hieracium  :o ) These are so difficult to identify that I do not attempt.  :-\
The reason I cut the perennials down as early as late August is of course that i want my Crocus speciosus to show themselves. I try to cut as late as possible in order to allow seed dispersal.
This is a kind of Scylla/Carybdis situation.
Cheers
Göte
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Sinchets on March 09, 2010, 10:21:37 AM
We have Platanthera bifolia and chlorantha here, both growing in woodlands. I think it must be the higher summer temperatures as many of the other species we would normally think of as grassland species also seem quite happy in woodland at our altitudes. These include Orchis purpurea, simia and pallens and also Himatoglossum. When you gain more altitude the same species are found in montane meadows.
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 09, 2010, 08:02:15 PM
In Sweden we have but a single species of Aster (of course it recently was removed from Aster  :o ) and that in the costal area. What I have is various hieraciums (Some of which recently have been removed from hieracium  :o ) These are so difficult to identify that I do not attempt.  :-\
The reason I cut the perennials down as early as late August is of course that i want my Crocus speciosus to show themselves. I try to cut as late as possible in order to allow seed dispersal.
This is a kind of Scylla/Carybdis situation.
Cheers
Göte

i have only barely attempted to id my asters, since i don't have a good enough reference yet, but i have started to group them at least--so whn i get the reference, i will be halfway there--i suspect there are 3-4 species at least, then probably some natural hybrids; i do have photos of them all, along with locations so i can return to compare later, and seed collected from the different forms--just haven't got all the photos sorted out yet..
aster season (yes, ours are all no longer aster too..lol) issome of the best/most conspicuous flowering of the year, here, with large swathes of roadside painted purple/blue (all our species are in the purple/blue range, some pinker, some bluer, but no true pinks;there are whites too, but they are all in moist areas and not in as large numbers, usually)

i would mow too for fall bulbs if i had them :) asters can have a different space ;)
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: hadacekf on March 24, 2010, 06:36:24 PM
Some plants from my meadow.

Crocus oliveri self sown
Crocus olliveri self sown
Iris reticulata K.Hodgin
Cyclamen coum self sow
Cyclamen coum self sow
Scilla-biflora self sown
Crocus vernus
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Gail on March 24, 2010, 08:35:23 PM
Franz - those are gorgeous pictures, what a lovely variety of plants in your meadow!
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Lesley Cox on March 24, 2010, 08:59:35 PM
I've got used to seeding Crocus and Cyclamen in the alpine meadows but it still surprises me to see reticulate irises. They're responding to Franz's magic touch. No sign of virus there. :)
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on March 25, 2010, 09:16:11 AM
Wonderful.. simply wonderful !
Thanks Franz !
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: hadacekf on March 25, 2010, 07:28:50 PM
Thank you all together for the kind comments.
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Ragged Robin on March 26, 2010, 02:01:01 PM
Franz , your meadow looks spectacular and it must be so satisfying to see it grow and develop over the years with self sown seedlings  :)
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: hadacekf on March 29, 2010, 07:09:46 PM
Some self sown plants from my meadow.

Primula-acaulis
Viola-canina-ssp.-montana
Anemone-blanda
Chionodoxa-gigantea
Scilla-nana
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: bendgardener on March 30, 2010, 05:01:39 PM
Great thread.  I started my first attempt last fall.  It looks like I need to continue to add species and see how they shake out.  I used a native fescue grass as a basic ground cover and added about 1,100 crocus to start.  The comments on the differences between varieties of yarrow is good information as it can become invasive in my area.   I think I will add some of the native strawberry plants that do so well here this spring. 
Bob Crain
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on March 30, 2010, 06:58:15 PM
Great thread.  I started my first attempt last fall.  It looks like I need to continue to add species and see how they shake out.  I used a native fescue grass as a basic ground cover and added about 1,100 crocus to start.  The comments on the differences between varieties of yarrow is good information as it can become invasive in my area.   I think I will add some of the native strawberry plants that do so well here this spring. 
Bob Crain

1100 sounds like a good start! wild strawberry sounds like a good idea too; here also it is a super common plant,from full shade to nearly full sun, generally overlooked, yet quite appealing when you look at it!
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Bob Resch on April 23, 2010, 01:32:59 AM
Just came across this thread - I live in a suburb of Chicago, IL, Zone 5b with about 36" on annual precipitation, In 2007,  I replaced an 45' x 25' lawn area with a purchased seed mix of 40% Dwarf Perennial Ryegrass,40% Eureka Hard Fescue, 10% Assorted Flowers (Pink English Daisy, Baby Blue Eyes, & Sweet Alyssum),5% White Yarrow, 5% Salina Strawberry Clover. Through preparation was done to eliminate weeds the season before. The first season of growth I allowed the plants to have their head and sadly the Achillea (Yarrow) dominated. I did not mow the first season and the yarrow topped out at 18-24" with blooms but suppressed all the other species. In 2008 I mowed the growth to 4" at about 10 week intervals. The yarrow did not bloom but some of the flowering plants returned. The mowed yarrow looks soft and feathery, to me a nice improvement over turf. Plus it is drought tolerant. The same mowing practice was followed in 2009 and the flowering species are more prevalent though not overly present. In 2008 Fall I planted Daffodils and crocus in the perimeter areas and some in the center. These have thrived though mowing was delayed until late spring to give daffodils a recovery period. I like what has evolved but I am unhappy with the dominance of the yarrow. It is my belief the seed mix was poorly controlled, correspondence to the company went unanswered. This season I will overseed with a Red Feacue spreading a pound of seed over the stated area and incorporate a few native plants into the space to improve the monocultural appearance.
After all is said and done I encourage converting turf to a colony that is more self sufficient. But be aware, neighbors may look down their noses at the transition. At least some of mine did to the extent of notifying our village of an unkempt lawn. Once I explained my goal and intent to maintain the area within village standards no further problems have come my way.
You may look at a Wisconsin nursery website, (These are not the people from whom I purchased my seed and have had good success from plant purchase) Prairie Nursery in westfield, WI. They have a number of seed mixes that  may find of interest. 
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Maggi Young on April 23, 2010, 11:51:15 AM
Hello Bob and a warm welcome to you!

Interesting to hear your experience with this project in Illinois...... good luck with your ongoing fescue work  :D  Glad you have the neighbours in training now ;D

 We'll be hoping for photos!
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Bob Resch on April 29, 2010, 09:49:11 PM
Reference post of 23 April 2010- Attached are a couple of photos taken in last two days. The recent rains have brought the Yarrow up quickly. In some areas it has broken out of its corral and it is necessary to head in back in. Once established the plant is a bit aggressive. Here and there are what I call "English Daisies" Bellis perennis
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: Maggi Young on April 29, 2010, 10:44:43 PM
Goodness, Bob.... that is lush growth!
I'm glad to see your flock is already increasing.... looks like you're going to need all the wooly munchers you can recruit.... or knit..... ;)
Title: Re: Alpine Meadows
Post by: cohan on April 30, 2010, 07:40:24 AM
Reference post of 23 April 2010- Attached are a couple of photos taken in last two days. The recent rains have brought the Yarrow up quickly. In some areas it has broken out of its corral and it is necessary to head in back in. Once established the plant is a bit aggressive. Here and there are what I call "English Daisies" Bellis perennis

interesting--the yarrow does seem very aggressive..
here, there is naturally occurring Achillea, and it is very widespread and commonly occurring, but it seldom forms particularly notable clumps, even, nevermind large patches like that, i guess the other local species are just as aggressive :) i'd actually like to give it a few sq feet somewhere to form a nice stand-as much for the overwintering dried flowerstalks as anything--i actually notice them most in the spring..
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