Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Meconopsis => Topic started by: robsorchids on August 18, 2009, 06:35:04 PM
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After having great success (finaly thanks to susan) with these wonderfull plants i would love to try M.punicea, the flowers are just gorgeous, however i dont know of any suppliers, or how difficult it is to grow compared to the more associated blue species?
sheldonii 'lingholm' flowered well here, as quintuplinerva has done well too
rob
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I think the key to success, Rob, is probably very fresh seed. I have yet to get it to germinate here in the East of England and that is probably why :(
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Rob - Fresh M. punicea seed seems to be as rare as some snowdrops. I've never had a single one germinate from the exchanges. I'll let you and Brian know if I find some, hope I am not too late.
johnw
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It is indeed monocarpic. However it is rumoured that a perennial variety is growing somewhere.
I have been able to grow it from the meconopsis group seed exchange - but not many.
I give it the same treatment as quintuplinervia. It is not a great success but the colour is unique.
I might have a few fresh seeds very soon. Give me your address privately I MIGHT get some surplus.
Göte
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i suppose when plants are monocarpic is makes them so the more difficult to find, especialy when that plant is difficult to raise from seed!
i suppose the easiest method would be to find young seed grown plants.
the perrenial variety sounds wonderfull, hopefully that will one day become available!
But the perennial variety poses another problem: it is likely to become more and more virused and weak over the years and then disappear totally.
Tissue culture has saved any number of old, weak plants with high virus titers, but it can't be guaranteed to work - and you still have the problem of having only one clone in cultivation.
Years ago, I read an interesting comment somewhere: that when you take seeds collected in the wild and sow them, you are already, in that first generation, exerting strong selection pressures for plants that are happy in gardens. It seems to me the moral is that we should grow as many plants from seed as possible, because with each succeeding generation the progeny will become easier to grow.
Of course, this too poses risks, particularly of hybridisation, but also of gradual displacement of "wild forms" by forms selected for brighter, bigger flowers and other desirable characteristics. You simply can't win but at least you can go down with a struggle!
In another thread, I commented on someone's picture of Cosmos atrosanguinea. Apparently all plants in cultivation are a single clone and at one time it was believed to be extinct in the wild. However, within the last few years an expedition to Mexico from a California botanic garden found it and collected seed. But where has that seed gone? Where can I get a plant of a different clone to cross-pollinate my own sterile specimen with? A classic example of the risks posed by raising "perennial forms".
Postscript: There is a famous strain of garden delphiniums named after various chivalric archetypes. (I forget the strain's name, but I'm sure most of us know what I mean.) The management of this strain was described in detail in the old Penguin-RHS handbook on delphiniums: one year, seedlings would be raised; the next year, vegetative propagation would be used; and so on, alternating between seed and vegetative propagation.
The idea was to keep the individual cultivars comprising the strain up to snuff both with regard to seed production (and thus health) and perenniality. If my recollections of this account are sound, the comment was also made that once this strain was taken over by some corporate interest, they dropped the vegetative stage as being too costly, but in the process to a large degree sacrificed the perennial habit.
For us rock gardeners, seed production even of plants easily propagated by cuttings or division is important because of the gradual tightening of restrictions on international trade in plants. Canadians can no longer import plants from any nursery in Britain because the potato cyst nematode is ubiquitous there and no nurseryman is prepared to pay for the exhaustive examination of his soil that phytosanitary regulations require. Thus seed is the only legal way to go. I'm looking very hard at a few small teucrium species: T. aroanum, T. marum, T. subspinosum; in the hopes of finding viable seed but so far things don't look promising. But I'll keep trying.
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Hi all, very interesting discussion about Meconopsis punicea, firstly the seed set here this year has been very poor the wet weather has rotted most of the seed pods. I would also like to inform you that i have a plant collected from a wild source in 2003 which has been perennial since then it send out runners like M. quintuplinervia but not so many, it was suggested by the powers that be it is a hybrid well it sets seed and we have some very good seedlings. We must wait until next year to see if these will be perennial as well, the flower colour is not such a striking red but quite a few flowers have 8 petals instead of 4 I showed this to Joint rock at Aberdeen this year so here is a picture, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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Green with envy Ian
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Rodger, Also a perennial punicea can be expected to set seed.
Ian, I did not want to say who had it to avoid causing too large crowds clamoring at your doors
Cheers
Göte
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Hi again, i have divided my perrrenial M. punicea several times and given away quite a few rossettes to good growers so I hope this plant will get passed around a wider group eventually. I always add some new compost to the next set of young plants I put in the garden this seems to keep them strong setting more little runners. I do agree that if we left the plants in one area for a long time they would die out but this is so with several other plants and why we are all passionate about keeping these treasures alive, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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Hello.
I post some photos of M.punicea flowered in my garden in Sapporo. The form of Flora Plena is not stable.
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Fantastic pictures and stunning plants, Tetsuo.
Welcome to the forum
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My very favourite plant Tetsuo. Welcome to the forum and thank you for the great pictures.
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Tetsuo
I agree with Brian - the Holy Grail it is.
Wonderful picturess and thanks.
johnw
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Tetsuo,
I'll join the others in a hearty well-done. Even if the 'flora plena' form is unstable, it must be a thrill to have it pop up from time to time. Absolutely gorgeous...
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Hi again Tetsuo, very interesting picture with these full double flowers, I have raised a few like this only once but we do have a M. punicea perennial form from Stone mountain in China which produces some flowers with 8 petals, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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Thanks for replies, Olegkon, Brian, Johnw, Carlo, and Ian.
I have never been to China and never seen wild punicea. Are they perennial in wild? In my garden they are not perennial. There are two forms of the seedlings. Most are typical one rosetto type and a few are multi type. I attach two pictures. I expect to raise perennial form,but both are not perennial in my garden in Sapporo.
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Hi Tetsuo, we have only ever heard of this one perennial M. punicea which is not as good a red as your pictures. I am sure that other perennil forms do occur in the wild but have no chance to go back to to Stone mountain perhaps one day, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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Hi again, we now have several meconopsis flowering in the garden so I post some pictures of the M. punicea perennial form and M. punicea as we know it. cheers Ian the Christie kind
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Simply wonderful Ian :)
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Real beauties Ian !! :D
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Hi Tetsuo, we have only ever heard of this one perennial M. punicea which is not as good a red as your pictures. I am sure that other perennil forms do occur in the wild but have no chance to go back to to Stone mountain perhaps one day, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
A question Ian: Is the perennial punicea fertile?
Göte
PS
Did I tell you that the second form of Pteridophyllum I got from you started to flower on its fourth year in my place?
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How does the wild-collected perennial form compare to the 7/8ths hybrid? I have one like this (http://www.meconopsisworld.co.uk/species/M_punicea_20.html) that is still alive and putting up new growth after flowering last summer, but if it's just a freak or a true perennial remains to be seen...
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I am new to this website and answering old questions may be a waste of time. However- this is one of the easiest species (punicea) to grow here in the east of Scotland. I have grown many thousands of plants over the years; they like a nice rich bed with lots of rotted organic matter. The seed grows on rapidly, completely tolerates pricking on when the first true leaves form and needs planting out as soon as of reasonable size. It always appears to be biennial and small plants still flower. THE DIFFICULTY IS GERMINATION Seed stored cool and dry and sown in January may produce a few seedlings and if none maybe a few the next year. The trick is to sow it immediately the seed pods open - late June here - BUT wait for the pods to open as much Mec seed does not germinate if the pods are picked evemn slightly unripe. I sow in a large tray since seed is plentiful, cover the top with a thin layer of compost and then place the tray in total cool shade protected from rain. A fine net mesh is then placed over the top of the tray and about 10cms compost or soil placed on the top and the whole thing kept moist - but no more- right up until December. I then put the tray with the net removed in a cold grrenhouse and very often seed will germinate in the cold by mid January. I then apply a little bottom heat (all my other Mecs are now in the same greenhouse) - germination and growth is usually rapid and after that they are no trouble. James Cobb.
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James, welcome to the Forum.
I can assure you that although some topics may have lain dormant for awhile, there is always interest when we have someone such as yourself to add further light on the subject.
Thank you!
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I received some M.punicea seed from Norway in late 2009 and sowed it straight away leaving it to be frozen under the bench in an unheated greenhouse. It germinated in February and grew away strongly producing about twenty plants.
I was surprised how easily they took to being pricked out but this was of great benefit to them and spurred them on.
I shared these with a friend who looked after them whilst I was on holiday and during which time he potted them on for me. They have made very large plants and are now in the garden(apart from three still in large pots) and I am hopefull of them flowering next year.
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PS It certainly helps if you hand pollinate - the flowers are often quite closed and one rarely sees pollinating insects on them. I also find the biggest and strongest plants set seed most reliably. Also I see I need to be more careful with spellcheck - sorry! James Cobb
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Out with the camera today. First time since last Sunday. Was pleased to see these Meconopsis punicea have recovered well after being frosted in late January or early February. They started growing very fast when we had some relatively mild weather after the snow went and got caught by a severe frost again.
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@Roma
They really look fine - thank you for sharing.
Due to your post I read the whole thread and was amazed to read, that M. punicea spreads out with runners... I think I should try this Meconopsis too.
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My plants today in the garden. They are all in early bud low down in the rosettes.
I received the seed from Norway in September 09 and sowed it the same day. They germinated early 2010 and grew away rapidly with constant potting on. I planted these out last September ,kept three in pots as a safeguard and gave the rest to a friend. Those in pots are not as good having been protected over the winter in a frame and the friends have been eaten by rabbits.
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Some Meconopsis punicea raised from seed from Arisaema in Norway in autumn 2009. The first to flower centre left is clearly a hybrid but the others look correct. Either way very pleasing.
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Some Meconopsis punicea raised from seed from Arisaema in Norway in autumn 2009.
No wonder I've been unsuccessful to date, I've been planting Meconopsis punicea seed. ;)
I've never had a single seed sprout and have received fresh seed from Tromso too. Yours are magical Tony. Congrats.
johnw
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I've only ever had germination from my own harvested seed, from a plant which I bought in the first place (long gone now). If sown fresh it germinates 8 months later in the first and second week of August. Consistently. So early spring. I've never had one germinate from an Arisaema though. ;D
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Here it germinates beginning of Feb every year. I haven't noted the exact date but I am pretty sure it would be within the same week every year. If you don't have fresh seed it might wait another year but will still germinate that week. That is the mystery of seed. I wonder if yours Lesley is exactly 6 months different.
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Well yes it is Susan, your Feb is my August. For 4 years I noted in my book that it started on August 8th but this last year it was on the 6th.
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Day length must be the answer, so many days to germination after the shortest day. I know some vegetables respond to day length.
susan
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So very nice to see your images. Thanks! There is still a couple of weeks before the puniceas will flower here.
Ian,
Your perenial form looks very interesting. For how many years have you had it?
Hi Tetsuo, we have only ever heard of this one perennial M. punicea which is not as good a red as your pictures. I am sure that other perennil forms do occur in the wild but have no chance to go back to to Stone mountain perhaps one day, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
I know that Peter Korn in Sweden used to grow a perennial form of punicea. This form had also more petals then then the usual ones. If I remember it right it had the same beautiful red colors as the beautiful ones Tetsuo showed . I dont know if he is still gowing it. I hope that he does!
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Hi all, sorry for such a long delay with a reply but we have been very busy with everything. The M. punicea perennial first flowered in 2005 and is almost about to flower now so will post some pictures soonest. The plant is different to the usual form as it produced runners which I detach in early April these may only have two or three leaves but have all grown well it also produces seed without any hand pollination not all the seedling become perennial anyway pictures soon, cheere Ian the Christie kind.
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i only had one Meconopsis punicea last year and though I got seed it did not look big enough or plump enough to be viable so instead of sending any to the exchanges I sowed the lot and now have 88 seedlings!!!!
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I sowed the lot and now have 88 seedlings!!!!
Wow! That will be a picture when they flower.
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i only had one Meconopsis punicea last year and though I got seed it did not look big enough or plump enough to be viable so instead of sending any to the exchanges I sowed the lot and now have 88 seedlings!!!!
How did you treat them to make them germinate so quickly? They sometimes wait until the second spring. Sow immediately? how many warm months did you have between sowing and winter?
Göte
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[How did you treat them to make them germinate so quickly? They sometimes wait until the second spring. Sow immediately? how many warm months did you have between sowing and winter?
Göte
The seed was sown fresh in July and germinated in February. As far as I remember the weather did not get really cold till late November when we had snow and the temperature dropped very suddenly. The pot was in a closed cold frame with snow cover for about 5 or 6 weeks.
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Thank you.
It was as I thought then. They had a sufficient long period in reasonably warm soil before the winter set in.
It means that in my climate, where the seeds are ripe later and winter sets in earlier I should sow immediately and keep them out of the cold unitil Chrismas or so.
I will try to remember ;)
Göte
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Hi James
I was just talking this morning about trying to multiply my plants so it was good to hear how you multiply your plants. I was lucky enough to get some plants from Maureen Wilson ( a good grower of punicea ) and am delighted with them.
When you say Punicea is one of the easiest to grow in the east of Scotland that is good news to my ears.
As for the spelling who cares, I make more spelling mistakes than most people do. I blame this iPad, it changes my words. ::) ;D
Anyway nice that you have joined us here. Looking forward to see some lovely pictures of your M.punicea soon.
Angie :)
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Hello
I sow the seeds of M.punicea in two ways.
First way is to sow as soon as possible when it is ripe in June or July .
Second way is to sow in December after keeping them in a little wet condition.
They can germinate in both ways . But the percentage of germination is much better
in the first way.
Tetsuo
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To add a few comments on growing M. punicea, but not repeat the findings of others:
The pollen is brown, so if your paintbrush is brown you might not spot it. Hand pollinating needs to be carried out daily. The amount of pollen can vary according to the age of the flower and weather conditions on any particular day.
Viable seed is big by comparison with M. betonicifolia - more the size of M. ‘Lingholm’. However, if you scatter the cleanings, you may get the odd plant come up as a ‘self’ sown seedling which will go on to flower. Sown as soon as harvested, they are one of the first to germinate in February.
After pricking out, keep them closely covered in warmth and humidity until re-established, then wean them off to cooler and open conditions gradually. They can be planted into the ground direct from 5cm cells in late summer, the closer the better for a good display. i.e. treat them like bedding plants. Done this way, it is admittedly labour intensive, but is the best way to maintain a good genetic diversity.
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Maureen thanks for this information, you did tell me today what to do but at least I can copy this into my file now.
Maureen hopefully will post a better picture of her punicea to show everyone. It was very sunny in her garden so it was difficult to take a good picture but here is my picture.
Angie :)
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Thanks for pic and advice, all friends ! :D
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My first Meconopsis punicea for this year opened today. Unfortunately it's too windy to get a decent pic. I thought I had four plants but the 'Perennial form' has turned out to be Meconopsis quintuplinervia. ??? I thought the leaves looked different but did not count the nerves tillI saw the blue flower today.
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Might someone be able to spare a tiny pinch of fresh seed of this magnificent Meconopsis?
Lovely photos everyone. I've seen it live at the Milde Arboretum and in Tromsø and it was absolutely magical.
johnw - (no ☼)
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i have three Meconopsis punicea flowering this year. One did not flower as a biennial last year and is a multi rosetted plant but I am not sure if it will be perennial. The flowers are multipetalled on shorter stalks than the others and not so attractive.
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Following on from the discussion on germination,I sowed mine immediately it was ripe in early June and some are now germinating. Perhaps not what I want. Most of the old plants which flowered look very healthy still.
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Some years ago I received seed of M.punicea that had been stored for awhile . I sowed the seed and left it outside with the other Mec seed but the punicea tray was the only one that didn't germinate . In autumn I put the tray aside to be thrown out but being incurably lazy I forgot to .In early August (or February for you lot ) I noticed the tray again and by now it had a lovely crop of some weedy grass in it . So I sprayed it with Roundup and 4 weeks later I had a lovely germination of M.punicea . Another win for Gardenianum neglectus .
The plants grew rapidly and I gave half to Peter and Louise Salmond at Hokonui Alpines . They increased these nicely by using hand pollination . Gardenianum
exactus . The pictures were taken at Hokonui Alpines ( love you Lou :) :) :))
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Terrific "spread" of punicea, Steve. Hokonui nursery is a place I'd like to see.
I rotated your sideways picture for you... worried folks would fall off their chairs craning their necks to see! ;D ;)
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Thanks boss . Love you too :) :) :)
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My goodness and they fantastic en masse, thanks for showing us Steve.
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When I sow fresh Mec punicea seed it invariably starts to germinate on August 8th, or 10th latest. (Again, Feb for you up there ;))
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I have just potted the first twenty five seedlings from a June 15th sowing and there are lots more germinating in the grit topdressing. Perhaps I now need advice on how to stop them until February The original seed which I received from Bjornar was sown in June and did germinate the following spring
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My perverse little M. punicea is flowering today (mid-September) ... only one plant, but still quite pretty ...
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Very nice Cliff.
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Better than many or most perversions. :)
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Better than many or most perversions. :)
... But not ALL, Lesley? ;D
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depends where one's tastes lie. :-\
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I have a few Meconopsis punicea grown from my own seed showing buds. No two look the same. The three following arethe most diverse. The fourth pic is Meconopsis x cookei 'Satin'. I am intrigued by its two tone furry stem.
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They look really interesting Roma but then, any M punicea is a good M. punicea.
This is using the Quick Reply which is great, taking much less time to load the Reply box, but in spite of the note that smileys can still be used, I dont see any.
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This is using the Quick Reply which is great, taking much less time to load the Reply box, but in spite of the note that smileys can still be used, I don't see any.
Smileys are visible when one clicks "Preview" from the quick reply box.
The Quick Reply box is only visible to those who have enabled it in their profiles. :)
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Hello!
Some weeks ago I discovered an unusual M. punicea in my garden. This one did not have the usual nodding flowers and this plants flower was totally open as it is normally. I have asked my friend Finn Hauglid about this feature, but he has never seen anything like this. It would be interesting to hear if any else has seen this variety before.
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Hello, just been out in the garden very hard frosts with bright sunshine what we would call a great tattie lifting day. I noticed several Meconopsis flowering so am posting the pictures, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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I've had lots of flowers on Meconopsis x cookei 'Old Rose' and M.quituplinervia recently.
My Meconopsis punicea did not do well this year with few flowers on small plants which did not survive long.
Two plants did not flower and one is showing buds now. The other has gone dormant and looks like a proper M. punicea. I am not sure if the one about to flower is punicea. I wrapped some fleece round it tonight and may lift it tomorrow and take it into the greenhouse.
The first two pictures were taken on September 20th and the one with the buds yesterday.
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M.punicea and M. horiddula.
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Hey Doug
You finally have the horridula flowering! Great isn't it? Some of mines flowered a last time during late september, and were of the loveliest light violet-pink, after having had the more regular blue flowers in the early season.
Congratulations also for the punicea, which is even more attractive, of course!
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Thanks mate, loving them both! Hopefully there will be a good supply of seed!
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Most of the buds on the Meconopsis punicea I took into the greenhouse in October aborted but one is flowering now. It is very cheering to see bright red flowers at this time of year. I hope the plant survives. I may have been better to leave it in the ground and hope it did go to sleep before the weather turned nasty.