Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Pleione and Orchidaceae => Topic started by: Anthony Darby on April 05, 2009, 10:28:35 PM
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Had some fun pollinating Ophrys tenthredinifera this afternoon, using a wooden cocktail stick. Then I went into the greenhouse the repeat the trick with my Barlia robertiana, only to find a bumble bee (Bombus terrestris) had beaten me to it.
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Wow, these are very nice indeed! Are you living near that places? You are really lucky then..
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Lovely to see the orchids in the wild.
Here is one of mine in captivity
Ophrys scolopax
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Mr Hristo,
I have dribbled over my laptop & am holding you personally responsible! >: :-[( The bill will be in the post unless more photos of this ilk (& of your home sowing techniques) are forthcoming! (I shall equip myself with a bib in preparation) ;) ;D
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Anthony,
Beautifully grown plants, congratulations! Do you do anything that helps the leaves stay green & active with your Ophrys ? These tenthredinifera look immaculate. I find most of my Ophrys are pretty tatty in the leaf department by flowering time.
Great Bumblee Bee shot. It seems like a pretty tough life, weighed down with mites on one side and beautiful bluey pollinia on the other. I'm feeling especially sympathetic towards Bees tonight, having just watched the incredible Natural World programme about the Giant Hornet in Japan. If anyone hasn't seen it, it's on the IPlayer at the mo. & apart from everything else, features the astonishing pollination strategy of Cymbidium pumilum: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0079736/Natural_World_Buddha_Bees_and_the_Giant_Hornet_Queen/
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Nice one Tony! Will you give it a go outdoors if it bulks up?
Not unless you can convince me its a bog plant! Outside is instant death here.
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dear Hristo, I see you are an orchid sower. Am I right? Could I make you happy with some O.apifera seed? Or is that too common for you as a specialist?
I have some friends with more Ophrys species, I could ask them what they have to offer...
What media do you use? M&S? BM? We could exchange some recepies for media we use...
Greetings, Guus
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hi Hristio
when I lived in Notts(I wish I still did) it was very dry just Lincolnshire.My garden is wet heavy clay and it rained nearly every day last year which is great for lots of plants but not for ophrys. I have dactylorhiza as weeds in every possible place.I am sat typing this because it is raining!
Orchis and ophrys are much to expensive to take a chance with and only rarely obtainable.Apart from a couple of species they never increase with me.
here are pictures of another three probably wrongly named
Ophyrs scolopax
Orchis italica
Orchis morio
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Wonderful Orchids!!
Here is Orchis sancta- an east Mediterranean species.
It has a very nice fragrance!
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Anthony,
Beautifully grown plants, congratulations! Do you do anything that helps the leaves stay green & active with your Ophrys ? These tenthredinifera look immaculate. I find most of my Ophrys are pretty tatty in the leaf department by flowering time.
Great Bumblee Bee shot. It seems like a pretty tough life, weighed down with mites on one side and beautiful bluey pollinia on the other. I'm feeling especially sympathetic towards Bees tonight, having just watched the incredible Natural World programme about the Giant Hornet in Japan. If anyone hasn't seen it, it's on the IPlayer at the mo. & apart from everything else, features the astonishing pollination strategy of Cymbidium pumilum: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... net_Queen/
Hi Craig
I just grow them in the frost-free greenhouse in very well drained 80% inorganic mix (mostly perlite). This season I put a gritty JI3 mix in the bottom third of the pot. I have some others flowering soon.
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;D Lots more great photos. As I mentioned before, the recent DNA testing which indicated only 10 distinct species of Ophrys & the sheer variation that can come from one selfed seed pod make me less than inclined to get into the game of trying to work out which Delforgian species is which (although it is a lovely book) Add to that the enormous potential for naturally occurring hybrids in an Orchid paradise like Greece...
Very interesting that you used to grow Serapias lingua outside Hristo. I seem to have lost about 90 of my pot grown 95 S.lingua this winter & thought it was the harsh frost we had this year which had done for them. S.neglecta & cordigera were in the sand plunge though & look fine.
Tony:In the Pedersen & Faurholdt book on Ophrys, Richard Manuel says he grows Ophrys successfully in his garden on heavy clay but on a bank steep enough to avoid inundation in heavy rain. The pain of losing these little beauties is always felt in the wallet as well, as you point out. Just keep sowing into that Cyclamen pot though & you'll soon be supplying all of us!
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Hristo, Tony, Miriam
great photos of so many lovely species, certainly the Peloponnese is one paradise on Earth.
Here it is Orchids time as well with many species in bloom at the same time, attached a few samples.
more to come....
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Oron,
Fantastic photos!
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Almost as big as Serapias neglecta?
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Oron great pictures,you are so far ahead of us here. My cephalanthra and epipactis are just putting their nose above the soil.
Dactylorhiza sambucina (romana) purple form
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Thanks Miriam,
Tony, bloom starts according to the elevation, plants at 300-500 start to flower 3-4 weeks before the ones at 700-1000m.
That gives us the opportunity to enjoy some species over a long period.
For example the first Hyacinths orientalis i sow this year was at the end of November at 750m, while last week i have seen it only starting to flower on Mt. Hermon at 1700m [that is four months later..].
By the way Dactylorhiza romana is extremely rare here, there are only 2 colonies having the total of 20-40 plants!!!
It grows abundantly in Cyprus.
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Hi Tony,
Your Dactylorhiza is D.sulphurea pseudosambucina or D.romana is ok too. D.sambucina and D.romana are separate species.
As an add on the pics I first posted here of D.sambucina were in fact a mixed colour population of D.romana, in Bulgaria only pink ( so far ) and in Orons' area only yellow.
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Hi here is some input from Sweden. No dactylorhizas visable and only the buds of the Cypripedium.
The older more interesting input comes from Portugal where I went on an excursion with the APO (Portuguese association of Orchidophiles) to the Serra de Aires some 120 km North of Lisbon. It was on the fourth of April 4/4.
We visited several places and had people with local knowledge with us as well as orchid experts. All is a nature protected land.
The first stop was on the planes and we walked along a gravel road and just went of to see the plants.
There was a lot of Barley Robertiana but most were after their prime.
I also saw my first ever Ophrys :) It was Ophrys lutea that grew in most of the places we visited.
Next we saw one (1) Aceras anthropophorum (Orchis anthropophora) later in the next place we also saw 1 but in the fourth and fifth places we saw a lot.
Then they discovered a second type of Ophrys wich they called O. vernixia. In the book by author who joined us it is also listed as O. speculum subsp lusitanica but he called it vernixia.
There we also saw some Orchis mascula.
On the way back to the car we saw Iris germanica var florentina or I. albicans. Actually looked almost like a mix but due to branching I went for the first. By the parked car was also some muscari.
EDIT LATER we saw Ophrys tenthredinifera close to the Ophrys vernixia.
To be continued
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The trip from the first to the second place was lovely with a lot of Barlia and Orchis both italica and mascula in several colours along the way. This was orchid spotting from the car.
The second place was similar in apperance to the first but a bit more inclination.
Here we saw Orchis champagneuxii and it has a devine colour of much darker purple than I have seen on orchids before.
I have 2 pics of it one to show the flower and the other to show the colour since my camera (Olympus my) often gives better colour for the blue purple when I am aiming on the side.
We also saw a lot of Orchis papilionacea in bud but none open. The Orchis conica was all overbloomed except one that was on the other side of the road where we saw some more mascula. All the mascula had plain foliage but the ones in Coimbra had spotted.
Below was also some Ophrys lutea and Ophrys that they called speculum that in the book is called O. ciliata.
The difference from vernixi is that vernixi goues out in the botom while speculum goes in. A bit like male and female in humans so to say.
Going down in the valey we saw more Orchis italica and 1 O. conica. There were plenty of Ophrys lutea and maybe one-two more speculum.
Here we also saw some narcissus (posted in the narcissus thread) and on the way back we saw some Paeonia broteroi (posted in the paeonia thread).I also climbed the lose rocks to see more paeonnias and her I saw a narcissus and a Aceras anthropophorum. There was also a very white Orchis italica but a little light pink obn the back stopped it from being true alba.
We were collected by the others and continued.
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We contined on a road that had moutain on one side and nothing on the other for a while. Here we saw a lot of orchids growing in the mountain crevises.
We stopped and saw some Neotinea maculata. on this specimen the foliage is very spotted. The flowers are very small but the spike was tall so I had to take it in two pictures ::)
We also saw some scilla and other bulbs here.
At this time we had lost half the people they went back to Lisbon. (Their great loss I would say since there is more treasures to see)
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On the fourth stop my oldest son was sleeping so I had the Younger on my shoulders and my wife waited in the car.
Taking photos with 12 kg extra on Your shoulders are not the easiest but possible.
Here we vent in to a valley and saw some Cephalanthera longifolia. They were in two groups of two (total 4).
We also saw Aceras anthropophorum in some numbers here.
We also saw 1 iris here see the iris thread.
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I presume You all realised that it was the same three Aceras anthropophorum I took picture of.
The fifth stopped was a clearing close to a village.
Here it was a lot of bubs muscary of different apperance but also the iris.
We saw here a lot of Aceras anthropophorum and some "fat" O. italica and a readhead as well.
The main show here was the Limodorum (abortivum). I presume it is this species since it look like this but only the first part of the name was used.
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Hi Joakim,
Thanks for the guided tour, so many species on a day trip!
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The last part of the trip went to the guide who showed his orchid house and his lovely garden.
Defenately my kind of garden. We saw here the foliage of Ophrys apifera (the owner had seen the bloom in his lawn) and Epipactis tremolsi identified on the rounder foliage compared to lusitanica. The Epipactis grows in more woodlike condition. We also saw two Limodorum that was not open and most likely one of them never opens so it is self-polinated.
The owner had selvaged some orchids when a garage was built and they were in pots. There was a blooming Orchis papilionacea.
After this tea and cake. It was a super day and I enjoyed it a lot.
There is an older travel account from this mountains in places to visit.
I am a bit surpriced that we did not see any Ophrys hybrids considering they were blooming so close together. They they had different colour and may not have the same polinator. There was no other hybrids amongst the Orchis either even though these are known.
To be cruel it was no dactylorhiza or even buds of cyripedium so at least of the latter there were more in my garden.
I presume that we would only have visited the first two places without the guides if even that many. It was great pleasure to have so many people with knowledge and interest to spread it around.
Kind regards
Joakim
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Hristo just paying back after having enjoyed so many other expeditions by the contributers here.
We did go around a bit to see this and it was a full day from 9 to 9 inccluding the 90 minutes trip bacjk and forth from Lisbon. 4 Ophrys and 5-6 Orchis Barlia and Cephalanthera longifolia and the special Limodorum and to that some more in foliage was very good. Not having the local knowledge we would have found Ophrys lutea, Barlia, Orchis italica and mascula. From before I had seen only Orchis mascula and Aceras anthropophorum. I was a bit surprised that we did not see more of the latter. We did see it in 4 places but only in one was it a lot of it.
Local knowledge is vital to see the things one wants to see.
Kind regards
Joakim
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Wonderful, wonderful pics everyone. The Ophrys, the Dactylorhiza, the Serapias..... I think I've died and gone to heaven. So many things I get to see here that I've never seen before. Thanks All!!
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Here is my Orchis purpurea blooming in the greenhouse. A far more robust orchid than I expected!
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Hi Anthony,
Nicely flowered given your northerly location, I am intrigued, do you grow under lights? Also wondering when this first showed above ground for you, here there is no sign of the nose until late February as the snows begin to clear.
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Not grown under lights, just in a frost free greenhouse. As with Anacamptis pyramidalis and Orchis mascula, they are winter green, with leaves appearing in November. I have mascula outside, where it is flowering now, and am trying one pyramidalis up against the house wall in the red granite chippings. It has survived the winter. The others are nearly out in the greenhouse.
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Cheers Anthony, very interesting and super to hear you are trying them outside!
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Anthony what a super plant great to see
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Anthony,
Great plant, and great pics. Very striking flowers by the look of it. Thanks for sharing. 8)
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Two Orchids with interesting forms are in bloom at the moment
Ophrys regis-ferdinandii in Rhodos and Himantoglossum affine , a rare E. Mediterranean species, this one from the upper Galilee.
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One more for today,
A green orchid, Platanthera holmboei, extremely rare, we have found only 8 plants this season.
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Oron,
Wow! :o The Ophrys regis-ferdinandii and Himantoglossum affine really are fascinating shapes aren't they. Obviously they're insect mimics (the Ophrys in particular) for pollination purposes. Very nice plants and very nice pics. Thanks.
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Two more Ophrys in the greenhouse: O. cretica and O. tenthredinifera X apifera. The former seems lost in the jungle so I will move it and take a better pic. There are two flowering plants. The one pictured is much shorter than the other.
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Oron great pictures I really like the platanthera,it looks very robust.Was it growing in wet conditions.The platanthera I have found in the alps were in bog.
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Judging by the distance the anthers are apart,the Platanthera looks like a moth pollinated species? The pollinia stick to the moth's eyes. :o
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Anthony,
Oh, the markings on the O. cretica are so striking. :o
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Anthony, i agree with Paul, your O. cretica is a stunner, great markings!!
Oron great pictures I really like the platanthera,it looks very robust.Was it growing in wet conditions.The platanthera I have found in the alps were in bog.
Tony,
Platanthera grows here at the edge of an evergreen Oak forest where it can receive some sun, the area is quite humid in Mediterranean terms but not wet, it grows in the company of Cyclamen coum.
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Oron,
Great to see more pictures of orchids in Israel.
In your travels have you encountered any interspecific hybrids?
In the meadows here it is possible to find hybrids between O.coriophora and O.palustris.
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some photos of Orchids
AM.jpg
Platanthera sp.AM.jpg
Orchis papilionacea.jpg
Orchis simia.AM.jpg
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Hi Alessandro,
Super healthy looking plants and nice detailed pics, pot grown orchids by the look of pic 1?
I think your first pic is of O.conica, your Platanthera species looks like P.chlorantha, your O.papilionacea is O.purpurea.
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Hi Alessandro,
Super healthy looking plants and nice detailed pics, pot grown orchids by the look of pic 1?
I think your first pic is of O.conica, your Platanthera species looks like P.chlorantha, your O.papilionacea is O.purpurea.
Hiristo
That disaster,
creed you have reason, is Orchis purpurea, for photo 1 Orchis is not sure or, the leaves are wide 2 cm, long 10, base them and silverplated, what you say?
Alessandro
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Hi Alessandro,
O.purpurea ( The Lady Orchid ) has a deeply divided lip that makes the flower look like a lady with a hat, O.papilionacea has an entire or only partially divided lip, I have attached a picture of O.papilionacea from Greece.
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I agree with you Chris. I have both in the greenhouse, and Alessandro's plant looks just like my Orchis purpurea.
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Hi again Alessandro, I have attached a pic of O.conica, not an exact match, your plant looks to me like it is in the group formed by O.tridentata, O.lactea and O.conica, they are very variable!
True Anthony, when you compare your plant to Alessandro's plant there is little doubt it is O.purpurea.
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Hristo
the leaves are not equal, try to put a photo of the leaves soon
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I also vote for Orchis tridentata. :D
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Oron,
Great to see more pictures of orchids in Israel.
In your travels have you encountered any interspecific hybrids?
In the meadows here it is possible to find hybrids between O.coriophora and O.palustris.
Chris
We often find Hybrids here, less in the Orchis but much more common with Ophrys, in some areas there are entire populations that seems to be hybrids often with more than two species involved.
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Cheers Oron,
I guess we tend to see more orchis hybrids here because there are more orchis species growing in mixed communities, Ophrys in my area is limited to one species, so whilst there is variation, one can be certain about the ID.
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Hristo
I have photographed the leaves
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Hristo
also this is Orchis purpurea ?
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Hi Alessandro,
From the leaves your orchid looks more like O.tridentata than O.lactea or O.conica ( Pic attached of O.tridentata in the wild ). Hans, you win the vote!
Yes your other pic looks to me like O.purpurea with a super dark hood. The markings on the flowers are very variable in this species, no two plants are the same ( unless they are clones! )
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Hiristo
thanks for the identifications
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Two of the late flowering species are in bloom now:
Orchis sancta and Orchis coriophora [perfumed orchid]
Both E. mediterranean, Orchis sancta has a wider distribution.
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3 from me first Cypripedium emil, Cypripedium gisela and last Masdevallia coccinea Dwarf Pink.
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Oron,
Great to see a pale form of Orchis coriophora, I have walked my way through thousands of stems in the hope of seeing a pale form here but this species is uniformly dark in Bulgaria as per my stock picture.
Derek, the Cypripedium 'Emile' is a super looking plant, bravo!
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Hey Chris
...and I was looking for a dark form.... ;D
I didnt know it grows so abundantly in Bulgaria, here it is a rare species that grows only in a few locations in the Upper Galilee.
It is very uniform in color as you have mentioned too, only that here it has a pale pink color.
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Oron, human nature eh, we always want what we haven't got! :D
They are very abundant here, later this month they should be flowering and I will photograph the 'swarms' in the local pastures.
Orchis mascula is hard to find in Bulgaria, I found 2 plants recently on a woodland edge at 700m, in the UK they form large colonies of hundreds of plants, in Bulgaria they are all but solitary!
Which species in Israel are the most prolific?
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A couple of Orchis purpurea in their propagation bed, in the backgound some younger plants that have not yet reached flowering size.
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Nice plants Chris
Do You do propagation from seed plants that You grow on, or is it offsets the way it is done with Dactylorhizas that is the non flowering plants? Or is it even self sown seedlings that are now under more systematic places?
Have not seem much (any of how Orchis behave in gardens compared to what is seen about Dactylorhizas) so I do not know if they self-seed or if they increase vegetatively or if the trick of separating the new growth from the old is possible as Ian Y. has shown for Dactylorhizas? I know they look different but not if this difference is of importance in this case.
Sorry for the many questions but Orchis is a gender that grows well wild in Portugal and I am thinking of maybe buying plants later on to have in the garden so am interested how they behave in "warm climate" even if Your winters are much harder then ours. By the way do You cover them in the winter?
Thanks for the pics and hope the many questions can get some answers.
Kind regards
Joakim
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Hi Joakim,
All available methods, by division ( summer propagation ) of existing stock, by seed ( in-vitro ) and by seed sown in the garden and new purchases.
The plants live outside all year round, no extra protection except for southern med species. The technique used for dactylorhiza can be applied to certain Orchis and Ophrys species. The O.purpurea is established here in an upland meadow section of the property, but for propagation purposes I hold some plants in the bed pictured, the substrate is loose allowing access to the plants storage organs without destroying the root system.
With respect to growing in the garden I have had most success by mimicing the natural conditions the orchids grow in, if you want to grow woodland orchids it's a good idea to have a 'woodland' area, i.e... shade and woodland soil. If you have orchids that like drainage and rocky alkaline conditions, maybe a section of 'alpine' garden heavily modified with crushed limestone etc will work for you. It is all about experimentation, sadly it costs, and though you can read up and learn from others mistakes and successes in the end you will need to make your own errors! I know many forumists have great success growing in pots, my experience with pot culture was that long term survivability was poor, but that was my experience, I am sure others will have plants that have been with them for many years. I have some tuberous species that been with me now for 10 years.
I will post some more pics of the various 'biomes' around the garden, attached now O.purpurea in the meadow.
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Many thanks for the answers for which types of Orchis and Ophrys have You tried the technique used for Dactylorhiza and was there some that it did not work for or is it a matter of having enough (plants/currage) to dare?
Kind regards
Joakim
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Courage! The colony formers are a near certainty, trial and error as to the rest, sometimes it works and sometimes iit doesn't work with the sme species!
I have quickly photographed my procedure for dividing O.purpurea to illustrate the method, now is the time as the plants are in their early flowering period, if you divide a flowering plant it is then best to cut off the flower stem!
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Some fantastic pics in here. Orchis purpurea looks amazing. Thanks everyone for these treats. :)
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Chris many thanks this is great to see. All the ways to artificially increase the plants help take preassure of the wild plants so it is a way to conserve these plants.
Great set of photos very informative! 8) 8) ;D ;D
kind regards
Joakim
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You're a genius Chris. I'm going to try it!
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Anthony please let us know how it went and with which ones You tried.
Kind regards
Joakim
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Sadly I can't claim too much credit here, I first read of this method in a text book from the public library in Aberdeen, I first practiced it on Dactylorhizas and later moved onto other species so best of luck Anthony! General advice is once you have summer propagated the new tuber should be treated as if it is dormant whilst the remaining plant should be kept moist and a little cooler and shaded, essentially I guess you want the plant to react to the environment as if it is spring and not summer!
Joakim, as promised some 'habitat' shots from around the garden, I have plants dotted here there and everywhere, never too close together as I don't want to lay them out for the creatures that nibble!
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Here is Orchis mascula growing in a trough. Unlike the ones I have seen in Scotland, this French form sometimes has unspotted leaves.
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Here is Orchis mascula growing in a trough. Unlike the ones I have seen in Scotland, this French form sometimes has unspotted leaves.
I've noticed the same here in the alpine meadows within a few feet of each other
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Chris thanks for the habitat shots.
Anthony I saw only unspotted on the Serra de Aire while the ones in Coimbra (Portugal) was all motteled som 90km difference.
The D. praetermissa I bought did not have any spots but I think they are often spotted but I am not sure about that.
The spotting is not a sure sign just a good indication of the species.
Kind regards
Joakim
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Anthony, those are some fantastic looking O.mascula, very well grown. In the UK I had Dactylorhiza hybrids growing in troughs with alpine plants and it agreed with them too!
My offering this evening is Bonatea speciosa. I have had these for around 12 years, they came from Ian Christie when they were nought but babes. After many years I discovered they generally won't flower ( for me ) until the root / tuber complex weighs in at around 1 kilo! Not the most beautiful species but terrestrial orchids for the house don't come much bigger! :D :D
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Chris - well done for being so patient with B Speciosa .
If it grows that large ,I will give it a miss. ;D
Eric
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Not come across Bonatea speciosa before.
Anthony, those are some fantastic looking O.mascula, very well grown. In the UK I had Dactylorhiza hybrids growing in troughs with alpine plants and it agreed with them too!
I have loads of Dactylorhiza spp. seedlings appearing in my troughs and pots and as fast as I remove them and plonk them in the border more appear! ::)
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I have loads of Dactylorhiza spp. seedlings appearing in my troughs and pots and as fast as I remove them and plonk them in the border more appear! ::)
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Anthony - I wish I could say the same. ::)
Eric
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And HOW I wish I had the same, Anthony. ::)
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I'll post pics in due course. 8)
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I'll post pics in due course. 8)
And some seedlings ? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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OK ;D
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Himantoglossum adriaticum
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Gosh. What does the whole plant look like? Is it tall?
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Wow. How unusual.
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My first flowering of Ophrys Apifera.
Eric
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It certainly does look like an insect, doesn't it. 8)