Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Iris => Topic started by: David Nicholson on February 09, 2009, 01:14:37 PM
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I am sure that some of the AGS members will know Val Lee, if not personally then by name (Ian Young knows her). Val was, until this year, Secretary of our local AGS Group.
At our Group meeting last week Val brought along her Iris histrioides Katharine Hodgkin the original bulb of which she was given, more than fifteen years ago, by Mike and Polly Stone. Val's plant looked much darker than any 'Katharine Hodgkin' I have seen before, especially on the standards, and is certainly a lot darker than any of the 'Katharine Hodgkins' I grow. This made me wonder if her plant has some other blood in it, or, given it's provenance, is really how Katharine Hodgkin used to be, and the modern clones are not correct, or might suffer from the 'v' problem?
There will be many on the Forum with far more experience than I have and I would welcome some views to pass on to Val.
Here a four pics of Val's plant, a little dark I'm afraid, and by comparison a pic of one of my own plants.
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Hello David,
First of all, happy birthday!
It seems to me that this Iris suffers from virus.
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Thanks very much Miriam.
Mmmm. I did wonder.
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Oh dear, poor Val's Iris is horribly virused :o I hope the lady herself is in good order?
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I'd go for the virus verdict too... :-[
Your plant looks very healthy though David ! ;)
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Here a four pics of Val's plant
BRRRRRR..... :'( :'(
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Thanks for your help folks.
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My Katherine Hodgkin just bloomed today. The colour is close to impossible to capture, but this is what I know as the typical KH. Am I correct? As reticulatas and comapany are new to me, I'ld love to get informed! Just sown some seed of I. magnifica, so I am branching out. ;D
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That's the very girl, Jamie!
Here is some in our garden now..... see how "cold" the Scottish light is!
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Thanks, Maggi,
looks like she's quite at home with you. I have it planted under a rose arch where I hope it will bake a bit in Summer. We are very wet in Cologne, much like Scotland.
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We find Iris 'Katharine Hodgkin' to be a charming lady, she makes herself at home all over our garden, we would not be without her. I should think she will be happy by your rose arch :)
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We find Iris 'Katherine Hodgkin' to be a charming lady, she makes herself at home all over our garden, we would not be without her. I should think she will be happy by your rose arch :)
Charming and disarming - who could not fail to fall under the spell of this delicate looking iris which obviously is tougher than she looks ??? My hopes are up that she would like to take the mountain air! (hot sun guaranteed) 8)
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I rather think "she" might, Robin. I'll make a note to lift one for you . :D
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I wish she'd do as well for me. She struggles on for me, rarely if ever flowering unfortunately. Mine now reside in the damper and slightly shadier corner of my crocus garden, where she gets a little shelter in summer from the heat and dry, but still gets very good drainage with the bit of extra moisture. We shall see what happens to her in the future.
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Paul , from a single bulb I built up a thriving colony of over 200 flowering sized ones in a matter of about 5 years - a beautyful sight - and then the next year not a single surviver , the dreaded ink decease , only empty shells .
The first time I saw I. 'Katharine Hodgkin' in flower was in 1961 in E.B. Anderson's
garden in Lower Slaughter ,under a Plum Tree. I remember E.B.A. telling me ,that it was the second year to flower , and that he used I danfordiae as one parent , but it has been established in the meantime that it was I winogradowii .
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Otto,
Ouch!! Not good. I guess I should be happy that mine at least still survives. ;D Iris winowgradowii is thankfully doing OK, has increased a little and this year should hopefully be big enough to flower again I hope. These little retic types are just so special. 8)
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I rather think "she" might, Robin. I'll make a note to lift one for you . :D
I would be thrilled to have one from you Maggi; a plant that is given is extra special as you watch it grow and I think I have the perfect spot for 'her' ;D 8)
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Paul , from a single bulb I built up a thriving colony of over 200 flowering sized ones in a matter of about 5 years - a beautyful sight - and then the next year not a single surviver , the dreaded ink decease , only empty shells .
The first time I saw I. 'Katharine Hodgkin' in flower was in 1961 in E.B. Anderson's
garden in Lower Slaughter ,under a Plum Tree. I remember E.B.A. telling me ,that it was the second year to flower , and that he used I danfordiae as one parent , but it has been established in the meantime that it was I winogradowii .
I am afraid I cannot grow them outside but I can buy them in pots in the garden center as if they were pansies.
The common wisdom is that EBA said that he used danfordie and Otto has it "from the horse's mouth". I wonder: What makes it certain that he used winogradowii?? EBA was no ignoraminus. Is there a DNA-sequensing that supports it? The fact that danfordie has minuscule standards is not necessarily a proof. That could be a recessive gene - considering the rarity of "danfordie-standards" that seems likey.
Göte
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I am afraid I cannot grow them outside but I can buy them in pots in the garden center as if they were pansies.
Gote,
Can you hear me here, sobbing! :'( :'( If only! ::)
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You are too far from Holland Paul. You have my sympathy.
Göte
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Yes, I am a LONG way from Holland!! A quarantine world away in fact. ;D I'm sure I'll live. If they were available in every garden centre then they wouldn't nearly as special, but then again I would be far more likely to see them in flower in person instead of struggling along like in my garden. ::) So it is SOOOOOO nice to see the pics up here to remind me of what mine will look like if I ever get her to flowering size again. 8)
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Paul , from a single bulb I built up a thriving colony of over 200 flowering sized ones in a matter of about 5 years - a beautyful sight - and then the next year not a single surviver , the dreaded ink decease , only empty shells .
The first time I saw I. 'Katharine Hodgkin' in flower was in 1961 in E.B. Anderson's
garden in Lower Slaughter ,under a Plum Tree. I remember E.B.A. telling me ,that it was the second year to flower , and that he used I danfordiae as one parent , but it has been established in the meantime that it was I winogradowii .
I am afraid I cannot grow them outside but I can buy them in pots in the garden center as if they were pansies.
The common wisdom is that EBA said that he used danfordie and Otto has it "from the horse's mouth". I wonder: What makes it certain that he used winogradowii?? EBA was no ignoraminus. Is there a DNA-sequensing that supports it? The fact that danfordie has minuscule standards is not necessarily a proof. That could be a recessive gene - considering the rarity of "danfordie-standards" that seems likey.
Göte
I have just rediscovered an article in ‘The Garden’ (vol. 115, pt.9, Sept 1990) on the identity of Iris ‘Katharine Hodgkin’ by Brian Mathew & Margaret Johnson in which they establish beyond reasonable doubt that the parents of this hybrid are I. histrioides ‘Major’ & I. winogradowii & not, as E.B. Anderson claimed, I. histrioides ‘Major’ & I. danfordiae. Their argument is based on a combination of morphological & cytological evidence & a comparison with the similar hybrid I. ‘Frank Elder’ whose parentage is known to be I. histrioides ‘Major’ x I. winogradowii.
I. histrioides ‘Major, I. winogradowii, I. ‘Katharine Hodgkin’ & I. ‘Frank Elder’ all have chromosome numbers of 2n = 16. The commonly grown clone of I. danfordiae has a chromosome number of 27 which suggests that it is a triploid. It is apparently almost sterile. Mathew & Johnson speculate that EBA hand pollinated I. histrioides ‘Major’ from the virtually sterile I. danfordiae but that the plant was subsequently pollinated from I. winogradowii by an insect. It was this second act of pollination which produced two seeds one of which produced the bulb from which all plants of I. ‘Katharine Hodgkin’ are descended.
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Gerry,
I have often doubted the logic behind it not being danfordiae. There is a diploid danfordiae and quite a few hybridizers are working with it. The typicall propogated clone is a triploid and largely unfertil, but actual seed-grown plants are diploid. Having seed the various patterns from this group of Iris on the reticulata page, I see no reason to disprove the purposed cross, short of a chromosome analysis.
I suppose it is all rather here nor there, as I will always be fascinated by such a colour combination, which are becoming more and more prevalent. Is it genetics, or is it our changing tastes? ;)
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Jamie - I find the argument compelling. As Mathew & Johnson point out, even if a diploid I. danfordiae (2n =18) had been available in 1955 how would this give rise to a 2n= 16 plant ('KH') when crossed with I histrioides (2n = 16). A similar problem would arise with a triploid I. danfordiae. The authors also claim that there are significant differences in chromosome shape as well as number. They give a somewhat more 'academic' reference: Johnson & Mathew, (1989). Kew Bull., 44(3), 515 -524
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Jamie - I find the argument compelling. As Mathew & Johnson point out, even if a diploid I. danfordiae (2n =18) had been available in 1955 how would this give rise to a 2n= 16 plant ('KH') when crossed with I histrioides (2n = 16). A similar problem would arise with a triploid I. danfordiae. The authors also claim that there are significant differences in chromosome shape as well as number. They give a somewhat more 'academic' reference: Johnson & Mathew, (1989). Kew Bull., 44(3), 515 -524
If the chromosome counts are correct, I agree that the winogradowii theory is by far the most likely. However, I also think that we should not believe that diploid danforide was unavailable at the time - all bulbs do not come from Dutch bulb fields. If Andersson had winogradowii growing why not diploid danfordie??.
Göte
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Jamie - I find the argument compelling. As Mathew & Johnson point out, even if a diploid I. danfordiae (2n =18) had been available in 1955 how would this give rise to a 2n= 16 plant ('KH') when crossed with I histrioides (2n = 16). A similar problem would arise with a triploid I. danfordiae. The authors also claim that there are significant differences in chromosome shape as well as number. They give a somewhat more 'academic' reference: Johnson & Mathew, (1989). Kew Bull., 44(3), 515 -524
If the chromosome counts are correct, I agree that the winogradowii theory is by far the most likely. However, I also think that we should not believe that diploid danforide was unavailable at the time - all bulbs do not come from Dutch bulb fields. If Andersson had winogradowii growing why not diploid danfordie??.
Göte
I have to agree with both of you. If the chromosomes have been studied, then a 99% conclusion should be possible, as these do not lie. The centromere positions on the chromosomes should be different enough to identify from which species they originated with a high probability.