Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: steve owen on January 02, 2009, 06:07:30 PM
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Hi folks
I had a clump of snowdrops showing signs of eelworm infestation, so out they came, and out came the soil they were in, which I have replaced.
Could anyone offer me advice on whether it would be worth using a drench fungicide as a sort of cordon sanitaire around the patch that was affected? (Other snowdrops and narcissi grow nearby and are worth protecting). In the greenhouse I have the fungicides Chizm and Jet Five, which I use for twinscaling. Would either of these be suitable? Or should I be considering another - if so I need to be able to obtain it?
Or is this idea of a drench cordon just me being over-anxious? Can't find anything in the literature or Google apart from the old treatment of heating affected bulbs up to a certain temperature.
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From this year I'll be drenching post flowering with a fungicide against Stag.
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From this year I'll be drenching post flowering with a fungicide against Stag.
Mark
What fungicide would that be, and is it readily available?
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Carbendazim. It's off the market :-\
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Any thoughts on one that is available?
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Are you worried about eelworm transferring a fungus? How would a fungicide help against eelworms? I'm puzzled :-\
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Are you worried about eelworm transferring a fungus? How would a fungicide help against eelworms? I'm puzzled :-\
Maggi
I am only interested in protecting against stag - eelworms thankfully have never been a problem (fingers crossed)
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Maggi
"Are you worried about eelworm transferring a fungus? How would a fungicide help against eelworms? I'm puzzled"
No, I want to sterilise the surrounding soil against the eelworms. I'm rather hoping that the world's greatest living authority on eelworms will be reading this thread and saying "no no Steve, what you need is product X". I also need product X to be available more widely than restricted to farmers and commercial growers. Product X may be Dettol or San Izal or Laphroaig Malt Whisky as long as it put paid to the pesky eelworms. ???
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Two problems maybe.
Brian Duncan uses hot water treatment on all of his Narcissus and a Dursban substitute as a drench for Narcissus fly grubs. It goes far because it only needs 1 or 2 ml in a litre.
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Eelworms are everywhere but the question is are the good or the bad one's in the majority. If its the last you can better choose to leave that place for a while for growing bulbs. Desinfecting the soil with Vydate is also a possibility but i don't know if this is still available and this is not a solution, because the bad ones return quicker than the good ones. Another possibility is growing Tagetes for a while it reduces the number of Eelworm. The cookingadvice for infected bulbs i have to check the books again, i believe its 2 hour at 42'Celsius exact with some 2% formaline.
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Brian Duncan uses hot water treatment on all of his Narcissus and a Dursban substitute as a drench for Narcissus fly grubs. It goes far because it only needs 1 or 2 ml in a litre.
If there isn't a specific anti-eelworm treatment, I suppose that what makes life unpleasant for narcissus fly grubs might put the eelworms off too. Is Dursban (and Provado, which has also been mentioned) available to us amateurs, and is there a right time to apply it, i.e. during/after the growing season, or whilst the bulbs are dormant?
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Could please anybody tell me what is the sientific name for Eelworm -so I can look in a database what works against it 8)
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Hans there are a number of Nematodes or eelworm species. Phylum Nematoda
The most likely one to be the problem being discussed is the stem or bulb eelworm - Ditylenchus dipsaci.
Longidorus, Xiphinema and Trichodorus species browse on roots and can transfer virus etc.
As far as I know there are no satisfactory chemicals available to gardeners and heat treatments as described previously are the common method used by nurseries to contain the problem.
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Ian at all ,
I'm sorry to report but I have to confirm what Ian write - there is no insectide against it -only treatment with warm water ( 41° for 2 hours - after this time again cool )
Earlier is was possibly to treat the ground with Basamid granulate .
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Guys
Tried to post to an old thread since none of the current ones seem appropriate, but the system told me to start a new one.
Quite a lot of my varieties are flowering as they push through the soil - i.e the usual emerging "nose" is replaced by a little white blob impatient to open up ASAP without attaining altitude. Is this a phenomenon I should be concerned about, or is it to do with the cold snap? If it helps diagnosis, these are all plants that were planted out 10-11 months ago, i.e. this is their first season "up". Advice from the cognoscenti much appreciated.
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Afraid I am not one of the cognoscenti Steve, but the same thing is happening here.
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I know what you mean guys. I have had a few do the same thing this year.
I have also noticed a few more than usual do the 'going brown inside the sheath' thing whereby they will not flower this year. I have made the decision that when they do this I rip off the bud in the hope that no more energy is wasted and next years show will be better. (I no longer cut off any flowers or buds as I am convinced that my virus problems last year were due to using scissors to dead head plant after plant meaning I spread the virus myself! :o ::)).
Regards
John
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But it is easier on your hands if you dip the scissors in rubbing
alcohol between cuts, rather than having to dip your fingers.
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I was told aborted brown flowers in the spathe could be caused by Stag.
"Stag" = Red Scorch Fungus = Stagonospora curtisii =a fungus particularly infecting amaryllidaceae.
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I was told aborted brown flowers in the spathe could be caused by Stag.
Hi Mark
I put it down this year to the weird 'hot', 'wet', 'cold', 'wet', 'warm', 'dry/wet', 'freezing', 'wet', etc etc weather that we have had for the last 2 months!
John
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I was told aborted brown flowers in the spathe could be caused by Stag.
I think "could" is the operative word here, Mark. I take it as a sign that the bulb had a bad year and could not quite raise enough energy to form a full flower. In my case this is most usually because I have planted the snowdrop in a bad location, perhaps somewhere too cold or too dry. If I relocate the snowdrop to a more favoured spot (or simply wait for a year of better weather) then that usually does the trick. For example, I have a small bank in my garden. Trial-and-error has taught me that snowdrops grow very happily at the bottom of this bank but struggle to do well at the top.
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Hi all, firstly Mark may well be right a touch of Stag, I would drench the area with a fungicide what ever you have. We here at the moment find that Galanthus are sitting tight some only beginning to show as it is Baltic ( very cold) we have a few in flower but days can get above freezing for a short time and I am sure the snowdrops know bad weather has yet to come. roll on spring, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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I was told aborted brown flowers in the spathe could be caused by Stag.
"Stag" = Red Scorch Fungus = Staganospora curtisii =a fungus particularly infecting amaryllidaceae.
When I tried to hasten the flowering of some snowdrops in pots, all I achieved in one case was for the flowers to turn brown/black. The foliage has since grown on significantly, once the pot was returned to a colder temperature.
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When I see any of mine aborting I remove the flower stem. I saw a few with kinky leaves today so I think it's time to start spraying with a good old fungicide.
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Excuse me but what is stag??
I have occasionally had some kind of grey mould attacking my Galanthus.
Is that it?
And what is a good old fungicide? There are nearly none left these ays.
Göte
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And what is a good old fungicide? There are nearly none left these days.
Göte
Presumably that is why it is good old fungicide?
Actually, I think professional nursery growers are still allowed access to chemicals that are now denied to amateur gardeners.
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Excuse me but what is stag??
I have occasionally had some kind of grey mould attacking my Galanthus.
Is that it?
Göte
"Stag" = Red Scorch Fungus= Red Blotch = Stagonospora curtisii =a fungus particularly infecting amaryllidaceae.....
a useful page from the PBS website:
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Stagonospora%20curtisii
I don't think grey mould is any part of the symptoms of Stagonospora curtisii
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To see this fungus at it's worst look at a Hipeastrum bulb.
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Hi, nurserymen can indeed buy fungicides which are mostly used for Agricltural crops so always in large containers that will last for several years. As a nurseryman I have to have a licence number and a record of what we have locked up in a steel container I am VERY careful what we use and only as a last resort so many chemicals are sprayed now days by huge machines with spray booms set at one meter high and these booms can ba 20ft across farmers and contractors must also have a licence but I am afraid the what I have seen is just totally irresposible. The sprayer going out on a windy day spraying everything around with no consideration for what is on the boundary I have dealt severly with any sprayers which come sometimes near my nursery not just for the plants but everyone in our small village get sprayed as well. Must get off my high horse but this is the reason why so many sprays have been removed from the market, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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No this is not what attacked my Galanthus.
I have it on Hippeastrum, however, :(
Göte
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Eh bien, mes amis...
Back to eelworm. I now possess a helpful Horticultural Development Couhcil advice sheet that tells me to "cook" the affected bulbs in water with a dash of added formaldehyde at a temperature of 44.4 degrees C for 3 hours (they are very precise about the temperature; I imagine that since the 3 hours is the time for a narcissus bulb, a little galanthus bulb could receive a little less).
So, Q for the galacticos; how do I maintain the water at that temperature for that time? (Bright ideas please (apart from sitting there with a butane gas flame, a thermometer and a fire extinguisher).
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Thermos.
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;D
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A heater/thermostat as used in a fish tank.
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Eh bien, mes amis...
Back to eelworm. I now possess a helpful Horticultural Development Couhcil advice sheet that tells me to "cook" the affected bulbs in water with a dash of added formaldehyde at a temperature of 44.4 degrees C for 3 hours (they are very precise about the temperature; I imagine that since the 3 hours is the time for a narcissus bulb, a little galanthus bulb could receive a little less).
So, Q for the galacticos; how do I maintain the water at that temperature for that time? (Bright ideas please (apart from sitting there with a butane gas flame, a thermometer and a fire extinguisher).
Sorry, but I can't see anything in this thread about eelworm prior to this, nor why you think you might have snowdrops infected with eelworm. Did you say in another thread something about having a bit of ground that might have eelworm? Do you think any of your snowdrops have eelworm?
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A heater/thermostat as used in a fish tank.
Smart thinking! :D
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Mark et al -- Your second last Stag picture. I have the same here on one Hippeastrum bulb - hole in the bulb layer and a few reddish marks. In no way has it affected the vigour of the one bulb in question. In fact the bulb is only 6-7 cm across and is putting up its 4th flower stalk. The leaves are clean. The flower stalks are reddish on the bottom third but appears to be normal not Stag. Should I toss it to be safe?
johnw
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So, Q for the galacticos; how do I maintain the water at that temperature for that time? (Bright ideas please (apart from sitting there with a butane gas flame, a thermometer and a fire extinguisher).
If you were in a laboratory you would use a thermocouple, a heater and a PID controller. PID controllers are explained here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller . You can use one to maintain something at a fixed temperature or to vary the temperature in a controlled manner (e.g. ramp the temperature at x degrees per minute). For example, you could use one of these http://www.virtualvillage.co.uk/items/item.aspx?itemid=4449701&utm_source=baseuk&utm_medium=shopping&CAWELAID=202600171 at £18.90 , a type K thermocouple and wire your heater (an old kettle might do) into it. Well, you did ask.
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I can see you smiling Alan. ;D
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I can see you smiling Alan. ;D
I am smiling, but on the other hand in my laboratory days a PID controller would set you back hundreds of pounds. To look and find one at under £20 seems so amazing I am tempted to rush out an order for one and keep it until I find a use for it! You would probably pay more for the aquarium controller and then find you could not set it above 40C! My wife does pottery and I rigged up a PID controller to control the temperature of her kiln. That one was salvaged from my old laboratory when it closed down. It works very well and allows her to raise the kiln temperature at a controlled rate then hold the temperature steady.
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Thanks folks, several ideas to pursue. I hoped when posting my previous message that there would be threaders who knew their stuff in this area, and lo and behold I now know to go away and pursue fish tank thremostats, thermos flasks and PID things. V grateful. I shall hit Google.
Martin; yes, the eelworm bit tracks back to a separate thread titled "drench fungicides" dating from 2 January; when I tried to post again on this thread the system told me to go and open an new one. My eelworm got at a Clump of Wendys Gold which was growing well (I make that point because I heard that if your drops were cultivated well and healthy, they didn't get eelworm). Any experience or advice you have would be gratefully received.
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John that is up to you.
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On the question. How do you know you have eelworms?
In Narcissus they tend to attack some layers but not others so a cut across shows brown rings.
They are visible in a relatively cheap microscope.
I got them in bulbs of Narcissus 'Apricot Distinction' bought from Holland in the days of inspection at the border.
Obviously the inspection and all red tape that was in effect in those days had no effect on the eelworms.
I never got as far as to try cooking them. I assembled the equipment but it was too nmuc bother. :(
Göte.
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yes, the eelworm bit tracks back to a separate thread titled "drench fungicides" dating from 2 January; when I tried to post again on this thread the system told me to go and open an new one
Hmm, not sure why that happened... it should only give a message asking if you really want to post again to a thread that has been dormant for over a month :-X
Anyway, I have merged the two topics so all comments are now gathered here.
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;D ;D
I should add that a Personal Messager has suggested that if I am intent on "cooking" showdrop bulbs, maybe a deep fat fryer with some chips.
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???
Sunshine! - so planting out snowdrops acquired in travels today. Out of 22, five were diseased - over 20%. All had come from sellers who I would guess are well-respected on SRGC, including one who has received favourable mention on SRGC during the past week.
Maybe the pressure on sellers to respond to/cash in on the growing demand is leading to a reduction in quality control (some of these bulbs were also pretty small). Anyway, its brush every new bulb clean in fungicide (removing the outer tunic) and hold it up to the light for me from now on. I used to think that some of the older hands' concern for hygiene was a bit overdone. Now I don't.
If you're reading this and new to snowdrops; don't assume that because you have paid a high price the plant must automatically be sound. Check it yourself, carefully, and ask for a replacement if it isn't a clean bulb with no discolouration.
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???
Sunshine! - so planting out snowdrops acquired in travels today. Out of 22, five were diseased - over 20%. All had come from sellers who I would guess are well-respected on SRGC, including one who has received favourable mention on SRGC during the past week.
Maybe the pressure on sellers to respond to/cash in on the growing demand is leading to a reduction in quality control (some of these bulbs were also pretty small). Anyway, its brush every new bulb clean in fungicide (removing the outer tunic) and hold it up to the light for me from now on. I used to think that some of the older hands' concern for hygiene was a bit overdone. Now I don't.
If you're reading this and new to snowdrops; don't assume that because you have paid a high price the plant must automatically be sound. Check it yourself, carefully, and ask for a replacement if it isn't a clean bulb with no discolouration.
Steve
When you buy on EBay you are relying on the reputation of the seller (review Feedback) and buy sight unseen. You said the snowdrops were bought on your travels, so I must assume you were able to view the drops before buying - what went wrong? ???
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Arthur
Simply, the plants looked good in their pots; leaves a good colour with no discoloration, good flowers - and the problems only became clear once the bulb was exposed. I suppose you could stand at the supplier's and do this checking but one doesn't relish the prospect.
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Steve
Were the bulbs showing evidence of 'stag', or what was the disease you detected? What are you going to do with the diseased bulbs, and will you contact the sellers?
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Maybe the pressure on sellers to respond to/cash in on the growing demand is leading to a reduction in quality control
That could well be the case, but if the problem was only apparant when you tipped out the bulbs to examine them, it is not really a problem which could easily have been detected by the seller, is it?
Another example, however, of the wisdom of bare-rooting all bought -in plants...... except that bulb roots tend to be more brittle and so a period of quarnatine is often a better idea than disturbing them in growth.
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...and the problems only became clear once the bulb was exposed....
They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Any chance of some pictures of these bulbs to show what the problem is?
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I do not live in an area where fancy snowdrops are for sale but I do move my own and can see the results.
My experience is that I get as good results by moving them as bulbs when they die down. I.e. without any soil. This makes inspection easier.
Even if the tunic is OK a diseased bulb is often slightly soft to the feel,
This does not mean that I believe that snowdrop bulbs fare well by drying out in a bag in the supermarket until November.
Thus I think that the "moving in the green" is overrated. It is a vast improvement on the wholesale/supermarket/garden center approach where they are treated as Darwin tulips but it is not the only way.
Göte
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I do not live in an area where fancy snowdrops are for sale but I do move my own and can see the results.
My experience is that I get as good results by moving them as bulbs when they die down. I.e. without any soil. This makes inspection easier.
Even if the tunic is OK a diseased bulb is often slightly soft to the feel,
This does not mean that I believe that snowdrop bulbs fare well by drying out in a bag in the supermarket until November.
Thus I think that the "moving in the green" is overrated. It is a vast improvement on the wholesale/supermarket/garden center approach where they are treated as Darwin tulips but it is not the only way.
Göte
I don't believe one answer fits all conditions. I live in the dryest part of the UK and my garden has more trees than befits its small size so it is particularly dry. The ground dries out much faster in summer conditions and my experience is that if I disturb snowdrop bulbs in their dormant season they suffer and often die. I postulate that this is because left undisturbed the bulbs establish a "microclimate" that is a bit more moist and this is lost if they are disturbed. This might not be an issue in wetter conditions or with moister soils.
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I postulate that this is because left undisturbed the bulbs establish a "microclimate" that is a bit more moist and this is lost if they are disturbed. This might not be an issue in wetter conditions or with moister soils.
A very interesting observation Alan. Not a problem in my damper garden - but an interesting insight of the conditions in your tree filled garden.
John
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...and the problems only became clear once the bulb was exposed....
They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Any chance of some pictures of these bulbs to show what the problem is?
Alan
Here are two pics of one of the bulbs.
Arthur
I want to avoid naming the suppliers - they are all reputable and mostly sell me good bulbs. I have asked them to replace; one has already replied agreeing and I expect the other two will too.
Steve
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UGH!!!! :o :o :o
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...
Alan
Here are two pics of one of the bulbs.
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Steve
What do you think has caused that? Does the hole indicate that something has taken a bite out of it?
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I was interested to read these two artiles on Stag. One is on the chemical analysis of the "redness" involved:
http://www.actahort.org/books/430/430_134.htm (http://www.actahort.org/books/430/430_134.htm)
The other mentions that the same redness of Stag can be caused by mechanical damage.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/EP/EP06000.pdf (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/EP/EP06000.pdf)
One treatment is thiophanate methyl (Senator in Canada); from the PBS they say an immersion in 1% Hydrogen peroxide also can work.
johnw
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John
Would you recommend giving all bulbs, bought dormant, a dip in 1% hydrogen peroxide?
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Arthur - I'm not the one to ask as I am just learning about Stag. This past summer I meticulously cleaned all my potted snowdrops and with the first watering I gave them a captan/benomyl drench. Still I lost two new small ones. I suppose a H202 soaking wouldn't hurt.
johnw
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???
One for the chemists; where might one buy a bottle of 1% peroxide in the UK?
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http://www.hbnweb.de/mathematik/mixture-proportion-calculator.html
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???
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Steve, here in Germany you can buy H2O2 in every apothecary.
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1% H2O2 sounds pretty week? We use 10% or 40 volumes in school. I used 10% to remove dead tissue and cure mouth rot in a Jamaican Boa over 25 years ago. You can buy hydrogen peroxide bleach and check the label to see the percentages. I'm sure chemists and supermarkets will have various products which are just diluted H2O2?
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Arthur/Hans/Hagen
Can I ask your views a little more please;
1. I'm using Chizm (active ingredient: carbendazim) as my bulb-washing fungicide. In what circumstances do you believe H2O2 might be better?
2. H2O2 at what strength/dilution?
Steve
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Steve :
to 1.
I have not expieriece - this active is not allowed here in Germany - only for professionals
to 2. I use H202 1% for desinfections ( for cleaning seeds ) and for wounds on bulbs
you here buy H2O2 in different dilitions ( 33 % ) or 3 % ... with my formula is it easy to mi it self
A friend told me also it is possibly to use NaCIO ( Natriumhypochlorid )
I have asked yesterday in our apothecary it is possibly to buy in 1% ( the price is 7,30 Euro for 250 ml )
But I have no expierince with the last.
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Don't you mean sodium (natrium) hypochlorite (NaClO) Hans? Na2Cl doesn't exist and NaCl is common table salt.
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Anthony ,
my friend wrote me : Natriumhypochlorit
....the apothecary wrote me yesterday :Na2OCL
in wikipedia you found this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite
I think you are rigth with : NaCIO !
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Sodium hypochlorite is in most liquid bleaches, although the one I have in front of me now (Jeyes Parazone) doesn't actually say what's in it! (It just says under ingredients: "Anionic surfactants; Perfume; Disinfectant") ::)
Hans, if you use 1% H2O2 to sterilise seeds, I wonder if that process could be used to introduce sterile orchid seeds to an agar medium without need for a reverse-flow cabinet?
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Anthony :
I use H2O2 1% only for seeds of fleshy Amaryllids : Clivia, Haemanthus,Scadoxus ....for one hour - this works fine- without any damages of seeds ,roots ....
After this time I lay the seeds ( p.e. CLivia + Scadoxus ) in pure Sphagnun moss for sowing.
Sorry but I have no expierience with Agar medium.
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Since there seems to be some interest in the use of dilute hydrogen peroxide, here is the original reference johnw mentioned (as supplied to me by the man himself).
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Stagonospora%20curtisii
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;) ;) ;) You made my day!
as a non-professional I couldn`t lay my hands on any fungiside so therefore I didn`t sterilize bulbs or soil.
and now you tell me I can use peroxide!that`s available everywhere!
so next year I can try to chip a bulb ;D
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Martin :
H2O2 was earlier used to change color of the hairs ;D
.....so maybe "Blonde Inge" .... has worked with this :P
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Martin :
H2O2 was earlier used to change color of the hairs ;D
It still is, although it is too late for me. I think I'll have rabbits tattooed on my head. They'll look like hairs from a distance. ::)
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In this connection when we cannot lay our hands on potent fungicides.
It is possible to buy fungicides in groceries in many countries.
They are used for food actually.
Sodiumbenzoate. We are allowed to use it to kill mould in our home made jelly :P
but not to kill mould on our bulbs. ??? ??? - but who is to know? ;D
I hope I got the English spelling right. In Sweden one brand name used to be 'Atamon'
I am not sure about concentrations but it should be possible to find out.
Göte
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What bugs me is that farmers and greenkeepers can continue to use carbendazim, the best fungicide for snowdrops and other bulbs, in vast quantities for spraying on crops and watering onto turf, but gardeners can no longer buy the tiny quantities they would require to rescue diseased bulbs. I heard the problem was that the manufacturers of various such chemicals were prepared to pay the large sums required for re-certification, as part of the EU pesticides review, of such chemicals for large-scale use in farming etc., which is highly profitable, but were not prepared to pay the same large sums for re-certification for the much less profitable, smaller horticultural market. So no major saving for the environment or for safety in food production. Just an arguable reduction in the (probably quite small if properly used) risk to the amateur gardener.
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This is not only a manufacturer's problem it is also strangely inherent in the public discussion (or should I say 'outcry'?)
Normally we consider a surface as bigger than a line and a line as bigger than a point.
However, in publich discussions about herbicides and fungicides it is the other way around.
I farmers spray large areas with Roundup it is not a problem. However if a railroad is sprayed with the same chemical there is a public outcry.
And the use on a tiny patch in a home garden is sometimes forbidden.
Originally I culd buy Roundup freely. Then only farmers (and railroad authorities) could. Now I can buy again but only pre-diluted.
(Of course anybody knowing a firendly farmer could get it all the time.)
Presumaby the powers that be assume that I will not dilute it. The stuff is more expensive than wiskey so why should I use it neat??
Göte
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Presumably there will be medical statistics to demonstrate that the population is now much healthier, having been denied access to all the dangerous chemicals formerly used in gardening? Or perhaps the statistics don't say that. Sometimes actual risk and perceived risk are completely different. If you are too short and have to sit very close to the steering wheel when driving a car, there is a real risk that you will be killed by the air bag if it goes off.
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Hi all, I would like to make several points about sprays etc which have been withdrawn from public sale. I have worked in Horticulture for 40 plus years including the sale of garden chemicals. One most importand reason for withdraiwng was simple a survey was carried out questions were asked of the public as to how easy did they understand the measures used and instuctions given on bottles boxes or whatever. Most manufacturers provided a measure but nearly all the replies from the public showed that they never looked at the instructions did use the measures provided but thought these were small amounts and added a second measure to make sure. We also found that public used systemic insecticides again probably double strength on food crops. Powder fertilisers were changed to pellets as peolpe were spreading this in the garden on windy days and breathing in the dust. I can tell you many millions of pounds have been awarded to people who sued the Chemical companies. I am no way suggesting that people are stupid and we are responsible, as I said earlier I am very concerned about the way chemicals are sprayed in agriculture, one pearly of wisdom to finish an old remedy is to spray aphids etc with soapy water, will it work you ask probably not but the soapy water will get in the insect eyes so they wont be able to see what to eat, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
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.....one pearly of wisdom to finish an old remedy is to spray aphids etc with soapy water, will it work you ask probably not but the soapy water will get in the insect eyes so they wont be able to see what to eat, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
;D ;D ;D
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If the reasons Ian has outlined are why these chemicals were withdrawn, I don't understand why the public are trusted with anything? You just need to go into the cupboard under the sink to see chemicals which, if misused, can kill. Why should we be penalised because some people are stupid or careless? The litigation arguement is typical of today's society. Sounds like a fairly weak argument? Paraquat is still available as a weedkiller and I can remember some very vivid reports of deaths due to drinking that. It is interesting to note that we can use washing up liquid for aphid control but agriculture can't.
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In 1962 Rachel Carson recorded in 'Silent Spring' the death of a farm worker through skin contact,albeit on a large scale, when using paraquat.He had an accident and was immersed up to his waist and although washed of still absorbed enough through his skin to kill him. I do not think it was realised that the skin is permable.I always wear marigolds when using chemicals.
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It's all water under the bridge, but I'm sure the manufacturers could have got around the problems of amateur gardeners not diluting chemicals properly by simply selling pre-diluted as they do with some weedkillers and insecticides now, and building in other such safety precautions. A snowdrop grower with stagonospora I'm sure wouldn't mind having to pick up a litre bottle at the garden centre if it could save his or her bulbs. From what I've read, the size of the market and the amounts they could sell to amateur gardeners just wasn't worth enough to them. I'm against indiscriminate large-scale use of chemicals in the general environment and especially in food production, but on the scale a snowdrop grower would use them, the impact is non-existent.
It's a pity there isn't some sort of intermediate category of user between professional and complete novice amateur that would allow very experienced amateur gardeners to access chemicals available to nurserymen, farmers and greenkeepers, maybe if they get a certificate after a little training like any farm or golfcourse worker. Perhaps administered by the RHS and/or horticultural and agricultural colleges.
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Martin
Is there nothing available to reliably deal with 'stag'? Should we just dispose of any bulbs that are affected?
This info would be welcome in case I find it.
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Martin
Is there nothing available to reliably deal with 'stag'? Should we just dispose of any bulbs that are affected?
This info would be welcome in case I find it.
Carbendazim, for those who can get hold of it, is the best fungicide for stag, and good for most bulb ailments. It replaced that old standby benlate and was sold most recently to gardeners (before the EU review) as Spotless Fungicide. It can still be obtained if you're a nurseryman, greenkeeper etc. from the kinds of suppliers they deal with, but isn't on sale in garden centres any more.
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Sorry, meant to add to last post that I don't know of any other fungicide available to gardeners that works on stag. The usual advice is to try any wide-spectrum fungicide you can buy in the garden centre and hope it has some effect.
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Martin
Thanks for clarification. I hope never to have need - but you know what happens when you say never.
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I wonder if carbendazim is present in any of the chemicals available to farmers for crop spraying?
Or, are any of the agricultural sprays effective in the treatment of fungal infection in bulbs?
Paddy
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I wonder if carbendazim is present in any of the chemicals available to farmers for crop spraying?
Or, are any of the agricultural sprays effective in the treatment of fungal infection in bulbs?
Paddy
Paddy, here's a link to a goverment website listing agricultural fungicides containing carbendazim. It's used on many crops, including for dipping apples yet gardeners can;t be trusted with it!
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/applicant_advice.asp?id=860
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http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/applicant_advice.asp?id=860
This website only shows uses for dipping fruit, but these products have many other crops spraying uses. Bavistin, at the top of the list, is the one most commonly available.
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Martin :
Bavistin is not longer aviable in Germany
Hans
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Googling carbendazim will find various trade names.
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Martin ,we have here in Germany only two pruducts with Carbendazim :
Aagrano UW 2000
Harvesan
both content Carbendazim -but are only available for farmers- not for private gardeners
Benomy ( Benlate ) is since long tim not aviable
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Martin ,we have here in Germany only two pruducts with Carbendazim :
Aagrano UW 2000
Harvesan
both content Carbendazim -but are only available for farmers- not for private gardeners
Benomy ( Benlate ) is since long tim not aviable
Hans, how good are you at pretending to be a farmer?
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Martin , sorry there is no chance here in Germany ....you have to fill out a lot of papers before you buy such things ....and this fungicides are only aviable in big packs !
I try in this time to get informations about figthing against Stagonospora - I have written a lot of mail to different offices ( p.e. University of Hohenheim , agrar culture ministerium and some others ....)
I have sent them a lot of questions together with Stagonospora pics from Mark ( with his agreement )
...now I wait !
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We certainly do live longer now. However, this is not necessarily due to the banning of some chemicals. These chemicals were unavailable in medieval times and we did not live very long in those days.
Why was Benlate replaced? low effect or believed toxicity?
Göte
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Why was Benlate replaced? low effect or believed toxicity?
Göte
I think it was less effective than carbendazim against a range of fungal diseases, so was superseded by carbendazim. Also, I recall there were problems with fungal diseases, especially botrytis, developing resistance to benlate as it had been used for so long and so extensively. There may also have been toxicity issues. I still can't get over the fact that carbendazim is considered okay to dip apples so they don't rot on their way to supermarkets, but not okay for selling to gardeners.
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Thank you Martin,
I have in the meantime done some research.
Benomyl works by converting to Karbendazim.
They work systemic meaning that it is possible to spray leaf and kill fungi at the roots.
Dupont invented benomyl and sold it as Benlate. One lot got contaminated with a weedkiller and this caused enormous litigation.
Later there were some birth defects that were blamed on the substance These were so rare that it was not possible to verify cause and effect.
Considering the enormous use of the product , the risk must have been extremely small if there indeed were any.
Benomyl is toxic to earthworms and normal agricultural use may reduce the population by half or so.
Finally Dupont gave up. The litigation cost more than the revenue from the product..
Benomyl is produced by 18 producers in China, 3 in India and 3 in Turkey.
I assume that in Turkey one can probably buy it over the counter
One brand is called Benokil and can be had in 400g packages containing 50% active substance. Wholesale price is 4:80 US$/kg
Wether it can be imported to and used in other countries is a different question.
Göte.
On a different angle:
Hunters usually need a hunting license. In these days this is not given without an examination. The Hunter to be must prove knowledge about existing laws, show minimum marksmanship etc.
The same is for boats over a certain size. A permit is needed and the skipper must show knowledge re laws, navigation etc.
It is of course the same for cars.
It would not be difficult to issue licenses that allowed the use of the chemicals in small amounts to those willing to take a course and a test.
What is needed is a will from authorities but some of these seem to be taken over by people who are enemies to human endeavour.
Göte
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Göte ,
Here in Germany you must have a proof to buy some chemicals for gardening - it is so called :
Sachkundenachweis ( sorry I dont know the rigth translation )
(edit by M: Sachkundenachweis would equate to "evidence of Expertise" in this context, I think )
If you have it not so you can buy only chemicals which are free aviable for all gardeners
To Benomyl : it is not against all fungus :
It works not against : Phytium, Alternaria, wrong meldew, Pythophtora.
It works well against : Botrytis,real meldew, Septoria, Colletotrichum, Rhizoctonia, Sclerotinia, Verticillium ....and many more
The real advantage from Benomyl was that it works systemic - the most of all other earler funcides works only protectiv or locosystemic - and this older fungicides was much more danger ( cupper , Quecksilber,) there was so nice things like Captan,TMTD,Dexon .....
Hans
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Has anybody tried sulphur? It is one of the few fungicides left that you can still buy. I used to use a liquid spray of sulphur dissolved in fatty acids but I cannot find that anymore. I would spray any bulbs I found that were damaged (eaten). It certainly didn't harm my snowdrops, although I do not know if it did any good, because I only used it as a precautionary measure.
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Alan some of the organic insecticides smell srongly of sulphur
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Since we are still talking pesticides here, can I point out that anyone can get a pesticide certificate in this country by doing the appropriate 2 day course. It is not too difficult and can be done at most outdoor colleges and if there is quite a few of you can get a private person in to take it. Draw back is that it costs about £150 each. This then legally allows you to buy pesticides, however there is still the problem of buying them in small quantities.
Bye the way, the weed killer paraquat was taken off the market in Europe in Dec. 2007.
Susan
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I was told Vy-nil works gainst Narcissus fly grubs. Unfortunately it's due to be removed from sale also
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Just been given two full packets of sachets of Benlate by a neighbour who's moving away.
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David :
I'm not shure how long is possibly to use Benlate .....I suppose after more than 2 years is it not more really helpfull ....
We have here in Germany ( with the new EU restrictions since 01.01.09 ) only really few medicin for our plants .
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Hans, taking into account that Benlate has been off the market for quite a few years now I doubt if it will be any good but I will give it a try.
Being (good!!) members of the EU we too are suffering from having less and less available for garden use.
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David ,
in my older book is given a advice for using :
Make a dilution of 0,2 % Benomyl and lay the bulbs for 30 minutes inside
Benomyl is not well soluble ....add a dash of washing - up liquid
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The guaranteed shelf life of Benlate seems to be 2 years.
However, you will find figures like 5 years quoted by those who use it.
A couple of years ago, I saved the life of a severely diseased Trillium vasyeii using Benlate that was purchased in the early seventies.
It must have been 30 years old and it worked.
Göte
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I have the same experience Göte, Benlate works in many years. My pack is probably 25 years. Sorry, it is not much left, and impossible to buy a new one.
Ulla
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Hi folks
Not sure if my SRGC sleight of hand will ensure the previous discussion precedes this post, but I sought advice about eelworm treatment and got some helpful replies including the old proven method of raising the bulbs and immersing them in water heated to a certain temperature.
So I was interested to read the article on P.95 of the current issue of The Garden (RHS) headed "Dealing With Eeelworm" which advocates use of a potato-related plant, solanum sisymbriifolium. An article from the website of a supplier of seeds of this plant, Alan Romans, follows, which repeats the gist of the Garden article.
"Thorny, inedible relative of potatoes which strongly stimulates potato eelworm eggs in the surrounding soil to hatch. The eelworm then find that they have nothing to feed on. In trials 50-90% hatch rates were achieved - a stronger reaction than that produced by potatoes themselves. The plant has a strong, attractive white or blue flower. It can be chopped down to 6" in summer for composting and the regrowth will produce more beneficial root growth as well as more composting material. Assume all parts are poisonous.
Sowing Instructions
Plants can grow more than a metre high but should be chopped for compost before this (wear gloves!). Treat as a half hardy annual or an outdoor tomato. Plant the tomato-like seeds spaced out in trays of suitable compost and keep the temperature above 10degreesC until germination. Plant in areas where potatoes will be grown in subsequent seasons as space allows or at 8"(20cm) intervals in rows 1'(30cm) apart. I intent extending the 4 course rotation in my veg garden to 5 by inserting them in after potatoes but before peas and beans. I will also plant them in any spaces in the non-potato sections."
If it doesn't help snowdrop growers it might be of interest to potato growers!
Steve