Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

General Subjects => Flowers and Foliage Now => Topic started by: Guff on March 19, 2022, 04:19:43 PM

Title: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Guff on March 19, 2022, 04:19:43 PM
Helleborus thibetanus

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Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Yann on March 19, 2022, 10:09:38 PM
It looks healthy it doesn't need power  ;)
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Guff on March 24, 2022, 06:19:05 PM
Yann, I had removed the wires before taking the picture.

Thibetanus seedlings

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Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Jeffnz on March 24, 2022, 07:32:53 PM
Bonus to get seedlings, a 'group shot' for the future?
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Tomte on March 24, 2022, 07:54:59 PM
I wish mine would look so healthy. Bloomed a month earlier and didnít like being frozen for 2 weeks after having sprouted in our mild January weather.
Itís a superb plant when in flower though.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Jeffnz on March 25, 2022, 01:15:57 AM
I have found the species difficult if not impossible to maintain over successive years. Unlike most other helleborus this species does seem to need a narrow set of environmental conditions to thrive.
Have never seen an accurate description of the species natural environment, not helped by original the mode of entry to western gardens.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: arisaema on March 25, 2022, 04:14:41 AM
I have found the species difficult if not impossible to maintain over successive years. Unlike most other helleborus this species does seem to need a narrow set of environmental conditions to thrive.
Have never seen an accurate description of the species natural environment, not helped by original the mode of entry to western gardens.

It thrives in both Scandinavia, the UK and East-Coast US, so I'm not sure I'd use the word "narrow"... I've seen it in the wild multiple times, always in heavy organic soils, in areas with plenty of spring/summer/autumn rain and rather cold winters.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Diane Whitehead on March 30, 2022, 02:17:40 AM
It thrives in both Scandinavia, the UK and East-Coast US. I've seen it in the wild multiple times, always in heavy organic soils, in areas with plenty of spring/summer/autumn rain and rather cold winters.

I've tried to grow it several times.   That explains why it doesn't grow in my West Coast garden.

Diane
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Diane Whitehead on March 30, 2022, 02:21:15 AM
I'm interested in breeding a scented hellebore. 

I have a couple of Helleborus liguricus but they are faintly scented.  Maybe they would have a stronger scent if I had some winter sun to shine on them.

Does anyone have a distinctly scented hellebore?

Diane
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Jeffnz on March 31, 2022, 10:05:00 PM
Hi Arisaema
Thanks for the growling conditions of thibetanus in its native habitat.
Is there winter snow cover?"
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: arisaema on April 01, 2022, 02:55:22 AM
Is there winter snow cover?

There is plenty of snow in Baoxing, but I'm not sure how stable the snow cover is... Sleet, snow and winter rain, the edge of the Tibetan plateau here in Sichuan gets an awful lot of precipitation year round; it's perhaps most similar to the climate in south-west Norway or north-west Scotland.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Jeffnz on April 01, 2022, 04:50:37 AM
Arisaema
Thx, this does suggest to me that maintenance of year rood moisture is the key factor. What about maximum temperatures during dormancy
My garden climate is wet wintrers, no snwo and very dry hot summers with temperatures exceeding 30 degrees Celsius.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Jeffnz on April 05, 2022, 01:06:34 AM
Does anyone continue to grow liguricus and checked if the flowers do have a scent?
If the answer is yes can seed be collected?
This wolud be what Diane is seeking.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Diane Whitehead on April 06, 2022, 09:54:35 PM
or does anyone live near the coast Liguria in northern Italy and could sniff the wild flowers and collect pollen from the best-scented ones?

Diane
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Guff on April 07, 2022, 12:48:57 AM
Thinking next year, Thibetanus might put up two flowering stalks?

It's interesting, last year my other plant had 5 flowers. I found it bent over one day. Thinking a deer or another animal stepped on it. This year it looks to be just a single leaf coming up.



Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Jeffnz on April 07, 2022, 03:59:59 AM
i would assume that as the plant matured that it would produce more flowering shoots. Growing conditions may work against this happening.


Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: arisaema on April 07, 2022, 06:06:41 AM
It's interesting, last year my other plant had 5 flowers. I found it bent over one day. Thinking a deer or another animal stepped on it. This year it looks to be just a single leaf coming up.

They don't like too much mulch, much like peonies the stems sometimes collapse from Botrytis, although if a deer stepped on it I guess it may have damaged next year's shots.

Thx, this does suggest to me that maintenance of year rood moisture is the key factor. What about maximum temperatures during dormancy

I think minimum might be around -10 to -12C there, and I don't think snow cover is stable through winter, but I'm afraid I don't know how warm it can get. You can get a rough idea by looking at the weather in Baoxing/Muping town itself, although it's at a much lower altitude (1010m) and much drier than the 2300-2600m belt you find H. thibetanus growing in the wild. (Deduct some 10C and double the precipitation!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baoxing_County#Geography_and_climate
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Jeffnz on April 08, 2022, 12:12:09 AM
Damage to an emerging flower stalk may have also damaged the below ground growth buds, especially if it was from being stomped on.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Leena on April 10, 2022, 07:41:35 AM
I know someone here in Finland who has been able to grow H.thibetanus at least for couple of years, but she lives in more eastern part of Finland where there is always snow when it is cold (in my part we have many times cold without snow in early winter, and then more snow in spring when there is no need for it).
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: arisaema on April 10, 2022, 10:55:34 AM
(in my part we have many times cold without snow in early winter, and then more snow in spring when there is no need for it).

What's the minimum there? It survived -18C back home with no snow cover and soggy soil in S Norway, although I had some bark mulch on top.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Leena on April 10, 2022, 02:04:20 PM
What's the minimum there? It survived -18C back home with no snow cover and soggy soil in S Norway, although I had some bark mulch on top.

In my garden minimum without snow was -23C last December and cold lasted for two weeks, mostly between -10 and -20C (this was too much for most Helleborus x hybridus leaves and they got frost damage and turned brown/black - I hope the buds are ok, but I will see when the snow melts), and in 2016 it was -26C without snow, but I don't have H.thibetanus (I have never got fresh seeds to try). In my friend's garden minimum is more but there is always snow from the beginning of winter until end.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: ian mcdonald on April 10, 2022, 08:38:17 PM
I,ve  been trying to find a supplier of a good yellow, preferably a double, without paying over the odds. Any suggestions?.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: corydalisambigua on April 15, 2022, 12:10:59 AM
Harvington has a double yellow. It should also have seeds in a month or two.
https://www.twelvenunns.co.uk/nursery/product/harvington-hellebores/helleborus-hybridus-harvington-double-yellow/
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Leena on April 17, 2022, 07:54:45 AM
This winter has not been good for my Helleborus. Most of the leaves are damaged by frost, and also many plants will not flower. The buds are all soft and mushy. I will see later if I have lost any plants completely. Many are still under snow, so I hope there will be some nice surprises too, when it melts.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Gabriela on April 19, 2022, 09:29:04 PM
This winter has not been good for my Helleborus. Most of the leaves are damaged by frost, and also many plants will not flower. The buds are all soft and mushy. I will see later if I have lost any plants completely. Many are still under snow, so I hope there will be some nice surprises too, when it melts.

Wow, that looks bad Leena. On my Helleborus all the foliage was burnt by cold this winter but the buds were OK.
It could be that yours remained under snow and ice for too long. I had plants that died one year when a blanket of ice formed on top of the snow, probably by lack of air.
Hopefully some will rebound later in the spring.

Our weather continues on the not very good trend for flowers, with cold and snow.
Helleborus caucasicus before and after:
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Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Jeffnz on April 19, 2022, 10:13:04 PM
Leena
Unfortunately does look like a disaster event but all may not be lost, hopefully the bud development was not advanced. Open flowers can cope with frost events, so fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Leena on April 20, 2022, 08:54:26 AM
Yesterday I started to cut old leaves and not all buds are gone. The ones which were coming up early are all soft and rotted, but there are some plants with buds coming from the ground only now and they seem fine (so far). :) I think most of the damage was done in early winter with very cold and no snow, but also January was bad with days of rain and  freezing temperatures at nights which resulted in ice, and then all the snow on top in February and March. Surprisingly my favourite picotee flowering white Helleborus seems to have good buds when strong ice melted from on top of its crown yesterday!
Days have now been above 10C and nights just below freezing, so spring is advancing fast and snow melting. Every day there are new plants coming up  :), and I think there will also be Helleborus flowers, but later than normal.

Gabriela, beautiful white Helleborus!
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Jeffnz on April 21, 2022, 04:53:18 AM
Leena
Great to learn that you have surviving buds, I recall that when we lived in Canada that roses were covered in shredded cardboard/paper to give snow/frost protection.
This was to avoid heaving of the bushes. Not sure if this practice is still done but it maybe a way to reduce frost burn and if not removed may well compost away and act as a soli conditioner if nothing else.

Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Gabriela on April 22, 2022, 12:53:29 AM
Leena - Glad to hear it's not as bad as it was looking.

Thanks, H. caucasicus is flowering well this year and given that I still don't have any white H. x hybridus it is very welcomed.
Here's Cherry Blossom in the late afternoon sun today:
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Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Leena on April 23, 2022, 07:50:16 AM
I recall that when we lived in Canada that roses were covered in shredded cardboard/paper to give snow/frost protection.
This was to avoid heaving of the bushes. Not sure if this practice is still done but it maybe a way to reduce frost burn and if not removed may well compost away and act as a soli conditioner if nothing else.

I have put dry oak leaves on top of my most precious plants for winter protection, and usually they help. For instance all Trillium seem to be unharmed under dry leaves.
With Helleborus the trouble was that plant had big flower buds already before the winter, plants which seem ok, are the ones which are later flowering and show buds only now.
This Helleborus multifidus was a surprise when it emerged from snow couple of days ago, already flowering when snow melted. This was grown from garden seeds.
The second Helleborus multifidus was grown from wild collected seeds, and it has also been mostly unharmed, only some flowers show dark frost damage.

Gabriela, that is a very nice plant, that flower colour is one of my favourites. I'm happy to write that at least one new seedling from your Cherry Blossom is going to flower this spring. :)
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Guff on April 23, 2022, 06:02:20 PM
Some flowers
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Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Guff on April 23, 2022, 06:05:50 PM
Some flowers
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Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Guff on April 23, 2022, 09:06:04 PM
Some flowers
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Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Jeffnz on April 23, 2022, 10:15:05 PM
Leena
Balkan species are probably more cold/snow tolerant than hybridus.
Guff
A fantastic collection of doubles, full and multi petalled.
Gabriela
That is a very dark form of Cherry Blossom. Assume it was from NWGN?

 
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Leena on April 28, 2022, 12:48:49 PM
Guff, very nice doubles and I especially liked the white picotee one, and semidouble pink.

Leena
Balkan species are probably more cold/snow tolerant than hybridus.

Jeff, you are right. :)
Here is a picture of H.multifidus which came up through snow. None of my hybridus are yet flowering.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Gabriela on April 29, 2022, 05:26:39 PM
Guff - wonderful collection! and
Nice to see the first one flowering Leena!

Gabriela
That is a very dark form of Cherry Blossom. Assume it was from NWGN?

I don't know Jeff, most probable. I bought it from a small nursery here as a very young plant with one flower :) It is indeed a very nice specimen of the Cherry Blossom strain.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Jeffnz on May 01, 2022, 10:19:36 PM
Leena
Bit surprised to see that the multifidus flowers have a tinge of pink to the flower back, always thought that this species was always green in and out.
Guff
Are the doubles all ex ETH?
Gabriela
Most of the Cherry Blossom series do not have the intense base colour of your one.

Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Buddy on May 04, 2022, 11:18:16 AM
Here are a group of H. multifidus in my garden, probably mixed sub-species and/or crosses.
The second picture shows the flower stem of the plant at the bottom of the first photo looking very different to the foliage emerging below.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: ian mcdonald on May 04, 2022, 12:20:17 PM
I have received two double yellow Hellebores from Twelve Nunns Nursery. Thanks for the information.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Leena on May 05, 2022, 10:32:03 AM
Leena
Bit surprised to see that the multifidus flowers have a tinge of pink to the flower back, always thought that this species was always green in and out.

It may be a hybrid, you are right. It was grown from seed exchange seeds, so the mother plant was garden grown.
Still, it is fully deciduous unlike any of my Helleborus x hybridus.
The other H.multifidus with green flowers (picture in the first page) is from wild collected seeds (from a location where I'm told there isn't any other species), and looks more like it should,
though it does not have as fine leaves as Ian's plant.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2022
Post by: Jeffnz on May 12, 2022, 04:25:47 AM
Buddy
The foliage associated with the flower bract is often different from appearance of the main leaf growth.
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