Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: David Lowndes on December 06, 2018, 08:45:34 AM

Title: Galanthus graecus
Post by: David Lowndes on December 06, 2018, 08:45:34 AM
I’v been looking for information about Galanthus graecum. I know there is a cultivar G.graecum Petrich which I am buying from Edulis. Does anyone know anything about this species? In fact, is it a recognised species?
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Palustris on December 06, 2018, 10:26:30 AM
I can only find G graecus as a synonym for G. elwesii, if that helps.
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Karaba on December 06, 2018, 02:00:11 PM
I use the site of CITES bulbs as my reference about Galanthus wild species. There, G. graecum (used in garden) is synonym of G. gracilis : http://citesbulbs.myspecies.info/category/galanthus-wild-species/galanthus-gracilis (http://citesbulbs.myspecies.info/category/galanthus-wild-species/galanthus-gracilis)
On the same site, G. elwesii var. elwesii is synonyme of G. graecus  Boiss. but not the one in garden (see http://citesbulbs.myspecies.info/category/galanthus-wild-species/galanthus-elwesii/galanthus-elwesii-elwesii (http://citesbulbs.myspecies.info/category/galanthus-wild-species/galanthus-elwesii/galanthus-elwesii-elwesii))
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: David Lowndes on December 06, 2018, 10:26:21 PM
Thanks both.  The Bishop, Davis and Grimshaw book also takes this position (CITES).  As it is sold as graecum rather than graecus I am expecting to see the gracilis connection. It will be interesting to grow it and see how it develops.
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Alan_b on December 06, 2018, 11:58:54 PM
There is a type of snowdrop with the broader supervolute leaves of G. elwesii but these leaves are somewhat twisted in the manner of G. gracilis so it's a bit like an intermediate form between the two species.  I have been to talks where this has been referred to as G. graecum (or was it graecus, I don't remember for sure).  It's certainly not (last I heard) a fully recognised species but maybe one day.  Whilst some genera have undergone extensive DNA testing, the genus Galanthus has received very scant attention so what constitutes a different species is very much in the eye of the beholder rather than the result of analysis.
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: David Lowndes on December 07, 2018, 07:24:01 AM
Thanks Alan. That’s really helpful. Can you recall if anything was said about distribution? Turkey, I’ m guessing.
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Alan_b on December 07, 2018, 09:44:45 PM
Yes, something was certainly said about distribution but unfortunately I cannot recall where.  I think it was Melvyn Jope speaking and he frequents Greece more than Turkey.  Also the name would rather imply Greece, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Edgar Wills on December 07, 2018, 10:50:23 PM
Found this on google:
“You will note that that I have called the plant Galanthus graecus  -  I have heard or read of them being described as G.elwessi, G. gracilis or as a hybrid between the two. As this all sounds rather unsatisfactory I have followed the naming used by by fellow forumist Dimitri Zubov.
I wanted to take photos showing the considerable variation in leaf, flower markings etc and I hope you will see that the plant presents a nomenclature problem. Some applanate some convolute and considerable variation in the size and development of leaf at flowering time.”
From  https://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8904.0
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Alan_b on December 08, 2018, 07:05:07 AM
Well done Edgar - and what a great repository of information the SRGC Forum is.  I might add that a few years ago the snowdrops labelled Galanthus elwesii on sale in my local garden centre looked very like G. graecus, as described.
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Tony Willis on December 08, 2018, 03:55:58 PM
The galanthus in the Mt Olympus and Mt Vermion area are very varied and every variation between 'gracilis' and 'elwesii' can be found. On My Vermion the plants are mainly growing in beech woods and lots are very robust whilst at Macroplagi at the back of Mt Olympus they are growing under conifers and are much smaller. I think Zubov has called them all 'graecus'

Further east on Mt Pangeo and out from Drama they are more like you would expect gracilis to be.
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: David Lowndes on December 08, 2018, 06:10:26 PM
This is turning out to be very interesting. I always forget to search this forum, maybe I’ll remember now! I remember seeing this snowdrop for sale last season but can’t remember where. Looking forward to growing it.
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Anne Repnow on December 08, 2018, 06:11:13 PM
Thank you Tony - that is very interesting!
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: David Lowndes on December 10, 2018, 08:44:48 PM
Mystery resolved.  A very reliable source tells me that G.graecus (not graecum) is about to be reconfirmed as a distinct species following molecular studies.  I’m not being smug about the source, it’s just that I haven’t checked to see if they are happy to be named.
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Stefan B. on January 21, 2019, 03:15:06 PM
Galanthus graecum ‘Petrich’
(https://i.imgur.com/Bpz7sJf.jpg)

Interestingly, I discovered a few years ago in my garden, here it is.

(https://i.imgur.com/yoQDRXP.jpg)
Unnamed

Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: David Lowndes on January 21, 2019, 06:55:45 PM
Very nice. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Maggi Young on March 28, 2021, 07:17:13 PM
Reopening this thread to post these  photos from Dimitri Zubov.....

Galanthus graecus fide Zubov in the wild, S Ukraine, Black Sea Lowland

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Maggi Young on March 28, 2021, 07:18:32 PM
more Galanthus graecus fide Zubov in the wild, S Ukraine, Black Sea Lowland

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Tim Harberd on April 02, 2021, 08:56:51 PM
Striped ovaries! That's a curious thing... Thanks for posting Maggi
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Alan_b on April 03, 2021, 08:15:23 PM
A pity Dimitri does not show us more of the leaves, to help in recognition.
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Maggi Young on April 04, 2021, 12:12:35 AM
Dimitri is widely regarded as an expert  in the  field, so I for one, am  prepared to take  his ID as correct. I confess it never occurred to  me  to doubt it. 8)
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Alan_b on April 04, 2021, 09:07:50 AM
I don't doubt it for one minute, Maggi.  What I doubt very much is my own ability to correctly identify Galanthus graecus were I to encounter it.
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Maggi Young on April 04, 2021, 12:59:15 PM
I don't doubt it for one minute, Maggi.  What I doubt very much is my own ability to correctly identify Galanthus graecus were I to encounter it.
Ah well, I might be with you there!   Always something to learn isn't  there?

I find these  notes are  helpful -

http://citesbulbs.myspecies.info/category/galanthus-wild-species/galanthus-gracilis#:~:text=Galanthus%20gracilis%20occurs%20on%20limestone%2C%20sandstone%2C%20and%20igneous,and%20wetter%20than%20places%20with%20a%20south-facing%20aspect.
Title: Re: Galanthus graecus
Post by: Alan_b on April 04, 2021, 03:34:24 PM
Cites say:

Quote
In the past, G. gracilis has been known as G. graecus, for example in F.C. Stern’s Snowdrops and Snowflakes (1956), but this name should not be used because the type specimen of G. graecus represents G. elwesii and not G. gracilis (Brickell 1984).

My understanding is that graecus is not fully acknowledged as a species and in appearance looks somewhat intermediate between elwesii and gracilis.  It would have caused less confusion to choose a different and new name for this species rather than recycle an old one but perhaps if the type specimen really is neither elwesii nor gracilis that is not allowed?     
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