Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Bulbs => Bulbs Wanted => Topic started by: Lesmona on November 11, 2018, 09:55:33 PM

Title: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Lesmona on November 11, 2018, 09:55:33 PM
Hello,

I am looking for plants or seeds of:

Trollius lilacinus
Cremanthodium brunneopilosum
Saussurea involucrata

does anyone have an idea where i can buy these species?

Thank you.

Regards,
Ole
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Steve Garvie on November 11, 2018, 11:16:40 PM
Hi Ole,

Vojtech Holubec currently offers Trollius lilacinus seed in his new seed list. Getting seed to germinate is problematic (even with gibberellic acid) and growing it on is very difficult. Tr. komarovii/Hegemone micrantha is also on the list and is slightly easier to grow.

Vojtech also lists some Saussurea including the spectacular gossypiphora (?growable in lowland gardens) but not involucrata.

Cremanthodium brunneopilosum is occasionally available on the SRGC seed exchange (last time was 2016/17 list). I have grown Cr. lineare which looks fairly similar but I think there are smaller species available that are more attractive.
Good luck with your search.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7340/28001911371_f8ab49c890_o_d.jpg)
Cremanthodium lineare

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4230/35702676391_70d5edd238_o_d.jpg)
Cremanthodium rhodocephalum

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4261/35702676541_338066e43e_o_d.jpg)
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Leucogenes on November 12, 2018, 11:34:19 AM
Unimaginably beautiful plants. ..Steve. My deepest respect.

Cremanthodium Seeds were available last year at http://www.chinesealpines.com (http://www.chinesealpines.com).
 Unfortunately I did not order any. The new catalogue will be published at the end of November.

I lie in wait.

Thomas

Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Lesmona on November 23, 2018, 10:05:29 PM
Hi Ole,

Vojtech Holubec currently offers Trollius lilacinus seed in his new seed list. Getting seed to germinate is problematic (even with gibberellic acid) and growing it on is very difficult. Tr. komarovii/Hegemone micrantha is also on the list and is slightly easier to grow.

Vojtech also lists some Saussurea including the spectacular gossypiphora (?growable in lowland gardens) but not involucrata.

Cremanthodium brunneopilosum is occasionally available on the SRGC seed exchange (last time was 2016/17 list). I have grown Cr. lineare which looks fairly similar but I think there are smaller species available that are more attractive.
Good luck with your search.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7340/28001911371_f8ab49c890_o_d.jpg)
Cremanthodium lineare

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4230/35702676391_70d5edd238_o_d.jpg)
Cremanthodium rhodocephalum

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4261/35702676541_338066e43e_o_d.jpg)

Hi Steve,

thank you for your answer. Your plant are stunning! I have sown Cremanthodium last year. I know the germination is very problematic. What do you do that they germinate?

Ole
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Steve Garvie on November 23, 2018, 10:45:50 PM
Hi Ole,

Cremanthodium germinate best from fresh seed. When sown in the Autumn and exposed to winter cold germination occurs with rising Spring temperatures.

Bjørnar Olsen and August Wu offer a good range of Cremanthodium. Last year they offered seed of Saussurea involucrata, Trollius lilacinus and 5 different collections of Cremanthodium.
Here is their website:  http://chinesealpines.com (http://chinesealpines.com)
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Lesmona on December 01, 2018, 03:34:27 PM
Hi Ole,

Cremanthodium germinate best from fresh seed. When sown in the Autumn and exposed to winter cold germination occurs with rising Spring temperatures.

Bjørnar Olsen and August Wu offer a good range of Cremanthodium. Last year they offered seed of Saussurea involucrata, Trollius lilacinus and 5 different collections of Cremanthodium.
Here is their website:  http://chinesealpines.com (http://chinesealpines.com)

Hi Steve,

thank you for the tip. I visited chinesealpines.com, there are given informations like W/O-7114, W/O-7113, W/O-7115. Is that the location or altitude? What is the difference between seeds of the same species from W/O-7113 and W/O-7115? Do the plants looks different or does it have a different frost hardness??

Ole
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: arisaema on December 01, 2018, 03:54:03 PM
What is the difference between seeds of the same species from W/O-7113 and W/O-7115? Do the plants looks different or does it have a different frost hardness??

Since I'm the O in W/O I guess I can answer... ;) Those numbers are just collection numbers, click on the name and you'll get more information about locations and altitudes. The pictures of C. rhodocephalum are from Xiaoxueshan, I haven't seen those on Daxueshan in flower but I highly doubt there's much difference among them. At 4000m+ altitude they will be bone hardy, I would be more worried about heat tolerance.

We have Trollius lilacinus (as Hegemone lilacina) and Saussurea involucrata listed this year as well, the seeds are bought (rather expensively) from a collector in Xinjiang, but guaranteed true to name.
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Lesmona on December 01, 2018, 10:38:01 PM
Since I'm the O in W/O I guess I can answer... ;) Those numbers are just collection numbers, click on the name and you'll get more information about locations and altitudes. The pictures of C. rhodocephalum are from Xiaoxueshan, I haven't seen those on Daxueshan in flower but I highly doubt there's much difference among them. At 4000m+ altitude they will be bone hardy, I would be more worried about heat tolerance.

We have Trollius lilacinus (as Hegemone lilacina) and Saussurea involucrata listed this year as well, the seeds are bought (rather expensively) from a collector in Xinjiang, but guaranteed true to name.

Hi Arisaema, thanks for the informations. Do you have plants of of Saussurea involucrata and Trollius lilacinus too?

Ole
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: arisaema on December 02, 2018, 02:28:10 AM
Hi Arisaema, thanks for the informations. Do you have plants of of Saussurea involucrata and Trollius lilacinus too?

Only seeds, even if we had a supplier of cultivated stock (we don't), these just wouldn't do well bare-rooted and shipped across two continents...
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Steve Garvie on December 02, 2018, 08:50:55 AM
Hi Bjørnar,
Can I ask you about the difference between your collected Lilium georgei and Yijia Wang’s Lilium saccatum? Are these one and the same species or do you think they are different? On the map the collection sites appear to be over 1800km apart by road (with part of North-east India and Myanmar in between as the Raven flies).

Yijia’s Tibetan collection of “SACCATUM?/PARADOXUM?” looks interesting. Is there any further info on this?

Is there any prospect of more L. yapingense seed in the future?

Sorry for the inquisition!  ;)
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Lesmona on December 02, 2018, 10:37:32 AM
Only seeds, even if we had a supplier of cultivated stock (we don't), these just wouldn't do well bare-rooted and shipped across two continents...

Hi Bjørnar,

what is the best soil for cultivating plants from the Himalaya? I have read the soil is mineral without organic components. I use a mineral soil mix of Perlite, Sand, Vermiculite, Diatomite, Lavalit, Brick dust, Shale slate, Quartz sand, Pumice, betonite, diatomaceous earth, big and small stones and mykorrhiza. I have tested one Rheum nobile plant in compost and peat, it died. My other plant life good in the mineral mix but Meconopsis, Primulas etc. growing puny. A fertilizer with nitrograin kills the plants (maybe I gave to much). Should I fertilize or will mykorrhiza nourish my plants?

My Rheum nobile is 3 years old now. I cool my plants in the summer with ice near the roods. But I must protect them from fungal diseases with a fungicide.

I would be glad for tips.

Ole
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: arisaema on December 02, 2018, 11:18:37 AM

Can I ask you about the difference between your collected Lilium georgei and Yijia Wang’s Lilium saccatum? Are these one and the same species or do you think they are different?

I honestly don't know, I've never seen L. saccatum. My guess would be that they are one and the same, but obviously distinctly different from L. souliei. Gaoligongshan and Medog do share a lot of the same flora, and it's still among the most inaccessible and least explored areas left in this world.

Quote
Yijia’s Tibetan collection of “SACCATUM?/PARADOXUM?” looks interesting. Is there any further info on this?

There are more pictures on his web page. It's a collection from somewhere between Linzhi and Motou/Medog, so it would be from within the range of both species.

Quote
Is there any prospect of more L. yapingense seed in the future?

August will try getting the permits for next autumn, they've really tightened up access to the border areas over the last couple of years, it used to be pretty porous.
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: arisaema on December 02, 2018, 11:32:04 AM
what is the best soil for cultivating plants from the Himalaya?

Roughly speaking, you come across three types of soil - the typical clayey, red loam Yunnan is famous for; a humus based, completely organic soil (either peat or leaf mold); and rotten slate/fine limestone gravel. Rheum nobile is a scree plant, I've seen it growing in rotten slate, which holds moisture really well but also offers perfect drainage.

Most, but not all, Meconopsis and Primula grow in peaty soils, and even the scree species seem to enjoy a well-drained, peaty mix as long as they are allowed to dry out over winter. In a peaty mix you also won't have to worry too much about using fertilizer, I used to use Osmocote out of laziness.
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Leucogenes on December 02, 2018, 12:35:02 PM
Roughly speaking, you come across three types of soil - the typical clayey, red loam Yunnan is famous for; a humus based, completely organic soil (either peat or leaf mold); and rotten slate/fine limestone gravel. Rheum nobile is a scree plant, I've seen it growing in rotten slate, which holds moisture really well but also offers perfect drainage.

Most, but not all, Meconopsis and Primula grow in peaty soils, and even the scree species seem to enjoy a well-drained, peaty mix as long as they are allowed to dry out over winter. In a peaty mix you also won't have to worry too much about using fertilizer, I used to use Osmocote out of laziness.


I had the same question... but Ole was faster than me.😊

Many thanks for helpful and detailed information.

Thomas
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Lesmona on December 02, 2018, 09:26:54 PM
Roughly speaking, you come across three types of soil - the typical clayey, red loam Yunnan is famous for; a humus based, completely organic soil (either peat or leaf mold); and rotten slate/fine limestone gravel. Rheum nobile is a scree plant, I've seen it growing in rotten slate, which holds moisture really well but also offers perfect drainage.

Most, but not all, Meconopsis and Primula grow in peaty soils, and even the scree species seem to enjoy a well-drained, peaty mix as long as they are allowed to dry out over winter. In a peaty mix you also won't have to worry too much about using fertilizer, I used to use Osmocote out of laziness.

Thanks for the information. I'm surprised! I did not expect them to grow in peaty soil, I only see rocks and gravel in photos. Peaty soil comes from the moor, how can there be peat without a moor? Why is the clay red, does it contain iron?

Ole

Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: arisaema on December 03, 2018, 02:29:22 AM
Peaty soil comes from the moor, how can there be peat without a moor? Why is the clay red, does it contain iron?

Humus based would probably have been more correct, but in cultivation that basically equals peat. There's a lot of wetlands with "peaty, black muck" and small Rhododendrons, and the grasslands where a lot of the plants we cultivate are found also consist of a similar thin layer of sapric soil on top of clay.
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Steve Garvie on December 03, 2018, 09:09:35 AM
At no level could I be considered a competent grower (read this to the background music of “Send in the Clowns”), nor do I have any knowledge whatsoever of these plants in their natural habitat but I would venture this. If you try to grow these plants in a close copy of their natural soil conditions in a lowland garden they will be dead in no time. Using a soil mix with a high organic content simply encourages fungal rots to which most high altitude Sinohimalayan plants have no resistance. I have more success by using soil mixtures which are 80%+ inorganic using materials that result in a high air-filled porosity (perlite, pumice, baked Moler clay) -especially if the plants are pot-grown. I find soil pH to be less important but plants from limestone areas do well with added dolomitic lime whilst calcifuges do best with added coarse silica sand/grit or granite). Plenty of moisture flowing past the roots is good but it is better to keep the top-growth dry at the start and end of their growing season. Try to keep these plants cold (but not frozen-through if in pots) and dry in Winter. In my climate full exposure to sun and wind whilst in growth produces harder, more compact plants. Beware of greenfly -especially on new growth of Cremanthodium and Hegemone.

If you want to grow these plants at sea level then move to Tromsø.  ;)
https://en.uit.no/tmu/aktuelt?p_document_id=576165
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: arisaema on December 03, 2018, 10:21:37 AM
Steve has a very good point, I've only tried groing them in Norway (far south, so in line with the northernmost of Scotland), but where summers are warmer you will have to adjust your mix. I did grow Cremanthodium campanulatum in a peat bed where it appeared to seem perfectly content, but that species grows in soggy conditions in pure humus in the wild.
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Lesmona on December 04, 2018, 10:53:09 PM
Steve has a very good point, I've only tried groing them in Norway (far south, so in line with the northernmost of Scotland), but where summers are warmer you will have to adjust your mix. I did grow Cremanthodium campanulatum in a peat bed where it appeared to seem perfectly content, but that species grows in soggy conditions in pure humus in the wild.

Thanks Steve,

yes, I use only a mineral mix for my himalayan plants too. I have had bad experiences with compost and peat. My first attempt with 10 plants of Rheum nobile failed. I planted them in compost. Of course there are no problems with that in the cool Himalayas, but apparently the winter and the wetness is the reason why the plants die here in Europe and not in the dried himalayan winter. My Rheum nobile plant gets mildew and root rot.  I use the fungizide "Alliette", it works good again root rot especially for young plants. I think the biggest evil is the heat. I am also like them, Africa is too hot for me too  ;D

My plants are in large pots in the garden. I protect it with sacks of leaves on the edge. On top of it are slices.



My soil is very acidic. I have a problem with moss and the common liverwort. What can I do against it?
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Leucogenes on December 24, 2018, 11:15:51 AM
Hi Steve

A few minutes ago I got the delivery from chinesalpines. There were also seeds of Cremanthodium decaisnei. Do I have to treat these seeds with GA3 acid...or can I look normal? I don't know anyone else who has such treasures...😊

On this way I would like to send my best greetings and wishes for Christmas to everyone here...especially of course to Maggi and the team.

Thomas
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Steve Garvie on December 24, 2018, 11:50:48 AM
Merry Christmas Thomas,

I find that Cremanthodium seed is best sown as fresh as possible. The seed does not seem to be viable if stored for long periods but does not need GA3 treatment. Sow the seed now in a gritty well-drained compost. Germination occurs with rising Spring temperatures.

Our maritime winters here are getting milder but we still get intermittent hard frosts. This is a problem as a mild spell in January can encourage some seed to germinate -only for the seedlings to be killed by the next hard frost. Keeping the seed in a frost-free greenhouse is the way to go as long as you keep the seedlings cool (too warm they become leggy and prone to Botrytis).

The winter here has been mild so far and already I have had some Cyananthus and Himalayan Androsace seeds germinate.
Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Leucogenes on December 24, 2018, 12:11:14 PM
Merry Christmas to you, too... Steve.

Thank you for a quick and helpful answer. I will start the second round of this year's sowing season in the next few days. I don't think my place will be enough this year either. (Picture )🤔

 We also wait for colder temperatures here. At the moment it is relatively mild and very rainy. As soon as we have snow here, I cover the sowing with it. So in spring I simulate the snow melting. Works pretty well...

Best wishes
Thomas

Title: Re: Trollius lilacinus, Cremanthodium brunneopilosum, Saussurea involucrata
Post by: Maggi Young on December 24, 2018, 12:39:47 PM

On this way I would like to send my best greetings and wishes for Christmas to everyone here...especially of course to Maggi and the team.

Thomas

Thank you Thomas!  All best wishes  from Fred, Maggi and Ian
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