Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Cultivation => Composts => Topic started by: Slug Killer on March 29, 2008, 03:18:45 PM
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Hi, I'm after some pumice as an Italian friend swears by it but I'm finding it hard to get hold of in the UK. Any ideas?
Ps I'm new here so this might have been covered before. Sorry if it has.
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Various folks have mentioned the use of Pumice, and we did have a query about availability of similar products in Europe, but came to no firm conclusions at that time. Some members have mentioned their trips to buy Pumice for their garden use, this has mostly been in Germany, as I recall. Let's hope someone comes up with a good suggestion for you SlugKiller. Welcome to the Forum, by the way!
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Hi, I'm after some pumice as an Italian friend swears by it but I'm finding it hard to get hold of in the UK. Any ideas?
Are you looking for pumice grit? If so I know a set-up who used to supply it in various grades and I'll be checking on Monday to see if they can still supply, as I need new supplies, so can post confirmation then.
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Hi, thanks that would be great. I did have some before that was around the 5mm-7mm size and I grew my Cypripediums in it. They loved the stuff with a mix of perlite, John Innes 1 and some fine Melcourt potting bark. We need more volcanoes in the UK :)
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Thanks Rob, what a forum, Ive been looking for ages and now I've just ordered some in less than a few hours of posting on here. :D :D :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;)
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I e-mailed first and got some knocked off as well, always worth a try ;)
Thanks everyone for your help.
Slug Killer
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Hi me again. Just wondering if anyone here as used pumice for Cyp seedlings as I've got some coming from Phytesia and they recommend putting in pumice for the first year after after coming out of the flask. I've lost a few in the past and it gets very expensive and I don't want to have any big losses. Any advice anyone?
Slug Killer
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Hi:
I wish pumice would be available here. There was only one chance to use it in the past. It was "raw" and dust had to be sieved off it but results were beyond praise.
After years of replacing (?) it with coarse sand, coarse perlite and grit (giving great results, I do not complain) a friend triumphally appeared with a really big bag of "volcanic sand": That material looked the best, like bread crumbs of many sizes, only a little "devilish", that is a disturbing faint sulphur stench could be smelled.
To summarize with, within a week lots of newly potted bulbs were dying for good!
I never tried "volcanic sand" again, you bet, and can only read about fortunate people having real pumice for their mixes.
Best regards
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Ok think I will give it a go. Maybe try and grow half in pumice and the other half in a different mix.
Regards
Slug Killer
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May seem a stupid question but are you talking about composts for Cyps in pots only?
If not, how would you use it?
Göte
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Good question, Göte. I have asked the opinion of a friend who is an orchid specialist, to see what he thinks about pumice as a growing medium for other orchids....more particularly indoor varieties.
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Wish I could locate a source of pumice in Spain!
Maggi, when you wrote about a product some people were looking in Europe, was that TURFACE?. It has a very good press in the States...
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Yes, José, it was Turface that was discussed.
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The person I have just bought some off (David) www.pumicesupplies.co.uk has some good information regarding pumice on the site under the INFO tab. As Rob said, you can use it on it's own and I have done this before but it did require a lot of feeding and watering. I now plan to use as a mix as I've suffered lately with rotting roots that have been water clogged. That’s the main advantage of pumice in the mix. I also use around the shoot as it protects it and stops it getting over wet. In my early days I had quite a few rot off which is expensive. Surprisingly when the main shoot does rot or snap off it normally gets replaced by two small nodes if your lucky.
I also use seaweed extract but use a much weaker dilution than the manufacturer recommends, I usually dilute half again as I find it too strong for my Cyps.
A friend in Italy who grows Cyps in the ground mixes pumice in before planting and has great results. I'll ask him to supply some photos when I speak to him next. Pumice is much cheaper there. Bit expensice here but you can use it again and again. If I'm spending £50 on a nice Cyp, what's a couple of quid for a decent mix.
Slug killer.
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Box arrived today via DHL. Very happy with the stuff as I don't like Tesco's finest cat stuff. Hopefully my Cyps will like it to.
Thanks for your help everyone, hope the weather holds for me tomorrow.
Slug Killer
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Pretty good delivery time since you only ordered a couple of days ago, eh?
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Yes very good service. It was sent DHL 2-3day service but I guess I was lucky as it was sent out on the Monday and I got it Tuesday. I do live next to a large DHL distribution centre, so this may have helped. Will have to order some more now as I was a short with my estimation of how much I'd need. Probably take a week to get here second time round. Usually the way.
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How does it compare with Seramis®?
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I've not used seramis as I could not find anywhere local and I had to order £70 worth from them direct. Will give it a go soon when I find some at a decent price.
Slug killer
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Thanks for the sample Dave. Will definitely be ordering some.
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Has anyone tried using the clay-granule cat litter stuff from Tescos in potting compost? I saw some the other day and it looked just like a much more expensive clay-granule growing medium called Moler that I used to buy for improving drainage. The cat litter stuff is half the price, but it seems to be lightly perfumed and says on the bag that it contains an "active odour controller" (which I assume just means a chemical scent). Anyone know if this perfume is likely to harm plant roots?
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I would assume a good rinse would remove it, perhaps with warm soapy water?
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Martin ,I tried it and it don't work, gets much too sticky just like real clay which it is, don't buy it.
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Martin ,I tried it and it don't work, gets much too sticky just like real clay which it is, don't buy it.
Thanks for that advice, Michael. I was hoping the Tesco's cat litter stuff would be okay as I'm sure I read in the forum somewhere recently that it was suitable to use in composts as a substitute for Seramis or something. But the last thing I want is a load of soggy clay in my alpine troughs! So the two bags I got will go in the cat litter tray instead.
I was hoping I could sneak it onto the household shopping expenses as cat litter and then actually use it as a lightweight compost drainage additive when I replant my troughs this Spring, which I've been wanting to do for the last three years. I can't order the much more expensive Moler or pumice grit as I've been told by my business partner and marital partner that I can't spend anything more on stuff for the garden this year as the main book distributors that we use for our small publishing business has gone into administration owing us huge amounts of money. But at least we now have a good stock of stuff for the cat to pooh on. ;D
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Martin - my experience as a potter is limited but I reckon if you fire your cat litter to a high enough temperature it would then make a good compost additive. Sounds like you should have fired the book distributors a while ago >:(
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Martin - my experience as a potter is limited but I reckon if you fire your cat litter to a high enough temperature it would then make a good compost additive. Sounds like you should have fired the book distributors a while ago >:(
I'm consoling myself with chardonnay and cheese and onion crisps. When that runs out, it'll be home-brew and cat litter. :D
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Hi Martin,
I'm looking for pumice as well.
I do use cat litter...but not Tesco's.
If you have an Avoncrop or other wholesaler for landscape and sports ground materials, you may find "Biosorb" this is used for soil conditioning and for animal litter. It works very well for a seramis substitute....but I think pumice may be better for in vitro weaning.
I still do mine in almost pure Biosorb, adding about 2% pine diff for acid lovers or Beechmold for alkali..
I used to use 10" clay pots but they dry out too easily so I now use good old fishboxes..5" of biosorb with a touch of pine duff finished off with another 1.5" pure biosorb.
The biosorb retains a darker pink when moist so its easy to tell when to water.
There is also Ultrasorb and others all proprietary diatomeous(sp?) earth products....high fired clay!
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the main book distributors that we use for our small publishing business has gone into administration owing us huge amounts of money.
Martin, I know the feeling very well, I have a copper kettle that takes pride of place on a shelf in the kitchen, full of (rubber)bounced cheques that I have been presented with over the years during my nursery and landscaping days. Every young chap that calls to me with a good idea and looking for advice about starting their own business gets handed the kettle ,and told to look inside and examine the contents before making a final decision. Needless to say most of their decisions are in the negative.
Kinda makes you loose faith in humanity after a while.
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I am not sure whether I have posted this before but it might be important so here we go:
Cat litter is manufactured and sold for cats' private needs - not for growing plants.
This means that the seller may switch material overnight without informing anybody.
As long as the cats like it it is sold regardless of how it serves other uses.
I know a kind of cat litter sold under a couple of names that will kill most plants grown in it.
I know because we commissioned Stockholm University to test it in their labs.
No I do not remember the names and it could surface under any brand name actually.
Anyone buying cat litter in a supermarket and growing sensitive things in it is taking a great risk
Göte
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Hi
Very interesting as I was going to try some with my Cyps and see what the difference would have been over twelve months compaired to pumice. Thanks for the tip, I'll give it a miss now.
Dave
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Dave,
Here is a pot of C. kentuckiense which have been grown in Biosorb for 2 years, hopefully a few will be at flowering size now as these are 4 years old going into their 5th year. Biosorb, although used as an animal litter is also used as a turf conditioner for sports grounds as I mentioned above, this is not available in Supermarkets and you will only find it in Wholesale Agricultural/landscaping outlets.
This is about 1/5 the price of Seramis and does very well. It is an agricultural product and will not kill your plants having a secondary use as animal litter. However the pumice above looks very good as well and I am going to source some.
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Hi, I'll have to try some Biosorb as it looks good stuff. I'll look at my Avoncrop CD and see if they sell it. My Cyps are coming on fast now and they have forcast a mini heat wave this weekend so will have to make sure they stay OK. Some pics so far this year. The first one has some leaf damage/discolouration as the sun got it.
(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk81/SlugKiller/IMG_7191800.jpg)
(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk81/SlugKiller/IMG_7190800.jpg)
(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk81/SlugKiller/IMG_7192800.jpg)
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Thanks for the Avoncrop mention, John. Had a look at their website and they have all kinds of interesting growing media to order by mail order - including what looks like good quality composted bark in different grades as well as Grodan granules that sound like a Seramis type product and all kinds of speciality fertilisers, composts, square pots, trays, etc.
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I've ordered from Avoncrop before and they are very good. The Melcourt Potting bark they sell is great stuff as it's clean and small, ideal for Pleione etc. I did order a bag of Melcourt Orchid bark and found the chunks far to big for my needs but useful for filling up space in large pots.
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The RHS are good at sourcing stuff if you ask. When I wanted pumice, they put me in touch with Viresco, Thirsk, N.Yorks
-the company sent me samples of different grades of pumice before I placed an order, which was really helpful. Admittedly
after a few trials of different mixes I settled on a Seramis based Cyp compost (as used by Ratcliffes) and haven't killed a
Cypripedium since!!!
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Dave, those spotted leaf cyps look very healthy. Are they under cover and how do you water them?
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Hi, all my spotted Cyps are undercover in a cold frame. I water from the top until they come in to leaf and then place on a capillary mat with a wick going over the side of the pot to get some moisture in the top. They are grown in mainly pumice with a little John Innes No1 and fine bark in the top half only. I do water very carefully now and again from the top, taking care not to wet the leaves. All my Cyps are now in pumice. Next year when re-potting I will probably run the capillary wick inside the pot from top to bottom. The two in he photo below will be open any day now.
(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk81/SlugKiller/IMG_7275800.jpg)
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Pumice is also an excellent growing medium for some of the trickier alpines. Plants I have growing in pure pumice include Kelseya uniflora, Nierembergia patagonica, Weldenia candida, and a couple of the South American rhizomatous oxalis. If it were cheaper and more readily available, I'd use a great deal more of it.
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Just picked up this thread and may have an idea which could work.
One of the main uses for pumice is in the manufacture of building blocks - the 'fair face' version of 'breeze blocks'.
Deliveries to the manufacturers are made in huge truck loads, and are a mix from dust up to 15mm or so.
Try asking your local block maker (they are seldom far from their market) if he has it - a bucketful or two would cost very little, and sieving it for the right size quite easy.
See what else he has too, all lightweight blocks use inert granular materials which could be used in composts.
John
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Nice idea but it's not horticultural grade pumice, I have already tried it from a local supplier in Shropshire. The pumice used in building blocks has been kiln dried to very high temperatures and produces a hell of a lot of dust and will crumble very quickly unless compacted in to a light weight block (brick). Generally the pumice used for horticultural use is pre-washed pumice GRIT and is very different from a pumice stone. Some of the smaller kiln dried stuff (1-3mm) is pretty good for very small seedlings like Cyps bought in from the like of Phytesia but needs drenching in water to remove most of the dust.
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I have never seen kiln dried pumice used in blocks. Generally it is stored outside in heaps and drying would be a waste of cash!
I do agree that there are very different grades of pumice depending on the source - but for blocks they are generally shipped in huge quantities direct to the block makers.
Suggest you try a different block maker - Good Luck!
John
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Perhaps your right it's just what I was told at the local brick maker down the road. He might have meant it was kiln dried after or during the blocks making? To be honest I'll stick to buying horticultural grit grade stuff and not go for any cheaper options (like cat litter instead of seramis) as my plants are worth to much money and I'd hate to loose them just for the sake of saving a few ££££. I'm all for saving as costs are high these days but I'll be the coward on this occasion and let someone else try it out first ;)
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The discussion in this thread makes me think that the word pumice is being used for two kinds of rock with quite different horticultural properties.
The pumice I use for plants is very light and can be described as a mineral froth. It forms when magma is expelled from a volcano very quickly, and the dissolved gases in the magma expand when it enters the lower pressure of the atmosphere. Being porous, this kind of pumice retains moisture very well.
There's another kind of pumice sold in blocks for sanding down the rough skin on one's feet and similar purposes. It might do as a grit in potting composts, but I doubt it is sufficiently porous and water-retentive to do well as a growing medium. I think this kind may form by consolidation of beds of very fine volcanic dust under the action of water.
In addition, there is volcanic ash. It's vesicular, but lacks the very fine porosity that makes horticultural pumice so useful. Doesn't hold moisture at all well, and useful only as the gritty component in soil mixes. I've seen red and black forms of it sold in bags for use as an ornamental top dressing on flower beds. Not very ornamental, to my eye!
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Black and red as ornamental, yuk (my opinion).
Below is a picture of what I use both as a mix and on its own for some young Cyps. It holds 15-20% of its weight in water when drenched. My spotted Cyps used to suffer before I started using this mix but seem very healthy now as it bulks up the mix and provides better drainage. By using it on its own for the last inch I no longer suffer with neck rot early on in the year. This was sold to me as horticultural pumice grit and I've been very pleased with it so far. Green leaves in the background as just a few of my Pleione.
(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk81/SlugKiller/pumice.jpg)
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Dave, I grow Disa as well as other Hardy Orchids but I am not happy with Pumice I will stay with
Dyna-Rok as I was telling Anthony this has far better capillary action it is virtually indestructable when it comes time to repot I wash it through give it a good soak in Milton disinfectant rinse it and if you are lucky enough to have a wife at home send her to the shops and put it in the Microwave for a couple of minutes and it is back ready to use. This is a USA product so I think there will be other users out there.
I forget what I paid for Pumice but Dyna-Rok is £25.0 for 40 ltrs + £10.50 postage.
I am not sure about saying the retailers name on here but if anyone is interested send me a PM.
They also do other Orchid fertilisers.
Derek
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Derek, no problem with telling us the manufacturer or retailers' name here .
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Hi Derek
I would be very interested in having a look at some and trying it out. I paid £15.99 for 30ltr of pumice + £8.50 postage and when it arrived there was more like 45ltrs there :).
Just done a search for it, what grade were you using?
http://www.mamhorticulture.co.uk/index.php?cPath=22&osCsid=eb3ae84cbb79ab37705a2b884291ada6
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Dave Yes that`s the firm I use the fine grade for Disa etc but use themedium for Cattleya and all other orchids, it is a very good firm the only thing is you have to pay by phone but that is no trouble and is usualy delivered in 3 days, their orchid fertilisers are good as well. I have been using them for the past 3 years.
Derek
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Maggi the firm is MAM Horticulture, 16 Old Glebe, Tadmarton, Banbury,Oxon. OX15 5TH.
E-mail: LaeliaM@aol.com Phone 01295 780824.
I am not sure what you think but I think if we order from a firm who`s name we got from the forum we should tell the firm then maybe they will advertise in the Journal.
Derek
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Maggi the firm is MAM Horticulture, 16 Old Glebe, Tadmarton, Banbury,Oxon. OX15 5TH.
E-mail: LaeliaM@aol.com Phone 01295 780824.
I am not sure what you think but I think if we order from a firm who`s name we got from the forum we should tell the firm then maybe they will advertise in the Journal.
Derek
Derek, that is an excellent idea!
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Does anyone have other contact details for tihs pumice site: http://www.pumicesupplies.co.uk/? I was planning to order some pumice as I have some seedling cyps arriving soon, but the website address just takes you to the hosting firms website now.
Failing that, has anyone ordered pumice from Viresco, and can they give it the same glowing reports that the other supplier's product has?
Thanks,
Peter
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Failing that, has anyone ordered pumice from Viresco, and can they give it the same glowing reports that the other supplier's product has?
Thanks,
Peter
I've been buying pumice grit and Moler clay granules from Viresco for years now and always been very happy with the quality, the speedy delivery and the friendly service on the phone. I assume you have contact details.
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Thanks for the advice Martin, I have the address from their website, but it's good to know they are quick with the delivery - I'll be needing some by midweek!
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If you need fast delivery, you can order the pumice grit by phone on (you probaby have the number) 01845 525585 and pay by credit card. They might even be there on a Saturday.
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Can't you get that dreaded white perlite in fine granular form... its equivalent to turface...
those large white chips looks fairly crude but probably better suited for a soil
amendment. I would crush the large pieces and get a mixed grade
perlite here is only available in medium grade but it is cheap. the only problem is that
it is light like plastic and tends to float to the top..
http://www.perlite.net/
this is my 2.5 pence worth to try out my new pic
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And a very nice pic it is, Stuart... can you post a bigger version here, so my poor eyes can see what it is? I'm thinking Campanula......?
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Edraianthus pumila
seed exchange grown my first full flowered plant ever
thought only you scottish rockers can do it but I lucked out..on an easy one!
well that's not entirely true as aethoinema's and arenaria's, a few dianthus etc.. almost hide their
foliage here too.
Not to brag but I probably have only less than 1000 pix this year as I actually did some gardening and picture taking is only a fraction of what I think is good for a day as each day their usually is a plant of the day worth shooting during the growing season but by the time I get around to shooting the lighting conditions are not always ideal.
I could do a blog like Kristal has going thru month to month...
Stuart