Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: shelagh on January 09, 2017, 05:03:02 PM
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All forumists will know that I am not one of the best at retaining info, but stuck in my mind (probably via Diane Clement) was that when you sow Trilliums put a label in saying keep for 2 years because the first year they do their thing underground. I was astounded when Brian brought in a pot of our own seed which I sowed in August 2016 and they're all coming up. What's happening, have I got it wrong or does it depend which Trillium it is?
I will do my best to remember what you tell me ;)
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I find that sometimes, but not always, when sowing very fresh seed that it will germinate in the following spring. I think some triilliums are easier to germinate than others - I seem to have several pots of ungerminated T. erectum lying about! I had a look at my trillium seeds from last year's seedex, soaked overnight and sown in late January. I soaked these briefly in GA3. There are signs of germination in T. maculatum, rivale and cuneatum. I don't give up on trillium seed for 5 or 6 years at least.
I wonder whether fresh seed germinates rapidly if there is a bit of warmth after it is sown, before winter sets in. Last summer I sowed several pots of T hibbersonii and left them in the greenhouse till October to keep them warm. Other pots were placed straight outside. I will try to find these tomorrow and report back if there are any signs of growth.
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It seems that there are big differences between various Trillium species regarding germination. Even more, there are differences in between various populations of the same species.
I can only give precise examples for T. grandiflorum and T. erectum that I collect and keep moist right away after collecting (at warm until October then I place in cold storage). Depending on the locality/ populations, there can be 60% or more seeds germinated (rhizome only) by October (coll. in mid July usually in Ontario). The germination is random in seeds of the same provenience.
If placed at cold in Oct. by Jan. some can start expanding the cotyledons, but some will remain in the stage with cotyledonary tube attached to the seeds till spring - see image.
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I will write in this old thread, because there is talk about the same thing I'm writing about.
I have now been lucky to sow fresh seeds from my own plants in two years. The seeds ripen here in late August/early September, and then I put them in moist vermiculite in a zip log bag and keep warm about 18-20C. Last year the seeds started to form root (or rhizome) in late December, about four months in warm, at which time I potted the seeds and put the pots in cold stratification. They then germinated well (formed first leaf) four months later in early May.
Last autumn I did the same, and again four months later in early January there were roots and now seeds are in cold and hopefully germinate in the spring.
These Trilliums were T.chloropetalum and T.kurabayashii (and this year I got fresh seeds of T.cuneatum which also did the same), but I also had my own fresh seeds of T.erectum, which did not form root in that time in room temperature, or germinate yet.
I have been thinking if could there be differences in the temperature requirement of different species for this warm period. For peonies some species need +20C to form the root, and some only +10 (and they don't break the dormancy in higher temperaturea). Can there be something like that also for Trilliums?
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< For peonies some species need +20C to form the root, and some only +10
Hi Leena,
do you (or someone else here) know, which peonies need "only +10°"
thx and greetings
Bernd
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< For peonies some species need +20C to form the root, and some only +10
Hi Leena,
do you (or someone else here) know, which peonies need "only +10°"
In my experience P.officinalis and it's relatives germinate best in temperatures +10 -12C (not in room temperature), and also P.obovata may need lower temperatures than P.lactiflora.
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Interesting :o
Thanks for the Info.
Bernd
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Leena, an interesting observation. My trillium seeds are usually ripe in July or August, depending on species, and sometimes I have had rhizomes formed during the first winter and leaves in spring - but not always. I leave the pots outside, unprotected from the weather. They certainly do not get 4 months of 18 - 20C in late summer/autumn (or indeed at any season in Scotland!)
I think I will try your method and see if it gives faster results. By the way, I find T. erectum germination can be very slow or fail completely!
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Carolyn, thanks for your experience. I don't know what the temperature for rhizome formation should be, 18-20C just happened to be what it was, but maybe lower temperatures also work like your wrote.
Here cold comes too early, and I haven't tried them outside at all, it may be only a month after seed ripening to the frosty nights and very low day temperatures. The only Trillium which I have managed to sow outside and have germination in the first spring, is T.nivale, but its seeds ripen already in early July, so they have a lot more time before autumn, at least two hotter months with temperatures close or above 20C and even September can be 10-20C here. October is usually below 10C.
I just thought to write about this, because earlier I had thought that Trilliums always need two cycles of seasons and germinate only the second spring.
By the way, I find T. erectum germination can be very slow or fail completely!
This is good to know! Also for me T.chloropetalum has been better to germinate than T.erectum, even from dry seeds.
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How are your experiences with Trillium camschatcense? Here (= Allgäu, mountains, approx 1000NN sometimes snow in June) I brought them to "survive",
but they always have to fight with late frosts. This year I'm confident of getting seeds for the second time and I don't want to go wrong.
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How are your experiences with Trillium camschatcense? Here (= Allgäu, mountains, approx 1000NN sometimes snow in June) I brought them to "survive",
but they always have to fight with late frosts. This year I'm confident of getting seeds for the second time and I don't want to go wrong.
I once bought fresh seeds of this from Yuzawa Engei in Japan and I have waited 5 years.... still no germination!
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:'(
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In my (somewhat limited) experience, the larger-growing the species of Trillium, the longer it takes to germinate. But that's a very inconsistent judgement. For me the only species which germinates regularly and early (as if it were an iris or anything else bulbous) is T. rivale. All the others take from 2 to 8(!) years and the longer times are usually for the big species such as chloropetalum, though angustifolium takes only 18 months or so if the seed is reasonably fresh at sowing. My friend Dave Toole who grows many trilliums of all kinds, and who lives in a mild but damp climate, (bottom of the South Island of New Zealand) is the genius with Trillium seed and I think has posted about it on the Forum previously. At any time he has many pots of seed and seedlings and I think they also grow in his pockets, up his sleeves and in his moustache and hair as well as in pots in the open and in his shade house. He always has thousands on the go. He does have various timings which he applies but even so, the seeds come through for him regardless of time, season, weather.
Overall, freshness is probably the key and for me, I simply sow as soon as they ripen or as soon as I obtain them then wait and hope.
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My experience with Tt. cuneatum, a sessile hybrid, and kurabayshii mimic yours, Leena, when I have them inside. Although, at the end of the warm treatment, the temp does go down to about 15C, just because it is cooler in the winterl where I have kept them. I do have T. cuneatum and the sessile hybrid that reseed spontaneously in the garden. I was quite surprised when I first spotted the seedlings. I didn't think the area would be very conducive for their growth.
Trillium sessile hybrid:
[attach=1]
Trillium cuneatum:
[attach=2]
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Rick, thanks for confirming my experience with inside growing. My experiece is still so limited and short, and I don't have any Trilliums yet germinating outside though I know some seeds which had escaped from seed pods before I could get to them:).
Carolyn, I just remembered that also T.hibbersonii from your fresh seeds germinated the first spring :). I sowed the seeds straight to a pot in early summer so I don't know how and when they formed the rhizome, but next spring there were seedlings, the whole potful.
How are your experiences with Trillium camschatcense? .
I have sown once 2014 dry seeds from Holubeck, and they never germinated. I think I have unfortunately discarded that pot now, will have to check in the spring.
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Although, at the end of the warm treatment, the temp does go down to about 15C, just because it is cooler in the winterl where I have kept them.
Maybe this is what is needed, in autumn the temperatures drop in the nature too. Maybe this can also affect the root/rhizome formation??
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therefore, if sowing from dry seeds, the pots should not be thrown out for 7 years. :o
i start to have a collection of pots on hold..only in the long run, the earth settles.
luckily, I also received some fresh seeds last summer and I have hope for this spring: I am waiting for you to tell me when the first leaves come out, to go and visit them one by one. the problem is that these old seedling pots, I tend to lose interest in them, and you have to keep watering them.
this year I believe it! :D
It is only with you that I can talk about these seeds that take too long to germinate and my stubbornness in sowing them: elsewhere, I would be taken for crazy ...
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After a few years old pots of ungerminated seedlings can get tossed on the border soil - and that can lead to some nice surprises in coming years as recalcitrant seeds finally decide to grow!! And yes, Véronique, we're all crazy! But in a good way! :D :D
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Maybe this is what is needed, in autumn the temperatures drop in the nature too. Maybe this can also affect the root/rhizome formation??
I strongly believe Leena that the fluctuations in outdoors temp. have an influence on the dormancy release of various seeds, and not only for Trillium. I also mean the fluctuations from day to night temp. which are more pronounced in late fall.
Reason why, by sowing and keeping the pots outdoors sometimes leads to different results than when providing stratification in the house/fridge at constant temp.
Trillium wise: Trillium erectum always germinates mainly in the second year, even when sown fresh. Maybe there is not enough time for its warm period in the first season. or who knows...The seeds here mature in August.
This year I will be able to add more knowledge for T. luteum germination: for two years in a row when I obtained only one capsule with few seeds, I planted them right away outdoors and they always germinated promptly in the spring (seeds mature in mid August here).
Last year when I had more seeds for the first time I also stratified them in a bag and kept them in the house: room temp. and since late Nov. to cold. None of the seeds have formed rhizomes to this day.
It will be interesting to see how they will evolve as the spring approaches.
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And yes, Véronique, we're all crazy! But in a good way! :D :D
I agree! :)
I strongly believe Leena that the fluctuations in outdoors temp. have an influence on the dormancy release of various seeds, and not only for Trillium. I also mean the fluctuations from day to night temp. which are more pronounced in late fall.
Reason why, by sowing and keeping the pots outdoors sometimes leads to different results than when providing stratification in the house/fridge at constant temp.
Last year when I had more seeds for the first time I also stratified them in a bag and kept them in the house: room temp. and since late Nov. to cold. None of the seeds have formed rhizomes to this day.
It will be interesting to see how they will evolve as the spring approaches.
Gabriela, thanks for your thoughts, and I agree about the fluctuation. Some seeds germinate better when they are outdoors (under snow) over winter even here. Mostly I think especially Ranunculacea are better sown that way, and even so they may take two years. I'm just impatient to get more Trillium plants, and that is why I use the ziplog method:), and it seems to work at least for some species. Maybe T.erectum needs different conditions than some other species.
T.luteum: I got seeds in early October last year, soaked them overnight and put in vermiculite in ziplog bag Oct 3rd, and bag was kept inside. In Jan 26 I had sowed the seeds in a pot and put it in the cellar for cold stratification. I had written in my notebook, that there were good roots(rhizome) at that time ( I had also some other T seeds without roots which I potted anyway, one of them T.erectum), but I don't know if all the T.luteum seeds had roots. Anyway, I will see in May how they will come up.
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[quote author=Leena link=topic=15015.msg418486#msg418486 date=1612257589
Carolyn, I just remembered that also T.hibbersonii from your fresh seeds germinated the first spring :). I sowed the seeds straight to a pot in early summer so I don't know how and when they formed the rhizome, but next spring there were seedlings, the whole potful.
[/quote]
That’s good to hear. It’s a species which does often come up in the first spring, if the seeds are fresh. I think the rhizomes form in late autumn - sometimes I can’t resist having a rummage in the pots to see!
By the way, your hepatica seeds all germinated last spring, so very soon I will be potting them on. Thanks!
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I certainly do believe that fluctuating temps affect seed development.
In the case of my trillium seeds inside, noting that the temp difference was only a few degrees at the end, I wonder if that was just a gentle nudge for the seeds. The seeds had already completed their initial stage of development and were just waiting and waiting for a little "encouragement" to go on. And I propose that a month before, assuming that initial requirement had been met, a larger temperature gradient would have been needed. I know that with certain Lilium spp., the effect (of the length of this "waiting" for the next development step) can go one of two ways: either increasing or decreasing the impetus strength needed to progress.
For seeds with arils, where insects bury the seeds, how would day and night temperature fluctuations affect these? If the seeds were buried, say 3 cm underground, is there a day/night temperature fluctuation? Perhaps exposed to direct daytime sun, but what about shade?
What about trillium seeds that don't get so buried, and just drop from the pod? These are certainly more exposed to diurnal fluctuations. I find a lot more evidence of this kind of germination, than seed that is carried away and buried. In fact for trillium, I haven't found that yet. (But really, only have 5 years of observations.)
Tangentially:
I didn't realize that Saruma henryi seeds have arils, but I guess they must? For 15 years I have never found a seedling near the mother plant, but there are many in the sunnier areas 3-4m away.
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Great ;D
Thanks for sharing your observations
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Gabriela, thanks for your thoughts, and I agree about the fluctuation. Some seeds germinate better when they are outdoors (under snow) over winter even here. Mostly I think especially Ranunculacea are better sown that way, and even so they may take two years. I'm just impatient to get more Trillium plants, and that is why I use the ziplog method:), and it seems to work at least for some species. Maybe T.erectum needs different conditions than some other species.
T.luteum: I got seeds in early October last year, soaked them overnight and put in vermiculite in ziplog bag Oct 3rd, and bag was kept inside. In Jan 26 I had sowed the seeds in a pot and put it in the cellar for cold stratification. I had written in my notebook, that there were good roots(rhizome) at that time ( I had also some other T seeds without roots which I potted anyway, one of them T.erectum), but I don't know if all the T.luteum seeds had roots. Anyway, I will see in May how they will come up.
The fact that Trillium erectum has a different dormancy than T. grandiflorum can also be observed in the wild populations. While carpets of T. grandiflorum can cover the woodland floor (and I showed pictures), T. erectum only shows up here and there and many times as isolated specimen or a small group (in this part of Ontario at least).
It is possible to be due to the fact that T. erectum requires mostly a 2 year period for dormancy release while T. grandiflorum has a high percentage of seeds which germinate in the first spring? Hard to say.
I am happy to hear about T. luteum! Were the seeds from me, or another accession?
My seeds were placed in a colder room in late Nov. like I mentioned, so if you kept yours at room temp. until Jan., it means quite a few more weeks at warm.
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I certainly do believe that fluctuating temps affect seed development.
For seeds with arils, where insects bury the seeds, how would day and night temperature fluctuations affect these? If the seeds were buried, say 3 cm underground, is there a day/night temperature fluctuation? Perhaps exposed to direct daytime sun, but what about shade?
What about trillium seeds that don't get so buried, and just drop from the pod? These are certainly more exposed to diurnal fluctuations. I find a lot more evidence of this kind of germination, than seed that is carried away and buried. In fact for trillium, I haven't found that yet. (But really, only have 5 years of observations.)
Tangentially:
I didn't realize that Saruma henryi seeds have arils, but I guess they must? For 15 years I have never found a seedling near the mother plant, but there are many in the sunnier areas 3-4m away.
It is very clear Rick, even if we follow only all the writings about Trillium germination in the forum, that there are differences between species in regards with their needs for dormancy breaking. That's why I think is best to write the species name not just Trillium when we refer to something.
Regarding the seeds with aril which get buried (in general), various studies have shown that many will actually not germinate because they are either too deep in the ground or in unfavorable conditions for germination.
Trillium grandiflorum and T. erectum seeds which may be found sometimes on the woodland floor, will just dry up in this part of ON. Late July and August are pretty hot here.
A percentage of those who are carried away, if not hidden too deep, will manage to germinate. But it will be a tough life for those young seedlings I have to say.
I am in awe every time I see those tiny one leaf seedlings in the woods and wonder how many will reach flowering stage.
Yes, Saruma seeds have arils (just like Asarum) but they dry up very fast and are not visible anymore. Seedlings can appear everywhere in the garden if the conditions are favorable.
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How much do you bury your Trillium seeds in the pot?
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How much do you bury your Trillium seeds in the pot?
I don't particularly pay attention to this, probably 1-1.5 cm; I keep the ratio between the seed size and sowing depth, like for other species.
In the second year there is usually a need to top up the pots with more mix.
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By the way, your hepatica seeds all germinated last spring, so very soon I will be potting them on. Thanks!
It is good:). They are just ordinary blue and pink ones but very hardy here, and have formed good clumps in my woodland bed. Much bigger than in the wild.
I am happy to hear about T. luteum! Were the seeds from me, or another accession?
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They were your seeds:). Thank you again, and hopefully when they flower, there will be also seeds from my lonely one T.luteum, which has never (in 5 years) set seeds:).
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Very interesting discussion! Between 2014 and 2018 I have been sowing a lot of Trilliums of different sources.
Seeds need to be fresh! If not I put them at least 24 hours in water and sometimes I used GA3. For me it is a hobby so I don’t need 90% succes. Some Trilliums like grandiflorum, cuneatum, ovatum, erectum, luteum, germinate very easy in our garden in Belgium if I don’t remove the berries it is like weeds. Reasons maybe:
- humusrich soil between shrubs, airy soil on top and deeper heavy soil.
- our winters start late, coldest period mostly Februari most frost.
- fluctuations in temperature periods.
- enough moist during the most of the year
(the last summers were sometimes to dry, so Trilliums did go early to rest)
In pot for sowing I use a humusrich airy mixture. For lime lovers I put some tufa in the mixture. The seedlings stay in the same pot till they flower. So I use big pots depending on the number of seeds. First I placed the seeds on top, but later I placed them allways around 3 cm deep (ants also move the seeds to a deeper position). Sometimes I saw one leave during the first year, then there were different periods of colder and warmer weather. But mostly one leave appears after two winters. The pots stay in the greenhouse because of troubles with birds (digging in the pots). At flowering stage they go in the garden, always in a group. Enough space (a few meters or more) between the different Trillium species, so the chance on crossings is less. Germination of Asian Trilliums is mostly very little, I think they like more moist then the American ones.
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Herman,
Some interesting observations. I remember that after the hard winter of 2010 i had some good germinations.
As for birds digging in pots outside, I put my seed pots in a tray and cover it with horticultural fleece. It keeps out weed seeds, old leaves etc too and offers some protection from slugs and mice.
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Herman, thank you for sharing your experience! Very interesting, there are so many different factors beside species to consider.
- our winters start late, coldest period mostly Februari most frost.
- fluctuations in temperature periods.
This is interesting, so you have long warm autumn (well, much warmer than here), and not very long winter. So also a shorter cold period is enough to have them germinate.
I am still very much learning about these plants. I sowed my first Trillium from seed ex seeds in 2011 and 2012, and most of them germinated well in 2013-14 (after two winters), and I had planted them as clumps in 2014, but unfortunately I lost them all (except one pot kept in the cellar) in a bad winter 2015-16, very cold without snow. Since then I have kept most of the pots in cellar overwinter, but some have survived also outside for several winters and the first from 2014 sowings flowered last spring (these were T.chloropetalum, T.parviflorum, and T.erectum).
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It is good:). They are just ordinary blue and pink ones but very hardy here, and have formed good clumps in my woodland bed. Much bigger than in the wild.
They were your seeds:). Thank you again, and hopefully when they flower, there will be also seeds from my lonely one T.luteum, which has never (in 5 years) set seeds:).
OK, thanks. I will make a small experiment - by bringing back inside to warm a sample of the seeds and see how much more warm they need (probably a month or so, if you say your seeds had rhizomes by January).
It may be that it needs cross pollination. Last spring I helped them with a brush and the results were good.
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Herman: it is good to know you keep them in pots until flowering. I planted in the ground 3 years old seedlings and some didn't made it. The young plants are sensitive and then there are the many squirrels digging and digging....Moisture is indeed essential for their survival, reason why in dry years very few seedlings appear in the woodlands.
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Here's an example of a 2014 seed pot: Trillium underwoodii
Picture is from March 2020. Sown 29/07/2014, first leave 13/01/16.
Trillium underwoodii is very early, it can be damaged by late frost. So I still need to look after the right place in the garden.
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It may be that it needs cross pollination.
I have been thinking about the same, so it would be good to have two plants. :)
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it's nice to see this beautiful Trillium bloom the 4th year after germination.
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A few Trilliums I am growing from seed. These came as surplus seed from the SRGC seed exchange last year (2019-20) so were not sown until March 2020. Each packet contained about 5 seeds. I wasn't expecting much as I know Trillium seed really needs to be sown pretty fresh, but there is something in nearly every pot. They have had no special treatment, just sown and left in the cold frame. I brought them into the conservatory once there were signs of life to keep them safe from slugs.
[attachimg=1]
Trillium ovatum
[attachimg=2]
Trillium kurabayashii
I also have T. sessile, albidum and hibbersonii coming.
[attachimg=3]
These T. rivale seedlings are from my own seed.
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Tristan you must be the trillium whisperer. I'm impressed you got such quick germination from dried seed.
Jan
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It's possible that the odd weather we had last year helped Jan. We had an abnormally hot and dry spring followed by a very cool and wet summer. This seems to have convinced several plants that they had an extra winter , so maybe the Trilliums thought so too?
I also sowed the seed quite deeply in the pots as per Ian's advice for and-dispersed seed, and left them in the coolest shadiest part of the cold frame if this helps.
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Trillium chloropetalum var. giganteum sown in July 2020 and already germinated and showing one leave!
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changing the name of the thread to add " from seed"
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in your opinion, in winter Trillium seedlings are better in a cold frame than in a small unheated greenhouse?
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Hi Veronique, I think that depends on your winter temperatures. But it's better to try to give them a decent cold period to stimulate germination. If your area has reasonably cold winters (i.e. prolonged spells of 4C and below) you should get good germination in a cold frame. Warm spells in the greenhouse, such as may occur with winter sunshine, may confuse the seeds and discourage germination. So yes, I think a cold frame (or leaving the pots outside in a shady place) is better. Keep an eye out for slugs once the weather warms up. My first seedlings came up in January.
For really consistent cold temperatures you could even put some pots in a fridge for a few months, checking them every week or so for germination.
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I only had 6 germinations ( 2 grandiflorum, 3 cuneatum and 1 angustifolium) out of about 15 differents pots, and I think it's because I left them in the greenhouse in winter (I love being in my greenhouse in winter watching the seedlings).
so I will have to put my pots outside. since there are too many slugs, I will have to bag them then ..
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I only had 6 germinations ( 2 grandiflorum, 3 cuneatum and 1 angustifolium) out of about 15 differents pots, and I think it's because I left them in the greenhouse in winter (I love being in my greenhouse in winter watching the seedlings).
so I will have to put my pots outside. since there are too many slugs, I will have to bag them then ..
Trillium needs very cold temperature to trigger the germination.
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Veronique, Any pots of seed without any seedlings showing, may still germinate. I would advise sowing seeds in pots that then get sunk in your garden (without any special protection) for the winter. I did this with extra seed I had of Trillium undulatum, and now I have a new challenge on my hands, how to separate a "Lawn" of Trillium seedlings (photo was from last year).
[attachimg=1]
It is even more crowded this year, so I will have to try and give the plants some space.
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Oh ! amazing Gordon! ;D it's all a small lawn ...
Yann, do you manage to germinate and cultivate Trilliums at home?
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Yann, do you manage to germinate and cultivate Trilliums at home?
Yes i've few ones in the garden for many years, i mostly sown for friends or swap but i don't keep seedlings. Sadely the garden can't extend itself. I let the pots outside, north facing without any protection and germination occurs in 2 seasons. T. rivale is usually the first one in less than 14-15 motnhs. Fresh seeds i was given were put in frigo in plastics bags+vermiculite for 2 months and then sown in october while it's still warm. They need 2 cycles cold/warm. Slugs can kill full pot in one night, that's my main problem otherwise like paeonies it's just a question of time but it's not complicated.