Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Primula => Topic started by: Fumi on December 30, 2006, 01:57:09 PM
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Okay, this may sound silly but it has been bugging me for some time so here it goes....
What exactly is P. allionii hybrids that I often encounter at various alpine/rock garden nursery's on-line catalog? Are they crosses of different clones of P. allionii or are they hybrids of P. allionii with some other species and/or hybrids?
Also, why do I not see a simple P. allionii species? It appears that they are always some 'hybrids' and/or selected clones (and I take it that when I see P. allionii 'XXX', that is a selected named clone of P. allionii species).
Some of you may have seen this same question as I'd posted it to primula mailing list which has been very quiet since I'd recently joined.
Thanks,
Fumi
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Well, Fumi, this is a question that vexes a lot of people, that's for sure!
Loosely speaking ( and that is a forte of mine!) I would say that many allioniis are pretty much forms of the species, with little or no outside blood: these are plants with flowers very close down on the foliage , with leaves that are quite small, tightly packed and very sticky.
Then there are the ones which are still very similar to the species, but have flowers held a little higher, bigger leaves, some evidence of other blood... these are the greyest area, they are really in no man's land as far as ID goes! Lastly there are the ones with flowers that are on little pedicels, not always visible because of their big flowers, they may have a tendency to multipe flower heads on close examination and their leaves may be less sticky, more open and show more evidence of extra genes, such as marginata- like leaves.
I DID say this was speaking loosely... fact is, it is tricky to delineate a lot of these primula types.
Now, that should dig a few primulas fans out of the woodwork to tell us their version of this tale!!
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Primula allionii occurs in Maritimes Alps and is a very beautiful species. The variable character of its flower has give to a crowd of cultivars. A large number of clones are in cultivation, some of which were originally collected in the wild.
I know only one naturally occurring hybrid. P. x minera (allionii x marginata)
In cultivation P. allionii has been successfully crossed with many other species.
P. allionii will also cross with a range of hybrids such as. allionii hybrids, P. marginata hybrids……Most P. allionii hybrids are fertile and of the seeds one gets again new plants. By those variability and the crossings there are so many selected named clones of P. allionii species).
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I think that most Primula allionii on offer are hybrid varieties, Franz gives a good description of the different crosses possible. Allionii seems to be a very naughty little lady and I suspect that garden collected seed of the species is unlikely to be true. I would only trust plants to be true species if grown from wild collected seed from the Maritime Alps.
If anyone know where I can get such a plant from or wild seed I would be interested to know.
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Fumi,
I can add very little to whar Maggi, Franz and David have said other than to agree with all of it. Primula allionii is "some fast lady" and will breed with any other Primula (that is part of the Auriculastrum section of the Genus Primula) within bees flight distance. Those desribed as Allionii Hybrids carry a varying percentage of allionii genes and sometimes the breeders are not entirely certain what other genes are included in the mix. Equally there are hundreds of "planned" hybrids and a vast number of forms of the species. As Franz said the wild Primula allionii comes from the Maritime Alps near to the Colle de Tenda pass on the border between France and Italy and I have seen wild seed offered but can't for the life of me remember where I saw it.
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Thanks everyone. I was afraid of hearing some of this and David Shaw took my question right out of my mouth (or is it fingers?). If it is most likely that P. allionii offered are hybrids, where can I find a true species - plants if in US or seeds if in Europe? Are there certain cultivars that are known to be a true species for sure?
I don't think I'll have a chance to visit Maritime Alps in the near future (actually, for a while) so I'm not sure if I'll be able to tell what is ture and what is hybrid. Based on Maggi's description, it seems that the first thing to look for is a very short or no flower stalk (i.e., sessile). Being very variable in flower, I take it that there isn't a typical color or form of this species.
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One more questions - how are those cultivars and hybrids propagated? In order to be true to their named parent, are all of them propagated vegitatively (i.e., division)?
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Primula allionii is available in the US from a number of nurseries, particularly those that deal in rock garden plants as a specialty. It should not be hard to find. It's a beautiful yellow in its most common form and is fragrant to boot.
Carlo
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Carlo, I think you are talking about Primula auricula, which is scented and yellow. P. allionii can have a little scent, but is mostly pinky-lilac
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Hi Carlo, nice that you're back with us. Are you sure about the most common (or any) form of P. allionii being yellow? May I suggest you are mixing it with P. auricula itself, as I thought (but stand to be corrected) that all forms of P. allionii were in a wide range of white through pinks, magentas etc, reddish.
Given what everyone has said above about the extreme fertility of all forms of P. allionii and its various hybrids, why is it so rarely seen in any shape or form on the societies' seed lists? It is almost NEVER offered in nurseries here (can only think of a single exception in recent years) and so is extremely rare in our rock garden collections. One grower who had imported a number of forms over time, moved away to the warmer parts of Australia and who knows what happened to her primulas? It would be great to be able to introduce some more.
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Perhaps this could be a project for someone who might have a chance to visit its habitat in 2007 - to collect seeds and post them to the SRGC seed exchange!?? This would surely get me on board (well, even without this, I will in 2007 for sure).
Or are they protected by any chance?
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Ahh, right you are! Sorry if I confused anyone other than myself...(perhaps a little more holiday cheer...)
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Jim Jermyn gives a lovely description of the first time he saw P. allionii in the Maritime Alps in his book 'Alpine Plants of Europe'. For myself this is one of those 'must visit' areas but I am afraid that it may never happen.
Allionii cultivars are dead easy to propogate by vegetative means. They are quite brittle plants and bits always fall off when repotting. These can be rooted either in a pot, with a label, or just poked into the sand of the plunge and they root readily.
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Fumi,
For a look at the habitat of P.allionii I recommend: www.primulaworld.com (great site by Pam Eveleigh) anotherone is www.wilking94fsnet.co.uk/seedlist.html it seems afther a try- out that www.users.totalise.co.uk/~viv.pugh/european_primulas.html does the trick ???(site of the nat.Auricula & Primula Society).
It shows some ''originals " and my favorites; Moonlight (bright-) and Lismore Yellow (sulphereous yellow) coloured. But Peter Lister's -Aire Mist remains my very best. P.allionii is fine in the greenhouse ,gritty calcareous dryish soil. Only one Pest; the taxusbeetle >:(!!
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P. allionii seedlings
Hans
from Austria
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Two beauties indeed Hans
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Not a patch on the Primula allionii seedlings Hans posted recently but I am quite pleased with my little allionii "Crowsley Variety" as it is the very first one I have been able to keep through the previous Summer and Autumn without it rotting off on me. Now that I've got the "knack" I must get some more!
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I really like the deep pink flowered allionii Hans - super big flower.
A couple in flower now for me: the first an unnamed clone, the second P allionii 'Jenny Seedling'
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Dave, how old is your plant please? Only because I need to know what to expect if I can keep mine through another Summer and Winter! :D
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David - probably about 5 or 6 years for both plants. I do get some problem with botrytis, with rosettes suddenly dying. If I don't catch this quickly, to remove the rosette, then large parts die back. I find the only option then is to pull the plant apart and start again with the uninfected rosettes. I don't find these plants easy, and I have a fan set above the bench where I keep these. But they are super when growing well..... Good luck with yours.
Dave
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Dave, thanks for that, I've got something to aim at now.