Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Amaryllidaceae => Topic started by: Hans J on January 17, 2008, 01:38:26 PM
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Today is flowering :
Sternbergia fischeriana
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I didn't know there was a yellow spring-flowering sternbergia Hans? Is it a new one because I will certainly put it on my wish list? :)
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Anthony ,
this is a long time descriptet species.
Regel ,Gartenflora 17:100 T.576 from 1868 ::)
it's comes from Azerbaijan ;D
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A yellow Sternbergia and so early, nice plant Hans.
Gerd
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Gerd ,
yes it is really early - St. candida shows until now no buds ....
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hi Hans
nice sternbergia.I flowered candida for the first time last year,I bought it from Christian about 10 years ago.It was a complete dissapointment,one I think better seen in the wild which I have not done,I am always too late.
We may be friends but I do not think I share your taste in music--Hakuna Matata
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Gerd ,
yes it is really early - St. candida shows until now no buds ....
Hans,
Sternbergia fischeriana AND Sternbergia candida, I must confess I am not free from envy!
Gerd
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Hi Hans,
so beautiful plant and so early ! Mine will not flower that year, too little bulb. Last year my candida made seed pod and my cat cutted it with his teeth before maturity !!! I was sad and desappointed !!! Perhaps it will flower again in 2008 with more chance.
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Lovely , Hans, and even better because you had some sunshine to make the photo... it is very dark and wet here in Aberdeen.
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Thank you all ! ;D ;D ;D
Gerd : there are still some Sternbergia's who I still search .....
Tony : Hakuna Matata is no music - it means : "Dont worry" or "No problem" - thats Suaheli - a very handy word in Africa
Maggi : we had some sun today ....but it's was very windy !
Dominique : I'm not shure if St. fischeriana is self fertil -but I will try it with pollination
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Hans, this is an interesting Sternbergia, but about S. candida: this flowered with a friend here in
Holland already in December. He told me this was because of the very warm weather in April last year.
I'll have a look in Gartenflora.
There is music with Hakuna Matata-Text: http://www.lionking.org/lyrics/OBCR/HakunaMatata.html (ftp://http://www.lionking.org/lyrics/OBCR/HakunaMatata.html)
Luit
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Thank you all ! ;D ;D ;D
Gerd : there are still some Sternbergia's who I still search .....
Tony : Hakuna Matata is no music - it means : "Dont worry" or "No problem" - thats Suaheli - a very handy word in Africa
Maggi : we had some sun today ....but it's was very windy !
Dominique : I'm not shure if St. fischeriana is self fertil -but I will try it with pollination
Yes, and Disney disnae pronounce Hakuna Matata correctly either. It is Ha-koo-na ma-ta-tah with all six syllables given the exact same length of time, like a row of quavers said at one every half second and the second, fourth and sixth syllables emphasised ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪
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Thank you Luit and Anthony !
I agree with my friend Tony now :
this is also not my taste of music !!!
so I have decide to make a other signature :
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Very nice pictures - Hans :)
This one bloomed in January in my garden :D
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Here is Sternbergia sicula, in flower now. This form is derived from a collection made by Dr John Marr near Dodona (JRM 3186). Coming from the northern part of the species’ range it does not require a hot, dry bake to make it flower (though it will tolerate such treatment).
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Oh, those are lovely.
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Gerry
Your Sternbergia are lovely.
Mine are just coming into flower. This is one collected by Alan Edwards. It is very floriferous with a minimum of two flowers per bulb.
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Arthur - I have a Sternbergia (?lutea) given to me by Alan Edwards a few years ago. I have never managed to flower it. Your lovely pics remind me of how it looked in Alan's garden. How do you treat it?
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Gerry
Whether I cosset or neglect it, this Sternbergia always flowers for me. Not sure why yours does not flower, nor what I can suggest to improve your chances.
Remind me next year and I will send you a couple.
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Arthur - many thanks for the offer. Looking at your pics again I'm not sure that this is the plant that Alan gave me. Yours looks as though it might be S. greuteriana, just coming into flower with me.
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Gerry you are not alone we grow two types of Sternbergia foliage, sicula and lutea. Mind you ours have never seen the sun since early May this year, it's now official August in this area saw 60% lesssun this year. To think I wasted my money on sun block, we are all looking (apologies to all Scots here for spelling mistakes) peelie wallie (which I think equates to pale and interesting).
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Since is you, Shelagh, I will allow the translation of peelie wallie as : pale and interesting, though it is perhaps better as: pale and sickly!! :P :-[
Also: you willl notice I have merged the two Sternbergia 2008 topics from different boards of the Forum into this single one 8)
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Maggi
I am glad you merged the two threads, as I had missed the earlier one - altho' it did puzzle me until I got to your post.
Has Ian had a chance to look at my post. Gerry thinks that my Sternbergia might be greuteriana, but they are not like the one in Ian's bulb log, nor like photos on Google. Would appreciate his thoughts.
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I'll draw this to Ian's attention, Art, though since we are working off a laptop at the minute, the quality of the pictures we are seeing is not up to much, so ID may be difficult!
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Art - I wouldn't go to the stake over this identification. My S. greuteriana has quite small flowers & my guess about your plant was based on the size of the flowers in relation to the size of the pot (of course it might be a very big pot!)
Maggi - my apologies, I hadn't noticed the previous posts on Sternbergia
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Gerry: not a problem, at all
Ian has had a squint at the pix..about all he can do on this monitor..... looks carefully, murmers about how nice these plants are... then says.... well, they're all sternbergias...and wanders of with a puzzled look on his face......fat lot of use that boy is, half the time ::) ???
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Further info - both my pots of greuteriana - just emerging - show flowers accompanied by leaves.
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Art - so do mine. So my identification is probably wrong. What size are the flowers on Alan's plant?
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"What size are the flowers on Alan's plant?"
Gerry
From soil to top of flower 8.0 cms Flower is approx 3.5 cms from the bottom of the ovary to the top of the flower. Flower width of course varies with the amount of opening, but is generally not more than 3.0cms.
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Hmmm.....we have S. greuteriana which comes up without leaves.......confused? oh, yes!
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Have taken another picture as more are now open. You can see that the one at back left has a flower and 2 buds.
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.......confused? oh, yes!
Art - your last picture is really nice & the plants are lovely. I'll take you up on your offer next year. Although the size is consistent with S.greuteriana they don't look much like the plants I grow & have seen elsewhere under that name....... as Maggi says....
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Here is Sternbergia sicula, in flower now. This form is derived from a collection made by Dr John Marr near Dodona (JRM 3186). Coming from the northern part of the species’ range it does not require a hot, dry bake to make it flower (though it will tolerate such treatment).
Being so close to the Med it wouldn't matter either way Gerry! ::)
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Is greuteriana only found on Crete? It is only supposed to have round tips to the petals.
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Here is Sternbergia sicula, in flower now. This form is derived from a collection made by Dr John Marr near Dodona (JRM 3186). Coming from the northern part of the species’ range it does not require a hot, dry bake to make it flower (though it will tolerate such treatment).
Being so close to the Med it wouldn't matter either way Gerry! ::)
You may be right about this form of S. sicula Anthony, but I find it matters with a Cretan form of S. lutea I grow. This needs a roasting to flower & will not perform outside in a raised S-facing bed even in my hot garden.
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Is greuteriana only found on Crete? It is only supposed to have round tips to the petals.
I thought it was only found on Crete but according to RBG Kew & Paul Christian it is also found on Karpathos. The Karpathos form is described as having obtuse petals & being stoloniferous. My - rather miserable - form of S. greuteriana, if it is that plant, has pointed petals & is not stoloniferous.
(Post added to on 4th Sept)
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One of mine S. colchiflora flowered this year after being neglected under the bench
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For more illuminating (or confusing) info on Sternbergia in the wild (including Karpathos) see Topic: Sternbergia 2007.
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Gerry
I would if I could find it. Search did not locate :(
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Art - I found it via Google. Enter Sternbergia greuteriana Karpathos. I'm beginning to wonder if this might be your plant. Does yours produce pea-sized offsets on the ends of stolons?
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Gerry
Found the site. http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1026.0
Still not sure mine are greuteriana. My two pots of known greuteriana appear to lean over as they emerge, whereas the 'disputed' pot all grow straight up.
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Sternbergias in my meadow and bulb bed.
Sternbergia sicula
Sternbergia lutea - grows in bulb bed better.
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Franz
Stunning :)
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as every your collection is jaw dropping
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Franz - your Sternbergias are superb. What beautiful plants!
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Franz I dont know if you have shown a photo but what does your meadow look like in the summer?
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Magnificent Franz ... and your plants are too!
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Art - Yes, my plants of S. greuteriana also emerge with the leaves & on a slant. I suspect this may be the Cretan form. I'm wondering whether yours is the Karpathos form which seems to be both less common & superior. The key feature seems to be the presence of stolons. If your plant is not S. greuteriana it's difficult to know what it could be given the size.
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Gerry
I will look for stolons some time in the future.
I must ask Alan for more details - do not know if he viited Karpathos.
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Mark,
Plant care is substantially watering.
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Franz,
you're a magician ! 8)
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Thank you all together for the kind comments.
Franz
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I am now able to post pictures of my greuteriana, together with sicula. Not the best photos I have ever taken, but the weather today has been atrocious and it was dificult to get flowers to open.
I am repeating my much admired sternbergia, and I think it is now obvious that it is not greuteriana - the flower is at least twice the size of greuteriana. The flower is also about 60% the size of my sicula.
Middle two pictures are greutriana, and the last one is sicula
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Art - I agree that your 'mystery' Sternbergia looks different to both your greuteriana & to mine. And my greuteriana looks different to yours! I'll try to post a picture when I have more flowers & less rain - in these conditions photography is virtually impossible. It would be really useful to know where Alan collected the plant & what he thinks regarding its identity.
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I won't interfere in the discussion about exact names, but it sure is a very nice potful Art !
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:) 8) :)
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Arthur, I am taking a break form trying to sort out our on going PC problems to catch up on the recent forum postings.
Your pot of Sternbergia sicula is beautiful whether it is true sicula I am not clear.
What I am convinced of is that most of what I have grown as sicula is at best a hybrid between sicula and lutea if not just a small narrow leaved variation of lutea.
I suspect S. sicula is like the one you show but as the best paper on Sternbergia is in German I am unable to find out the latest opinions.
I do not think that flowering with or without leaves is a reliable diagnostic as it can vary from season to season depending on temperature and moisture levels.
One thing for sure is they are all beautiful and you are lucky to flower them so well.
Hopefully I will be able to show some of mine flowering soon.
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Ian
If the bulbs multiply as well as it flowers, I will put your name on some for next year :)
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Sternbergia greuteriana.
This was given to me some years ago by Erna & Ronald Frank. I don’t know its origin. S. greuteriana is recorded from Crete & the Karpathos group of islands. Collected forms from Karpathos are reported to be stoloniferous & to resemble miniature forms of S. lutea. This plant is not stoloniferous &, insofar as it resembles anything, it is some forms of S. sicula. My guess, therefore, is that it may be Cretan in origin. I find it not very free flowering & suspect that it needs more of a summer bake than it currently receives
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Sternbergia lutea - I hope
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Sternbergia sicula cv. ‘Arcadian Sun’.
This form derives from a collection (C529) made by Herbert & Molly Crook in 1966 in the Peloponnese. It differs from the John Marr, Dodona form - posted on 1st Sept. - in several respects; most significantly, as can be seen in this photo, it usually has two flowers on each scape rather than one
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‘Sternbergia lutea angustifolia’ (not a currently accepted name). From a collection (MS 753) made in Crete by Mike Salmon. Plants distributed under this name are thought to be natural hybrids between S. lutea & S. sicula.
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Nice plant Gerry. Does all material going under 'Sternbergia lutea angustifolia' derive from this particular collection do you know?
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Ashley - I don't really know but I doubt it. I have the impression that these hybrid forms are quite common in the wild. Yes, it is a nice plant & my photo doesn't do it justice (as a rank amateur I find Sternbergias difficult to photograph) but, unfortunately, it is virused, so its future is in doubt.
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Gerry, the plant looks pretty good in the photo... is that the virused one?
You know, I am always keen to get rid of virused plants but I've been thinking about the fact that some plants seem to carry the virus without too much effect being seen to their health..... what about making a fine mexh cover for pots with "suspect" plants... very fine metal mesh, too small for aphids to pass through, fitted over pots to quarantine contents... one could still enjoy plant......anyone think this is a good idea? Not sure if I'll run this past Ian any time soon......he gets anxious about such things :-X
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Maggi - yes the photo is of the virused plant. Ironically, this is its best ever year as regards flowering - the flowers are a good 5cm in diameter. In earlier years the viral symptoms only showed in the leaves but this year they are apparent in the flowers too. I'm very fond of this plant - it is so vigorous & so attractive that my inclination is to keep it, segregated in a different part of the garden perhaps. Maybe this is foolish? I would imagine that any mesh small enough to exclude aphids would also exclude light. Regular insecticide sprays perhaps?
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Ashley - I don't really know but I doubt it. I have the impression that these hybrid forms are quite common in the wild.
Is this not because they are just natural variations of one species, which they were considered to be for many years before a 'splitter'got hold of them
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Tony - You may well be right, but on the basis of my, admittedly very limited, experience I incline to the view of the 'splitters'. From a horticultural point of view the plants I grow as S. sicula are quite distinct from those I grow as S. lutea. However, I've just recalled the situation with Bulbocodiums, so perhaps, botanically, I should join the 'lumpers'? Incidentally, the RBG Kew checklist regards 'sicula' as a subspecies of S. lutea.
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I think the problem with plants in cultivation is that people tend to dig up the better looking ones or ones with obvious differences to the norm.I cynically do not believe that wonderful plants in cultivation miraculously appear spontaneously from a random pinch of seed from the wild. This was always still on a special form of the plant from the previous year having survived the ravages of winter.
There is a huge clump of sternbergia growing in the dirt outside the cemetery gates in Milas, Turkey.I am going in four weeks and if in flower will take some pictures and make some very amateur observations.
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Tony - I think you are probably correct. However, I think it's useful (if nothing else) to make distinctions for horticultural purposes even where there are no distinctions of botanical/taxonomic significance.
I look forward to seeing your pics from Milas - let's hope they are in flower.
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Has anyone noticed a green stripe running down the petals of their Sternbergia sicula. I took 3 photos of this occurence, but the lighting was not good so they are not as sharp as I would have liked. With flash the stripe disappeared.
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Art - I've just checked the one remaining flower on S. sicula & it has a faint green stripe. If memory serves it was more prominent on a second form, now finished. I think it's normal.
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Hi,
Just now I write on this post, because I would like to see my plants to bloom, to can show them here.
I like very much these plants, but have no experience with them. All I know is from the bulbs I have, they start grow the leaves in autumn, but from to year to now, no signs of flowers. Sometimes I wonder if they are realy Sternbergia or another plant ::) The leaves are just like the S. lutea, but don's know more.
By now it should already be the time to flower here, wright? :'(
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If it is any consolation Cris my Sternbergia lutea hasn't flowered yet either. :(
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Cris & David - Sternbergias need to be well-fed & to be kept hot & dry during the summer in order to flower well - probably hotter & drier than you think is good for them. In my garden S. lutea is later than other species.
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Gerry my plant spent the Summer underneath the greenhouse staging where it was dry but I don't think any part of the Summer ranked as hot! Maybe next year I shall try and sneak it into the airing cupboard.
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David - During the Summer I keep potted Sternbergias in full sun, plunged in sand in a S. facing lean-to frame. No water at all. When I first tried this (in despair) I thought it would be certain death but they love it & flower like mad.
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I agree with Gerry when he says that Sternbergia require hot dry conditions in the summer - and yes, hotter than you might think sensible. Unlike Cyclamen graecum, where we were told to bake them to get good flowering - only to find they do need damp at the roots that should continue to grow - Sternbergias can be baked as the roots do not continue to grow.
Every one of my pots has flowered. :)
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Not sure what happened here - possibly I bought some bulbs at a plant sale that were incorrectly labelled.
Certainly not Sternbergia, and it will be interesting to see if they are peshmenii or reginae-olgae. I think it was a bargain even though not what I thought I had bought. :) ;) :)
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Well Art, at least you got something worth having. A few weeks ago I bought a packet of Sternbergia lutea in a garden centre with the intention of trying them in the open garden. The leaves have just emerged & they are obviously & thoroughly virused. Beware garden centre Sternbergias!
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Today Sternbergia lutea pleased me during 1hour of sunshine.
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Wonderful Armin !! And growing outside too !! Beautiful !
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Armin - really nice Sternbergias - and you take much better photographs of them than I can manage.
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Thanks Gerry and Luc,
I started last year to replace my old loamy soil with a sand/compost mix.
When I lifted some weeks ago some of the bulb baskets in order to label them I recognized a much better growths rate compared to previous loamy situation. It seems the efforts paying off!
I Keep my fingers crossed.
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Gerry,
A lot of treatments while dormant can create symptoms the first year that look like virus, but I don't know whether this is the case with Sternbergia. I know that heat treatment of daffodil bulbs often gives distorted growth the first year, which is fine the following year once the plant has settled. Given that you plants are so obviously ill, I'm wondering whether their treatment by the bulb companies may be the reason, rather than virus? The first season is always a difficult one to be sure IS virus. I am very aware of virus, and have destroyed plants where the symptoms have persisted, but sometimes the anomolies of the first year are never repeated.
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Thanks for the info Paul. I think I'll keep them segregated for a year & see what happens.
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Now today we have a sunny day and it is possibly to make pics.
Here is first St. lutea - plant in year 1998 - since this time is grows well ( without any protection free in my border ) -never any sign of virus .....
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Hans
A very nice healthy clump. :) ;D :)
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I second Art, Hans, beautiful group ! Do they flower so profusely each year, even after a lousy Summer like this year's ??
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Here is a
St. lutea
it is from a wild source
that is a interesting plant for me because my other clump of S.lutea has never produced andy fruits in 10 year .....
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Hans
Have you tried to use pollen from the wild lutea to pollinate your clump?
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I second Art, Hans, beautiful group ! Do they flower so profusely each year, even after a lousy Summer like this year's ??
Luc ,we had not such a bad summer ...here it was OK ...the only we had not temperatues over 35° C , but we must not have this ....
please - we live near the warmest city from Germany ( 40 km ) ....and here growing Bananas 8)
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Art :
I will not mix this two S.lutea .....I hope I can make later pollinate this plants from the wild ....
;D I will not produce more hybrids .....
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That one bulb produces a few flowers i knew, but i was surprised to find the first lutea for this year in the garden - two buds on one stem. cannot remember to have seen this before... may be I did not pay enough attention before?
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Art :
I will not mix this two S.lutea .....I hope I can make later pollinate this plants from the wild ....
;D I will not produce more hybrids .....
Hans
I think you are right - the 'sterile' one seems to clump up well, so no need to produce seed. 8)
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Sternbergia identity -
I recently posted (Sept 14th, post no 34) a pic of a plant, given to me by the late Erna & Ronald Frank, which I identified as S. greuteriana. I now think this plant is more likely to be the much rarer S. pulchella from Syria. Those interested might care to look at an account by Erna of a trip to Syria with Manfred Koenen in which they found S. pulchella (in AGS Bulletin vol 64 no 4, Dec 1996). Brian Mathew provides an account of S. pulchella in 'The Garden' vol 118, pt 1 (Jan 1993) & my plant corresponds closely, though not exactly, to his description.
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Hi Gerry,
I can't find a picture in the source you mention (only text).
Can you kindly re-post a picture?
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Armin - the forum pages don't seem to be working properly for me so I can't check. If I don't find my pic tomorrow I'll post again.
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here comes help :
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1208.msg55438#msg55438
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Many thanks Hans ;)
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Hi all,
here is a
Sternbergia sicula
grown from seeds collect in Apulia
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Hans - thanks for your help.
This Italian form of S. sicula is very attractive.
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Sternbergia identity -
I recently posted (Sept 14th, post no 34) a pic of a plant, given to me by the late Erna & Ronald Frank, which I identified as S. greuteriana. I now think this plant is more likely to be the much rarer S. pulchella from Syria. Those interested might care to look at an account by Erna of a trip to Syria with Manfred Koenen in which they found S. pulchella (in AGS Bulletin vol 64 no 4, Dec 1996). Brian Mathew provides an account of S. pulchella in 'The Garden' vol 118, pt 1 (Jan 1993) & my plant corresponds closely, though not exactly, to his description.
Pasche and Kerndorf stated in ' Die Gattung Sternbergia ' (2002) for Sternbergia pulchella - Flower stalk during flowering invisible, when in fruit prolonging to 1,5 -2 cm
Your plant has a distinct flower stalk which does not exist neither in a photo shown in the account mentioned above nor in the pic of the AGS article. So maybe your plant is something different than S. pulchella.
Sternbergia is a very tricky genus. There are a lot of hybrids between Sternbergia lutea, sicula and greuteriana and a correct determination at least for the smaller forms of these, is very very difficult.
Gerd
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Gerd - thanks for your note. I agree that the identification of Sternbergias is a problem & I am by no means certain that my plant is S. pulchella; you may be right, it could be a hybrid. In most respects it conforms to Brian Mathew's description though the length of stem in my plant does concern me as does the relative length of the style. To my eyes the plant in Erna Frank's photo appears to have a short stem though it is difficult to determine from the angle of the photo how long it is. The photograph in 'The Garden' (by Brian Mathew) of a plant growing at Kew shows a definite stem, admittedly not as long as on my plants but my plants are growing in rather poor light. Another reason for thinking it might be S. pulchella is that it came from Erna Frank. Unfortunately I lost my original note of its identity(I was obsessed with frits at the time to the exclusion of everything else) but most of the more unusual Mediterranean plants grown by the Franks were from their own collections. It would certainly be very valuable to have an English translation of the Sternbergia text you mention
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Gerry,
After I posted my remarks concerning the stem I had the feeling that I was a little bit overhasty. If you have a look at some other species of Sternbergia the length could be a variable feature - why not with pulchella? A botanical diagnosis isn't always correct - especially when it was based on a single or few plants (or from 1882 in this case).
Here is an attempt of a translation of the Pasche & Kerndorf article (without personal liability) ;)
Description: Bulb 1-1.5 cm in diameter. Leaves 3-4(6), narrow linear, appearing with the flowers, canaliculate (channelled), keeled, arched downwards, bright green, , with narrow light central stripe, obtuse or slightly pointed, 7-11(15) cm long, 0,5-0,7 cm wide. Margins rough (scabrid?).
Flower stalk during flowering invisible, when in fruit prolonging to 1,5-2 cm. Flowers sessile, yellow; segments narrow linear, circa 1,5 cm long, about as long as the tube (POST 1896).
Filaments of different length. Spathe circa 0,5 cm, silvery with green margin, bifid at the apex. Fruit circa 1,5 cm long, circa 0,5 cm wide, pointed (pointy?). Seeds with elaiosom.
Whew - what a strain for an old brain - I hope this kind of exercise will prevent to develope Alzheimer's disease. ;D
Gerd
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Whew - what a strain for an old brain - I hope this kind of exercise will prevent to develope Alzheimer's disease.
I hope so too Gerd! It's what I hoped after translating the Latin description of crocus. Anyhow many thanks.This description is very similar to that published by Brian Mathew & based on living material. He describes the flower stem as "very short, subterranean" but his photo shows a plant with a short stem above ground!
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I have two forms of Sternbergia lutea. With long sheets comes from former Yugoslavia, the other one from Sicily.
Sternbergia lutea
Sternbergia sicula
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wolf whistle!
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Wonderful Franz. I wish I could grow Sternbergias outside like that.
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Fantastic to see Sternbergia sicula in your meadow, Franz - thanks for showing this pictures. See your Sternbergias have leafs when they flower - here normally Sternbergias bloom before they get leafs - like this double flowering, now open.
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Franz, you grow all these wonderful things like I grow weeds... ::)
They're beautiful !
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Franz, I am green of envy. Your Sternbergia meadow are outstanding!
Here in Denmark, Sternbergia needs a warm place near a wall to flower well in the open garden.
This year my Sternbergia flower very early (1-2 month earlier than normal), and surprisingly the ones in the open garden about 3 weeks before the ones under glass.
I think that is because we had a long hot and dry May followed by a rainy Juli. The bulbs must have thought that July was September.
I have seen the same effect on my Colchicum montana, Col. agrippum, Acis autumnalis, Galanthus rgo and Schizostylis coccenea but not on crocus. They flower at normal time.
1. St. sicula Dodona Gold
2. St. greuteriana
3. St. lutea
4. St. sicula graeca
5. Sternbergia wall
6. St. lutea virus?
7. St. lutea virus?
I think the last 2 has virus, but I am not sure. 5 years ago I had a large clump of lutea, which showed signs of virus (stripes on the leaves), but they performed very well with lots of flowers and increasing fast. As they performed so good, I moved them to other places in the garden(!!!), to observe them further. Now they still look healthy and flowers well, and the stripes has disappeared on some of them. So is it virus? Or is the stripes symptom of some lack of minerals?
Fortunately, all my other Sternbergia have no stripes.
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Poul - Very nice Sternbergias. I was interested in your experience of possibly virused plants. This year I obtained some new plants of S. lutea & when the leaves emerged about 2 weeks ago they looked quite obviously virused. Now they look a nice dark green & very healthy with no virus-like markings at all. Very odd.
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If it is any consolation Cris my Sternbergia lutea hasn't flowered yet either. :(
David, sorry for the late answer, thanks for you support ;) I would realy like to see them flower :'(
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Cris & David - Sternbergias need to be well-fed & to be kept hot & dry during the summer in order to flower well - probably hotter & drier than you think is good for them. In my garden S. lutea is later than other species.
Gerry, thanks, I'll follow your tips. I'll not forget "probably hotter & drier than you think is good for them" ;)
One question: how hard is cultivate this plant from seed? Sorry for my question of a starter, but I've never tried to sow these plants ::)
I must confess: is wonderfull to see all your plants, those of Franz, growing in the ground are amazing. Maybe ond day I can show you photos of mine too.
:)
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My latest sternbergia - believe sicula, but the flower is very large.
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Cris ,
Sternbergia are easy to sow -try it !
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Art - from the leaves & the flower shape looks like S. sicula to me.
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Thank you all together for the kind comments.
Hans, I have plants with and without leaves!
By the way, before 30 years it was not possible to cultivate sternbergia outside.
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Franz,
do you think of global warming or better hardy selections of Sternbergia available now when you state "30years ago it was not possible to grow Sternbergia outside?"
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By the way, before 30 years it was not possible to cultivate sternbergia outside.
Franz, my experience with Scilla peruviana here has been similar. I failed repeatedly with this plant back in the 1960s, but now I occasionally see it in local gardens.
I'm not taking a chance here: my plants are in a cold frame (and they are already producing leaves).
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Hello from Linz, Austria!
Here are some Sternbergias from my collection. They all grow near a south facing wall and get all the heat our summer throws on them. I feed them regularly and heavily, no additional watering. I think, it is difficult to feed Sternbergias enough in pots to grow them to their full potential here.
Sternbergia lutea from Garden Centres
Sternbergia sicula from Corfu (my best collection, although I have no plants of Dodonea Gold or Arcadian Sun)
Sternbergia from Crete (I am not very sure about this, I think too big flowers for greuteriana; Sternbergias from Crete are very confusing)
Sternbergia clusiana from Turkey
All the best from Linz
Herbert
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They look great Herbert !!!
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Herbert - very nice. What a triumph to flower S.clusiana outside!
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Welcome, Herbert! Your form from Korfu is delightful.... and growing beside a cactus, I see! :o ;D Amazing!
Seeing your plants and Franz H's meadow, I am considering a move to Austria very soon! :-\ ;)
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I'm confused. Here are two of mine - the first labelled greuteriana PC, the other labelled sicula #2 IY. ???
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I'm confused. Here are two of mine - the first labelled greuteriana PC, the other labelled sicula #2 IY. ???
Anthony - apropos "greuteriana/PC": could the PC be Paul Christian? If so it's probably the Manfred Koenen form from Karpathos which PC has been distributing for some time. As for the other, who knows - Ian Young?
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Thanks Gerry, you are spot on with the initials. It's the size and shape of the flowers that's confusing me.
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Thanks Gerry, you are spot on with the initials. It's the size and shape of the flowers that's confusing me.
Anthony - Sternbergias confuse everyone, especially me.
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Armin,
It is actually warmer -- it is the same Sternbergia.
In addition, there are disadvantages too. I cannot cultivate some alpine plants!
Anthony,
I think your two pictures show Sternbergia sicula.
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I was interested in your experience of possibly virused plants. This year I obtained some new plants of S. lutea & when the leaves emerged about 2 weeks ago they looked quite obviously virused. Now they look a nice dark green & very healthy with no virus-like markings at all. Very odd.
Gerry, I think there could be two explanations:
1. The plants are virused, but the visibility of the virus markings change accordingly to how well the plants are feed. (Or to the age of the leaves.)
2. The plants are not virused, but due to bad weather conditions or some misfeeding (maybe lack of lime) the leaves show virus like markings. Has anyone seen that? Or what is the sign of misfeeding on Sternbergias?
As I mentioned I have planted the suspicious Sterbergia on different locations far away from my healthy ones (even some at my summer residence), to find out if they really were virus infected or if the markings was related to the soil. Now I have looked close at them all, and I must admit that all of them still have virus markings to various degrees. Where the soil is rich in lime, the markings are almost invisible (the last two pictures in my previous post). In some years the markings are more pronounced than in other years.
My conclusion is that they have virus and that I have to discard all the suspicious ones. :(
By the way does anyone know if virus distribute via the soil or is it only from aphids?
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I agree with your observations about virus symtoms being 'masked' by good growing conditions. I have observed the same in my bulb collection.
I have not heard that virus can be transmitted through the soil (BAD news if it can) but of course we can pass it through handling infected bulbs and there has been discussion on the forum about transfer by pollinators.
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Herbert,
Outstanding Sternbergias you have! . Does Clusiana flower every year?
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Pehe,
Herbert,
Outstanding Sternbergias you have! . Does Clusiana flower every year?
No problem for flowers with clusiana, but it multiplies very slowly for me. And I had to start with one bulb from an exchange - so no seeds until now!
All the best from Linz
Herbert
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Armin,
It is actually warmer -- it is the same Sternbergia.
In addition, there are disadvantages too. I cannot cultivate some alpine plants!
Franz,
thanks for your feedback. Indeed global warming has pro and cons :-\
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I think there could be two explanations:
1. The plants are virused, but the visibility of the virus markings change accordingly to how well the plants are feed. (Or to the age of the leaves.)
2. The plants are not virused, but due to bad weather conditions or some misfeeding (maybe lack of lime) the leaves show virus like markings. Has anyone seen that? Or what is the sign of misfeeding on Sternbergias?
Poul - I think you may be right regarding the age of the leaves. I just found a piece on the internet which states that this can be the case with bulbous irises. I'm not sure about lime - all my Sternbergias are grown in a compost which contains 40% limestone chips. They are regularly fed with a high potash fertiser.
I have one Sternbergia which is certainly virused - both the leaves &, to some extent, the flowers are marked. Nevertheless it remains very vigorous & free flowering.
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Anthony,
I think your two pictures show Sternbergia sicula.
Hans, here is the PC plant in 2006.
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Hi all ,
here are new pics from today
St. spec. Youchtas ( central Crete )
St. spec. Plakia ( southern Crete )
both plants I have received from nice friends ;)
I think that both is St. sicula...
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Very nice Hans, I particularly like the one from Mt Youchtas.
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I have not heard that virus can be transmitted through the soil (BAD news if it can)
Tony - I am not an expert in this field, but my understanding, in relation to snowdrop viruses, is that they can be spread in basically 3 ways viz
- through handling infected bulbs
- transmission by aphids
- transmission by nematodes in the soil
If this is the case for snowdrop (see section on Viral Disease in the 'Snowdrops' book by Bishop et al) then I would have thought there was every likelihood that it would apply equally to other plants & this seems to be borne out in the AGS publication 'Pests and Diseases of Alpine Plants' by Ellis, Entwistle & Walkey (see section on Viral Diseases - Transmission by Eelworms (Nematodes)).
For snowdrops affected by virus, which are planted in the garden, the advice is to remove the plant (avoiding hand contact by placing a plastic bag, or similar, over the plant), remove the immediately surrounding soil & safely dispose of both - timing is key here & if at all possible this should be done before the soil starts to warm up, because this is when the nematodes become active. Oh, and don't forget to wash hands & clean the garden tools afterwards!
Sorry to harp on about snowdrops, in the Sternbergia thread ::)
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Sorry to harp on about snowdrops, in the Sternbergia thread
No apology needed, Chris... the question of virus spread and control is of interest to us all regarding our plants, is it not? :)
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My sternbergia are just starting to flower. Sicula today
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Hans & Tony thanks for showing this nice sicula (? ;o)) forms.
Here my first Sternbergia-Autumn-Clone is in flower, I received it as Sternbergia lutea but I am not very sure about it, as it is something intermediate between other St.luteas with broad leafs and narrow leafs of that ones I got as St. angustifolia - surprisingly all the others did not appear yet.
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This is Sternbergia greuteriana MK 0187 from Paul Christian, a Manfred Koenen (Botanical Garden of Bonn) collection from Karpathos.
The third picture shows a small S. lutea, perhaps with some influence of S. greuteriana or vice-versa.
All pics from today in Erich Pasche's greenhouse.
Gerd
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Thanks for the pics Gerd. I now think that my plant, initially identified as S. greuteriana, but, for a time, thought to be S. pulchella, is, after all, S. greuteriana. These small Sternbergias (& maybe the big ones too) were put on earth to torment us.
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These small Sternbergias (& maybe the big ones too) were put on earth to torment us.
Yes, they are a muddle - but a pretty one. Thanks god we are no taxonomists!
Gerd
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Gerd,
many thanks for showing us pictures of Sternbergia greuteriana of the collection of Mr. Pasche, one of the Gurus of the genus.
I grow two collections of greuterianas, but after seeing these pictures I am no longer sure about their correct identification.
The first is from Janis Ruksans without any data on their origin, the second is from Karpatos.
In his Monograph of the genus from 2002 , Pasche used the length of the filaments for distinguishing between sicula and greuteriana: 10 - 17 mm for sicula and 15-32 mm for greuteriana.
I am also not sure, if this key is right when using it on the big flowered siculas from north-west Greece; but on the other hand, these are easy to identify.
All the best from Linz
Herbert
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Herbert,
There are a lot of plants from Crete or the adjacent islands to the east which are
in between greuteriana and sicula/lutea. So you can have all transitions between them.
According Erich Pasche a typical greuteriana has small and narrow perianth segments with a rounded tip and long filaments.
Gerd
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I was questioned at the SRGC Weekend about Sternbergia identification: I could only say that most were yellow, some were large and some were small, flowering with, or without leaves, which may, or may not, have a white central stripe..... :-[..... my questioner was less than happy with my answer, but it was the best I could do! :P :-X :-\ :'(
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I was questioned at the SRGC Weekend about Sternbergia identification: I could only say that most were yellow, some were large and some were small, flowering with, or without leaves, which may, or may not, have a white central stripe..... :-[.....
8)
Like those little white jobs d'you mean? ;) ;D ;D
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I hadn't actually thought of it in those terms, Ashley.... but now you mention it..... :-[ :-X ;)
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Here is the key to Sternbergia from the CITESBulbChecklist (1999). While it will not settle every questionable identity, it might help. Call the rest hybrids (if you are a splitter) or intermediates (if you are a lumper).
[attach=1]
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Gerry, I have amended your post to show the key full size... I have also printed it off!
Cheers,
Maggi
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Sternbergia pics from me again ( we have sun ) :
Sternbergia greuteriana Alan Edwards form
Sternbergia lutea ( from the Kyklades )
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Hi Hans,
It seems both are the 'real ones' - especially the flat leaves of Sternbergia lutea without a central glaucous stripe correspond the key from Kamari and Artelari!
Fine plants indeed!
Gerd
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Yes- Gerd ;D
I believe too that this both are correct named .
Know maybe anybody from where this Alan Edwards form is collect ?
Hans 8)
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Sternbergia greuteriana Alan Edwards form
Hans - have you compared this plant with the unidentified plant from Alan Edwards which Art posted on Sept 03 (reply 30)?
What do you think?
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Gerry ,
I had also this idea ...but I think my plants are different !
If you look the petals of the plant from Art are broader ...and his plant has longer flowerstalks and more flowers per stem ....and also my plants are much later .....
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Hi all ,
here is again a pic from this
Sternbergia greuteriana Alan Edwards form - now with measure ....the leaves and petals are really narrow !
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Gerry, I have amended your post to show the key full size... I have also printed it off!
Cheers,
Maggi
Maggi
How did you print it?
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Maggi
How did you print it?
Heavens, Arthur, that was three days ago... can't remember now! :-[
Let me think, it'll come to me.......... :-\
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How to print off the Sternbergia key........ I may have right-clicked on the text and selected "print picture"...... that certainly works ::)
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Gerry ,
I had also this idea ...but I think my plants are different !
If you look the petals of the plant from Art are broader ...and his plant has longer flowerstalks and more flowers per stem ....and also my plants are much later .....
I agree Hans, they do seem to be different.
I think Alan Edwards collected in both Greece & Crete.
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How to print off the Sternbergia key........ I may have right-clicked on the text and selected "print picture"...... that certainly works ::)
Maggi, I thought it being useful to copy the doc. in Word, which is easier to pick lines out or print.
Here it is and if not appropriate you may delete this posting.
Annex II: Identification keys - Sternbergia
KEY TO SPECIES OF STERNBERGIA
1. Flowers produced in spring 2
1. Flowers produced in autumn 3
2. Flowers white S. candida
2. Flowers yellow S. fischeriana
3. Perianth tube usually 2–6.5 cm long; leaves absent at flowering time 4
3. Perianth tube 2 cm or less long; leaves appearing at or before flowering time 5
4. Perianth segments 3.5–7.5 cm long; leaves 8–16 mm wide, greygreen S. clusiana
4. Perianth segments 3 cm or less long; leaves 1–4 mm wide, dark green S. colchiciflora
5. Leaves bright, shiny green, flat in cross section 6
5. Leaves deep green with a greyish median stripe, channelled in cross-section 7
6. Leaves 7–12 mm wide; perianth segments 3–3.5 cm long S. lutea
6. Leaves 2–5 mm wide; perianth segments 2–3 cm long S. greuteriana
7. Perianth tube 0.4–1 cm long S. sicula
7. Perianth tube 1.5–2 cm long 8
8. Perianth segments 3.5–4 cm long S. schubertii
8. Perianth segments 1.5–1.8 cm long S. pulchella
Explanation of terms used in keys;
abaxial the side or face positioned away from the axis; dorsal or lower surface
acuminate having a gradually diminishing point
acute sharp, ending in a point
adaxial the side or face next to the axis; ventral or upper surface
apex the tip or point
apiculum a sharp and short, but not stiff point
apiculate furnished with an apiculum
applanate (vernation) with both leaves flat together in bud; the adaxial surfaces facing
each other in bud
aristate with a hair-like appendage
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How to print off the Sternbergia key........ I may have right-clicked on the text and selected "print picture"...... that certainly works ::)
If you use a Mac you can click on it & drag it to the desktop (or elsewhere) as you would with a picture. Then deal with it as you wish.
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How to print off the Sternbergia key........ I may have right-clicked on the text and selected "print picture"...... that certainly works ::)
If you use a Mac you can click on it & drag it to the desktop (or elsewhere) as you would with a picture. Then deal with it as you wish.
Thanks for that Gerry. It's a function I keep forgetting about.
johnw
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Sternbegia clusiana is in flower now in many localities across Israel,
usually on dry Eastern facing slops.
I took a picture this week of this particularly nice plant; big Tulip sized flower with green tips.
I grow mainly S. clusiana leaves, they are really 'spoilt' and generally just refuse to flower in any size pot.
It is easy to notice the nectar glands at the inner tip of the petals, ants are really attracted by it to than slip inside the flower and climb the anthers...very clever technique.
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Oron - that S.clusiana is very handsome. Thanks for showing it. I've had a bulb for 10 years & never seen a flower even though it is planted out under cover. Last year there were not even leaves though the bulb is still alive. It's interesting that, even in Israel, it can be difficult to flower.
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Hi Oron
Gorgeous plant ! I have received yesterday S.clusiana seeds from Israel and sow them to day. I hope they germinate this spring. Marvellous species. Hans, thank you for all you show and say. here my S. greuteriana
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Thanks Gerry and Dominique.
Dominique, clusiana germinate easily and grow relatively fast, in my experience it is better to plant it out in the garden in its 3ed season, in the hottest spot. they are quite hardy, some colonies get snow here.
They flower really nice if they are undisturbed in the garden.
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Hello Dominique,
I think your greuteriana is the real thing !
Very fine plant indeed!
All the best from Linz
Pauli
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My Sternbergia has flowered very well this year.
St. greuteriana MK.0187 from Karpathos has about 25 flowers.
This is placed at a sunny wall.
St. lutea flower even in light shadow in my kitchen garden
St. lutea between beans and leeks
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Hi Poul ,
Sorry to say but I dont believe this is a St. greuteriana - from where they came ?
For me looks it more like a St. sicula ....could you maybe mesure the wide of the leaves ?
Best wishes
Hans
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Oron, Dominique and Poul - very nice plants :))
This Sternbergia sicula flowers well - others still are below soil...
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Hans,
Great photo of a very healthy, shiny looking plant.
Congratulations!! ::)
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A very very well grown specimen Hans !!! :o
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Hi Poul ,
Sorry to say but I dont believe this is a St. greuteriana - from where they came ?
For me looks it more like a St. sicula ....could you maybe mesure the wide of the leaves ?
Best wishes
Hans
Poul - Sorry, but I'm inclined to agree with Hans. It doesn't look like S. greuteriana to me either.
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Poul, in the veg patch is that a solar heater for the Sternbergias?
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Hi Poul ,
Sorry to say but I dont believe this is a St. greuteriana - from where they came ?
For me looks it more like a St. sicula ....could you maybe mesure the wide of the leaves ?
Best wishes
Hans
Hans, It is from Paul Christian. He claims it is from Karpathos acquired from Bonn Botanical Garden.
I admit it looks like a sicula, but it makes offsets on stolons so I am pretty sure that it is greuteriana. I have not heard of any sicula doing that.
The width of the leaves is about 4 mm.
Poul
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Poul, in the veg patch is that a solar heater for the Sternbergias?
Mark,
You are right, I put some stones behind the Sternbergia to get a warmer micro climate.
I do not serious mean to grow Sternbergia in my kitchen garden, but these had increased very well in my rock garden (in fact too much, as my rock garden is pretty small). I therefore put them temporary on a free space in the kitchen garden until I found a better place. But time flies and now they have been there for 3 years and they are doing quite well.
Poul
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[quote author=pehe link=topic=1208.msg59409#msg59409 date=1224658593
Hans, It is from Paul Christian. He claims it is from Karpathos acquired from Bonn Botanical Garden.
I admit it looks like a sicula, but it makes offsets on stolons so I am pretty sure that it is greuteriana. I have not heard of any sicula doing that.
The width of the leaves is about 4 mm.
Poul [/quote]
Poul - The presence of stolons seems consistent with Christian's description of the MK form of S.greuteriana but Christian also states that this form has small flowers which resemble S. lutea whereas the flowers on your plants look quite large & resemble S. sicula. All very odd.
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:-\
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[quote author=pehe link=topic=1208.msg59409#msg59409 date=1224658593
Hans, It is from Paul Christian. He claims it is from Karpathos acquired from Bonn Botanical Garden.
I admit it looks like a sicula, but it makes offsets on stolons so I am pretty sure that it is greuteriana. I have not heard of any sicula doing that.
The width of the leaves is about 4 mm.
Poul
Poul - The presence of stolons seems consistent with Christian's description of the MK form of S.greuteriana but Christian also states that this form has small flowers which resemble S. lutea whereas the flowers on your plants look quite large & resemble S. sicula. All very odd.
[/quote]
Gerry,
The flowers are quite small. Here is a size rank of flowers in my garden (decreasing size):
1. S. sicula Dodona Gold
2. S. lutea
2. S. sicula graeca
4. S. greuteriana
On the first picture you see closest to the camera sicula Dodona Gold, greuteriana(the same plant as above, but a month earlier) and lutea.
It is not easy too compare sizes, but the flowers of greuteriana are clearly smaller than lutea flowers.
The other photos are the same greuteriana at different times
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Oron, Dominique and Poul - very nice plants :))
This Sternbergia sicula flowers well - others still are below soil...
Hans,
Very nice sicula. Does it flower so rich every year?
In Denmark it is only in good years, the flowering is rich, but never as good as this.
Please send some Spanish sunshine and warmth to me! ;D
Poul
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Poul - many thanks for the extra pictures. Yes, the S.greuteriana is small compared to the Dodona plant. In these pics the size difference is comparable to that of my own plants.
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Very nice sicula. Does it flower so rich every year?
Yes it does - I received this clone from a good friend in germany some years ago - he was also surprised to see how floriferous it is here in the south.
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Poul,
This seems to be a never ending discussion. I am far from beeing an expert, especially concerning this tricky genus but it seems there is no Sternbergia lutea and also no S. greuteriana.
According the key from Kamari & Artelari S. lutea has bright glossy green leaves without a central stripe. Furthermore lutea and greuteriana both have perianth segments which are rounded at the tip while sicula has acute ones.
In my opinion the best way to identify a greuteriana is to measure the perianth segments which are (1.2)1.5 - 3 cm long and 0.2 - 0.8 cm wide.
Nevertheless I admit freely that I am growing a Sternbergia lutea for more than 10 years which is in fact sicula (never took a closer look until recently). Also I got a greuteriana whose perianth segments are only 2 mm too wide for matching the description. All species mentioned above are able to produce hybrids which eachother.
Gerd
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I noticed that the leaves of the plants I have labelled sicula have a sharp central ridge underneath whereas those labelled greuteriana are smooth or almost flat underneath?
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Anthony - your plants seem to have read the key on p11. Unlike many Sternbergias.
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Hans, It is from Paul Christian. He claims it is from Karpathos acquired from Bonn Botanical Garden.
I admit it looks like a sicula, but it makes offsets on stolons so I am pretty sure that it is greuteriana. I have not heard of any sicula doing that.
The width of the leaves is about 4 mm.
Poul
Hi Poul at all ,
Thank you for your informations to your plant .
I have supposed that your plants comes from P.Christian - I think this is one of the often commercial sources for this plants .
A bit strange for me is the number ( MK 0187 ) - as reference from B.G. Bonn is given : Koenen 21823
The plants of the firstdescription ( Kamari ) comes not from Karpathos - they are collect from eatern part of Crete .
I have never seen a stoloniferus Sternbergia -so maybe you can send us a pic of this plants if you ever repot / replant .
It is not a must that St. greuteriana is stoloniferus - it is only written :
" bulbs up tp 2,5 cm in diameter ,sometimes with stolones or bulbils ......"
on the pic of herbarmaterial is shown a normal bulb !
To plantmaterial from Karpathos :
My idea was earlier too that all material of Sternbergia what came from Karpathos must be St. greuteriana - this is definitiv wrong !
I have visit Karpathos in fall ( last year ) and I found two mountains with Sternbergia ( please look for my report ) - this plants are St. lutea or hybrids with between St. lutea and St. greuteriana or St. sicula.
I agree with Gerd that St. greuteriana must have rounded at the tips of perianths - your plant shows acute tips like St. sicula .
Before some weeks has a friend from this forum shown also a St .geuteriana ex PC and some doubts rise up in me .....
I suppose the other ( for me true ) forms of St. greuteriana comes from Crete and they are distributet more seldom so that we have now this confusing situation.
This is my private opinion after all facts which I know - a finaly judgement which plant is what is only possibly with research of the DNA .
Anyway : thats all really interesting and nice plants
Hans
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I have never seen a stoloniferus Sternbergia -so maybe you can send us a pic of this plants if you ever repot / replant .
Hans
This plant is stoloniferus, but unfortunately I can't show it to you.
The bulb was planted in sept. 2003. Soon after a nice roset of leaves appeared, but no flowers. In November some new Small leaves appeared about 6 cm from the original plant. That was the first sign of the stoloniferus nature. I was excited as I have never seen such a behavior before. In 2004, I moved the plant to the present place at the wall, and then I saw two small bulbs on stolons. Unfortunately I didn't take any pictures. As it is planted directly in the soil, and it performs so well with lots of flowers, I will not replant it in the near future. But when I do, I take some pictures, I promice.
Poul
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Hi Poul ,
really intersting !
...and now we wait ....
With best wishes
Hans
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What I really like by Sternbergia is their ability to withstand bad weather.
The last two weeks have been very windy with lots of rain and even some freezing nights. But the Sternbergia flowers are very rugged and they still look great.
These lutea have just started flowering. They are offsets planted 2 years ago and grows 1 m from the wall where the motherplant have been flowering for two months! (second picture) That shows the benefit of a warm wall when growing Sternbergia in cold areas.
Poul
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Most of my Sternbergias have flowered early and many flowers have been pollinated.
Even in the garden many Sternbergia set seeds.
Two years ago I got seeds from lutea, greuteriana and sicula Dodona Gold too, with the result that I now have seedlings of them all.
Poul
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To add to the discussion, here are a couple of scans I took on Lesvos in late October 1995
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Hi Tom ,
Thank you for the nice pics from Lesbos .
Mhhh - I'm not shure if this is a S. lutea .....I see a stripe on the leaves ....
Anyway a nice pic of a interesting plant
Greetings
Hans
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Hans
I was using Collins Mediterranean flowers as my field guide. There were only two possibilities listed - lutea and sicula. These plants were strong and not delicate, which made me think they were lutea. However, I had never seen a Sternbergia before so I could be wrong. The stripe you see may be light reflections on the leaves.
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Hello Tom ,
thank you for your answer .
I'm far away to say for shure this is sicula or lutea or a hybrid ....Sternbergia are so confusing .
In the Sternbergia 2008 topic are pics from Arthur ( page 3 ) ....they looks for me similar to your plant .
It is really interesting that such plants grows also on Lesbos ....and not only one Crete !
Not only the stripe ( maybe a reflection ) is it why I have doubt - it is also the form of the leaves ....
Best wishes
Hans
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Hello Tom ,
thank you for your answer .
I'm far away to say for shure this is sicula or lutea or a hybrid ....Sternbergia are so confusing .
In the Sternbergia 2008 topic are pics from Arthur ( page 3 ) ....they looks for me similar to your plant .
It is really interesting that such plants grows also on Lesbos ....and not only one Crete !
Not only the stripe ( maybe a reflection ) is it why I have doubt - it is also the form of the leaves ....
Hans - I too think I can see a stripe on one leaf. I also agree that these plants look rather like those posted by Arthur. However, doesn't the most recent publication argue (convincingly) that sicula, lutea & greuteriana are all lutea?
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For what it is worth, we found Sternbergia in two locations. Near Agiassos next to a small chapel and many clumps on the road between Akrotiri Agios Fokas to Polichnitos. I have to correct the date, it was 12 October 1996.
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Well, I found Sternbergias in flower somewhere quite unexpected while on holidays last month.
[attachthumb=1]
[attachthumb=2]
I'll offer a prize to whoever can guess where (nearest town or landmark) the pics were taken. ;D
cheers
fermi
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Panaji, Goa?
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Panaji, Goa?
Probably a bit too hot and humid - no, we didn't see them there; though we did see Eucharis amazonica.
cheers
fermi
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Botanic Gardens, Singapore?
No real idea which way you would have travelled, Fermi?
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Did you photograph a Zephyranthes species in Goa/India ???
Gerd
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Well, I found Sternbergias in flower somewhere quite unexpected while on holidays last month.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I'll offer a prize to whoever can guess where (nearest town or landmark) the pics were taken. ;D
cheers
fermi
Gras (France)?
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Sternbergia colchiciflora is in flower now in many parts of north Israel.
Some photos taken last week.
I have been growing this species for the last 7 years, they flower beautifully every year.....under the surface level!!! >:( and so i get only seedpods regularly but can never enjoy visible flowers.
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Hi Oron ,
great pics !!!
My plants of S. colchiciflora have not flowered in this year :'(
they are repotted ...so I hope for next year .
Best wishes
Hans
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Hi Hans,
Don't give up... you might get seeds yet, which is not bad too...
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Sternbergia colchiciflora is in flower now in many parts of north Israel.
Some photos taken last week.
I have been growing this species for the last 7 years, they flower beautifully every year.....under the soil level!!! >:( and so i get only seedpods regularly but can never enjoy visible flowers.
Oron, interesting variation with this species.
What's the difference concerning the growing conditions between your cultivated
plants and those which occure in the wild? Do you have a guess for the lack of
visible flowers with your plants?
Gerd
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Gerd,
Probably the lack of optimal conditions is the cause for this phenomenon.
in the first years I taught i missed the flowers while i was away but than i read somewhere about it...
This phenomenon occurs also in the wild, and was described allready in the 1930's by a Russian botanist.
I find some of the sternbergias to be really spoilt ans some species just refuse to set flowers if they grow in a pot.
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For several years I have had Sternbergia colchiciflora in the alpine house in a pot. It produces seeds with no visible flowers every year. Last year I put one plant outside in a trough and it flowered. This summer the bulb must have rotted due to the damp. :'(
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Thank you, Oron.
The same ugly behaviour as a lot of violets have, they build seed without
an open flower. Not bad for the plant, only for us.
Is Sternbergia pulchella occuring in Israel? It is recorded from Lebanon
and Syria.
Gerd
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Is Sternbergia pulchella occuring in Israel? It is recorded from Lebanon
and Syria.
Gerd
Gerd,
S. pulchella does not grow in Israel.
From the short descriptions available [never saw a photo of it] I suspect it to be a form of S. colchiciflora.
Unfortunately the only way for me to check plants in Syria and Lebanon at the moment, would be from the bottom side of the bulbs...[if you know what i mean...]
My dream is to get there one day and find out all the plants we assume to grow there and for sure there are many surprises to be still discover.
Hopfully soon....
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Oron ,
I'm a bit surprised that St. colchiciflora flowers so late in your area -here it is always one of the first ( September ).
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Hans,
It is quite late this year, usually it blooms here from Mid October to Mid November. [Never in September]
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S. pulchella does not grow in Israel.
From the short descriptions available [never saw a photo of it] I suspect it to be a form of S. colchiciflora.
Oron - there is an article by Brian Mathew (with photo) on S. pulchella in 'The Garden' (Jan 1993). Brian claims that it is related to S. colchiciflora but differs in having well-developed leaves at flowering time. He claims that there are also small morphological differences but the chromosome number is the same - 2n = 20. He proposes retaining it as a distinct species. Given the history of Sternbergia taxonomy, it seems to me an open question whether this distinction will survive further investigation.
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Thanks Gerry,
I will try to get a copy of the journal you have just mentioned.
As I said it sounded to me like a form of colchiciflora, leaves hysteranthous or synanthous in some other species gave the plant a Varietal status, I'm afraid there is too little information still on S. pulchella.
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Gerry,
Thanks to this marvelous forum I allready have a copy of the two articles,
I must agree with BM [as always...], it does look as a species by its own!!!!
The structure of the leaves is very different from those of S. colchiciflora.
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]
Gerd,
S. pulchella does not grow in Israel.
From the short descriptions available [never saw a photo of it] I suspect it to be a form of S. colchiciflora.
Unfortunately the only way for me to check plants in Syria and Lebanon at the moment, would be from the bottom side of the bulbs...[if you know what i mean...]
My dream is to get there one day and find out all the plants we assume to grow there and for sure there are many surprises to be still discover.
Hopfully soon....
Oron,
Isn't it sad that plantmaniacs cannot receive a special status? Why can't we go to all places we want to visit in search of those plants we are keen on?
I also would like to go to the Lebanon - especially for Viola libanotica - as well as Irak and Syria must be most interesting concerning violets.
We need a special status which indicates: This is a person which is totally harmless, not interested in borders, military areas or defence works.
But I guess this will remain a dream. Nevertheless let's have a dream.
Gerd
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Botanic Gardens, Singapore?
No real idea which way you would have travelled, Fermi?
Think historic India. ;D
cheers
fermi
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Sternbergia colchiciflora is in flower now in many parts of north Israel.
Some photos taken last week.
I have been growing this species for the last 7 years, they flower beautifully every year.....under the surface level!!! >:( and so i get only seedpods regularly but can never enjoy visible flowers.
Oron,
it's wonderful to see this species growing in the wild.
How many species of Sternbergia occur in your area?
cheers
fermi
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Botanic Gardens, Singapore?
No real idea which way you would have travelled, Fermi?
Think historic India. ;D
cheers
fermi
Historic India tends to Rajasthan or Jodhpur, but Eucharis one would more expect
in wetter areas like Bangladesh.
You made me curious Fermi, but I like these sort of puzzles! 8)
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it's wonderful to see this species growing in the wild.
How many species of Sternbergia occur in your area?
cheers
fermi
Fermi
We have two species: S. colchiciflora and S. clusiana.
In the area of Jerusalem there are a few colonies of S. lutea but these where probably introduced in the past by Greek monks.
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Oron,
the latest and definate {at the moment] work on the Sternbergia is :
Die Gattung Sternbergia WALDST.&KIT. , by Pasche E. &H. Kerndorf [2002]
with detailed descriptions and cultural notes , as well as coloured photos of all known species , including S. schubertii , a species described in 1840 , and lost , and rediscovered in 1998 in Antalya Prov. , Turkey.
According to this work S. pulchella is not a form of S . colchiciflora , but is nearer to S,schubertii , but larger flowered and more handsome.
In my eyes S. clusiana is the most beautyful species ,which only flowers here after a hot and dry summer.
Gerd , I too dream about visiting countries like Lebanon , Syria , Israel ,
Turkey , Iran , etc. to see all my beloved bulbous plants in their native habitats , but as I am getting a bit long in the tooth , it will remain a dream!
Otto.
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Nice little yellows :)
Fermi could it be Bangladesh as Luit is suggesting as it was part of India before " Historic India"? But why would You be there? I know the easiest route with plain is seldom a straight line. ::)
Take care Joakim
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Oron,
the latest and definate {at the moment] work on the Sternbergia is :
Die Gattung Sternbergia WALDST.&KIT. , by Pasche E. &H. Kerndorf [2002]
with detailed descriptions and cultural notes , as well as coloured photos of all known species , including S. schubertii , a species described in 1840 , and lost , and rediscovered in 1998 in Antalya Prov. , Turkey.
According to this work S. pulchella is not a form of S . colchiciflora , but is nearer to S,schubertii , but larger flowered and more handsome.
Otto.
Otto,
Thank you!!!
This is very interesting,
Never heard about the rediscover of S. schubertii, maybe this is the 'missing link' to understand S. pulchella...
Do you know if this work was translated to English?
By the way , I agree with you about S. clusiana...
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Oron - what a wonderful clump of S. clusiana. I hope one of these days to see flowers from my plants. Even leaves would be nice!
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I have a pot with no leaves to Gerry. Mind you, there's no bulbs in it either. ;D
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Thanks Gerry,
The secret is to grow them on an East facing slop in the ground and not in pots keeping them dry from
early April till December. [ conditions as shown in the photo]
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Seriously, though, I did have clusiana but that was in the days of planting everything in the garden. I will make a note to buy some more next autumn.
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I always read this thread with great interest whilst quietly dribbling. I can't even get S. lutea to flower.
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(added by M !)
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Oron,
a wonderful clump of Sternbergia clusiana!
Do you think there is a possibility to collect some seeds next spring ?
Here winter is around the corner, but I see buds on Sternbergia candida!
All the best
Herbert
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Oron - my plants of S. clusiana are not in pots but planted out in a south facing covered frame & dry all summer. Although the bulbs seem to be still alive they have never flowered & it's about 4 years since they produced leaves.
Herbert - my S. candida (planted out in the same frame) are also above ground - just.
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I always read this thread with great interest whilst quietly dribbling. I can't even get S. lutea to flower.
(Attachment Link)
(added by M !)
........... quietly dribbling!!
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I always read this thread with great interest whilst quietly dribbling. I can't even get S. lutea to flower.
David - try S. sicula 'Dodona Gold'. It is very easy to grow & doesn't require excessive baking to promote flowering.
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[/quote]
........... quietly dribbling!!
[/quote]
That's not quietly dribbling. That's slavering. What my dog does, faced with bunny.
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Historic India tends to Rajasthan or Jodhpur, but Eucharis one would more expect
in wetter areas like Bangladesh.
You made me curious Fermi, but I like these sort of puzzles! 8)
You're on the right track, Luit.
Think of the most beautiful building in the world :D
cheers
fermi
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Think of the most beautiful building in the world :D
Ah ... Rochdale Town Hall ... ;D
Unfortunately (and to my dismay) I know very little about the Taj Mahal and surroundings, Fermi ...
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I thought he meant the Dunedin Railway Station. ;D
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I always read this thread with great interest whilst quietly dribbling. I can't even get S. lutea to flower.
David - try S. sicula 'Dodona Gold'. It is very easy to grow & doesn't require excessive baking to promote flowering.
Gerry, thanks for the tip. I will try next year.
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most beautiful building in the world
I thought until now that would be the house where I live.
It's surrounded by AGR(A)icultural fields! ;D ;D :D 8)
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most beautiful building in the world
I thought until now that would be the house where I live.
It's surrounded by AGR(A)icultural fields! ;D ;D :D 8)
Luit, I had no idea your house was made of white marble! ::) ;)
But what we still do not know is this...... how did the sternbergia get anywhere near the Taj Mahal! ???
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Maggi, I did not say it's made of white marble! just that it's the most beautiful building :D ;D :-*
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But what we still do not know is this...... how did the sternbergia get anywhere near the Taj Mahal! ???
If you believe the guides it's because the soil for the gardens was brought there from Kashmir. Which leads you to ask how did sternbergias get to Kashmir!
cheers
fermi
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But what we still do not know is this...... how did the sternbergia get anywhere near the Taj Mahal! ???
If you believe the guides it's because the soil for the gardens was brought there from Kashmir. Which leads you to ask how did sternbergias get to Kashmir!
cheers
fermi
From Paul Christian's (Rare Plants) website on S. fischeriana: "Most of the stock in cultivation stems from introductions made from Kashmir where it is planted in cemeteries. It is probably not wild there, but is planted in Moslem cemeteries and is also an escape from these. The wild range is said to run from Turkey to China but makes no allowances for this".
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This forum is SUCH a mine of information ... forget Google, just type SRGC!
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Hi ,
sorry to say - but I agree with Gerd that this plant from India is a Zephyranthes ::)
thats never a St. fischeriana ( please look for the first pics from this topic )
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... and it should not be in flower till spring ;)
Here winter is around the corner, but I see buds on Sternbergia candida!
This is really early :o - I should check mine - but I doubt to see much...
and Oron - it should be forbidden to you to post this type of pictures, think a bit in our health... ;) 8)
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Hans - I wasn't suggesting that Fermi's plant is S. fischeriana but merely drawing attention to the fact that Sternbergias are associated with Moslem cemeteries &, therefore, that an origin in Kashmir is not implausible. However, I bow to your superior knowledge of Amaryllids & your identification of it as Zephyranthes.
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Good point, chaps, the plant may well be a Zephyranthes.... BUT, whether it IS or not, and the info about Sternbergia in Kashmiri cemeteries is fascinating....... NOW we have the question, how did the Zephyranthes get to Kashmir ::) ::) :D
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Gerry ,thats a missunderstanding .
In India is in this time spring/summer -so it cannot be a normal autumn flowering Sternbergia ....the only yellow in spring is S. fischeriana ....
Shure I know also this informations with Sternbergias in Kashmir -why not ?
they grows from Azerbaijan, Iran, maybe Irak ....
In Orient is it usual that this plants ( Sternbergia ) are on cementeries ..., but I have it aso seen in France !
In India ,Thailand and other coutries are often Zephyranthes -look in Ebay and there are a lot of sellers which sells Zephyranthes ( also yellow )
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Oron,
your photo of the prolific flowering clump of S. clusiana is the most stunning I have seen !
As far as I know 'Die Gattung Sternbergia' has not been translated into english,
Otto.
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and Oron - it should be forbidden to you to post this type of pictures, think a bit in our health... ;) 8)
Hans
I just thought it to be therapeutic on a dull, grey, rainy day....but i see in it doesn't work for you... ;)
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You have seen the weather report for my area? :o
You are certainly right - your pictures brighten the day – on the other hand I feel my eyes jumping out of the orbit to often… ;) ;D
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I repeat here some posts ansd photos from Janis Ruksans in another thread.......
Referring to a trip to the Crimea: Excellent surprise was discovering of small population (some 200-300 sq.m.) of Sternbergia colchiciflora. It is quite rare in Crimea and Dima never before found it. Fortunately it keeps blooms open even in rainy weather. We walked all the day crossing yaila and nowhere found another one spot of it. Crimean population can to bloom underground and you can see plants only in spring when leaves and self-pollinated seedpods come out. I got report from Krasnodar district (Russia) about same. All my previous stocks originate from Turkey and they are “normal” blooming. It will be very interesting to compare those. Sternbergia colchiciflora is the single species successfully growable outside here as leaves are formed in spring only. Sternbergia candida can be grown outside here, too but it is not safe.
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An article about Sternbergias forwarded to me by Ian Young was very useful for me.
During visit to Greece I was confused because couldn't identify undoubtedly Sternbergias - one clump seemed to be sicula, another lutea and between them a lot of intermediates. Greuteriana I know only by plants got from other growers and in my collection they looked different from lutea/sicula, only one of last acquisitions got under name sicula I renamed as greuteriana this autumn. But all this "carousel" with stocks as lutea angustifolia etc. now is clarified. So really possibly the best would be to regard them as garden forms of one species. Still not so certain about greuteriana but it is for too little knowledge about its variation range. Extremes of course are very different.
Janis
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