Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Specific Families and Genera => Pleione and Orchidaceae => Topic started by: Paul Cumbleton on February 25, 2008, 05:57:44 PM

Title: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on February 25, 2008, 05:57:44 PM
A new page to showcase the expertise of our very own Pleione specialist, Paul Cumbleton..... "Wisley" to us!  I feel that Paul's work deserves a special place on the Forum.

This page has been started by moving posts from the main Pleione page -

This thread has been renamed and tidied up so is  showing a new reader count- sorry about the fact that the record of the  thousands of previous  readers have gone  :-X
Maggi






One of the first Pleiones to flower for me this year is one of my own hybrids. This is called Pleione Caparro. It first flowered in 2005 which is when I registered the name, and the cross is P. forrestii x P. Ueli Wackernagel 'Pearl'. It is fairly variable, but here is the one which has just opened:

Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: derekb on February 25, 2008, 06:56:19 PM

Paul thats a Cracker worth waiting 8 years for.
 Put me on the list.

Derek   ;
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on February 26, 2008, 06:09:42 PM
I mentioned previously about the difficulty of crossing P. maculata with most other pleiones and that after about 150 attempts I had just two or three successes. Well, here at last I am excited to show the first in flower. It is P. maculata x P. grandiflora. The result is not quite what hoped for ( I had hoped to get a maculata -look-alike but with a bigger flower on more of a stem. Well the flower is very like maculata in shape but still retains a short stem from the maculata parent. The grandiflora has given it a yellow lip which has made the spotting red rather than purple, though the shape and distribution of the spots is very maculata-like. It is a little larger overall than a typical maculata flower. The bulb is much more like the grandiflora parent - in fact the overall appearance is of a grandiflora-like bulb with a maculata-like flower stuck on it. I'd be interested to know if you all like this or not. Here are a couple of views of it:
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on February 26, 2008, 06:16:35 PM
I forgot to add to the previous post a couple of other pics. The first two are of another new hybrid which I named Sifaka. The cross is P. Piton x P. forrestii. Very variable, and mostly the top petals are a bit narrow, but lovely colours. I particularly like the ones with red streaks on the petals like the one shown. The third picture is P. Eiger 'Turtle Dove' which opened at the weekend. Also to note, these pictures are some of the first to be taken using my new Olympus E3. It has taken a while to get used to it but the results are beginning to impress me.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on February 26, 2008, 07:00:13 PM
Hi Paul.
Thanks for divulging your new babies.
First, let me tell you that despite the greatness of the achievement to cross maculata and grandiflora, like you I'm not overwhelmed with the result.  It's a really good looking flower all right, but I bet that like me,  you hoped for more spectacular 'maculatalike' colour contrasts.  :-\   
As to Sifaka, I already saw pictures of it in the last Pleione review and like then, I like it very much : stunning colours !  ::)
P. Eiger 'Turtle Dove' is also new to me : a very nice clone if you ask me.
Thanks again for showing.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: jonathan.wild on February 27, 2008, 03:00:50 PM
Lovely hybrids Paul - Congratulations!!
Not as impressed with the maculata hybrid as the other two. Just like a gorgeous woman - I like my Pleione flowers displayed on a good set of pins (or rather pin!) rather than scraping along the ground!
Please put me on the waiting list Paul - if you're open to bribes let me know!!
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on March 01, 2008, 03:40:44 PM
Here's another new one, this time the cross was made by my partner Colin and has been given the name Pleione Lucey. The parentage is yunnanensis x humilis. This one we selected out as the best of the offspring:
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul T on March 02, 2008, 02:54:14 AM
Great colouration!!  8)
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on March 02, 2008, 01:21:44 PM
Very very nice Paul ! Smashing !  :D
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: art600 on March 03, 2008, 02:09:43 AM

im going to save the pollinia of the P.barcena and use it on some of the later ones to see what i get...just hope the labs will be intrested in sowing them!

bye
rob

Rob

I am intrigued - what are the labs?
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul T on March 03, 2008, 02:55:28 AM
Art,

I think Rob's meaning laboratories...... sowing of Pleione (and so many Orchids for that matter) isn't just a quick sowing in a pot like most of the rest of what we grow!  ::)  Of course there'd be even more different ones to wow us if we could do it easily at home.  :D  You have to be able to find a laboratory who can sow them on agar with the correct fungal infusion for germination.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: art600 on March 03, 2008, 08:24:28 AM
Paul

Thanks for info. 

This prompts another question - do the adult Pleiones need the fungus to grow, or is it only for germination?
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on March 03, 2008, 08:46:00 AM
Hi Art,
When sowing orchids in flasks, they do not always need a fungus. Often, the nutrients etc that a fungus would normally supply can be provided as chemicals in the medium instead. With pleiones we are fortunate in that their needs can easily be met without a fungus, so they will germinate on "standard" orchid media. The adult plants seem to be able to grow without fungus, though it is possible that fungi come to occupy the "sterile" composts we often start with

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: mark smyth on March 04, 2008, 10:05:55 PM
Paul stunning hybrids! I only grow only Shantung and they live outside all year in my peat bed
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: ashley on March 05, 2008, 07:08:53 PM
With pleiones we are fortunate in that their needs can easily be met without a fungus, so they will germinate on "standard" orchid media.

Hi Paul,

Great plants there.  Just to clarify: can pleione seed be germinated on fresh orchid compost or is this better sterilised first, and at about what temperature?

Any guidance much appreciated,
Ashley   
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on March 06, 2008, 06:57:16 AM
Hi Ashley,
No, I'm afraid you cannot sow Pleione sed on normal orchid compost. When I said they will germinate on "standard" orchid media, by "media" I meant the special nutrient gel that goes in flasks for sowing and raising in a flask. They still need special nutrients that in the wild they would get from a fungus, it is just that in cultivation we can supply these nutrients artificially without having to use the actual fungus. There are some orchids for which we simply do not know what exactly they are getting from a fungus, and in these cases they need to innocculate the flasks with the fungus as well as supplying basic nutrients in the gel.

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: ashley on March 06, 2008, 09:41:24 AM
Thanks Paul.  So no avoiding the medium then  :(.   Having only a single pack of seed perhaps I'll just look for a pre-mix commercially available.
As a parallel experiment it might be interesting to try fresh bark though?
http://www.orchideenvermehrung.at/cgi-local/framebreaker/reload.pl?english/seed%20germination/bark/index.htm
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: mickeymuc on March 27, 2008, 10:53:45 AM
Hi there,

There have been experiments with sowing Pleione seeds on bark, in this case bark from the woods which might contain some fungus. Quite a coincidence, I know, but interesting results are shown here:

http://www.orchideenvermehrung.at/english/index.htm

Please go to "seed germination" and then to "germination on bark".
Would be fantastic if it worked.....

Best regards from Munich !

Michael
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on April 09, 2008, 05:32:31 PM
Hi Michael,
The results of sowing on bark are interesting - I may give this a go in the future. Thanks for the information

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on April 09, 2008, 05:44:26 PM
One or two more pictures of my hybrids. These are un-named as yet. The first two are variants from the same cross, which was Callisto x Salek. The third is an unusually coloured flower from Ueli Wackernagel x Edgecombe. The final three are all Caroli x Askia variants:
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: derekb on April 09, 2008, 06:56:56 PM

Paul I like them all but number 2 and 4 best.

Derek
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maggi Young on April 09, 2008, 07:18:49 PM
My word, what a good pleione day this is! I was agog at the red hybrid that you showed us from Ian Butterfield, Paul, and now these colourful babies of yours ...plus others on the Pleione pages.... 8)
You have some good trong shades here, too, Paul, verging on the red, eh?
The unusually coloured flower from Ueli Wackernagel x Edgecombe is lovely.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on April 09, 2008, 08:54:12 PM
Great work Paul !  Fabulous novelties !  :o :o
Very difficult to choose from.
If I could only get one, I'd go for the Ueli W. x edgecombe : very unusual mix of colours there !
Beautiful !
 :D
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on March 20, 2009, 09:20:26 PM
Hello Paul !

I'm sure you have some beauties to show us ....  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on March 26, 2009, 12:46:31 PM
Hi Luc,
My season seems al ittle later than usual but my hybrids are just starting, so I will try and share some more photos soon

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on March 26, 2009, 12:47:56 PM
cool !  8)
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Guus on April 29, 2009, 11:08:03 AM
Hi Paul and others, I composed a medium that needs no difficult chemicals and is made from 'supermarket materials'. Pleione forestii germinated very well on this medium. The only thing that you need to go for (here in NL) to an 'Asian Toko' is the agar. I used the liquid plant-fertiliser, sugar and fruitjuice! Everyone can do it....
Greetings, Guus
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on May 01, 2009, 12:50:10 PM
Here is a picture of the white P. Ueli Wackernagel that I recently mentioned. It arose from a sibling cross of P. Ueli Wackernagel 'Pearl' with another similar pale form of Ueli Wackernagel. It is pure, ice-white without the slightest hint of pink. In fact the petals are almost translucent in the right lighting conditions.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on May 01, 2009, 08:55:06 PM
Looks great Paul !!
Really pristine white !
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul T on May 07, 2009, 12:29:01 PM
Beautiful, Paul.  So pure.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Eric Locke on May 09, 2009, 10:14:24 PM

Lovely Paul .
Nice to see another pure white hybrid.

Eric
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: daveyp1970 on October 25, 2009, 04:39:20 PM
Paul that is to a Pleione newbie stunning but can i ask a question,i know pleiones produce bulbils to aid propagation and some not so many so the newer hybrids tend to be quite pricey untill there is enough about to not warrant such a price(supply and demand like every other new plant)but can they not be mass produced like phaleanopsis(meristem prop)if they could im sure it would open some fantastic to plants to us mere mortals.this might sound like a daft question and one you have been asked millions of times and for that i'm sorry ;)
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: mark smyth on October 25, 2009, 08:07:22 PM
I think it's a good question but could supermarkets sell Pleiones in the numbers that Phalaeopsis are sold? I'd say it's all down to cost
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on October 26, 2009, 10:42:53 AM
I don't think Pleione are commercially "interesting" enough to attract the attention of the "big boys" who would be able to propagate on a large scale. 
I personally would'nt like that anyway - I prefer them to be "rare" and rather hard to get - makes it all the more fun and gratifying when you obtain one..   ;)
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: daveyp1970 on October 26, 2009, 11:32:25 AM
i wasn't thinking of total mass production but was wondering if it was possible at all.I understand there is not the commercial appeal there well not to the masses but i still would rather joe blogg down the road have a go or at least able to have a go with a newer hybrid,would it not be better in a lots of hands rather than the select few i'm sure the flower would not loose any beauty because a few more people have it or is it people want it for its rarity not for its beauty.I suppose this a very personal argument(if thats the right word)i personally love being able to offer my plants to people and then they show me they have flowered it.
   I'm sorry to Paul i never meant to take his thread here yet again i just wanted to no if tissue culture was possible?
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on October 26, 2009, 01:30:23 PM
Certainly not a silly question, and one I was interested to know the answer to many years ago as it would be nice to be able to make new hybrids available more quickly. It is possible to propagate Pleione by tissue culture and this has been done by researchers. However,as others have pointed out, the market for Pleione is so small that it is not commercially viable for them to be propagated this way. Even if someone did it, because of the small number of potential sales they would not achieve the same economy of scale as that achieved for say Phalaenopsis. The only reason tissue-cultured Phalaenopsis are so cheap now is that they are produced quite literally by the millions. So tissue-cultured Pleione would not be cheap. Also, although home tissue culture is not completely impossible for amateurs, it is difficult and -in the UK at least- access to the chemicals etc required is almost impossible.

For these reasons, it is unlikely that tissue culture will ever be used for Pleione and we have little choice but to continue to propagate in the usual way. The typical cost of a new hybrid is therefore actually extremely good value for money when you consider the time and effort that have gone into making it available. It was ten years after I first started breeding that I was able to make my first hybrids available for sale and even then I had only maybe 20 spare bulbs of each. Even then, these were mixed clones - it will be even more years before selected, named clones can be offered of any of them. Looked at in this way, £25 - £30 say for a new hybrid seems very reasonable.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on October 26, 2009, 02:08:29 PM
i personally love being able to offer my plants to people and then they show me they have flowered it.
 

So do I Dave, so do I !  That's part of the fun isn't it !!  :D
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: mark smyth on October 26, 2009, 11:05:42 PM
 £25 - £30 say for a new hybrid seems very reasonable.

Much the same for a snowdrop.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: daveyp1970 on October 27, 2009, 09:55:54 AM
paul and mark im not saying 25-30 pound for a new plant is a lot of money,i understand what goes into producing a new hybrid,i used to grow paphiopedilums and im not going to tell you how much i used to pay for my Rothschildianum plants,so i really do understand the cost of good plants which come at a premium,all i am saying is paul hybrids are that good to look at it would be fantatstic if there was a lot more of them out there quicker and i was wondering if tissue culture was an avenue,and i know mark with inn snowdrop circles some people dont want there plants into mass cultivation(keeping there rarity value)which i just cant get my head around because unless these people keep the plants just to themselves then there rarity value is lost everytime a single individual gets one.No matter which genus of plants i just think (if it was my plant and i have a hardy geranium thats going to field trials soon)i would get a better buz knowing a lot of people want and are growing my plant than a select few.Yet again i apologise for taking this thread away from your superb plants maybe this should be discussed on another thread, i find this subject fascinating.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Eric Locke on October 28, 2009, 07:06:19 PM
paul and mark im not saying 25-30 pound for a new plant is a lot of money,i understand what goes into producing a new hybrid,i used to grow paphiopedilums and im not going to tell you how much i used to pay for my Rothschildianum plants,so i really do understand the cost of good plants which come at a premium,all i am saying is paul hybrids are that good to look at it would be fantatstic if there was a lot more of them out there quicker and i was wondering if tissue culture was an avenue,and i know mark with inn snowdrop circles some people dont want there plants into mass cultivation(keeping there rarity value)which i just cant get my head around because unless these people keep the plants just to themselves then there rarity value is lost everytime a single individual gets one.No matter which genus of plants i just think (if it was my plant and i have a hardy geranium thats going to field trials soon)i would get a better buz knowing a lot of people want and are growing my plant than a select few.Yet again i apologise for taking this thread away from your superb plants maybe this should be discussed on another thread, i find this subject fascinating.

Dave I sympathise with you. It has long bugged me too that the "chosen few" always obtain the plants most of us never get a chance to obtain . This applies in all plant groups, where it depends on "who you are" and "who you know". >:(

Eric
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Michael J Campbell on October 28, 2009, 08:20:40 PM
Eric,I agree with you 100%. It is a point I was afraid to make myself. The same ideas apply to the shows,If you know what I mean.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: LarsB on October 28, 2009, 10:06:55 PM
Although i recognise the masonic communities within the gardening world, I've found from the beginnign of my carreer in amateur gardening a different bred of gardeners will to share their plants, also with the less expeienced gardener. I had much help from very experienced plantsmen when I first started and I try to give some back to newcomers.

I've also experienced that the masonic communities also hold a larger number of people with a questionable attitude towards the plants origins. Another reason to keep a healthy distance.  :)
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: mark smyth on October 28, 2009, 10:18:33 PM
Davey I would love to here more about your Geranium. Will you send me a photo? Diversifying again, sorry, Galanthus, are now being micropropped in Belfast and sent to Holland for growing on. I really have to go back and see how they are getting on.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: luis on January 23, 2010, 01:40:43 PM
Can anyone tell me when i begin to put whater in my pleione bulbs? (sorry by my macarronic english)   :-\
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maggi Young on January 23, 2010, 02:31:12 PM
Luis, there is much  helpful information on cultivation on Paul Cumpleton's website :
http://www.pleione.info/  

For instance; this is what he says about watering:

Quote
"Watering

The critical time is early in the season. The roots usually start to grow more or less as the flowers fade and at this time it is important to give only a little water - the aim is to keep the compost only-just damp and make the newly-emerging roots go searching for moisture. If the mix is too wet at this time there is a danger the new roots will rot. Once however the roots are well established (often evidenced by rapid leaf growth) watering can be increased substantially. Pleiones come from areas which get the summer monsoon. As long as your mix is very free draining, it is difficult to give them too much water once they are actively growing. Rain water, soft tap water or RO (reverse-osmosis) are best. If you have very hard tap water, this is OK but I would be cautious about keeping them too wet. If possible, keep them open to the weather in summer so they can be rained on. They love it! Personally I take the roof glass out of the glasshouse they are in so the rain can fall in on them. It also keeps them cooler. As days shorten in the autumn, growth slows and finally stops and the leaves start to go yellow. This is the time to reduce watering and as the leaf colour starts to go brown, stop watering altogether and allow them to completely dry out. The leaves will finally fall off and the pseudobulbs enter their dormant phase."
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: luis on January 23, 2010, 02:54:06 PM
Ok, but now is January and some of the flower buds are slowly taking out... it's now the time to give whater or i wait? ???
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maggi Young on January 23, 2010, 03:37:16 PM
Luis, when we grew Pleiones here in NE Scotland, we never gave water until the flowers were almost over and the leaves beginning to emerge. We would not water now.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: luis on January 23, 2010, 08:16:36 PM
Ok, thank you very much! I will wait. ;)
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Eric Locke on January 23, 2010, 10:23:45 PM
Ok, but now is January and some of the flower buds are slowly taking out... it's now the time to give whater or i wait? ???

Hi Lius

I find it best to start watering only if the pans start to get very dry, which usually means around late Feb.
Only give enough water to slightly dampen the pans though and keep like this untill the leaves are well into growth which is around mid Apr.

Eric
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: luis on January 24, 2010, 01:09:13 PM
My pleione bulbs are drying, but the flower buds are very good looking.  :) I will post my pleione photos... it's a promiss!!!
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: luis on February 11, 2010, 01:51:59 PM
Can anyone tell me how i post photos? ???
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maggi Young on February 11, 2010, 02:03:50 PM
Hi, Luis, all  you need to know about posting photos is written here :
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=65.msg132875;topicseen#msg132875  :)
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Casalima on February 11, 2010, 02:27:47 PM
Olá Luís!

I hadn't noticed your arrival here - welcome!
Great to see somebody with Pleione in Portugal - I would love to have orchids, but don't really have anywhere appropriate just at the moment. Too much sun! Did you get yours in Portugal or order them from abroad?
If you need any help with English/Portuguese, I would be happy to help!

um abraço
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: luis on February 12, 2010, 08:40:40 PM
Hi Casalima, it's very good to have orchid entusiasts here! I bought all by ebay, specially the pleiones. Yesterday my first pleione of the year give flower... i supose it's very soon, but it's lovely... it's a pleione Zeus Weinstein desert sands  ;D
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: anne gibson on February 18, 2010, 09:28:57 PM
I have some pleione limprichtii seeds from exchange, which I think would be better going to a good home. ie someone who has access to proper growing media/ conditions. if any one interested please send me an e-mail. sorry if posted in wrong area.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on March 20, 2010, 10:28:22 AM
At last a few moments to sit and send this to show you some more new hybrids.
First is Bonobo which is P. grandiflora x P. forrestii. As I hoped, some of these have turned out yellow.

I have previously shown Caparro which is P. forrestii x P. Ueli wackernagel. But I also did this cross the other way round (P. Ueli wackernagel x P. forrestii) and show here an example of that.

Next is Pleione Chimpanzee which is P. Zeus weinstein x P. x confusa. These were fairly variable. Some turned out yellow (a pale version of which is shown) and some a bit pinker (also shown). Not surprisingly given the parentage, some turned out looking very much like a yellow Shantung (not shown).

Then comes P. Gorilla which is P. Piton x P. Salek. These were very variable but nearly all were most attractive. A couple of examples are shown.

Finally is P. Muriel, a hybrid bred by my partner Colin Everett. This is P. aurita x P. grandiflora. These make vigorous bulbs with large flowers. Shown is one of the better ones.

Enjoy!

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Eric Locke on March 20, 2010, 06:27:10 PM

Hi Paul

Very nice Paul, thanks for showing them.
Very much like that clone of Muriel from Colin"s cross but would be happy to have any of them in my collection.

Eric
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Ragged Robin on March 20, 2010, 06:40:26 PM
Paul your new Pleione hybrids are wonderful - i particularly like P. Gorilla (1)  - what Pleione attributes are you looking for in particular?
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on March 20, 2010, 07:10:26 PM
Hi Eric,
Yes Muriel is a very satisfactory cross - lovely flowers, which are quite large and on vigorous bulbs. The seedlings varied a lot in terms of the amount of yellow in the lip, but the best are very yellow. It is bulking up fairly quickly, so I would hope to be able to release some in a couple of years time.

Hi Robin,
Gorilla is one of my favourites too from all the crosses I have done. I have a "Monkey" theme to most of my names and the names of the three great apes have been given to those crosses I though the most outstanding.
When I first started breeding I just crossed anything with anything that I thought may give an interesting result. I still don't have any major "target" I am aiming for, but perhaps several things. A few of these would be:

Plants with disitinct lines on the petals
Yellow flowers (there are still surprisingly few really good yellow hybrids)
Orange shades
Winter flowering hybrids with tall stems (no luck so far - the short stem of the autumn species seems to be dominant!)
In all hybrids I would like flowers of good substance, which present well on good stems and grow vigorously.
Cheers for now

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Alex on March 20, 2010, 10:18:17 PM
Hi Paul,

Muriel is a wonderful colour. It seems to me that P. aurita is a particularly good parent, most of my favourites have this in the parentage. Can I ask, do you publish a list of bulbs for sale at some time in the year?

Thanks,

Alex
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Ragged Robin on March 21, 2010, 09:24:28 AM
Paul, thanks so much for taking the time to provide all this invaluable information on Pleione and congratulations on your success. 
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maren on March 25, 2010, 09:40:44 AM
Paul, what a wonderful new crop. I think my favourites are Bonobo and Muriel. A large potful of either would make me very happy for a very long time. Thanks for showing them to us.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on March 25, 2010, 10:00:46 AM
A stunning series Paul !!  :o :o
You seem to have been a busy boy !  ;)

My favourites are Muriel - Gorilla 1 and Chimpanzee 2, but like Eric I' d be glad to have any one of them in my collection...  :-\
Very much looking forward to a "list" of "spares" sometime in future ??  :D :D
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on March 25, 2010, 10:38:49 AM
Thanks for comments everyone, I'm glad you like these plants. I also know that showing people new plants can create a demand for them that cannot be met. I have perhaps 2 or at the most 3 bulbs of each of the selected forms shown, so it will be a few years before I can build up enough stock to release. The alternative is to keep new hybrids "secret" and never show their pictures until I have enough to make some available. I'm hoping most of you prefer to see things as they occur, at least it shows what new things are under development that one day you will be able to get.

More positively, one or two of my earlier hybrids are coming along well. I anticipate that I will have enough of "P. Snow Monkey" to release either next season or if not then definitely the season after.

Alex, just to add that I do not have a list of bulbs for sale every year. I only do a list when I have enough spares of things - which is likely to be only every 3 or 4 years perhaps.

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on March 25, 2010, 10:41:28 AM
I forgot to add that "Muriel" is also doing well and I should be able to release some soon after Snow Monkey. These will be mixed clones, not the selected one I showed below which I currently only have the one bulb of, but they are all good plants

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on March 25, 2010, 10:44:45 AM
We appreciate your comments Paul, and we definitely want to see your beauties as soon as they see the light...  ;D ;D

And as you know, we are very patient people...  ::) ::) :-X
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: karel_t on March 25, 2010, 10:55:19 AM
Paul - amazing plants  :o :o :o - congratulation!
My favourites are Bonobo, Chimpanzee (2) and Muriel.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maggi Young on March 25, 2010, 10:56:23 AM
Paul, what a wonderful new crop. I think my favourites are Bonobo and Muriel. A large potful of either would make me very happy for a very long time. Thanks for showing them to us.
You and I seem to have the same taste, Maren... those were my favourites, too!
congratulations are in order for you and for Colin for these smart new flowers, Paul.

Some folks do seem not to realise that stocks can take a long time to build up, whether in Pleione or, perhaps, Erythronium, but most of us do understand those limitations and really enjoy seeing what the future may bring.... or even just delight in the photos .....  :)
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Sam on March 25, 2010, 08:25:15 PM
veru beautiful hybrids Paul !
My vavorite are Bonobo, Muriel and Chimpanzee
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on April 05, 2010, 12:01:16 PM
Hi everyone, a few more new hybrids to share with you.

First is P. Angwatibo (P. aurita x P. Adams). Most seedlings of this cross came out a dark mauve but one or two nice reds also emerged like the one shown. Having a good orange lip makes this one especially nice I think.

Next is my re-make of P. Edgecombe (P. aurita x P. forrestii). This cross has produced some of the most interesting colours of any of the hybrids and many of the seedlings are very attractive. Sadly though, this cross is also known for often growing weakly and being particularly susceptible to “Black Pit” disease. I will enjoy it while it lasts!

P. Guenon is a cross between P. Erebus and P. Quizapu and makes some pretty colour combinations.

Next up is P. Siamang which is P. yunnanensis x P. albiflora. Nothing special colour-wise but still attractive for me.

Then comes one of my re-makes of P. Glacier Peak (P. formosana x P. grandiflora)

Finally a new autumn-flowering hybrid, P. Slender Loris. This flowers around November time and is P. Ueli Wackernagel x P. praecox

Paul


Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Slug Killer on April 05, 2010, 01:38:23 PM
Hi Paul

Some stunners there! P. Slender Loris is very nice but my favourite has to be P. Angwatibo for the colours and the shape.

It's a shame about P. Edgecombe not growing to well but hopefully I'll have my first to flower this year, fingers crossed. Might redo the cross myself of this one as I've saved some pollen.

David
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: luis on April 05, 2010, 03:20:38 PM
Uau they are all fantastic! So so beautiful hibrids... P. Angwatibo is very very nice! Congratulations Paul!
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: karel_t on April 05, 2010, 05:40:44 PM
Hi Paul.
I agree with David - P. Angwatibo is amazing, but this clone of re-make of Edgecombe is also very pretty. I made my own re-make of Edgecombe last year, so I'm looking forward to result  ;).
Karel.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on April 05, 2010, 06:54:22 PM
Great work Paul !!!  More exquisite Pleione !

All are truly beautiful and you definitely cannot NOT like Angwatibo - however the pink/yellow combination in the petals of Guenon is particularly appealing to me !!

Thanks again for sharing these... You're making us all very anxious to see another list of "spares" appear ...  ;)
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Pete Clarke on April 05, 2010, 07:59:53 PM
Another lot of great crosses & pics Paul. Keep them coming please.

Have you got a picture of Indri? I have this coming along from my own cross & I am eager to know what they are like.

Pete.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Eric Locke on April 05, 2010, 08:58:47 PM

Hi Paul

A very nice series again.
As with everyone else, Angwatibo is really something special. ::) ::) ::)
I am just about to de-flask my Edgecombe and am looking forward to these.

Thanks again for showing them all.

Eric
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maren on April 06, 2010, 08:39:09 AM
Hi Paul,
what a wonderful collection. Congratulations. Angwatibo is exquisite, and the others not far behind, love the Edgecombe.
Interesting to see a new autumn flowering one, I have a particular love for those. Would you say that Slender Loris is an improvement on praecox?  and does it still retain the glorious perfume ?

One more question please, your yunnanensis x coronaria cross is just coming into flower. Did you register it?
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Pieter on April 06, 2010, 10:30:25 AM
Hello Paul

Absolutely smashing new hybrids. Congrets. They are all looking very good but I especially like Muriel. The combination of the colours is wonderfull. And the remake of Edgecombe proves it still is a notorious hybrid. Really spectacular.

Keep up the work! ;)

greetings Pieter
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on April 07, 2010, 12:55:09 PM
Hi Pete,
P. Indri has proved quite variable - some came out white and looking pretty much like the grandiflora parent, some came out pale yellow with red markings in the lip and another is just opening which looks as if it will be different again. I will post some pics once I have got this latter one taken.

Maren, yes i think Slender Loris is an improvment on straight praecox. Although the colours are similar, the petals are better - praecox petals often recurve badly, can be very narrow and the whole flower may droop badly. Sleder Loris does none of these things. As for scent... to be honest I can't remember just now! Will have to check this again next autumn.

The cross of yunnanensis x coronaria was made by Martin Hazelton, not one of mine. He has recently registered this as P. Kyoto

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maren on April 08, 2010, 10:09:47 PM
Hi Paul, thank you for clearing this up and sorry about my mistake in attributing the Kyoto to you.

May I put myself on the waiting list for Slender Loris????? ;)
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on April 10, 2010, 06:35:16 PM
Peter,
Here are some pictures of P. Indri as promised. These 3 examples show just how variable this cross proved to be.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maren on April 11, 2010, 10:00:54 AM
Hi Paul,
how extraordinary. you wouldn't think they could come out of the same seedpod. Number 2 is my favourite. I have to admit to a penchant for white flowers and this one really appeals. One more for the waiting list. :)
Thank you for showing them to us.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Eric Locke on April 12, 2010, 12:04:30 AM

Hi Paul . Certainly a big variation within Indri cross.
My favourite of these would be the third clone .

Eric
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on April 12, 2010, 08:50:17 AM
I go with Eric for the third clone Paul !! All beautiful though !  ;)
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Pete Clarke on April 12, 2010, 09:35:28 PM
Many thanks Paul, nice Indri pics.
It is exciting to see a cross that produces such varying and very nice plants. My favourite would be the first one. I will eagerly await mine flowering one day.

Pete.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Kevin on January 17, 2011, 09:39:43 PM
Paul,

please add me to your email list.

Thanks,
Kevin
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on June 27, 2011, 05:32:43 PM
Today I sent out by email my new list of Pleione for sale. Due to a problem with my email server it is possible a few people did not receive it. If you were expecting a copy and did not get one, please let me know.

Thnaks

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Faan on June 27, 2011, 07:41:49 PM
Exporting to South Africa?
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on June 27, 2011, 10:11:09 PM
Sorry but I can only supply to Europe.
If there are other enquiries about the list, please email me privately

Thanks

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: sottych on February 16, 2012, 05:36:42 PM
Hello Paul !
Pleiones wonderful , your collection is really beautiful , beautiful colors.
It makes you want to own these plants.
Where and how can they be purchased , you sell directly ?
Cordilly
Christian
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on February 16, 2012, 08:54:59 PM
Hi Christian,
Yes I sell my hybrids directly. But I only make a list for sale once every 3 or 4 years. I just did one this year (now all sold) so it will be quite a long time before i can sell again. I will add you to my email list so you get a sales list next time I make one.

Kind regards

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: sottych on February 17, 2012, 11:19:07 AM
Hello Paul,
Thank you very munch , for note my adress list.

Cordially
Christian
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Chuck on July 22, 2012, 09:11:28 AM
Very nice colors. You rarely see hybrids of Pleiones in the States.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on December 09, 2012, 12:53:59 PM
It's quite a while since I posted new pictures, so here are three new autumn-flowering hybrids. The crosses are:

Pleione Mandrill = P. praecox x P. yunnanensis
Pleione Marmoset = P. Piton x P. maculata
P. Macaque (2 pictures of different clones) = P. saxicola x P. forrestii

Paul

Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maren on December 11, 2012, 10:10:17 PM
Lovely, Paul, I particularly like the P. Marmoset. Would you grow that a little warmer because of the maculata influence?
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on December 12, 2012, 05:32:16 PM
Hi Maren,
Yes I keep Marmoset with the maculatas so warmer than the rest of my pleiones. Macaque is perfectly happy kept with the main collection, as is Mandrill although I also keep a few of these indoors too with the maculatas as an insurance.

As you see, Marmoset is rather like a large flowered maculata in appearance though with narrower petals. When the flower first opens the petals reflex right back and spoil the look of the flower, but over the course of 3-4 days they move back again to a normal position. Hybrids with maculata are so rare, so I am really pleased with this one. Numbers are slowly but surely increasing so I hope to be able to make it available in a couple of years or so time.

Cheers
Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: karel_t on December 12, 2012, 07:54:35 PM
Hi Paul,
There is fantastic to see all your beautiful hybrids. Mandril has very nice shape of petals and it seems that will be multiply very well.
Marmoset looks better than last year, so I see it will be very promising hybrid.
However Macaque on the first picture is a favourite of mine ;)
Cheers
Karel
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: ThomasB on December 19, 2012, 10:12:21 AM
All of them are lovely crosses. Mandrill shows the best flower shape while the colour combination of Macaque is especially nice in my opinion.  :D


Regards
Thomas
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on December 22, 2012, 07:05:28 PM
One of the first pictures I showed in this thread was Pleione Gelada which is P. maculata x P. grandiflora. Until now that was the only clone of this cross that had flowered. Now another has opened and this to me is a much better clone. Nice to have something like this in flower at Christmas!
Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maggi Young on December 22, 2012, 07:09:44 PM
I like that  very much , Paul . Those with clear colours ( no streaks) on the back petals are my preference.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maren on December 22, 2012, 08:01:57 PM
Paul,
that is a fantastic achievement. Congratulations. :) :) :)
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on December 22, 2012, 09:29:00 PM
Gorgeous flower, Paul !  :o
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: erf on December 29, 2012, 04:29:53 PM
Fantastic flowers Paul. I specialy like the P. Macaque. Hope you are able to build up a stock, big enough to offer some for sale.  ;) ;) ;D
Interesting to see, what Pln. saxicola can contribute to hybrids in the future.
Regards Erling
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on March 27, 2014, 10:25:58 AM
It's been a while since I posted any new crosses, so below are three to enjoy. These days I only make 3 or 4 new crosses each year.

The pictures are:

Pleione Kituro 'Sulphur' x P. grandiflora
Pleione xbarbarae x P. Santorini 'Yellow Wagtail'
Pleione Suswa - my own remake of the hybrid originally done by Ian Butterfield. (When I saw the beautiful orangey colours this cross produced for Ian I just had to do it myself!)

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Slug Killer on March 27, 2014, 11:27:03 AM
Pleione Suswa is stunning.

David
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: karel_t on March 27, 2014, 12:00:00 PM
Hi Paul,
I agree with David - Suswa is fantastic. I'm looking forward to see them with one's own eyes.
K.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: erf on March 27, 2014, 09:30:20 PM
Hello Paul
What a color and shape, that is a fantastic Pln. Suswa.
Erling
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maren on March 29, 2014, 10:56:41 AM
Hi Paul,
I agree with all above: Suswa is outstanding. Well done!!! :)

I notice Ian does not have his in his catalogue. :( :( :(
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on March 29, 2014, 11:29:20 AM
Hi Maren,
Like its Edgecombe parent, Suswa can be a bit miffy to grow; rather prone to fungal pathogens. (I wonder if that is why Ian doesn't list it this time?) Still, it's not as bad as some in this respect so I'm certainly going to do my best to propagate and distribute it. I find for ones like this -especially Edgecombe whose colours are so wonderful - that the best approach is to re-make the cross every 3 or 4 years so that you always have some new stock coming along to replace the inevitable losses. It's worth the effort for these outstanding colours!
Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on March 30, 2014, 03:10:12 PM
One clone of P. Red Colobus consistently holds its flowers almost straight up (see first picture below). I would be very interested to know if people find this feature appealing or if you think it looks awful!
Second picture shows Pleione Talapoin (P. Askia x P. forrestii)

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: gregork on March 30, 2014, 04:01:33 PM
P. suswa is a real beauty however i really like  Pleione xbarbarae x P. Santorini 'Yellow Wagtail' hybrid. Very nice colour! :)

Regarding P Red colobus... it is quiet interesting but I think it will be even more interesting to try some crossing with some Pleione that have flowers looking more down to the ground ( P. coronaria for an example)
P. Talapoin looks stunning aswell  ;)

All the best!
Gregor
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maggi Young on March 30, 2014, 06:42:00 PM
One clone of P. Red Colobus consistently holds its flowers almost straight up (see first picture below). I would be very interested to know if people find this feature appealing or if you think it looks awful!
Second picture shows Pleione Talapoin (P. Askia x P. forrestii)

Paul
  Perhaps they're trying to keep their heads above water.........
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: monocotman on March 31, 2014, 10:54:49 AM
Paul,
just a comment on Red colobus.
I do like pleiones that present their flowers well and slightly upright but for me this is slightly too upright!
Regards,
David
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: erf on April 02, 2014, 09:17:51 PM
Hello Paul
Must admit, I find the very upright Pleione Red Colobus a little too upright.
Regards Erling
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Slug Killer on April 03, 2014, 01:06:13 PM
Hi Paul

Awful ;D

David
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maren on April 12, 2014, 10:32:04 PM
Hi Paul,

I feel that Pleione Red Colobus presents a welcome opportunity to cross with something that considers its navel. There are lots who do that, so much the pity, Orinoco 'Gemini' for example.  The Colobus's colour is nice, should produce something very pleasing.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maggi Young on April 13, 2014, 11:37:11 AM
Hi Paul,

I feel that Pleione Red Colobus presents a welcome opportunity to cross with something that considers its navel. There are lots who do that, so much the pity, Orinoco 'Gemini' for example.  The Colobus's colour is nice, should produce something very pleasing.

That's a good point, Maren - and one I hadn't thought of - yes, there are quite a lot of "droopers" out there who could  benefit from a bit of this star-gazing feature.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on December 27, 2015, 08:21:21 PM
I have produced a new list of spare Pleiones for sale including the first release of many of my own hybrids. Everyone who has had a list from me in the past should have received this new one today. If you did not, let me know (private message) and I will email you one. If anyone else would like one, please ask. Many items on the list are in very short supply and some have already sold out within hours of me emailing out the list, mainly the larger flowering size bulbs. However, smaller sizes of many of them are still available.
Thanks
Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on April 20, 2017, 04:54:29 PM
Pleione Aye-Aye is a beautiful hybrid but seems very prone to disease so is hard to build up numbers. It hasn't flowered for a couple of years either as a result, but this year has done better. This one pictured is the best clone so far.

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: erf on April 20, 2017, 10:05:52 PM
I have produced a new list of spare Pleiones for sale including the first release of many of my own hybrids. Everyone who has had a list from me in the past should have received this new one today. If you did not, let me know (private message) and I will email you one. If anyone else would like one, please ask. Many items on the list are in very short supply and some have already sold out within hours of me emailing out the list, mainly the larger flowering size bulbs. However, smaller sizes of many of them are still available.
Thanks
Paul

Hello Paul
If you still have something for sale, I will be like a list from you.
Kind regards
Erling
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on April 21, 2017, 07:48:42 AM
Erling, I have no list this year - note that the message below about a list is an old one from 2015

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on August 21, 2017, 02:43:54 PM
Many Pleione growers have been seeing increasing levels of virus infections in their collections. While I have always rigorously disposed of any plants with symptoms, this does not seem to have helped and this year has seen my collection with an unprecedented number of plants showing symptoms. Seeing so many spoilt flowers brings me little joy and therefore with some sadness I have decided to stop growing Pleiones.

My entire collection is going to a friend who has isolation facilities and he will grow them on to try and pick out any that still appear virus-free. Those plants he will then grow and hopefully propagate so that at least some of my hybrids will still continue to be available at some stage in the future.

While somewhat sad, I prefer to be positive about this; I have grown Pleione for over 30 years and had much pleasure from them. The space created means I can try growing new things, and less time spent re-potting hundreds of Pleione pots will give me much more time to develop the outside garden which I am much looking forward to. Onward and upwards!

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Maggi Young on August 21, 2017, 03:26:40 PM
A sad time, Paul - but probably the wisest move.
Good that you have a positive attitude to the situation.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Alex on August 21, 2017, 03:42:02 PM
So sorry to hear this, Paul. I have been seriously worried by the virus problem for a few years now and the thought of stopping because of it has certainly crossed my mind. Do you think that a quarantine approach will be enough if it is true that virus can be completely dormant in an infected plant perhaps for years? Do you know if Karel's new test that he has mentioned is ready for use yet (experimental use only perhaps but still valuable)?

I have bought viruses material from more than one nursery this year and had one well established nurseryman simply deny the classic symptoms. It is so hard when you really can't trust even the bigger name suppliers.

On a related note, I really do hope very much that your wonderful hybrids are not lost to us. I adore the shades you have achieved and would love to grow some more of them some day.

Alex
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on August 21, 2017, 04:35:33 PM
Thanks Maggi & Alex.
Karel's work is ongoing and his testing of my plants contributed to the reasons I decided to give up. As you point out it has become increasingly clear that Pleione can have latent virus that is not expressed - at least not in certain conditions. These plants may be sold in good faith but then in a different micro climate with different treatment the virus may show. I feel sorry for the nurserymen who sell stock that seemed OK but then expresses virus in the new home of the purchaser. When I have sold plants I always did it in good faith and never offered anything I was remotely suspicious of - but it seems that is no longer sufficient and I don't want to risk spreading virus around even if inadvertently. No, quarantine on its own won't and whatever plants emerge from that looking clean will need testing to see if they truly are so.

Walking into a glasshouse and seeing many distorted and discoloured flowers and leaves is simply disheartening and this is my prime reason for calling it a day.

There are so many wonderful plants out there I'm sure I'll soon have other things to bring me joy!

Paul

Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Alex on August 21, 2017, 05:47:04 PM
It is all a bit depressing on the Pleione front. If your collection turned out to contain a lot of viral plants, including those not showing symptoms (I'm reading between the lines and making assumptions here, sorry if wrong!), then little hope for the rest of us to be clean it would seem.

I agree that here are lots of other great plants out there though....perhaps more Frits and SA bulbs and even a list of these in time? I am particularly keen on the Frits. Good luck with all of it in any case.

Alex
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Anders on August 21, 2017, 07:50:32 PM
Paul, do you know if the latent Pleione vira can infect plants from other genera? Pleione with the slightest sign of virus infection always go straight to the garbage bin, but some of my Bletilla flowers looked a bit fishy this year, perhaps it wasn't because of the wet summer. And what about Liparis and Calanthe...and...and.... Very depressing.

Anders
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Alex on August 21, 2017, 08:35:34 PM
Right, Anders, depressing it is because we are powerless as it stands. We can't identify the infected plants and have to just wait for symptoms to emerge wherever they do.  :(

THe only useful measure seems to be very regular spraying to prevent further spread. I've been spraying an oil-based agent every 2-4 weeks so hopefully that at least stops whatever plants are clean from being affected
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Tim Harberd on August 23, 2017, 05:52:34 PM
Hi Guys,
         This all sounds very sad... I've almost given up on peonies (note the missing 'l' !!) for similar reasons.
   On the subject of Pleiones: How long ago do you reckon virus started to be a problem? I’ve not added any stock from outside sources for some years… and fortunately I don’t recognise Paul’s description of ‘seeing many distorted and discoloured flowers and leaves’ so maybe I’m free of the problem?

Tim DH
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: ian mcdonald on August 23, 2017, 08:54:03 PM
I only have a few Pleiones and they seem to be ok. The leaves are broad and green and the flowers were not distorted. Mine are grown in a sand tray in the greenhouse with a top dressing of chipped bark. They hardly get any feed. Perhaps they are more hardy against disease? Here,s hoping.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: erf on August 24, 2017, 03:01:12 PM
And what about the future for Pleione. I am not willing to give up. I have fallen quite in love with this plant and visa versa :) :). For sure we have to dispose of Pleione with is affected with virus and for sure this alone will not do the trick. I think that Pleione is a fantastic hobby and I will keep on to my collection. I will for sure dispose of anything that shows signs of disease as I always have, but I will for sure also still offer surplus bulbs for sale. I think that is the best one can do, and then we have to live with some amount of virus. But Pleione have still so many good moments to offer. Just my opinion.  ??? ??? ??? ;) ;)
Best wishes
Erling
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: karel_t on August 24, 2017, 07:54:31 PM
Tim, there is very difficult to say if your healthy looking plants are really virus-free without testing.
Here is one example:
This Pleione scopulorum we tested by EM in September 2012, because one plant showed brown blotches on the leaves. I didn't expect any virus just bacterial infection - the result you can see on EM picture - potyvirus.
In the next years we tested more than 100 samples and many of them didn't show any visible symptoms.
Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that all pleione collections have at least one viral plant  :(

Paul, I'm sure you will find another treasures for your pleasure. I look forward to see your new plants in the garden next year :D
K.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: ian mcdonald on August 25, 2017, 04:24:07 PM
Perhaps too much feed to improve the size of bulbs and flowers has resulted in weaker plants where disease is concerned? Maybe the plants should be grown in harder conditions to improve disease resistance? Perhaps Paul could try this regime with a few Pleiones?
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: sjusovare on September 01, 2017, 07:21:18 PM
Ian, I doubt feeding regime has any influence when it comes to virus unfortunately, either the plants are in contact of those virus through insect wounds, bark, water.. in which case they get contaminated (without necessarily showing signs during a long period, during which they can contaminate the others...), either they simply don't... It's not like animals who have a direct immune system allowing them to destroy the pathogens when they encounter it, in which case the general health is important
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: johnw on September 01, 2017, 09:08:07 PM
Julien - Actually in Nerine there are both species & cultivars that have latent virus.  Too much nitrogen and the virus appears but by with-holding nitrogen the symptoms can recede, sadly this applies to only a few.  There are those that seem permanently infected and yet perform and flower normally.

john
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: sjusovare on September 02, 2017, 09:27:39 PM
John, too much nitrogen allows the symptoms to be visible because the plants have a more active metabolism, however even if the symptoms recede with lower quantity of nitrogen, the virus is still present and can contaminate other plants (even in a latent stage), which is why I said that factors such as nutrition doesnt really have effect on the overall presence of virus or not, at most it just makes their presence visible, but is not directly responsible of their prevalence in collection (there I think that hygiene practices and avoidance of transmission factors such as mites and aphids are more important)

As I said in another pleione group, I think the main reason why we see so many plants with virus nowadays is not that they have become more common, but simply that those have been around for years in seemingly healthy plants and are just now starting to show because the plants are stressed by unusual weather patterns.

Taking that into account, the only way to be sure to have a healthy collection would be to systematically EM test every plant and discard all those showing up positive, but it is unfortunately much too costly, and even industrial producers could not afford that (the example of the phalaenopsis industry comes to mind, they clone plants by the millions, a big % of which are carrier of viruses in a latent stage but they can't afford to test all their mother plants. When questionned about the virus problem, their answer is always that "we have to accept some level of virus presence, systematic testing would result in producing plants too costly to be affordable by most of people").

Considering the prevalence of viruses, the fact they can have multiple hosts (one of my pleione showed mozaic symptoms after have spent time in the cucumber greenhouse, might be a coincidence but...) and that they are unbiquitous in the environment, even having proven uncontaminated stocks doesnt preclude they will remain so. With all that in mind, perhaps we indeed have to accept that there will always be virus present, and we should search a way to keep them from expressing rather than trying at all cost to avoid them which seems a lost fight.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: johnw on September 03, 2017, 03:36:37 PM
Julien - Agree fully with what you say.  The only Nerines we've seen that exhibit virus in the form of mis-shapen flowers and which do not respond to nitrogen witholding in any way are 'Miss  Frances Clark' and 'Mother of Pearl'.  One wonders if their pollen is infected.

john
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: monocotman on September 05, 2017, 11:01:36 AM
Another reason for virus to be prevalent is that the main form of propagation is vegetative.
Many of the plants sold are individual clones.
Once a plant is infected there is plenty of opportunity for it to be passed round to other growers.
They never go through a 'clean up' phase through seed propagation.
We have seen this in other species - cannas come to mind,

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: sjusovare on September 05, 2017, 08:24:59 PM
That doesnt really explain why whole collections get infected in really few time, and why even plants bought from professional suppliers which were raised as seedlings are also concerned.
I agree, an infected plant can be propagated and passed around, but I think the problem is deeper than that since it's not only one specific clone (though Zeus Weinstein is known to be highly virosed) but I've seen in lots of different plants, no matter the supplier.
By the way, there is no such thing as a "clean up" through seeds, despite the common assumption, seeds are not virus free, some virus are kept out, but others like the common potyvirus does infect the seeds as well (and even the meristem), and producing seeds is also in itself a risk to contaminate the mother plant via the pollen of the the other, especially since there is no way to know which plant is infected before it shows symptoms.
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Paul Cumbleton on October 06, 2017, 04:44:42 PM
Though I said I'm stopping growing Peiones, I will be retaining just a very few and many of these will be the autumn/winter flowering types. These have been grown separately from the rest of the collection for much of their lives and as yet have never shown any virus symptoms. I have shown photos before of Pleione Marmoset, one of my autumn/winter flowering hybrids (a cross between P. maculata and P. Piton). One bulb in the pan of mixed seedlings of these is flowering for the first time and has turned out to be especially good. The flowers are are about half as large again as the other clones that have flowered, and it has a large open lip and broad petals compared to them. Picture below.

Paul
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: odvdveer on October 06, 2017, 08:35:21 PM
That is beautifull
I didn't know there were autumn flowering pleiones
Title: Re: Pleiones -- Paul Cumbleton's hybrids
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on October 06, 2017, 09:03:46 PM
Though I said I'm stopping growing Peiones, I will be retaining just a very few and many of these will be the autumn/winter flowering types. These have been grown separately from the rest of the collection for much of their lives and as yet have never shown any virus symptoms. I have shown photos before of Pleione Marmoset, one of my autumn/winter flowering hybrids (a cross between P. maculata and P. Piton). One bulb in the pan of mixed seedlings of these is flowering for the first time and has turned out to be especially good. The flowers are are about half as large again as the other clones that have flowered, and it has a large open lip and broad petals compared to them. Picture below.

Paul

That IS an excellent flower Paul !  :o :o
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