Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: partisangardener on December 07, 2013, 06:44:05 PM
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I had this thread misplaced and try to do it in a separate thread. I think this matter is important enough.
So this is a new start and I hope you will forgive me me mistakes.
The Germination of Galanthus species a theory.
I had by Accident in 2011 a lot of seeds from Galanthus plicatus. It was 11 of May. While on my trip to Italy I went by a garden with thousand G. plicatus and Leucojum vernum .
I had asked before and collected more than hundred ripe fruits of each. During the two weeks trip, I kept them in a plastic bag with some moss. Some of the fruits started to rot and so I washed these seeds and opened the remainder. Added new moss and some sand.
When I came home there was a lot to do, and so I added some garden soil and some perlite. Equal parts to the sand. Put some gravel and a gaze in a pot for drainage and gave the mixture seeds and substrate in this pot. I did the same with the leucojum seeds.
I buried these pots in the ground near some orchids which needed regular watering and shade. So they never dried out.
At the end of summer I remembered this seeds and started to fill my drainage routine and some substrate in a Styrofoam box, for each.
When I turned the pots over (about the End of the summer September maybe) I was
in for a surprise.
The complete sets of seeds had already germinated. (Both species)
They had formed a short germination tube and at he end a round little bulb, with several roots each. The roots intertwined very much and some tubes were grown through the gaze. It was a mess. Leucojum did the same.
Germination seemed 100 % I saw none without bulb. Maybe some seeds had rotted, I didn’t count them before.
There were several clumps sticking very much together. These I stretched somewhat without too much damage. Of course the ones grown through the gaze got broken. Afterwards they were covered with two three centimetres of substrate.
These boxes were buried to the rim in my garden. In this warm January they looked afterwards like grass.
Then came frost and snow. The snow disappeared. Still looking very good.
Then heavy frost without snow. -20 for several weeks. After this, he first success was destroyed . All bulbs of both species were slush. Some of the leafs looked still good for a few days.
When I wrote this somewhere in the forum I met disbelief.
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So I tried this year to document it. The set was about 50 seeds of G.plicatus from may own mother plants. And very few of G. elwesii an G. nivalis. I put them in plastic-bags with life Sphagnum. Placed them in my studio in a dark corner under a table.
Temperature at themoment a few centigrades obove zero now, October it was quite warm more than 20.
They did a long time nothing. At the end of October (I only checked once a week or so) I discovered the first germination with G.plicatus.
The germination tube was as thick (about)as last time but longer. Quite late according to last time. Temperature was inside not that variable as outside (night /day) maybe this was the reason or the acidic Sphagnum. The few nivalis and elwesii hadn’t moved at all jet.
At the 18 of November the first germination was discovered in the bag with elwesii and nivalis.
At the 14. of December I found the first leaf in some of the older seedlings (G. plicatus) the mother plants in the garden showed some leafs too.
Before I saw only seedlings in late Autumn or winter when I was digging in the garden.
As far as my experiment goes I assume there is no need for a cold period to germinate Galanthus seeds.
They will probably germinate all after they are kept in a moist substrate in a protected place outside. Dry periods will delay the germination and maybe too little temperature variation. This will also produce somewhat lower germination, as is usual for many other species.
I would keep this seeds in a bag with moist substrate for exchange purpose. Like many other spring geophytes.
The germination seems to have a timer (until germination inhibitors within the seed are metabolised ) which runs faster with natural temperature modus, that a bulb is forming before the first leaf emerges out of it. Delayed hypogeal germination is the term I believe.
This is of course a theory for which I have some observations I assume.
All the pictures I have seen fit into this pattern, but we will see. Next year (I hope)
I will have enough seeds for a better experiment and I will count the seeds exactly at the start.
I believe someone of you will try too.
These pictures are from different seedlings becaus my camera is not fully understood by me and quite old.
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Axel's previous notes on this : http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10074.msg267775#msg267775 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10074.msg267775#msg267775)
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=280.msg286404#msg286404 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=280.msg286404#msg286404)
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Thank you Maggi :D
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This is very interesting, thank you. :)
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Full-sized snowdrop bulbs will put down roots from August onwards (in UK conditions) so you might expect seed germination at a similar time. The seed would have been set the previous spring so if a cold period was required before germination it would delay germination by a year. I cannot see any benefit in that. Here on the forum, Martin Baxendale must be amongst the most experienced in growing snowdrops from seed.
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Here on the forum, Martin Baxendale must be amongst the most experienced in growing snowdrops from seed.
I've never experimented with germinating seeds in moist bags etc so I can't really add much to this discussion. I always sow in pots of well-drained compost as soon as the seed is ripe and never let the pots dry out completely until leaves appear. I don't therefore know exactly when germination starts, only when leaves start to appear - from late autumn through to spring.
I've always worked on the theory that the seeds need a long warm and moist (never bone dry) period during summer followed by a cool period in late autumn/early winter to germinate.
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There is no cold spell required for germination, as far my experiments go. I used only fresh seed which germinates the same year if treated proper. I will try it next time outside in pots and start looking during August.
I don't recommend putting them into a bag, this was only for documentation.
So Martins method is the best in my opinion.
My investigation in this matter was because of very regular mentioning of poor germination because of not enough cold in the winter. This can´t be in my opinion
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I found the best collecting time for the fruits is when they are going from bright green to somewhat yellowish before they open naturally. Slugs like to eat in my garden conditions the seeds out of the ripening fruit when it is still green.
If this danger is too great at a place I harvest even when they start to sink to the ground. Then keep them in a place without sun but much light outside with protection against slugs. I harvest still good looking seeds then.
They seem to ripen without connection to the plant if enough moisture and light is provided for.
In one case I had even some snowdrop flowers from a market. I pollinated one exceptionally big flower with four leafs in the vase. It grew a seed pot inside my studio. Several others did so too.
The light seemed too poor for me and some stems started to rot. So I kept them outside on the ground most of the Pod exposed to the light.
The big pod grew one heavy good-looking seed. This was before my discovery, so I put it in the ground between other snowdrops. Lost track oft it and I don't know if it really germinated.
I don't recommend it to do it by purpose but if you cut a seed pot by accident from the mother plant long before it is ripe, don't discard it. You will probably get some viable seeds by treating it in the above mentioned way. And please tell us if it really worked. Galanthus is still good for some surprises. ;)
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My general observation over the years has been that I tend to get good germination during a cold and frosty autumn/winter and poor germination during a warm autumn/winter with few frosts. Of course there could be other factors involved (maybe I let pots of seeds dry out more in one year than another) and I haven't done any proper experimentation so it is just a general observation.
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When germination occurs during late summer the weather in the following winter cant be the explanation for good or bad germination. That's the reason why I did it in bags after my first discovery. None had experienced frost at all before germination, only a few month warm period after ripening under moist conditions.
Germination started even there at temperature minima of about 15 centigrade indoor.
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When germination occurs during late summer the weather in the following winter cant be the explanation for good or bad germination. That's the reason why I did it in bags after my first discovery. None had experienced frost at all before germination, only a few month warm period after ripening under moist conditions.
Germination started even there at temperature minima of about 15 centigrade indoor.
Perhaps constant unvarying warm moisture in a bag induces germination that would not usually happen in the soil or in pots of compost. Maybe the constant warm moisture in a bag provides the ideal conditions for immediate germination without a cold spell. And perhaps if seeds do not get that constant warm moisture then immediate germination does not happen, and the seeds then require a cold spell of weather to germinate.
In other words, if conditions are ideal (warm and constantly moist) this tells the seed it is okay to germinate during summer as there is enough constant moisture for a seedling bulb to grow. But if there is not constant moisture then that tells the seed it is not yet safe to germinate, and the seed waits until after a cold spell (winter) so that it then germinates in the moist conditions of the following spring.
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I agree, insofar different condition do change germination habit, as the differences even between two different years show.
But we have to consider that the first accidental experiment outside in a pot resulted in much earlier germination.
About when the leafs appear above ground is another thing. In the bags the seedlings are exposed to some light and this condition will not show natural behavior in respect of appearance of leaf above ground during the germination. I expect it will be somewhat the same with the adult ones.
With other species with delayed hypogeal germination there is often a cold spell for some time necessary to break the dormancy of a bulb. With C.plicatus is it, if at all, very short and not below 5 centigrade plus. But this is maybe due to the artificial conditions.
I don't recall very early leafs the first time. The bulbs where then more round and at least 4 weeks earlier.
I expect there is a lot variation even individually related to environmental conditions.
Plastic bags inside is not as successful as moist outside in the ground (pot or not) it prolonged the germination at least this time.
I hope observation and experiment will lead to more new plants for everyone. I would never have got into this without the first accidental experiment. I found before in my garden the casual the seedling stages other user showed in this forum.
I did never occurred to me before, that germination could start already n the summer.
I am not a professional galantophile an alas not even British, sorry.
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Axel, you have my admiration for being able to discuss these matters in English. :)
Many bulb seeds will germinate at the time when the parent plants are coming into growth - they may not show much above ground for some time after that - but the process begins then - this is why Ian always suggests watering pots of seed at the same time as pots of bulbs are watered - and for those plants with almost permanent roots ( like Crocus pelistericus for instance) or those which like some galanthus, come early into root growth, then early germination might be expected even in August.
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just an update how the seedlings from this post look like now.
This year was the best fruiting with my snowdrops. Plenty material for experiments.
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A very interesting discussion, and thank you for taking the time to explain it to us (in very understandable English!)
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Today, I have collected seedpods from some galanthus species. G.woronowii is missing. In case somebody has fruiting G. woronowii, or some species I have not mentioned I would be grateful if he would try my experiment and show the results here.
The paper label with the species name is 10 x 10 cm
I will pott them after some days when the seeds have matured.
Fist some gaze and then a layer sand (2cm). Another layer of 2 cm garden soil with some sand. Then the seeds and a cover with another 5 cm of the former mixture. This pots will be set in some shady place in the ground and watered when they are getting too dry. From July on I will check them regularly
The identification of G.gracilis is based on the following features: Flowers like elwesii but mostly smaller. Twisted leafs and generally smaller seed pods and leafs (colour same as elwesii). Maybe doubtful.
It is maybe interesting enough to pin this topic
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Good idea, Axel - I will pin the topic.
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Why pick the pods now when they are still developing?
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Slugs and other animals have already eaten a third of the seedpods by now (slugs eat holes into the fruit and empty them chamber by chamber). Harvesting much earlier have produced viable seeds before . At this stage there are the seeds already developed. Only the colour is very light and at this stage delicious for slugs. It has started to get wet by now.
The biggest seedpod of G. plicathus at the top of the picture was already emptied by two third from a slug. I have found very often slugs while the were feasting on fresh white seeds of Galanthus.
Here are ripe seeds still fresh form seedpods harvested 10 days ago. The seedpods have been dark green when I was visiting a distant garden. Species is G.elwesii.
A lot of good looking seed pods are empty they turn yellow more early and are spongy to the touch. They were sterile from the beginning.
About a third of very big seed pods have disappeared in my garden within the last week. I think a mouse ore some other animal has gathered them. They were the more exposed ones.
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Hi There,
I’ve queried, on this forum before, about whether my Sam Arnotts are the real thing. This year they have set some seed pods. Not the usual empty ones. Since I’ve read that SA is sterile, does this prove that mine isn’t SA?
Also… my Mrs Macnamara has produced a pod. I had read that she is triploid, so I was expecting her to be sterile too.
Tim DH
PS Apologies for the rough cut on my 10cm square!
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Yes I've had seed set on both of these too this year.
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If you think the seeds need a longer time to develop you might try my regime.
I keep them with enough light in damp peat. The picture will show how it is done. If the flower had effective pollination it will sometimes even grow short after this event.
The little yellow one is a fruit of Sandersii group X Viridapice. Probably only one seed inside. Still not yet ripe after all this weeks.
Such a small fruit would have died otherwise.
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Hi Ashley,
My ‘Sam Arnott’ was bought for me.. 15 years ago, from (I guess) a general nursery.. If it isn’t actually ‘Sam Arnott‘, then I suppose quite a few other people have got ‘Sam Isnot’ too! it’s a good do-er, and I’ve given away about 100 bulbs myself! I was more interested in the pod than the actual seed.
Mrs Macnamara is a different matter! That pod ‘spilt the beans’ yesterday. If she is triploid I would have expected few seeds since most gametes should have failed/aborted at meiosis. The hope would be that it throws a few unreduced gametes, which, when combined with (normal) haploid pollen might give fertile tetraploids.
Seeing a full pod of seed would suggest that she isn’t triploid… (Or, possibly, that my MrsM isn’t!!) But there is always a chance that, with this pod, I just got lucky
Tim DH
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Very beautiful.
I hope you will get a lot of new plants.
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That is my setup with the fruits of G.plicatus. The other species look similar but are not jet ripe.
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Today was potting time.
Most of the species were ripe. Only G.nivalis had a lot of still unripe pods.
I put two third of garden soil mixed with some Seramis in a big pot. Onto this layer the ripe seeds. Cover with 2 cm of the same mixture. The still not ripe fruits on top. I will mix it into the upper layer within the next two weeks.
The pots are kept in the shade under a pear tree.
The first time i kept fruits of Galanthus in a plastic bag. Some mold appeared on quite a lot of seeds because of the rotting flesh covering the seeds. It did no harm.
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Just an update.
End of August I observed first germination in G.elwesii.
Now after my vacation I checked in all the pots.
For this purpose i dug with a soupspoon equal portions out of the pot, just on spoonful.
The first was G. nivalis germination just starting only one with a long root.
the second was the pot with elwesii good germination about 50 % with long roots.
third was G.plicathus nearly all have germinated but no bulb jet.
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There is an interesting article on germination here;
http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/03/08/aob.mct051.full (http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/03/08/aob.mct051.full)
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Hi what does a young galanthus seedling look like above the compost? The reason I'm asking is that I sowed some g. Transcausicus seeds a while ago and something that looks like grass is starting to appear.
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That would be right, John. Those babies are all grass-like - good reason to keep careless weeders away from your seed pots!
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Should I leave it outside Maggi or bring it indoors
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We've got a cold glass house, John and that is where we'd take the germinating snowdrops- our winter weather is so grotty and it is easier to protect them from slugs . They don't need any heat - just not to be completely frozen - so no need to fetch them into the house or a heated greenhouse. Have you got "cold glass" as we call it?
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Yeah I know what you mean Maggi, but no I haven't. I need to keep my greenhouse frost free so I heat it. I have a porch in the house that will do the job, it's unheated and frost free. I'll put the pot in there, thanks for the advice Maggi.
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The update of Germination of different species. G. nivalis was latest but very simultaneously
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For a conclusion I have drawn this germination pattern.
At first a tube which forms the later bulb, secondly this grows first root and expands somewhat. In the last stages a first leaf emerges. All this will happen in the year of seed ripening. The first stages before frost happens.
Only very few had several roots in this aspect my picture is wrong. Mainly one root which grew longer in the process
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My theory with Galanthus Germination is now such:
Fresh seed sown at once will germinate in late summer/autumn near 100 %
Dried seed will acquire inhibition of germination and will germinate after a cold spell with a lesser percentage, partly after another year, partly not at all. I know such cases for example with Pulsatilla species.
Maybe in the latter case GA3 might be helpful?
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Thanks for sharing these thoughts and pictures with us Axel.
Very interesting.
Tim DH
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Those are some excellent observations , thanks for sharing
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I would have resisted knocking out those seedlings
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I would have resisted knocking out those seedlings
But how would Axel be able to make the study and report on his finding if he did not do that? It's an experiment.
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I put them gently back and hope most will survive. I must admit that it was always a small portion of each pot I sacrificed for science. :P
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Sometimes things have to be sacrificed for science . Thank you for the experiment
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Hi Emma did your boss manage to get hold of any seeds of trojanus?
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Mmm I don't think they have ordered them yet .....I will start reminding them daily till they do ha ha or I will go get petty cash and do it myself !
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He doesn't want to leave it too long or they might be gone & he'll have lost his chance.
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My theory with Galanthus Germination is now such:
Fresh seed sown at once will germinate in late summer/autumn near 100 %
Dried seed will acquire inhibition of germination and will germinate after a cold spell with a lesser percentage, partly after another year, partly not at all. I know such cases for example with Pulsatilla species.
Maybe in the latter case GA3 might be helpful?
Thank you, Axel, for your keen observations and documentation. Very helpful to me in understanding what to expect going forward as I get further into the fray of hybridizing and seed growing. 8) Rick
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This article by David Garner may be of interest, even though not about galanthus directly.....
"Scientists at the University of York have played a key role in new research into the way 'mother' plants use their memory of the seasons to teach their seeds the most advantageous time to germinate."
http://phys.org/news/2014-12-seeds-recognise-seasons.html (http://phys.org/news/2014-12-seeds-recognise-seasons.html)
Maternal temperature history activates Flowering Locus T in fruits to control progeny dormancy according to time of year, PNAS, www.pnas.org/cgi/doi/10.1073/pnas.1412274111 (http://www.pnas.org/cgi/doi/10.1073/pnas.1412274111)
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Maggi, thank you for this post. A fascinating insight on bloom time temperature influencing seed germination pace. So many variables and interdependencies...hats off to focused and patient researchers as they peel back bit by bit these morsels that build our understanding.
Should galanthus behave similarly to Arabidopsis thaliana, seed germination should be more rapid in cases where winter bloom time temperatures were milder than the norm. And the converse would also be true, i.e. slower germination following bloom periods occurring in colder than normal temperatures.
It would fun to run a confirming experiment with snowdrops, but somewhat difficult to control all variables if running from a garden as opposed to a cold glasshouse. I am up for trying if someone else will help in identifying and designing the controls. Rick
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Do any of you know whether G. 'E.A. Bowles' is sterile? Mine had fat seed capsules last spring but no seeds in them, alas...
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Zerschneid sie und Du gehst sicher, dass es auch weiterhin poculiforme Blüten sein werden.
Please twinscale the bulbs and you will get poculiform flowers
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Stimmt! Aber mit Samen ist es lustiger ;D
True - but it's more fun with seeds!
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Do any of you know whether G. 'E.A. Bowles' is sterile? Mine had fat seed capsules last spring but no seeds in them, alas...
E. A. Bowles set seeds spontaneously in 2011. 9 seeds were sown 8 May 2011 and germination occured 17 Jan 2013 (20 months later!). I think there was more germination in 2014 because when I repotted in summer, there were 5 decent size bulbs and 2 tiny ones. I think it will be another 2 years at least before I can expect any flowering. You are right it is more fun and certainly more exciting as one does not know what to expect! It could be a huge disappointment though.
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Cyril....great to know G. 'E.A. Bowles' is fertile. Good luck growing these seedlings on and we will look forward to seeing their progress at some point.
Thank you. Rick
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Thanks for the information, Cyril! I'll try again...
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Will keep you updated.
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Thank you. Exciting...
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Do any of you know whether G. 'E.A. Bowles' is sterile? Mine had fat seed capsules last spring but no seeds in them, alas...
I sowed three pods of E.A.Bowles fresh last autumn and have so far have about 20 seedlings germinated and growing. So definitely fertile, now the long wait to flowering.
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Mine always has depauperate stamens, and does not produce pollen, but I hope for some seeds.
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I have promised to send someone abroad G.nivalis seeds, and the seed pods are now turning yellow and the first ones are splitting. The seeds are white and soft, and I was wondering that when I bought Galanthus seeds last winter they were dark and hard (and still germinated), so should I let the seeds dry before sending them, and if they turn dark when they dry? I'm afraid that the soft white seeds will start to rot or get mold during shipping.
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Some mold seemed not to have bad effects, as far as I observed. Shipping in live sphagnum is best, only with too many seeds the elaiosome will start to rot and take mold. The seed will take colour even without drying.
The inside is well developed in white seeds.
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Some mold seemed not to have bad effects, as far as I observed. Shipping in live sphagnum is best, only with too many seeds the elaiosome will start to rot and take mold. The seed will take colour even without drying.
The inside is well developed in white seeds.
Thank you! :)
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Here are some first year bulbs weighing in a 0.5grams each!
They come from a pod on ‘Mrs Macnamara‘, which I dusted with ‘Three Ships’ pollen.
Shortly after doing that I read that MrsM was a triploid, so I expected the pod to be empty.
When the pod yielded some seed, I thought: Perhaps MrsM produced some unreduced (triploid) gametes. Which would suggest the seeds are (fertile) tetraploids. (Based on an assumption that 3Ships is diploid.)
I’ve just read in the Dryad list, that Anne thinks MrsM is Tetraploid… Which would make my seedlings (sterile) triploids.
Hey ho! At least they germinated!!
Tim DH
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Coo - they sound interesting. They probably will be BIG!
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I don't recall anyone posting photos of fresh seed. It's interesting looking stuff! Here are some of mine.
This lot, open pollinated, from the cultivar I call 'Sam Isnot'.
Tim DH
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Excellent photographs Tim. I'll try to get some photographs of my first time sowing Galanthus this spring. I'm waiting for capsules to mature.
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I posted a pic of seeds from G.peshmenii here: http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4426.msg330773#msg330773 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4426.msg330773#msg330773)
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Thanks for the link Matt
They look interesting too.
Photographing on a 1mm grid is a good idea.. Only mine are all planted now.
Tim DH
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Cyril....great to know G. 'E.A. Bowles' is fertile. Good luck growing these seedlings on and we will look forward to seeing their progress at some point.
Thank you. Rick
Thanks for the information, Cyril! I'll try again...
Thank you. Exciting...
Rick and Anne, 3 years after germination, I can report some of the Galanthus E. A. Bowles seedlings are flowering for the first time but ......... what a disappointment :( All 4 flowering plants have flowers with aberrant inner segments. I suppose I was naive to expect the seedlings would turn out as good as the parent. The leaves suggest the parent plant had hybridised with G. nivalis, the bees have picked the wrong plant for the pollen! I will plant them outside in the hope they might improve when they mature but that is unlikely.
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From everything I've heard about the behaviour of immature snowdrop flowers and the obvious variability of certain varieties from year to year, is it not a bit early to dismiss these seedlings flowering for the first time, Cyril?
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Maggi, I have not exactly dismissed the seedlings, I will plant them outside and see what happened but it will be extraordinary if they turned out to be worthwhile.
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May be worth planting them together Cyril in case their are any natural back crosses, but there may also be a possibility that when the bulbs get to their optimum size their could be a difference.
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Fingers crossed Cyril! Naughty bees, or not well enough trained..
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Thanks Brian and Anne. Maybe in a few years time something better than E. A. Bowles will appear but this is more in hope that expectation.
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I spotted what I thought to be a seedling in a clump of Mrs Macnamara, so I pulled it out…
Being intrigued by what came up I then pulled a spare seedling out of one of my seed pots!
It’s curious how the seeds have apparently grown down before they started growing up.
Tim DH
(Note to self… Be more careful to remove ALL seed pods in future!)
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Quite a few types of seedlings do that, Tim - wise to have an anchor and something to feed the upward growth
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When they germinate they usually push down the young bulb first, before the leaf is growing upwards. This might give a additional push for the young bulb.
The primary bulb seems to be more frost sensitive than the older ones. I lost some hundred seedlings in a styrofoam box which froze through in February. The already grown leafs survived the frost but not for long without any bulb left.
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Slug-proofing seed pods during ripening. I tried used tea bags successfully. Dry them, cut one end off, empty the tea out, insert the seed pod, tie the end with a kitchen bag type paper and wire tie (or similar). Progress of the seed pod can be checked by undoing the tie and examining the pod. I got the idea some time ago from the SRGC Forum.
Jack
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That sounds much too difficult for my 82 year-old fingers! I use ankle socks, secured with a twist of copper wire, which helps deter slugs. But beware fine materials which are very water repellent, coarser grade material is preferable.
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Recently germinated seedlings of an Irish snowdrop G. plicathus Woodtown. In the square pot front of picture 16 seeds were planted and 14 germinated. G.Woodtown is the most reliable snowdrop I have in the garden for producing viable seed.
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Last spring I bagged snowdrop seed pods to catch the seeds. Yesterday I found one forgotten bag under Helleborus leaves where 'Wendy's Gold' grows, clearly I had missed that bag in spring, and it was partly covered with mulch.
There are four good looking seeds with two of them already growing root:).
I now potted them and I'm looking forward to seeing them grow the first leaf in spring.
I'm very happy about these seeds because this is the first time I got seeds from 'Wendy's Gold'.
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That's a nice discovery Leena. Seedlings from 'Wendy's Gold' are usually normal green plicatus but fingers crossed that you hit gold!