Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Hepatica => Topic started by: Guff on August 24, 2022, 11:03:51 PM
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When I was looking for information about growing Hepatica from seed, I found a site that says you need to use two different fertilizer routines throughout the growing season to get them growing as fast as possible. What I'm wondering is what does 2000 fold mean? Does that mean diluted x2000?
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I then went looking for fertilizer with those numbers, Question is does it have to be organic, or can it be chemicals? These are some that I found, and some I would have to use half-third strength?
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i have not come across that dilution description before for liquid fertilizer use but it probably means a 1 in 2000 dilution of a concentrated stock solution.
However this will give a very dilute concentration of NPK,
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So one Teaspoon of fertilizer, would be x 2000 Teaspoons of water, which is about 2.6 gallons
The organic is probably the best way to go.
Chemicals
FoxFarm $10
Ho Yoku $13
Organic
Seabird Guano $21
Seaweed Extract $20
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I think that is correct, just a strange way of expressing dilution rate.
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Forgot to add that the original document that you haver does not say anything about what fertilizer product to dilute, if this is the case then the final NPK values after dilution will vary with the concentrate NPK concentrations.
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Found this organic 0-4-3, Directions are 1 Tablespoon per gallon.
1 Tablespoon x2000 Tablespoons water is 7.8125 gallons.
I'm thinking 1/4 Tablespoon x 1 1/2 gallon of water or two gallons of water and call it a day............
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For balanced green growth you will need to include N in the mix.
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The site says two different fertilizer routines throughout the growing season to get them growing as fast as possible.
No nitrogen for Fall fertilizing. Goal is to feed the roots as the seeds germinate in October through Spring.
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Jeff you know I like to grow things as fast as possible. Remember my 1 year to flower Hellebore and 6 months to flower cyclamen threads? I was going to try Hepatica under lights, but I have other projects going. Maybe sometime when I have extra Hepatica seeds I will try indoors and see what happens.
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Fertilizer arrived. Ful-power is suppose to help seeds germinate and also help with nutrients uptake.
Instructions for Ful-Power vary depending on what your using it for. 1-2 Tablespoons per gallon of water
Roots HPK is 1 Tablespoon per gallon of water.
Fertilized my flowering sized plants, today. I went with 1 Tablespoon of each into two gallons of water. Also watered in the seedlings that had germinated this past Spring.
I may up the Roots HPK to 1 Tablespoons per gallon after a couple weeks. Plan on fertilizing them once a week, until the end of October.
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End of September, I will start watering in the seed bed with x2000 dilute mix of the Roots HPK and Ful-Power.
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Remember my 1 year to flower Hellebore and 6 months to flower cyclamen threads?
I searched for these and couldn't find them. When did you post them?
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I searched for these and couldn't find them. When did you post them?
Try here, Diane .....
https://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8201.msg246756#msg246756
https://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6433.msg212879#msg212879
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Thank you, Maggi.
Guff had just one seedling flower in one year. The other seedlings didn't.
I wonder if Guff has continued to have success with frequent fertilizing, and whether others have tried and succeeded.
Meantime, my current seedlings will now get regular fertilizer.
Diane
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Diane
I had threads on another garden site, which has been gone for a few years now..... I did updates every couple of weeks, from start to flower.
I only did the one year to flower Hellebore once, because I wanted to get an Aglaia looking plant. Seed was from Elizabeth Town Hellebores.
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As far as cyclamen, purpurascens is the fastest to flower, since they don't go dormant. One year I started the seeds as soon as they were ripe (July-August), and they flowered in February, six months from sowing.
I also had a thread on the Dark Purple hederifolium and I can't remember , but thinking I had flowers in a year or less from sowing.
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About fertilizing hellebore, I used to spray the leaves with half strength fertilizer mix every 4-5 days, plus the normal feeding.
My one year to flower hellebore, just to add was grown under lights(lights were on 24/7} in my cool basement from germination until flower. The same with the cyclamen.
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What a lovely hellebore flower!
Why didn't you continue with your accelerated program? Just too much time and effort for the results?
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Diane
I tend to move from one type of plant to another, then go back again at some point.... Mostly a time factor thing and space, and waiting out the time to flower.
Just an example, I haven't hybridized any daylilies in 6 years and this Summer I did some select crosses. So this winter I will have 100+ daylily seedlings growing under lights.
When I was hybridizing daylilies, I was only interested in blue eyes and Halloween themed daylilies.
Two of my best blue eyed seedlings.
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Been looking for organic water soluble fertilizer of the 10-3-3 or 8-3-3 and can't find any with those numbers. There are pellet type fertilizer that you sprinkle about your lawn grass or area with those numbers.
Probably going to go with Bat Guano and make a tea. Thinking that I would make 5 gallon batch and keep it bubbling through the week and use. Haven't decided on the amount, but thinking 1 tablespoon in 5 gallons of water would probably be ok.
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Interesting that the seedlings put down a root to pull them down to the soil. I did add some compost around the seedlings after taking the pictures.
Hopefully some of the seedlings first true leaf grow come Spring. Then I can try getting that first true leaf to grow to thumbnail in size.
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10/24/2022 Update on seedling above with the root.
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11/2/2022 Same seedling as above with the root. Looks like there is green growth coming out of the top? Roots HPK and the BioAG have made those buds grow in size.
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11/9/2022 Might do one more feeding if it warms back up next week. Starting to get cold here, mid 20's last night.
Interesting that the stem of the seed leaves flatten out as the bud gets bigger.
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11/16/2022
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Watered in the seed bed today, will continue once a week until end of October. If the weather stays decent maybe mid November+.
Decided to give my flowering plants more room to grow. Thinking they will be taking off with the fertilizing I'm doing. Past years , I just tossed down some bone meal and some organic pellet fertilizer.
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Was looking through past threads and was wondering about the root growing in my above post. The seedling above that one, doesn't have this root growing down. My question is, is it this root that decides that it's time for the first true leaf to start growing?
I know that the instructions in my first post says get the leaves as big as possible, but could it be this root growing down is what triggers, the first true leaf to grow? I'm wondering if you should make sure there is compost around the seedling if it's too far above the soil line?
Better picture of the seedling with no root growing down. I had it covered with compost, it has rained since.
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This is the picture that made me think maybe it's the root and not the size of the leaves? The leaves look to be the same size even though one is a year older
https://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17578.0;attach=678185;image
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Fertilized my flowering plants and seedlings Friday. Took the first picture Wednesday. Second picture is from today. The leaf bud has changed shape and has grown.
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Maybe the goal is to get the leaf bud as big as possible and the size of the leaves and root growing down doesn't trigger the true leaf to grow.
First I had thought the root that grew was to pull the seedling down to the soil, which is probably the case......guess I will find out come Spring.
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Finished up the bed today. Put down some bird netting to keep the leaves out and the animals from digging. Right side I have sticks to keep animals from digging up the Helleborus thibetanus seed that was planted. The raised bed is being expanded next Summer, so didn't want to mess with chicken wire this year.
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Wondering if this growth is a leaf starting to form? I had thought the first leaf comes from the bud, but maybe it doesn't? Having never really looked up close to see how Hepatica grow. It's hard trying to get an in focus picture.
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Week later 10/21/2022. Upped the Roots HPK to 1 1/2 tablespoons with 2 gallons of water last feeding.
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10/29/2022
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11/4/2022
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Seems the leaves grow from under the bud, so the growth is probably a leaf forming.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/65196/65196-h/images/fig5big.jpg
I went with the Bat Guano. Will probably add a small amount of the Roots HPK to bring up the Bat Guano potash from 1 to 3, when I start to fertilize in the Spring.
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Same seedling as the above post.
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Next week, night temps will be in the mid 20's, so I'm probably done fertilizing for this year. Will update in the Spring, when I start fertilizing with the Bat Guano.
11/17/2022
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11/23/2022
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12/3/2022
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12/10/2022
Plumped up some, will do an update in March or April. Don't think there will be much of a change until Spring.
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I wonder who crawls around in caves collecting bat guano. And how many bat caves do you have over there?
The Wikipedia article on Guano (from both seabirds and bats ) is very interesting.
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I have tried the Bat Guano on some cyclamen seedlings, and so far they are looking good. 1 teaspoon Bat Guano, 1 teaspoon Roots HPK and 1 teaspoon BioAg Ful-Power to 2 gallons of water. Probably going to use that amount with the Hepatica seedlings in the Spring.
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Seedling with the root. Upheaval pushed the root out of the soil. Covered the root back up with some compost.
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Thanksgiving day I was able to fertilize the seedlings. Temps for 4-5 days were above 40 degrees at night and the soil wasn't frozen. Just 4 days later....
11/28/2022
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12/8/2022
Seedlings are first Spring so 8-9 months old. If anyone has 8-9 months old seedlings that aren't being fertilized, post a picture, thanks. Would be interesting to see if there is any difference.
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12/29/2022
Plumped up some. Was bitter cold for 3-4 days with 50 mph wind gusts. Back up into the 50's temps. Next week is suppose to be close to 60.
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1/6/2023
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Morning
Did we ever resolve the dogwood confusion?
Regards
Jeff
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Morning
Did we ever resolve the dogwood confusion?
Regards
Jeff
I think that was a different thread (or so far back on this one that I couldn't find it).
The fruit were most likely "Cornelian Cherries" - Cornus mas
cheers
fermi
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I think that was a different thread (or so far back on this one that I couldn't find it).
The fruit were most likely "Cornelian Cherries" - Cornus mas
cheers
fermi
Indeed it was in the Tree peony thread - where fermi gave an answer too.
https://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=19087.msg429227#msg429227
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Anyone know whats eating the seed leaves? These four seedlings, their seed leaves were all eaten but one. A first true leaf on one of the seedlings was also eaten( where the arrow is pointing). I did see a horned leaf hopper on the flowering plants during the Summer and those have also been chewed in spots.
Notice the difference in the size of the buds between the seedlings. No seed leaf and they don't grow as big.
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Chewed leaves
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Small rodents?
Here accidentally introduced bank voles (Clethrionomys glareolus) do a lot of damage, especially in the colder months.
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Diane
It's interesting that she doesn't have her boots tied.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2S_qbAfUEs
Or you can collect your own......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnRxd615oKY
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Ashley, think it's some type of insect. Problaby won't be able to prevent it. I do have rose powder, that would kill the bugs when they eat, but with the fertilizing it would just wash off
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I don't know why she didn't fall out of those boots. And then, after saying how dangerous it would be to have any skin exposed in the cave, she left her eyes and her hands uncovered.
I'm glad I had a safe clean job.
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September 16th 2022 was the first day that I had started fertilizing.
This was the oldest picture I could find, that I took of this seedling
9/28/2022
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Today 12/17/2022
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Cropped
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12/29/2022
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Guff
I wouldn't concern myself with the seed leaves. You have a good growth tip.
Marc
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Marc, thanks. Spring is 2.5 months away, won't be long now.
It's been between 40-50 during the day the past few days. Suppose to be 60 tomorrow with rain.
Still growing
12/29/2022
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1/2/2023
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1/6/2023
Since the weather has been warm for a week(40-55 day time), fertilized the seedlings and seed bed Monday(1/2/2023).
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Well, it's disappointing. Ground upheaval and ice crystals popped these seedling tops off. Above post, won't be able to do updates. You wouldn't believe how many seedlings of other plants I lose each year because of this......
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I never had this!
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I think it's caused by rain, then rapid freezing. Happens 3-5 times a winter here. Was going to post this in my cyclamen thread, but will here. These coum seedlings were planted 2 inches deep into the soil(seed sown), now they sit out of the ground on top of ice crystals that are 4 inches high up from the soil level. I had mentioned in the Cyclamen Bioag Ful-Power experiment thread, this is what happens.....very disappointing.
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An unfortunate outcome for the seedlings, after all the work put in to prepping the beds for seed sowing.
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I think it's caused by rain, then rapid freezing. Happens 3-5 times a winter here. Was going to post this in my cyclamen thread, but will here. These coum seedlings were planted 2 inches deep into the soil(seed sown), now they sit out of the ground on top of ice crystals that are 4 inches high up from the soil level. I had mentioned in the Cyclamen Bioag Ful-Power experiment thread, this is what happens.....very disappointing.
Guff,
The seedlings are likely still viable. Try planting them in a flat under lights till spring.
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I'm a beginner, but I sow very minerally, no freezing like this.
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2 inches dead leaf finely shredded on top and some netting against the wind would help a lot. They grow through it
Remove the netting after the leafs die back.
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If you have no dry leafs left, shredded straw might do the job too. Never hay because of mold risk.
I find always heaps of dry leaf in recesses behind trees or rocks in deciduous forests. Which are maybe not near by.
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Hepatica seedlings that I was taking pictures of, all have been killed by the tops being popped off.
Looks like all the seedlings in that same spot are dead as well.
Will start fertilizing new seedlings in the Spring, and try again.
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I have been following your Hepatica growing, and I'm sorry to read that they have died. Frost in the ground is very hard on plants, it can be the same here.
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Probably going to place gravel down in the Fall with the new seedlings that show. Hopefully some do, we had hardly no snow this year, until this week(6 inches or so) so the ground upheaval and ice crystals was bad. I had 5+ year old coum flowers and leaves tops popped off as well.
I'm going to try germinating seeds that I collect this year, indoors and grow through the Winter and see what happens. Will sow late Summer in fridge.
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Fertilizing payed off. Plant on the left had 8 or 9 flowers last Spring, looks to be around 25+ buds/flowers this year. Will see if I can get some pictures when more buds are open. The plant in the center might be a light pink color.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRsQBMfLA9g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhuD7ODMJR0
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38 flowers/buds from 8 or 9 last year.
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Didn't count flowers/buds, last Spring each plant had 4 or 5 flowers
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A couple seedlings in the group did survived the ground ice upheaval. Too bad I couldn't take pictures of how they grew. They must have grown from the bud that was forming. Now, I can start fertilizing. Starting off with one tablespoon Bat Guano, two gallons water. Not going to do this every couple days like the chart, will once a week.
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closeup
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Seven second Spring seedlings(1 year old) survived the ground ice upheaval. So far no issues with 1 tablespoon each of Bat Guano and Bioag Ful-Power in two gallons of water. Next watering, going to up the Bat Guano to 1 1/2 tablespoon.
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Seven second Spring seedlings(1 year old) survived the ground ice upheaval. So far no issues with 1 tablespoon each of Bat Guano and Bioag Ful-Power in two gallons of water. Next watering, going to up the Bat Guano to 1 1/2 tablespoon.
I don't want to temper your enthusiasm Guff but for me it seems a bit too much fertilizing for in ground grown Hepatica plants.
In most cases there are enough nutrients in a regular garden soil, especially for very young plants. I see the need of more fertilizing for pot grown Hepaticas.
Of course it is your choice. I don't fertilize my plants growing in the ground at all.
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Gabriela, I"m experimenting.... I want to see how fast I can get from seed to flower. As far as flowering plants, In my opinion fertilizing does makes a difference. I went form 8 or 9 flowers to 38. The past 4-5 years before fertilizing I had around that same each year.
Don't have time to mess with the metal wire today. My big plant hasn't leaved out, but there is a big difference with the amount of leaves from last year to now.
Last September
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Today
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Making some progress, so far looking good. Two or three more feedings with the Bat Guano, then switching over to the Roots HPK.
Photoshopped tape to better show size differences
5/11/2023
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5/17/2023
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5/11/2023
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5/17/2023
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Gave last feeding of Bat Guano Tuesday 5/23. Next Tuesday, start with the Roots HPK. Not sure if they will continue to grow bigger through the Summer, will update if they do.
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I fertilise my Hepaticas once in a while with slow release or weak solution with high middle (phosphorus)number and I get lots an lots of flowers. In spring the Hepaticas will be covered with hundreds of flowers.
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Think I'm going to start fertilizing with the Roots HPK, even though the chart says mid September. Took a look today and a growth point bud is growing. Amazing how fast it formed.
This picture was taken on July 27, 2023
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Today August 12, 2023
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I fertilise my Hepaticas once in a while with slow release or weak solution with high middle (phosphorus)number and I get lots an lots of flowers. In spring the Hepaticas will be covered with hundreds of flowers.
I also fertilized them this summer and will continue in the fall Kris.
For sure the flowering is encouraged this way, but there is more to the non-flowering problem of some plants. In the woods no one fertilizes them!
The drought of the past years has surely been a problem, so with much more rain this season, there should be a general improvement in all aspects, I hope.
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Gabriela,
In the forest; birds, mammals, deadfall, and autumn leaves all contribute to fertilizing them.
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Gabriela,
In the forest; birds, mammals, deadfall, and autumn leaves all contribute to fertilizing them.
Yes, the decomposing leaves provide good nutrients, and I also add in the same way a thin layer of rich soil+compost every year.
In regards with birds, mammals - at least in the woods I know, they are not present in amounts large enough to make such an impact! Especially forest small (or large) mammals species are very few in SW Ontario.
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Yes, the decomposing leaves provide good nutrients, and I also add in the same way a thin layer of rich soil+compost every year.
That is what I do, too. :)
Mine grow a lot slower than Guff's plants but I am pleased with them anyway.
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They did grow alittle since late May. Will be intersting to see with the Fall and cooler temps, if they continue to grow.
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Reposting picture from August 12, 2023
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Today
October 5, 2023
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This looks different than last Fall, flower bud?
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November 4, 2023
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Gave the seedlings and flowering plants their last feeding with Roots HPK. Not sure if the seedling on the right is dead or not. I'm going to cover the seedlings with shredded leaves for the Winter next week. Hopefully that will help with ground upheaval and ice crystals. Probably the last update until Spring 2024.
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December 8, 2023
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Seedling survived the Winter, so far. Was over 70 degrees today, removed the leaves that were placed to help with ground upheaval.
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Starting to see growth on the seedlings. Will have to get my camera out next week and see if I can get a better picture. Suppose to rain all weekend.
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Didn't notice the light blue last year, had thought it was a light pink.......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqEaGoyRDhI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyOJJWNq02s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m9yrvCVH3g