Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Pleione and Orchidaceae => Topic started by: sottych on February 19, 2012, 06:31:17 PM
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Hello everyone ,
Thank you for all your good advice after your testing , exchanges,...
Can you tell me in general and following your test , if it is better to cultivate Cypripediums in pots or in -ground , some species requires more attention , and pot it may be easier to controlled ?
What can you advise me as to cultivate species of Cypripedium in the same conditions as Reginae , with Ferns, Hostas,... , in partial shade.
Thank you everybody
Christian
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Hello Christian,
I would expect that most people would say that it is better to cultivate at least the 'easier' Cypripediums in the ground, given the correct conditions. Growing in pots gives you much more control over compost, watering and so on, but there are downsides to this: keeping the roots cool in summer, protection from frost in winter, etc. Having said all that, I grow all of my Cypripediums in pots as our garden is infested with tree roots, and I feel that we may move house at some point so I would not want to leave them behind!
You don't say where you are gardening - this would have a significant impact on any advice.
Peter
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Hello Peter ,
Thank you for your message .
I'm in FRANCE , toward the center of the country , I have already Reginae that grows well in full-earth , but I think the next Cypripediums will be grown in pots .
Thank you for your advice .
Christian
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Hi Christian,
I would guess that in central France your main challenges to growing Cypripediums in pots would be enough water in summer, and preventing overheating, also in summer. I would keep the pots/plants shaded, especially from the mid-day sun: my Cypripediums in pots receive no more than an hour of direct sunlight each day in early summer, and that seems to be enough to keep them relatively compact. Too dense shade covering can cause then to be drawn up and flop over when the heavy flowers open - I use the shade netting which is on the greenhouse to shade the plants sufficiently; they are outside on the north side of the greenhouse, and that seems to be about right for them.
They also receive water from an automated sprinkler for 15minutes twice a day during the summer in the morning and evening, this is sufficiently automated to allow me to just have to remember to feed them regularly, but they do OK if I forget to do this for a few weeks.
The other thing to consider with pots is to prevent them freezing in winter. Once the foliage has died down, my Cyps are all brought inside the alpine house and stored under the plunge beds (which are raised). They need to be lightly watered about every 6-8 weeks to prevent the compost drying out.
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Hello Peter ,
Thank you so much for your valuable advice , I would tell you my experience.
Thank you for your sympatie
Cordially
Christian
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Thought there was to much talking about Cypripediums in Marks Dactylorhiza 2012 topic.
Darren I don't have Cyp, fasciolatum but googled it and it looks very nice.
Glad to hear that others have their Cypripediums in growth. I will protect with fleece when there is a frost forecast. The last few warm days have brought the plants on but I noticed that the temperatures will be back to what we would expect for this time of year by the weekend so hopefully this might slow them down.
Peter you must have been disappointed having 58 buds on your plant and only having 5 flowers, what a sight it would have been if they all flowered. Maybe this year it will have a wonderful display.
Angie :)
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Hello everybody
Can someone explain the operation of the certificate of origin for a plant botanical protected,but multiplication and artificial culture.
As the botanical species of Cypripedium.
For the purchase of Cypripedium,some say that the invoice serves as proof.
Thank you for your answers,that I may be enlightened on this issue.
Cordially
Christian
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Hi Christian,
why don't you scan the document so that we can read it fully.
As far as cypripediums species are concerned, they are fully protected and require CITES and, depending on the country of importation, phytosanitary certificates. If you buy these plants in your country, the seller must be able to show that the plants were either laboratory grown from seed or imported under license.
If you buy the plants from ebay, it is unlikely that such information will be provided. If you are showing these plants publicly, you take the risk that someone with official powers might confiscate the plants or, worst case, prosecute you.
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Hello Maren ,
Thank you for your informations ,
It was just information ,I do not document.
But I see some stange producers provide protected plants without providing these documents !!!
(your PLEIONE F. 'Clare' is almost in bloom !)
Cordially
Christian
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Hi Christian
There is no official certificate required to sell or distribute plants protected under CITES within the EU and as long as you have proof of purchase which shows the origin of where you bought the plant (within EU), you have to take it on good faith with the seller as to where they sourced their plants from or cultivated themselves via In Vitro propagation or even set seed naturally. This applies to individuals with private websites offering to sell such items, like myself (Koolplants)with Pleione species as well as bigger nurseries within the EU like Popow Orchids (lepantes – Ebay) who also use a modern way of selling like eBay which reaches a far larger audiences than small websites ever will. There are other well known nurseries which sell on eBay but again under different usernames believing some people frown on plants bought this way. The have the last laugh as people still buy the same plants but directly from their nurseries and usually at higher prices.
Internal trade within the European Union
Internal trade in the EU includes trade within one EU Member State as well as trade between individual EU Member States. Due to the establishment of the single market in the European Union, there are no internal border controls and generally goods can be moved and traded freely within the EU. Consequently, no permits or certificates are needed for the movement of specimens of a species, although individual EU Member States have the power to restrict the holding of certain types of specimens. (From CITES).
You can usually tell if Cypripedium or Pleione have come from the wild just by looking at them. Also if you’re very lucky and your own Cyps set seed naturally and you end up with several seed grown plants how do you prove where they came from if you decide to sell them? I’ve seen pictures of bulbs shown on here before of plants bought in good faith from an EU nursery which were without doubt wild collected imports. With Pleione humilis for example if grown well it can produce multiple new bulbs and bulbils, so how do you prove these are EU cultivated and not new imports?
Like most of the EU the only people authorised to confiscate anything are either Customs or Police. Even ‘experts’ working for CITES themselves have no power of confiscation and can only advise where they believe a crime has been committed. I doubt you will ever have a plant confiscated as I’m pretty sure they have no interest in individuals who have bought a few plants of the internet when there are far bigger fish to catch.
You can always ask the seller of the plants where they came from if it’s on EBay or a private website before or after the sale if you are in doubt as to the origin but will have to take their response in good faith unless they are imported and paperwork can be shown. Even this proves nothing as you can't show the plant you are actually buying is one that was imported on that paperwork. Unfortunately even some of the biggest nurseries (Gold Medal Winners) obtain some of their stock from wild collected material but believe they are buying cultivated plants, or should I say prefer to believe they are buying cultivated plants just because they are provided with a Phytosanitary Certificate and Cites. They even sell some of these Orchids in smaller quantities to other nurseries who also then sell as cultivated stock.
I currently have over 3000 flasked Pleione including all known species and 1500 flasked Cyps as well as many other orchids and apart from taking some photo’s there is no way in five years time I could prove they were grown In Vitro.
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Hello KILLER ,
Thank you very munch for all these details, because it is still a complex ,when the only good source in the right time !
Thank you again !
I'll watch your plants for sale include purchases of Autumn,
Cordially
Christian
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Hi Christian
No more Cyp sales for a few years now as they are too small for sale or still flasked but there will be a few new hybrids in the future. Pleione sales only now for a few years and many of Paul Cumbletons hybrids.
All the best
David
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That's just not good enough David
I've been waiting for your 2012 listings >:(
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Cyps. are ready to flower.
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You're 2-3 weeks ahead of me Michael.
I assume that that is Cyp formosanum?
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Yes.
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This one survived the onslaught in my pleione house. C. formosanum is the only cypripedium I grow indoors. It's very early and although perfectly hardy, the flowers don't like a sudden frost.
Just realised, this is in the wrong topic, should be in Cypripedium 2012. Sorry.
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Maren,
lovely formosanum. A good sized plant.
I lost mine in the winter of 2010/11.
Must get another,
David
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Maren very nice,I see one won at the Kent show,must be warm down there mine is only 2cms out of the ground
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If you are showing these plants publicly, you take the risk that someone with official powers might confiscate the plants or, worst case, prosecute you.
I assume it depends upon the country if you get into trouble but what you say is not quite reasonable.
I grow the same Cypripedium reginae clone since the mid sixties and it has been divided and moved a few times since then. How the (Censored ;D) can anyone be required to show proof of purchase?
In my country I am not required to keep ANY records for more than ten years.
The normal legal doctrine is that the prosecutor must prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. The citizen is not required to prove anything he can simply say: "not guilty".
Cheers
Göte
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Hello Göte,
that used to be the same situation here, "innocent until proven guilty", but not everyone follows this principle. I have seen a number of plants being confiscated at shows (not mine, I hasten to add), because people did not have the expected paperwork. The plants are invariably put into some kind of holding place, where nobody looks after them properly and they die. So much for conservation. :(
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Maren
Confiscated by who? The only people who have the power to confiscate anything are the police or customs. Even CITES/DEFRA require either one of them to be there when items are confiscated as they have no arrest or confiscation powers themselves. They also have to have reasonable grounds or evidence before confiscating anything.
Are you saying you have seen the police or customs at shows removing items from people? If not who took them? As far as I'm aware there are no other legal bodies who have the authority to take anything. Even trading standards need one or the other there when carrying out raids.
CITES, DEFRA etc only act as advisory bodies to Customs or the Police.
If you grow 'Orchids' from seed what paperwork can you show or are required to hold? None.
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Indeed, it happened last year at the London Orchid show when a couple of young women, exhibitors from Taiwan, had quite a few boxes of plants taken away. Their stand backed on to mine, so I was well aware of the upset caused.
It came about because a lot of foreign nurseries label species grown from seed in their labs as "hybrids". This is of course factually incorrect, but it is done because in the country of origin, nurseries are not allowed to call anything a "species" unless it comes from the wild. The poor girls thought all their paperwork was in order.
I also found this naming anomaly in orchids sourced from Belgium, a misuse of language/translation, which causes problems. For instance, I purchased a number of Dactylorhiza praetermissa from Belgium, all laboratory raised, and the label said: Hybrid.
You could say, it's their own fault, why don't they use proper English. I guess it's a question of education.
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Sorry Maren, can you please tell me who actually confiscated the plants? Police/Customs? All interesting stuff being an ex TV investigative journalist myself ;) Seems odd that plants that had already passed through Customs on entry to the UK with paperwork would be pulled up again by Customs for having incorrect paperwork, makes them look pretty stupid.
I'm sure there are plenty of plants shown in shows that are from the wild and lets be honest we all know there are. Buy a few seedlings and then replace them a few years later with imports, who is going to say they were not the original seedlings that have been grown on. In fact there was someone doing this on a large scale and selling on the internet until March 2011 when someone pointed out they were being investigated by CITES. Strange they are not selling this year or perhaps the seedlings have not done so well last year!!!
Some of the biggest Orchid nurseries just across the channel have been buying from Chen Yi and others in large quantities for many years and are quite open about it when talking to some people who know them well (members of this forum). Nursery names withheld as they also supply some UK smaller nurseries that may not know this or simply do not ask/care as long as they are seen to be buying from a legit source. It could get very messy and complicated for all concerned and cause damage to innocent parties as well as the guilty if they were named. So there are many plants being shown bought in the UK and just across the channel that are illegal imports or descendants which are shown in shows.
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Hi David,
I appreciate your interest, but I did not ask the people to identify themselves. I just felt sorry for the girls.
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I can almost understand that there might be a problem for traders at these international shows if their paperwork is "fudged" or incomplete, and I know that one Peterborugh exhibitor from the far east had major problems prior to last year's show, and none of thier plants passed through customs until after the show, but as an amateur who shows regularly what worries me about this is that I barely have a scrap of paper to show the origin of any of my plants, even those purchased from contributers to this forum. I purchase on trust, and am very careful who I buy from, and that ought to be enough. For all the abuse that Ebay recieves, rightly or wrongly, at least I have my reciepts, or a computer record to show where the plant came from, albeit only one step back down the chain. But when you purchase at an orchid show you are very rarely even given a reciept of any form. Indeed I returned from last week's London Orchid Show with bags full of plants and as cash now seems to be the payment of choice for most dealers I did not have a single piece of paper, except Maren's pleione culture sheet! But my bags contained species pleiones, cypripediums, dactylorhizas, all suposedly legit. Must they now remain hidden from view, never to attend a show. And before the tropical growers start crowing too much, surely the same logic applies to all species, not just cypripediums, not even just orchids? So is it hybrids only from now on at shows, and who are these "plant police" to know which is which?
Maybe I'm over reacting, wouldn't be the first time, but this is potentially serious
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Maren, Never mind just interested as I would have thought it would have been all over the show if police or customs had raided someone.
Hi Steve
I'm sure you will be fine and you bought everything on good faith but as you say you have no receipts to prove where you bought it from unlike buying online or off a reputable seller on eBay. Knowing Customs and Revenue they would be more interested in 'Cash' sales with no receipts information than where the plants came from.
To be honest I don't think most of the sellers know where the plants actually come from themselves. For example some Pleione are imported with correct paperwork (CITES and Phyto) from India by nursery 'A' and sold to nursery 'B' 'C' 'D', etc but are in fact not cultivated but wild collected with the bribe given to the correct person in India (the same 'legitimate' Indian nursery will ship privately without any paperwork!) So in fact you are all guilty of buying plants taken from the wild but buying them in good faith and as such not committing a direct crime.
It's all nonsense anyway as if plant with paperwork dies and you replace with an illegal imported one who can say it's not the one on the paperwork unless it's DNA tested. Certainly not some pen pusher in a show who has no authority to confiscate anything.
If you want to show your plants, carry on.
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I was told about this forum topic at London. As usual various issues have got mixed up. I was told that Red Book European orchids could not be sold even with paperwork so I put my BOGA hat on and phoned the CITES office. As a nurseryman I could be asked to provide provenance regarding species such as c calceolus but CITES and DEFRA do not have the time or resources to check every plant at a show (especially an amateur show). Yes, customs do get hot under the collar when plants are brought in to major shows from outside Europe with the wrong paperwork. The issue at Peterborough was confusion caused by the courier who was bringing the plants from Germany where they had been legally imported and the boxes ended up in customs . DEFRA do have staff who visit big shows to check what we are selling. I have been inspected twice at Peterborough (without any questions being asked) and twice at RHS Tatton where the inspector was interested in where my native stock came from. Members need not be afraid to exhibit their plants. Beware customs impounding plants from China. It has happened this year.
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Thanks Jeff I agree with you. I was never in any doubt about the fact DEFRA would attend shows and ask questions but merely pointing out they have no power of confiscation which can only be carried out by the police or customs under advice from them (my father worked for DEFRA until retirement and never carried a badge or gun). It's one of the things they are there for and it's DEFRA that would advise CITES if they had anything they believed should be followed up on as CITES don't have the time or structure to visit plant shows and people get confused as to what they really do. As a nurseryman you are held responsible for the plants you sell and rightly so but as you say private individuals need not worry about showing plants.
As for China, I'm sure they are stopping packages on a daily basis from China/Thailand, some get through and some don't and that's why most of the adverts state its down to you and they will not be held responsible for items lost by customs. I do know someone who recently had a couple of plants stopped and was given a letter of warning being her first time but was told next time there would be a fine (that's not scaremongering but the truth and it was North America they were coming in from). What I find hilarious though is some buyers on Ebay that have bought from outside the EU who then leave feedback for everyone to see. No names mentioned as I know of few of you will be reading this and may want to think twice before leaving feedback for those Cyps, Pleione and other Orchids you keep buying as you are leaving yourself wide open for prosecution ;)
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In my part of the world we rarely have shows mith medals and prices and all that so I am completely in the dark.
However, I have always believed that plants shown were supposed to show the growers skill.
If I were to buy seven Corydlis corms of some fancy type from Janis put and put them in a pot, they would give a really beautiful show in the spring but the growing skill would be Janis' not mine.
Pleiones could be a similar case.
I would have thought that a Cyp needed to be well established to qualify for a show. If it is well established it is not possible to tell wether this is a heirloom from great-grandfathers head gardener or an illegal import.
If a plantis openly and obviously imported I can understand that it needs paperwork but what are the actual legal requirements. I mean what is in the law book?
Göte
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If I were to buy seven Corydlis corms of some fancy type from Janis put and put them in a pot, they would give a really beautiful show in the spring but the growing skill would be Janis' not mine.
An excellent point. I frequently see pans of Pleione species at shows which are clearly a number of different clones. Unless the exhibitor has raised them from seed then all they are exhibiting is the fact they can afford to buy 20+ bulbs of a rare species. Skill does not enter into it unless they come back with the same pan several years later having not killed them in the meantime. I've more respect for a smaller pan which the exhibitor has bulked up over many years from a single bulb.
The shows have a rule which says the plant must have been grown by the exhibitor for at least 6 months. Easy to buy Corydalis from Janis in August and show them in April without breaking the rules. At least Pleione (usually shipped in December/January) are not likely to be shown the following spring without breaking the rules - so the exhibitor should have had them for a full growing season at least.
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You have hit on an old hobbyhorse of mine, and one of the reasons I stopped showing. People with more money than sense showing nice big pot-full of Pleiones ( which at the time were about £8 each.) fresh from the supplier and popped in a pot with a bit of moss. They would then parade round the hall with a smile on their their like a Cheshire cat boasting about having won a first prize ??? Enough said. :-X :-X
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You have hit on an old hobbyhorse of mine, and one of the reasons I stopped showing. People with more money than sense showing nice big pot-full of Pleiones ( which at the time were about £8 each.) fresh from the supplier and popped in a pot with a bit of moss. They would then parade round the hall with a smile on their their like a Cheshire cat boasting about having won a first prize ??? Enough said. :-X :-X
Never showing any plants at a show and never will for exactly those reasons. I could grow from seed and take years to get enough to make a decent display only to see someone buy FS bulbs, pot in some bark and win and that goes for most plants.
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But in many ways you are missing the point of showing, at least in my sphere, local orchid group shows. We do it to
1. stimulate interest in growing orchids.
2. to raise awareness of our society and hopefully get a few new members,
3. to raise money for our society. We charge only £1 to enter, then make our money on refreshments, tombola etc. This makes a massive contribution to our finances, pays for our speakers, hall etc.
4. to meet people, friends and total strangers. Over the next month I have four shows. The same people will exhibit at most of them, but many total strangers will come to visit, some for advice, some with a passion for orchids, others who know nothing but might leave with the thought of growing a few. Our friends at other societies support us and we support them. Friends being the important word.
Sure some shows have a competitve edge, only rosettes and the occasional trophy at our level and whilst some people are bothered about winning I believe that equally as many could not care less.
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But in many ways you are missing the point of showing, at least in my sphere, local orchid group shows. We do it to
1. stimulate interest in growing orchids.
2. to raise awareness of our society and hopefully get a few new members,
3. to raise money for our society. We charge only £1 to enter, then make our money on refreshments, tombola etc. This makes a massive contribution to our finances, pays for our speakers, hall etc.
4. to meet people, friends and total strangers. Over the next month I have four shows. The same people will exhibit at most of them, but many total strangers will come to visit, some for advice, some with a passion for orchids, others who know nothing but might leave with the thought of growing a few.
Sure some shows have a competitve edge, only rosettes and the occasional trophy at our level and whilst some people are bothered about winning I believe that equally as many could not care less.
Good points, I'll go along with that Steve at local level and it's all a bit of fun and should not be taken too seriously and as you say its all the better if it attracts more people.
Problem is there are always going to be competitive people that winning means everything to which I personally think ruins it for everyone as that's when the bitching begins.
Maybe the six months of cultivation (if that is what the rules are) should be extended to at least 12 months and also have different sections for plants you have grown as opposed to plants being shown as I can see some people getting very disappointed seeing someone win with 'shop' bought plants when they have been trying to cultivate them for years.
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I believe that equally as many could not care less.
Exactly my attitude at the moment, I am quite content to show pics of my plants here on the forum and let the glory hunters buy their medals at shows if they wish.
I know that their are some good growers that grow and show their own plants, I am not aiming to any of my remarks at them. Just the few that buy their red cards. :(
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I dont think people show for fun but believe it's all about medals, medals and more medals. I've seen people look what their plants are up against and reenter the plant in a different class where there is more chance of a first.
I dont show anymore.
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I agree with Steve's points and I do show for fun, and because I get a buzz when people express interest in my plants, and to aid recruitment to the hobby. Also, I confess, because I love annoying the bun-growing purists by benching south african bulbs etc...
When I show Pleione it is always a potfull I bulked up from one pseudobulb. Same goes for bulbs - either they are seed raised or veg props from a single original. It does annoy me a little if pipped by someone with a clearly 'purchased' potfull.
Anyway - this has gone way off topic.
I had to move a couple of cyps into the greenhouse last night - growth is well advanced on fasciolatum and I fear we may get a frost with these clear nights. I regularly lose the flowers from this species to frost.
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I believe that most orchid societies have a '12 month' rule before you are allowed to show.
It was certainly the case for me in a previous society.
I would have thought that 'one growing season' ought to be the least amount of time you should have a plant
before showing,
Regards,
David