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Author Topic: Unknown Alliums  (Read 2737 times)

ozgur70

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Unknown Alliums
« on: January 31, 2010, 08:28:36 PM »
These Allium spices are from Turkey, Middle anatolia (Karaman). (1 st. one from Antalya).
Would anyone know what they are...
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TheOnionMan

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Re: Unknown Alliums
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2010, 10:07:29 PM »
These Allium spices are from Turkey, Middle anatolia (Karaman). (1 st. one from Antalya).
Would anyone know what they are...

Hello Ozgur70, interesting Allium species.  Using just flower photos to identify Alliums can be difficult, particularly to narrow it down to just one species, because some important diagnostic characteristics are not seen...e.g. bulb type, bulb coats, leaf characteristics, spathe details such as the number of "valves" it splits into, etc. Also, there are many similar looking species, so maybe we can narrow it down to a few likely possibilities.  But I'll give it a try.

The first one is definitely an Allium in the Molium section, of which there are 11 species in Turkey.  Based on locale (Antalya) I say this comes closest to either A. subhirsutum or A. neapolitanum, both cited as found in Antalya.  Both species are rather variable, but without seeing the foliage, which has long cilia along the leaf margins in A. subhirsutum, I can't say for sure which it is. 

I will look at the other ones soon and post again later on, I need to go offline for a while.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 10:10:55 PM by TheOnionMan »
Mark McDonough
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Oron Peri

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Re: Unknown Alliums
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2010, 09:50:17 AM »
Ozgur,

As Mark said, leaves are very important in order to identify many of the allium species.
 from what i can see in the photos i would say:
No 1: A. trifoliatum [syn. A. hirsutum]
No. 3: A. cardiostemon
No. 5: A. cappadocicum

As for the other two I'm not sure yet,
No 4: is similar to A. paniculatum, accept that the color seems to be too Greeny,
No 2 belongs to Section Melanocrommyum but i still have to look for it. [in this case leaves would be very helpfull]

« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 12:05:53 PM by Oron Peri »
Tivon, in the lower Galilee, north Israel.
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TheOnionMan

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Re: Unknown Alliums
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2010, 06:59:15 PM »
Ozgur,
As Mark said, leaves are very important in order to identify many of the allium species.
 from what i can see in the photos i would say:
No 1: A. trifoliatum [syn. A. hirsutum]

I don't think No. 1 is A. trifoliatum, as that species differs in several ways, my first guess is still A. subhirsutum, 2nd guess would be A. neapolitanum (Ozgur, do you remember what the leaves are like, are they hairy or ciliolate, or are they smooth?).  So, going with A. subhirsutum, here are some of the key differences with A. trifoliatum: 

trifoliatum has a fastigiate disposition to the inflorescence, whereas it is divergently spreading (patent) in subhirsutum.
trifoliatum has a red or pink midvein on each tepal, the white flowers sometimes flushed pink, whereas they are all white in subhirsutum.
trifoliatum has lanceolate tepals, they are oblong or elliptic in subhirsutum.
trifoliatum has yellowish anthers, typically they're brown in subhirsutum.

I have grown both these species, although neither is hardy here.

Interesting, in Kollmann's treatment on Allium in Flora of Turkey, there is a special note about specimens of Allium trifoliatum as found in Antalya:  "The specimens cited from Antalya resemble A. longanum Pamp. (Crete, Cyrenaica, Egypt) in their pink perianth but the outer segments are broader and shorter than the inner ones and the leaves are glabrous".  To the last comment about glabrous leaves, note that A. trifoliatum has leaves that can be sparsely hairy or glabrous.

So, I go with A. subhirsutum, and assuming the leaves are indeed ciliolate.  Haven't had a chance to investigate the others yet.  One way to narrow down some of these, in Flora of Turkey, all species are keyed to distribution maps, handy in finding out whether any given species is found in specific provences such as Karaman in Konya.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 09:30:50 PM by TheOnionMan »
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at aol.com

TheOnionMan

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Re: Unknown Alliums
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2010, 04:25:50 PM »
Ozgur,

As Mark said, leaves are very important in order to identify many of the allium species.
 from what i can see in the photos i would say:

No. 3: A. cardiostemon

To help in this ID effort, here's the URL for TÜBİVES. a Flora of Turkey Database effort that SRGC member Ibrahim made us aware of.  Using this, one can click on aa Turkish province and find out whaat species grow there.  A couple caveats please... for some species like Allium subhirsutum which is widely distributed, the database detail on the province level is missing (not yet recorded), thus some species don't show up in the species list for a partcilar province.  Also, since Karaman is a relatively new province, it has been suggested to refer to the larger province Konya from which Karaman emerged.  So, I'm using both Flora of Turkey and the TÜBİVES database.

http://turkherb.ibu.edu.tr/index.php?sayfa=200

I do not agree that No. 3 is A. cardiostemon, that species grows in Eastern Anatolia and is not found in Karaman or Konya.  I believe it is Allium lycaonicum.  The distinctive characteristic is that the filaments are actually broader than the narrower tepals, thus more conspicuous, with an ovate broadened base, which can be seen in the photo.  A. lycaonicum is found in Karaman.

Allium cardiostemon also looks different, here's a couple links to photos in the Van flora:

http://vanherbaryum.yyu.edu.tr/flora/famgenustur/li/al/ca/pages/Allium%20cardiostemon%20FISCH_%20ET%20MEY_%20%20%20_jpg.htm

http://vanherbaryum.yyu.edu.tr/flora/famgenustur/li/al/ca/pages/Allium%20cardiostemon%20FISCH_%20ET%20MEY_%20%20%20%20_jpg.htm
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at aol.com

Kovacs Pal

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Re: Unknown Alliums
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2010, 09:21:29 PM »
4.: Allium flavum ssp tauricum ?? (but it looks like a bit paler than A. flavum)
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web: http://sedum.uw.hu/

Oron Peri

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Re: Unknown Alliums
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2010, 01:36:44 AM »
Mark

First i have to apologize  for being too hasty in giving the names, without double checking, knowing there are over 180 taxa in Turkey.

I must agree with you that it isn't A. cardiostemon, which was the first to 'hit my head'.
As for the species from the first photo i have two things to add, first, A. neapolitanum to my knowledge is the only species in  the region to have a completely  triangular stem which is defiantly not seen in the photo.
Second, A. trifoliatum is often seen with white petals with no sign of reddish mid strip, this species is quite variable, in Israel for example it has three varieta that seems to be 3 different species.

The TUBIVES data base is an excellent source for information, i wonder whether it is updated regularly,
Some Allium species down here are being reported often to be seen in new  locations,  it seems that this genus has the capacity to adapt to new grounds, or that they have been growing there but never been seen before.
Turkey is a huge country, and it is almost impossible to map it completely in botanical terms.



 
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 01:51:34 AM by Oron Peri »
Tivon, in the lower Galilee, north Israel.
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TheOnionMan

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Re: Unknown Alliums
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2010, 04:50:19 AM »
As for the species from the first photo i have two things to add, first, A. neapolitanum to my knowledge is the only species in  the region to have a completely triangular stem which is defiantly not seen in the photo.

Hello Oron, I do value your input greatly, Allium taxonomy is so difficult.  In the photo, the stem is somewhat out of focus, but from what I can see, I would agree that the stem is probably not triquetrous, thus not neapolitanum.  Regarding my suggestion that the ID is A. subhirsutm (pending the leaf characteristics, if only Ozgur would fill us in with these details), you state that A. trifoliatum is often seen with white petals with no sign of reddish mid stripe.  You also mention that in Israel, there are 3 varieties if this species. 

I cited 4 differing characteristics that separate A. subhirsutum from A. trifoliatum, the tepal color is only one of the four. So, there are three diagnostic characteristics still not accounted for.  Regarding the 3 varieties of trifoliatum in Israel, I would very much like to learn about those.  I am a "student" of the genus allium, and keep an open mind, and welcome information from those in indigenous regions who know much more about the variability of plants than what is described in books and floras, and who certainly know much more than I know.  Do suggest any PDFs or links that describes those 3 varieties, I truly want to learn about them.

The taxonomy of A. subhirsutum and trifoliatum is incredibly complex, and many dozens of species names and synonyms are involved. In the TÜBİVES database, A. subhirsutum is missing for Antalya because the database reports "A. subhirsutum not found at a province level", as the data has not yet been entered into the database, so I defer to the Flora of Turkey, where indeed there are two citations for A. subhirsutum being found in Antalya.  Even so, the TUBIVES database is an excellent resource, but of course due to the enormity of the effort and its complexity, it is likely not everything is recorded yet.

So, based on the Flora of Turkey, even it its newest sense in the TUBIVES database, the white-flowered one can only be one of three species; A. trifoliatum, A. neapolitanum (we agree it is not), and A. subhirsutum.  I base my studies on three resources, Flora Europaea, Flora of Turkey, and 237-page "A Revision of the Genus Allium in Africa" by Wilde-Duyfjes, 1976.  So, it is A. trifoliatum or A. subhirsutum.

The Allium species in Antalya based on TUBIVES database are: Allium trifoliatum, neapolitanum, karacae, frigidum, pallens, sipyleum, tauricola, flavum var. tauricum, deciduum, stamineum, hirtovaginum, rupicola, sandrasicum, scorodoprasum ssp. rotundum, scorodoprasum ssp. waldsteini, sphaerocephalon ssp. sphaerocephalon, sphaerocephalon ssp. trachypus, proponticum var. parviflorum, stylosum, reuterianum, phanerantherum ssp. phanerantherum, amethystinum, guttatum ssp. sardoum, junceum ssp. junceum, junceum ssp. tridentatum, robertianum, anatolicum, nigrum, orientale.

Allium species omitted, but indeed from Antalya based on Flora of Turkey citations is A. subhirsutum.

It still looks like A. subhirsutum to me, but once again, depends of the leaf charactistics not seen here.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 02:40:04 PM by TheOnionMan »
Mark McDonough
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TheOnionMan

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Re: Unknown Alliums
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2010, 05:07:22 PM »
Curious to learn more about the variability of Allium trifoliatum, I spent some time searching for images of the species, particularly those taken in the wild.  The range of variability on this species is more than I imagined, some of the pink forms really lovely.  I suppose the variability shouldn't be that surprising, given the large and diverse distribution this species has.

Oron: I also see that in Israel, there are indeed forms without any pink or red midveins.  Jump down to the link showing a gallery of forms in Israel, some are all white and some do have colored veins.

The links down near the bottom show the subject species; trifoliatum and subhirsutum.  I also searched A. neapolitanum, where there too, there is varaiability but not as much.  After looking at all these images and recomparing descriptions, I'm sticking with A. subhirsutum.

urls for Allium trifoliatum
http://www.flowersinisrael.com/Alliumtrifoliatum_page.htm
http://www.bulbsociety.org/GALLERY_OF_THE_WORLDS_BULBS/GRAPHICS/Allium/Allium_trifoliatum/Allium_trifoliatum.html
 
from Achaea, Peloponnese (Greece)  - very pink
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+0409+1719

Manfredonia (Italy)
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+0407+0824

Italy (several good pictures)
http://www.funghiitaliani.it/index.php?showtopic=32556

Malta
http://www.maltawildplants.com/ALLI/Allium_trifoliatum.php

Israel
http://www.wildflowers.co.il/english/plant.asp?ID=1247
http://www.wildflowers.co.il/english/picture.asp?ID=5303

Israel, Haifa, Mt. Alon
http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo168925.htm

Israel, **several contributors**, some have colored midveins
Notice the more upright (fastigiate) disposition of the inflorescence.
http://igb.agri.gov.il/main/photos.pl?GENUS=Allium&SPECIES=trifoliatum

http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?query_src=photos_index&where-lifeform=any&rel-taxon=equals&where-taxon=Allium+trifoliatum

Gallery of images, A. neapolitanum, subhirsutum, trifoliatum, some stunning subvillosum
http://www.stridvall.se/flowers/gallery/Liliaceae_2?page=1

Cyprus - A. trifoliatum (large image)
http://www.stridvall.se/flowers/gallery/Liliaceae_2/715_33?full=1
Crete - Allium subhirsutum (large image)
http://www.stridvall.se/flowers/gallery/Liliaceae_2/596_11?full=1
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 05:11:02 PM by TheOnionMan »
Mark McDonough
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ozgur70

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Re: Unknown Alliums
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2010, 10:27:40 PM »
I check all my archive but I couldnt find any photos about their leaves. This year I try to take al the parts of plant. Thanks for all valuable comments.
My best regards.
Özgür
Özgür   




Turkey - Karaman

 


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