Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: Diane Whitehead on December 30, 2007, 07:29:28 PM
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I'm looking for good breeding material for my seedling programme
Martin,
What are you aiming for? Are there enough snowdrop breeders to have a separate
discussion?
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Martin I'm thinking of crossing 'Castlegar' with r-o 'Alex Duigud'
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I pay for my money transfers to England not any fees !!!
The only is you have to send the amout in Euro ....
It is not correct if you have to pay any fees inside of EU !!!
Arne : go to the website of your bank - go to "Auslandsüberweisungen" -there is all written .....
I know how to make a bank transfer and that there are no fees for me if using IBAN und BIC but the problem is the difference of the money. So there are like I said fees for the receiver.
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Hello Arne ,
With the iban there are 3 possibillities, you accept all costs, or chaire costs, or all costs are for the receiver.
If you chaire costs its the cheapest way for both to transfer money in the EU.
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Hello Arne ,
With the iban there are 3 possibillities, you accept all costs, or chaire costs, or all costs are for the receiver.
If you chaire costs its the cheapest way for both to transfer money in the EU.
These fees are so far as I know about 10 euro here in Germany and sharing the price is for sure only possible with private people and not with companies. So I think I will send money or use a credit card if possible.
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Its possible with everybody in the EU, who has a International Bank Account Number also companies. When i need spare parts for my british car, i order and pay with the iban and it costs me a few euros.
Ask your bankmanager about the exact costs. Money trafic with iban is safe and easy.
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I'm looking for good breeding material for my seedling programme
Martin,
What are you aiming for? Are there enough snowdrop breeders to have a separate
discussion?
Diane - in short, my main aim is to try to get some tetraploid seedlings so I can raise lots of strong, disease resistant large polyploid snowdrop cultivars from which to select a new generation of really good big beautiful snowdrops that will grow anywhere without cossetting. So basically, I'm where the very first daffodil breeders were about 100 years ago - with just a few barely fertile triploid cultivars to play with, hoping for a long-odds breakthrough in the form of fertile tetraploids. At the moment most of the best cultivars are virtually infertile triploids, which set virtually no seed, so you just can;t get breeding seriously. Unless you stick with small diploid snowdrops, which are less strong growing and less disease resistant than polyploids like triploids and tetraploids.
Mark, I've tried pollinating Castlegar and never got any seed. I suspect that like so many good cultivars (see above) it may be a triploid with low fertility. Having said that, no harm in having a go.
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I decided to Google "breeding Galanthus" and found one article about
a stallion named Galanthus, one Forum citation of earlier posts by Martin,
plus lots of articles about using a Galanthus Nivalis Agglutinin (GNA) Gene
to add insect resistance to various crops, like wheat and cotton.
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I decided to Google "breeding Galanthus" and found one article about
a stallion named Galanthus, one Forum citation of earlier posts by Martin,
plus lots of articles about using a Galanthus Nivalis Agglutinin (GNA) Gene
to add insect resistance to various crops, like wheat and cotton.
Diane, try Googling again in twenty years time! ;D
Mark, I forgot that 'Cotswold Farm' is a nivalis X plicatus type cultivar isn't it. I had it (and possibly still do) but it wasn't any great shakes. I wouldn't be too disappointed at not getting it. Obviously you were sent Colossus by mistake as you say.
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my main aim is to try to get some tetraploid seedlings
Martin,
The protocol for using Oryzalin for producing 4N forms of lilies seems fairly well established. Have you tried it on chipped/twin scaled bulbs to see what happens?
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I thought I should get a post in whilst it is still pre January! This photograph (actually two weeks old) shows a group of one of my favourite snowdrops, Galanthus elwesii Peter Gatehouse. I like the way the green mark on the inner petals shows through even under typical conditions when the flowers are not very open. And perhaps more importantly, this plant has always bulked-up well for me so this little clump began as three smallish bulbs three years ago. I bought Peter Gatehouse as a single bulb a few years ago and it was not very expensive. I think early-flowering snowdrops tend to be under-regarded because there is nothing to see during the main season when everyone goes off on visits to other people's snowdrop collections.
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my main aim is to try to get some tetraploid seedlings
Martin,
The protocol for using Oryzalin for producing 4N forms of lilies seems fairly well established. Have you tried it on chipped/twin scaled bulbs to see what happens?
Rob, I didn't know about this procedure for creating tetraploids. I only knew about using colchicine to induce polyploidy, which I think was found to cause other genetic abnormalities too, resulting in genetically unstable offspring.
I'm trying for the traditional breeding route of crossing triploids with each other and with diploids, in the hope of getting that rare tetraploid success.
But can you point me towards some further information about the Oryzalin process?
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I'm trying for the traditional breeding route of crossing triploids with each other and with diploids, in the hope of getting that rare tetraploid success.
I can see I need to look out for a copy of "Polyploids for Dummies" in the January sales but how do you know when you end up with a tetraploid? Would it not be simpler to screen an existing snowdrop population to find one that already exists?
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what do these ploid names mean
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It's all a question of chromosome numbers... and that is as much as I know! Luckily, there are those around here who know more!....................
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'Normal' in plants is diploid (as in animals) where the adult plant (or animal) has two sets of chromosomes. During the formation of reproductive bits the chromosome count halves, so a pollen grain has one set of chromosomes and the ovule also has one set. When the pollen meets the ovule to form a seed, their two sets join again to create a new diploid adult with two sets of chromosomes.
Triploid is where the adult plant has three sets of chromosom es, tetraploid is where the plant has four sets, hexaploid is six sets, etc.
Triploids are not uncommon in the wild. They happen where a plant makes pollen which (due to a blip) still has both sets of chromosomes. This then pollinates a normal plant ovule with one set, creating a triploid seed with three sets of chromosomes. Tetraploids are rarer as a non-reduced pollen grain with both sets of chromosomes would need to meet up with a non-reduced ovulve with both chromosomes, and many plants are self-infertile, so that means the pollen finding another plant which has had the same blip, which is far less likely.
For breeding purposes tetraploids are desirable because (like triploids) the extra chromosomes tend to make them bigger, stronger plants; but tetraploids are fully fertile while triploids are almost sterile, so you get lots more seed with tetraploids, which is what you need for breeding - obviously trying to breed with plants which produce hardly any seed is a pretty useless endeavour (except when like me you are trying to cross them to get your first tetraploids).
There have been investigations to find which snowdrops (wild and cuiltivated) are triploid and tetraploid. Many infertile triploids have been found, but virtually nothjing in the way of tetraploids.
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don`t you end up with 'Down'snowdrops!
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Thank you Martin for an excellent explanation for thickies like me. :'(
One question that springs to mind is how do you tell whether it is triploid, tetraploid etc other than resorting to (I presume) cutting them up and looking under a microscope?
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I'm attaching a general pic showing some autumn snowdrops next to the rhubarb, some colossus type top left, some atkinsii type just coming through in the foreground and maybe a couple of doubles top right.
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Thank you Martin for an excellent explanation for thickies like me. :'(
One question that springs to mind is how do you tell whether it is triploid, tetraploid etc other than resorting to (I presume) cutting them up and looking under a microscope?
Cutting them up and looking at them under a microscope is about it - or a more complicated thing called flow cytology analyses which tells you the DNA mass, from which you can deduce ploidy levels.
OR - if it's from a cross between known triploids or a known triploid onto a diploid, the resulting seedling is big, strong and healthy, with thick leaves, thick petals etc then it's most likely polyploid - and if it then won't set seed readily it's most likely a triploid, but if it sets lots of seed easily then it's quite likely a tetraploid.
For definite confirmation, though, you do need laboratory confirmation.
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Martin,
Oryzalin is considerably safer to use than cholchicine.
http://members.tripod.com/~h_syriacus/tetraploidy.htm - I'm sure that if you search you'll find newer references.
It might be worth mentioning that triploid lily hybrids can produce more seed if their partner is tetraploid. Would this be the case for snowdrop cv.s too?
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At the risk of offending Martin and noting his comments about 'Cotswold Farm' not being worth growing and also his desire to grow big strong snowdrops as with daffodils I consider that the big strong snowdrop that bears his name is not worth its place either.Last year I dug up a large patch with bulbs the size of daffodils and did'nt consider them worth passing on to anyone as they had produced so few flowers from such robust growth and I burnt them.Why anyone should be charging£6.50 or even perpetuating 'Blaxendales's Late' is beyond me.
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At the risk of offending Martin and noting his comments about 'Cotswold Farm' not being worth growing and also his desire to grow big strong snowdrops as with daffodils I consider that the big strong snowdrop that bears his name is not worth its place either.Last year I dug up a large patch with bulbs the size of daffodils and did'nt consider them worth passing on to anyone as they had produced so few flowers from such robust growth and I burnt them.Why anyone should be charging£6.50 or even perpetuating 'Blaxendales's Late' is beyond me.
I couldn't agree more. I didn't name it, and neither did anyone in my family. Baxendale's late was among various Gal. plicatus that Philip Ballard had from my mother and father's garden in the 1970s (Philip being husband of Helen Ballard of hellebore fame, both of them keen snowdrop growers).
My parents didn't rate it as particularly good but Philip wanted some as it was quite late flowering. And without their knowledge he passed it around as Baxendale's Late (after my father), which is what it's now known and sold as. I bought a couple of bulbs out of curiosity one year but let them die out as it really was a pretty poor plant, shy flowering and squinny when it did venture a flower. I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone to buy it.
I doubt I'll ever raise any snowdrops as big as trumpet daffs. It's just not in their genes to get as big as that. The wild trumpet daffs that the cultivars are raised from are, of course, much bigger than most wild snowdrops. I do like big snowdrops, as I think does everyone, but not that large :) It's as much the vigour and disease resistance I'm after as the increase in size - but I doubt you'd ever get much bigger than some of the existing large cultivars. But there's a lot you can breed for - such as strong stems, late flowering and early flowering, new flower shapes, new markings, etc. However, as I say, vigour and disease resistance are equally important. I think it would be nice to have some new snowdrops that are really strong and disease free and fast to increase in the garden instead of needing cossetting as some of the older ones do. That doesn't mean I don't like the older cultivars either, nor that I'll stop growing them or expect anyone else will.
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Rob, thanks for the link re. Chemical treatments to induce tetraploidy - I've had a quick look and it's very interesting. I'll be studying it at my leisure after the New Year festivities.
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John, I didn't say Cotswold Farm wasn't worth growing, just that I didn't think it was any great shakes. It's nice enough, but not a first-rank snowdrop. I don't know if Ruth Birchall named it or someone else. Actually, I like the recent idea that people should ask permission before naming a snowdrop after someone. There've been some cases where a snowdrop was named after a grower and it turned out that grower didn't much like the idea (didn't like the snowdrop much) and Baxendale's Late is a perfect example. If Philip Ballard had asked my parents they'd have said no thanks.
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Martin et al,
I would love if the postings within this thread about breeding Galanthus could perhaps be put out into their own discussion thread, so that they aren't in under a month (i.e the pre January). That way we can continue to contribute to the thread for time to come.....
I have an associated query...... I have never been able to find any pollen on my snowdrops, except on VERY rare occasions. Is there a time of day, time since opening, temperature etc that triggers pollen release? Maybe it is just too warm when they're open here and the pollen just shrivels quickly? I have intended to try some hybridising, but I haven't even managed to self-pollinate the darn things usually, as I can't find pollen on them. I think that only twice have I ever found pollen. Now I must admit I haven't been out checking at various times of day, or out with the torch at night, so I'm obviously not THAT dedicated!! ::) I'd just like to try it successfully for a change.
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Martin is there any correlation between a plant being diploid, triploid etc and the ease of gaining bulbils from chipping/twin-scaling? I cut Primrose Warburg, Three Ships, Wendy's Gold and others a couple of years ago as an experiment and certainly the yellows were not as fecund as the others, but I don't know whether it is because I chipped the expensive ones (heart in mouth) and tried my hand at twin-scaling the common ones. Hopefully I will have some decent clumps in a shorter time.
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what can be seen when a leaf is cut?
Paul it's possible that the pollen on your snowdrops falls too quickly due to warmth. When I bring mine inside to force them to open I see pollen falling out when I touch the flowers
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So does that mean you bring yours in for their first opening, or does it mean that there is pollen each morning?
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I bring them in so they open for me to take a photo. I assume warmth makes the pollen fall
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Hmmm... so pollen here would likely only be available early each day, and only the first couple of days at the most after opening, because after that the anthers tend to dry up. Interesting!!
So Martin..... how do you make certain that your cross is the only pollination the flower has? Do you isolate them from insects to make sure there isn't any bee pollination (or whatever insect does it in your garden)?
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what can be seen when a leaf is cut?
You're looking at the size of the nucleus - the more DNA the bigger the nucleus. With lilies an estimate of the ploidy level can be made by measuring the stomatal cell nuclei under magnification (which doesn't require cutting up the leaves). Saying this, I have seen pictures posted of treated lily bulb scales where the difference between converted and unconverted bulblets, even at an early stage, is obvious.
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Martin,I am relieved that you agree with my appraisal of 'Blaxendales Late' as I have no wish to offend and I agree with you that no one's name should be attatched to any plant without permission from the person concerned.I would go further and say that no snowdrop should bear a new name without the approval of a bonefide examining commitee operating under the auspices of the RHS.There are far too many similar/identical snowdrops appearing with new names and very fancy price-tags fuelled by the hype of the genus by interested parties.
I have myself been collecting snowdrops for 35yrs.and have more than 150varieties/names and I am still adding when I can find and afford varieties that are distinct.I no longer collect 'NAMES'
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Paul, some snowdrop cultivars produce very little if any pollen, presumably because they're very infertile triploids or infertile hybrids. Those that do produce decent amounts of pollen drop their pollen most freely on warm sunny days, or if the flowers are brought indoors as Mark suggests. I collect pollen (on warm days or from picked flowers brought indoors) by tapping the flower gently with its mouth held just over an open empty matchbox. The pollen will drop into the box (provided there's no strong wind) and can then be picked up on the bristles of a small paintbrush for pollinating.
I don't try to emasculate flowers that I cross as it's far too fiddly on small flowers like snowdrops, I do so many crosses that it'd be impossible anyway, and life's too damn short! ;D I start pollinating the chosen flowers as soon as they open, or preferably just before they open (by 'popping' the flowers open with my thumb) so that hopefully I beat any bees etc to the stigma. I keep going back and pollinating the same flowers again and again, to ensure I get them at their most receptive and to load as much pollen on the stigma as possible (essential if using low-fertility pollen from triploids).
The chances of self-pollination are low as most snowdrops seem to not be very self-fertile - although I do think that sometimes 'foreign' pollen from a different snowdrop put onto the stigma might switch off the self-infertility and allow some self-pollination.
Anyway, at this stage I'm not so much trying to breed specific characteristics together as trying to get some tetraploids that will be the basic building blocks of future breeding, allowing me to raise lots of fertile seedling generations and do some 'proper' breeding and selection.
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Brian, triploid cultivars do, in my experience, make new bulbils after chipping faster (and often larger) than non-triploids, which makes sense as the triploids (and tetraploids) are generally stronger and more vigorous plants than diploids. That's also another useful indicator of the bulb's ploidy level. I usually chip new strong seedlings straight away, so I get a quick indication fromn how strongly they produce bulbils of whether they might be polyploid (though that doesn't tell if they're tetraploid or triploid - I try to guage that by pollinating new seedlings to see if they're fertile) it's all a bit hit and miss.
This polyploid vigour (and the better disease resistance of polyploid bulbs) is also the reason that some very old triploids (like Gal. 'Magnet' and 'S. Arnott') are still around and growing strongly today even though they're really quite aged plants (Magnet, I think without checking, being about 100 years old).
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Martin,
We get quite a lot of "natural" pods on Galanthus here, particularly the unnamed elwesii var monostrictus types. One of the named ones I was pleased to get seed from was 'Sibbertoft Manor' as it is one of my very fav snowies..... I've lifted teh seedlings to keep the clump "pure" and will await them flwoering in an unspecified number of years!! Who knows how long they'll take to get to flowering size in my non-ideal garden. The basic monos set seed around themselves at times, particularly some of the locally named ones from Aus (many of which aren't exactly breathtakingly different to other monostrictus ::)) and I have osme of them that would be approaching flowering size I think. Some like 'Warburton' set seed rather freely, and I have little clumps of seedlings in various places about 6 inches out from the clump. Species like ikariae and reginae-olgae set seed quite heavily here, with or without help (those I HAVE been able to find pollen on, so I have given them help some years).
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no snowdrop should bear a new name without the approval of a bonefide examining commitee operating under the auspices of the RHS.
I think this happens to some primulas - auriculas, probably - seedlings have to win a prize within a few years in order to be allowed a name.
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no snowdrop should bear a new name without the approval of a bonefide examining commitee operating under the auspices of the RHS.
I think this happens to some primulas - auriculas, probably - seedlings have to win a prize within a few years in order to be allowed a name.
It's certainly so, both for Primulas and Auriculas, under the auspices of the National Auricula and Primula Society. The growers of seedlings entered in competition and winning a class are invited to name their plants. This does help to keep down the numbers of poor quality and indifferent plants in the UK but obviously plants come in from Europe and other parts of the world, and nuserymen in the UK are prone to giving plants names with gay abandon.
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Thanks for your enlightening answers Martin. That is most helpful and I won't feel so bad at not doing very well with some of the twin scaling! A most interesting subject which I feel I must get to grips with more.
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Martin i noticed you are also trying to find the Holy Grail, if you are going to use oryzaline for the production of tetraploids you have to hurry because its not in production anymore.
Have you tested already some species being multiploid or are you going to do it?
You can do it by examening the breathopenings(correct word?) on the leaves, and compare it with others who are for sure polyploid. I will have some tested this spring, maybe if you have some tested we can do a exchange of information.
By the way using the oryzalin, it take two or three years before you will see the result, and the chance of succes is about 5 %.
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Gerard,
Perhaps you could clarify what you mean. Is Oryzalin no longer in production worldwide, or merely withdrawn from sale in the EU? Certainly the place where I buy mine (http://www.phytotechlab.com/Detail.aspx?ID=507) is still offerring it for sale with no apparent warnings about diminishing supplies.
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We heard its out of production here in the EU, because of its licence is running out for herbicide.I think it stays available in Tasmania,we still have for 200 years in stock so there will be no problem for our polyploidirasationprogram.(nice word for scrabble)
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Gerard, thanks for the warning about Oryzalin being unavailable in the EU. Looks like I'll have to stick to trying the seed route to tetraploids. They took away the snowdrop fungicides too! >:(
I haven't done any polyploid testing yet, but I expect I will. Can you see the difference in sizes of the leaf stomata (I think that's the right word) with a hand-lense or do you need to use a microscope and special measuring equipment?
The success rate is only 5% with Oryzalin? Does that mean 95% of the bulbils treated are killed and the 5% that survive are likely to be polyploid? Or do most bulbs survive but only 5% turn polyploid?
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Withdrawn from use as a herbicide. Quite possibly still available for use as a laboratory reagent then. And given the dilution factor, even a small quantity would last a very long time if you could get hold of it.
Looks like I'll have to stick to trying the seed route to tetraploids
But there are real advantages to converting named forms - you'll have a fair idea of what their properties are for one thing.
The success rate is only 5% with Oryzalin? Does that mean 95% of the bulbils treated are killed and the 5% that survive are likely to be polyploid? Or do most bulbs survive but only 5% turn polyploid?
The Oryzalin is delivered at a sub-lethal dose - most material should survive. Certainly that's the case with lilies where converted and unconverted bulblets are produced side by side on the same bulb scale.
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don`t you end up with 'Down'snowdrops!
Down's Syndrome in humans is caused by an extra chromosome. Polyploidy is extra complete sets of chromosomes, which is different.
However, if you try breeding with triploids, because of the unequal way the three sets of chromosomes pair and split, you can get seedlings with a chromosome missing, which can lead to unusual aberrations such as new flower forms, which can be very interesting to the breeder and gardener.
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Martin,
I was joking! ;D and glad you explain about the chromosomes.
In humans people want "normal"and healthy kids,in gardening healthy is also important but 'normal' sounds a bit boring!
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Martin,
I was joking! ;D and glad you explain about the chromosomes.
In humans people want "normal"and healthy kids,in gardening healthy is also important but 'normal' sounds a bit boring!
I know you were joking. I just thought I'd explain, as an interesting point, why extra complete sets of chromosomes (as in triplopids and tetrapliods) don't neccessarily cause abnormalities, but the splitting of chromosome sets when breeding with triploids can cause abnormalties which may be horticulturally interesting.
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If you do the procedure right there is a good chance that about 5 til 20 % will be polyploid and the rest stays diploid or triploid, they wont die because the mixture is a few milligrams on a bucket full of water.
For comparing the stomata you need references of species that are for sure triploid or tetraploid, polyploids stomata are bigger and more.
Trying the seed route, getting tetraploids is very difficult because you have to be sure you have two instabile diploids to melt together, is easier to win the lottery.
I am going to try to make some triploids, hexaploid with oryzalin, and after this i start breeding with interesting diploids, that will give one set diploid and two sets tetraploids.
For examening the ploidlevel there is a company here in holland called Plant Cytometry Services, you can find details on www.PlantCytometry.nl
It is not expensive 35 euro and 6 samples(2,60 each) will give a average of 8,43 per sample
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Gerard, thanks for the information. Maybe I'll try the internet and see if I can get hold of some Oryzalin as an alternative route to tetraploids.
For the seed route, I'm intercrossing triploids, on the basis that they should have just a very little fertility rather than being completely sterile (partly through producing unreduced gametes) - so if I do enough crosses with enough flowers, I just might get the occasional one or two seeds set, which may be tetraploid. According to a botanist at Kew Gardens who specialises in this sort of thing, the chances are very, very low; but in theory if you do enough crosses (lots and lots) then you may eventually get a tetraploid (it's how the first tetraploid daffodil was produced, by the crossing of two trilpoid daffodils, which luckily gave a tetraploid seedling). But it might take many years!
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Rob, can I assume from your sign-off on your message (ahoy!) that your family roots are in Slovakia or Czech Republic? Sorry, I accidentally deleted your message before I could reply to it. :-\
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In Snowdrops, it was written that Dr. Ben Zonneveld of Leiden University began
measuring the amount of DNA in snowdrop species and some cultivars, using
Flow Cytometry, in 2001.
I just googled "Flow Cytometry Galanthus" and found an abstract of "The systematic
value of nuclear DNA content in Galanthus"
by Zonneveld, Grimshaw and Davis, published in 2003 in Plant Systematics
and Evolution
There are two abstracts of this article:
http://www.cababstractsplus.org/google/abstract.asp?AcNo=20033208109 http://www.springerlink.com/content/gp1r12uh0cb0x33m/
Tetraploids were found in G. transcaucasicus and hexaploids in G. elwesii
and G. lagodechianus.
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Flow cytometry is the method used by the company Gerard recommended in Holland. Seems quite cheap.
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Maybe I'll try the internet and see if I can get hold of some Oryzalin as an alternative route to tetraploids
It seems to me that even if an individual can't get a permit to import this for use as a chemical reagent rather than a herbicide, any suitably qualified laboratory should be able to. Over here in Australia orchid breeding is a fairly widespread hobby. Home hobbyists send their seed pods away to a lab for in-vitro germination, and get back flasked plantlets. Amongst the services on offer is tissue conversion. Even our local orchid nursery doesn't convert it's own tetraploids but sends them to someone else. It would be a more expensive route, but might be worth exploring.
Rob, can I assume from your sign-off on your message (ahoy!) that your family roots are in Slovakia or Czech Republic?
<Sigh> As your wife will probably tell you, mine is a fairly common Czech name - it must be true 'cos everyone in my family has it. Any Krejzl you should meet in the UK will be at least a cousin of mine. Be kind.
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If you cant get some oryzalin Martin, i can try to get some for you.
If you really want to get polyploids you need it, otherwise with the seedroute you will probably have some succes after 10 or 20 years and a awful lot of work,administration etc.
See you in 20 years?
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Thanks for the offer, Gerard. I might see if I can order some oryzalin from the American company that Rob gets his from. They supply it as a chemical for plant lab culture etc rather than a herbicide, so maybe they'll ship to the UK.
It just seems a waste to have to order 500 ml of the stuff when I'd probably only ever use a few spoonfuls. I'll let you know if I have any success.
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Rob, can you tell me how you prepare your Oryzalin solution (using the oryzalin from Phytotechlab, which I might try to order) to get the right dilution, what you dissolve it in (distilled water?) and how, and how long you soak your lily scales for. I assume, from skimming through the info I've seen, that you take scales at the normal time, soak, then incubate scale bulbils as normal - so I guess I'd do the same but with snowdrop bulb chips, as normal but with a soak in the oryzalin before putting into incubation bags of vermiculite.
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Martin it is good to know you are going to start, for me its also better to keep motivated and to know there are others with a mission.
Have you heard of the book The electronic comparative plant ecology ?
I will try to find it in the KAVB library, but i dont think it will be there, its published in 1995 Chapman&Hall in London and written by JG Hodgson, JP Grime,R Hunt and K Thompson.
There should be information in it about polyploidity in galanthus and maybe some species are named in it.
Thanks Diane for the information
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How about this: put some colchicum flowers in a small
ziplock bag, close it, rub the bag so the flowers inside
are crushed, then, wearing disposable gloves, put some
snowdrop bulb sections inside.
From a website that was not identified: One Colchicum
autumnale flower contains about 12 mg colchicine, a 20g
tuber provides 60mg, single seed provides 3.5mg
The message warned about the extreme toxicity of colchicine,
but it seems to me that keeping oneself protected by plastic
would be safe.
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Diane, that's an interesting idea. I've certainly got plenty of colchicum bulbs in the garden. The problem with colchicine, apart from the extreme toxicity, is I believe that it also tends to produce other genetic abnormalities than simply polyploidy. Of course that might not be a bad thing in snowdrop circles, where wierd and wonderful is often highly esteemed!
By the way, I wonder why colchicums aren't all polyploid if colchicine induces polyploidy?! Or maybe they are. That would certainly account for those ridiculously massive bulbs!
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Martin,
The Art Evans link I posted covers most of your questions pretty well, but I've sent you something by PM. Although it doesn't dissolve easily, you can use hot water to dissolve Oryzalin and still get reasonable results, but if that doesn't work for you try alcohol instead - avoid DMSO since it can deliver whatever's dissolved in it straight into your bloodstream.
I wonder why colchicums aren't all polyploid if colchicine induces polyploidy?!
And why opium poppies aren't all high since they contain opium..
I'd avoid making your own colchicine. It's not just the snowdrops that might show wierd and wonderful abnormalities...
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I have been trying to cross my four clones of poculiform elwesii
with my friend's Wendy's Gold, for several years now, but Wendy
doesn't seem inclined to produce much pollen. Last year I picked
the stamens from four flowers, and thought I had a little bit of pollen,
but didn't get any seeds. Unfortunately, that is the only yellow
snowdrop growing here. (We have a group that searches old
gardens every winter.)
How is Wendy over there?
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Diane, I've only used Wendy's Gold as a seed parent, not a pollen parent. You could try picking some flowers and keeping them in water indoors to see if the pollen flows more freely in the warm. That often works for me. I gently tap the flower as I hold its mouth just above or inside an empty matchbox. If the pollen is flowing, it'll cascade down into the matchbox and make a little golden patch which you can then dab with your brush.
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Unfortunately, it's my friend's plant. She is very generous in
allowing me to take stamens, but I wouldn't pick flowers unless
she had masses, and she only has a few.
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Perhaps you could try putting a bell-jar, cloche or just a big jar over the flowers on a sunny day. The trapped warmth of the sun might help the pollen flow - then try tapping it into a matchbox.
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OK. That sounds do-able. We have been having some sunny days lately,
(very unusual), but the elwesiis aren't out yet.
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Not a breeding question, but a seed growing one.
I have been collecting snowdrop seeds for the past 3 years, usually 600-800 seeds each year. How long do they take to flower from seed?
Thanks for info.
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I am very good about recording when seeds are sown, and when
they germinate. I am reasonably good about recording when and
where they are planted in the garden, but I am not very good at all
about noting when they flower.
I have only two examples of length of time to flower from seed.
G. nivalis subplicatus collected north of Istanbul. Sown 1998, flowered 2006
G. reginae-olgae sown 1999, flowered October 2006
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Not a breeding question, but a seed growing one.
I have been collecting snowdrop seeds for the past 3 years, usually 600-800 seeds each year. How long do they take to flower from seed?
Thanks for info.
In my experience it can be anything from 2 or 3 years to 7 or 8 years depending on the growing conditions and the kind of snowdrop seed. I have seedlings from crosses made 8 years ago that still haven't flowered. Pure species seedlings seem to flower faster than hybrids, and some species flower faster than others. It's really a question of how long is a piece of string.
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Diane + Martin ,
I sowing a lot of Galanthus - but my expieriences are only for species .
G. reg. olgae ssp. vernalis needs 3-4 year from sowing to flowering
G. gracilis : 4 years
G. alpinus : 4 years
G. elwesii : 4 years
G. nivalis : 5 years
I have still some other sowing -but I have to wait ....
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Usually I have pollinated snowdrops growing in the garden, but this
year I suddenly have lots of new pots of elwesii that I have just bought
in flower.
I was advised that pollen flows better when the plant is warm, so I
brought the plants inside, and got lots of pollen. I held a little piece of
aluminum foil under the flower and tapped it on the top. The pollen
fell down very nicely, so now I have pots with their pollen-covered foil
squares in one corner.
I have pollinated some flowers, but now - at what temperature will
the seeds develop best? I have rooms of different temperatures,
various places in a big unheated greenhouse, and places of varying
shelter outside. The weather is not springlike - above freezing, but
it snowed for a while today.
Has anyone experimented with this?
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Diane, it's best not to keep the pollinated pots in a warm room or the pods can abort. Cool but frost-free under glass is best.
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I have been sent some pollen from some yellow nivalis so that
I can try my idea of using it on my poculiform elwesii, of which I
have four clones.
Only two have decided to flower this year.
Now I wonder whether the hybrids I produce will be fertile. The
only hybrid that I grow is Magnet, which is sterile. Does this
mean that elwesii x nivalis will be sterile? I will need to go on
a couple of generations to develop good yellows, so this would
be a disappointment.
Maybe I should also pollinate some nivalis, just to make sure I
get some plants that will produce children and grandchildren. I
have a couple of clumps of nivalis - quite ordinary ones. Nivalis
here don't vary as does elwesii. (This might just be the result of
elwesii being much better suited to our mediterranean climate,
so that oddities can thrive).
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Yes, I'd use the pollen on some nivalis as well. I've found a number of inter-species hybrids are very infertile, setting no seed at all (e.g. Robin Hood, Merlin). Do you have any plicatus? Nivalis crosses quite readily with plicatus. But do try some nivalis X yellow nivalis, to give you a good chance of some fertile offspring if that's what you want to continue breeding.
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I have a 'Robin Hood' with nearly six petals!
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Apart from the trickiness of knowing what has pollinated what (scissors, muslin bags and paintbrushes needed), I would sow seeds fresh in pots. They germinate in the spring and take five years to flower.
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Rob,
There is a thread titled "Galanthus breeding"
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Yes Rob, all ready and waiting.
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Two kind forumists sent me pollen from some yellow-flowered plants.
I pollinated the only two cultivars of poculiform elwesii that are blooming
for me this year, in hopes that the lack of markings will make yellow marks
appear in the first generation seedlings.
Then I followed advice about also pollinating some nivalis so that I can
be sure of having some fertile seedlings to carry on with. I had to wait
for my nivalis to open, and I have just now pollinated flowers from two
lots of wild-collected seeds.
The little foil-wrapped packets are now in the freezer to be used in the
fall when my reginae-olgae flower.
Hmm - maybe I should have crossed some woronowii as well.
Now to hover over the (hopefully) developing seedpods.
Meantime, I have fat elwesii seedpods trussed up to stakes. This is the
species that thrives here.
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Terrific example of Forum cooperation, Diane! Best of luck for good results from all your diligent tickling 8)
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glad you got some yellow stuff Diane. I wanted to help out but have been worried about this virus outbreak I have been experiencing so didn't want to pass any plants on. I didn't realise that it was possible to send polen across the ocean and for it to still be viable in a different country.
Looking forward to 2012 and seeing any offspring you produce.
John x
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Here's a view that isn't often shown.
These are from elwesii crosses made at the beginning of February.
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What good fat shiny seed pods, Diane.... full of promise, I'm sure 8)
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Diane and Martin,
There is a new possibility about getting sterile plants fertile ( polyploid).
Were are using a gas container at the moment for the Lillypollenation, which can do 7 atm, and were you can put a complete plant with pollen in.
After a certain period treated with N2O (2 atm), the pollen will be polyploid at several different levels.
So you have a lot more chance to breed with a good sterile plant instead of treating the twinscales with Oryzaline.
I will post pictures later.
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That sounds very interesting, Gerard. Should give much faster results than treating twinscales and growing them on to get pollen.
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Here are the promised pictures.
The procedure is to put a plant, that is about 1 or 2 weeks before flowering, in the container and leave it in for about 48 hours at a pressure of 5 bar N2O.
Then you can take the plant out, and the undevelopped pollen have for a large percentage become polyploid and fertile.
good luck
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Must it be N2O? Would increasing the pressure of ordinary air also work?
I am trying to think of how I could set this up at home.
Maybe I need to ask for a bit of space at the university or at one of our
government research stations.
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Hello Diane,
If you have to chance to do so , do it because the whole thing did cost about 3000 euro.
And yes Diane it has to be N2O, it has been tested here in Holland and N2O gave the best results.
I have not found out jet, if there are smaller equipment available, this one is about 2mtr high.
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Diane and Martin,
If you are not able to get or use this machine, i can have the plants treated you want to breed with.
When you send me the bulbs , i will plant them and send you the pollen in the springtime, i return the bulbs later as dormant.
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Well, it's another breeding season. How did you do last year?
No seeds from the flowers I pollinated with the several types of pollen
from yellows (lutescens, Wendy's Gold, Ray Cobb) that Forumists
kindly sent me last year. I froze the pollen to use on my reg-olgae, but
for the first time, they didn't flower. So I have just used the remaining
lutescens pollen on four poculiform elwesii.
I'm not being successful collecting pollen from my potted plants. The
lampshade woronowii I bought produced none. A potful of mixed poc
seedlings has produced none. I've just brought some cut flowers in
from the garden and have them in a vase, with a small dish placed
under each to collect pollen.
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The stigmatic surface is so tiny. I fold back the petals and gently
swish the style through the pollen I've collected on a hard surface
(Japanese sauce dishes are a good size). It is possible to see that
the tip of the style is yellow from pollen.
I've tried this with new flowers, and the pollen clings. However,
it is a bit difficult to know if a flower really is newly opened because
it is usually cloudy here, and so the flowers are all closed, and therefore
all look new.
I don't usually bother to emasculate flowers in the garden because it is
very rare for seed to set naturally here. In fact, I can't remember ever
having a seedpod that was not the result of my pollinating, and lots of
my crosses produce no pods at all.
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....
I don't usually bother to emasculate flowers in the garden because it is
very rare for seed to set naturally here. In fact, I can't remember ever
having a seedpod that was not the result of my pollinating, and lots of
my crosses produce no pods at all.
And yet surely the large expanse of elwesii you showed photographs of recently were largely self-set from seed?
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I meant, in my shady garden. When I visit my brother on the seaside,
his snowdrops will be open with bees buzzing in them.
The place I photographed is mainly a large open space with widely-spaced
oak trees, so when the sun shines (which doesn't happen all that often in
winter), those snowdrops will open.
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I find snowdrop stigmas are not very receptive to start with. When the flowers 'drop' from the spathes and it becomes possible to pop open the outers petals to get at the stigma, pollen will not adhere to the stigma tip very easily. But two or three days later much more pollen with stick much more easily. I find it best to pollinate as soon as I can open the flower with my fingers, dusting the stigma whether much pollen seems to be sticking or not. Then go back a couple of days later and try again, when you'll generally find more pollen sticks.
If you're trying to do a deliberate cross, Rob, I wouldn't wait for a flower to open naturally, as in dull or cold weather it might not open for days but the stigma might be receptive inside the closed flower. Pop it open and pollinate as soon as the outers can easily be pressed open.
Snowdrops tend not to be very self-fertile, so provided you get to the stigma with your pollen before the bees, you stand a good chance of not having your cross spoiled. However, some snowdrops produce a lot of pollen, and if this falls it will stick to the stigma, and even if it won't pollinate, it can still stop your pollen from adhering and pollinating.
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Must give a big thanks to Martin for clearly explaining the diploid,triploid and tetraploid differences.
Sorry to re boot the topic but has there been any developments regarding identifying triploid and tetraploid snowdrops?
Interesting also to have a confirmation that trips can in the right situation occasionally set seed or produce viable pollen.