Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Ian Young's Bulb Log - Feedback Forum => Topic started by: David Shaw on January 17, 2007, 01:20:07 PM
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Ian & Maggie, congratulations to you both. This award could not have gone to a more deserving partnership.
You have both done so much to further education in Scottish (& planetary) horticuture.
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2007/170107/log.html
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May I join David in congratulating both Mrs and Mr Young (some above average courtesy seems appropriate under the circumstances) on this so well deserved recognition of their skills and continuous efforts to make this world a better (gardening) place.
On a simple note : congratulations Maggi and Ian ! ;D
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'Right worthy' indeed - congratulations to you both!
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Great news Congratulations!!!!!!! and keep up the good work
By the way who gets to wear the gong or do you take it turns? ;D
Since there is only one gong and two of us; he will wear it Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, I'll get it Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays and on Sunday we'll polish it, and our haloes!! ::) M
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Ian & Maggi - well done to both of you - very well deserved recognition.
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Congratulations Ian and Maggi. Your honour is much deserved. Glad to see that the Exhibition went well and I hope that the Young bank account is suitably impressed (if it has have you converted it to Erythronium seed Ian? ;D
Erythronium seed is not cheap, as you can imagine!! Luckily the Hospital Art Trust has also benefitted from the sales! M
She who must be obeyed is now very worried about my mutterings of "Where can I get some old venetian blinds from" ???
Try your local recycling depot, that's nearly always fruitful. Or a scrap merchants. Or phone the local venetian blind shop (there are still some about) and ask for some rejects. M
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Congratulations Ian and Maggi for this great award.
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May I add my congratulations too. Well deserved both of you. See you next month.
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Heartiest Congratulations Ian & Maggi!
Delighted that your work has been recognised.
Although I have only been a signed-up member of this forum for a short while, I have been one of those lurkers for a long while and have enjoyed my regular visits and been a benificiary of Ian and Maggi's work. Actually, now that I have become a member I am beginning to think this forum is taking up a significant portion of life, but it is winter and what better to do on these dark evenings. When the longer evenings come we can stay in the garden instead of writing about it.
Well done for all you have done and great to join in congratulations for this recognition which has come your way.
Paddy
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Very many congratulations to you Ian and Maggi. You're a constant inspiration to us all and I know that I have learnt much from you over the last few years. I raise my glass (a wee dram of SINGLE malt, of course) in salute to you both as very worthy recipients!!!!!
Dave
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And congratulations from the underside of the world too Maggi and Ian. I'm thrilled for you both. The medal is much nicer than a mere knighthood and very richly deserved. And great success with the exhibition too. What lovely pictures. Are you going to bring one or two to NZ next year? I hope so.
A super bulb log edition altogether, with such detailed and well illustrated instructions for sowing bulb seed. Just one query though, I thought erythronium was one you deep planted. Is that incorrect?
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Thanks everyone for your kind words we do appreciate them.
Lesley, I have never said to plant the Western American Erythroniums deep. I have said that my first instinct was to try them planted deep, based on the depth the bulbs take themselves down to, but my experiences and trials have proved otherwise.
Think how they are distributed, by catapult action as the seed pod dries and opens at the top only so the seed does not fall out - it has the be catapulted out.
But to add the twist to the tale, and I will come back to this at some time in the years bulb log, The Eastern American erythroniums along with the dens canis clade are completely different. Their seed capsules split completely spilling the seeds out. Also the seeds have an elaiosome, a sweet fleshy attachment, to encourage ants to distribute them and take them underground and so I believe they are best sown deep -I am still awaiting the results of another trial to confirm this.
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Congrats Ian and Maggi! I look forward to seeing the gong around Maggi's neck at the Aberdeen Show in May!
Ian, the step-by-step demonstration of seed raising is a great help. You must have a secure, windless area to sow those Frit seeds like that! They'd be completely mixed before I got the grit onto them if I tried it like that!
If you bring some of your prints to NZ next year it will be another incentive for people to attend!
cheers
fermi
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Congratulations! Contributions to global horticulture, methinks.
Ah, for once I get exciting seed on my side of the pond before y'all do. I took a more cautious approach to winter sowing fritillaria, splitting half (only the N. American from NNS and East Asian varieties from JJA) seed for sewing now, and half for september of '07. I flooded once and drained, and keep them in my cool (3-4C) basement for 4-6 weeks to mimic a short fall, then put them outside February 1st for the three full months of snow, frost, and cold temperatures until spring breaks May first or thereafter. We'll see if this encourages spring sprouting instead of fall sprouting like last year. Also, my September 06 seed from these groups that didn't sprout last spring should make a showing this spring if on a september "break dormancy" regime. Again, we'll see. I'm very committed to making every possible mistake myself before actually learning anything.
Ian & Maggie - if I find that you are also gifted sculptors, linquists, martial artists and astronauts, I doubt I'd be much more impressed with your talents. And you share your art as freely as your gardening skills, it seems. Thank You.
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Fermi,
I should have mentioned that I sow the seed in the shelter of a glasshouse or like you the frit seed would end up everywhere.
No matter how hard I try and cover all the important points it is all too easy to take these simple factors forgranted.
I am keen to show other tasks in detail in future logs and any suggestions for topics or points/techniques that I could cover are welcome.
I will try and bring a selection of prints out with me next year, the smaller ones will be easy enough to pack, I am not sure about the larger ones, but you will be able to see them when you are over.
Clay,
the best way to learn anything is to make the mistakes yourself, as long as you identify them and only make them once.
I am holding all my Eurasian Fritillaria seeds and will sow them in September.
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Maggi and Ian, Well done!!!!! ;D ;D ;DCongratulations to you both on this superb award.
Jim
Details of Caley Awards 2007 and pix, citations etc :
http://www.royalcaledonianhorticulturalsociety.org/awards2007/awards2007.htm
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One topic I'd like to see you cover is how to tell when to water pots with
all that grit on them. I don't use grit, and can tell at a glance by the
colour of the compost whether it requires watering. A friend sowed my
seeds for me once when I was travelling and topdressed with grit - I dried
out a lot of pots before I finally tipped the grit off the remainder.
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Maggi and Ian, heartiest congratulations. You both deserve it for all the work you put in to what is simply the best plant forum in the world. I have learnt so much from the bulb log over the last few years.
As for those prints - are you going to have them for sale?????? Surely you won't want to carry them back as excess luggage.
Susan
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Thanks for the suggestion Diane, I will cover that topic in the next few weeks.
Any more suggestions from anyone?
Susan, yes indeed if I bring prints out they will be for sale. Some editions are already sold out but by this time next year I will have printed a few more as I am working on several new blocks just now.
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Ian, That's great, look forward to that. Maggi will have to come out to share bringing the excess luggage! Prints, whisky...... It'll be a hard job but you obviously need someone to carry the bags!
Susan
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Just want to add my congrats on the gong - and on the exhibition. Having had the priviledge of seeing one or two of the works close up and 'in the flesh' I imagine the whole set on display must have been very powerful. I only wish I could have been there.
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Thanks, Ian.
Another topic: how to tell when your plant is old enough to flower.
I can go around my rhododendrons in August, count the number of
flower buds and plan next spring's crosses.
I can see when erythroniums have two leaves and know they're mature
enough to flower.
Other plants are a mystery - like seedling narcissus. They have masses
of leaves for years. I hope and keep looking for buds, then the season
is over and it's too late for another year.
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Another topic: how to tell when your plant is old enough to flower.
The best way to tell is actually observe that it is in flower - at last.
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Narcissus that produce masses of leaves and do not flower is a very common complaint that I hear as I go around lecturing.
The reason for this is, and there is no easy way to say it, you are not growing them properly.
They need more water and food, especially potash than you think to produce flower buds.
I also think that once a bulb gets into this habit of producing many small offsets it is difficult to get it back on the right track.
Thanks for these pointers Diane, I will cover them in future logs.
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They need more water and food, especially potash than you think to produce flower buds.
Ian - would be very grateful if you could expand on the use of potash, or more precisely when & how it should be applied
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Chris, try some of these pages for starters, then tell us what else you need to know:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/300103/log.html
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2005/160205/log.html
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2005/080305/log.html
http://www.srgc.org.uk/discus/messages/321/369.html?1109366439
I think these should be quite a help,
m
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Chris, try some of these pages for starters, then tell us what else you need to know ...I think these should be quite a help
Thank you Maggi, very useful & they certainly made me think.
In the last year I have started to grow my snowdrops in lattice baskets which I then 'plant' out in the garden. I use a basic mix of john innes, multi compost, sharp sand & some bone meal (to give a mix of both short term & longer term nutrients) & the aim is to repot every 2 to 3 years.
Extra bone meal is added to the surface in the autumn & I was going to give a liquid feed of tomato fertiliser, after flowering, which seems to fit with the advice given in the Bulb Log.
However, I still remain unclear as to whether a separate feed of potash is desirable as well and, if so, when.
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Chris, it is all there in the Logs. See the dates of the logs, that gives you an idea of when it is happening up here, and at what stages. I give you this quote from this log, from a link given above :
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2005/160205/log.html
"I start adding potassium in the form of sulphate of potash to the bulbs when the flowers are just going over in mature bulbs. With seedling and non flowering bulbs I add it when I think the leaves have reached a normal size, this is always much earlier than with the flowering bulbs. ......Nowadays, potash is chemically produced and comes in the form of a soluble white powder which I add to the top dressing of the pots and every time I water a little is dissolved and taken down to the bulb roots. I add it at the rate of a teaspoon full to an 8cm pot, two to a 13 cm pot etcWhen I have added it very early in the season on seedling bulbs or autumn flowering bulbs I often add a second dose in the spring.
Since I have been growing more bulbs in plastic pots, which require less watering than the same bulbs in clay pots, I have to remember to get the potash on quickly because there is less opportunity to water and so to feed the bulbs, although, as long as there is moisture in the pot, some of the potash will leach down to the roots."
That whole log is mostly about feeding with potash, all you need should be there... there is comment on autumn flowering bulbs etc and their feeding, too.
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Hi Maggi - I did read the logs - honest!
Perhaps it was the way I asked my follow up question - I was just trying to find out if, given the nutrients in my pot mix, the subsequent feeds of bone meal & tomato fertiliser, and the re-potting every 2 to 3 years, it is still appropriate to use Potash - whilst I don't want to underfeed the bulbs, I don't want to overfeed them either.
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Last year I read this log and bought a box of sulphate of potash (me, an organic gardener) to use on our narcissus and other bulbs. On the first watering the powder set like lumps of cement on top of the grit! People kept asking what it was and it was still there at repotting time. Previously I have tried an organic potash from Chase and this ent mouldy on the top of the pot :(.
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Chris,
I do not like to use tomato fertiliser because although it is high in potash it also has quite a lot of nitrogen in as well and that is bad for the bulbs at the later stages of growth.
If you continue to use the tomato fertiliser you would not want to add the potash as you could over feed them and as you point out that is not desirable either.
David I have never had the set like concrete problem. If you sprinkle the potash over the surface, and not dump it in one pile, then water it in well with a flood most of it will be taken down. There is often a trace of it remains on the gravel and every time I water some more will wash down.
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Ian - thanks very much for this - sounds like it is a straight choice between tomato fertiliser or potash, after the flowering stage - from everything you have said in the bulb log it sounds as if the better choice is potash - I will try it
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I have just read the logs that Maggi recommended regarding your fertilization
program. You state each time that you use sulphate of potash, but in one of
the logs you show a picture of the packet which says potassium oxide. Where
does the sulphur come in?
I went to our local garden centre today and saw a packet of potassium sulphate
labelled 0-0-53. Is this the strength that you use?
I'm not sure whether one can harm the plants with an overdose, so I haven't
bought it yet.
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Good point Anne, I am guilty of using the old fashioned term 'potash' which as a young gardener was always called 'sulphate of potash'.
I have used the phrase 'sulphate of potash' in a similar way to how we tend to call all vacum cleaners 'hoovers' in pre dyson days.
I wll try and change and be more correct it is potassium that the bulbs require and I do not think it matters if it is an oxide or a sulphate. The box I pictured was an oxide but I have also used potassium sulphate.
Potassium is much less likely to chemically burn or damage plants than nitrogen based fertilisers are.
I have only once had a reaction which was almost certainly caused by an overdose. That was when I was experimenting and I added a sprinkling in my usual way to some newly germinated fritillaria seedlings, there were only about a month old. The seedling leaves yellowed and curled up at the tips and that was because the young root had most likely been damaged by the chemical.
However I have never had any problems when adding potassium to any mature bulb and I now wait until much later in the season, when the roots have toughened up, before I give first year seedlings a reduced dose of potassium.
I will show in detail again when and how I feed with potash in the appropriate bulb logs.
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Valentin Wijnen has some very interesting observations to make about Potash, over on the 'Galanthus January 2007' topic, & would appreciate some comment.
(NOTE to Moderator - is it possible to switch his post over to this thread - I know that was his intention, but he had some problems when posting)
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I have copied Valentin's post from the Galanthus thread and repeat it here:
Valentin Wijnen
Re: Galanthus January 2007
« Reply #144 on: Today at 09:25:00 AM » Quote Modify Remove Split Topic
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Last week I have been following the issue on feeding plants with potash. I do want to go further in this matter, discussing the essence on it. I am looking forward to see some reactions on this post...
On this liquid fertilizer: It certainly makes us questioning, isn't it? In fact it is quite logic that too much nitrogen will damage the bulb. Nitrogen makes the leafs go longer, provides lush growth of leafs but does not stimulate bold plants. Biologically speaking, a bulb is only a modified stem. I provided last year an organic K-fertilizer. Indeed, like we could read in the bulb logs (or the replies on the sgrc), this organic thing causes white strings on the soil. On the other side, I do not think that this would harm the bulbs. Mycelia ( plural of mycelium as we call these white strings) are in fact the underground growth of fungi. The mushrooms are only the fruit of this plants. These mycelia do provide (combined together with micro-organisms) essential nutrition for the plants. I read already some different times that snowdrops are living together with mycorrhiza. It is a symbiosis to set it in scientific terms. Although, I have never seen it to be proven for Galanthus. It would be very important to know this for sure as it should explain why quite some snowdrops that are transplanted in the green, die down. Probably, in those cases there's no possible mycorrhiza due to a different pH, no material originating from the place where the bulb was dug out.
There is on this K- (potash) - thing another small problem. With us, it is not easy to find pure K-fertilzer (the white powder that is mentioned in the bulb log. It seems to be for professionals...The formula of it would be K2 SO4. No garden centre in the neighbourhood provides it.....
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Valentin Wijnen, Hoeselt NE part of Belgium
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Hi, Valentin, Maggi here. Ian will reply to you later, but meantime I can tell you that the "potash" we use is bought from a garden centre, available to the general public. It is strange that you do not have such available to you in Belgium, I cannot imagine why this is.
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Valentin, you make some very good points regarding symbiotic relationships between the bulb, fungi and possibly bacteria as well.
All these factors help to break down both the mineral and organic content of the soils making the essential nutrients available to the bulbs and other plants.
Anything we can do to increase this fungal and bacterial activity in our gardens will benefit the plants.
I would love to have a better understanding of this complex relationship and like you I would welcome any comments or observations on this matter.
It is not so easy to establish this kind of organic relationship when growing bulbs in pots that are repotted each year and this is why I use the chemical way.
Your comment regarding Gallanthus being moved in the green and dying back is also a good point that I had not thought of and may indeed be a contributory factor.
I have never agreed with the advice that moving any bulb in the green, i.e., when it is in full growth, is best for the bulb with the exception of some trilliums.
I think that this is a myth that has been spread mostly by the early commercial growers of gallanthus who found it much easier to find lift and split the clumps of snowdrops when they were growing rather than when they are dormant and have disappeared underground.
I do agree and often do lift and divide bulbs when they are in flower because that is the easy time for me to find and separate them out and if they are treated very carefully they usually grow on perfectly well.
The good thing about sending out Gallanthus in the green is that everyone, the growers, the commercial agents and the gardeners are all encouraged to get them back into the soil as quickly as possible and that is what they need. They will not tolerate being stored dry in warm air for a prolonged period.
Back to the potash, Potassium, K, it is easily available in the UK at all Garden centres and super stores, perhaps because it is a traditional thing in the UK and has always been used in vegetable and fruit gardens.
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Ian, thanks for sharing your experience in this matter. I do want to go further. I think that moving Galanthus in (y)our own garden by dividing them up and spreading them, does restrict the risks. A possible explanation is that you lift (with the clump of bulbs that you move) also some soil. In it are lots of mycelia, bacteria and also some matter that could buffer against the circumstances at the new place where you replant the snowdrops. This way, much of the original circumstances of the soil is 'copied'. These mycelia can grow on fast when you've got almost the same pH at the new place. Only, when a bulb or a clump of Galanthus is out of the soil for quite some time, these mycelia die down, thus creating a minor situation for the bulb to re-establish. On the other hand, it could help that the growers provide some original 'crumbles' of soil together with cocopeat or some moss containing moisture.
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Any soil containing organic matter contains mycels and only if onee is using a lot of stronger soluble fertilizers there might be a loss. The inorganic composts used for cypripedium might be free from mycels but otherwise I think it is every where.
By having extreemly thin "roots" they make "thinks available" when they brake down organic ferilizers/materials. Having a bit of "old mycel" to put to the new soil is most likely not effective since there is most likely already something that is established and the little new one from different environment will have a hard time to establish and the plants that is potted will use the new mycel. I do not think that it needs to be a special mycel just any will due.
That is also the point that Malmgren has regarding terrestial orchids. They do not need special mycel as adults but will use what they find in "good garden soil".
I think there are scientific papers about the huge amount of mycel there is in forrest soil and a garden soil that gets a lot of compost and other organic fertilizers will most likely have that as well.
Having soil around the plants makes a "physical barrier" against drying out and hence harm to the finer roots.
I do not think we use pure potasium in Sweden either but some of the organic fertilizers have a lot of that.
I also presume that there is a lot of potassium in the ashes from the fire place. If one has not used wood that have been impregnated this can be used. I do not now the composition of wood ash compared to potash but that can be found if one is interested.
We add woodash to plants. I can not show any extreemly well growing plants as a proof of the effectness but is used quite a lot here in Sweden and Portugal.
Kind regards
Joakim
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Hi Valentin and everybody else of course.
To resume to the potash discussion I can add that being a dedicated follower of the bulb log - I went on a search last year to find potash and the closest I came was buying "Patentkali" from Osmo that contains 30 % of K2O and 10 % of MgO - both soluble in water.
I fed some to virtually all of my bulbs (no snowdrops alas) following Ians instruction and therefore waiting until the flowers had gone. It's still early days yet, but from what I could detect so far on Narcissus and Crocus, flowering seems to be much better. I hope to be posting some pix later on.
I keep my fingers crossed ;)
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Luc, why don't you use Patentkali for Snowdrops ???
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Hi Ian ,
Sorry - but I must again warm up this point .
We have here in Germany ( Thomas you can it cofirm ) not the possibility to buy "Sulfat of Potash ) -but today I have found may be a other possibilty - in markets for the farmers they sell here Patentkali ( or Thomas-Mehl ) -this fertilizer has a formula :30 % KČO , 10 % MgO , 17 % Sulfat - Ian- do you think we can use this for our bulbplants too ? -it is not a powder -this are little pearls. I have looked on your pics from bulb log - on your package of Sulfat ... is only visible : 46% KČO= 38,2 K - there is nothing written about MgO or Sulfat.
Any advices are welcome
Thank you
Hans
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Hi Thomas !
There's no secret about that : I don't grow any snowdrops so far.....
;)
But so far I'm quite happy with the patentkali on all other bulbs.
:)
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Great answer to Thomas, there, Luc! ;) ;D ;D
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Ahh yeah - seems like I have to read more carefully!
Thanks for waking me up ::)
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I know I'm a bit late, but congratualtions on the medal, really pleased for you both. I'm looking forward to hearing Ian on erythroniums when he ventures over the border in March - even taking time off work to be able to be there!
Sue
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No problem Thomas !
I know you dream about bulbs all the time - so you do have to sleep to be able to do so... I have every understanding ;D
Hope it wasn't to much of a rude awakening...lol.
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A few days ago, in his very interesting post, Valentin spoke about the importance of mycelia & bacteria in providing essential nutrition for snowdrops and suggested that when moving snowdrops 'in the green' moving some of the soil in which they had been growing (which contained their 'personal' mycelia/bacteria i.e. the mycelia/bacteria in which they had been growing) would help them to re-establish.
Joakim, whilst agreeing that mycelia/bacteria help strong/healthy growth, pointed out that most soils already contained these mycelia/bacteria & suggested that what is important therefore is to ensure that the new soil in which the 'in the green' snowdrop is planted should contain mycelia/bacteria.
Ian pointed out that if 'in the green' bulbs are treated very carefully they usually re-establish well.
I was thinking about my own experience with 'in the green' bulbs - I believe that the key factors are (1) digging them up carefully to minimise damage, both to the bulb and its roots (2) careful wrapping of the bulbs, taking particular care to ensure that the roots are kept moist and do not dry out (3) keeping to a minmum the amount of time that the bulbs are out of the ground.
When I exchange 'in the green' bulbs I lift the bulbs carefully, immediately wash off all soil from the roots, gently wrap the roots in paper towel & then wet this, put the snowdrop in a polythene bag, box it up and send it off the same day. I certainly have excellent results with bulbs received, that have been treated in this way, and understand that the bulbs that I send also re-establish well - the key point here is that all soil, and therefore the bulbs 'personal' mycelia/bacteria, is removed before the bulbs are sent.
This leads me to suggest that, whilst Valentin is right to stress the important nutritional contribution of mycelia/bacteria to the well being of the snowdrop, Joakim is right to point out that most soils already contain these mycelia/bacteria and that it is their presence in the soil that is important, not that the 'in the green' bulbs own 'personal' mycelia/bacteria is transported with them when the bulbs are moved.
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Hans, Thomas and all I have not heard of Patentkali before but I would suggest that this would be a good way to boost the potassium levels without adding any nitrogen. The additional ingredients of Magnesium and sulphur may also benefit the bulbs system without causing the excessive soft leaf and stem growth that nitrogen does.
On doing a bit of research into Patentkali I found the text below describing the advantage to the plant of these nutrients and I could not have put it better myself so I have copied them. They are worth reading because by understanding how the plants use the various elememnts means we are better able to provide for them.
Potash (Potassium)
Potassium derives its more common name of potash from the ancient discovery that ash from wood fires gathered in pots and applied to crops greatly enhanced the plants yield and vigour.
Potash is a major plant nutrient, often referred to as a macronutrient due to the large quantities which plants require for healthy growth. In fact the amount of potash required by many species is similar or greater to the requirement for Nitrogen.
Potash has many roles in a wide variety of processes in plants and animals but the principle functions can be summarised as follows.
Water balance in the plant (osmoregulation) Potash is required to maintain the water pressure in the plants transport systems and in the cells. In this way, potash also plays a vital role in ensuring that other nutrients are transported efficiently around the plant, particularly from roots to the leaves, fruits and seeds. If potash is deficient, this transport system is compromised, the plant is more likely to be damaged in times of water stress and less able to transport the products of photosynthesis.
Enzyme Activation.
Potash is required by many enzymes in the plant as a type of trigger. Enzymes are special substances in nature which control virtually all of the many reactions and chemical pathways that occur within living organisms.
Natural anti-freeze.
The specific chemical properties of potash mean that a solution of water containing Potassium has a lower freezing point and thus adequate potash in the plant effectively gives the plant some anti-freeze properties. This can be particularly important with non-extreme frosts often experienced in the UK when the temperature is around the zero mark.
For more detailed information on every aspect of potash use visit the Potash Development Association (PDA) website. The PDA is an independent organisation providing information, guidance and advice for anyone using potash and is widely considered to be the expert voice on use of this nutrient.
Magnesium
Magnesium is also a macronutrient due the relatively high plant requirement for this mineral.
Magnesium is an important plant nutrient as it forms the core of the chlorophyll molecule, the substance present in all green plants which traps energy from the sun and converts it into useful forms of energy that the plant can utilise. Magnesium also has many other specific roles in plants such as controlling enzyme reactions, helping to maintain the chemical balance in cells and has important roles in protein synthesis.
Some crops such as potatoes and sugar beet are particularly sensitive to a Magnesium deficiency and other crops too often show the classic symptoms of chlorosis on the fully expanded leaves, particularly along the leaf veins.
Magnesium is available in many forms which differ enormously in the solubility, spreadability and availability. Because the Magnesium in Patentkali is readily water soluble, you can be sure that it is available for the crop immediately and does not need a low pH (acid conditions) to dissolve as some other forms of Magnesium require.
Sulphur
Sulphur is required by all plants although the amount needed varies considerably between plant species. The Sulphur requirement of crops had in the past been largely met from atmospheric pollution arising from power stations. With a recent reduction in the number of these and more efficient cleaning methods of emissions, Sulphur deposition is currently only some 15% of the levels that were deposited in 1980. As a result, over the last two decades more and more people have realised that crops have shown a positive response to an application of Sulphur and now it is routinely applied to a large percentage of crops.
The principle role of Sulphur in plants is as a major component of some of the amino acids. These amino acids are the building blocks from which protein is made and therefore Sulphur nutrition is always associated with and linked to Nitrogen nutrition. In fact the ratio of N:S that most plants require is a very constant 12:1. Any less S and the N nutrition can be compromised. An excess of S however appears not to upset the balance and plants can regulate the quantity which they absorb.
The high level of Sulphur in Patentkali is present in the Sulphate form which is also the form that plants are able to absorb. No chemical transformation is required therefore and this important nutrient is available for immediate uptake.
I think I will get hold of some Patentkali and try it out for myself.
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Dear Ian ,
Many thanks for your long and interesting answer .
I'm glad that you think too we can use this fertilizer - here is only one problem with the dose of them .
One the package is written only the quantity in g/m2 for other plants p.e. :
vegetables : 60-80
potato : 100 -150
fruits : 100 -150
berry : 80 -100
grass : 25-35
But there is nothing written about bulbplants -what is your suggestion ?
I have tried to make a powder from this grains -but impossibly .
A other try could be to make a solution with water -but how much g per ltr.?
Any ideas are welcome !
Thank you
Hans
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It is difficult without seeing the material and the size of the grains but I would start to experiment by scattering a small pinch on to the top of a pot and watering over it.
Each time you water some more will go into solution and down to the bulb I do not think that you will cause any harm this way and you can always increase the amount you put on if you think that is necessary.
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Could the bigger size be an atempt to longer relese rather than direct with powder? Maybe it is ok to use the grains.
Just a thought
Joakim
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Hi Ian ,
Thank you
OK - I will test it , I think I will use ( for learnig the rigth dose ) a quantity of 35 gramm per m/2.
Best wishes
Hans
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Thanks Ian for that very useful information!!!
Will also try Patentkali on my plants.
If you can't get it in Scotland, contact me and
I will send you a package!
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Interesting discussion going on here ! Thanks everyone for contributing.
The patentkali I started using last year is in grains approximately the size of a rice grain. As I grow very little plants in pots, it was applied outside in the garden. I sprinkled 10 to 50 grains around the plants according to the size of the group. I noticed it had vanished after only a couple of rainy days - so it seems quite soluble.
So far I have not noticed any adverse effects, quite on the contrary.
A small group of Narcissus bulbocodium x mesatlanticus that had produced 2 or 3 flowers and quite some leaf in 2005 produced 7 flowers this year.
A group of crocus (don't recall the exact name at this moment... little grey cells a bit rusty this early in the morning) planted out some 10 years ago had been slowly loosing vigour and only produced 3 or 4 flowers last year. Now it's showing 10 or 12 buds at least.
This may not all be down to the patentkali (I also fed them some bonemeal in september as per the bulb despot's recipee... ;)) but it sure looks promising. I will be very anxious to find out how things develop as the season progresses.
I'm considering feeding some patentkali testwise to some of my Pleione this year to find out what the results are there.
I'll keep you posted.
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Okay, I have to make a confession (one of those mistakes I just had to make myself), since you mention potash burn. In a moment of pure lunacy, I decided to give a few pots of newly sprouted (a month old) fritillaria seedlings a "weak" feed of potash. I put a teaspoon of 0-0-53 in a gallon of water thinking this quite weak enough. Well, all the tips of the fritillaria seedlings browned halfway down the sprouts. the remaining green parts seem to be surviving these last few weeks. So how did your story end, Ian? Please tell the me seedlings survived to form small bulbs...
Also, a favorite topic would be a log devoted to the Himalayan bulbs including nomocharis, notholirion, lilium, fritillaria, etc. These seem like species adapted to your climate and, I hope, mine. Hopefully they bloom close enough together to log them up if you run short on topics.
Thanks
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I want to add to this theme that I am fertilizing with ' Patentkali ' since I noticed Ian's instructions in the bulb log. Outside I use it unchanged (granular) and for bulbs in pots I grind it with a pestle in a mortar. This gave excellent results. Narcissus elegans var. oxypetalus sown in 1989 and a daffidil hybrid (perhaps N. x tuckeri) from 1991 both flowered the first time for me last year. Now the hybrid shows strong buds again. Some other autumn flowering daffs (N. humilis/ N. x perezlarae) did not respond as expected. Now I try to improve flowering with artificial light during late autumn and winter.
Gerd Knoche
Germany
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Clay
I am afraid that the frit seedlings that I burnt with potassium did not survive as I damaged the roots before the bulb had formed. Well before it had reached a size to sustain it through dormancy but I did learn the lesson quickly. As your leaves are still partly green you have some hope that all is well below the ground.
Gerd good to learn that you have had good results using Patentkali, I look forward to hearing from others how they get on.
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Clay, you're not the only one making a mistake with potash!
I have bought some "Pottasche" here which looked exactly like
the white powder Ian uses, but after using it on crocus seedlings
they died completely. Later I found out, that the German Pottasche
is Kalium-Carbonium, while Ians Potash is Kalium-Sulphate.
Hope this confession will help other people to avoid this mistake!
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Thomas, this is valuable advice, especially for our friends in Germany ! Just goes to show how careful we should be with names; like using latin names for our plants so we can all understand what we have !!
It is a shame that you have lost some crocus babies, though.
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I guess we don't feed babies steaks, and we shouldn't feed fritillaria seedlings. I have heard "weak feeds", and "fresh water only" schools of thought from everything I've read re: fritillaria seedlings. I think I'll err on the side of caution and use water only, and rely on the fresh compost I plant seeds in (with a little bonemeal) for their first year's nutrition. I've read and re-read just about everything I can get my hands on regarding fritillaria culture (especially the bulb log!), and can't WAIT for the release of Janis Ruksan's new book with at least some sections on fritillaria.
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Hi all,
I have been reading with quite some interest the discussion going further on for using 'patentkali' or 'sulphate of potash' as a fertilizer on snowdrops. It is always very useful to add the scientific factor provided by firms. In this context, the (copied) text from Ian was a good recapitulation on the effects of three different elements, N(itogen)P(hosphor)K(alium).
The 'patentkali' I bought some days ago, contains 30% of K2O, 10 % MgO and 42% SO3. Now, I think that a chemical reaction of those ingredients will be following next scheme:
K2O + SO3 -> K2SO4 (yes, for the purists amongst you I did not match the coefficients to balance up the molecules....). The water in the soil will react with the SO3, forming H2SO4. This sulphuracid compounds with K (potash)
What I do want to say is that, according to this principle, the discussion on which source of kalium (patentkali or sulphate of potash) you do provide, doesn't matter at all. On the other hand, it maybe gives an explanation to the 'burning' effect of some compounds of potash.
However, what I do miss in the discussion going on, is the influence on the biological system in the soil after a long time using chemical fertilizers. I am convinced on the effects for our snowdrops (and other bulbs, Luc and Thomas) on the short term.
On the other hand, just watching the evolution in agriculture using far more chemical fertilizers on meadows, I do observe that there are no more mushrooms in these 'treated' meadows. No mushrooms means that are less mycelia in the soil.... this is surely an effect from the chemical fertilzers, not from pesticides....
This takes me back to the beginning of the story: using to much chemicals on your plants cannot (most probably)be beneficial to the plants on the long term.
And than, to enhance the discussion even more: we- galantophiles and most probably the other bulblovers too- do know exactly that some growers of snowdrops do sell plants that are forced with too much chemical stuff, I think especially too much nitrogen. These snowdrops (or other bulbs) do suffer in the following year after replanting, showing more than other Galanthus diseases like stagonospora curtisii.... Well, guys, what upon this duscussion? Experiences?
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I do refer to 'Snowdropman's' experience on exchanging Galanthus by copying :"When I exchange 'in the green' bulbs I lift the bulbs carefully, immediately wash off all soil from the roots, gently wrap the roots in paper towel & then wet this, put the snowdrop in a polythene bag, box it up and send it off the same day. I certainly have excellent results with bulbs received, that have been treated in this way, and understand that the bulbs that I send also re-establish well - the key point here is that all soil, and therefore the bulbs 'personal' mycelia/bacteria, is removed before the bulbs are sent."
Chris, I do hope that every grower does handle his snowdrops this way before sending them out, but I am sure that it is not the case with commercial growers.... In the past I often received plants that were not fresh anymore, being too long out of the soil. The leafs completely faded, the bulb being not firm... We all know some growers that are dealing this way even when selling very expensive, rare bulbs. See also above my remarks on 'feeding too much nitrogen'...;
After I have unpacked my (new bought/exchanged) snowdrops, I always give them a good bath/soak in fresh water for some 6-12 hours. This way they can fill up again their water supply and restore the 'tension' ( correct English?) of water in the cells of the root tips, and bulb itself. This should promote regrowth....maybe. Last year I attended a (good) lecture on this item. Someone (Wim Postuma) dug out a (big) clump of Galanthus elwesii and replanted it per 2. He dug out a different little group of two-three bulbs every week, looking at the root activity. There was no single regrowth activity of the roots. These roots did not grow on, no new roots being formed.... They just seemed to 'vegetate'....
Is this again a plea for exchanging/selling/buying plants as dormant bulbs or isn't it?
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I see some Galanthus nursery advertisements in my new (December) AGS Bulletin. All saying they supply bulbs "in the green." It is my opinion that the "must lift and replant in the green" is an old wives' tale which has been perpetuated over the years, with no good evidence or reason for its continuation. It is quite un-natural to lift bulbs when they are in full growth. None that I planted in the green (except from bulbs in growth in their own individual pots) grew or flourished so well as those planted as dormant bulbs. Even those lifted and replanted right away, within my own garden, suffered somewhat.
I think all committed snowdrop growers should be insisting that their bulbs are bought either potted and growing in the pots or dormant. The nurseries may then get the message that they are doing growers - and the bulbs - no favours at all by selling/suplying "in the green."
Just as a footnote, there are some of us in other countries who are able to import snowdrops from time to time, but in the green - no way. All such imported bulbs MUST be dormant.
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The 'patentkali' I bought some days ago, contains 30% of K2O, 10 % MgO and 42% SO3. Now, I think that a chemical reaction of those ingredients will be following next scheme:
K2O + SO3 -> K2SO4 (yes, for the purists amongst you I did not match the coefficients to balance up the molecules....). The water in the soil will react with the SO3, forming H2SO4. This sulphuracid compounds with K (potash)
The list of chemicals in the 'Patentkali' surely just indicates the ions present but not the associations? K2SO4 would be preferable to H2SO4.
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I have been reading with quite some interest the discussion going further on for using 'patentkali' or 'sulphate of potash' as a fertilizer on snowdrops....However, what I do miss in the discussion going on, is the influence on the biological system in the soil after a long time using chemical fertilizers.
Valentin raises the possibility here that whilst the short term benefits of using Potash are accepted - the longer term effects may be negative.
Here in the UK we have a long tradition of using Potash in the garden, both on flowers & vegetables, to improve performance. One might assume therefore that, if the long term effects were negative then this would also be well understood in the UK by now. But perhaps not because the emphasis, in its use on flowers & vegetables, is mostly about the next crop i.e. the short term.
As both a long term advocate of the use of Potash on bulbs, and a long term user of same, I wonder if Ian might feel able to comment further on his experiences?
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I would imagine that Ian will likely make some response in a future Bulb Log.
I will make one observation now:
Chris says:But perhaps not because the emphasis, in its use on flowers & vegetables, is mostly about the next crop i.e. the short term.
Yes, there is a long history of potash use in the UK, but not exclusively on plants with a short term existence, it has been used also to promote flowering in shrubs, for example and perennials: I remember my late Grandfather making good use of it in that way over my lifetime, and I don't imagine he only started using potash when I was born, nor that he was the only person doing so. I am inlcined to think that long term damage would have been in evidence by now.
Also, going back to Valentin's words :
On the other hand, just watching the evolution in agriculture using far more chemical fertilizers on meadows, I do observe that there are no more mushrooms in these 'treated' meadows. No mushrooms means that are less mycelia in the soil.... this is surely an effect from the chemical fertilzers, not from pesticides....
Is it not the fact that farmers use fungicides on their crops? Would that not be a bigger factor to the decrease in mushroom growth than the other chemicals mentioned?
I would be happier if everyone, farmers and gardeners alike, in fact everyone in everyday life, used fewer chemicals and noxious substances but, like most things, a balance of use of some things in moderation is probably the best way.