Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: Cod on March 03, 2021, 05:57:03 PM
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Local churchyard yellow
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Garden center woronowii
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Another garden centre woronowii sorry about the multiple posts I haven’t quite got it yet
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These are excellent finds of G. woronowii, Cod! This year, there is little chance to find any special snowdrop in a garden centre, as they are closed due to the epidemic now.
´Orwell Green Tip´had become rare in its country of origin.
(https://up.picr.de/40669817ci.jpg)
Are the continental finds of "yellow" Galanthus nivalis also called sandersii? ´Rheingold´may be the first one named in Germany.
(https://up.picr.de/40669821ne.jpg)
Named by the same collector: ´Feodora´
(https://up.picr.de/40669820ih.jpg)
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Mariette your yellows are beautiful, a more experience forum member may put them in a group.? I shall keep my fingers crossed for my finds for the coming years.
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What are the best galanthus species to grow in a climate of wet winters, no snow and very hot dry summers?
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Local churchyard yellow
Are you in Northumberland like me?
Garden center woronowii
In which case you must tell me which garden centre you are visiting to find such special woronowiis.
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...This year, there is little chance to find any special snowdrop in a garden centre, as they are closed due to the epidemic now.
Garden centres were closed at the start of our first lockdown but it was quickly realised that they are as essential to the fabric of our society as grocery stores and have remained open ever since.
Are the continental finds of "yellow" Galanthus nivalis also called sandersii? ´Rheingold´may be the first one named in Germany.
Mr Sanders of Cambridge is long gone but he still gets the credit for all examples of a basic yellow nivalis, on the basis that although you can give individual finds a name you cannot really tell then apart. I inherited three little clumps growing in my garden, let alone the thousands that must be growing hereabouts. I take it 'Rheingold' predates the Engelmann era?
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Hi Alan I live in Kent near the bordef to East Sussex where the yellows are.
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Hi Cod, Northumberland is well-known for its yellows (albeit only present in a tiny minority). I had not realised there was another pocket of them in your locale. Up here, everywhere that I have visited it's nivalis and nothing but. I suspect in your area you have more chance of finding a hybrid between a yellow nivalis and another species. And you clearly have some excellent garden centres.
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Garden centres were closed at the start of our first lockdown but it was quickly realised that they are as essential to the fabric of our society as grocery stores and have remained open ever since.
Mr Sanders of Cambridge is long gone but he still gets the credit for all examples of a basic yellow nivalis, on the basis that although you can give individual finds a name you cannot really tell then apart. I inherited three little clumps growing in my garden, let alone the thousands that must be growing hereabouts. I take it 'Rheingold' predates the Engelmann era?
I don´t know when the Engelmann era started, but ´Feodora´and ´Rheingold´were named by Nicolas Top in the nineties. He is or was a Belgian living and working in Germany and hunting for snowdrops in an area along the Rhine. His collection was grown by friends, too, in case he might loose it. A wise decision, as it turned out.
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.... A wise decision, as it turned out.
Please continue, Mariette. I am tantalised and would love to hear the end of the story.
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Well, I´m not the author of the story. ;) At least I learnt from his friends that he lost his collection or part of it and that they restored the lost cultivars to him. :)
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(https://i.imgur.com/nKyWd61.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/wTSAAdY.jpg)
Galanthus nivalis Unnamed
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It is nice to see snowdrop flowers in pictures:).
Here last week was warm (+6C) many days, and snow had started to melt fast, but there is so much that most of the garden is still under it. Which is good, because next week is going to be cold again, below zero all the time, and right now it is snowing more.
The earliest snowdrops are pushing through snow into the light in places where the snow has melted most.
'Mrs Macnamara' is one of the first ones here, and it is a very hardy snowdrop in my experience. I love it how they warm (?) the snow around them to make a little tunnel to come up.
'Little Magnet' looks so sturdy and nice coming up.
In 2015 I sowed G.trojanus, and they germinated in 2017. Now they are starting to flower, and seem to be quite early snowdrops. I don't know yet how they cope with very cold temperatures, so after taking this picture I put more dry leaves around them for protection for the coming cold.
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Near Kiev, Dima (Dimitri) Zubov has these species coming into flower through the cold ground....
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Galanthus alpinus, ex Ajara, W Transcaucasia, Sakartvelo
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Galanthus alpinus, ex Borjomi, C Caucasus, Sakartvelo, ex Ajara, W Transcaucasia, Sakartvelo
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Galanthus alpinus, ex Stavropol Kraj, W Ciscaucasia (N Caucasus), S Russia
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Galanthus angustifolius, ex Nalchik, Kabardino-Balkaria, N Caucasus, S Russia
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Galanthus gracilis, ex Samos island, E Aegean, Greece
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more.....
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Galanthus graecus, ex Edirne Province, NW Turkey
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Galanthus graecus, ex Odessa district, Bessarabian Upland, S Ukraine
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Galanthus lagodechianus, ex Quba district, E Caucasus, N Azerbaijan
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Galanthus nivalis, ex Catalonia, Iberian Peninsula, E Spain
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Galanthus plicatus subsp. byzantinus, ex Bursa Province, W Turkey
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few more from DZ....
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Galanthus koenenianus, ex Gümüşhane Province, NE Turkey
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Galanthus rizehensis, ex Ajara, W Transcaucasia, Sakartvelo
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Galanthus trojanus, ex Çanakkale Province, W Turkey
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last three from DZ ....... Thank you, Dima!!
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Galanthus transcaucasicus, ex Jalilabad district, Talysh, S Azerbaijan - the easternmost species, because the southernmost is G. fosteri, not yet emerged here.
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Galanthus transcaucasicus, ex Olang Pass, Golestan Province, NE Iran
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Galanthus worowonii, ex Ajara, W Transcaucasia, Sakartvelo
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Interesting to see different species and how different the leaves are. Thank you Maggi and Dima:).
My seed grown G.trojanus looks just like the one in the picture above so I'm glad to see it is a right species.
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Some more photos from Dima Zubov's collection ... "From March 8, another serving of milk flower spring, despite the freezing weather"
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Galanthus alpinus ex Ajara, W Transcaucasia, Sakartvelo
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Galanthus alpinus var. bortkewitschianus, ex Kabardino-Balkarya, N Caucasus, Russia
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Galanthus alpinus, ex Karachaevo-Cherkessia, W Caucasus, Russia
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Galanthus gracilis ex Bursa Province NW Turkey
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Galanthus gracilis ex Edirne Province NW Turkey
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next batch ....
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Galanthus graecus ex Odessa district Bessarabian Upland S Ukraine
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Galanthus ikariae subsp. snogerupii ex Andros island the Cyclades, Greece
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Galanthus lagodechianus (G. cabardensis), ex Kabardino-Balkarya, Baksan valley, С Caucasus, Russia
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Galanthus lagodechianus (G. artjuschenkoae), ex Zangezur Range, Syunik Province, SE Armenia
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also.....
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Galanthus nivalis cfr samothracicus ex Black Sea coast, Bulgaria (2)
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Galanthus nivalis cfr samothracicus ex Black Sea coast, Bulgaria
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Galanthus nivalis ex Pindus Mountains, Greece
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Galanthus nivalis, ex Ivano-Frankivsk region, Eastern Carpathians, W Ukraine - Central and south-eastern Europe clade of G. nivalis by Ronsted et al., 2016
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Galanthus nivalis, ex Kyiv region, Dnieper Upland, C Ukraine - Central and south-eastern Europe clade of G. nivalis by Ronsted et al., 2016
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next .....
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Galanthus nivalis, ex Province of Barcelona, Catalonia, Iberian Peninsula, E Spain
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Galanthus nivalis, ex the Gargano Promontory, province of Foggia, Apulia, S Italy; quite interesting snowdrop being morphologically just as G. reginae-olgae subsp. vernalis but by ITS nuclear sequences it fits fully to G. nivalis W Europe subclade
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Galanthus plicatus subsp. plicatus, Crimea, Ukraine
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Galanthus samothracicus ex Athos Mt., Chalkidiki, Greece
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Galanthus samothracicus ex Chavrias riversides, Chalkidiki, Greece
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last from Dima ...
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Galanthus transcaucasicus ex Assalem Pass, Gilan Province, Talysh, NW Iran
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Galanthus woronowii; a rocky form ex Adler's rocky ledges, W Transcaucasia, S Russia
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quite interesting natural hybrid ex Artvin Province, NE Turkey- it fits to G. koenenianus by ITS nuclear DNA and to G. woronowii by cpDNA
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the miniature Galanthus graecus ex oak forests of Alexandroupolis - East Macedonia and Thrace NE Greece
Thanks again, Dima!
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quite interesting natural hybrid ex Artvin Province, NE Turkey- it fits to G. koenenianus by ITS nuclear DNA and to G. woronowii by cpDNA
Its what and its what? I am very glad that somebody is looking a the DNA of snowdrops but I had no idea there were two kinds, or is it two places to look. Where should I look for an explanation?
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What are the best galanthus species to grow in a climate of wet winters, no snow and very hot dry summers?
Galanthus elwesii!
cheers
fermi
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Its what and its what? I am very glad that somebody is looking a the DNA of snowdrops but I had no idea there were two kinds, or is it two places to look. Where should I look for an explanation?
I asked Dima, who said ..... "Hi Maggi, it means a natural hybrid with possible parentage of koenenianus (male) x woronowii (female) "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_DNA
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/nuclear-dna
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/chloroplast-dna
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroplast_DNA
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Video of some special snowdrops with Lady Catherine Erskine of Cambo .....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGYIbTA6X0w
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This one appeared among some normal ones in the garden. It has 4+4 tepals.
[attachimg=1]
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Some more photos from Dima Zubov's collection ...
Really nice to see so many species from numerous named locations :D It's good to know they are in cultivation. Just a shame we don't have many known origin species easily available over here :'(
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Galanthus elwesii is a monster of a snowdrop for me both vigorous and tall. Clumps up nicely too. This is the third house I've had it at and it seems pretty unkillable.
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Try again
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Galanthus elwesii
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Seed ex. 'Spindlestone Surprise' sown 5/2017 shows it's first flower. Not really similar to the mother ...
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Not similar, but a yellow snowdrop and a big inner yellow mark! I had four seeds from SS last year and they have germinated now, I hope some of them will be yellow, too.
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A late flowering unnamed Nivalis which came from Jose Bavcon, Botanic Garden in Ljubljana. Opened today in the early spring Scottish sunshine ☀️ [attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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Last to flower here in Aberdeenshire though a lot of the others are still looking good.
Galanthus platyphyllus hasn't been doing well recently. I think the warm dry springs we've been having do not suit it. Only one flower from 7 bulbs this year.
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Galanthus platyphyllus hasn't been doing well recently. I think the warm dry springs we've been having do not suit it. Only one flower from 7 bulbs this year.
They say it likes to be under snow in winter then very wet as the snow melts. Can you give it those conditions? I saw some that had been washed down from higher up and were growing near the side of a river; they must get submerged from time to time.
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I asked Dima, who said ..... "Hi Maggi, it means a natural hybrid with possible parentage of koenenianus (male) x woronowii (female) "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_DNA
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/nuclear-dna
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/chloroplast-dna
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroplast_DNA
Please pardon any teaching of egg-sucking.
Two plant organelles, the chloroplast (plastid) and mitochondrion, have their own genomes (DNA). These are uniparentally (maternally) inherited and have low levels of recombination. The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of plants is rather slow evolving, and isn't used much. But plastid DNA (cpDNA) is widely used for phylogenetic investigations. If the section of cpDNA selected has sufficient resolution, i.e. evolves fast enough, you can identify the female parent. There is one hazard - chloroplast capture. If there is repeated backcrossing you can end up with a population where the nuclear genome is nearly all of one species, but the plastid genome comes from another species. For example, there is a cotton species from the east side of the Gulf of California where one coastal population has the cpDNA and around 3% of the nuclear genome of a species from Baja California.
Both organelles, and the cytoplasm, have ribosomes, which are protein/RNA complexes involved in protein synthesis. The RNA component (3 different RNAs) are therefore called ribosomal RNA (rRNA). Cytoplasmic ribosomes incorporate RNA transcribed from the nuclear genome, and are therefore nuclear ribosomal RNA (nrRNA). The corresponding DNA exists as tandem arrays composed of several parts - the 3 RNA genes, and the internal transcribed (ITS), external transcribed (ETS), and non-transcribed (NTS) spacers. ITS is under low functional constraint, and therefore evolves relatively fast, and also, like cpDNA, occurs as multiple copies per cell, making it easier to sequence, and is therefore widely used for phylogenetic analysis. The nrDNA arrays undergo concerted evolution, which is a process that homogenises the sequence between repeats. It is biparentally inherited. Thus in a primary hybrid, you would find sequences from both parents. In a hybridogenic population, concerted evolution means that either one of the parental forms, or a recombinant form, wins out. If you find a sequence that matches that of a species other than the seed parent it's a fair bet that comes from the pollen parent, giving you the parentage of a hybrid. (If you don't you either have to try again in the hope of picking up the other variant, or try other nuclear loci.) There's the possibility of a problem analogous to chloroplast capture, whereby the nrDNA of species A gets introgressed into species B.
You can look to morphology, phenology, ecology, and biogeography for supporting (or otherwise) evidence for the inferred parentage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribosomal_DNA
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Hi Alan, lavateraguy has provided a detailed explantion. One key point however is that chloroplast and mitochondrial DNA is inherited from the seed parent, whereas nuclear DNA is inherited from both the pollen and the seed parent - hence you can do some genetic detective work by comparing what the nuclear DNA is telling you and what the chloroplast DNA is telling you. At a basic level this could be the seed parent of a hybrid, but it could also be that gene flow in populations is mostly by pollen transfer and not seed, or that a new species evolved by hybridisation and which species were the parents.
Hope this helps. There is a lot of jargon in genetics (nearly as much as in botany).
By the way those snowdrops of Dima's are stunning. Thanks for posting Maggi.
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I found all the posts on DNA highly educational. I don't know how to suck eggs either.
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They say it likes to be under snow in winter then very wet as the snow melts. Can you give it those conditions? I saw some that had been washed down from higher up and were growing near the side of a river; they must get submerged from time to time.
No, Alan. I cannot give G. platyphyllus ideal conditions but it has survived in this garden for over 30 years. Conditions have changed in that time. We used to get more snow and colder winters (not every year) and the other snowdrops were mostly over before G. platyphyllus appeared.. I think the leaves got frosted last year. This year they were under snow for over a week so were protected from a few cold nights -7 then -14 then-5. The leaves look quite healthy this year so hopefully more flowers next year. I brought 2 bulbs back from Krestovy Pass on the Georgian Military Highway in 1979. In June they were in full leaf and almost as big as the Colchicums they were growing with. One bulb was planted at the Cruickshank Botanic Garden in Aberdeen. I t was still there when I retired but has since disappeared.
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Can anyone identify this snowdrop. It appeared where I used to grow Erway which I lost. I don't remember planting any other snowdrops in the same area. Could it be a seedling from Erway. It flowers from early March onwards.
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G.platyphyllus seems like a snowdrop to appreciate a lot of snow. I bought seeds of it in 2019, no germination last spring, and no this year, not at least so far. I hope they are only slow to germinate, but it could also be that they were too dry when I got them:(.
Snow has now started to melt here, and my earliest spot is now without snow (but ground still frozen). Some years ago I divided my G.lagodechianus, and planted few to this early spot (the original bulbs are still under a lot of snow). Here they were coming up yesterday:).
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Can anyone identify this snowdrop. It appeared where I used to grow Erway which I lost. I don't remember planting any other snowdrops in the same area. Could it be a seedling from Erway. It flowers from early March onwards.
Judging by the leaves, what you have there is Galanthus plicatus. I don't grow 'Erway' but I understand that it is a hybrid so possibly crossed with a plicatus it could give rise to a seedling snowdrop that still looks like a plicatus.
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In just two days time some new snowdrops are emerging from snow.
The first one is another G.lagodechianus, bought two years ago from Augis and it is from Armenia. It already flowered last year, but this year it will be better to compare with the other G.lagodechianus I have (albeit in a different bed in the garden).
'Gerard Parker' is also already flowering when the snow melts around it.
'Hippolyta' in the third picture.
I'm most excited about this snowdrop in the last picture. It is a self sown seedling of 'E.A.Bowles', and flowering for the first time now. It may be that it is nothing special, but I'll see when the flower opens:).
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'Lady Elphinstone' today. :) Planted 2013 and I have already once divided it in 2017. Thank you Gail!
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You're welcome Leena. Lovely photo and I'm glad to see she is not green!
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Lovely photo and I'm glad to see she is not green!
I have been happy that she has been yellow all the time:). Soil is slightly acid I think, and sandy with added humus every year.
Such a nice sturdy little snowdrop!
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Galanthus elwesii 'Fireside Find' is very promising and showing vigour here. G. 'Primrose Warburg' has finally decided to settle down and offset; my third or fourth attempt in 20 years.
johnw
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Such a sunny picture of 'Primrose Warburg':).
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Galanthus elwesii 'Fireside Find' is very promising and showing vigour here.
Inversely poculiform elwesiis are very rare indeed. I can only think of one other with a name, 'The Groom', (which Richard Bashford seems to be bulking-up https://www.rbsnowdrops.co.uk/gallery , or maybe not; there is only one in the picture). What's the origin story, John? I presume this was a bonfire? Is it one of Cal Palmateer's?
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G. elwesii 'Fireside Find' was found near the Fireside Grill near Victoria, BC by friend Carol Dancer. The Grill has a vast area of naturalized elwesiis & a number of good seedlings have been found there.
johnw
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More Galanthus nivalis from different areas - grown and photographed by Dimitri Zubov.....
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Galanthus nivalis, Bulgarian Black Sea Coast, Burgas, Thrace, Bulgaria
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Galanthus nivalis, Dnieper Upland, Cherkassy region, Ukraine 2
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Galanthus nivalis, Dnieper Upland, Cherkassy region, Ukraine
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Galanthus nivalis, Dnieper Upland, Kyiv region, Ukraine 3
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next batch.....
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Galanthus nivalis, Dnieper Upland, Kyiv region, Ukraine
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Galanthus nivalis, Eastern Carpathians, Ivano-Frankivsk region, Ukraine
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Galanthus nivalis, Iberian Peninsula, Barcelona, Spain 2
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Galanthus nivalis, Iberian Peninsula, Barcelona, Spain
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next.....
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Galanthus nivalis, Iberian Peninsula, Valencia, Penyagolosa Mt., Spain
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Galanthus nivalis, Pindus Mnts, Greece
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Galanthus nivalis, Podolsk Upland, Khmelnitsky region, Ukraine
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Galanthus nivalis, Strandscha, Kyrklareli, Turkey-in-Europe
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last of this batch from Dr Zubov....
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Galanthus samothracicus, Chalkidiki, Greece
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Galanthus samothracicus, Samothrace Island, Greece
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G. elwesii 'Fireside Find' was found near the Fireside Grill near Victoria, BC by friend Carol Dancer. The Grill has a vast area of naturalized elwesiis & a number of good seedlings have been found there.
johnw
https://www.firesidegrill.com/ ??
Hitherto the problem with 'The Groom' has been that it would not chip/twin scale so it remains extremely rare in cultivation. Do you know if anyone has tried this with 'Fireside Find'?
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a few more snowdrops from the Ukrainian garden of Dimitri Zubov ...
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'Fieldgate Imp'
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'Pieces of Eight'
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Galanthus graecus, Ukraine
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Galanthus gracilis, Bursa, W Turkey
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Galanthus graecus ' Greenzzly' Ukraine
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https://www.firesidegrill.com/ ??
Hitherto the problem with 'The Groom' has been that it would not chip/twin scale so it remains extremely rare in cultivation. Do you know if anyone has tried this with 'Fireside Find'?
I haven't just letting it grow naturally.
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Some snowdrops from my garden.
'Gerard Parker' two days ago, and today all the snow has melted around it.
'Copton Trym'
G.trojanus grown from seed
Poculiform G.nivalis I got last summer:)
In the last picture is a tiny snowdrop called Tuuliku 8. It was bought ten years ago from Sulev Savisaar, who had gotten some of Taavi Tuuliks snowdrops.
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Leena, Your G. trojanus is a very fine clone! And I like Your tiny Tuuliku 8!
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a few more snowdrops from the Ukrainian garden of Dimitri Zubov ...
(Attachment Link)
Galanthus graecus, Ukraine
(Attachment Link)
Galanthus gracilis, Bursa, W Turkey
Thank You for showing Dima´s pics, Maggi! These two are really adorable!
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Leena, Your G. trojanus is a very fine clone! And I like Your tiny Tuuliku 8!
Thank you Mariette. :)
Tuuliku 8 is very tiny, but the colour is different from other yellows I have, so I like it, too.
G.trojanus is grown from Holubeck seeds sown in December 2015, and three seeds germinated.
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Some pictures from Spring 2021. At some point, going to have mixed meadow of Spring flowers in my lower woods. They do look great growing together. Seeds that I had collected.
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That's an excellent crop of Galanthus seed, Guff - your lovely bulb garden is destined for even greater things!
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Maggi, thanks.
Years ago, started out with maybe 15 Snowdrop seed pods, that were collected and planted on. Each year I would start a new bed with the seeds that were collected. Now I'm getting to the point, where I can make some real progress on a mixed Spring meadow.
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It amazes me as to what can be achieved with focus and dedication, and of course the right climatic conditions and location.
Must be satisfying to gaze across a field of snow drops that you have generated from such small numbers.
Are you seeing any variations popping up with successive generations?
Jeff
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Jeff, thanks.
There are some that look different, but not sure how unique they are.
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