Bulb Log 15 9/4/08

[ashley]

More wonderful plants, Ian, and beautifully photographed.  I particularly like Arthur's muscari and Frits forbesi and yuminensis - superb. 

Regarding propagation from seed rather than vegetatively, of course for plants rare in cultivation it's an ideal way to increase stocks, variability and vigour or to get rid of viral infections.  However genetic drift is almost inevitable, so successive generations adapt to captivity but thereby become less representative of the wild species.  Because we gardeners are often attracted to the unusual - and therefore unrepresentative - anyway, this drift probably doesn't matter much unless reintroductions to the wild were ever to be considered.

[mark smyth]

oops!

[Anthony Darby]

Mark, it looks nothing like Puschkinia libanotica.

[mark smyth]

OH yes silly me, very tired and ready for bed.

[Maggi Young]

I don't think it is a Puschkinia, Mark.
Today Ian and I were discussing the fact that we both have severe difficulties in telling  Scillas from Chionodoxa, Puschkinia , Chionoscilla, the smaller Muscari from Hyacinthellas, etc!  
No two ways about it, these are plants that we get thoroughly mixed up about.  I would have thought the plant Ian calls Muscari libanoticum is more likely a Hyacinth/hyacinthella, because the mouths of the bells are not constricted, though this may be a too simplistic argument!
As to the others, with the"plainer" species, then   Scilla puschkinioides, Puschkinia scilloides and then all those Chionoscillas, etc etc etc.... haven't a clue!
As the now slumbering despot admits in  the Log,
/

The one problem I have is I have terrible trouble naming them - well if I tell the truth I have not studied the taxonomy that closely so I tend to stick with the names I got them (as)

 

[Ian Y]

Ashley thank you for your kind words re the bulb log.
Arthur's muscari is a real wee beauty with a stunning colour effect which changes as the flowers mature.

You are absolutely correct about the genetic drift when repeatedly raising from seed but there is the advantage of selecting the ones most situated to your own growing conditions and seedlings will always preserve a wider range than clonal propagation.

I do always keep the widest range of seedlings and resist the temptation to only keep the ones that are visually pleasing to me - if I get a good form I will clone it out but I always also keep all the siblings as well.

I learnt that lesson long ago when I grew more alpines from seed. One day while I was sat pricking out I realised that when I had a good germination and had many more seedlings than I needed my tendency was to prick out the larger stronger growing ones that were easier to handle.
Then I realised how stupid that was because the end product I wanted was as tight and neat an alpine as I could get - these were probably the seedlings that I was discarding.

From that moment if I do have more seedlings than I can cope with I always prick out a selection that represents the full range of size and forms.
When you think this through I bet that pricking out the larger easier to handle seedlings is common practice and almost certainly contributes along with the obvious environmental conditions to most alpines never looking quite as compact as they do in the wild.

With bulbs I tend to grow them all on as they do not need pricked out into individual.

It is me that is drifting now but I do agree with Ashley that it is vital that we keep as wide a genetic range as we can - it may after all be the ugly flower that has the gene that is resistant to fungal attacks.

Finally I must own up to another slip it is Hyacinthella libanotica that I show not Muscari 

[Ed Alverson]

Another factor that I try to consider when growing seedlings from successive generations of garden plants is the need on the part of some plants for cross-pollination.  Many plants with large showy flowers are self-incompatible, which is why a single plant of a particular species, when growing in isolation, may not produce fruits or seeds, even if hand pollinated.  Even if self-pollinated plants will successfully produce seeds that germinate and grow, the possibility of homozygous deleterious recessive alleles (my apologies for the genetics) means that the progeny may not grow as well or as vigorously as their parents.  So, when possible, I try to accomplish hand pollination by taking pollen from a separate plant to place on the stigma of the plant to be pollinated.  Of course, when dealing with plants that also increase vegetatively, it is not just separate plants you would want to be crossing, but separate clones.

Ed

[Gerry Webster]

Ed - true enough. But you might also get plants which are homozygous for beneficial recessive alleles. It is impossible to predict.

[Maggi Young]

homozygous deleterious recessive alleles   /       homozygous for beneficial recessive alleles

Crikey, I feel like I'm listening to an episode of  a CSI TV show!! Always did wonder ( ever since the OJ Simpson trial)  how to spell "alleles" ! 

[Jim McKenney]

There is another possibility. If the seeds are produced by apomyxis, then any seedlings in effect form a clone with the maternal parent. It’s a case of a clone propagating itself via seed. There are no new genetic combinations involved, and thus no new deleterious or advantageous combinations: it's a continuation of the existing scheme. 

[Ed Alverson]

homozygous deleterious recessive alleles   /       homozygous for beneficial recessive alleles

Crikey, I feel like I'm listening to an episode of  a CSI TV show!! Always did wonder ( ever since the OJ Simpson trial)  how to spell "alleles" ! 

I was going to also say something about "genetic load", but I think I'll leave it at that...

Ed

[Maggi Young]

Go ahead, Ed, say it.... not everyone is a daft as I am! 

[johnw]

Ian - What is the ericacaeous (?) plant in your 9 April 2008 shot of Fritillaria imperialis? A tender Vaccinium?

johnw

[Maggi Young]

Eagle-eyes, John! It is Vaccinium nummularioides ...not at all tender. 
We're off to the BBC now, will post some pix later ...

[Lvandelft]

Ian, I was told today that your Muscari spec. from Turkey is M. anatolicum.
With regards from Sjaak ( and me)